The Handmaiden with Soyoung Chon

anything like that. Okay, well, I guess while we're on the topic, I wanted to let you know that I'm definitely not three steps ahead of you what with the trick, and I'm tricking you based on your trick, and your trick is actually a whole distraction. And it doesn't matter because we're going to fall in love at the end. At the end, all the tricks cancel each other out and it's uh, and we're gonna go on a boat.

I love that for us, Good for us. Yeah, I'm gonna seem I'm gonna seem like I've never been outside. But here's a twist. I have been outside a couple of times. Okay, at least all right, well, I love that we're learning so much about each other. We're in love. What can you do? Hello, and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Perfect intro as usual, amazing, we nailed it. My name

is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus. And this is our podcast where we look at your favorite movies, your least favorite movies, movies that you don't know how to feel about, using an intersectional feminist lens. And we use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point

to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it has many versions, and the one that we are using these days, and let's and and and we also have been finessing this formula. We've been finessing our little, our little twist on it for half a decade. At this point, it's true. The metric that we are using. The caveats, if you will, are that a movie has to have two characters of

any marginalized gender who have names. They must speak to each other about something other than a man. And ideally their conversation is meaningful, plot relevant, not just a throwaway exchange of dialogue or maybe it's in the case of this movie, a deceitful exchange. I love a good deceitful exchange. You know what it's allowed. And then something that we should bring up more often. Um, but it's especially relevant for a movie like this is that the test originally

appearing in Alison Becktel's Decks to Watch out For. In the context for that was that Alison Becktel's characters, who are queer women, would watch movies and pay attention to if the female characters in the movies they're watching speak to each other, and if so, do they talk about things besides a man? Because if so, then Alison Bechtel's characters could ship them together and pretend that they were

lesbians in the movie that they're watching. So that is the origins of the Bechtel test, speaking to the piss poor representation of any queer people in movies at the time the comic was published back in A five right, and then for a movie like this, no shipping required because the care actors do that for you. It's cannon. Yes, So the movie that we're talking about today is The Handmaiden, and we have a guest joining us. She's a pal of ours. She's a cyber security engineer. It's so young

chan Hi. Hello, welcome, Thank you for having me, thanks for being here, for being here. So we're interested in what is your relationship, your history, your general impression of The Handmaiden. Um. Yeah, I thought it was pretty wild from start to finish. Um. These types of movies don't don't really come out that much from South Korea because Korea is a pretty conservative country still, so this was a big shock when it came out featuring two lesbian

women and that that never that never happens. But I thought it was overall really really good, really new and groundbreaking for Korea. So that's what I thought. It was pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait to talk about it more. Jamie, what about you. I hadn't seen this

movie yet, and it rocked my world. I really like movies that really keep you on your toes like this where I guess if you haven't seen this movie, I would recommend honestly watching it because listening to us, like some movies, I feel fine spoiling for our listeners, but this movie. I'm so glad I didn't know any of the twists going in, because sometimes I'll go into a movie being like I've seen I've seen it all, and

then it turns out, guess what. I like half of my notes from the first half of the movie, I had to like highlight being like just kidding, I am, I am the fool, Like they got my ass. It's so tightly written, and I just, yeah, this was my my first time. I've seen it twice. I feel like this is a movie that really delivers on a rewatch and I just really enjoyed it. Holy holy shit. I am just not as smart as this movie. I'm not

operating on this level. And it was a pleasure to be in a world where I was like, oh, yeah, I would have Um, I don't know what would have happened to be if I existed in this world. I would have I would have just died because everyone is operating like everyone's playing four D h S the entire movie. It's wonderful. Yeah, Caitlyn, what's your history of this movie? O?

G whiz. I saw it not right when it came out, but I remember there being buzz around it because it was released in the US sometime I think in the back half of and then it won the Oscar for Best Movie not in the English language. Yeah, for like the Oscars. So I was like, oh, all right, got to see it. Exciting. So I was still getting Netflix devids at the time, so I took it upon myself to borrow rent or whatever have Netflix send me a DVD.

And I don't normally do this, but I watched the movie and then as soon as it was over, I immediately watched it again because I was like, WHOA, holy shit.

I don't even want to process that. I just want to like rewatch it and just have a better understanding of what happened, because, like you said, there's so many twists, there's so many layers there's and so I've seen the movie I think like six or seven times now, and every time I watch it, I discover something new or like notice like a new little clue, or like a bit of foreshadowing or some like plant and payoff, or just like some detail that I had overlooked before. So yeah,

it definitely holds up on a rewatch. The twists are so intricate that or like some of the reveals are just like I won't remember what happened, so like, every time rewatch it, it's like I'm seeing it for the first time. So I'm just like, whoa, And it's it's beautiful to look at. It's mesmerizing. Yeah, the story is so tightly written. I love this movie so and the history behind the movie is also really interesting. I didn't know about like all the adaptation stuff going on in

this movie, so I'm very excited to talk about it. Yeah. I also, in preparation for this episode, watched the BBC like two episode mini series Fingersmith. She's okay, yes, well, then I was also like, Sally Hawkins is in this. Paddington's mom is in this. Obviously I have to watch it. See I always think of Sally Hawkins. I'm about to sound like I hate women. I'm like, she's the lady who had sex with the fish in the movie. I know that lady, but that was reductive and I apologize,

but she did have sex with a fish. I mean, you're not wrong, I'm not, but I should remember the character's name. I just know it was Sally Hawkins. Well, she's definitely Mrs Brown in the Paddington franchise, so I did watch Fingersmith, and um, do you like it? I did it, So just some context for anyone who's um

not aware. This movie is based on a novel called Fingersmith by Sarah Waters that was published in two two I think so obviously we did not read the book because we famously on this podcast do not read books. It probably won't to stop people from getting mad at us for not reading a book, but listen, the show

is free. I don't know what to tell you, but I did watch this adaptation and probably like the second half of Fingersmith is pretty wildly different from the second half of The Handmaiden, where I like the ending of the hand Made In way better. And I don't know if that's just because like I saw it first and my brain just works that way, where I'm like, well, the first thing I saw is the thing that I like better because it happens all the time with me. But uh, I don't know. I feel that it gives

the characters more agency. Yeah, I I like the handmade in better. I like the narrative choices that were made there. So yeah, it's a It's the rare movie where I feel like we're constantly complaining about how movies are. Movies are long, but this movie is two and a half hours long, and it does not feel two and a half hours long, which is incredible a miracle. Yeah, should I get into the recap? Yeah, yeah, let's let's do it. And so I feel free to jump in at any time.

