The Hunger Games with Kelly Nugent & Lindsay Katai

dollars doing this. There's some I play. Sometimes people get the wrong idea of how much podcasters make, which is zero dollars. It's wild Anyways, those our show at the role of the portrayal of women in movies. We use

the Bechdel test as a starting off point. Becktel test being a media metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test UH that requires that a scene in a piece of media have two meal identifying characters with names that talk to each other about something other than man. Sounds simple enough, but most things don't pass.

It sees Daisy Let's demo it shall we Hey, Jamie, what kitle do you you feel that the odds may ever be in your favorite Um, you should have would say no, I feel like I would have. I mean, I know this is true of all survivalist movies. Wh I'm like, oh, I died forty five minutes ago. I was like, oh, there's no fucking way. But I also felt that way about uh many characters. And I won't specify the gender so it passes the test. And conclusion that passes the test, I'll how about a conversation that

won't pass the Bechdel test. I hate Josh Hotcherson's hair in this movie fair fare um mine was going to be Jamie. Did you know that the actor who plays the game anchor in Hunger Games is neither Jim Cavizel nor Milo Ventimiglia. I thought it was one or the other of them. Turns out neither. It's vent Amelia. Shit, we need to talk about men more. Uh No, we're We're super excited to talk. We're talking about the Hunger

Games today. Higher games one. So Hunger Games stands slide to our mentions asking why we didn't refer to Hunger Game. How many were movies? Were? There are nine? Too many? There don't ask us about the other three. I am not prepared to answer this questions. So we're talking about the first movie that came out in two thousand twelve today. Yes, and here's to join us in our discussion. We've got the hosts of teen Creeps podcasts. It's Kelly Nugent and

Lindsay Katie Hi. Hi here, sound of a cannon there or hopefully not. I'm gonna kill all of you over. Oh yeah, what if by the end of this there can be only one Victor left? I wish I had known that ahead of time. I don't think I would have agreed to do the show. I volunteers tribute to be killed first. They're like, that's not what you're like. I wanted to make it happen. Yeah, I want to be the girl in the crowd that raises her hand is like, please kill me. I'm ready to die. That's

a fun fan fick version. And then that's like galaxy brain because if you're like Elizabeth Banks, step on my neck and kill me and then she's like no, you're gonna live, and you're like, oh no, and then you live forever. Dystopian people are so easily confused, So for the two of you. What is your history relationship with this movie the franchise? Have you read the books? All that kind of good stuff. So I did not read the books or the movie or read the movie to

be and I did watch the book. I put it on a chair and stared at it for hours. I wasn't great. Um. I didn't do the movies or books until like later, after they had been out for a while, because I was very like and tie at the time. I think I was just like, I only like adult fiction. This was obviously before Lindsay and I started our podcast, because all you guys read stuff for y audience. But then I finally gave in and I like watched the first movie and I was like, oh dang, I like this.

And then I went and found the books and read the books. But I don't really remember the books. So that's kind of where I'm read the books. First. They were recommended to me by a friend who thought that I would like them, and I did like them. I liked them fine, and then I liked them fine, very diplomatic. I truly don't have a terribly negative opinion about them or like, I'm not super ampt about them either. You know solid, I feel like that's a common room towards

this franchise. Respectable, Yes, Jamie, how about you? This is one of the many franchises that I just completely slept on. I don't know what I was doing when these books were coming out. I don't know. I mean maybe I was taking yet another foray into being a guy's gal

and just missed the entire thing. I just started seeing movie three years ago when we started this podcast, so I remember the books were popular, and I also felt like, I'm like, oh, I'm too old for this, because I feel like I was just like a teen and wanted to be too old for something. Did you think that they were similar to like Twilight? Kind of No, but

they can't. They were like the same era of right, Like I think that Twilight might have been the last y A fiction I read before I decided, like arbitrarily, that I had aged out of it. But I don't know. I think that maybe if I were a few years younger, I would have read these books, but I didn't, and

then I don't. I just like had really no desire to see the movie, even though I had a very weird formative crush on Josh Hutcherson that I I no longer stand by interesting, but he was in this movie called Firehouse Dog, and I was there for Firehouse Dog for some reason that's familiar, but I can't think what it is. I couldn't tell you one thing that happens in the movie Firehouse Dog. I was really there for Josh Hutcherson and the rest of the people there were

like nine. Um, yeah, I have no history with this franchise, is what I'm saying. What about you, cait I read the books, I want to say, must have been like twenty or maybe a little bit late. I think I read them in preparation for the first movie coming out, so that would have been probably a little bit sometime in like twelve, I guess, I don't know in that frame of time. And then I since then have seen

each of the movies in theaters. And that makes me sound like I'm a big fan of this franchise, which I again would not call myself. I just I just tend to see most movies, especially ones that are big and that you know people are going to talk about, because you know, I like to be a part of

the conversation. Caitlin's addicted to the discourse. I sure am so I love a cultural moment, but I think I've only seen each movie once aside from the first one to prep for the episode, And I remember thinking the movies are better than the books in a rare case of me thinking that because I feel like the movies are just more streamlined story wise, especially the third one gets really sloppy in the book, and I'm just like,

what is even happening? I heard that. I don't think I actually read the third one, but I did hear it. It It was very oppy, and the movie was better. Yes, wait what happens? Well, yeah, she becomes like Catness becomes a symbol for like the revolution of like them trying to overthrow this totalitarian government. And then but like she's very moody for a lot of the time and doesn't really do much. You know what? This is a classic

Harry Potter book. What is it for? Five? Is it the one where he gets really moody and like temper in a teacake shop or something where I was I remember getting to that part and being like, I don't need any part of this, but I I don't think I could be there for Katness being that moody. Yeah, she is always that moody. She's a pretty moody She's like mood zero percent personality. Interesting. She I do agree that she does not have much of a personality, which

I don't like. I mean, and again, I haven't read the books, and so I'm like, I don't know how much of this is just Jennifer Lawrence. May I mean, it's Jennifer Lawrence is weird. I feel like she's a polarizing actor for many I always kind of like get leary around conversations like that because I'm always because you know, people are more critical of actresses one of actors, mediocre actors flourish all the time. I don't love her performance

in this movie. I feel like she I don't know if the character is written to be kind of like boring, but I found Wortten to be boring. Unfortunately. Well, I don't think she did a great job. I don't think what's her face sat down and went, I'm going to write a really boring character. Yeah, but that is what ended up being on the page. Um. Yeah, her personality is I'm hungry, Yeah, I'm scared. Oh no, what if

I gotten myself into this time? Like the part. I definitely felt that feeling a lot, like right when Lenny Kravitz is like thirty seconds and she's like, oh no, right, I think this is this is high visibility for strong female protagonists that are also boring as fuck. I will say she's a little less boring than like the most boring female protagonist, which is Bella Swan for sure, because she at least like has opinions, which is like I

don't like that, and a skill like she has. She's good at hunting and tracking, and she doesn't trip nearly as much Swan. Yeah, yeah, she's not as clumsy, but when she does trip, the stakes are high, that's true. She falls down a freaking giant hill. Yeah, I was like very high chat, but it's like right at the beginning, so she falls for so long it felt like, what is that movie that's supposed to be parodying uh Kung Pal?

