The Love Witch with Alyssa Onofreo

I just thinking too binary about our media? Sounds to me like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy bike podcast gotten or should I say the pod triarchy? Wow? How about that? It's true? It's true. It makes you think, it makes you think. I hope, I hope Jack is listening to this because we've been brainwashed by the patriarch a k a. Jacob Bryan with little devil ears on top of him. Oh my gosh. Well that was what

I had for the intro. I was I was like, maybe we'll start debating, like Trisian Elaine being like, I don't know, I don't care if my podcast co host feels pleasure, and then I would be like, but you have to bring your podcast co host pleasure. That's our that's why I was put on this earth, Jamie, I want you to feel all the pleasure that you want to feel. Now it sounds like work for me, and I don't want to do it. Well, we already have

a lively debate going Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show about movies in which we look at them through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point. There's a lot more to discuss, but we kick it off. Actually we end the episode on the Bechdel test, so what are we talking? And then sometimes we don't even remember to do it.

As as we've said multiple times, it's so fun to like, and not in a way that it's got your ass, but in a way that you're like, oh, okay, just like you know how people will tell like simple social wise before, like oh I love your pig whatever, you know, But when someone says that about the Becktel Cast and then they're like, yeah, that's such a cool idea figuring out if movies past the Bechdel test, I was like, oh,

so you have not actually have not actually listened. And then I go to their little cabin upstate and I kill them because they fall in love with me so

hard that they die. Yeah, and then you piston ship and put your tampons in a jar, and then there's voice over about like, this is actually really cool that I'm doing this, and I did that was one of my favorite parts when she's doing like the grossest thing I can think of, and then there's a voiceover that's like, actually, this is people need to chill out about the fact that I'm putting my pisth and ship in a jar. And I'm like, wow, makes you think, makes you think? Yeah?

So what is the Bechtel Test? Though? Oh yeah, okay, So the Bechtel Test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. There's many versions of the test, but the version we use is that a piece of media should feature at least one exchange between two people of a marginalized gender with names, and they must speak to each other about something other than a man, and for our purposes, it

has to be a meaningful exchange. I won't even get into it too much, because this movie passes pretty handily. I feel like we don't need to like split, maybe not as handily as I would have expected it does, but like, yeah, okay, Caitlin is gonna be hard on. It's gonna be Caitlin did not like the movie. I don't know how I feel about the movie. I'm in

too chaotic a headspace. But that is why we bring a guest on, because we don't know shit about ship at times, and I feel like in the horror genre, we that is, that's where we've been, that's where we're at, and so we have to bring on extra special experts in the genre to explain to us what the funk is going on. So let's bring guests. I love this movie. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Unemasginedly love this movie.

I've seen it definitely more than six times. I was trying to count last night when I watched it this past time. So at least six maybe minimum, tin maybe like at least in Yeah, I don't know. Okay, Well, okay, so the voice you just heard is that of director of social Media at Crypt TV, where there's an there's a new show coming out this fall called Girl in

the Woods. It's streaming on Peacock TV. It was co executive produced by our guest from last week's episode, Jasmine Johnson, so be sure to check out The Girl in the Woods. This week's guest is Alyssa and not Freyo. Hello, Welcome, Welcome, Thank you so much for having me. A big fan of the longtime listener. Yay, thanks, thanks for coming on.

We're so stoked to have you. And we're like because you're you and also because you know so much about horror, and as we were just alluding to, it's not a genre either of us have a huge history with so before so we're covering the Love which at twenty sixteen movie. And so Alyssa, let's start by just talking about like your history with horror, because I'm interested in, like what draws you to the genre, what got you in, and then we'll kind of get into the movie. So, growing up,

I was not into horror. I was Disney movies only childhood, Like my parents did not allow anything beyond that. And uh, I think I saw The Shining in college, which I really liked. But my foreign of horror experience was my freshman year of high school. At a boy girls sleepover, they played Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the remake, and it was the scariest fucking thing that's ever happened to me, and it was Yeah, it was horrible. I was like, I

never want to see another horror movie again. That was horrible. And also everyone was pranking each other all night, so it was like extra spooky. So I saw I swaw off horror for a while. And then college, I liked the Shining that I took a class where I had to watch The Ring. Walked out of that screening straight up,

was like, no, this is too scary. I saw The Ring probably I don't remember when that movie came out, but I saw it at my cousin's house shortly after it came out, and I like pissed myself and had to go home. That movie is very scary. It's so scary. I can't watch that. I have not gone back to Texas Chansaw. I tried to watch the seventies one. I'm still like, it's not about it. It's too scary. It's

just like, yeah, trauma, memory's scary. Then I saw Alien and Aliens and I was like, wait, what the funk this was a movie in the eighties and no one told me about it until I'm fucking furious. Uh. And then I also saw the Thing that year and I was like, wait, this was here the whole time and no one told me. And then I also saw Evil Dead too, and I just loved all of that, like

super extreme creature and like, I really love campy horror stone. Also, I've been and so I've been working at krypt since. So I'm coming up on my four year anniversary. Um can't but yeah, the company has come a long way. But we we make we're digital multimedia companies. We've started by making short films on Facebook and YouTube and now we have show on Peacock. I make TikTok's with our monsters and they do a bunch of really silly stuff.

There's there's a TikTok of the Looksie, one of our monsters, with this guy Johnny bridge Hold and they're like flirting with each other and Tricy Mittel liked it on Twitter, so like that's like one of my things that I was part of, and I'm like, you've made it my dream, I've made it, Yeah, exactly, That's so cool. Okay. And

then so so you like know your ship. It does bring me some comfort that you're also a latecomer to the genre, because I feel like there's a lot of the horror horror fans I've spoken with in the past, they're like, I was born, I was born into horror. There definitely is some like gate keepiness about some of

the community. There are other people I've found that the crypt community has definitely built themselves around are the people who are just lovers of horror who want to share it with other people and want to welcome people in wherever you know that ends up being. So I have another friend of mine, this guy dead Meat, who does a kill Count YouTube channel, and yeah, I think about yeah,

oh yeah. So for a lot of kids who don't watch the horror movies, they can watch the kill Count and it's like a silly way of like getting into horror or like watching something that is too scary for you. So yeah, there's a lot of horror fans that are more welcoming and want to get people in. Nice Oh my gosh. So then as far as your relationship with the Love, which you said you love it and you've seen it several times. I love this movie. Yeah, so

it came out in sixteen. I saw it. I think it was because they were doing a screening of it at the New Beverley and they had a bunch of Annabeller's original paintings hung up in the theater. So there was a night where she was there, I think, but I didn't see her in person, but I did get to see all of her original paintings because she directed, wrote, produced,

made the costumes, made the sets, the score. Yeah yeah, everything she did everything that blew me away, because yeah, I was like, it took her like, what like seven years to make this movie. Yeah, so wild. Yeah. So, So another friend of mine had seen it at the New Beverley and was like, Melissa, this is exactly your ship. You need to go, Like do you love spooky stuff and like sixties mud horror, campy like CULTI And so I went and I saw and I was like, It's

just the best thing I've ever seen. I just also seeing it in a theater with people, everyone was laughing. And so there have been other times since then. I'm now showing it to people and I've been like looking at them expectedly and they're like, I don't know how to react to this, like, I'm kind of freaked out, hello, because Caitlin and I had like different degrees of reaction

to that, and it does. I can't see how seeing this movie in a theater would have made a difference, because it does feel like especially with part of my so my history with this movie is I have no history with this movie, and I was very excited that you brought it to us because they had heard of

it several times. But I just had no I didn't know anything because this movie is streaming and a lot of places, and I was really stoked to watch it, and I felt like I didn't have the pre existing knowledge of what was being like pastiche to understand some

of the references. So I'm excited to go through them because I think that, like I mean, in terms of like if you showed me this movie and I did not know when it came out, would not have been like I feel like she nailed making it seem like a movie from the seventies, Like in every single respect, I never would have guessed that this came out in the last ten years. You know, it's shot on thirty

