On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have woen inum, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Jamie, I have to tell you something. Oh yeah, what what is it? You know how we will resume touring and doing live shows, you know, when it's safe. Yeah, of course. Well I told everyone that we would be doing them completely nude. Is that okay? No, no, But we have to give
them something that the other podcast hosts don't. We have to go the full Monty. I okay, fine, you know what, you know what, but only if it's shot from the back. Only if it's shot from the back, And then yes, I will do it. Yeah, we will just do our shows with our butts facing the audience. Wouldn't be the first time, it would be the first time in backtel cast history that I wonder what if we just like launched into a tour announcement. After that, we're like, so
does that sound exciting? And guess what, Chicago, We're finally coming to your city. We're coming to your city. There, you know what I in that that scene, I was like, they should bail on him, they should bail on him. There's a lot of times where I'm like, you know, I get why gas is is our is our is our he's our protagonist. We're supposed to root for him. But there were a few times where I'm like, guys, you've crossed several lines and I'm seeing everyone's points very clearly. Yeah,
he makes some choices. Certain choices were made in gazes, life, choices were made. Welcome to the Back to Happy Birthday, Caitlin, it's your birthday episode. Thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be doing this movie. This is one of
my favorites. I love the full Monty. It's it's nice to be having a birthday, something, something to look forward to, some happy I feel like it is the is the nice thing for I mean, we're we're you know then that's very regional, but but here it's you know, these birthdays are better than the last birthdays, and that's yes, great.
So yeah, this is our podcast, The Bechtel Has, by the way, and uh, this is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel Tests simply as a jumping off point, Jamie, is my birthday. I don't feel like you know saying what the Bechtel test is that you do it literally? Fine, Yes, I
can tell you that. The Bechtel test is a media matric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test for our purposes, to people of a marginalized gender with names have a two line or more discussion about something other than a man, and we request going forward that that the conversation be meaningful in the plot, that it has some sort of effect on what happens,
and it's not just a throwaway exchange. Okay, yes, So that's the test, and this is the podcast and the movie again is the full Monty, Jamie, what's your relationship with this movie? It has to do with you? It's literally I had not I'd heard of this movie quite a bit. I didn't really know what it was about. And then a couple of Christmases ago, because we keep Christmas together and uh and yeah you you you turned it on and I have we loved it. There you go. I'm so glad and it was it was fun too,
because I mean, I think we want. We like kind of half watched it on Christmas and I was like, wow, this is really heartwarming. And then we watched Paddington Too, which was all of them were heartwarming. Oh my goodness. And now it's officially the greatest movie of all time. I know it's by Citizen paing take that you turned, you know what. I think that we can now double down on never covering Citizen Game because now it's the worst movie ever made. I think that's how that works, right, Yeah,
it's a cyclical. It's a cyclical. Once you leave the top, you have actually been brought down to dead last um. But yeah, no, My my history of it is you showed it to me um over a holiday, and I really enjoyed it and it was really interesting to watch for podcast purposes. There's so much to talk about. Yes, what's your history? My mom introduced me to this movie when I was in high school. He kept renting and raving about it and saying, Caitlin, this is such a
good movie. I think you'll really like it. And I was resistant at first because I was like a thing that my mom likes, there's no way it's good or cool. And then I watched it Finally, I was probably a sophomore in high school and I saw it. I think she and I watched it together and I loved it, So my mom was right. Turns out my mom has pretty good taste in media at least, and I've loved it ever since. I watched this movie several times a year.
I've seen it probably like forty times now, but I haven't watched it through the Bechtel cast lens until until now. Uh there's yeah, there there's I think for indie movie, there's a hell of a to talk about. Yes, yes, there sure is. Should I just dive in to the recap and yeah, let's go for it. It's I mean, it's your birthday. Lead the way, Oh my gosh, I
will guide you. Okay. So we open on a seventies era news reel about Sheffield, England, which I learned was like a real, like an actual like promotional movie made about Sheffield. It's like a classic come to our industrial town. There's things going on here, we swear. It feels kind of familiar, and it's you're also like, this is all lies right, and it is indeed about how Sheffield is an industrial hot spot with an amazing nightlife and cool
things to do, and also it manufactures steal. Then we cut to twenty five years later, the steel mill has closed. We meet Gas, which is Robert Carlyle and his pal Dave Mark Addie, who are unemployed steel mill workers. Gaz's son Nathan is a boy Nivee, and I like, I, um, this is for for Americans. Uh, watching this movie for the first time, You're gonna want to have the subtitles on more so than usual because I was like there
was whole I was like, holy knife. Even with the subtitles, there's so much slang, like Yorkshire slang, that you you have to do a lot of googling. There is also some did you notice this? Um I I watched I was watching this on Amazon Prime. Fun Jeff Bezos, but I was watching it on Amazon Prime. But there were like little phrases that were it seems like they were a d ard to be Americanized, but in the subtitles
they remained English. Yeah, there was like they changed like an English credit card to like master card or like the little things like that. I was like, oh, they like, I feel like that's like TBS syndrome or something. When it was like oh. When they started syndicating this movie in America, they changed things so that it would make
sense to our puny brains, right. But then there's also large swaths of dialogue where they say something like um, there's now now, which means nothing, or oh, I know more than some chuffin woman, or um, which is a very feminist thing to say, or don't get a benny on. I never I never cracked that one. What is that? I think it just means like it's like kind of like don't get your panties in a bunch maybe, okay, okay.
I did consult my friend Jake. Shout out Jake, who lived in Sheffield for a couple of years, and I was like, I was like, Jake, tell me, because yeah, I think he went to to university their Uni. Yeah. But he was like, I honestly have not heard a lot of this slang. So I don't know if it was like nineties era slang that had like kind of gone out of style by the time you lived there, could have been really relegated to like working class slang.
There's a lot of possibilities. My favorite, my favorite turn of phrase happens really early in the movie when they're walking towards the Chippendale show and Gas is like, what is this and Nathan is like, it's them Chippendale efforts, And it's like, what an interesting way to say that. I want to start calling all performances efforts. Um. I feel like it's a more honest way of referring to most performance like like our upcoming live shows, the Bectel
cast efforts. Yeah, were gonna start calling them our live efforts. And you know if you don't like them that we didn't say you're gonna like them. We said it was gonna there was gonna be effort put in. Yeah, we were gonna try. That's all. That's all we can do. Oh goodness. Um. Yeah. So there's a lot of very specific regional slang in the movie that makes some of the dialogue a bit difficult to understand for Americans and I'm sure other groups. But it's fun, but it's it's
fun to decode. Yes indeed. Okay, So where were we, um, Gaz, Dave and Nathan are all in this steel mill trying to steal an old girder or like an I I what do we like? An ib my guess that would have was what I would know that as um, yeah, that sounds about right, yeah, so that they can like sell it for scrap metal because they're unemployed and they have very little money. Right on the way back home, they pass a working men's club basically like a venue
a strip club where these Chippendale efforts are happening. So it's like it's like ladies night at the men's club essentially right right, because it's for women only, and Dave's his wife, Jean is there. Gas and Nathan sneak into the club. Jean and her friends come into the restroom. They overhear Jean talking about how like Dave has given up on their relationship, and then someone peas on a wall deciding very exciting. Then we see Gas and Dave
at job club, which is like an unemployment office. Um, they're trying to get jobs. Their former boss Gerald that's Tom Wilkinson is there and they're talking about the strip club and they're making remarks about sort of like how they feel obsolete as men, but also like oh, there were so many women there and they were paying money to see men dance around. Then Gas gets noticed that he's going to lose joint custody of Nathan if he doesn't pay child support, which he can't afford to do.