Is that that like karate parody movie where there's like there's a scene in that movie where a baby falls down the same hill and it's clearly a puppet and it falls for like five seconds and it's really funny, or it's like Princess Briane, so Catness is just like, oh yeah, it's with yeah, a strong character that I was not emotionally compelled by even for a moment, except for the stuff with your sister. But we'll get to that. Sure, I'll do the recap and then we'll dive into the

discuss and everyone feel free to talk over her. So she gets stuffing out. Yeah, I'll just talk about my day, okay. So we open with some like text information about the Hunger Games, which Jamie, as you pointed out, is in Helvetica font. Oh my gosh, okay, wait at least just not Papyrus it miss Well. I was so shocked. I was telling Caitlin and Aristotle upstairs and Sophie as well that I made I had to stop and make sure

I was watching the right movie. I'm like, oh, maybe this is like some weird, like off brand version of The Hunger Games, but like they had a seventy eight million dollar budget, and the movie opens with six sides of Helvetica literally the same font. I was, let's not worry about why. But I was looking for a video of someone playing through the fire and flames on expert mode on Story and I clicked on it and it was like I think I got ric rolled because then it was like a picture of a cat and then

like font over. I was like, thank you for coming to my channel. But it was that fun, like that is what's happening on Hunger Games. It's a thirteen year

old please like and subscribe slide. At the beginning, I was shaken to my I feel like that is the most emotion I felt in the entire movie was how viscerally I responded to the hell vtic upon at the beginning and the end, because the movie ends on it and it fades out and says like directed by Gary Rouse, and you're like the heal veticas bat Like it's so jarring, true dystopia. Yeah, like this is not making commentary, like

how Vetical will sort of outlive us all. The last I'll say about the font is like, if you've got seventy eight million dollars, at least use a seraph like ridiculous,

kind of fair, unreal anyways, so I hear you. So the content of the we learned that there are twelve districts of pan Am, which sounds like an airline and but it's it's it's the country that used to be the United States of America, and each district will offer up a male and female between the ages of eighteen, twelve and eighteen at a lottery selection ceremony type thing called the Reaping, and the children who are selected, also called the Tributes, are sent to the capital and then

transferred to an arena where they will fight to the death in what it's called the Hunger Game. And they're like, what if The Bachelor plus Survivor plus Apocalypse plus A is so so Elizabeth Banks performance This franchise answers that because the Hunger Games are televised as a like reality TV show for everyone to see, and everyone fights to

the death until a single victor remains. And I don't mean a person named victor, of course, because that would not pass the higher games, but will he be the victor? That'd be a great Like I kept trying to I just got into the Bachelorette, which is my shame, but I keep trying to. I kept trying to, like picture the contestants doing like talking heads, because that's the only

element of reality TV they shared for this. It would be so fun if Josh Hudgerson were like, yeah, I'm kind of starting to catch fields for or if he's like if he's like um, like, so we see him, you know he's decided with the bad guys and he's like, so I might have been on the wrong side of history. Okay, So we meet Catness Eberdeen. That's Jennifer Lawrence's character. She is from District twelve, which is like a poor coal miner part of the of pan Am, and Catiness is

a skilled archer. She hunts for food for her and her family, which is her mother and sister Prim, who she loves dearly and who is stressed out about this upcoming reaping. Can I can I just say Prim is fine, but like, I just don't see Like from what I saw Prim, I would not have volunteered distribute for her. I would just let her. But I think you need to keep in mind that the person who was like I couldn't possibly let her go with Catiness, who's possibly

even more of a vacuum of personality. True, like Prim showed emotion, so she had that going for her, but that little I thought that the actress who played Prim did a great job with being given nut too much. Also the name, I'm wondering, like if Suzanne Collins had like, if she's released any like insight into her naming conventions, because naming a little girl prim seems weirdly pointed and prim Rose it's a shortcut to get to Prim though for sure. Yea. Anyways, so her best friend is Gail.

That's Liam Hemsworth's characters. Fleming's kidding, I get it, um and the two of them talked about how fucked up the Hunger Games are and how they should just leave, and then Catness and Prim go to the reaping and Effie Trinkett is there. That's Elizabeth Banks character. Oh okay, really quick, what Elizabeth? I possibly? I like Elizabeth Bank. I do not like her in this part at all. I think she's doing a terrible Helen A. Bottom Carter impression.

How many times did Helen and bottom Carter turn this part down? And then how many times did Parker Posey turn it down after before they arrived at letting Elsa Banks do a terrible impression of both of them. It bothers me. I So I was I was fine on her performance. I thought she was like a seven out of ten performance wise. Really you mentioned Helena bottom Carter and I was like, oh, that's what it is. She simply wasn't available because Helena would have killed it. That's

like a role she's born to play. Yeah, that's her in her film career. Yes, I needed somebody who can actually play like out of it. Yeah, because her character is not that forever Elsa thanks isn't isn't really a character actor in that way, she was trying something. I appreciated the f Ultimately, it did make me just wonder what if Parker Posey had gotten she seems to be available. She was doing Parker Posey's character from Josie and the Post. That is exactly what she was doing. Those are the

things we see girls. Oh god, great movie anyway. Anyways, So Effie Trinkett is from the Capital. She represents the Hunger Games essentially, or like she represents District twelve, for she is the District twelve Hunger Games like read being like representative. She's by far the most dystopian looking of everyone besides Stanley Tucci and Stanley Tucci are the only ones delivering looks quite that dystopian. And then you've got Guy Fieri beard, and then everyone else kind of looks normal.

Oh yeah, but except for like the non speaking extras that will like occasionally everyone in the capital, but people who is yeah speaking right anyway? Sky. So for we're at the reaping for the girls, prim gets selected to participate in the games, but Ketness can't bear to see her little sister compete, so she volunteers as tribute and an iconic scene and then it goes like this, I vad I volatiers tribute and then like lots of shaky camera which urgently scary. I actually I liked this part.

I thought that I was a little bit moved by it. Sure, I like the parts with her and her family. I wish there was more of that. And Peter Peter, speaking of Peter gets selected for the boys, and that's Josh Hutcherson's character. So Catness and Peter Hutcherson. I thought I would have be ten Hutchinson. Did I say it? I might have said, didn't know. I think you're right. I think it is Hutcherson. I feel like Jamie would definitely know actually had a sexual awakening as a former stand

it is Josh Hutcherson. And that is hound spelled in firehouse dog. Okay, okay. So they go and meet their mentor hay Mitch, which is Woody Harrelson and and his four dollar wig feminist icono middle part most and least. Yeah, I liked Woody Harrelson in this movie. The wig was wild. I didn't see there's a lot of wigs in this movie and this is it was like an anime causeplay wig. I don't know what was happening, but it was very bad. It was like PC could not keep drycause it was why, like,

just blow some wind on him. I don't understand why it was constantly wet and PC it was so bad. I like that They're like, he's an alcoholic, therefore he has a dirty wig on all the time. This leap of logic doesn't quite make sense, but sure a visual language. Well, the costume designer is like, look, I know it's kind of cliche, but I'm just going to go with a cheap wig because he's an alcoholic. It's just like a short cut of storytelling, like you know, like that the

caller is undone and the wigs wet. Every alcoholic I've ever known has a soaking wet wig, and that's a dead it's a dead giveaway that you need help. So he's a previous like victor of the games, which is why he's helping them, but he doesn't really have much

interest in helping him. The main thing that he tells Catans is that she needs to be more likable so that she'll get sponsors who will send her stuff during the games survive, which at least is framed as a bad thing because you don't want to hear that from someone wearing a soaking wet wig like likable really, right? I appreciate I appreciate that the movie went out of its way to frame this is like, this is not the right thing to be saying to this character. That's important.