It's a free for all. Absolutely, thank you. Okay. So the story takes place in Japanese occupied Korea, so both Korean and Japan These are spoken by almost every major character throughout the movie. I believe we are in the thirties, although the decade wasn't super clear, but I read in interviews that, yeah, it's supposed to be the thirties. Okay. Cool. The story is divided into three parts. Part one, we meet Suki, a pickpocket, a forger. She's like a common thief.

We also meet a Korean man from a low class who is masquerading as a Japanese nobleman. He's going by the name Count Fujiwara. I kept calling him Count all off in my head because anytime someone introduces themselves as account, I was like, okay, all counts are con men. This is a trend in media. All accounts are lying about being a count and they're where they're always wearing a hat and um lying, that's my knowledge accounts and I think that's canon. Yeah, this Ivan does this count challenge

that he does not, it's true. So he helps Suki get a job as a handmaiden to Lady Hitigo, and he does this because he intends to seduce Lady Hitiko, marry her, put her in like quote, a madhouse so that he can steal her fortune, and he needs Suki's help to do all this. So Suki, using a fake name,

meets Lady Hideko and starts tending to her. She spends most of her days helping her uncle Kazuki with his rare books, which he collects and sells, and then he also hosts private events where Hitiko does readings from the

books for rich Japanese gentleman rights. And the meaning of rare books is really stretched and challenged later in Yes, her uncle is It becomes apparent pretty early on, and then even more apparent later on that he is extremely creepy and he's also trying to marry how to go to get access to her fortune also something that count all offs trying to do all the time, just a lot of count connections here? Oh my god? Right, counts are always trying to marry people under false pretenses to

get access to a fortune. I need to write a think piece about this. Doesn't count all off pretend to be those children's uncle too, or some family member. He pretends to be a distant relative in order to adopt them. I mean, I didn't, I didn't even put that together. If anyone ever introduces them as a count, walk away, they're lying. What's the story of the count of Money Monte Crystal? Oh? I know I saw that movie, but no idea. I feel like there's some deception involved there

as well. Is okay, this is not the Count of Monte Cristo. Is that related to the sandwich? Or is the sandwich a separate thing? Monte Cristo sandwich? Is Monte Cristo a place? Um? I think they're also. I was just born this morning. I think they're all extremely not only connected, but identical. What is even in a Monte Cristo sandwich? You know what I'm that's one where they like there's ham and there's cheese, and you're like panini it and then there's like powdered sugar on top. There's

always such a scam. When someone makes a very simple sandwich sounds extremely fancy and they're like, it's it's like Monte Cristo at seventeen dollars, and then you get it. You're like, this is ham and cheese. How dare you anyway? Speaking of the Count, yes, he gets to work on seducing Lady Hideko under the guise of giving her painting lessons. Meanwhile, Suki and Heideko are getting closer and they are clearly

attracted to each other. And the further into the scam Suki gets of like helping the fake Count Mary hidego, the more Suki wants to back out, especially after one night when Lady Hideko wants Suki to teach her how to kiss so that she will be ready to kiss the Count, and then they end up having very steamy sex. Suki has no choice but to keep going along with

the scam, and the two of them run away. They travel with the Count to Japan, the Count Mary's Hideko, and then he and Suki take Hideko to be institutionalized. But wait a minute, turns out it the Count and Hiteko had been the ones who were tricking Suki and they send Suki to the institution. I gasped right when edeko uh. At first, I was like, what is going on? Because she hugs Suki and then she walks backward really quickly, and I was like, what is happening? And then it

was the twist. But wait, there's more. There's more. There's two more parts. So this is the beginning of part two. We learned what the real situation is with Lady Hiteko. She's not this like virginal, naive lady that we all thought she was. The books of her uncle's that she does readings for our very pornographic something that he's been training her to do ever since she was a child,

which is what disgusting. Yeah, and this is like, this is something he's done with like other members of the family, to like with her aunt as well. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Yes, So when the Count first meets her, he realizes that he would never be able to seduce her, so then he forms a different plan, which is to collaborate with her, take her away from this place and set her free, and then they will split her fortune. And then it's her idea to find a handmaiden and

send her to the institution under her name. So then a lot of the same story beats play out that we've seen before, but this time through hiokos point of view, with like Suki arriving and tending to her and convincing her that she's in love with the count. But then eventually, because Hitiko and Suki are falling in love, Hiteko also wants to back out of the plan right and then finally the two of them reveal to each other that they have been tricking each other. So seen is so

good but scary but good. Where Lady hit the I goes about to take her own life. She's about to hang herself, and then Suki catches her, and everyone watching the scene has an anxiety attack of like, I hope that she has strong arms, uh, and this whole scene have it's It's really good. These two actors together are

incredible for sure. So now their new plan is to team up with each other against Count Fujiwara, and then right before they're about to run away, they also destroy the Uncle's treasured book collection as basically a like fuck you dude gesture, and then we realize that when Suki is taken to the institution. It's all part of the plan. So then part three is Suki escapes from the institution by lighting it on fire. I was slightly confused about the logistics, but by that point in the movie I

was like, Yeah, sure, she liked it on fire. I believe it. Meanwhile, Hitiko drugs the Count, escapes and meets up with Suki. They flee and get on a ferry to Shanghai. And then the Count has been captured and brought back to the uncle's estate where the uncle tortures him. And then the Count smokes a couple of cigarettes laced with mercury, which poisons the air and kills both the men, and then we cut back to the ferry where Suki and Hitiko have more steamy sex. And that's how the

movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss. And we're back, where do we Caitlin, I'm genuinely curious just to start, what is different about the ending of the BBC adaptation, because I know that the largest adaptation change is obviously changing the setting and the I think the time period was shifted as well. I think it's a Victorian England to nineteen thirties Japan and Korea. But what what is different

about like the plot points of the ending. So yeah, the first half plays out basically the same, but in Fingersmith the two women never collaborate. They never say, oh, you're tricking me, I was tricking you. Wow, Let's team up together and take down these male oppressors. That does not happen. Instead, the handmade in character ends up in the institution and then stays there for a while, does

still escape. Meanwhile, the lady character like is taken to London after this marriage, and she keeps trying to escape and they're like, no, we still have to get your

fortune from you. Uh. So she eventually is able to run away and goes to one of like the book collectors that her uncle knows, but then he turns her away, so she has to go back to the home base of all the like the Thief House, basically in London, which, by the way, the sort of like matron character is played by Amelda Staunton, who is of course Aunt Lucy from Paddington's Okay I'm with Yes, So there's a lot

of Paddington connections in Fingersmith. So and then that like matriarch character is like, hey, royal lady person, by the way, you were switched at birth with this handmaiden lady, and so she's the actual lady, and you're I think maybe I'm getting that totally wrong because things got also very confusing at that part. The handmaiden is better. Yeah what I'm hearing right, Yeah, So there's some like switched at birth scandal can't introduce switched at birth at the end

this fourth grade. And then so the count guy who they call whose name is like the gentleman in Fingersmith, comes around at some point and gets murdered by unclear which person it was. It was either like the lady or the Amelda Stanton character, but Amelti Stans character takes the blame for it, and then she is hanged. So that sort of now that all these people are dead, she goes back to her like estate with all the books, and then Sally Hawk like the handmaid and character comes

back and they sort of like reconcile. So the huge difference is that there's never a team up. There's never like a co conspirator like let's take the men down kind of thing. They just sort of like have to forgive each other, and then there's some like class stuff of like you're not who you think you are, and it's also kind of confusing. So that's Fingersmith. It sounds interesting, but long I like this better. Yeah, okay, well, thank you,

thank you for thank you for sharing that. I I wasn't aware how how much the source material deviated from this adaptation. Yeah, it's pretty significant. Or I mean again, because we haven't read the book. Who who knows what happens there? Who knows how much that BBC adapt adaptation deviated from the original source material. But The Handmaiden is pretty drastically different in the second half of it from Fingersmith the BBC series, UM got it? Yeah, so yeah.

And because of that, one of the things I like about this movie so much is that it's a story about men trying to exploit women and pit women against each other, which doesn't work because the women talk to each other and then they're like, wait a minute, these men are trying to suck us over, so they instead team up and punish. They're like again the male oppressors, and then they get together and they live happily ever after. God, I hope so or at least happily on the ferry,

they at least have an amazing cruise. So as you started to talk about So Young in terms of like this being a pretty groundbreaking film for South Korean cinema, in terms of it's like queer representation, Yeah, just curious if you have any other thoughts on that or yeah, because you know, queer representation, it's just it's not there's not a lot in Korean media and stuff like that, even in you know, songs and stuff, and while it's still while it's changing and people are becoming a lot

more open to it, it's still not on the forefront like it is in America or you know, other countries. So this was a you know, this was a pretty big deal for not even it's not even like two gay men, because that would have been still more something that you would see, but to two women that that is unheard of. So this was, Yeah, this was pretty

groundbreaking in that way, and I appreciate it. I saw, like I guess, mixed reception of of the sex scenes and how they were filmed and framed, and I'm interested

to talk about that as well. But I did appreciate that, like, this movie is not shy at all about what it's about and about this like intense sexual connection that these two women have, because I feel like we I mean, even in covering other movies on this podcast, you know, very often when there is a relationship between two women, you get a fade to black situation or you you don't get the sex scene that appears in many PG thirteen movies between a man and a woman. And so

I was, yeah, pleasantly surprised to see. I was like, oh, we're we're getting sex scenes. That's exciting. I'm very pro sex, especially like and this would have been more common in at least like older American movies. But I just remember that episode that we did on Fried Green Tomatoes where the source material like more explicitly makes it clear that the characters are queer. But then the movie, because it's like a movie from the nineties, not even suggests it.

It's just like they're friends. They're friends who don't kiss each other like they're friends, and they lived together for such a long time, which based on how you described, like the history of queer representation in South Korean cinema so young, you might expect there to be more of a like coding of like that relationship. Even if like the two characters like do team up and like screw over the men, that the precedent was set, it sounds like to not get very explicit about the nature of

their relationship. So the fact that we do it is very explicit, and we do see steamy sex scenes, which again we'll talk about. But yeah, I was like, I thought that was I thought that was really cool because I did a little bit of just kind of I'm by no means an expert in Korean media and certainly

not in like queer representation of it. But there is a very helpful Wikipedia, our favorite scholarly journal page specifically about queer representation in Korean media and that how according to two scholars pill Ho Kim and see Colin Singer, there are three pretty distinct waves of queer representation in Korean cinema. Where there's like an invisible age from nine seven where there was like minimal, very minimal l g

B t Q plus representation in film. But those films were like relegated to the sidelines, like they didn't get publicity, they were not mainstream. Most people didn't see them. They like flew under the radar, and then there was the Camouflage age from two thousand four, where representation grew during that period, but queer characters and themes were still sidelined

and overshadowed by more heteronormative characters and themes. And then finally the blockbuster age from two five to the present, where cultural acceptance of queer people in queer communities in South Korea as well as queer representation in media has just kind of like been on the rise and been more tolerated and accepted. So which like doesn't sound that unlike the trend of queer representation and American Hollywood cinema to be honest. Yeah, it's just a little slower, a

little more behind, right. Another trip that I really liked that this movie because we've we've been covering a number of query movies recently, and I think it was in our Portrait of a Lady on Fire episode where we discussed the trope that it's also a very white trope ordinarily, but when there is a period piece with a lesbian couple that it's all very doomed, it's all very like it.

