On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante and my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is part two of our Lord of the Rings Trilogy episode. Hey, Caitlin, did you know that movie trilogy is really fucking long?
I did know that that past the Bechdel Test. If you don't know what that is, get with the program. Just kidding, But if you haven't listened to episode one of the Lord of the Rings podcast, we recommend you know, maybe go back to part one, listen to it through
and and this is part two. I mean, if you just want to listen to this one, that would sort of be like starting in the middle of Lord of the Rings two Towers and then only watching that and which, honestly, not to betray my opinion of this trilogy, would be totally fine. Nothing happens the entire movie, that doesn't even matter. Disagree, All kinds of things happen, clearly you don't remember Golem
trying to anyway. So this is part two. If you haven't listened to part one, we recommend going and doing that first. But otherwise do you you do, you your body, your choice. Here's part two. So that brings us to a Owen. She is introduced for the first time in the second movie. She is the niece of King Theodin of Rohan. Why did their names rhyme? Like we said, her whole thing is that she wants to fight. All
the men get to fight. Women are you know, perceived as being helpless in this universe and that they have to be protected. But she is a skilled sword fighter and she wants to do her part in this fight, in this war, this impending war. Right, But then she meets Ericorn and she's like, who's that? And now all of a sudden, there's a love triangle between Ergorn, Arwyn and Awen that has almost no tension in it. There. This is like the most boring love triangle in the
entire world. It is because it's so clear that Airgorn is not interested. Right from moment one and again, in the same gender neutral way that this whole story plays out, we see her hurt being rejected by Vigo Mortensen, as everyone at the table knows we've all been rejected. It doesn't feel great and feel great, but he's not mean
to her. It's not and and there's never a particular sexual tension between them in the first place, so it's almost just like it's a crush that is unrequited, and so that is not particularly compelling to watch, right, But like this introduction of like her really kind of falling in love with him or maybe just having like a crush does not need to be there. She serves another function in the story. So for her to also be in love with them, man, I think like really sells
out her character. And and we also get one of my favorite sellouts of the female character who is allowed to do anything. Because I think Aoen by far is the most active for female character and she still basically has no my fact on the plot, but you know,
she's the most active by far. And there's that scene where she has a sword and it's the first time we're seeing her wheeled a sword and airgorn like notices and it's like, hey, you can do what the boys do, and she's like, I know, pretty cool, right, But I'll
be humble and shy about it. And then because he's the I think that we're to believe because he's the first man who has acknowledged she's doing it at all and doesn't really say, like, you're really good at that, and I respect you, but he doesn't not say that, And I think that that is like for us, supposed to be the entry point of like she likes him because he's the only man she's ever met who hasn't nagged her for her interests. I think that that's like
the root of her interest in him. It's like, well, he didn't say I sucked like every man in my life does, so I guess I love him. It's true. I'm just like, are you not yelling at me? Cool? We're married? Um. And then there's more to talk about with her character, but where her story ends. In the one of eight hundred conclusions of this trilogy, she gets paired up with Ferremir because Ericorn rejects her, so she has to end up with some man. So they placed
her next to Faremere. They might they give each other a little like CD. I. I think there's a moment in I hate that, like the last minute, like don't worry. She's still gonna a guy. He's like, oh no, we weren't freaking out about it. Actually we were fined. So they get paired up and head her own normativity is alive and well, so I kind of want to just kinda go through to the movies and point out a few different things we see in terms of, you know,
the gender dynamics. So in the Fellowship of the Ring again we opened with a woman's voice. We've got gladiol being sort of place like omniscient narrator. Like the narration is very inconsistent in the movie. That definitely, and then when she does appear on screen again throughout the movies, it's it's seldom happens, and then it's it's again to
deliver exposition narrator. I r L. Yeah. So I mean, I guess you could argue that it's cool that like a woman is given like an omniscient point of view sort of, but no, yeah, there there is a retelling of this movie that puts her as the omniscient being, because that's really what was implied. I think to a degree, like this is giving it too much credit. But by making her the narrator, it's as if she's like speaking
like this is how it all happened. So maybe in the future of Earth, she became the king of the world. She became the storyteller. She's like, hey, everybody, you want to hear a story about five guys I met. She becomes the new Gandalf, and that's kind of what he does, right, Yeah, it'll take ten hours of your time. Learn's like, no,
I don't, I'm good ace. Um. There is a moment very early on in the first movie where like Gandalf is like riding through the shire and um, there's like all these children who are like cand off play some fireworks and he's like okay, and then there's like a hobbit couple and the man is like, t he I like fireworks too, And then his wife shows up and she's scowling because women be shrews, as we know, and then he has to pretend like he's not having fun
and not enjoying the fireworks. And it's supposed to be like this ha ha comical moment, but the first depiction of a woman you see on screen is a shrewish hobbit lady. So I feel like that really sets the tone for the whole and aren't wait a minute, And that doesn't make any sense because Hobbits are supposed to be so joyful, love fun. Exactly what was this woman crashed in the party for. Well, she's a woman, so
she can't have fun. She can't have fun. Women are not having fun in this in this series, so you're not giggling. Then, well, I guess they go to Bilbo's party. Yeah, but that's a few minutes of screen time and then we hardly see those characters again. Sam's wife has fun, she had a lot of kids. Yeah, once she starts t shirt gunning out Sam's kid. Yeah, that's actually in the extended version. I saw you see Sam's wife give birth, and it's it's like a machine gun of baby. Progressive
moment in cinema. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they show it from below. Yeah, basically a biology Yeah, that's and that's in the three D version. That is in the three D it's we're more like Hobbits than you would think when you see it up close. It's okay. When we first meet our went on screen again, it's not until over an hour into the movie it's established that she and Agorn know each other, but it's not We're not quite sure how or what in what context.