So then they get to the Capitol and Catnist meets Sinna. That's Lenny Kravitz hot, what a what an I didn't I didn't know the cast of this movie outside of Jennifer Lawrence and and the Hudge. I know that my like, my best friend from high school, Lois listens to the show and she went to Firehouse Dog with me and she is losing her minder. I keep thinking it's like

fire House Dog. That's what I keep thinking too, because of the emphasis of how you're saying, my fuse sorry, I've been saying it for thirteen years since it was released. I just can't step. I have it on DVD, the only DVD I own anyway. I watched it every day. I love it. I don't have a DVD player, but if I ever get when I'm ready, Um there, what were we even talking? Oh? I just had no idea Lenny Kravitz was in this movie. And what a pleasant

surprise I know. Yeah. Something my boyfriend said was how many steps did it take in the process to get to casting Lenny Kravitz's first choice? No idea, but I think he adds in this movie. I think casting Lenny Kravitz a style icon as a dystopian stylist rules, and that was real fun. Yeah. I like that too, and I liked his relationship with Katness the same. He's one of my favorite characters. Him and the Tooch and everyone else touch don't really care anyways, A can and then

it's like whatever the rest of the baby. Um, so he's her silas there's a tribute parade that he makes her all fancy, and I mean, speaking of Firehouse Dog, it's more like Firehouse were you freaking girl? When with her fire? Yeah? I mean, I was like, this is Josh the boy on Fire. You start calling her that weird? So the girl Girl on Fire was that that that has that had to have come out after this movie came out, right, otherwise you're like a weird reference that

would have been really into. Josh Patterson isn't even on the poster for a house dog. It's just a dog. That's so it's really so embarrassing. He's the star of the movie and he's not on the poster. That's funny. It's just a dog in sunglasses. So there's the parade. Stanley Tucci is Caesar Flickerman, but he's Stanley Tucci and he's the commentator of all things Hunger Games. Um, we meet the GameMaker, there's President's no, who's Donald's Sutherland? And

who expected you to say Stoke? Oh because because of Star Wars. Um, So they're all there. And then the tributes they train a little bit. The tributes from District one and two were always like really really good because they like go to like training camp and there it's a whole thing. There's like a whole class discussion we can have there. Um, and Peter is worried that he's going to died because he sucks it everything except that he's strong and he can throw heavy objects like John

Hafferson is not strong. How this movie are you trying? He looks crazy. It is so weird that they're like he's so strong. I'm like, stop gaslighting me. I'm looking at And when she's like you should throw that big ball, he like walks over to it. I was like, he You're like his arm is going to fall up. He don't show him throwing it, but like seen or Peter tells his story about how like he's like, no, like even my own mother knows that, like you're gonna win Catus.

And she goes, well, you're like really good at throwing flour. She's like, I've seen you do it many times. It's like a Baker's son superpower that he has. It's it's two superpowers, both baking related. Yes, they're take decorating. And does Susanne Collins understand bakeries? Has she ever met a poor person? I have a lot of questions based on her portrayal. And I love, I mean, I love short men, and I love when short men are cast in leading roles. End and it's like or shorter. I don't know his

exact hide. I think it's a round five seven if I remember correctly from my Firehouse Dog days. Oh boy short a k a girl tall, right, yes, And but I like when when they don't Tom cruise it and the movie is like, no, he's shorter than her and we're not going to call attention to it. That said, he visibly could not be that strong. I mean, he has some arms, arms, muscle, but his little T shirt was No. I wasn't going to support I was very

worried about the about the ball throwing. And you do notice too that they never they show a lot of cut twos, the like flashbacks of like him throwing a piece of bread air. Honestly, I believe that Josh Hudgerson would have gotten two into cross fit to get ready for this movie. He kind of has the resting face of someone who is two into cross He does and CrossFit resting, but they never show him throwing those hundred pound bags of flower around. Jen's shooting the arrows, what

throw the iron ball? So like at this we are maybe to believe that at the same time Catness is hunting that deer that Gail totally sucks up. He is somewhere just like lifting backs, like in his version of the movie. That's what's taking place a lot of theorious at Alright, we meet Rue. She is a younger kid from District eleven. I think Catness. She's impressing the judges

with how good she is with the bone arrow. She gets a score of eleven because they're like rating all the tributes, and she gets the highest score because she throws an arrow at them. And every time cat Is gets a great score, Peter is extremely emasculated and retally. It's and that's why he's the romantic lead of the movie. So it's the night before the Hunger Games and all the tributes to a TV interview, and Peter during his interview says that he is in love with someone who

came to the Games with him. I hate this, yes, so much. We'll talk all about this. It's like when the people on the Bachelorette say they're in love with her in the first episode. I like, you just want attention. I'm like, you're not falling stop or a few arts because they've given you too much layer and not enough food. Yeah, the Hunger Games of its own time, I mean we know there was booze because Hayman is drinking a lot of it, very demonst I mean, there's enough to dip

his wig in it. That's why. That's that's why from always like liquor sweats, Yes, constants. You know, now it's toime for the games. Let the game speak in both of you. And right away, like half of the tributes are killed. This is the part of the convenience where everyone would have died. I was like I would as they were standing around, I was like trying to put myself in the position. I'm like, no, I think at this point I would have been like, well, I had

a good run. It's always nice. Set like this will be on my IMDb page and it might kind of be like the crow and I had. Yeah. So Catne survives and runs into the woods, and then she learns that Peter is alive too and pretending to be an ally to the District one and two people, and they are using him to try to find Catanus because they want to kill her. She continues to survive. She escapes a fire. The bad guys find her, They chase her up a tree, and then she drops a wasps nest

on them. Um, which her and her friend Ru had been the one to like alert her to the presence of the nest, so Ru is her her. Ally, they're also LSD wasps Yes, which which like Stanley Tucci kind of pops in sometimes like over the loud speaker like a vice principal and just like gives you exposition. You like, by the way, there's LSD in the wasp. But you're like right, because he's the host of the reality show that everyone's watches, like Home. He's Jeff Crisp sting it.

He's like live narrating what is happening during the challenge. It's also kind of like he's doing the post show talk show while it is still happenings like the Talking Days Talking that's where that show got into name yeah, talking about who died so horrible. Also, Toby Jones is there with him, very like how do you underutilize Toby Jones. He's like he doesn't speak, like he responds like two sentences. Maybe he's like blah blah blah. Tracker Jackers or whatever

they're called. Toby Jones is on the left, looking like a weird Mozart and he's like yeah, he literally is just like you got that right. That's it sounds like a good part. I would ship out of that part like he got that right. I would be like moving a lot, got your online. I would be really just like I got like two seconds on camera. I'm gonna make it work and I'm getting my SAG card for this.

You're gonna see it. Yeah, okay. So then kas finally gets her hands on a bone arrow and she and Ru have like formed this alliance and they destroy the supplies that like all the bad guys from District one and two are hoarding. But then Ru gets killed prize. Then there this incites some riots in District twelve or sorry, District eleven, and an announcement is then made that they will crown two victors in the Hunger Games if they originate from the same district. So then Catanis goes and

finds Peter, who has disguised himself as a rock. It was so weird. What where did he get that stuff? I don't know. It happened to be in his pack. He had a cake decorating kit. That was the moment that shook me, like the second most after Helvetica. Front was like she found him disguised as a rock, and she's like, you know what, I think I am in love with him. You're like in the next scene she kisses him. I was like, what this is? What? That

was part of the act. He wandered onto set of nailed it and was just like, I've got all the stuff I'm gonna paint my face and they were like, actually, you did you look like? He didn't really look like Tenda ten rock painting looks like they're their mirrors, and it's like, how didn't you know if? Also he has like an infectious cut on it. Also, I laughed out loud when he's like, hello, you know your man's is disguised as a rock and has a critical wound. He's unwell.