It never ends well for the couple. The couple never is able to survive the adversity, which is in some ways at odds with many historical examples, but that is the trend that movies have taken. And so when I when I learned this was a period piece, I was like, Oh, no, are we going to get another you know, doomed queer couple that and and we don't they win? Like they win, and I mean it was I guess it does kind of demonstrate how going for scraps we still have to

be at times. But I was like, they their their love survives, they overcome the adversity. It's not like, you know, an ending where they're just like, I wonder what could have been, Like they're on the damn boat having sex. I was thrilled that that they ended up together at the end, And because it's yeah, and in period pieces especially,

I feel like that is kind of rare. Yeah, I think it legit shocked me given the historical context of the of the movie, because you know, during that time, it was like a lot of people died, so it wouldn't it wouldn't have been strange to kind of see that ending with the fact that it was a happy ending. I mean, that was that was amazing. I was like, absolutely,

I'm here for it. Yeah. In the Catharsis of like the two men dying, cut to two women just like putting jingle bells in there for joying and having a ball. I guess that's one literally no pun intended having a ball, and oh god, the that. There were moments where I like, this movie is just straight up smarter than me in certain ways where I was like, oh, yeah, like I know that the bell. I was like, the bell is a metaphorical object. I can pick up on that much.

And so when they're fucking each other with the bells, I'm like, this means something. I don't know what, but definitely something. It's a metaphorical thing. And I and and sure, and I totally understand. Yeah, I don't know what the bells are a metaphor for, but I feel like I don't need to know. I don't know. I every time I'm just like, it's a metaphor for dot dot patriarchy. I don't actually really know. Uh. I think the bells they were in um one of the books that the

lady she read. I think they're just kind of like, oh, I'm going to reclaim it. You know, it's not part of this weird, creepy whatever thing that I'm doing from my uncle. It's like our love things. That's what I thought. I don't know, because it's like uses their uses a weapon at one point, and okay, maybe I do understand. Oh, but those are a different set of metal balls that are used, like Okay, then I'm lost again. Yeah, I

think that was stove, that was right. The bells Okay, no, they look similar, but no, but you're right, so young where she was, because it's this difference of she's being forced against her will to read these stories solely for the sake of the pleasure of all of these men, and then when we actually see her use those toys, materials, the items, the bells, the bells, now, it's like they're on her terms and she's not doing it for these creepy men. She's doing it for herself. So it's like

a nice, just symbolic thing. I also noticed in that scene when she's reading about because that's the only scene I think where she's doing a reading from one of those books that does involve two women, and we see her like pat her little handkerchief, like pat down her like perspiration, as if to say, Wow, that actually got me excited because of all the other the other scenes where she's doing readings about like a penis going into a vagina, She's just like not interested, do not care,

and a penis going into a vagina in a pretty a pretty mean way most of the time, like that they're they're not they're very unpleasant stories that all these

guys are getting extremely aroused by. It's all like, I mean, I guess that that is like so much of what comes up in the movie is like the the men of this story policing and controlling the women in their lives and controlling their bodies sexually, controlling their bodies in terms of like Lady Hideko is literally like trapped in this castle kind of Princess Peach style, and it's it's like about the extreme control of women's bodies and and

an attempt to control their minds which doesn't succeed. But yeah, I don't know, I mean, it's it's so And and then also in the case of the uncle, this really volatile nature of like repeated intimidation of his wife who eventually takes her own life, and and his niece. No he it's implied that he kills her, but but it's

played off as though she killed herself. But in any case, like it repeatedly like instilling them with fear and threats, and then when they respond to that, they're framed as hysterical in this very I mean, I guess you're like, well,

it's theties, of course that is happening. But um, it was interesting seeing it framed the way it was, where it was like even with that deception that they're like, oh, she she took her own life, you know, because she you know, she was suffering from something that we don't really know what was going on, when it's like so clear what is going on in this house where women are just brutalized and if I don't know, I mean it's it's it's really brutal in some um in some

sections of this movie, to the point where you know, when the when the count and the uncle kind of get their come up into at the end, you're like, thank god, Uh yeah, especially with the reveal that the uncle has been basically grooming her since childhood to read this like erotic literature, that's straight up child sex abuse. And so when he keels over and dies, I was like, it's about damned time. Um, let's take another quick break and then we will be right back, and we're back.

We we've referenced this already. But so Fingersmith was the inspiration for this story. It sounds like it deviates kind of significantly in the back half. But um, I was, you know, pleasantly surprised, knowing nothing about the background of this movie, to find that it had been adapted by a text by a queer woman, by a Welsh author named Sarah Waters, who wrote this in two thousand two. And I thought that just I don't know all the information on adapting this movie and adapting that story to

Japan and Korea in this time period. I I learned a lot, having h having gotten you know, a piss poor American education that this same this period of history in Korea and Japan. I was not well versed in. I knew kind of the main bullet points, but learning more about the annexation of Korea and just the complete culture, erasure and colonialism that was going on at this time was not something that I was very well versed in.

And it doesn't sound like it was something that Sarah Waters, a Welsh author, was very well first in as well, and so there will link this in the description. But it's just a very interesting adaptation story. Where Sarah Waters was at first, um not sure whether Park Chun Wook, who is the director of this movie and many other movies. He's kind of has a reputation for being a hyper masculine director, like he directs pretty like he directed Old Boy.