five millimeter film and she's done. She did a lot of collecting of vintage items, furniture and clothing and a lot of stuff she remade herself. There are several tells though, because there are modern cars and literally opens a cell phone. Oh my god, I call in the restaurant. That's so. There are two other references. There's a Stepford Wives References which comes out in two and they referenced DNA testing, which does not come into practice until So those are

the tales. So yeah, it's like I feel, I I have a lot of questions and things I want to like talk through and then criticisms as well. But I do I mean, on its face, the like, I feel like I'm gonna skew towards giving this movie the benefit of the doubt in a lot of areas because it's such a labor of love, and it's like I feel, you know, it's like almost no directors get the chance to do every single part of a movie and work

on it for the better part of a decade. And the fact that a like a woman whose entire mission statement for her whole career has been to see things through the female gaze and and channel that I think is so admirable and just really fucking cool. So I'm yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. UM. Caitlin, what's your history with The Love Which? I had never seen it either, It's only been the past three or four days since I first saw it. I will similarly have to talk

through my feelings. Caitlyn hated it. She hate this movie. I'm sorry everybody, but I don't like it. Um. I think it has a lot to do with wait for listeners. Alyssa just pant over to a framed poster she has of the Love Witch. I also dressed as a love Which for Halloween. In no way that's as good. I did the rainbow code. You did the rainbow The rainbow code was gorgeous, and then knowing that Annabeller made the

rainbow coat made it better. Like, that's so cool. I'm excited that Kayle hated it, though, because I'm excited to have this conversation and this is exactly what I wanted. Okay, this is an open forum, baby, I'm I'm a centrist. Okay, yeah, the spectrum is represented here. UM. As far as how you might feel about The Love Which, UM, I will try not to come down too too hard on it because there are some things that it's attempting that I appreciate.

But then there's like I have a whole other, like monologue prepared about what it means to be a true feminist, and that means that I can hate a feminist piece of art and that's okay, yeah spicy, I know. Yeah. I mean, well that's been we've been talking about that since. Is like equality means that every one can be mediocre ship and that's fine. Can bet, yeah, girl can bet? But if I girl, oh no, must like other girl things. But women support women, okay. Always. I feel like that's

what was that horrible movie. I feel like that's bombshell feminism. That's like I have to empathize with Gretchen Carlson because we're and you're like, no, I do not, baby, I do not. Like, Yeah, I'm excited to get into that because it's like, yeah, it's like if it's not your thing, it's not your thing. Like that's fine, yeah, all right, should we should we get into it? Let's get into it. Yeah, you want to recap she want to recap it. I'll

be recapping it. Here we go. So, as we said, the movie is very visually stylistic and homage and perhaps even parody of like pulp novels and like technicolor B movie melodramas of the nineties sixties. Down to the acting style, to which I appreciate. I wasn't expecting that. I felt like that was, like, the visuals are beautiful. Knowing that the director made all the visuals is really cool to know. But I felt like it was like kind of the

act the B movie acting that sold me on it. Weirdly, I don't know, because I don't know how to describe what kind of acting it is that they're doing. It's not great. It's very stilted dialogue and like you can see, at least for me, like I feel like I can see the directing and I can like hear what directions she gave the actors. And also there are many there

are a few points. I can't remember the woman's name who's like the Queen of the Witches or whatever, but she's like clearly looking at a card off camera, Barbara Barbara. She's like very clearly like reading off of a card, being like whiches have always been burned, and keeps looking back and forth. And there's like no big names in this movie, so it's hard, like it was kind of fun to be Like, I wonder if that actor legitimately has no talent or if they're playing a game of

four d ches. I don't know about hard to say, but I thought Samantha Robinson was really, really, really good in this part. It's I don't know how many actors can but I okay, well we disagree on that. Like I think she was in terms of like what it seems like they wanted her to do, she did it. I think she nailed this part. I think she fucking was perfect for it. I don't think that anyone else could have done it and sold it this way. But I've never seen her in anything before. She's also in

this movie called Cam. She's not the main character of it, but it's about a cam girl and like a competing we've we've had Issa on the Pot before. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, I think I definitely listened to your episode. Yeah. I think that she came on for easy A Yes anyway, yes, okay, So we meet that character Elaine. She's driving in a red convertible. Her voice over tells us that she's starting a new life. We see shots of a man drinking

something that seems to be poisoned. It turns out that this is her ex husband Jerry, who she may or may not have murdered. Then Elaine gets pulled over by a cop. We'll put a pin in that guy. But then she continues on her way. Her voice over continues and she basically is saying, like, when Jerry left me, I devoured everything I could about how to get your man back. So she's on a mission. She arrives at

this house she's moving into. This woman Trish lets her in, and then she and Trish go to this Victorian tea room where they have a conversation about love and romance and please using men love Trish rooting for Trish um. Elaine tells Trish how the day her husband Jerry left her was the day that she died, but then she was reborn as a witch. Uh. Then we see Elaine making a love potion and she sort of like praise to the goddess to be sent a beautiful sweet man.

Then she meets this guy Wayne, and she has him take her to his house in the woods, where she gives him her potion and mesmerizes him with some dancing and also the lining of her coat and also this hallucinigenic herbs. Yes, I figured that was part of the potion. Wayne is I mean, you know r I p in a second. But Wayne is such a piece of work where I just never knew how he was, Like just such a what was what was the word he used

to describe himself. That was just a way of saying horny, like a libertine Like yeah, I was just like, okay, so you're a horny Like it makes me laugh so much when horny people use fancy words to describe themselves. I'm like, you could just say your horny and we'll all know what you're saying. And it doesn't make you a genius to be horny. Sorry, Like you're not like galaxy horny nous what people intellectualize being horny. It cracks

me up. Um, So he has drink this potion that he doesn't know is this love potion, and then he's all like, ah, I feel so weird, and then they have sex, and then he seems to very painfully fall in love with her to the point where he dies. It becomes from it. It's like he it almost like he almost like Benjamin Buttons, where he becomes more and more baby like and then he dies. Yeah, he's like screaming and crying. Yeah, like he's calling for his mom and then he and then he dies and then he dies.

That was fascinating. So he dies, and then she buries his body, along with a witch bottle that she makes that she puts her urine and a used tampon into. Then she meets up with some witch friends at a

burlesque show, Barbara and gayan I'm not sure. Um. They talk about love spells and how Elaine should be careful with using them, and they talk about how they as women need to approach love and sex and it's mostly gay and being like this is how women should have love, this is how women should sex, and dancing sexy is actually good chicken soup for the for the lady, you're

just like, shut up, okay. And again it's like that actor I thought did a really good job of making me want them to stop talking just being real nasty, just being a gross person. Yes, then we get what might be a flashback but also just might be the next scene, which is a just kind of like ceremonial ritual where a lane I think it's like inducted into the witch coven or there's some induction type ritual. Okay,

got it. Then we cut to the cop that had pulled a lane over at the beginning of the movie. This is Sergeant Griff Meadows. He has been promoted and now he's a detective who starts investigating the death of Wayne, the guy who died after taking Elaine's love potion. They find his buried body and the witch bottle that Elaine

left behind with her tampon and urine. I was like, Elaine really does leave behind a lot of evidence, evidence for an evidence like that was I was like, Okay, it's very campy because she has just left like so many different ways to identify her on the scene, a very shallow grave with you everything that belongs to her bodily and physically right on top, like just a pile of different DNA samples, and here's my driver's license, and here's my birth want, here's my actually my phone number,

and feel free to text. So, like, the cops find the body because the teacher that works with Wayne is kind of seeing what's happening and she reports him missing, and so that's why the cops go up there. Right that woman also saw Wayne leave with Elaine, so the mountain of evidence just keeps piling up real stacked against her. So this investigation is happening. Meanwhile, Elaine has dinner with Richard. This is Tricia's husband while Trish is out of town.