He's like, am I winning? He at that point like he should have he should be dead, he should not feel he's close. But she gets him to safety and then they kiss. We'll talk all about this, uh, and then everyone's rooting for them to make it so, and then they're like, okay, we're the only team left with just the two of us still alive from the same district. We can win this together. And then at this point there's only one other tribute left, which is kato colored hair. Yes,

oh yeah, he looks like a thumb guest. They fight him, they kill him, and then just then there's another announcement that says, just kidding, there can be only one winner. So Peter is like, catn this killing me and she's like no, let's both die. So they're about to eat these poison berries and then the announcer comes back and it's like, wait, wait, wait, just to stop, don't do that. You both win. So they're announced to be the victors of the Hungry Games. And then they go back to

the Capitol. They have like post show interviews and they have to make her dress belly interesting and just like you piss them off by like doing this whole double victory thing. So now you have to pretend like you're really in love with Peter because everyone's just gonna gobble that up. They do that, and then that's the end of the movie. We'll take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and we're bad gods. All right, Well we're a start. There's so much to to talk

about this. I feel like, okay, So this movie is like often cited when people are talking about movies with strong female protagonists because you do get to see, you know, a young woman who has a lot of agency, she has skills, the stakes are high. The series becomes about her being like a symbol for the revolution. Like it's a whole and it's a female lead action franchise, which is cool indeed, But there are some things that I wish wouldn't have happened. The romantic subplot and its entirety

by any chance, Yes, that's the big thing. Hey. For me, I was like, and I wonder how much of this was supposed to inspire or like dread because for me, I was like, oh no, she's like being told that she has to fake this relationship with this guy. I don't like that. She kind of seemed to like him back, Yeah, because what I would have liked was for her to like not really know how much of it he's faking, because he is more duplicitous than she thinks like he is.

She has seen that he knows how to play the game, so I disagree. I don't think he is at all duplicitous. I think he really going to the other side purely to save her. No, not for that, I mean like he knows how to play this game, so he is faking being in love with her. I mean, maybe he likes her, but I think because we see from the next movies that he he like fully is in love with her. I think it's a little bit of both. I think it's so I don't know, yeah, but he's

like fully in love with her. But also I mean I think you're right too, and that like you see in that moment in the parade when they're on the chariot, like he goes to surprise, not kiss, but grab her hand and she pulls away and he's like, no, come on,

they'll love it. And then so she's like okay, but then they hold hands and then people are like I was a little confused about like the same debate of like, because at first it does seem like I was assuming that he was very calculated in the ways, especially because of the whole like it felt like the first episode of The Bachelor, where he goes on he doesn't tell her that he likes her, he tells the entire world in this very performative way, and I was like, that

seems calculated, Like that seems like some you know, something that just to gain attention and good will, but then they sort of try to spin it later as if it were actually totally sincere and not calculated at all, And I just I don't know, like I don't hate that the TV show tries to push them together because I feel like there's some commentary there of like the

way that's really like realistic. Yeah, like the way the TV show treats Cat and is I think is meant to be like commentary of like when she goes up for her first interview, like Stanley Tucci make sure she has to show off her outfit and like she has to and when what he Harrelson advises her and what

to do, it's very like reality TV calculated. I'm like, Okay, I'd like that works for me because there's commentary being made and we believe at the time that she doesn't care for this guy at all, so there's like some interesting tension. But then I feel like they kind of throw it away by it being like, no, they actually do like each other, so because she initiates the kiss when they're in the cave, right, so, but then even then I was just like, is she doing this because

she knows there being on camera? I don't know which would be smart. That would be interesting to my interpretation based on the book and the movie together, because I think what it comes down to is it not working in the movie is casting. They have no chemistry, They not in chemistry whatsoever, and neither of them have very

many shades to their performance either. So when he is playing Sincere in love with Catanus, it reads exactly the same as when you are supposed to kind of wonder what his motives are because you were supposed to wonder because she is wondering. But then as the book goes on, it's like, no, he was a hundred percent since here. It is shitty how he announces it, which is not

something I even thought about. Watching the movie last night, I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, like and also I think I think, deep down maybe he does love her, but he might be like one of those guys that's like doesn't understand to love someone truly is to love them how they want to be loved, and rather he's just like, this is how we express it, and like that's why he announced it, because I think partially he's doing it because he's like, oh, I feel love her, I should

just say it. And then like partially he's he knows the only thing he's got is knowing how to play the game, because he from the beginning they get in there, she's like sulking, and he's like we should wave at them, because like you've got to get people to like you. That was like an interesting moment for me at least, because you're just like, Okay, this is like h Like I almost like I wish that they if if the tension were constantly from like them doubting, like oh is

this not how do I actually feel about it? But it's like I don't know yet it is partially a performance thing. And then setting aside there like lack of chemistry.

If we just take it like the events of the story at face value, what happens is that the more the movie progresses, the more this romantic storyline gets entangled into the main story, which is their survival, which I feel is really unnecessary, Like they made a conscious choice because there's like, all right, this is a y a book, this is you know, a movie franchise for largely like teen young adult audiences, So we've got a wedge this not only a romantic storyline into here, but it's a

love triangle story because gayl otherwise care because in this first movie, and I wonder if the book makes this more clear or not. I can't totally remember, but Gail and Catness are framed as being best friends, and there's no reason to assume that they have anything besides a platonic friendship apart from being very attractive, apart from both

being near each other and both hot time. But but then when you when Gail is watching the Hunger Games from his TV or wherever, at the projected at the Hunger Um, he's seeing Catness and Peter Kiss on TV

and he's like visibly upset. So we're supposed to understand, like, oh no, he's also in love with Catness because in a Why novel and movie, sure a woman gets to be the main character sometimes, but if she is, she's got to have not one but two boys who love her, which is like both adds nothing to well, I mean, it's I feel like it's supposed to add stuff to the story. But there's just multiple elements of this movie, and I think this is like the most sinister one.

Also introducing Daddy issues ninety minutes into the movie. I also found to be very unnecessary. I forgot that that was part of her She's like hallucinating after getting bit stuff with the mom and the dad being dead and stuff. Right, I feel like it's like there's too many crutches involving male characters when it's like this movie does not want

for steaks. The steaks are high enough the whole movie, and like adding in this like love story that doesn't work really and then throwing in some daddy issues on top of it, it's like we are like catness is already in trouble and the daddy stuff doesn't really pay off at all except in like a passing comment to her mom. And I don't know, like there was just most of the like adding a problem on top of a problem that was already life or death. It's like

it's just like it's just not necessary. Also, it's also interesting and how they show like they introduced these like daddy issues is because what it actually comes down to is it becomes an issue she has with her mom. She doesn't think about her dad that much. What happened is her dad died and the mom shut down emotionally and she had to take care of herself and she had to take care of prim so it's actually a mommy issue, but it doesn't really present that way. It's weird.