This is a moment that in a in a very different way. But this specific character of Barry, who's like the new dad in town, he reminds me so much of Neil from the Santa Claus franchise. I was like, Oh, the new dad in town. I know this character. It's a very like it's I mean, it's a it's a stock character that's existed for a long time, like so and so's new significant other and they're like villainized in
a way that is probably not fair. Uh, but I feel like in the nineties it was such a spec civic vibe that it was like and also he's got a lot of hair, and he's wearing a sweater like it was a really specific aesthetic of like, if you are the new dad, you are wearing like a knit sweater, a cable knit sweater. This was also carry you Else's character in Liar Liar, a big movie of my childhood. I have never They're like, I just have never seen it.
Jim Carrey and Adam Sandler. Cannon is like completely eluded me as a youth, probably for the best I think I'm better off for it. But but there are you know, some some basic uh you know, party talk literacy that I just can't I can't keep up is liar, liar? Good? Um, I have not seen it since I was probably twelve, so all right, but I don't imagine it holds up very well. Reasonable, But I loved it when I was twelve. Oh what if everything we love when we were twelve?
Howld up? You know I'd still be watching rent it, you know. Anyways, Anyways, so Gaz argues with his ex wife Mandy about this soul custody situation, and then he gets the idea to put on a strip show as a way of earning money to pay child support, which he pitches to Dave, who is like, um no, this
doesn't sound like a good idea. Then they come upon Lumper, a security guard at the steel mill who they rescue from a suicide attempt, and they befriend him and they all start hanging out and they rope him into this strip show. That scene is very I mean, we'll talk
about it, but that scene is very sweet. Where he's where they're like where, it's it's such a I don't know, it's it's fun watching, like the the way that bonding happens in this movie of like where they're all kind of yelling at each other still, but they're trying to be friends to each other. It's very sweet where they're like, where are your mates now? And he's like, oh, okay, like why are we yelling? But you know, I appreciate the sentiment. Yeah, And then Gas is still on about
this strip show. He can't let it go, and Dave is kind of warming up to the idea. Nathan is very embarrassed by his dad. Well, Nathan just shouldn't be around whatever is going on here. That's like my main thing with Gas, like the well talk in general, I don't think that gazes. Ex wife Mandy is demonized really, which is good because I don't really I very much see where she's coming from. Um, it seems like her son is repeatedly being put in pretty unsafe, irresponsible situations.
You're not wrong, Yeah, yeah, So he's there, He, like guys, is trying to do a strip tease just to like see how it goes. He's terrible at it, it's embarrassed, he runs away. Yes, It's so it's very funny, and they realize that they can't really dance and they don't know what they're doing. So they approach their old boss, Gerald, who does like ballroom dance, and they asked him to
join their group. Gerald's whole thing is that he hasn't told his wife that he's lost his job because he's too proud um and he eventually agrees to join the group. Then they hold auditions to add a couple more men to their troop. They recruit Horse who's got some good dance moves, and guy who has a large penis, and that's what he has to contribute to the group. What's
the phrase that's like the lunchbox has landed. I'm like, that's such a fun line of dialogue where I'm like, out of context of like, this could mean anything, but in context, I'm like, I know exactly what he's talking about. Do you remember on my Space when you could have just like a little like tagline in your profile. That was my tagline for the entire time I had my Space, The lunchbox has landed. Oh my god, that is on it? That is that holds up. I feel like mine were
just like bright eyes lyrics. Mine were pretty embarrassing and we're like I wish I could write a perfect son it like embarrassing. Oh goodness, Okay. They then steal a copy of Flashdance and watch it for inspiration. We gotta cover Flashdance on the podcast at some point. By the way, there's so many levels of things I want to talk about with Flash Dance because it's directed by the same guy who directed Lolita. There's it's an Adrianne. Holy sh it.
I did not know that it was his first big movie. How wild? How did he? I mean, I haven't watched it in a couple of years, but I feel like Flashdance is like cool with some feminist themes, and then all of a sudden Lolita, like, how did things go so wrong? Well, I I I could connect the dots there. I think I think it's because once he did um Fatal Attraction, he was like, oh, I'm just never it. He made so much money, um, you know, making women look um horrible that I think he's like, let's just
roll with this. That's my theory. But also I just don't I think he's just kind of mediocre. But Flashdance itself, I haven't seen it in like ten years, but I really liked watching it. I just I associate that movie with sweating because you just it makes you want to get up dance. It's true anyway, so we'll cover it someday. In the meantime, they're watching flash Dance. They start putting together a choreographed routine, which they're all pretty bad at.
Then there's like this training montage. Then they come upon a couple of women who they know, and they're like, well, what do you guys have to offer that these real chippendale dancers can't? And Gas is like, well, this lot will go all the way the full monty and we're like, that's the name of the movie. No, And then they say it back and forth three different times, and I'm like, it's really satisfying. But also, Gas, you gotta check in
with your friends. It's true, yeah, Gas problematic. But now they have no choice but to do full nudity because it has been announced to those two women who they're like, well, there's such gossips that they'll tell everyone. Also, while the this is all happening, um, we learned that most of the men have something that they're like insecure about or dealing with in their personal lives. For example, Dave is having body image issues, which is leading to like a
sexual slump with Gene. He's not sure how to talk about it with her. She doesn't know how to bring it up with him. It's one of those things. Um Horse is insecure about the size of his penis. Gerald gets unexpected erections and he's worried that it'll happen when he's on stage during the show. Then they do a dress rehearsal in the old steel mill in front of horses family, which this is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. It's so funny. The reaction shots are
truly priceless. Yeah, Dave is not there because he's having second thoughts. He's gotten a job as a security guard at as Does, a same store he shoplifted right Yes. During the dress rehearsal, they get caught by the Like Factory security guard and they get arrested. Because of this, Gas can no longer see his son until he like has a meeting with Like Social Services. Also, Guy and Lamper had like fled the scene when the security guard shows up. They run off to Lamper's house where they
have a little moment with each other. I forgot about that why. I don't know if I remember that for my first feeling, and I was like, oh wow, yeah cute. Then Gerald's wife finds out that he has been lying about being unemployed this whole time, and she kicks him out of the house. Lamper's mom passes away. Dave's wife thinks that he's cheating on her because she finds his like stripper thong and stuff. Um, so this is what
we would call the low point. But Dave is like, no, I'm a stripper, but I'm not going to go through with it because no one would want to see me. And she's like, well, you should do it because I would watch you. So now that's seen made me cry. It's really they love each other, but they don't know how to communicate. And then it's time for the big show.