He directed all these like really male driven movies, and so at first she was like, I don't does this make sense. Once they like discussed collaborating and hester and and he also wrote this script with female co writer Chung I hope that I'm getting right Chung cho kieong um, who he's worked with a number of times over the years. So he had he had a female co writer and they proposed this time shift, and that was what got

Sarah Waters on board. So I just I don't know, it's it's it's a really cool story of and I feel like this time period in the setting like fit the stories so effortlessly and also kind of I mean, based on what you're saying about the BBC adaptation, Caitlin, sounds like it sort of expands the scope of what the story is able to explore because it's you know, not only is it examining class in a lot of ways, and it's like examining queerness and it's examining patriarchy, but

it's also touching on this you know, extreme period of colonialism and really aggressive cultural erasure in a way. It sounds like the source material didn't because of where, where and when it was set. So um, yeah, yeah, it's just a really interesting story. Yeah. Like I was like, turns out I know nothing about this period of history. Let me read the Wikipedia page. And it's just like in the US, we're just like not taught about this period of time at all. Yeah, so, uh, this movie

inspired me to like learn about it. So I did read the first several paragraphs of the Wikipedia page about it. Well, we'll link to some resources in uh in the description as well, if you like us got a very limited shitty education the United States. Yeah, I just wanted to add, like, I think one of the interesting things is, like, so the brutality of the men, right, the men were pretty

terrible and they did pretty terrible things. But during this time, you know, there was a lot of anti Japanese sentiment obviously because of what was happening and I thought it was really interesting because these two men are very pro Japanese, right, they want, you know, doing all these things, but they're Korean, and so it kind of showed the whole, you know, in my personal opinion, it showed a whole like all the Koreans who kind of portrayed, you know, our country

in a sense, we're worse than the Japanese people who invaded our country. So I did find that that's a very interesting framing of that from pac John because you know, during this time it was such a you know, was obviously about time, but kind of that shine through the very you know, don't be this type of person during this horrible time in which you know, this thing's happened.

So yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. There there's like that whole conversation they have where it's like a reveal later in the movie that the uncle has done the same thing that the Count is in the middle of doing, which is yeah, you know, saying their their Japanese when they are not and being generally villainous. And but there's like that whole conversation they have where the uncle is talking about how he that Korea is ugly and Japan is beautiful,

and the Count says, oh, you know, that's interesting. I've heard people say the exact opposite, and it's like the I don't know, I mean, and again I'm I'm not extremely educated in this period of history at all, but just even opening this story to make room for discussion about that, and it does seem like Park chinook Is is making kind of a value judgment of of these characters through their behavior outside of of the colonial history. It's it's it's it's you know, I never want to

see someone's fingers chopped off by like a paper cutter. Uh. I guess that's the end of the sentence. But you know, it's like if it had to happen to someone, I'm like, the Count is terrible, and and as the as the story goes on, you just realize more more angles from which he is terrible, and so when they take his fingers off with a paper cutter, it's like, you know, yeah, okay, fine, fine, I'll allow it. Yeah no, Uh, both the Count and the uncle got what they deserved as far as I'm concerned,

because you know, they're both abusers, their manipulators. I mean, we see a scene where the Count tries to sexually assault Hittigo. These are awful, awful men, and so I appreciate that we see toxic male behavior being punished because they end up dying because the women were very clever in their like orchestration of this scheme to get back at them. And I thought that was really cool to see. You often don't see toxic male behavior punished in movies.

So yeah, I just appreciated that a lot. And it does seem like they really I mean, both of those characters are leve viridging the most dominant advantage they have,

which is the fact that they're men. And it is I feel like any you know, any empathy you could generate for these characters, who are to an extent in a really difficult situation as Korean men at this time of intense colonialism, is completely undercut by the fact that they're taking it out on the women around them, the people who have less power than them, and elevating themselves at the expense of the people who have less power.

And there's there were some like interesting moments I found interesting with account where he says these things that sound so cutting and cruel, but you can sort of understand why he's saying them, even if you don't agree with it.

Where he's saying, you know, where I come from, it's illegal to be naive, and sort of referencing the fact that he's from the underclass and he's from he's Korean, he's from a really oppressed group of people at this time, and so you can understand why he would say that. But what he's talking about is deceiving a Korean woman and throwing her in jail essentially, and it's yeah, yeah, it's almost like blaming her and it's like you shouldn't

have trusted anybody. Yeah, ever, right, Yeah, it's it's all very fascinating and the yeah, the way that these really terrible men in the movie are punished for their like upholding of the patriarchy is very exciting to watch in a way that doesn't really I mean, it kind of happens in Fingersmiths, but like, again, the major change that I really appreciate is the two women like realizing that they're in love with the other. That kind of prompts

them to admit what's going on. Then they're like, yeah, I'm upset that you tricked me, but also I was tricking you, so I can't be that upset. But now that we know what the real situation is, let's team up. And now there's a third trickery happening against the count. So I love a movie with tricks. It's exciting. Um, should we talk a little bit more about the sex

scenes slash the mail Gaze. Yeah, let's get into where So, like we mentioned, there have been mixed reviews about this where some of the discussion around this film was how the movie deconstructs or transcends the mail gaze. I think more based on the events of the story and how like these women team up and collaborate and take down

the men, rather than the sex scenes themselves. Because other critics have been like, um, well, it is a movie about lesbians with some graphic sex scenes that were shot by a director and cinematographer who are both men, and the sex scenes are really long and and quite graphic, and you know, there's still male gaze involved because of the people who are capturing this imagery and delivering it

to an audience. And then other people were like, but what about the part of the movie where there's like a shot from the point of view of Heidako's volva, where like we just see Suki like leaning in with her tongue out about she had a goal pro on her LA is essentially the shot, and so it's like, well, how could that be the male gaze when it's literally from the point of view of a vagina. And then so there's you know, there's a lot of sides to this argument. I'm curious how the both of you feel

about this. I think, Okay, look, I think the sex scenes were over the top. That's just my personal opinion. I think it was a lot and very graphic and almost like unnecessarily graphic, honestly, And I do agree. It's a male director, it's a male cinematographer, so there is a male gaze there especially. I don't know the director obviously, but just kind of like how much do they really know about how the sex scene should go, you know,

and like in other lgbt Q movies. So I'll say, yeah, that's like my main criticism it is it's a lot. It's definitely almost too much. And I think if you didn't have it that graphic or whatever, it wouldn't have taken away from the story whatsoever. So I think, yeah, I think it was a little too much. I wasn't sure. I mean I was interested to read through all the different takes, and it's like, you know, if if you loved the sex scene, that's great. I didn't. I mean,

I liked that there was a sex scene there. I didn't have any issue with that because I feel like, you know, very often, like we're talking about earlier, when there's a lesbian relationship, it's all very like Wink wink fade to black in mainstream movies, but the scenes are very long. They're extremely long. The go pro shot through me. Uh, he also get the same sex scene twice from like

two different points of view. I guess yeah. I mean, knowing that it was directed and filmed by men, I feel like kind of tells you what you need to know. And I was also interested in This came from a Guardian profile of Sarah Waters, who wrote Fingersmith at the time The Handmaiden came out and kind of like clarified.