I mean, I feel like it kind of glory like the way mothers are presented in this movie are is. I mean, it's very limited, but I feel like it is telling where it seems like we're supposed to assume because Peter has a bad, possibly abusive relationship with his mom, that that's why he treats Cat and is like shit at first, which is kind of like a one to one and I was like that it should If you're going to do that, then you have to explore it. You can't just be like, that's why you shifty two

women so you can like him. I thought he was like shitty to her because he was embarrassed about being like bonked on the head with a rolling pin. I'm not sure what happened, but he got bonked or whatever, and I think he just was just in a shitty place and like, I didn't I don't want to keep being the in the book person. But again, this is

another weakness of the movie. So it's like, on the one hand, it seems like a really good adaptation, and on the other hand, it totally doesn't convey at all what the book version of this was, which is that he was like, really, you putting himself on the line by throwing her that. But you're not supposed to give food to other people in the Hunger games, right in

those worlds, I mean, everyone's hungry. It was like he was, everyone's so hungry, and so it's hard us to You're so you're allowed to bread at pigs, but not at people. It was like that bread was to feed their pigs that they need to survive, I think. And then so he's like really risking a beating by even throwing her some bread, and she remembers this so when he steps up on stage, at least in the book, she's like, it's kind of the sense maybe I'm remembering this wrong.

That would be amazing if I'm remembering this wrong. But but when he steps up on stage, she's like, oh, no, the only other person who's been nice to meet my whole life, Like, I don't want it to be him. He like, was he like gave me bread once? Oh I read it as she was like, you threw bread at me. She's like, you sad that it's Peter. Ah,

I did not see that in the movie. The movie, it seemed like she was like you threw bread at me, you think you're better than me, and like you saw me at my worst when I was like hungry and leaning on a tree in the rain. So she does not seem bad off. It seems like she was like, yeah, I was just like having a nice day on the rain. Those flashbacks are badly done. It's like none of us. I feel like we all had different takeaways from them.

I just I'm so disinterested in their romantic connection that I like, honestly wasn't even so is Catnets like she interested in him. She's not fish to fry, like not dying, she's too hungry to be in love. Also, this is what I think about a lot in these types of love triangles stories where it's like, Okay, you've got her best friend Gayle is apparently in love with her. Um,

this guy Peter is apparently in love with her. But like, what if Kenness was a lesbian, like because she's just been like yeah, it's like she's not because of heteronormativity in media, But like, where's the story where she was like character, I would like if she was queer, But it's just like all the romantic stuff. I feel like it's just really over done and like not necessary, and I would love for the movie to have been fifteen minutes shorter. Um, So if they end so they could

just cut it out, I'll be fine with it. I agree now as an adult. But if I was reading this, then I'd like all I wanted at was for two boys to be in love with me at the same time. It would be like, oh my god, dream come true. And so if I was reading this books, I'd be like, yes, two boys are in love with her and I am her. Yeah,

maybe that's why she's still born. Because we talked about this sometimes where there will be a boring I mean, this is not this can be applied to any gender, but there will be like a boring main character, especially in like y A and teen fiction, where it allows, you know, the young person who's reading it or consuming it in whatever way to plug themselves into that character. But like, yeah, which is you know and you don't.

I guess maybe that was why I was a little thrown by, because normally they're not female protagonists that get this boring plug in treat man, because it's usually like you're getting a Harry Potter or you're getting a neo, or you're getting just like a Bland dude. But I guess, yeah, just getting this is progressive taking all that, like the pendulum has to swing. I like, I like romance both as a genre and as like a thing in other movies,

and I like a love triangle. I did not like this one because I think it was poorly done, Like there weren't any seeds that the best friend in her were like a thing. And so when he was like, oh I can't watch you in the bar, I was like what why. I was like, oh, you like her,

like okay. And then when that's another thing where it's like, oh, I guess deep down, I just like always assumed tweet end up together, which is like, yeah, like it's like what you guys don't even seem to like each other until you cosplayed as a rock and then all of a sudden she's in love seriously when he does that cosplay as a rock and she's like, oh my god, like let me drag you into this cave and like and he's like, oh I have to paint myself as

this cave. Now She's like put it down, like relax just to Pitai. I'm just can you imagine how many Instagram followers Pete would have had though? If he could have just painted himself like various surfaces like he been insanely popular, many sponsors, many parachute he would have got. Yeah, he would have been an influencer. Um, that's we've got to go to another break. But to to wrap up on the relationship, I guess it makes sense in a y A thing. I think it could have been more

thoughtfully adapted. And I think it's also like because the love triangle or just like a romantic storyline is so pervasive and why fiction, it's just like, can we have one where there's not? And I'm sure there are And you know, it's been several years over a decade since these books were published, so I'm sure I haven't read much much why A fiction since then. But it's just like, can't we just have a story about like a badass young woman like doing cool stuff. And I'm not kissing boys.

I'm mostly compelled by like Peanut and catness relationship as like them faking a relationship to please the masses and then actually either not liking each other or like working together and realizing like we have to fake this for reality TV, and then we then were full fucking burn the world down, and then it turns into the America that that's what it is like, exploring that like expectation of why a fiction and faking it and having the

reader know that, Like, I think that that much better story. And the stakes are very high because each of them could be holding that kind of as like both a carrot and stick, as like because you better do what I need you to do, because otherwise I could just tell everyone that like we don't like or if like they the powers that be find out that they're faking it, then they'll, you know, like be mad, don't we have we have punch ups, Suzanne, uh. And with that, we're

gonna go to a break. We'll be right back. So I think this might be a good transition into There's been a lot of discussion surrounding race in this movie. Um and as always, we want to open everything up to our listeners who may have info and insights that we don't. But there were two main subjects that I found in the coverage of In two thousand twelve when

this movie was coming out, there was very upsetting. Yeah, the first thing was catanis as being a whitewashed role by Jennifer Lawrence having been cast um fans of the book. I mean, it's this is a little trickier to discuss, but but it does seem like to an extent, there is something to that because in the books, Um, she's described as having all of skin and straight black hair, which leaves it to open to interpretation. But Jennifer Lawrence is not. She does not have all of skin, nor

does she have straight black hair. No, and whatever whatever raised Susanne Collins was trying to imply, it doesn't seem like was was reflected in the casting at all, which was sort of a discussion around then, but it didn't seem to for fans at this time to disqualify her. I know, it's so weird of the seven years ago and was a different time people barely so that's so

that's where that's worth discussing. And also the fact that Susan Collins didn't overrule it because she was very integral in the making of this movie and she had the power. She's one of the producers, she's one of the writers of the script. I can imagine because it's not like she was coming off of another very successful franchise. I can imagine a situation in which she fought for that and just could not was overrule, get them to budge on it. I could say, I mean, yeah, it's it's unfortunate.

And it seems like they were this was like a very hot time for Jennifer Lawrence. I think she was like coming off of Winter's Bone and so yeah, so she was coming off of like it makes sense that this would be the time to cast her in a huge franchise. But that was a subject of discussion, and it seems like, um, some fans were pretty upset that she had been cast, because that happens all the time.