Her introduction is a little cool because we do meet her by her holding a sword up to Aragorn's neck very hot. Yes, so she is threatening his life. But then a few scenes later you're like, oh, they're basically engaged to be married. So so it was just like it was like a little thing they were doing. I mean, I wasn't into Vigo watching that movie, but I think my little whatever I was nine years old self, was like, yeah,
You're like, oh, this is kind of what's happening. And then but then think about this later, You're like, it's gonna be a few years before I can unpack this fully. So then a few moments later in the movie, she's like riding up on a horse. There's like angelic music. Her dress is white, even though when it cuts to a moment later in the Dame exact scene, she's wearing a different dress. But she's like she comes in as this like angel savior to like save Photo's life. She's
literally glowing. She and Galadriel are never not glowing, although Gandalf glows too. Sometimes Gandolf does glow, he has but but he does, but never when he's gand off the way for that one scene, but most of the time we see him on screen, he's he's dull, I mean, and to be fair, all men are dull and all women are radiants and perfect. True, however, and also the we we don't see women who are not fabulously wealthy
and conventionally attractive glow. We do not see poor people when when there are women on screen who are meant to be poor, they do not glow. Habit, women do not glow. Yeah, like if you are hot, hot royalty, you glow. And even then it's I feel like the only reason that a Owen is not depicted in this way as because with Arwin and Galadriel, they're supposed to be these like virginal women and objects of desire, where we're I sort of interpreted. We're intended to see Aoen
a Owen Ewen McGregor. We're supposed to see a o En as more of a girl. I don't think we're encouraged to view her as like a sexual being in the same way we're encouraged to see the other two. But make no mistakes, she's still part of a royal family. Because her uncle is the king, so she's still she's royalty, and she's still conventionally, by Western beauty standards attractive. We only get beautiful women. And the range in male characters. I mean, I know that's a complaint on all movies,
but the range in male characters. Man, you have a whole species of thing that is ugly. Yet I mean there's there. There is every well, I mean you can't extend it to color. There are white men of every shape and size in this film franchise. There's every kind of white man you get ever in counter in your
entire life. You got Legless, you got the hacker, you got you got you fro, you got fig wit, you got fig With the Brett mackenzie character, there's short hair, there's also long hair's hairy feet, there's smooth feet, old
not old. Wizards sometimes not wizards. The next thing that I think is worth noting that happens in the first movie is that we learn about the Urquai and how they exist, which is that Saramon, the bad Wizard, not to be confused with Sorrow on the Eye, is breeding orcs and goblin men to make this like super race of crazy warriors like eight fighters, all this stuff. They take women out of the equation. There does not need
to be wounds. They are born as adults. They hatch, they hatch out of this pile of mud poop, mud, placenta, placent I wouldn't give it placenta. There's no placenta there, right, it's just like a pile of mud. That love that band mud lists are known. There's some like saran wrap covered in muddy poop, and that they break out of that and suddenly they're born, so that like, sure, sure, that's how you breed urakai fun way to cut women
out of the narrative. Maybe, I mean this is also anti feminist, but maybe the implication is that because they're making the worst kind of obedient like creature, they can't have women that would be too good. But you know that puts that's not Yeah, I'm reaching. Why am I
trying to defend? Why am I trying to defend the ranks because it doesn't deserve but there but this is the kind of I think this is definitely the kind of like franchise that you try to find a way to want to defend because it isn't aggressive towards women, it just leaves them out, and so it's harder. I feel like it's a little harder to reconcile. Yeah, it's not offensive, it's not grotesquely offensive. It's just so so
the Silent Killer. Yeah. Um. And then there's there's a fun moment in a Rivendell, one of the Elf cities, where Gandef is like, hey around, Actually it's like men folk who we should like be trusting and like putting our faith in men to rule the fate of you know, Middle Earth. Did he mean gender men or human name, like the race of men as opposed to the race of elves or so that's what he means. But then l Ron responds men men are weak. So I think