Elane feeds him some love potion. Is what I think we're meant to understand happens. She's seducing him and he's like, who are you and she's like, I'm the love witch and we're like that's like, She's like, yeah, I'm the

love witch. And then we see another witchy ceremony where Elaine tells Barbara that she broke things off with Richard and so she's now back in the dating pool, and she does like that classic thing where she's like, yeah, things didn't work out, Like every time someone definitely dies, she's like, I don't know what happened. I guess it's just didn't work out. I was like, wow, been there, That's why I identified worth about yeah. Um. So then

Sergeant Griff continues to investigate. He speaks to a professor who specializes in the occult and then he speaks to the owner of this witchy apothecary type store and she tells Griff about Elaine. So he pays Elaine a visit to ask her some questions about what might be a homicide, and he's like, are you a witch? And she's like yeah,

I'm like okay, she's honest. And then he's like, do you know Wayne Peters And she's like nah, and we're like just kidding, but then he gets all like wooed by her and she's like, we're meant to be together, and then they start dating and he takes her horseback riding, and while their horseback riding, they happened upon a Renaissance fair where they're kind of like ca noodling and they do this like long scene at the lone really long scene at the Renaissance fair, and it's like, once again,

it's like, on my first watch of this movie, I wasn't aware that the director had made every single piece, And I'm like, I guess if I had made all of those Renaissance clothes, I would have made that scene last longer too. But that's also why I would hire a costume designers so I would be less precious about about it. That scene was really long. Yeah, she spent a year on the costumes for that scene. A loan I can't, but I mean, they were gorgeous. But I was like, wow, we sure are spending a lot of

time here. But then in retrospects, second viewing, I was like, Okay, I get it, I understand. I will say that this scene did traumatize me a bit because a renaissance fair is where I had my sledge attack, and so it really brought back some some bad memory you know, if you know, you know? Um? Okay. Anyway, so they go to this ren fair and they have this kind of like fake marriage ceremony, and then we hear Griff's voice over about how love makes a man soft and how

an ideal woman doesn't exist. But it also seems like he's falling in love with her. I do not think he is. She has like fed him any potion, but he is like smitten with her, to the point where he refuses to investigate Wayne's death any further because he no longer suspects Elaine of killing him. She's to his girlfriend to be guilty. Then Trish discus over's her husband

Richard dead, having died by suicide. Then we cut to a scene where Trish and Elaine have tea again and Trish talks about how she blames herself for Richard's death and how she suspects Richard was having an affair she doesn't know with whom, but she wants to kill whoever it was with. Then Trish discovers that it was Elaine who had the affair with Richard, and Elaine comes home, Trish is there, and then they fight at she's there wearing a we like looking like late, I feel like that.

We gotta mention that. Yeah, I really did enjoy that part. It's like, what is this like single white female, like little road we're pulling up on. But I was like, all right, let's see where this goes. And it kind of didn't go anywhere, but whatever. It's fun to watch because then Trish there's like a dagger involved, but no one gets injured. And then Trish just like runs out and then goes to the police um and like gives

Griff even more evidence. And then Elaine and Griff meet up at the Burlesque Club and he's like, hey, Elaine, the DNA testing came back and it's your DNA and she's like, so, She's like, I didn't kill anyone. They died because they were so in love with me and he's like, um, you're still under arrest. And then all the patrons at this burlesque club attack her and they're like, burn the witch, Burn the witch. Griff helps her get away. Then they're back at her place and she's like, Griff,

everything's going to be okay. I love you so much, and then she tries to give him a love potion but he tosses it aside, so she stabs him to death in the chest. Lived happily ever after. The one thing that killed and I were like, oh, she killed the cop at the end, because there was so much of this and I'm like, oh, this is playing out like Lana del Ray's life. I hate it. But she

does kill the cops. She does kill the cop a dand but then she has a fantasy about them getting married and riding away together on a white horse, just the way she described her like fantasy fairy tale. So that is the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss and we're back so okay. So that where I wanted to start with with. I want to kind of like get the bigger criticisms out of the way so we can jump into like

movie discussion. So one of the things that really jumped out to me about just like the premise of this movie without even getting into what is really actually happening, is getting into just like white Girl, which culture which I feel like has always been a thing, but has been kind of steadily on the rise in the past, I want to say, like five to ten years, and if it feels like something that this movie is very much interacting with, and I feel like it's not. I know, Caitling,

you you have some stuff on this as well. It's it's not something that you know, it's really within our purview to completely unpack in the space of an episode, But I just wanted to sort of acknowledge it because it is so I mean, if I feel like it. It follows so many kind of frustrating and unfortunate media trends that are essentially white women co opting black and indigenous culture in order to center themselves in narratives or

cultural practices or or whatever it is. Um and it feels like, especially in particular, like the idea of Witchcraft, most of the famous quote unquote like which is in popular media are white ladies. And I wanted to shout out one essay in particular that I thought was like just so incredibly good. Well, we'll link it in the description. Um. It's by a Navajo writer named Leu Cornum in The

New Inquiry, and it's called White Magic. That interestingly, uh, their thesis kind of centers around another another movie we've covered on this show, and so it's not in conversation with The Love Which directly because I do think that The Love Which is so campy that it kind of manages to skirt some of this conversation, whereas the Vivich is taking itself very seriously, so that the criticism feels like, Okay, we really have to tell what is the name of

that director again? Who's like I went to the library? Is it Robert Egger's Is that? Am I getting that right? Yeah? I always want to say Robert Evans, but like that's just my friend, Like that's not That's not who made the Vivic at all. Yeah, Robert Eggers. And then he has that iconic quote that was like I went to the library, like and that was how he learned about women and indigenous culture, and it's like, why did you

make this movie? Anyways? Luke Horner wrote this really good essay that discusses the Vivich and also discusses other really popular movies that have come out that center around white women as witches. So think, I mean a lot of movies we've covered on the show, Think the Craft, Think Practical Magic, like Pincus, Pocus, pocus Pocus. Yes, like these are all name checked in in the essay, But essentially I mean, I I would really recommend that listeners read.

It's kind of a long essay, so you should also read it for yourself. I want to quote a little bit of it. But they're making the argum meant that while it's not untrue that white women have practiced witchcraft for a long time, no one saying that that isn't true. However, it is often at the expense of, or the erasure of black or Indigenous people. So I'm going to quote

a little bit here. They talk a lot about the Salem witch trials, which is again a true event that happened that specifically centers white women in the historical retelling of it, even though there are many black and Indigenous

women who are affected by witch trials. So okay, Luke Horton says, quote actual witch hunts of the past, such as the Salem witch trials, followed from a fear of Indigenous women and their role in forms of governance alternative to those of the Foundling country, along with genocidal tactics

of sexual violence. Early settlers also worked through their fear by projecting it elsewhere, the hyper visibility and necessarily spectacular aspects of which trials a white women were an arena to handle physically and politically the threat of indigenous societies

where women were in power. Beyond the events at Salem historical spectacle as formative to America as the Thanksgiving myth, unruly women, be they Native, black, or white, have continuously been post as savage and placed outside the enclosed boundaries of civilization and nation, and a move towards symbolic enclosure.

Both witches and Indigenous women have been reduced to accessorized signifiers hawked by urban outfitters or Forever twenty one available for the care free to adorn themselves with at Coachella and express their pagan predilections for living ever so briefly

outside time unquote. So essentially, the argument that Luke Arnum is very effectively making here is that it's just yet another example of centering white women where the issue is much much larger, and it is in some ways, uh costume that white women can very easily take on and off in almost like a cosplay kind of way, where when black and Indigenous women engage with um with, I guess it's like I don't even have the correct language for it, but witchy shit, Um, it is not as

easily separated taken on taken off, and the consequences are are more severe and pervasive. So I just wanted to touch on that because we haven't talked about that in a while, and I think we covered we covered the craft so long ago that I feel like we we didn't even really fully understand that stuff at the time. Totally. Yeah, that was kind of before we were getting we were doing like deep dives into context and things like that.

So um, but look at us having grown our old geniuses. Um, yes, thank you for for doing the research and for sharing that, and yes we'll definitely link that article. Um, some of the context that I did but didn't get very far into because it's a book and we famously famously don't right. I tried my very hardest. Wow, in Unison, we killed

it Um. The book is entitled, which is Sluts Feminists by Kristen J. Sol it Is, And again I did not get very far into it, um, but I would recommend it nonetheless because it seems like it's very cool and well researched and has a thesis statement that very closely aligns with the ideology that we promote on this show.