And then the other main subject of discussion that I think has changed quite a bit since the movie came out is the discussion around the black characters in the movie, particularly um there was a lot of to the point where there is an in depth New Yorker essay written about it, Yes, about fan backlash when black actors were cast as these parts that it is worth saying they were written as black care Yeah, that was wild watching that happen. I wasn't I wasn't aware of you. Yeah,

I remember, just like actually like just very dumb. So you're reading this book and you're like, this character is white, right, But yeah, So basically there was a bunch of racist ship heads on mostly Twitter, I think, but kind of just ve being so upset that ru was black. I remember this, And yeah. So the article that we referenced from The New Yorker is called white until Proven Black, Imagining Race and Hunger Games by Anna Holmes. Um, at least that's the one I read it. Okay, so check

that out, um, because it provides some good insight about that. Yeah, it gives I mean it gives like the full like a scope of fans, like someone who scouted out like all the racist tweets made around it, there were, Um let me let me read one directly, just to give

you the idea of what, uh it was like. I mean, basically, it was just tweets that said, first of all, that they were surprised that they had cast a black actress to play Rue, and second that they felt less bad when a black woman was killed then if a white woman was killed. So just a lot of really hideous biases that have absolutely everything to do with the person making the comment because if they you know, and and I think it's a lot of toxic fandom stuff of like, oh,

it should have stuck to the book. But it's like Blenny didn't read the book because it was always written as a black character, and and it's nuts that it would be like you read the book and Catness is like not white question mark, and everybody's like, how dare you? And then you cast a very obviously black character to be a black actress and people were like, oh, she's

not white, and it's really the red is white. And then it's also really interesting to look at it in the lens of today, which like I had actually forgotten about that whole controversy with the casting of the character room, And when I was watching it just with the lens of twenty nineteen, I was like, man, just as a whole, it does kind of suck that like a character of color helps this white protagonist and like points out all

the things that she should do to survive. She points out the wast and she puts like medicinal leaves on her, like wasp bite. Yeah, and then dies and then the white character survives to two white characters survived, which is not by any means malicious. It's not anything like that. It just reveals an implicit bias that like people don't know they have, which is like, oh, well, what's wrong

with that? They were? It shows that the black character was smarter, and it's like, yeah, but the winner to have the only girl who's a person of color and the entire movie be killed. I mean, she's really only involved in the movie in a meaningful way for maybe twenty minutes and through the like the lens of how

does it affect our main character? Right, which I know this is not an ensemble film, and that literally everyone dies except for two people, but it's still there is still I think that kind I mean, the cast is still predominantly white when you consider Elizabeth Banks, Woody Harrelston, for sure, Stanley Tucci, like the GameMaker, the President is not like most of the people are white, with the exception of Lenny Kravitz and some extras you see who

live in District eleven, which is apparently the only place where the black people live. It's so because I mean, it's and again it seems like that is uh all, I mean, that seems like it obviously is a Hollywood problem, but from what I could find about the book series is that the books were written to be far more diverse. It's like implied that they're like most people are mixed race at this point so far in the future, which they would be. Yes, it makes sense, but it's still

casts as like an extremely white cast. And if they hadn't done that, Ru's death would not have been so rubbed us the wrong way exactly. But also we can all agree that the relationship between ruined Catness is very compelling. It's whereas she has like no chemistry with anyone else my favoritely her sister, the actress who plays Rue a man less Stenberg. I think I'm saying that right. I'm not totally sure. I have I have some cool quotes

from her reflecting on this role. But um, my favorite example of like how that is the most compelling relationship in the movie is that a man Lestenberg and Jennifer Lawrence won the Teen Choice Award for Best Chemistry that year, just like fu J Hutcherson, Like apparently all of the teams felt that way. Yeah, so just a few words from a man Listenberg, who, um, if you're if you I wasn't following her social media or her like activism very closely before I stumbled across this, but she um,

and she's also a non binary. She goes by she her and they them, but predominantly she her came out in like she's just she's a really really cool She's really cool. And so she did this interview last year when she was promoting uh movie that I don't think it was super well received, but it was called The Darkest Minds and it was a sci fi movie that

she was the lead of. So she was reflecting on the Hunger Games and some of her thoughts quote, it does feel really special to have begun my career with The Hunger Games and to be in a place now where I can be cast in the lead of this sort of thing. I don't know that that would have

been possible. At the same time, in the same way, she continued, noting that it's only recently that Hollywood and audiences alike have begun to see the effects of big pushes for on screen diversity, and then she comments on how she viewed the racist backlash against her character because she's only like twelve or thirteen to have to deal

with that. Yeah, Um, She reflects on it now and says, quote there was resistance to having black girls in films and that black women are dehumanized and their lives are seen as less valuable than white lives. Uh. She This is from a BuzzFeed interview. By the way, she she remembers that one of the main complaints was that Rue's death became less sad to some viewers when they saw her as a black girl. Quote. While it was hurt

full when I was twelve, it wasn't shocking. The irony of the whole situation was that Rue was one of the only characters I could find in the content I loved that was literally written as black. So that is that her thoughts. She's really cool. She is like also a major She speaks out about colorism in Hollywood a lot. She turned down a role in Black Panther because she felt that the should have gone to a darker skinned actor. She's just she's really cool, so check her out and

support all of her stuff. Amazing. Also, speaking of non binary, it made me wonders because, like they say, like a girl and a boy is selected from each district, and it's like, okay, does that mean like non binary gender queer and like intersect, people are off the hook, like

maybe this could be spun as good. Absolutely mad, but yeah, just to to wrap up on the conversation about race, like there's black people in District eleven, there's some black people in the capital, but like in PanAm, there are no Asian people. There are no like Latin X people.

I think there might be one, maybe two Asian tributes, but the movie could not care less about those characters, Like they die immediately, Like it's just such a weirdly predominantly white cast or a movie that takes place in a world where people would be much browner. I was going to say, um, perhaps I can provide some perspective having been alive in like what the world was like then. It's like we just didn't know, Like we were raised a certain way with certain ideas about race and gender.

So like you guys might not understand. But in just six it was still six years old. Yeah, I don't know, so just keep that in mind. It was a very long time. That's what this this director. I mean, I don't know how involved Gary Ross was in the creative writing decisions of this movie, but um, you know he doesn't have a great track record on race. He's also

directed Pleasant Pills. So yeah, um much diversity and black and White was black and white, I take it back, and then it had a lot of color at the end. One of our most beloved episodes anyways. So, um, there was like a scene where Catanets is trying to impress

the judges. It's at the end of the day. It's like mostly older white men who are like observing and like no one's paying attention to her at this point, so she like has to do this like drastic thing where she fires the arrow like right near them, and it just reminded me of an all too familiar situation where women are not taken as seriously as other people, namely straight white men, and she has to like work much harder to like garner the same respect that someone

like the Cato character just like comes with that privilege of like being respected immediately. I feel like that at least is one of the things that was effectively commented on in the movie. At least, Yeah, I think. So there's a couple of the things that I um enjoyed too about the movie where this is a rare occurrence, but you get to see a woman using real weapons

when the situation warrants it. Because we talk all the time about how in movies, if a woman has to fight, she's given a frying pan to bank on a guy's head. Just lady things, the kitchen appliances and you know, stuff like that. This is a pervasive trope. Um. So the fact that she we see, I mean we see lots of weapons, lots of weapons in this yes, and she makes them herself. She makes them herself. She's got a knife,

she's got a bone arrow. We get to see a woman do things that we rarely get to see a woman doing movies, which is stuff like hunt, use tools, climb tree wrap, wrap a little rope around your legs so you can sleep on a tree, be better than her male counterpart at all of the except for decorates. He's given a traditionally what I would say is a feminine skill, which is like a decorating and really yeah, like cooking and really elaborate makeup and being weaker, yeah,

and being shrill. Honestly, I find Peter to be shrill. He was shrill. I just wish he would calm down. He's hysterical because I didn't mention his hair at the top of the show. He also suffers from a wet hair issue. Yes, very bad hair. Bad hair. Sometimes sometimes I wonder. I'm just like, maybe it's just that Jennifer Lawrence has perfect hair, because that's how that's where all the hair budget, right. Yeah. Yeah, her wigs were too good and then everyone else's suffer. I mean, but like

female protagonists need to look clean, she barely looks. I mean there is a makeovers too cute in District twelve. I was I would like blue bad dress. Yeah, her kicky boots, leather jacket, her leather jacket that she got from H and M. What was that? It was very I liked the jacket to cute. I have almost all of those articles of clothing I considered like showing up and caused playing as you do have that. I've seen that jab, I've got jets that are similar. I've got

the jeans. I don't know, but anyways, I say I didn't buy that. They were poor. Her clothes were like I do not feel sorry for her. Where is she shopping you? You just mentioned the makeover. That was one of the things I actually did like because I feel like, again the movie frames the makeover as unnecessary and wrong.