The house is packed, They've sold hundreds of tickets. Oh my gosh, it looks not on, like they have a venue that is not on like venues that we do where you're like it just it's a bar, but large, it's it's it may be nostalgic for rooms full of people I know, I know. And then Dave shows up because he has decided to do the show after all. Gas has some last minute second thoughts because there are men in the audience. But then Nathan is like, come on, Dad,
go strip. Nathan's like, I gave you my only money, you have to do it, and Gas is like, oh yeah right. So he goes out there, they do the show, they strip, they go the full Monty and then that's the end of the movie freeze frame, and it's, uh, what a treat, and that's the movie. Shall we take a break. Let's take a break and we'll be right back. And we're back, Yes, we are. Um. So, I think one of the things that I have always been like drawn to and attached to with this movie and this
is something like that. I one of the reasons, like I wanted to start this podcast from the jump was that I was noticing that so many of my favorite movies were very like male centered and had male protagonists, and women were not prominent characters in a lot of the movies that I liked, because also that's most of what's available. But I I still tend to like gravitate towards stories about men that are like that, like, are
not about toxic men, I guess or not. I mean, let's I'll throw one out there Paddington, Paddington's exactly famously unproblematic um star of the best movie ever made officially each ship orson Welles, which Citizen Kane very toxic man. Wait are you suggesting Randolph Hurst was a toxic person? I mean, we will never will never have this discussion because we're never gonna cover We're never going to cover
this movie. But yes, so I appreciate stories about men that are about men who are like not using with toxic masculinity. And this is one of the things that drew me to this movie, where I mean, there are arguments to be made that like Guys does some like
he does make some questionable choices. But what I always found so like interesting and compelling about this movie is that one of the major themes that gets explored is like the movie's exploration of toxic standards of masculinity and how those standards really affect men in negative ways, whether they are like beauty standards or the like expectation that men are supposed to be providers um or whatever it is, and how things that we tend to assume only affect women,
like beauty standards, that is not the case. Like all these men are are affected by like Western standards of beauty. So that's like kind of one of the big things for me with this movie. I totally agree. I mean I think that, and like what what especially I what I like especially about this movie and we will, you know, go through all the stuff that didn't age as well.
But the my favorite thing in the entire world is when which I think this movie does so like effortlessly for the most part, is like addresses like important issues, but not in a way that is like tragedy porn or bashing you over the head with it. Like it's it's both like presented honestly and realistically, and it's also just like funny and it I feel like that, I don't know, like it's just like the kinds of movies
that I prefer to watch. And also I think that it's like they were able to access to to wide audience by making that choice here, where like I had no idea how small this movie was versus how successful it was. It like it was on a three point five million dollar budget and it made two hundred fifty eight million dollars in it's like absurd how successful it was.
And I feel like because it's because of what you're describing of like the you know, not many movies that have and you know, there's a ba jillion movies that have a completely sis male cast um in terms of central characters, but almost none of them examine the pressures of masculinity. And I very much feel like we've talked about this before, like part of being uh feminist is examining masculinity and the effects that it has on on
the people it's thrust upon. And also it's it focuses on the working class, which is like yet another a layer that you don't get very much, especially in comedy that is like centered around the working class. It's like, you know, so often the working class is being punched
down at. They might appear in comedies as a punchline, as a joke, but this is just like it's it's just very matter of factly, like we're in a working class community that it has been you know, like devastated in a way that many industrial towns have been um particularly in this Like I did a little little history dive. I was like, oh, this is like, you know, but that happens virtually everywhere, Like everyone knows of a place where this I don't know my hometown used to be
shoe city. If you look at it used to be shoe city and guess what, no more shoes Now there's there's a loan there's a loan shoe company left in Brockton. If you want to, uh, you know, go online too. I think it's called foot Joy. Get some shoes from foot Joy. It's the last. But there used to be five trillions to factories in Brocton. But anyways, this is a very common thing in you know, in working class neighborhoods, and but you so rarely see working class people centered
in movies. And it's like watching specifically working class men struggle with the pressures of masculinity on like all these different levels. It's it's so unique, and it's I don't know, like there's places where I'm like, oh, I wish they had gone further. I wish that this character had more of a complete arc. But I feel like even now it's like that I can't really there's there's not many
movies that do this. I feel like it's there. There is like a lot of good examination of like working class issues in TV, but I don't think as much in in movies. Yeah, I think that is really cool and like you said it, um, these men are dealing with these pressures of toxic masculinity and acting in ways in some cases that were like mmmmm, I wish you wouldn't use that homophobic slur and I wish you wouldn't like cat call women who are like walking down the
street and reading them there for instance. Yeah, so you know, they're their products of their environment, certainly. But yeah, I think the movie does, especially for like a movie in the nineties, does like a pretty good job of exploring those standards and those pressures without like you said, being very preachy and like bashing you over the head with it. It just sort of like it presents the thing. Could there have been more commentary maybe, but like any any
movie could go further. But but it tackles a lot but doesn't necessarily go super far with any of it. But it's also not like, you know, it's mostly there to be a romp, which I appreciate it like it's a romp, But they touches on a number of issues surrounding toxic masculinity with that with like kind of so seamlessly.
It's like, yeah, I'll take it. I also really appreciate it for in the casting of this movie that they cast characteristic, They cast like people who look like people and not like rigid because I feel like that, you know, even sometimes when we do get movies about about everyday people, they still look like movie stars who have the highest like you know, it's without body shaming movie stars, I guess, like you know, it's clear when you have the money
to look like a movie star versus not, right, And I just I always appreciate when like it's a cast of of working class everyday people and it isn't like Noah' sentenao as like you know what I mean, right, It's like, oh, the movie is telling us that this is a working class person, but this actor clearly has a personal trainer that they spend like an hour or more a day with. They clearly spend like I don't know, fifty dollars a day on smoothies and like whatever green drinks that French people.
This is a class war issue, what is? It's just like and we're so we're so conditioned to just boop through that cognitive dissonance, just like when you watch like a whatever, like a teen soap, you're like, oh, yeah, you know, teenagers are actually twenty eight years old, Like
it's just a dissonant thing that exists in culture. But but when it actually isn't like that, and you get a cast of like people who look like people, you know, it's like it's it's like we talked about this in eighth grade, which is this is maybe way off topic, but just like how startling it is when you see uh, teenager playing and looking like a teenager because you're so
used to seeing lady year old as teenagers. Yeah, I feel like at thirty five, which I will be in a few days on my birthday, I will just be aging out of being able to play a teenager. Caitlyn, I feel like you could very much still get cast as like she's like she's a senior and I'm so scared of her. Thank you so much. Yeah, of course, I guess should we get into like individual characters and sort of like because each character has like a pretty
specific like subplot that they are something that they're dealing with. Um, shall we start with our protagonist, Gas? Let's do it? Oh Gas, we need to talk so I mean as far as like positives, because there are there are some there are Yeah, I really appreciate that you have an example of a man who like loves being a dad. He loves his son more than anything in the world.