But it's basically about how the sexuality and sexual liberation of women and fems has historically been feared and demonized, and that fear has been used to justify condemning women, accusing them of witchcraft and like accusing them of being demonically possessed, burning them at the stake, all that stuff from history, and then how that fear and condemnation has never gone away but has evolved over the years into what we recognize today as modern day slut shaming, UM

shaming of sex works, shaming of queerness. So that's what the book is about. UM. I plan to read it more one day when I have time to read a book, one day when we're back to the book reading. But but I feel like this movie is trying to say a lot of what this book says. I would argue

more effectively. And this book is also way more inclusive and its approach to that because we'll talk about how this movie is very white, very heteronormative, very gender normative, very body normative, like the list was on, and maybe that'll bring us into the discussion about like what this movie is trying to say. Um, but I feel like hitting the trying really hard. But yeah, I recommend the book for anyone who wants to check it out. I'll check it out. Yeah, okay, so yeah, let's let's get

into the Let's get into the movie. Um, so, this movie is definitely talking a lot about patriarchy, is talking I feel like it. It presents a lot of I don't know some of the moments, and it is absolutely we'll get into how gender and heteronormative the approach is,

and and how the characters are. There were some conversations so that I enjoyed watching characters go back and forth about like I thought, all of the conversations, even though they're not, you know, test friendly, but the conversation between Elaine and Trish on both sides of the movie, I thought were really interesting and just presenting different approaches to

dealing with patriarchy. Sure, yeah, I mean for me, I mean I think there's an argument to be made that this movie is about a woman who reclaims her power and becomes sexually liberated by way of being a witch and by way of murdering men, which is funny, but it is very funny. I don't hate that. Now it's fun again. For me, it's just like the execution, it just didn't feel very effective to me. I feel like the movie is setting her up for a character arc

that never happens. What did you think was going to happen? I'm so curious. I thought that she was going to start out. So she starts out being very much like So the conversation she has with Trish at the very beginning, I like transcribed it because I was just like, what is happening here? Okay? So she's you know, she's all like, you know, we may be grown women, but underneath, we're dreaming about being carried off by a prince on a white horse. And then she's like, men are like children.

They're very easy to please as long as we give them what they want. And what men want is a pretty woman to love and to take care of them and to make them feel like a man and to give them total freedom and whatever they want to do or be. And then Trish is like, well, what about what we want? What like, how are we going to be equals if we keep catering to men and like all of their needs. And I'm like, yeah, good point, Trish. And Elene is like, if you want love, you have

to give love. Giving men sex is a way of unlocking their love potential. And then this is when Trish is like, sounds like you've been brainwashed. Elene, sounds like a bad self help book at many points, like and nineteen eighties self help Look for Women written by a man exactly, That's exactly. And then this is when Trish is like, it sounds like you've been brainwashed by the patriarchy. Your whole self worth is wrapped up and pleasing a man.

So at the beginning, like at the beginning here, Elaine has these very regressive ideas about like catering to men's needs, and then Trish calls her out on it, and so that's why I'm like, oh, there's this, you know, maybe Trish is going to kind of help her see her worth outside of how men value her and all this stuff.

And you could argue that that maybe happens again because she just keeps killing men, but to me, it felt like the voice of reason character Trish leaves the story and it is absent from it for most of the time, and then when she does show up again towards the end, she's like, oh, maybe you were right, Elaine, maybe you should give a man his fantasy and cater to his desires and all that stuff, and I'm just like, huh. I felt like, okay, So, like I I'm going through

an extremely heterosexual breakup right now. So I was sort of just like, I mean, I don't mean to laugh at that, but the way you framed it was sorry, I framed it like it was an extremely goofy movie. Um, and that's on me. I'm realizing why it is funny. But I don't know, like there were I agree with

these structurally that where Trish lands isn't satisfying. And maybe I'm giving the director too much credit here, but I felt like Anna Biller is such an outspoken feminist that she has to be aware of what she's doing there.

And it's kind of a matter for us of whether we agree with that approach or not, because it's like because because I feel like, if you know, if this was actually a movie from the seventies that would have most likely been written and directed by men, if a conversation like that happened, there's no four D chest going on, Like it's not like like that's just literally what they think.

But Annabeller's body of work very much indicates that that's not what she thinks, and interviews that she did around

this movie indicate that it's not what she thinks. And so where I was sometimes hitting a wall, but like where where I kind of landed on was like, I don't know, I'm curious what you think about this as well, Allissa, of clearly there's a lot of dissonance in a Lane's mind about men, because I feel like she's almost trying to present this fantasy so hard, and it's not like she's really presented to us as like an aspirational character, like she's like whatever, but she's trying to present this

fantasy so hard in a way that is clearly so psychologically destructive to her that she like kills the people that she's working so hard to bring this fantasy to.

And on Trish is and I felt like Trish like I was also bummed out that Trish ended by being like, maybe I was wrong, Maybe I shouldn't have like had thoughts about like my own agency and independence, And it felt to be like Annabella kind of left it in this place where it was like fighting the patriarchy is really hard and doesn't always like work, which is so depressing and like not really the message I'm seeking in

a movie. This is why I think it's so clever. Okay, yeah, please please, you didn't hit it hit us because Annabella is a feminist and she is aware of what she's doing, and I think the conversations between Elaine and Trish clearly show that, because like when Elaine is talking cuckoo, then Trish is literally yeah the voice of reason, being like, um, hello,

here's reality, what are you talking about? But Elaine is such a surreal and otherworldly character, and I put her solidly in the good for her universe, like she wanted love and she took it and she whatever, but I did.

I did also want to mention that Annabular was reading a bunch of self help books and that was what inspired her to write the movie, and the character was like echoing those and that's what I think is so cool is that it like the look of it being so solidly sixties and it feeling like a sixties movie, Like you could look at a frame of it or a scene of it and think it's from the sixties.

And I think that's what the juxtaposition of all of these things playing together, Like I'm not explaining it right, but no, I feel like it it adds up to something that is very funny and very clever to me, because I think she's pointing out so many things while staying so true to the campy sixty horror genre and saying a new feminist message. Like I see Trish's like, well, I guess feminism didn't work out for me after all.

And she's kind of doing this robotics. It's like this robotic like I don't know what to do, and she's just kind of like it's like she's standing at a wall and she's like walking into it and like she's malfunctioning almost. It's like, well, I don't know what to do now. It's like the Stepford Wives moment where she's like, come have some coffee. Comes Well, It's like when she's

supposed to she's supposed to be the good wife. She's supposed to be the one who has emotions and and earned her husband or whatever, or like, has her own agency and feelings and blah blah blah. But then as soon as she's without her husband, she's like, what what do I like? That makes sense to me? I found okay. So Annabeller has an interview about this movie posted on her website that I found very clarifying in I don't know.

I had a lot of questions, especially when I was leaving my first viewing of this movie, which I went into completely cold, and then was like, hold on, who is who made this movie? Because it makes it makes all the difference. And speaking to your point, Elissa, yeah, I I I found her perspectively helpful in wrapping my head around like what she's trying to do. So the question, I also am not clear on who's asking these questions.

It might be her asking frequently asked questions to herself unclear, but on her. So the question is which character should be identify with Elaine or Trish? Annabella replies, quote, our identification flips depending on the scene. I'm trying to talk about how difficult it is to be a woman in today's culture and how all of the options for creating an identity are problematic. For instance, Trish is comfortable with herself and happily married, and Elaine feels she has to

tie herself in knots to please a man. So Trish is the quote unquote normal one and Elaine is desperate and has self esteem issues. But in the end, Elaine uses her fantasy doll tactics to steal Trish's husband and destroy him, and Trish is left widowed and broken. When we see what Elaine has done to Trish, we hate Elaine and identify with Trish. But at other moments, as when Elaine is flashing back to her abuse by men, we identify with Elaine. I tried to create a Junkian

animus for Elaine. First of all, Okay, you've read a book. Okay, she went to the library. Who are you, Robert Eggers? Robert Eggers went to the library. If we never made that t shirt? Um, I tried to I think it's I've never said Carl. Is it Carl Young? I think Young the psychologist? Right? Yes, Okay, I tried to create I'm continuing her. I tried to create a young Gian animus for Elane, a group of judging, manipulating male characters that she hears in her head or paints in her paintings.