I feel like there was commentary there, right because again, there's like this whole ongoing theme throughout the movie where everyone's telling her catness, you need to be more likable. Oh by Peter saying that he has a crush on you, that makes you seem desirable, which is good. I feel like the movie maybe could have done a little bit more to suggest that that was a bad stance to take,

But I think I would say it does enough. But I think that maybe for like younger viewers, it was perhaps too subtle for like pre teens, but it could all have been the author's intent maybe to comment on like, she is great at what she does, she isn't like likable, but she can win these games on her own. But the only way she's going to get outside help is if she seems like softened by somebody being in love

with her. Right, Like, I think that that, like that was parts of the movie that I totally agree now that you mentioned it that it was if I was like thirteen seeing this movie, would I have picked up on that? Yeah? I don't think I wouldn't I fairly picked up on it yesterday. Well, and you guys have provided a lot of insights, like at the end to what I really liked at the end, at least for me as an adult woman, was how scary the end was, because like it was very like girl, what you get

yourself into? Trap? And when he grabs her hand and pulls it out like that, and like the weird fakey like interview part where she's like, I just you know, I couldn't imagine that, like I think. Me now, I'm like, dang, okay, that's like I get it also commentary, But as a thirteen year old I would have been like, uh huh, yeah, like idiot. I wouldn't have picked up on like the whole like aesthetic thing like and how she's made to be cute and how and how Stanley tis like show

us your dress. I would have been like, wow, awsome dress, Like it wasn't clear enough. You're right that like doing that. Even though it's like as an adult that watches movies exclusively, this way I picked up right. But that's you know, we're watching it through the lens that we've trained ourselves to watch looking for. Also, does Stanley Tucci play the same character in this movie as he does in The Devil Worst Product? Question answer, yes, yes, yes, yes, a

thousand times. Yet I love the tuch but I do think that Alan Common could have played this just as well, and Alfred Molina could have played just as well. Alfred Molina interesting. Interesting for Melina is our best friend. I mean, he's great, but he just wouldn't have gone first. And it's real crime that I wouldn't. A lot of people make that mistake. A lot of people make the mistake of not going to Alfred Molina first. He's available to

do podcasts, so he can be in your movie. I'm really growing as a person just talking to you, guys. You're welcome. It's amazing. That's the true mission of this podcast is to get Alfred Molina cast in more roles. Just to go back to the weapons discussion very quickly. Um. According to a study from the Gina Davis Institute, which does a lot of great work, Fell and Olympic archer, which is what this is about. UM, I forgot about they.

The institute conducted a study that concluded that seven in ten girls who had taken up archery say that Catanets from The Hunger Games and Princess Meridith from Pixar's brave influenced their decision to take up archery. That's great and perfect. I buy it because I want to do it too, write I mean, and it shows something that we talk

about a lot, which is that representation matters. And this studies specifically about archery, but similar studies have been done about like showing women in computer science and other like stem fields and showing those women in those roles in media and not influencing girls and young women to pursue careers in those fields and stuff like that. So, I mean, the more you're represented, or the more a specific thing is represented, the more people, especially young people will think, oh,

I can do that too. Female ghostbusting has gone up nine um no, but that totally I mean, And that's why we're always like pushing for more movies about like women who are also athletes and stuff like that, because it does. It does make a difference. I think that one of the strengths of this movie is that so it is based on source material from a female author who also was allowed to adapt her own work for

the screen. There's three credited writer Suzanne Collins, Gary Ross, and a man bafflingly named Billy Ray Cyrus it's not we do not have the cyrus on me was like, finish the sentence they're hanging, Um, who I mean? And but it seems as if because they're both prolific screenwriters, that they probably had more of a role in just helping uh Suzanne Collins adapt. But she also has a

history of she was a TV writer. She wrote for Clarissa Explains It All and a number of other and the Mystery Files of Shelby woo, oh my god, so many female Yeah, so it is, and it is cool of like, I feel like it's not very common that, especially when there's like I think that this movie definitely

benefited from her adapting it. Like, god knows what would have happened if three men had adapted this work, and it would have made her too sexy and it would have rosy, which is another thing that I wanted to real Grossy Josie Grossy. And there's also a legendary female producer involved in this, Nina Jacobsen, who was one of the only women to head a Hollywood film studio ever. Um, so it seems like there were like women in power

who were steering this movie in the right direction. And then the last thing I wanted to mention was although there is a male cinematographer animal director, I felt like the way that Jennifer Lawrence, who is very often objectified and uh in movies like her body, is not made a feast of in this movie. Yea for a moment. Yeah, props to to movie for not you know, just making

it about her body. Most of the time, she's in full like I mean he talked about mother exclamation point and that's just like out of your relationship, Aaronosky, I don't want anything to do, but yeah, I mean, well instead it's just like a million, like very very tight

close up shots of her face and yeah, yeahs. I would just like to throw out there real quick that the album that came out that is not the soundtrack, but it's Hunger Games songs from District twelve, which are just like a lot of like kind of blue grassy and it's all that. It's just one that it's just that it's really good. That's so weird. Now there's this whole album where it's just like inspired by and it's really good, like Arcade Fires on their Nico Cases on

their District Must Be. It's like Coleman in country. It's like Appalachia, which is like where I grew up. Brag damn um proud, brag, proud Appalachia. Just like a quick fire list of of last thoughts I had. Hamage calls Catness sweetheart no less than like six times in the movie very annoying. He is not a feminist icon, and

I don't think he's framed as one. No, No, he's supposed to be a shout out to the I don't know if we ever learned her name or what district she's from, but the girl with red hair, oh double bun, double b that's a name. It is makes it almost all the way to the very end. Loved her and she's like another type who like doesn't want to kill anyone,

but she's just trying to outlast. And that's another thing I want to say, is that, like I was kind of worried that because female characters are so often presented in movies, is like having to be this polite, nice, never would do anything wrong because women are high held to a higher standard than men of like just being perfect and polite all the time, that like Catnets wouldn't kill anybody, that she would, or just like maybe passively kill someone, but she like she kills different people, and

I was like, does does does Peter kill anyone? I'm like, Peter does not kill anyone. I don't think it's too busy painting he is. He had took him six hours to paint himself like a rock, like he should have Realistically, he should have been killed in the time it took him like a paint And the only reason he got stabbed was because he wouldn't, like stop painting himself as a rock. When somebody attacked him. It was so he

was fully painted as a rock. And that guy was like running and tripped and fells like but he's like, he's like keeping together, got me again, don't feel rocks to last things real quick? Um. On the train to the capital, Hey, Mitch asks Catnis if she will pass the marmalade. So, mich is basically Paddington. So I mean, but I mean, I know Paddington is a million times better Stare. But so let me rephrase um feminist icon. I mean, you're not wrong, he is a feminist icon.