I was like, what is so essentially what it says is in in the book, which we're not going to read, but in in the book, I guess, uh, you know, Sarah Waters very often writes lesbian romances in her work, but a lot of what she's known for is just talking about women's bodies very frankly, in a way that like incorporates things like sweat and like pubic hair and just things that are kind of a glossed over and a lot of big movie sex scenes and present this

very idealized version of what lesbian sex looks like. And I and that is like made clear in the story too, where you know, like when Lady high Deco is reading this, you know, pornographic literature, they're referencing the vagina repeatedly as like hairless, smooth, like this mythic thing that those who have vaginas are, Like, okay, sure, like it's somehow like pearly white, made of jade, the jade gates, you know,

and they're like folds of like gore. You're like, okay, but sparkles and shimmers and but there's also other stuff going on. Um. And it seems like her work was kind of known for just like talking about bodies in that way that was like very sexual, but also about actual bodies and not this like mythic view of what

bodies are. And I felt like the sex scenes in this movie didn't really meet that where it's still felt even though the other side of that came across clearly that it's like listening to her half to talk about this really unrealistic view of what a vagina looks like day after day is clearly wearing on her and is ridiculous and male gazy. The sex scenms, I feel like, didn't really challenge that enough. I don't know, I don't know.

My personal opinion is that they were they were long. Yeah, I'm like of two minds about it, where I think it's cool that we do get more of a foray into lesbian sex than you tend to see in mainstream movies, just because of like our heteronormative society and so much

phobia around queer sex. There's just been a tendency to shy away from it, or skirt around it, or just not feature it, especially because when it's lesbian sex there is double the focus on female pleasure, which is something that even in hetero sex scenes and just again culture at large, the idea of female pleasure is terrifying to

a large chunk of the population. So further to be, this emphasis on female pleasure in the sex scenes is cool and exciting, but the sex scenes linger on for longer than we need, and ultimately they are by the very nature of who is making this film shot through the male gaze and interpreted through the male gaze, and even sort of the way in which the like the

blocking of the sex scenes feels it's a lot. It's it's just knowing there is a man on the other side of the go pro it feels it's like, it feels fetishy, the way some straight men are like, oh yeah, getting it on, that's so hot. I agree, And I feel like that is like another thing that it seems like, I mean, just based on doing basic research on this production team that Park Chinook very often collaborates with the same group of people, and this is a cinematographer he

works with a lot. But it's like if again, it's like when we talk about this with male directors all the time, of like, if you are dead set on adapting this story, then you need to be flexible in who you're working with, and you need to like really make sure you have people in the room who will just be able to speak to the experience, because otherwise

there's going to be stuff that feels dissonant. I did read an interview with the director in which he addresses these sex scenes, and it seems like his general intention was that he understood how like delicate of a thing this would be to shoot, and he wanted to be as considerate and respectful to the actors as possible, because that's always something we're like, Okay, these actors have to be naked in front of a bunch of people, they

have to be physically close with another actor simulating sex, and depending on different factors, this has the potential to be very uncomfortable for actors. So I found this interview in which he it seems like, you know, he he did his very best, although some of the answers are funny where he's like, that day, we hired a woman to be the boom operator for that day on set, and it's like, well, is that the only circumstances where you would hire a woman to be or boom operate?

But it seems like he was like fully aware of the situation. He wanted to make everyone as comfortable as possible. So there was like very minimal crew on set for those scenes. The DP and the camera operator were not on set that they were using like a remote controlled camera. I hope there's like an intimacy coordinator or something of

that nature. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because so if any listeners are not aware, if a movie or TV production has a sex scene, ideally they will hire what's called an intimacy coordinator, who is there to advocate for the well being and safety of the actors who participate in sex scenes or just like kind of any other physically intimate scenes. Again, ideally a set will

of this person, but that's not always the case. And as far as whether or not an intimacy coordinator was present on this set, that did not get spoken of, So I I am not sure. I really hope. So, oh my god, if you're that naked, please have a person who is your advocate there, that is I hope he he just forgot to mention that person. Yeah, that did not come up in the interview, but at least it sounds like he made an effort. I didn't find anything on how the actors felt about those scenes, about

you know, whether they were comfortable. I hope so. But yeah, it's also sort of like, okay, if you have to take so many leaps and bounds to make the shooting of this safe for the actors. It's also a question of like, Okay, do I like, does this absolutely you

need to happen this way? Or I feel like they're I mean, in the erotic thriller genre in general, I feel like sometimes it's like, I don't know, I'm generally showing up for the thriller elements, and then if people are fucking amazing, that's great, but that's not like what what I'm like, what the bulk of the movie is. Um, But yeah, I feel like that those seeds were like, Okay, this is an erotic thriller, get it, especially because like, I'm also interested on your both of your thoughts on

this as well. But to me, there's far more of an emphasis in the movie on their sexual connection and like their physical attraction than there is on like an actual like what do they have in common? Why do they like each other? I didn't get a big sense of that. But also maybe I'm forgetting some stuff. I do think. Yeah, I think there's more emphasis on the sexual parts. I think with the emotional like aspect of it.