It's in her attempts to escape this animus that she becomes dangerous to herself and to others. It will be interesting to see how many women will relate to this unquote. So I get it, Like, that's that totally makes sense to me of of like different perspectives on trying to navigate patriarchy, navigate abusive relationships, because that is a lot of what Elaine is actively processing throughout the movie is like trauma inflicted on her by men from her past.

Whether it's I think that you like hear the echoes of her father at one point, you hear certainly a lot from her ex husband. She talks about it with other characters. It's clearly like a big defining trauma that like informs all of her behavior. So yeah, I mean, I I'm having this thought in real time, so bear

with me here. But I feel like something this movie, especially upon hearing that quote from Anna Biller, I feel like part of what this movie is attempting to comment on is something that we've kind of grappled with on the podcast and even in my own personal life, this navigating and reconciling as as a hetero woman. How how do I reconcile being a militant feminist while also wanting

the hetero romantic companionship of a man. This is something I have a conversation with myself about daily, and I wonder if, like, that's part of what this movie is dealing with, because we have Elaine, who is very emblematic of this like old school sixties era and earlier ideology of like, well, a woman exists to please a man, to cater to his every whim, to be sexual, not because you want to be sexual or explore yourself sexually,

but to sexually please a man. You know, all all of this stuff that for all of history had been what was expected of women by the patriarchy. And then you have a character like Trish who is saying, like, no, this is sixteen or the sixties. We don't know what the decade it is that we're in, but we don't

think like that anymore. You're you've been brainwashed, like life isn't a fairy tale, Husbands aren't Prince Charming's like get with the program, So you have these like conflicting things that and again I don't know what even point I'm trying to arrive at here, but no, I I totally Again, this is like watching this movie and at a very

interesting time for me personally. It's like, yeah, I think that that's something that a lot of tragically straight with it are grappling with, you know, is is And and also like I think that that exists, you know, across the spectrum of sexuality of like, well, I want to be empowered, I want to be independent as a person. Why am I still feeling like I want a partner? But it's like that's part of and not everybody feels that way. I'm not trying to over generalize, but but

it's like that's such a part of being human. And the more I watched it, the more I engaged with Anna Biller's commentary on like what she was trying to do. I thought it was like kind of a really brave thing to do in some ways. Again, it's like the whole it's a very white cast, and Anna Biller is is um half Japanese, half white, but the cast itself

is extremely white. I feel like this is you could argue that it because it's interacting with sixties and seventies B movies, it's extremely heteronormative and binary as it pertains

to gender. But I also feel like, like what you're describing, it feels like almost like a feminist elephant in the room for some people, where there's so many beliefs that I hold very firmly that I cannot apply to my own life to save my own life, Like you know, I feel like, and this is maybe a reach, but like I feel that way about like a lot of body issues and a lot of like I'm an extremely

body positive person. I feel like I actively recognize how our bodies are policed and mistreated and we're told to look a certain way and I'm still anorexic. Like it's so like it it is like such a personal journey on you know, holding your beliefs and holding them very authentically,

which it seems like Annabillard does as well. And also I don't know acknowledging through a piece of art that it's like but yeah, when it's you like fucking good luck, you know, it's yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know, I feel the same way. I find so in that way, maybe this movie is far more relatable than I'm giving it credit for. For me, Okay, here's what I think

it is. Again. I see what the movie its intentions are, and I honestly think it's because I think it has a screenplay that I do not think is well written. The execution just like kind of falls flat for me. I think it's very largely like a screenwriting thing, an editing thing. The movie is like a half hour longer than it needs to be. And I feel bad dumping on these things because I know Annabeller did all of it, but that will bring me to my monologue that I'll

get to eventually. But so I think it's just kind of like a personal preference thing where the execution falls flat because the story is just sort of like meandery and at times unfocused, and I think something's happen that are probably like symbolic or allegorical of something, but it's not totally clear to me what or things aren't totally tracking and and I don't know if it's because it was intentionally Okay, this is gonna be so mean, but I have to say it was it intentionally poorly written

because it's paying homage to the like these pulpy b movies of that era that are also poorly written. I sort of thought, so, I don't know, what did you think? Was that? In my opinion, yes, in my opinion, yes, if it's is. If it is not, then in my opinion, she like if you didn't do it on purpose, she was geniusly riding the line of and just like stumbling into the perfect like wrongness. But also so that's why I think she had to have done it on purpose.

Like I think it's so stilted in the way that it is written, and like, yet other lines are so clever and like the stuff about the tampon, like must men have never seen a used tampon? And then later when he's like and I found an old hot dog under the bed, it was like, so I didn't get that.

Tell my second viewing stuff like that is so clever that I think that the moments where it is like, I think it is just a perfect homage to sixties movies and like using all of the parts that are like using them as paper dolls, almost like sixties movies, being like, Okay, these are the these are the pieces that I have, so I'm going to use them to tell more messed up, slightly different story, but it's these are the what I have, and people recognize the roles

that these people are in, so I'll I will use them. Yeah, I suppose I land on. Okay, Well, a poorly written movie and kind of modeled story does then not lend itself very well to a clear message for me? Sure, clearly other because I read so many reviews that are like, this movie is genius, it's brilliant, it's amazing people, we're foaming for this movie. But to be fair, a lot of the reviews I read, we're hailing the visual style and all of the artistry that went into the movie,

but saying like you should just ignore the plot. The plot you just don't even notice it, just like kind of don't even watch the plot, but just be sure to really look at the movie though, But it looks amazing. So so for me coming from like a very like story centric screenwriting background, I would obviously never mentioned my master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University, but I just feel like there could be a much clearer, more like

sex positive more. Here's why I think she did this way. I think that the visual style of it is so effective and it just burns into your brain. That's and you can't not look at it. And I think the poster is just so eye catching and like it looks like the six season in such a way that you're like, I have to see if this was real, Like I have to know if this was from that time, And the way it glues you into it that way, I

think is part of the app of it. And then it also like is using this yeah, meandering type of stuff, but in like these dreamy styles, because I think that it's supposed to be when you realized later like oh, that was the movie that was not really from the sixth season, like these parts of it stick out to you. So I think it's supposed to like parts of it stick with you later where you're like, oh, an old hot dog he he meant he found a tampon under that.

I think that's why it is affected. I don't think it's supposed to be Like if it were more straightforward about the message, I don't think it would be as fun or interesting or catchy. That it uses that style to its advantage, and like it has it does a bunch of silly and possibly meandering stuff in terms of like other films, but I don't think that it would

work any other way. And I think the campiness of it is what makes it so weird and special and why that the real cool feminist messages of it are so special, because it's just like they're dropped in there among this, like glittering just play, like, oh, I didn't expect to find this in here, but this is fun. Yeah. I suppose if it was more straight forward, it would feel too preachy and just to like, we get it. Women are people who deserve to be sexually liberated and

like all that stuff. So yeah, yeah, because because I I, I don't know, Like I I run very hot and cold on art movies, where like if I like it, I love it, and if I'm like not vibing with the style or the script, I'm like, this is the most annoying ship I've ever seen in my entire let Like that's whatever the nature of the genre. But yeah, I don't know, it does feel like it comes down to personal preference. I like that. She I don't know.