Mitch is trying to emulate Paddington in this scene, but he does not succeed because Hay Midge sucks and Paddington would give him a hard stare, and Paddington would never wear that wigton or be drunk. Paddington wears raincoat. I was gonna getting prepared to be wet there. Really he should have been in the Hungary game. He would have

died immediate, almost instantly. And then finally there is a cat that belongs to I think prim that hisses a catnet at the very beginning, just reminder that cats do have eight nipples and cat and I actually wow, I was on how many nipples does a cat miss have? I was on the phone with my boyfriend and I accidentally called her cat call Everdeen three times. I was like, yeah, cat call and he was like no, no, no, any other final thoughts. That's all right, let's does the movie

pass the Bechtel cats? It does, doesn't It never not pass the I mean when women are talking, it's rarely about a man kind of trying to say, like being hungry, what they should do if kind of dies, right, how they should not be Dystopia is going to be doing a lot for the Bechdel test. We just will not have time to talk about men. Yeah, talking about survival does that happen even once that that that it does

not pass that, like two women talk about men. I feel like maybe the dad comes out that what's her name, Elizabeth Banks? I think is maybe talking to her about the peta fakery something. But most of the time between like Catinus and prim Catiness and her mom Catiness and Effie and Rue, it's passing is always passing, which is which is very impressive for a movie this popular to like more often than not be passing for sure. Movie, let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to

five nipples based on representation and treatment of women. I'm gonna go with the I suppose us three because on one hand, it's like, okay, it, you got this like kick ass young woman who the young people who this franchise is for can like plug themselves into and see an awesome, kick ass, strong female protagonists represented on screen.

Really bugs me about the love triangle and the romantic relationship that feels very wedged in and unnecessary, the failure to be more inclusive when it comes to race and the casting choices, stuff like that. But it is cool that she gets to, you know, use a weapon to kill people with and not a frying pan, So points for that. Um, I'll give one nipple to Rue, I'll give one nipple to the tooch, and I'll give my last nipple to two buns, the girl with red hair

who survives almost the entire time. Clever clever Bus, I would watch a cartoon called clever Buns. Clever Buns. I'll go three point five on this one. I liked it. I liked it just like in general, I enjoyed the movie way more than I was expecting to, and like I had a lot of fun watching it for the most part. And yeah, I mean I think that they're this movie. It makes some pretty egregious errors in regards to how race is depicted, when it seems like the

source material was there for that to not happen. Um, so don't like that. I like Catness is character. I feel like she checks a lot of boxes, even though I found her to be boring personally. I guess the the thing I'm really deducting nipples for, if we're getting into the weeds on it is I just like I wish that Ru was not sacrificed to give Catness more, which again I think is sort of like if she were not the only woman of color. That would be

a less egregious thing. But because of the way it's presented, it's it's like it just seems like you're sacrificing one of your only black characters to reinforce the white woman woman's mission, which is like I don't love that. Uh, and and just kind of what we were all talking about with I feel like there's a lot of stuff that we picked up on in this movie that the

intended audience might not necessarily pick up on. So hitting I mean, in y A movies, you got you gotta really kind of hit the points rather hard for them to get across. Um, so I'll go I'll go three point five. Though I enjoyed it. I'll give one to prim because I liked her. I'll give one too clever Buns, give one to ru, and I'll give my happy to Mr Kravitz. Yes, very good, Kelly, I'm gonna do at three point seven five. Um love them when I gets the exact Yeah. Well, because I'm a little more okay

with the romance, just because I do like romances. I wish it was done better. All of my deductions are going to be because of mostly because of how race is kind of handled. I just think you can't help but look at this and with the like the things that we know now, the wetness of the wig is I'm that's maybe a full nipple that I think, So

the bulk of it is the wet wig. But like you know, I think because I actually I almost hate it more when things are too ham fisted and when things are too like bonking you on the head with like this is feminist, Like I am okay with it just because I'm being selfish and just purely rating this on how I'm liking it rather than like how I would have liked it at thirteen. To me, I think it did handle like, hey, this is kind of how the patriarchy is treating women and like kind of parading

them around and that kind of thing. So for me, that's that's why it sits at a pretty three point seven. So I'm gonna do one one for ever Buns because they did like her. She really ended up being the hero of this unsung hero. I was going to say she's the MVP of Hunger Games. She was. She was. She was really hustling, hustling. Um one for oh Catness's leather jacket at the beginning, UM one for Rue because I did really love Rue and I wished I also

wished she didn't die. And then point seven five to the touches teeth, they were so good. Thank you for not letting that drop off. Irresponsible of me as a Vineers scholar to not point out, yes, I mean just very like chick Lidy, Veneers really hold on. It's amazing you can understand a word. He says, yes, But he's a professional, professional, always a professional. What if he, like had to train ten hours a day. Tod talked with

those Veneers, I went to Veneer training, filming began. Um I so as far as like just full on movie review, I would do three nips as far as ethnic diversity, a mere one nip as far as female representation. And this is mostly based on the actual content and intention less. So on direction. I think direction is where the messaging fell short, perhaps and where things got muddy. I don't think it was the writing. I think the writing was very solid. So I'm gonna give it four. I'm gonna

give it four nips for just female representation. And that's one of the things where the Hunger Games fall short, where the Twilight franchise does not because the first installment of the Twilight franchise was directed by a woman, where you would think that the Hunger Games would benefit from a female director, because it would, and they did not

make the right choice. We gotta do more Twilight movies on the podcast, I think, but well, but then I don't think Katherine Hardwick ever directs a Twilight movie again, because sexism. Right, it's true, but it's true alright. Anyway, two to clever Buns, thank you, One to rue and one to Ruise. Really artfully done funeral bed. Oh, beautiful funeral bed. It's a suitiful funeral bed. Found a lot of good fan arts surrounding that honorable mention to Peter

as a rock. He doesn't, No one gave, but it's just it's just because rocks. He was in disguise so well, and rocks don't have nipples, so that is always concealed, that is covered in nipples. We're clever buns, buns just nipples, I mean a deep feminist reading desert real clever nips. Uh. Well, thanks to the both of you for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having us. This is very fun. What would you like to plug? Where can people follow

you online individually as a podcast you name it? I am Kelly Nugent. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Kelly nugi k E l l y n U g e E. If you have l Ray Network on your cable package, you can watch me on l Ray Nation that is Thursday nights, seven thirty pm Pacific, where I talk about all things pop culture. UM. You can listen to my podcast Same Day Shipping where I ship everyone with everyone, um. And you can also listen to me and Lindsay's podcasting Creeps, where we review y

pulp fiction like Christopher Pike, arl Stein and many many more. UM. I'll have to get you on the podcast. Now are come full circle? So I'm Lindsay Katie. You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at l I N D s A y K t A I. And please check out the Cartoon Network show Infinity Train, which is out there to find. Now. Finally, I'm very excited. I think everybody who watches it will like it. Hell yeah, incredible.

Thank you so much for coming, Thanks for having and may the odds ever be in your favorite Oh we off the plug stuff to u you can follow us, but it was like, um, are we going to keep going? You can catch us on all the social needs at back dol cast. You can uh sign up for our Patreon at Patreon a k Matreon at patreon dot com, slash batel Cast, where we're serving you two extra episodes a month four five dollars. What a bargain. And you can get our merch on our merch store at t

public dot com slash the Bectel Cast. We've got stay tuned for clever Buns, March, feminist icon, Peter as a rock. Yeah, that would be so good if you cause somehow get the like do something with a Chevy logo, like painted as a rock and then like Peter popping out of it or the huge gaping wound in his thigh. I love living in niche culture. That's a lot good. It's maybe that'll be in our roach store, but yeah, check

us out on all those places. Also bechtel cast dot com for our live appearances and things like that, because you know we have live shows here and there. Uh and once again, may the be ever in your favorite