The part that sticks out to me is like the time when they're when Suki is destroying all the books and the paintings and whatnot, and she's like so angry because she understands, you know, what has been happening. She destroys everything, and the Lady Jadeko is just you know, standing there, just like not fully sure on what to do. She's just like, what is happening? I don't know. I feel like that, Like on an emotional level, was like

I don't know. I felt that. I was like, oh, that's really sweet because you know, they're kind of their worlds are colliding in this moment where it's like she kind of like is thinking, oh, I thought you were this rich girl who doesn't really understand anything, but it's like, no, you're you're victimized the way I'm victimized, just in different aspects, you know. So I feel like that's kind of how the world is collided in that sense. That's what That's

what I saw. That's the scene I remember. Yeah, I felt a similar way where it's you know, I guess that you learn more about their emotional connection in the back half, where like part one definitely doesn't give you everything you need, but also part one gives you a completely false impression of who Lady Hideko is. Like I feel like if we were just like all my notes from part one was like, oh my gosh, like Lady Hideko is on this like born sexy Yesterday thing going on,

and she's just like, I don't what is sex. I've never heard of that, and you know, and and in a way that I thought like the movie had fun with later where they kind of poke fun at Suki for being like, wow, this must just you must have incredible instincts for being like, yeah, you're natural. That made

me laugh. Uh, But I I thought that, I mean, I don't know, I felt like any relationship where they just surprised each other and like, I don't know, I'm I'm always like kind of a sucker for relationships like that, and it is like, you know, kind of like definitely a class story we've seen before. Let's say Titan Titan perhaps, but where where you know, it's it's like they have very rigid ideas of who this person is going to be and they end up getting surprised by that person

having a lot more to them than they expected. So I was on board for the love story. I I got why they were drawn to each other as people, and I think, you know, we definitely could have spent more time with it um and with with them as that relationship was building, but especially those like longer scenes in part one when you reflect on them and you're like, oh, like lady Hideko is playing four D chess and she knows exactly what's going on, and even still she's like

falling for Suki. I don't know. I was on board for the romance. I thought it was I thought it was like a classic you know, star cross levers across

classes kind of thing. Sure, you just contrived in itself, but like, I think we could have shortened those sex scenes and given us like one or two more signifiers of just like, oh, yeah, here's what they bond over, here's the thing that they both like, or here's a little thing that they have in common, because I don't really I still don't have the strongest sense of that.

And it's one thing, you know, if a movie wants to present this connection just as a sexual connection, like obviously not every connection between people needs to be this deep, intimate, long lasting love, but I feel like the movie frames their connection as deep love. So I don't know, But now I'm just picturing Titanic. If Titanic were like Billy Zane and Rose collaborating to trick Jack Dawson into something.

But it turns out wait a minute, Rose and Jack are collaborating to trick Billy Zane and get his fortune. Everything remaps onto Titanic. It's just nature. Um, it's unavoidable. And that's something that I also like, It's a trope we talked about a jillion times, but relationships that are founded on lies, you know, that was like I was

aware of very early in the movie. But again, I feel like this movie kind of like finds its way out of the trappings of that where the lies are found out and they simply admit it and apologize to each other and then like take action in a positive direction where I feel like, you know, we've covered five trillion movies at this point. That is like there's a dare that involves a lie and it makes sense but

not really. And then at the end, the you know, the person lying usually in this heterosexual relationship is like Freddy Prince Jr. And he's like, I don't know, I told a lie and I'm not even sorry and I apologize. This movie, you know, like skirts, all of those things where it is just everything is a lie at the beginning. But then there's that great scene where uh Suki catches Lady Hideco and they have this this just very emotionally

raw conversation. They're both crying, they're both being honest, and then and then they singlehandedly destroyed the patriarchy at the end. So there. Yeah, Also, I mean they're both victims of this patriarchal structure. They're both they have a lot of trauma that they have been subjected to. So yeah, I mean it makes sense that they bond again. I just

I wish there was just to smidge more. There's also that moment that I don't know in the different it makes me want to like watch it back again because I feel like this, like this movie does like give you a lot back once you know what's going to happen in the middle. But even the ways that like

their patriarchal structure influences their assumptions of each other. Where at the beginning, like Suki, we hear her talking in voiceover a lot, and she's talking about Lady Hideko as if she's an object at the beginning, and she's like, you know, ladies are handmaidens, dolls, and like she is you know, being encouraged to think of her in this very particular way and being encouraged to think of her as, you know, someone who is not as smart as her.

And then in the second half, we're being encouraged to think of Suki as someone who is not as smart as Lady Hideko based on how she's been conditioned to view, you know, poor women and and poor people in general. And then in the third part you realize, uh, guess

what neither was true? And it was somewhere in the middle, and and they're on the both geniuses, both geniuses, and and they're on about I really liked Suki had this fun, like Aladdin style introduction to who she was that I thought was very exciting, where I like the the mythos of Suki's life where she's like, I am the world's greatest thief, and I was like, oh my god, she's Aladdin.

This is exciting. And that was I don't know if that has anything to do with anything, but I wrote down, Suki equals Aladdin and she falls in love with her. Princess Jasmine um Hitiko teaches Suki how to read. So women helping other women, women, uplifting women, you love to see it. Although reading for Hideko was a prison for a long time. She was to read for evil. It's true, and that's why we don't read books. And that's why on the Bectel cast we don't read books because reading,

actually women reading is a prison dangerous. We've been saying this for years. At this point, it's dangerous. I mean to call back to another Disney movie. According to Guston in Beauty and the Beast, women who read it gives them ideas and then they start thinking, and that is dangerous. It's dangerous. Um, does anyone, Does anyone have anything else they would like to talk about? Ah, that's all I had. Yeah, I just wanted to add. So there's in the second

half of the movie. There's a scene we've seen a couple of times from two different points of view where Suki is like standing in as just like a model for the art, like the painting that Hideko is doing of Suki. And you see a quick reveal of her drawing of Suki, and it's the funniest thing in the world because it's so bad. It's really bad. But they it's like what Leonardo DiCaprio was actually drawing. In the Satanic he's like, um, circled dot dot smile, and then