l Rond is a feminist icon. This is just feminist icon l Rond, but which sounds a little too much like l Ron Hubbard. I keep wanting to say l Ron Hubbard n one name. Yeah. So that's for me that those were like the notable things in terms of gender in the first movie where we're introduced to Arwin and glad Reel there for the most part, sideline, they have so little screen time that you forget that they exist they're both like these like fair maiden, virginal, angelic,
willowy creatures. Yes, you're like, oh, I wonder if this movie cares about women or not, and then you remember not even a little bit. Um. So then we get into the Two Towers, and this is when we meet a win and that's when it's established that she's both a good fighter, but also she is horny for Aragorn for I mean reasons that we've argued could makes sense, but there's really no reason for her narratively to be
interested in Airgorn. Like that that choice was made, you know, I guess to just like, oh, well, there's a woman in a story, and there's head normativity all around us, so let's make sure that she's in love with air Gorn so that we can have a love triangle. I don't know if that happens in the books or not. If you're if you're a fan of the books or you've read the books, um tweet at us and let us know if this love triangle was set up in the books or if this is just a change made
in the film adaptation. I'd be interested to know that because I'm sort of skeptical. I feel like it was something that was added into the movies just to just to make it so yeah. Yeah, So we learned that she wants to fight and that, you know, that's her whole thing, which I think is cool. I agree that she is the most active character. She has the most agency of any of the other female characters, which is not hard because there's only two other ones and they're
basically pointless to the story. We do meet her uncle, Theaden, who is E. J. Smith from Titanic. Oh, I forgot about that major twist. The best tressed load of the rings is that they captain from Titanic. Where's a wig and it um. Then there's a scene where Gimley the Dwarf is talking to a Owen and he's like, it's true,
you don't see many dwarf women. In fact, they are so like in voice and appearance they are often mistaken for dwarfmen, which hack that I mean the whole the whole way that dwarves are portrayed at moments in this franchise. I think that there are moments where dwarves are portrayed as better but ultimately kind of offensive to the little
person community. I'd be interested in, like reading thoughts that either the actors or just the reaction to that community, to Dwarves as a whole, because I know that Dwarves taken even larger role in the Hobbit franchise. Yeah, that's I feel like that's like, I mean to for sure the shad they went to battle. Yeah, I think I mistakenly referred to them as Hobbits earlier when I was talking about Hobbits. But there to confuse, what are so what are dwarfs known for? What are there like trade
in this world? They're basically capitalists because they hang out in their minds mining their precious jewels and gold and all of that stuff. They don't want to be troubled with the outside world. They're really just content to be confined to their caves and there, you know, mountains where all their treasures are. So that's the rules that are. That's like, I think that's like literally what l Rond says, He's like, they cared nothing for the troubles of men.
Do they die when they go to that place? There are yes, Um, I don't think the Dwarf race is wipe out completely. But when they go to the minds of Maria in the first movie. Yeah, all of the dwarfs there have been slaughtered by goblins, So yeah, we don't there's more minds, I think. I'm not really sure. Again, I only know what's talked about in the movies, So if there's other information that's in the books, I don't
know about that. So I guess what I'm wondering is, Yeah, I get that those traits don't really mean anything in terms of the gender dynamics. But on the one hand, if men look like women in dwarf communities, that's interesting. But also the way he's saying it is like if you don't look like a conventionally attractive, tall white woman, I thought that was the implication. Yeah, once again, I don't know how to make sense of it. Lord of the Rings Apologist, you should see me watch West World.