He will go to great lengths he wants. I think he's cool so bad, Yes, And I feel like that's not a super common thing in media to see for like a blue color, working classman who like loves being a dad and who's who is like very attentive to his son and who very openly shows affection towards his son. That doesn't mean that he also doesn't sometimes put his son in situations that are inappropriate, which he definitely does
a lot. Yeah, but I like, I'm always just kind of struck with um when I when I watched like the relationship between Gas and Nathan, And while ultimately is this a movie about fathers and sons? It always is, Yes, it always is, But I like, don't even mind because I'm just like it works. Yeah, it's it feels earned. Despite his questionable parenting choices that he makes sometimes, I
still really love that representation of fatherhood. I agree, Yeah, it's it's it's so tricky because it's like, you know, it's part of it is like, well, if Gas was being a completely responsible parent. The movie probably wouldn't even happen the way that yes, because you wouldn't bring your underage child to uh like like where you're you're going to be completely naked, which is like that feels intuitive.
Um that said, I mean it's and this isn't too excused the behavior, but I do think it's like, especially in movies where there are parents, I feel like sometimes kids are written not of the plot when it doesn't serve the plot. But it is like, you know that that's a very normal, especially because we know the financial circumstance that that Gas is in that it would make
I mean, it's like can he afford childcare? Of course, not like he's going to have to have Nath with him wherever he is, And that is like, I don't know. One of one of the plot points with with Guys that really hit from me is is the custody issue. And I kind of I appreciated that the custody issue, at least the way I was watching it. And I'm always like, if I had goggles on, I don't know, I don't know, you know, but I felt like very often, Um, and again I guess to go back to the Santa clause.
Of course, mothers seeking custody of their children are often portrayed as being unreasonable, as being shrill, as being you know, like unfair essentially, as like takeing something. But the way that this custody situation is presented, I thought was like pretty thought full on both ends, where like, I don't know,
how did you. I didn't feel like Mandy was really demonized, and I understood her frustration and I understood her concern like for sure, and then you also see completely why like Gas is so frustrated with the situation, and it is it's it is like they're being presented with this impossible situation by poverty, and it just it and and it's presented very like a matter of fact, and I mean it makes me sad because it's just like something that happens um in in poor families where it's like, yeah,
I understand why, um why Mandy is like this is not a you know, responsible way for my son to be spending this time. And then you also were like, well, Gas can't afford to do much else at this time, and does that mean that he should have his son
taken away from him? And you know, just all this ship that they're like really complicated issues that could have been really you know, melo dramatically harped upon, that are presented in a way that I felt was like empathetic and also not I don't know, I don't know, maybe it was like too lighthearted, but I thought it was
pretty well done. And also just like and this is like a I guess a through line of this movie of like all the all the all the men in the full Monty group is that the name of their group is it called the full Monty They I don't think they gave themselves. Ah no, it's hot metal when they're um. When they put up the posters advertising their show, they call themselves hot metal. I'm going to get you
a poster like that for your house. Hot metal. Um. But but the way that like and this is and and you know, everyone who has read you know, leftist theory is going to be like I'm presenting this in the most goofy, simplistic way possible, but basically, like all these men are dealing with the failure of industry and the failure of social safety net and the like, these structural failures and because of the effect that toxic masculinity
has on them. They're interpreting it as personal failures. And I think that this affects like almost every man in this group, and you see it affect them in different ways.
But it is like it's so sad and frustrating to see for guys that he he is both really doing everything he can to like get through and be able to keep custody of his son and be able to support himself financially, but he's being put in this impossible situation and also because of all the messaging that you know, everybody gets, is made to feel like he is like failed as a provid eider as well. And so it's it's just I don't know, Yeah, it's so it's so complicated,
but it's not presented like that. I just think it's really cool. I don't know. Yeah, I will say that when I watched this movie when I was younger, like when I was a teenager, I feel like I did maybe think that his ex wife Mandy was kind of presented sort of as like your kind of typical like mother Shrew character, especially because in every scene she's in, she and Gas are arguing over Nathan, but rewatching it
like through this lens. I fully like, I saw where she was coming from, and I was like, well, of course she's constantly arguing with him. It's because he's, like again,
making questionable parental decisions. He's also, I would argue that he's not necessarily doing everything he can to like no, okay, child's moore, because he's also she offers him a job, there are jobs available, but there he like kind of I think he might see him like certain work to be below him because he's also I know, I don't want this job. No, I'm not going to be a security guy like he. So he's refusing opportunities for work, which I found should be frustrating. Yeah, I mean I agree.
I also felt like he didn't want to work under her because he has a lot of I mean, I feel like the main thing with Gas for me is is the the bringing your kids places your kids shouldn't be and misogyny. Um are are two and not the only things, but like two big things where like, clearly this guy has some issues with women, and it seems
like he does not want it. Seems like he is and I guess, yeah, it's like I'm watching it with my goggles on where I'm like, yeah, like it seems like he doesn't want to work beneath man D and that like that to him is like I would rather like hatch a scheme than work beneath someone. But it's also like it's I don't know, it's it's such a tricky area where it's like, you know, should he be forced to take a job that he doesn't want to take? Like that doesn't seem reasonable either, But he's just like
everyone's being put in an impossible situation. But yeah, I definitely interpreted the like her. I'm also like two fifty an hour even like what it was pounds? It was pounds, but yeah, like what would that have converted to in
late nineties money? Yeah, And it's like, yeah, I mean a lot of people who grew up in working class circumstances, like their parents to support them, took jobs that they did not were not passionate about, and certainly felt were below their skill set and below what they wanted to do. And sometimes, you know, I don't know, we're not parents
that said I did. I Yeah, I was also frustrated by him, you know, scheme over Garen, Like it's it's he's he's a self sabotager, like he's a major self sabotager, and that it's like, you know, if if this movie took place in the real world and nobody came to that show, he would simply lose custody of his son, like it would blow up in his face royally, I
don't know. And then I mean, like you mentioned, he does pretty clearly have some issues with misogyny that I like to think that he starts to work through after
this show and that he grotes as a person. But there's like that whole scene when they're at the job club and he's talking about how, oh, like men are obsolete, and I feel like that's like a reflection of this idea that as soon as women, if there's any kind of like women's liberation, men interpret that is like, well, well, if if women are are free and have rights and can have jobs and stuff, then men won't even need to exist, and they feel like very threat from me. Yeah,
it is so like boomer mentality. Yeah. Yeah, So that's like very clearly what guys is talking about in this scene to me where he's like, well, gee whiz. And then there's also like funny slash bizarre thing where they're like talking about that woman who they saw peeing while she was standing up and they were like how how could that even happen? And then some random guys like genetic mutations, they're turning into us, and then they're like, yeah,
we're going extinct. We're only going to be in like a zoo. Again. It's like that sort of thing where I'm just like I'm putting my I'm trying to put on goggles and I just don't have access to them. I'm like, how was what was this joke supposed to
be about when it came out? Because maybe it's like, but I thought that that scene was like kind it was fun in that I felt like and again maybe I'm giving them moving more credit than it deserves, like that it was they were supposed to look kind of desperate and ridiculous in the way that they were talking about women, where it was like, I don't know, like it's just it's not all of but you know, a lot of misogyny is like men being insecure about themselves
and then weaponizing it against someone that they think is an easy target. And like the way that they talk about women in terms of like women who are working while they're not. It's like, well, what a huge insult. And it's like we we just need to think a little bigger, guys, we need to think a little bigger. It's not there, it's not them. Um yeah, um, why don't we take a quick break and then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. Is there
anything else we wanna say regarding Gas? Um? I guess well, I think guys, He's just it's for our protagonist. He I feel like embodies a lot of toxic mail, Like I feel like more so than any other character really except for maybe Gerald, But like Gas has a lot like he has the misogyny. He makes homophobic comments about the Chippendales at first, he you know, fat shames Dave at times, like he he is extremely rigid in binary in the way that he thinks, which is like we
can pretty reasonably say product of his environment. But also it's like there are men in this same environment that seemed to have more open lines and are kind of a more productive path. So Gaz isn't my favorite, but um, I I respect his journey. I'm glad he didn't lose custody of his son. Also, I what do you think
about Gas taking money from Nath. I feel like that's another complicated thing where it's like it has to happen plot wise, but like they're had, like especially when he could have just worked for Mandy for a couple of days and gotten the same amount of money over taking it from his son's savings account. I don't know. I like especially that young like, I don't know. It's like the way money loves within working class families is definitely complicated.