you just get like the quickest glimpse of it. But it's not really played as a joke. But I like, I burst out laughing every time I see it because it's so funny. Because then because first you see so the council thing is that he's been training for years to be a forger, so he like he's a talented artist, Like he's a really good artist. He's really good at creating these forgeries of these books and like the art

in the books, so he knows what he's doing. And you see like his little sketches and paintings of Suki and you're like, oh damn, Like he's great, and then it pans over to Lady Jideko's drawing. It's the funniest thing in the world. It's really bad. It's um, I guess the last serious thing I wanted to talk about. And I don't know a whole lot about Park chan wooks filmography. I've seen Old Boy, but it's been several years,

so I don't remember it that well. So I don't really know much about him as a figure, and sort of like his his background and stuff like that. But one of his reasons for wanting to make this movie is that his intention was to normalize queer relationships in cinema, and you know, that's not something that most straight male

directors are concerned with. So I feel like it's a it's a classic step in the right direction kind of move where we've talked about I think a lot of instances like this where the attempt is perhaps in perfect in some ways. But the endorsement of a you know, super fame mis director, and I mean not even the internship, but like a super famous director prioritizing representation of queer people and of a lesbian relationship in their work is

like a good step in the right direction. Does it mean that everything was represented perfectly and in a way that made total sense? Usually not in those cases, because most of these hot shot directors are normally straight men, and they're you know, and there, and therefore they're fucked in terms of their worldview. But but it usually indicates, I feel like, at least historically, it usually indicates that better movies and better representation is close behind, or I hope.

So yeah, yeah, And this movie being a success and critically acclaimed hopefully paves the way for queer women in South Korea to be able to tell their own stories next, let's hope. So yeah, so the movie does pass the Bechdel test. Hell yeah, a lot of women scheming, a lot of women lying to each other in a way

that passes the Bechtel test. And as far as our nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, based on how the movie Fair is looking at it through the lens of intersectional feminism, I'm tempted to give this

like a four point to five. Just the narrative that unfolds of ultimately like women teaming up two overthrow and manipulate their oppressors the way that they had been manipulating them and coming out on top being allowed to like be together on this ferry and then hopefully after that for however much time they want to spend together, if they live, you know, the rest of their lives together.

And yeah, just like all the commentary on the patriarchy and the smashing of that patriarchy is just very satisfying and cathartic to watch. Um, the sex scenes are pretty male gazy, they're pretty fetish. She a bit gratuitous, will say, you know, it always kind of begs a question was this the right director to tell this story or you know, like is this is there the right person to be shooting these scenes, and like how much consultation was actually done,

et cetera. So that's where the movie loses some points. So I think I'll land on a four and a quarter. That might be too generous, but I just think this movie rules, So I'm gonna go easy on it, and I will give my nipples to try Kim who plays Suki Minhi Kim who plays Hiteko, the screenwriter John s Kion, and I'll give one to the aunt a tragic fate and she she deserves something. I'll give my quarter nipple to that amazing drawing. I'm gonna go I think're gonna

go there. We when we get into the fractions to get so messy. I'm gonna I'm gonna go three point seven five because ultimately this movie is directed and shot by straight guys, So I I can't Yeah, I I don't want to go too much higher than that. That said, A period piece that has a female co writer based

on the work of famous lesbian writer. It's a period piece where the lesbian couple stays together at a happy ending for them, we see the their patriarchal structure, um, at least in the terms of the two of them crumble and is very cool and very rare in terms of lesbian period pieces unfortunately. Uh So, I think that's definitely something worth praising. The movie itself fucking rocks. Like, if you haven't seen it, it's so fun. I wish I had watched it with someone else so we could

have like, like all the right moments. But it's just it's it's a really fun movie. It's very accessible if you have Amazon Prime. Hail Basos. Sorry, we can legally have to say that we love what we we love our bald king. Uh but um, yeah, I mean I think that there there are like little this The sex scenes are male gazy, and they are quite long, and there are I don't know, I mean, this is sort of inherent to the kind of story that this is. But anytime, it's like, the patriarchy is two people and

you know them. So if you can just get rid of these two people, right, you're free. Like it's it's fun in a fantasy way. But I'm always just like, Okay, but what about the rest of it. Yeah, it's not so much smashing the patriarchy. It's more smashing too much those two guys, you know, which is also very hard.

But you know whatever, I'm getting very in the weeds there. Um, I guess you know, I'll go for for a four, but I can't go higher because when it's when it's two straight guys, it's just like, okay, so this is a step, but more please. Uh So I'll go for and I'm giving them all to that go pro. So yeah, what would what would you give it? Um? I think I'd give it a solid for because you know, it's a good story. It's it's great that it exists in this world from you know, Korean stuff like that. But

just yeah, the sex scenes are so long. They're so long, and I was just like, it's too long, and we had to see multiple angles of it, and um, you know, I feel like, you know, you could have shortened it just a little bit, not like, you know, get rid of it, but shortened it. But you know, I like the story being told in that time of the occupation. Um. And you know, their love actually you know, happy ending they both get to be together. You know, the men

they die and everyone is happy who's alive? So I give it a solid for amazing. Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us on this journey. Thank you for having me. Of course. Do you have anything you'd like to plug a social media or anything like that. I do not. I do not have social media. It's probably it's better that way. Wow, our bravest guess yet, that is the healthiest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. Congratulations. Yeah, Unfortunately, we're still on social media.

You can find us at the Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram or Bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. Oh my god. You can go to our patreon ak Matreon at Patreon dot clam dot colmom slash Bechtel Cast. This this month on the on the Patreon, we're doing movies that have animals in them. I forget why, but we are. And so if you want to hear episodes about Stuart Little and Babe and Babe the Pig, it's only five dollars a month and you can hear whatever that is.

I mean, Jamie, it's famously Animal June. What are you talking about? It's yeah, it's Animal June, which we've observed for many, many years. There's all so our T public store, T public dot com, slash the Bechdel Cast where you can get all of your merchandising needs. And uh with that, I'm glad that we all stopped lying to each other and tricking each other. Let's get on a boat to Shanghai. Let's get out of here. Let's do it. Bye bye