I I can't. I mean, I can't imagine you watching Smiles, thanks alcohol and SMI is a woman. Smile is voiced by Benedict Comback. Never mind, you're right mixing it up with the dragon Strick. Oh yeah, yeah, because they look super alike. I know that. Oh yeah, well, the whole dragon is a woman with Donkey, very feminist. We talked about that in our Struck episode did really yeah, oh yeah,
strongest female character in the franchise. So while we're like hanging out with a win Aergorn is all like, here's this new woman. How do I feel about this other woman that I know? And we see different flashbacks where Ericorn is basically like, we can't be together. You shouldn't sacrifice yourself for me, telling her like, let's end this without really like checking in to see like how she
feels about the situation. Elrond is all I Airgorn is gonna die no matter what, and you're going to be sad about it, and then you're gonna have to live on forever being sad because apparently when your loved one dies and then you keep living, you mourn forever. There's
no way to get over it. And she'll just spend her the rest of her immortal life in mourning because you know, she's just so sad that a man dies that she has to basically just like kneel by his grave forever and that's the only thing that she can do, is what the movie is, you know, suggesting will happen. Um. But then she she keeps telling people like, no, I've
made my choice. This is what I choose. But no one like l rond Ergorn, they do not respect her choice, and they keep trying to convince her to choose something else. I mean, it's her choice. Do I think it's a good choice personally? Not especially? And also it's like the choice foisted upon her by well, I don't know, it's a choice voiced upon her by two women and a man. Because the Arwin story that's not you, that's, to my understanding,
is not Tolkien. That's like something introduced into the narrative by the movie which is written. Yeah, yeah, I really Now I want to know what that process was. Okay, first of all, we've been over this a bit. It was the time there is like a conventional wisdom, and there was more so than to how movies were written, where it was like in those blockbusters, you must have
love triangles, and I mean that's still true. Yeah. And if women are introduced because they're not the protagonists in this heteronormative space, well what else are you gonna do with them? Right? Like? What function could they serve besides being in love with a man? I want to live in a world and I'm sure because this this franchise is so intensely documented that perhaps there are other drafts
of scripts available. But I like, I mean, because there's so much leather rings media, I would love for there to be a world where the female screenwriters pushed a more progressive female narrative. But because it was two thousand one, the studio said no. At least there was an effort made to give but you know, that's just that's dream. But it is something to consider, Like, the studio definitely
had some impact on this script, I hope. So. I mean, it's the narrative now that every time I see a movie that doesn't treat women well or at all that is written by a woman, I sort of go to.
We talked about this in the Frozen episode a little bit where there's for some reason, it's very well documented how many notes the writer of Frozen, woman named Jennifer Lee, got during the course of making that movie, where the original way the story was written was way more aggressive, and it's pretty well documented where she was getting the notes of like this has to change, or we're not going to make it. This has to change. That's great.
That makes me feel better in some at least gives you some hope in that you're like, writers do want to tell these stories. It's not that they don't want to tell it, it's that men with a lot of money usually don't want to show it. Yeah, I don't. It's an empty It does give me some piece, I will say, it does give me some peace. Hopefully these like studio heads will start to learn that we're die honestly,
probably die first. They will likely die before they respect women and then hopefully be replaced by more progressive people who are willing to fund movies that showcase women in a more positive light and you know, not adhere to such rigid gender rules. Here's hoping. And with that, let's take a quick break and then we will be right back. Good idea, Klin, thank you so. A little bit more
about what happens in the Two Towers. We are hanging out with a win a little bit and they're heading to helms Deep because all the people of Rohan are in danger because there's sarmons like launching an army on them,
basically classic class. He loves unleashang. So they get attacked by some orcs on these ward creatures and uh, Theadin's are like a win like lead the people to Helm's Deep because the men will fight, and she's like, no, I can stay in fight, and he's like no. So she's like trying to make a choice, like trying to be active in the story, and a man is like, no, sorry, you can't. You have to take all the women and children who are so vulnerable and um put them in
caves so that they can be protected. He um. So that's pretty much her role for the rest of the movie is that she is stuck in a cave with all of the other women because she is not allowed to fight. Meanwhile, Legolis and Ghimli are making a literal game out of war. They're like, let's see who can kill more people? Won't that bring some levity to war? Yes,
well kill more kind of people. Yeah. The ural Kai, although, is there like a racial thing we should address with that, because I just call them kind of people and I'm like, well, okay, yeah, let's let's try to unpack the racism and the Lord of the Rings trilogy for a moment. We can start with the racist hierarchy of wizards. In the books, there are like brown wizards and they're a lower class uh.