I just like I can't in good faith dump on this movie too much because it's just so much work and so many like risks, and I feel like making very simple feminist points in movies is such a thing to do right now, Um, where it's very like and that's how I am and I'm and girls actually rule, and like as time goes on, there are and this this kind of brings me back to the essay from Luke Cornum I was talking about earlier, where it's like straightforward movies about which is that come out now are

operating on like a higher level in terms of social commentary than they were twenty years ago, because if you think about The Craft, the Craft starts as a story of his sisterhood that devolves into teen girls blackmailing each other over various guys, like it ultimately becomes and you could say the same thing for Practical Magic, where it's like it's about sisterhood but also is inherently tied to heterosexual relationships and doesn't really end up making a point

about anything in spite of marketing itself like it is saying something which it kind of isn't, even though it's still fun to watch, right whatever. But I I am finding myself more drawn to like unusual ways of making points like that because there's just so many movies right now that's like women are good, and it's like, yeah, I know, it's that I just find that exhausting it

to like be bashed over the head with it. And I think the scene that really solidifies is that the last scene of the movie really solidifies that it is a self aware of parody. To me, is like when they go back to the Renaissance fair the mock wedding scene, and all of the sound, all of the music is gone, but you hear all of everyone's like start strustling and

like people breathing weirdly. So you hear like all of these just like gross unsettling noises that are like okay, there's people here, but there's all of the music is gone,

and like it's just very unsettling and weird. And so that to me says like she is aware that, like this is a really ridiculous fantasy and like obviously you should not be like I'm going to be like when I But also it's like that girl literally yeah, Mrs Mrs girl Boss, Mrs Elizabeth Holmes, the Witch, but like yeah, but also it's like I don't know, there were parts

of it I didn't like. There are parts of it I did like but I do feel like now having watched it a couple of times and like reading where the director's coming from, I do feel and just like through this conversation, I'm like, Okay, I understand what she's trying to say. And then it's like, you know, no no harm, no foul as far as I'm concerned, Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. I agree with listen.

Like anything that bashes you over the head or has some weird I just I'm always reminded of that scene in the last Avengers movie. We're like ten women that they've managed to like weave into the stories throughout don't know each other. The girls are here exactly like all the women in the m C. You congregate on the battlefield and start to walk alongside each other, and they're

like why feminism, Donna Exactly. That ship annoys me so much because it's just so like performative, and it's like whatever male director's idea of what they think women want to see or that they think is empowering for women or whatever, and like so anything that's like very bash you over the head like that is similarly not effective. I guess. I just think there were some things that I was like, how what what is the takeaway here? What am I supposed to be? Or how does the

movie feel about this? Or how does the you know, how does the filmmaker feel about this? And one of those things was um and again, maybe this is more clearly effective comedy and parody to other people, but I was just kind of missing it. Where so the men would typically take the love potion fall painfully in love to the point where they were feeling in such a way that some of the other characters were like, men become soft when they fall in love, and it's it's

really gross for a man to have feelings. And when Elaine calls him a pussy and she's like, why are you pussy, he's crying just like a little girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of like equating um, men being vulnerable and

men expressing emotion to like being gross and stuff. And I feel like, I guess because the characters who are who don't find that appealing, our characters like Elaine, who we are not meant to identify with, I felt guess my take on that was that again, I do think that Annabella knows that she's doing there where it's I I feel like that would only happened to male characters after they had already previously expressed that they found the same quality when it appears in women to be embarrassing

and gross and annoying, where it's like Wayne's character before he does begin like painfully emoting, which is like super campy and like whatever, it's it's a bit much, but he like they have He and um Elaine have this discussion where he's like, oh, yeah, you know, like when women expect things of me or like basically like I

don't know. I feel like everyone who is the like misfortune of having sex with kind of an asshole guy has had a version of this conversation where it's like, you know, like I don't understand why I have to be like nice to people that I have sex with, Like it's it's so like corny and over the top. But it's that I thought, because that conversation happened when he was expressing the same overblown, clearly overstated behavior that he was describing in an earlier scene that I didn't like.

It didn't come off to me as like men shouldn't emote mentioned expect because some movies definitely firmly come down on that side. But I think that it was almost like a punishment for finding any woman he'd ever been with two expect And it's also like he describes it as like neediness, but what he's describing is basic respect. Like I thought that then was really like the way that that dialogue was written, as he's making it seem like, can you believe someone would expect this of me when

it's kind of basic courtesy? So yeah, that didn't That didn't bump me too much. And I like that she's I like that she's sarcastically babing him in that scene. She's like and then he goes in a way yes, and you're like, oh god, I feel like they were. She was showing like they were. They were flipping the gender roles basically, and that like Wayne was becoming the way women are like stereotypically portrayed ass like super emotional

and like needing whatever. And like when he does all of that, then l And is like, oh, no, you I didn't want you to be like that. This is not what I wanted from love, But now you're doing what women do and I'm not. This is not what I asked for? Yeah, which does I mean? I think, what what that flipped? Because it is like a clear like the way we've been classically conditioned to view binary gender roles flipped and then used to like weaponize against CIS men. What that I mean? And it's like not

every movie can do everything. So I don't even know how much of a criticism this is, but that creative decision means that there's no room for nuance in the discussion. Like it's like, if you're flipping traditional gender roles manufactured by society in this sixties seventies way, then yeah, it feels like Annabella doesn't leave herself a lot of area to discuss living outside of like traditionally prescribed gender identities or like so, so I I understand why, like that

is something that feels kind of glaringly missing. I don't know, this is such a complicated discussion. Do you do you

think I'm really curious about this? Do you guys think that it would be possible to emulate the sixties aesthetic and theme and balance a more nuanced feminist conversation, because I don't know, I feel like there would be room for I mean, there's What I don't understand is like why there's basically no non white actors in this movie, because even for the sixties or seventies, that's not off

certainly like not off the table. So I thought that was like definitely a bizarre choice, and I wonder how consciously made that choice was, if at all. I don't know. I mean, but in terms of like having a nuanced conversation about gender, I mean, this is like the least nuance genre available, So I don't know. I yeah, I guess, I don't know. I feel like, I mean, you can just like even if you wanted it to be esthetically sixties camp technicolor melodrama B movie type thing, and still

make commentary. I feel like that's possible because you can just take creative liberties with things and it I mean maybe it's it'll be disson it for some people, but I don't know, I feel like it could be effective. And now, okay, so now I'm thinking about how there's like long monologues because I was like, oh, yeah, I don't you know, I don't want anything that's bashing me overhead. But then there's like these long scenes where like Barbara and the the Witch man, gay In or whatever are like.

And this is another example of where I'm not sure what the movie is exactly trying to say, because gay In and Barbara they're talking, and they're saying some things that I very much agree with, and then two seconds later they say some other things that I cannot really get behind. So I'm not sure exactly where the movie lands or if this is parody that I just don't

quite get. But to give you an example, they're talking about how, like, you know, there's this history of witchcraft and it's interwoven with this fear of female sexuality and how women were burned at the stake because you know, men feared the erotic feelings that women solicited in them and stuff like that. But then gains like, oh, but

a woman's greatest power lies in her sex ruality. And I just I always found it a little bizarre that that message came from a guy and who is clearly painted as creepy, because I'm not opposed to the message of like anyone finding their sexuality to be a liberating, empowering thing, but it's just like, sure, the vessel for the message is a little DISSI it, yeah, because later he's also like, because women's greatest power is in their sexuality,

that means that you should wear perfume and high heels and makeup and learn to dress your hair in attractive ways, you know, display flesh artfully and be a mother and a lover. I'm always displaying flesh artfully as all about about you. And I'm not like anti makeup or anti perfume or anti explosing flesh, like I do all of these things. Anyone can do whatever they want with their body. But he's basically saying, do these things in order to be appealing to men, and it's very important that you

do these things. And then he says like he's telling women to stand your ground, but always let the man feel like a man. And then Barbara's chiming in and she's saying, yeah, we have to use sex magic to destroy a man's fear of you. And so I'm like, is this what the movie subscribing to is? I didn't

think so, Like, I I didn't think. I mean, I don't think that the movie was necessarily getting behind what Gan was saying because he's like, I feel like he's like clearly like this bizarre foil who's like trying to get women to behave the way that he wants. But