But I'm like, taking your whatever, ten year old only money, Gas, really really I don't like it. He's perhaps also too quick to be like, okay, take your money. He doesn't push one, but yeah, what I'll say there is that I hope he pays it back immediately after doing this show with like interest. I feel like he will to, like he loves he loves Naith, right, But I'm like, God, you're putting Nathan between a rock and a hard place here, gash my god. I also think that Nathan will help
to rid Gas of some of his misogyny. And I say this because there's a scene in the very beginning where Gus sees a woman rates her on like a one to ten scale. Says a bunch of really sexist stuff, like he's like, well she's a night maybe even a nine. You never can tell until you see their tids um, and we're like gas um. And while he's saying this, Nathan's like dad, like in a very like testy way.
And I hope that as Nathan gets older, he sits his dad down and says, Dad, you shouldn't be objectifying women like that. You should not be valuing a woman based on how attractive you perceive her to be, et cetera. So I agree, Yeah, I thought that, like nath being embarrassed by his dad's misogyny hopefully means that down down the road. Also, I'm like, is Nathan their manager now? Like what happens now? I don't know. He seems to be kind of I mean he's clearly he's an investor,
that much is for sure. He's an early investor in the group. Who knows he's he's wearing many hats. Yeah, he's you know, a complex, a complex character. Shout out to Nathan. You know what a what a sweetheart, what a sweet kid and a pretty good child actor, pretty good. Yeah.
His name is William Snape, which I was like, huh that it sounds like a fake name, but right, because then you're and you're like, oh wait, I guess Harry Potter that name isn't a fake name, which is what I always thought when I it's like it sounds like snake, So turn out it's a real last name. Well, you know, water under the bridge at this point, Um, where where
shall we? Where shall we go from here? What about Dave? Dave? Okay, Yes, I I Dave's journey is unique, and I feel like, not just unique in this group, but unique for talking about masculinity and body standards at all. Yes, So the thing that he is predominantly dealing with in this movie is that he feels a lot of shame about being fat, probably because his peers constantly fat shame him. Yeah, and
he's he so mentions. I thought it was like a useful context that is like this is something that has been his whole life, Like he's been made fun of for this and it and and it's like clearly just like his body type because he's like, I haven't changed anything, It's just who I am. But like people will not leave him alone about it. Yeah, and then it's at least suggested in the movie that the shame he is feeling is manifesting as like this sexual dry spell with
his wife because he's experiencing impotency issues. He's uh seems to be unable to get an erection, uh, and it's affecting his sex life with his wife. The fact that this is even like talked about at all in a movie in the nineties is like kind of groundbreaking. But yeah, and I felt as though that was all dealt with pretty responsibly. Yeah. Yeah, and I think like in making it clear that all of this is happening in response to you know, just how others are perceiving his body.
And it's like that moment at the end with his his wife, um, but where it's like I don't know,
I don't know. I mean, there's so so much about that scene that I thought was really sweet and well thought out of just you know, she she loves him, and she's attracted to him, and she loves his body, and just hearing that sometimes is like, I don't know, it's like I feel like, and this is a generalization, but a lot of men, straight men particularly don't always know how to like ask for what they need or there's like there's on top of like shame attached to
your body, which you know affects people of all genders, Like there is like this I don't know if like there there's this kind of general like you can't admit weakness, you know, you can't discuss shame with your partner when it's so clearly like it's one conversation that like totally sets him free and like clearly, I mean, it doesn't solve the problem right away, but it's it's just so so simple and so nice and but but it you totally understand why he's going through this journey the way
he is, because it's just like shame on top of shame, on top of shame on top of shame, and it's all connected to this like toxicity around men and and around the way that people like police each other's bodies totally.
There are a couple of scenes in the movie where they're hanging out at Gerald's house, and one of them, Dave is kind of expressing his insecurity about like not wanting to show his naked body in front of a bunch of people, and Gerald kind of dismisses him and says fat David is a feminist issue, and he's like, what's that supposed to mean when it's at home? And yeah, so like even when he does try to open up
and talk about it, he's like it's being dismissed. And because like Gerald holds this toxic viewpoint of like, well, being fat is something that's like only women are concerned about, or only women should be concerned about, and like this it should you know, it shouldn't affect you, but obviously, like body and beauty standards affect everyone who has a body, which is everyone. So yeah, so he's not being taken seriously.