And then there's gray wizards and they're above brown, and then the white wizards are the highest class with the wizard hierarchy. My understanding was the goal is to get as white as possible exactly. Yes, literally, the wher you get, the more powerful you are. So that does not set a great precedent right away. The goblins, the Orcs, the uru Kai, like all the bad guys generally have darker skin compared to all of the good guys in the movie, which are you know, men, The Hobbits, the dwarves, the
elves are all white as can be. Oh, there's a fun video where you can see a super cut of all of the lines in the whole Lord of the Rings trilogy spoken by actors who are people of color. Believe it or not, they all play bad guys. And it's only it's like less than a minute long. It's just some of the uru Kai who are like get a fire going, and that's pretty much. It's so no,
it's so much worse than I want to believe. Also, so in the second and third movie, the bad guys and more door are recruiting mercenaries to like fill out their army of orcs, so we do see some human people but all of their like recruits are dark skin brown, come from land's foreign to whatever, like Anglo Saxon esque fantasy world that Middle Earth is. It's so vague. It's
like it's so racist vague. And Peter Jackson makes the same huge misstep in King Kong, which is like at its core, the racist story that won't die, Like why do they keep making that? There are some things that keep getting rebooted there like this time we're going to fix the root problem. I was like, you can't. That's what the story is about, just make a different one,
making a different one. And there is like a weird attempt to like have quote unquote racism where dwarves and elves hate each other because when we first meet Gimleian Leglis, they're like, oh, gross dwarf and he's like, I'll never hang out with an elf, and then they become friends by the end and they're like, well, it's weird because
it's like you can read. I think Tolkien probably meant for this to be an allegory towards groups within humanity and like demographic groups, but it's weird when you do that. And I don't think that Lord of the Rings stands alone in this I think I think a lot of fantasy fiction falls into this trap. But it's weird when you're allegory is like, look at our divisions and factions and prejudices, except we're going to erase any people of
color and we get all white right. Like it almost seems like these narratives are attempting to be like, let us put this in terms, you are comfortable with white people and all like in in the same you know, like batch of scenes completely disparaged the only people of coloring the entire movie. Oh man, I can't call them not quite people and what kind of people? Oh and so yeah, between all of that and the fact that pretty much every good guy in the movie has blue eyes,
Like not that many people in the world have. Like the ratio of blue eyed people to non blue eyed people in Middle Earth is like fifty two one. Sorry to our blue eyed listeners. I I see you, I respect you, I cherish you. I'm not sorry, guys. I'm also half Swedish, so like I have a loud of resentment toward blue eyes, you know, because I didn't get them, which is fine, I'm fine with it now. But when I was in middle school. You better believe I wore contact like I did. Yeah. My mom was like, you
want to fix it. You can get highlights too, and I did. She was, you know, she just wanted to make me more arian. I don't think there's anything wrong with that because you're part Cuban r Yeah, she wanted to stamp out the bad part. To know, the Cuban part is great. Uh, Like, I'm getting myself in trouble. It's hard to on this show. It is so hard to not dig yourself a holeway do it regularly. It is a part of the process. We contain multitudes. I'm problematic,
you know what. I love Orlando Bloom He's like kind of trash. The rumor is that he just undresses all the time, which you've what like, he he just gets naked. That's why there is that photo of him naked on the paddle boat or whatever the picture. Yeah, because he is. It's like a known thing in dressing rooms that he just strips down doing hair and makeup, which comfortable. Yeah, you're that's sexual harassment. Yeah, but me hearing that at eleven, I would have been like, that's so I want to
see that. Yeah, they're so open with his co star. Yeah, oh my god, I wish I could be in a movie with him where he's naked. So jealous of a live tyler. All right, she doesn't kids under my Lecholis doesn't kiss. He's a hacker in this he literally doesn't get me. He's too busy. He's like, where our computers? Computers to be invented already? He probably invents computers in this world. We don't. We don't have learning before, but
if we did, it's called Legois Colon hacker. He's certainly got the bandwidth for it because he's not interested in the emotions of others and has no romantic interest. He's like, like, do you remember the party with legolists that made me? I was like, oh, he's a hacker. Was right after Gandolf was like see yeah, and you know Free fell off a cliff and everyone thought he was dead. Everyone is displaying emotion in the way their character would. Hobbits
are openly crying. Are Gorn is like he's over it? Gimli is crying yeah. The Legolis is just standing there like where are you people cry? He's like, I'm not gonna He's like, I'm not gonna right for a couple of days, and even then it will be by myself, like I'm a hacker. Quick thing to bring up the Hobbit again. There is like a love triangle that involves him and that tari Al character that gets shoehorned into the Hobbit trilogy. So I thought maybe Leglis was a sexual,
but he is. Um. I prefer Legolis who does not fuck. I think so too. I think that was his official title. Yeah, Leglis who does not fun Colan hacker, son of Megalis who did fun to have or maybe this is just the correct combination of Zeros and once he was made by a computer. I think Saron is a computer. Okay, all right, Saron who does not have blue eyes? He has one eye and it is red yellow fire eye it is. But what was it before that? Right? We
don't seek he's wearing a mask. But a few things also to mention that happened in Return of the King Um about a half hour in our way is she has made a decision, going against her previous decision to go to elf Heaven after all. And then that's when she sees the vision of Airgorn and her small child, and she decides to turn back, and she's like, well, if I have the chance to be a mom, I'm gonna go and do that, and I better have a son, right, Motherhood is great. I have a mother and um not
like you guys. So I'm not trying to disparage mothers in any way or motherhood, but it's so often that a woman's motivation in a movie is motherhood and if she isn't a mother, and it's just like, really, I don't West Girls are problematic show that I constantly apologize for and for sadger to watch. But Bandy Newton's characters motivated by a child that is fate that like they designed for her to have. It's some planted memories and they still ran with it to the end. Right Computers.
Similar thing happens in like Kill Bill, where as soon as the bride finds out that she is pregnant, she's like, well, I have to drop everything and become a mother, even though I had never expressed that I wanted to be a mother up until now. So it's just a thing we a trope we see in a lot of movies and media where it's just like, you know, a woman, the idea of motherhood if that is an option for her.