I do, I do see what you're saying. That, like, the message of this movie can get a little like it's so esthetically pleasing, and then sometimes the message gets a little bit mouddled, especially in a in a scene like this, where again it's like this constant tug of war of like points that I agree with and that I think are coming from a place of like, yes, it's okay to be empowered sexually as a woman. Yes, women have historically been condemned and persecuted for their sexuality

and perceived as being evil witches because of it. And then two seconds later, like this guy who Barbara and Elaine seem to agree with, is like, and that's why you should make yourself as attractive to men as possible, because that's how you become empowered. And I'm like, and again I'm like, this might be parody, but if it is, I can't not really tell. And it's just not quite working for me, just because of like the way the

scene is written, the delivery of the dialogue. There's just like all these things that to me make it feel

very dissonant. It does I mean it just it does seem like it's a matter of like this is just like not definitely like not a movie for everyone, like at its core, which like, yeah, I guess leads me to my kind of spiel about how I tend to feel this pressure to like media made by women and other marginalized creators, especially media with a feminist with feminist themes like The Love, which because I want to be supportive to these filmmakers and this cause, but I also

don't want to feel like I kind of have to automatically like these things based solely on this pressure to feel supportive and because then it's just pandering, Like yeah, I do. I do feel It's like I don't know, everyone has a different perspective on this, but I feel like I'm like I'm always going to like give a marginalized creator's project and work a chance, like before I will give some rando white guy a chance. But it

doesn't mean like I don't know. We talked about this on this We've talked about this on the show in the past, where it's like, you know, true true equality means that everyone makes mediocre ship sometimes if the difference is more in like how you know the number of flaming hoops that are added for for marginalized creators. But it's like exactly, it's like, this is a movie by a woman of color, and she did have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it, and it's

still not for everybody. I know. That's like kind of what I'm grappling with on this entire episode, as I'm sure listeners can tell. Where like, I want to be able to judge things based on merit and based on the quality of storytelling, which is the criteria I used to judge media made by cis head white men, because again, like true feminism is to me is that it is okay to admit that you don't like a thing made

by a woman. But like you said, you know, I know how difficult it is for marginalized creators to their movies made, to get funding for their projects two strikes if there's a flop, etcetera. Yeah, I mean right that, you know, distribution and like have their movies seen by a large audience. They don't. They don't even get to

do the same job. And I can't emphasize that enough because I've seen I've seen it all different ways, and they just don't even get to do the same job, and it's just not fucking fair to judge them on the same standards because it's a different ball game. Um, that's why I am inclined to be more forgiving, or to just to not not be more forgiving, but like to like, Okay, what were the circumstances here, Like what

was the budget? Who else was involved in? Really like analyze that part of the situation in context with how I view my opinion of the movie, because I think all of that really hugely matters. And like, like Anna Biller, she had had experiences like that with her own crew on this very movie. There was a piece in Indie Wire published in late seventeen based on of a Twitter thread that Anna Biller had made about how she felt very frustrated by and disrespected by her own crew at

many points. And it doesn't sound like it was like anyone high up. It sounds like the actors were all very respectful, but um, just feeling that like that she as a director who was a woman and also a person of color, like she was not taken as seriously as someone who was Like admittedly, I mean, if you've seen the movie, she's doing some weird stuff. She's making some like hard choices. The swings are big ones. But it doesn't sound like her crew was as I don't know.

I mean, they weren't treating her like they would if she was like David Lynch being like, we're doing something weird today, everybody, and like they were just like, this woman doesn't know what she's doing. So I wanted to. I mean, she she we can link to this as well. But she was saying, quote, it was so bad that during reshoots we had different A d S Assistant directors and they were appalled at what was going on. They said, your own crew is sabotaging you. Why uh blah blah blah.

She said she's had quote this same thing on other films. Some crew members seem how bent on destroying you and the film to make sure it never gets in the can. I think it has to do something with being a female director, and something to do with how the line producers said a bad vibe and then disappeared, so you know, it's like and also it's person to person. I don't

know what Anna Biller's directing style or personality is. The examples are too vague, but it does that's just like painted in my head of like yeah, just like your own crew is not aligning with your creative vision. That has to be so frustrating as long as you are treating your crew well, right, because you're just a different shape and a different like, they won't see you the same as they see a man, and so they're not

going to just intrinsically the way that things are. They will not treat you the same and you will not get the same respect, and so it is in earrently a different ballgame to direct as a woman, and I'm sure as as an Asian woman. Like it's like, um, do you know who you're talking to? Like this is the director of the movie? Like yeah, Like who said do you think you're on? Yeah? Yeah, who do you think is paying? Like who do you think your job

is coming from? Like yeah, I feel like it is Like that's like a conversation that I hope we keep having because it's like, I don't know, I mean, it is kind of a difficult thing to reconcile. And I mean I totally see where you're coming from. Caitlin's like we don't want to like judge directors on separate scales, like that's not fair. But then it's also like, but not being assist white guy making a movie is going

to affect your experience totally significantly. So it's just which again, I do want to like acknowledge and like take into consideration as I am judging a movie. I don't want to like ignore that or be like it doesn't matter. I'm just going to judge a movie because like the movie by the movie. But at the end of the day, there were just some movies that, yeah, like that just don't end up being for me, and all I have

to do is just not watch them. Ever again, I think it's just like the work of asking yourself, like, well, why isn't it for me? And if you hit a block there, if you're like, well, I just couldn't perfectly relate with the main character because they weren't exactly my

perspective or bah. Like if if you're hitting blocks that are you know, based on your own biases or your own unwillingness to learn about the experiences of others, Like yeah, sit yourself down in your little inner brain chamber and have a little talk like and that is a huge and I feel like that is like kind of in

conversation with what you're talking about. And and part of the reason it's so hard for marginalized creators to get projects funded is because there is such a like sis white male normative, like if a if a white guy can't enjoy your movie, then you don't get a movie. Sorry. Like but in this wait, it's like if you're if you ask yourself, which it seems like you very much have in the case of this movie, like why is

this movie not for me? And the answer is like I didn't like the writing and I it's not my genre. Then it's like, yeah, you're not, Like you're not going to go to hell, Like it's totally fine. I don't know. It's it's like it's a very It's like a similarly hard thing to grapple with as um being a hetero woman who likes the romantic attention of men. It's confusing, it's all complicated. We're all on a journey here, baby. Yes, I did want to shout out the cinematographer of this movie,

who is an icon. We've covered his work before. M David Mullen, a Japanese cinematographer. Check out this resume, Baby Aquila and the b Jennifer's Body and the Love Which amongst other but those were the three that jumped out to me as like, oh hell yeah that Debs he rocks, he rocks. Yeah, I mean Aquila and the Bat alone, and also a bunch of Madmen, a bunch of West world Sarah Silverman special, just like amazing work top to bottom. So I just wanted to shout out m David Mullen.

I just wanted to take a moment to give credit to a man brave. Yeah, But I was like, wait a second, the same guy who did the camera work on Aquila and the Bat which I we have to cover. We have to I can't believe we haven't covered Acula

Um Classic. I want to point out the heteronormativity and gender normativity, especially in the way that the characters discuss love and sex and romance and stuff, and again might bee that's part of the commentary and parody of it all, But all the love and sex that gets discussed in this movie only refers to hetero attraction between SIS men

and CIS women. Discussions around gender are always framed in a very kind of rigid binary of men and woman and not acknowledging anyone else on the gender spectrum um, which I do think that there could have been room for in this movie in terms of diversity and race, body type, and and I feel like, you know, I know that queer identities were like I almost went full boss and I was like wicked underrepresented in movies in

the sixties and seventies. But there's there was like queer b movie cinema that existed, Like there there was, there was definitely room for it, right, But and then well, I also have to kind of question, like, is the movie stylistically paying homage to that era and the movies that came out in that era an excuse for why I the movie looks like it does in terms of whiteness and body normativity and gender and heteronormativity. I don't know.

I don't feel like that's a very good excuse for a movie that comes out within the past five years. But I don't know. I would that's again, that's something that I would be interested in deferring to annabiller on because I do I'm like, I trust that she has a creative vision and if there's a question that it's like she's truly like, oh, I guess I wasn't thinking about that that hard and I don't have reasoning for it. Then it's like, okay, well then I'm criticizing you for that.