And then there's a later scene where they're looking at like a porn magazine and um Lumper is like, oh, well her tits are too big, and Dave's like, well, I hope they're not going to be looking at us like that. I hope the women in the audience are more understanding comes through and then they're like, well why would why would they be judging our bodies? And he's
just like, well, you know, why not. He's just commented on her breast siyes and lumbers, like well it's different where blokes, but well I guess I mean, yes, the standards of beauty do tend to be a bit harsher and more rigid for women, but men and people of all genders are subjected to specific and often rigid beauty standards. Yeah. I thought that that story, you know, it played out
pretty well. And it's like and and the fact that it's like having that conversation with his where his wife, um, but having that conversation with her, like and communicating and acknowledging where you feel vulnerable, which again not what straight men are generally known for. Um is able to like kind of unlock this confidence in himself and an acceptance and like enjoying being in his own skin. It's so simple and so nice, and I just, yeah, I I
really enjoyed it. And there's also there's a quote I want to pull from friend of the cast, Jenna Schmiding, who gave an interview recently that I don't know it just timed out well. Watched this movie last night, this interview came out this morning. Uh so, Janna says, quote, Oh sorry, let me actually lead in with the quote. Uh In. In Schmiding's estimation, we can only really celebrate body positivity when quote we create equity and access for
fat people in all aspects of our lives. The term body positivity, Yes, it is about celebrating our existence and celebrating our bodies. But it's nearly impossible to do that when every system and structure around us is built and created to exclude fat people and to essentially vilify and
oppress fat individuals and fatness as a concept. We need to get to a place where fatness is normalized widely and people have access to medical care and all of the same social norms that non fat people have access to, unquote, which is you know, I don't think that this movie goes all the way, but I think that it in terms of just even having that discussion in in a kind of I mean, I I feel like part of this movie's strength is that everyone in this group is
kind of clueless, and they're all kind of like coming to most of these issues with like I don't know, and like learning from each other through trial and error, and it's just like, I don't know. It's it's cool. It's as as uncomfortable as it is at times, it's
cool to watch them work through it. Yeah, because like, yeah, it wouldn't be super realistic if all of these men in were like super woke and like I knew all the stuff and just like we're it wouldn't make sense in one like it's like I do, I do like and I hope that that kind of I would like to see. I guess more of that of like people learning on the screen and like shedding the ship mentality and not coming in a fully formed you know, being,
because like no one does. And yeah, it's it's just like super interesting because it's like, yeah, I mean, guys in that group are fucking up in terms of like they're dismissing Dave's concerns. They're telling him it's not a thing, and then they realize over time that oh, it very much is a thing, and it's affecting my friend who
I love. Yeah, Dave does not display as much misogyny as Gas does, But there is one part of the movie when they're watching Flash Dance and Dave is commenting on the main characters welding abilities, so and they're like you don't know how to well, yeah, guys, is like, what the funk do you know about welding? And Dave says, I know more than some chuffing woman, which chuffing I'm I'm guessing is like fucking, I don't like, I don't, goddamn,
I don't. Yeah, correct as if we're wrong. Yeah, yeah, you know, so he doesn't think that women can weld really really, what Dave is more guilty of is letting things slide when other men around him say fucked up stuff, because it's like, I mean, Nathan is doing more to push up against gazes casual misogyny than Davis, and Nathan's
like ten, uh so that's not great. Yeah, because it's like any time like I feel like and you see this like I don't know, like I've I've seen this interaction where it's like someone says something really casually fucked up and then the other persons like, oh, come on, like and then they just never talk about it. That is Dave. That that seems like Dave's m O is like, well, I'm not going to say it myself, but I'm never going to point out when someone's being you know, bigoted, unfair,
misogynist at yea, yeah, yeah, shall we talk about Gerald? Yeah, let's talk about Gerald. So his situation is that he is ashamed at having lost his job. He cannot be the provider anymore. He is unable to admit this to his wife because of all the shame he feels um which again goes back to that kind of toxic standard of masculine city where men are expected to be the providers and if they can't do that, then the other a failure, they don't know what they're worth is and
stuff like that. So, um, yeah, I thought that was a very interesting thing to explore. There are there's like at least one scene where even Gazz is like, why can't you just tell your wife? And Gerald's like, well, it's been six months now, Like how can I tell her now? I've let it go on for way too long and and part of it is like, also, this just not being able to be like open and forthcoming to the romantic partner, and it's it's so like and it's it seems to be like in Dave and Gerald's case,
wives that they love very much. It makes me sad. And what I really loved is his wife's response when she does find out and I don't I feel like you do learn her name, but I he mentioned it a few times, but it's the dialogue in this movie was so tough for me. And she does have a name, I don't remember what it was off the top of my head. Linda I think is her name? That yes, Okay. So she finds out because people come into her home
and start repossessing things. And Gerald comes home while this is happening, and she's like, how long has this been going on? He's like about six months. And she's like, all right, well, you know, I can deal with losing the sun bed, the car, whatever, like material possessions. She lists off. She's like, I can even deal with the shame of everyone watching this, but six months and you
couldn't even tell me your wife. So she's not upset about which I think is like a pretty major subversion for like the wife character of just like being upset about like losing these like luxury items and stuff like that.
She's like, I don't even care about that. I only care that you you weren't honest with me, and you weren't open with me, and you didn't tell me that this is something that was happening, especially because like she's sort of set up to seem kind of like materialistic because she's like, let's go, like, let's spend all this money. I want to go on like a ski trip and stuff like that. But then she's like, I don't actually care about that. I just wanted you to be honest
with me. I Yeah, I really liked that too, because I honestly was like the way that they were setting her up where they were like, you know, she's kind of this. I mean, they're you know, their vibe is
like upper middle class assholes. But yeah, it's like that that is a cool subversion where it's it's and and again it's I feel like, you know, in the same way that I'm like, I totally understand why Mandy is so frustrated with Gas, you can also see why Linda is so hurt by this because and also and and and again where both sides of this conflict like they're just both prisoners to this like his toxic masculinity that he's been taking in his whole life, and it's affecting
everyone so negatively. Oh it makes me and and and it's hard to not feel for Gerald in a way to where it's like, yeah, you're being a absolute fool about how you're dealing with this. Talk to bottom, talk to your wife. But like that concept of yeah, just being defined by your ability to provide and and not being able to provide connected to just like complete emasculation in a way that I'm just I mean, like every movie, I'm like, you know, therapy, therapy would fix, would fix
a lot of these issues. Um, another movie where all of these characters need to be in therapy, including ethan Um. Yes, uh, but yeah, I liked that's right. And also just like them, you know, Gerald being like, well, you know, she's used to a standard of living and I don't want to ask her to have to compromise, which I don't know.
That was just giving me like major O eight recession vibes. Um, you know, like he would rather go into debt than admit that his financial status has changed, Like he would rather sever the most important relationship in his life than admit that, you know, a situation out of his control is affecting his family. And it's like, come on, man, but you also understand where it all comes from, right,
It's not happening in a vacuum. Gerald. It also makes you wonder, how does Linda not know that the factory closed down six months ago? Like wouldn't that have been like in the newspaper, wouldn't people be talking about it that I had that question also, but I'm like, maybe he was like just like, oh, I'm working somewhere else dot dot dot think he got a different job. I know.
I was just like, I wish that had been clarified because otherwise it just makes her seem like completely oblivious because I'm like, well, where where were you for the last six months, Linda. Um. The other thing with Gerald is that we learn a bit later on in the movie that he's experiencing a situation where he gets unexpected erections. I don't know what the medical term for this is, I can't help. And this is something that he like
confides in to Dave. But because Dave he's experiencing impotency, Yeah, they're not seeing eye to eye on it. He's like, I, you're talking to the wrong man, right, Um. So he also he kind of dismisses Gerald after Gerald had dismissed Dave for like being insecure about his weight, and then
the other members of the group. I guess he confides in them or they find out about it in some way and they're like it's this thing where they're like trying to be supportive because they're like, oh, well, what if like think about boring things and then you like
won't get an erection. But then they also tease him about it, and I don't know how to feel about that because I was like, oh, well, they shouldn't be teasing him, but this is how I don't know, Like I mean, that's like, that's another through line that this movie touches on, I think, with four different characters where it's like some sort of self definition by if not your penis's size, what your penis is doing in its spare time, its leisure hours, etcetera. Um, and and it honestly,
like I know that it's imperfectly done. I don't feel qualified to get even like incredibly specific with how um, but but I do. Yeah, it's I kind of wonder I for uh, for our listeners that have some insight here.