She's like, oh my god, Like this is motivating my every decision, especially because we know so little about our win Outside of that, that's like I think that's the main deciding thing. It's like, it's, you know, obviously, if you want to be a mother, that's totally fine, and like we we at the Bechtel Cast will not prevent you from doing so. I will, but I mean I will. I've I've stopped a lot of pregnancies, but not abortion or anything. Just like I've come in and stopped it
from coming out. Yeah, She's like, because I will just turn on West World and all of a sudden, no one will be horny anymore. I'm so many orgies I have killed putting on the finale of West World the worst episode. But because we know nothing else about our win, that's why that choice is so lazy. Yes, right, Um. And then the big thing, the big you know, gender thing that happens and the whole freaking trilogy is when a Wyn disguises herself as a man, she puts on
this big helmet. Yeah, yeah, exactly. She pick she picks up Mary. She's like, we're going to fight in battle together. No one wants us to, no one's allowing us to do this case be moushoe. Is that the dragon? Yes, m dragon, yes, yes, sorry, I need to make this move, I understand, have you guys done? So? Okay. So then so they ride into battle together, even though everyone's like women can't fight, and she's like, well, funk all that funk the patriarchy. I'm going to fight in this war anyway.
And it's been established that the King of the Nasal, the Ring Wraiths, he he's a bad guy. But you said ring Raiths as if it was it would make us understand, like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know the Ring Ring, right, you know. I was like, yeah, yeah, So the King of the Nasgal his whole thing that's silly. Okay, sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. So the whole thing with him is that he is unkillable. No living man can kill him, is what is said in the movie.
So in battle at the end of the Return of the King, Awen is fighting. She is slinging her sword around. She's bad, guys, sort of. We don't get to see her fight that much. But then she is confronted the King of the Nascal. I don't know if he's named but not. He's right there and she's like, oh shit. She chops off the head of his like whatever dragon not smiled, but whatever flying winged creature that he is on.
They fight a little bit and he's like, you idiot, no man couldn't kill me, And she's like She pulls off her mask and she's like I am no man stabs him through the face. His head implodes. John Jams start playing It's crazy. So this is I think, supposed to be this like big empowering moment for women where it's like, holy crap, we thought that he couldn't die, but she was a woman, so she can kill him. Voice the rules of this God. The rules of this make no sense and are not explored at all, but
we're still supposed to be like, holy freaking crap. I hate when a movie is requesting that I emptily yes queen at the screen without using my brain. I don't like it. It is one of the things that annoys me most in movies. I hate it, but sometimes it works on me. Sometimes it works, and then I get even madder at myself. Later, Man, you fell for it, you got represented, you get too excited. You didn't realize
it and make a fucking sense. Yeah. Yeah, it feels empty because logically this doesn't really make any sense, like why would a female identifying person be able to kill something that a male identifying person isn't able to kill? Like these rules are just like not explored at all, and it it feels like a hollow victory. Here's my apology of it. Maybe it's the myth is that no one can kill him, No man can kill him because he's such a good fighter. But he finally met the
best fighter who can kill him. But that doesn't This gets back to another thing that annoys me and with female characters. How could she be the best fighter if no one formally really ever taught her. This is her first time in battle, ever fight costume to fight the first time she's done it, that's true. I guess she never says this is my first rodeo. He would have tips. That I hate is that she gives it all up
to be with Faremire at the end. Right, Yeah, so she's got her like hollow yes queen moment in the end of the third movie. And then yeah, and then she becomes like sort of like a fair maid and like the rest of them where it's like, oh, well, my role now that there's no wars to be had, I can just hang out with this faremire guy and fair was considered for this role interesting too powerful. Now
they're like, she's her face is too sharp. She is she looks like we need someone who looks more submissive. That's literally what it says. She looked too mean. And I was like, oh, I love when people to say this woman looks too mean. Yeah, people said that to me all the time. I have resting mean face. And um, anyway, I think you have a resting great face. Thank you, And if you don't want to be happy, it's still great. I know. Thank you so much. Hey, let's take a
quick break and then we'll be back. One more thing on on a and I'm reading is According to the DVD commentaries, an entire set piece firmare au En wedding scene was actually filmed and ultimately cut and not even included in the extended edition, Nor have any photos of the scene ever been made public, but the scene has been described by multiple sources of they went so far as to have them get married on screen, so well, at least they cut it from the movie, but also
the fact that they considered it to the extent where they wrote and filmed it is troubling. Come on, well, I what money are they rolling with where they were just like, we're not even gonna show this scene to anyone? Was it the whole thing? I don't know. I'd be curious that, Like, maybe that's again, I keep going back to the female screen rights. Maybe they're like no, but it already got past them because they built a set,