But yeah, I would I would be. This is just something that I was just like, I wish she would answer these questions. Maybe she has and we just don't know. Um. Does anyone have other thoughts about the movie? It's everything that I had. I don't think there's anything I loved. When she's burying way and her total tangent to talk about her cat that she misses so much, Like, yes, it's like my best friend. I was like, wow, feelings

seen girls. Uh yeah. There were a lot of moments in this movie that I thought were like very funny or like just I don't know, Like the moments where I did understand what was being referenced, I was like, who I love this ship. Um, And then there are other moments that I'm like, this is referencing something I'm assuming I don't know, but yeah, does it pass the Bachtel test? I believe it does a couple of times, not a ton of times, because it is mostly you know,

women talking about men. What were we talking about? Oh? Yeah, men? Yeah, but it does past a few times. It is like more on a technicality than I was expecting, honestly. But there is that whole I mean, there's that whole interest scene where Trish and Elane are meeting each other. They're talking about the house, They're talking about why did you move there? There, They're talking about a couple of things that are not about men, like it does is past

interior decorating. Yes, Elaine also talks to the which shop lady about selling her weares. Yes, but most of the conversations between Mary meeting Um, But most of the conversations between women are either directly about men or the subtext of the conversation is about using witchcraft to find hetero love with a man. Which makes sense, it's a story about a woman who is trying to find hetero love. But also why are so many movies where a woman

is the protagonist? About that? This movie broke my brain? Yeah, this movie, this is the movie that broke the podcast. Congratulations Annabellair, congratulations as the podcast broken. I'm so glad that that I got to bring this one. I am too, I really like i I'm this movie is going to like haunt me and I think in a in a generally positive way. I feel like there's gonna be a lot of listeners who are going to be like, Caitlin, you fucking asshole with your horrible opinions about this movie.

Very hard on yourself. I mean usually I am, yes, I don't know my again, my brain is broken, and let's rate it. Let's rade it. Let's rade it. Our nipple scale is zero to five nipples based on how

the movie fairs. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, here's what I'll say, Oh my god, ready, um knowing who made the movie and Annabeller being a very vocal, outspoken feminist and all of the work she put into it and the care she put into it, and what is clearly messages of the sexual of you know, women and fems, and how that's historically been feared and punished, and how it deserves to be empowered, and how there's

commentary on toxic masculinity and male fragility, how there's kind of this acknowledgement or maybe this was just my read of it, but open to interpretation, that it's exploring this kind of tug of war of like being a sexually liberated feminist person and also a heterosexual woman who is attracted to men, and how that can be confusing you. It's like, do you kill the men? Do you have sex with them? Why not? Boy? Cannot be both? Do you get into a relationship with them and then have

sex with them and then kill them? It could be everything, take anything off the table, and this movie certainly does not take any of those options off the table, right, So I think it's attempting to do some interesting things. I think that because the screenplay and just the way the story was crafted is muddled and dissonant. I found a lot of the messaging to get lost in that, and I feel like it wasn't as um again, not as effective commentary for me as it seems to be

for a lot of other people. And again that's probably that's just like a personal preference art being open to interpretation kind of thing. So I appreciate what it seems to be doing, and because of that, I will award the movie three nipples. Maybe that's too harsh, but that's what feels right to me at this time. Three nipples. I'll give one to Anna Biller's costume design. I'll give one too, Anna Biller's score, and I'll give one to the prop that is the used tampon that goes into

the witch bottle. I'm gonna go three and a half here. I here's what I think boiled down. The movie is too white and too straight even for the genre it is parodying for my personal preference, and that is kind of my biggest stumbling block with this movie. I don't see why there couldn't have been more characters and also like a body normative things we've we've discussed at this point in the episode, but I think that there was certainly more room even within the confines of what Anna

Biller was very clearly referencing. So that I think is my my main critique. Outside of that, I think like this is like a movie that I am very glad exists. I feel like the fact that it broke all of our brains in the way that it did actually speaks to the movie and speaks to the fact that it

is good that that like that. I'm that I'm very glad it exists because it's presenting, you know, in a in a very weird way that seems very inherent to like who this director is and how many women get to make very like weird movies exactly how they want to and while she, while she was certainly limited by budget, got to do the whole thing by herself and have it received with extremely open arms by the general public, which I feel like it's also unusual for marginalized oh twos,

where you feel like it's a more normal reception to be like, you know, white guy reviewers being like, well, I don't know what the funk that was about anyway, like you know, so I think that they're like, this movie has a lot going on, and the fact that like we were like like the different ways of navigating patriarchy, and again it is a very like how heterosexual women navigate the patriarchy. But but but even the shades of gray within that very specific group of people who are

overrepresentative movies. But to have that and have both of them sort of lose, it's frustrating, But it's also so reflective of what real life can be and except everyone is really sexy and wearing cool costumes, and so ultimately I think that it's I think it's definitely worth a watch if you enjoy like very I'm trying to think of the world like whatever The intellectual word for quirky is that, like the I like anachronistic. It's not that, but it sounds like that. Kitchen kitchi is kind of

what has in mind kitchy kitchen. It is definitely kitchy. I'm gonna think of this word in like three hours and then walking into traffic. But I'm very glad this movie because I think it's I mean, just based on the conversation we've had here alone, I would recommend watching and see what you think. Maybe I like it, maybe you won't. And that's just kind of art movies. Um, So I'll give it three and a half talking for the reasons described. I'll give one to Elaine. I'll give

one to Trish, I will give one to Annabiller. I'll give my last half to Elaine's cat that died, poor kitty, Melissa. What say you? I'm going a solid four nips? Wow, we really did the spectrum. You already gave a nip to Gray Malkins, so I'm gonna give Grat Malkin to just to like be extra. I think this movie is

so clever. I think it's so funny. I think that the satire of it it works so well for me, because there's just so much to pick apart, and it's not straightforward and you have to kind of look at

it for longer. And I can't remember the exact quote that Anna says um, but she said something about making it for the feminine gays and how she did a lot of artistry with the costumes and the sets and all of that so that you weren't just looking at the women's sexually being like, oh, she's a beautiful woman. It's like there's all of this other stuff to look at at the same time. So she wanted there to be like that to be part of it. But they're for they're time more to look at. So I think

it's I don't know. I just think it's such a great movie. I do want to share a quick quote from Annabeller from an article in The Guardian in which she's kind of talking about what she wanted to do with this movie and like different cinematic identities she wanted to reclaim as far as like archetypes and stereotypes and and and like things like that, as far as like female characters throughout cinema, and she says, or sorry, so sorry,

this is talking about what Annabeller wanted to do. So it's not a direct quote from her, but it says that she quote cites other female movie types whose voices she would like to reclaim, the sexually aggressive, confident women of the pre Hayes Code era, when many more screenwriters were women, film noir fem fatales such as and Savage in Detour and Jane Grier in Out of the Past

projections of male postwar anxiety and misogyny. And then she says, quote, I'm doing that with the Love, which reclaiming the figure of the which the fem fatale, an old sort of male fantasy figure, and make it a fem fatale seen from the female side unquote. So you know, I appreciate that. I get what she's doing. Caitlin, It's okay you didn't like the movie with that alysta. Where can we find your online? Where can we follow you and follow your work?

You can find me omg Chump on Twitter and Instagram, and you can find my work at Krypt t v on Twitter and Instagram. It's krypt t v. And you can also watch Girl in the Woods, which is our new show coming on Peacock this October, and the whole show centers around a queer love triangle and a non binary person coming out and girls kiss in the first episode. That's all I'm gonna say. It's spooky, it's fun. I

think it's got something for everybody. Yes, everyone, be sure to check out The Girl in the Woods on Peacock TV, which drops October twenty one, which, depending on the release date of this episode, might be today, So check it out. Uh And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. And of course there's our Patreon a k a Matreon, which is found at patreon dot com, slash pecktel Cast. It's five dollars a month. It gets you to this episodes per month and also the entire

back catalog. Love it. You can get merch at t public dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And the last thing I'll say is everything I didn't like about this movie or the moments I didn't like where when I felt like I was watching a Lanta del Rey music video and that I feel like I'm like, well, I'm bringing my biases to the table as well. Sure, sure, okay, bye bye,