I guess it's like I I viewed the way that not in all situations, but in some situations, it's like these men can only communicate by like sort of making a joke out of everything, and like they clearly it's really hard for them to have a straight discussion because as we see from how all their relationships are, they cannot communicate with anybody until it's like an absolute breaking point, like they their life has to be almost destroyed before they'll communicate, And so I sort of view that as
like an extension of that of like they're teasing each other instead of talking about it, but through easy each other, they're trying to talk about it, but it's not really like it's a very imperfect approach, I don't know, being real, real straight guys some of them. And then that might bring us to Lamper and or guy. So Lumper is I think like the third character to join the group. He's the one who they stop like an active suicide
attempt um. The aftermath of that is again like a very like they're joking with him about the like the other ways that he could have attempted suicide, yeah, which is which is like, I don't know, I don't hate the way it's written that they trying to talk him down. They also clearly have no idea how to talk about this. Yeah, And then it it ends with him saying like, well, I don't have any friends, and they're like, well, how
could you tell us that we're not your friends? You know, we just saved your life, and he's like really that little smile where he's like oh, oh, I know it's it's it's very sweet. It's very sweet. Yeah. And then and then a little bit later, I don't know if you caught this, but Gas is saying, he's like, yeah, I roped him into the group because this could be good therapy for him. Yes, yes, that was very sweet.
And it's like, well, you know, real therapy would be good therapy for him, but um, if that's not available. But we also it's like it it were, you know, in a in a very low income area, it's very likely that that would not be made available on top of the stigma. Although they're in England, so maybe they do have more access to things. I don't really know. I don't really know. English listeners help us out here. Yeah, and then for long or it's revealed that he is
gay or queer. He's attracted to men, which guy also is. Because they have that moment when they're like running away from the dress rehearsal and they are like very close and they're face to face and they have their vibing.
You're like, let's have three movies of this, right. The only other thing, the only other part of this very minimal storyline is a few scenes later when Lamper's mother has passed away and they're at her funeral, and we see a very tiny glimpse of the two of them holding hands, which then Gas and Dave notice and comment on, and it's, you know, they're just kind of surprised and
it was unexpected for them. And then Dave says a very like Northern England expression, there's not as queer as folk, and I was like, which doesn't specifically is not specifically about queer people. It's just means like, there's nothing as strange as people. But then he like kind of realizes the double on tenda of what he said, and then they start laughing. They're cracking up at the funeral. At the funeral, right, So I guess my main thing here is that I just really would have liked to see
more of this storyline. It gets so breezed past, and we don't really learn anything about them as a couple except for just the very those two tiny little glimpses.
It's freustra and it's so it's so seven and unfortunately kind of like best case scenario where the fact that they are interested in each other and that they like seemed to be at the beginning of our relation sationship um is presented in a very you know, pretty matter of fact way, but it's so brief, and it's like, you know that if this were hederal relationship, that it would all of a sudden take over the entire plot in the way that had hedteral relationships that you barely
know anything about consume the plot entirely in in many movies, it's, you know, we're kind of going for scraps here. I do appreciate that it passed queer coding, and you know, explicitly we're like, these are these are queer characters, but it's like, I don't know of like I feel like, of all the issues that are like reference, but only like in a very surface, scratchy sort of way. This this was one of the big ones. But that said,
what is there? I think it's very sweet and I'm I'm rooting for them, ing for them too, But yeah, the movie spends more screen time on Dave and Gaz's reaction to learning this information than it does on the relationship itself, which I guess like and again, this is extremely bare minimum for them to for Gaz to have said homophobic things prior to that, but generally seemed to be accepting of this relationship is like again bare minimum, but this is yeah, I mean, it does seem like
this whole movie to an extent, is a journey of bare minimum acceptance narratives where it's like, oh, I'm not going to mock my friend's body anymore. I'm not going to make casually homophobic comments about whomever, Like I'm not going to assume the worst in and like objectify every woman who walks into my path, like it's like the
bar is on the floor. But yeah, I mean, but you're totally right, is like harping on the reaction versus like there's just there's room there was And I'm not even asking for, you know, this relationship to take over the movie. That wouldn't make sense. But it's like, can we have a scene with the two of them? Can
we have a scene with the two of them? Especially because according to our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia, the original cut of the movie came in under ninety minutes, so they went back and re shot, like shot some new scenes, like new scenes were like written into the movie. For example, the the scene where they're like doing an exercise montage and then they're like playing soccer that was shot later. Well that makes sense and really long, and I didn't
know why I was there. It's unnecessary. And if you notice, Robert Carlyle is not in that scene, those scenes because he was like filming other stuff, because this was after like principal photography on this movie and he wasn't available, so double frustrating. So there was like there was room, explicitly room for this relationship to be explored further, and the choice was simply made to not annoying. I don't like. Wow, now that I know that, I'm triple annoyed. Yeah, but
I like what's there. But but it's barely there. It's barely there, and it's you know, I kind of added in towards the end, and then you see a referenced in two scenes and then it's you know, we we spend and I'm not even saying it's a bad thing that we spend a lot of time with Dave and his wife, and we spend a lot of time with Gas and Mandy, but it's like, let's uh spread the
love around movie, come on. And then the final character is horse to discuss, so the thing that he is dealing with is that he is insecure about his penis size, which again is another just sort of byproduct of the patriarchal society that we live in, this toxic standard of masculinity. We talked about this on a recent episode on be Dazzled of All movies about society's obsession with penis size
and penis function. I suppose the idea is obsessed with penises, and it's like, um, we as a society must grow up on this. Really it's hurting people, it is, yeah, because there's this idea that, you know, you should measure a person's masculinity based on how big their penises and how it works. And it's like, it's very common still today to shame a person for having a small penis, or shame someone who's experiencing impotency or premature ejaculation, or
any number of things. And four different characters in this movie their subplot or at least part of their subplot has something to do with something relating to their penis, which I feel like for the most part, this movie handles pretty well, like the just that it gets explored at all that these men feel this pressure to have a penis that like aligns with society's expectations, and they
sentence feel the best sentence I've ever said. Um, you know, it starts to explore these, like, you know, toxic standards, and granted it doesn't dive very far into them. I think where the movie kind of fails here is that the character Guy, who I would argue we know the least about of all of these people. Yeah, all we know is that he is the lunchbox and that he
readd Gerald La. I think that's all we know. And he gets brought into the group strictly based on the fact that he has a large penis, so they are valuing him. They think that he has something to bring to the table based on his penis size, and they're not doing that in a vacuum. But that said, like it's you know, it's a it's a loaded decision, yes, And then I'm kind of curious about Horse being the character, so he's insecure about what he perceives to be his
small penis. Um He's also the only black character, and because there is a popular stereotype that black men have large penises, which of course is a very toxic stereotype because it's historically been used to over sexualized black men and to accuse them of being sexually aggressive. So the movie subverts this stereotype, and it also kind of makes me wonder, like, do as horse feel the pressure to
have a bigger penis based on this stereotype? And it barely requires saying, but all of these stereotypes are completely erroneous and there and they're also you know, in Horses clearly having an effect on his self esteem based on these complete lies that are being you know, forced upon him.