damn it. Maybe hey, maybe there was a female producer at the last minute who was like, we can't and that was like her falling on the sword, like that was the last the only thing she could say, right, And her name was Uma Thurman, also Owen and fair
mirror Mary in the books. Apparently great, so he has to end up with a man, maybe not the one she wanted originally, but you know, you can't be a woman in a story without ending up with him hand and this is ironic, Okay, faremir and a o And had at least one sin l Baron and their grandson was Bara Here who wrote the Tale of Eric Gorn and Arwin. Oh, why was her grandkid being like, remember this guy and my grandma didn't fuck. Here's a story
about him and his wife. Well weird. Do you think they passed on the lore of like, well, grandson, there was a man I wanted to fuck, but didn't pass on this legacy to grandpa, like you know who? I was my first choice, Not this guy. I hope, So, I really hope. So wait. I just remembered a female character that we did not talk about yet. Oh my god, the dead bones of the dwarf who died she Lob the spider. The pronouns used for she lab are female pronouns. So I think what we can say here is for
she lab feminist icon. No, no one in this movie. I didn't even talk about feminist. So cute is a queer. I love him. He's so gone, is so expressive, and his eyes are so big, and he has this gigantic head. I love him. I just need everyone to know. Of course, I had a crush on Golub and I don't understand so he's always He's and Andy genius. No, but Caitlin can let's not. I No, you do it. You assumed the position. I'll do it, and then I'll probably cut
this out. Okay, Well, do you want to hear gall lumber? Do you want to hear I'd surprised us. Yeah, okay, here we go. Um My, Bresh, it was perfect. It's perfect. Oh yeah, that's perfect. It's not great. It's not my best work. Give yourself some credit. Yeah, we've been talking for a very long time. I feel like we need to wrap up. We didn't talk about did we talk about the mom On the right? There is two female characters with lines. Well, should we talk about whether or
not this movie passes the pectel tests? Yeah, I guess that fits in. Okay, so there is one Well, there's two scenes that are contenders. So let's try to figure this out. In two towers. The second movie, Orcs and Oroquai are invading Rohan, and there's a mother. It's it's a it's a horse country. Um, it's where it's where Captain E. J. Smith of the Titanic, that's his realm and his wig and his wig right the way that controls his thoughts. So they're about to get invaded by
the bad guys. And there's a mother who says to her son and her daughter. She's talking to the boy at first, and she says, get on the horse with your sister and go to someplace and raise the alarm, and the little girls like, I don't want to leave. I don't want to go, mama, And the mom says Freda. So we find out her name, Freda, I will find you there, and then that's it. And then they ride off on the horse, and we do find out what
her name is in terms of the character. But I don't think it's ever spoken a lot by the movie. I don't think it is either. So yeah, I would argue that that I wanted it to pass. But I think if we're going by the movie, I don't buy the arguments, like, well, she had a name in the book, and it's like, so did Brett Mackenzie's character, and people just renamed him fig Wit for no reason. Also, well, if you consider the subtext of this conversation, like the context.
In the subtext, she's basically telling them to leave because there are several male warriors coming about to like raid their village. Yeah, you shall not pass the test. In the scene, right, you shall not pass. That's my Gandolf impression also very good, okay um. And then later in the second movie, Freda is eating soup somewhere in Rohan, Aowen is there, Freda says where is Mama? Aowen says sh And that's that conversation. That is as close as
we get because those characters are both named. But I would argue that a Owen that is technically a conversation. That's it's communication, communications, verbal communications, a line of dialogue. It depends. I would say, no, here, okay, I'm gonna go and say this movie does not pass the backtel test because even if you wanted to argue the technicalities, there's thirty seconds or less of this movie of women interacting in a movie that is over nine hours long
shall not pass. Yeah, so this movie does not pass, even though it maybe seems like it comes close. And also, when we say movie, we mean three full three hour bucking movies. We didn't have We didn't discuss one conversation that happens in the first three and a half hour movie. There's nothing to discuss. And those characters, the mother and her daughter afraid to only appear in those two scenes. They have no bearing on the story, like their scenes going to be cut from the movie. Uh, and it
really wouldn't change anything. So yeah, the movie doesn't even pass. I guess to up the stakes of the people of Rohan. But yeah, so I'm going to say that this movie does not pass. And of course that's not surprising at all because there are so few women in this entire world of Middle Earth. It's weird because my ex boyfriend's mom was named Darwin because her parents loved Lord of
the Rings. Yeah, but how sad too. She was named after this like deeply unfeminist movie by like a very minor, minor character who gets her parents were like, she's a feminist icon because she's there, because she's literally we had three choices. We did what we could do. Gladriel was too hard to say. Awen is a ejjectively not a very good name name. Oh hell, gang shall rerate the movie on our nipple scale. Hey, what choice do we have? We don't have a choice. Yeah. Our nipple scale is uh.
We rate each movie based on its portrayal and representation of women zero to five nipples. I'm between a zero and a half nipple. I'll go with a half nipple. The movie has a few women in it, great, um, not enough, not enough screen time. I guess that it gets a half nipple instead of his zero nipples because of a Owen's presence in this story and the fact that she has a goal outside of being in a romantic relationship with a man. Also, glad Reel doesn't have
that goal, but she's basically there's an exposition. Yeah, she has no goals, So a Owen has as a little bit of agency. But it just everything feels like a hollow victory with her and with every female character in the story, just because they're mostly framed around the other men in the story. There's a love triangle that makes no sense to be there. Glad Reel serves a pretty flimsy function just to like deliver exposition, and she has
pretty much no bearing on the story. Like it's just it's upsetting, Like, like you said, Jamie, that movie isn't outwardly hateful toward women, and then it's not like saying, oh, women are gross and bad, but it's also not giving them any chance to do anything in the narrative. So yeah, I'll give it a half nipple, um, even though I think that's being generous and my half nipple will go
to small. I canna give it one head of one nipple because I can't give it zero because it's, like you said, it is not a franchise that is openly contemptuous of women. But I think that there is the argument that in some ways it that's even a little bit worse because at least when you revisit a problematic film franchise, you're just like, oh, I don't want any part of this anymore. This is out of my life.
And hopefully, if history continues in the direction it is, it will be a franchise that is by the way, so I've forgotten because people just don't want to see that anymore. But with this film franchise, because it does not put women down and just ignores them, it won't go away. There's not enough of a reason for people who enjoy these movies to not continue to watch them, because they're not espousing, you know, like bile at you.
They're not they're not saying shitty things. They're just erasing. And that is almost like a little bit worse because it's like, these movies will never go away. There's nothing, you know, because on paper, they're like, well, you didn't say anything bad. They just erased everyone. They didn't want their um So that sucks. I guess a o en and that's why one tenth of one nipple and I'm giving it to smount you know, uh, well, you know what I am going to give this. You gave it
a half, you gave it a tenth. I'll give it like a fourth of a nipple, because I do think a one's a wins. Uh you and McGregor, that moment is something I think it's very hollow. It's but it's what so many movies do where it's like, here's something. It's what the entire movie of Wonder Woman kind of was. Yeah, it felt kind of like I want to revisit Wonder Woman because I think even a year later, I would feel it different. And I was riding a high at the time. Oh I think I cry I'm watching it
because I was like, this is beautiful. But that's the thing when I watched Lord of the Rings then versus now, then, I was like, oh cool, this is fine, no problem. B Glade Drill talks a lot, and there is a step worse, which is Master and Commander, which has no women except for once, and it's when they're like googling and they're like a hot woman, what about the latest and then there's the latest Chris Nolan movie, Boy City. Yes,
also Dunker Ocean Ocean Full of Boys. Yeah, well, at least like Master and Commander has been forgotten, like no one revisits that Dunkirk. I don't think anyone's going to be like Boy Ocean forever. I don't think hopefully, hopefully they have the same fate. But yeah, so I think there is a step worse. Can't give it a zero. And of course I give that fucking quarter of a nipple to my hero. Her smell gi is a sheet for my purposes, Her majesty the Queen about that gives
smile from a different franchise of one nipple. One last thing I do want to say is that she Lob is a spider. Spiders have eight legs. This is Spider Facts with Caitlin. I'm glad Alfred Billina was not in these movies. I think he very easily could have been, But I think he was busy, and I think what he was busy with with was Spider Man taking bad news. He was too brown to be in this movie. He was literally and and he's white. It's a high bar. Good Jesus that that may be true. Well, Anna, thank
you so much for being hearing you too. This was delightful. It is truly an epic, an episode about as long as the movie franchise itself. So you're welcome everybody where. Can we find you on the web. You can find me at Bad Comics with an X by Anna with two ends on to Graham, I make a web comic about anxiety and depression. And also thank you my lactose intolerance. I'm very allergic to cheese, but I'm in love. I
eat it every day. It's my struggle. Um. And you can also find me on Twitter same handle and uh performer used to be my show, The Pickle Hour. Jamie is a many time returning guests and Caitlin, we gotta have you want. I'd love to do it anytime. That will set it up, so we have to do it right now. Um. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks for Jamie. I know that you were reluctant to, you know, talk about an eighteen thousand hour movie. I'm such a bit and still I still enjoy this trilogy.
It is very bad at women, but I will watch it periodically for the rest of my life. Probably at least we have smog. We have. You can find us online Twitter at back Teldcast. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on Facebook. It can contribute to our Matreon five dollars a month is two extra episodes of listener requests only except for when it's our birthdays and then we picked uh so so join up. It's super fun and and a fun way to participate in
the community as well. We love you, You're great. Thanks for listening and our sine