And it's kind of made a joke of in this movie, not in a way that I feel like it's aggressively punching down, but I do think that there was like a little more room just in the way that there is more room to explore his character in general, there was more room to kind of directly interrogate that stereotype, you know, where it's like referenced, but it's almost referenced as a given, rather than making it clear that it's like and this is total bullshit, you know, right, there's
nothing there's like no explicit indication that that is what's being referenced. It's just sort of like the movie just sort of treats that is like this is probably common knowledge, the very wink wink way of addressing it. Yeah, you know in a movie that I think that does a lot well. That is like a stereotype that is referenced without being interrogated or explored in anyway. And it just feels like a kind of a clearly missed opportunity for sure.
But because of how this story is set up, there's no one but white guys around to talk to um. The fact that we are having this conversation at all about like, the ambiguity of it makes it clear that the topic was not you know, made clear enough or adequately explored. And it's yeah, I it's I. I really like Horses character. And but he's you know, he's the only person of color in this group at all. He's
certainly the only black man in this group. We see his family in that really funny scene where like horses Horses feel like they really um, they're they're very supportive
of his endeavors. And they show up and we don't get to talk to them, we don't get to know who they are, Like they're the only black women in the movie, and they don't say anything, and we don't know who they are, and it's like I feel like this this is a really We've talked about this a bazillion times, particularly with nineties movies, but it is a you know, very a persistent trope of you know, the only person of color, you don't know that much about
their background or their home life, like in the way that and and and I get that it's like, you know, we we don't see the lunchboxes home life. Uh, but but I do think that that it's like again because we fully know that there are there is room to build out each and every one of these characters we've got the time, I think it's it's like it kind of sticks out that horses um home life, and his character isn't more fully fleshed out, and we don't get
to explore it more. I was like really disappointed, not surprised with the fact that our only black character, we we he has an arc. He you know, it's not
like he has no story. He definitely does. And it's you know, comparable to the stories that the other men are going through, where he's like you know, going you know, navigating this um these toxic expectations and coming out on the other side more confident and more satisfied with himself, but you don't get the whole aspect of it, which I think you get for every character except for Horse
and what is his actual name? Guy? Literally his name is Guy, which is why I keep I'm like, because I keep wanted to say that guy, but because his name is Guy. Um, Horse and Guy, you don't get that background. And I just feel like it would be you know, it would benefit both of those characters, but particularly Hoarse, to to more fully explore what their background is, where they're coming from. You know. It's like that the four men we have the home lives of four white guys,
you know, no problem. Um. So it feels it feels pointed, and it feels just like his characters, you know, under underwritten in a way that you know, for me, I'm like, it doesn't it makes no sense. Um. And Also, Paul Barber is such a fun character actor, and I just would have liked to like see him more like he's just he's just fun. He's so funny. This movie is
so funny. It is, I know. So it's yeah, I mean, and and I wish I wish that that that his story was just more fully explored because the fact that we have this little to talk about, like, well, yeah, yeah, it's telling. Yes. Do you you have any other thoughts about the film? Um, I don't really think so. I think just in terms of, um, you know, it's I guess it will not really uh shock anybody to know that it's all you know, white men talk to bottom.
In terms of production, I guess if it's actually there. There there is a female composer and Dudley who was nominated for an Academy Award for the score, which is interesting because I I feel like it's a jukebox movie, but she got dominated for her score, which I don't remember. There is Yeah, it's a lot of um the soundtrack. Well, first of all, the soundtrack is incredible. Um, there is some original score that is really good. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, she won the Academy Award. Did
she win for it? Yeah? One for Best Original Musical or Comedy Score. Weight Okay, I think this is a different category that I'm not sure actually still exists anymore for the Academy Awards. I'm not sure, but either way,
shout out and Dudley. Shout out and Dudley. So there there was you know, a win there, but like, this movie was just I don't know, I think it's like, ultimately it speaks to like this movie is taking a really funny, interesting way of exploring really commonly explored topics that clearly people wanted to see discussed in a movie.
Because it was so ridiculously successful. Um, it was the highest grossing film in the UK until it was outperformed by Titanic Feels Good, which, like, so it would have only been the highest grossing movie in the UK for a few months because Titanic came out a few months later. Look, I hope they enjoyed their brief but significant rain over the UK box office. It's such a fun movie, Like it's Yeah, if you haven't seen this movie, you really do yourself a favor. It's a blast. Yeah, it really is.
And it's about I mean, we didn't talk too much about this, but like any movie that's about like that explores and I don't know, well, we've talked about some of the ways in which these friendships are maybe not the most healthy, but I think for the most part, especially oh By, like it's the friends, the male friendships that are being explored in this movie are just really sweet, and I really like them and they clearly need it.
It's I do think that this is like a great example of like the realism is it's you know, no one is in the space of what a couple weeks going to go from being entrenched in thirty five years of toxic masculinity to being like, now all my male friends and I are talking about our insecurities every day, Like, but you see the seeds of it, you see and it is I mean we've talked, yeah, like we've talked about this on the show before of just like not
really an emphasis on like healthy friendships between men. It's just not something that's emphasized in I mean in society, but also in movies When and and and you see kind of the repercussions of that through like repression and
pushing stuff down and not communicating how you're feeling. And then you see, you know, like through their friendships, they start to feel some relief, they start to see other perspectives, They start to realize they're not alone in their insecurities and their worries that they thought were just so unique to them. It's beautiful, It's really this movie is really nice. I like it's much they helped set each other free because they learned to be more open and honest. I
love when the boys set each other free. It's so there's this is you know, we're we're We're not in the business of endorsing entirely where I'm not in the business of endorsing seven or six six or seven men on a poster ordinarily. But this movie really is an exception to the rule. It's true, it's great. Does it pass the Bechdel t I do not believe. So they're only scene where women interact with each other is that bathroom scene towards the beginning, Jean and her two friends.
They either talk about Dave or this guy named Frank. Most of the time there's like a couple of stray exchanges that like technically would pass, except that we don't learn the friends names. I do not believe, and they're also not characters who ever show up again. So I would say that that's not a pass as far as our nipple scale, and which we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on an
examination of intersectional feminism. So while this is a story that centers men and where women are like the side like his wife characters or his ex wife characters. Um. Even so, because this is a movie that by and large explores what toxic standards of masculinity due to men, how they affect men negatively, and how the men are once they sort of start to set them like to try to cast those standards aside and like set themselves
free of those standards, do they become happier and more successful? Um? And people are celebrating them to like at that at the end. I don't think we mentioned this yet, but yeah, like at the end to like see the boys all like comfortable in their own bodies and their whole families are like, yes, my confident family member, Like is it, oh, you know, if you put yourself in the position of like looking at I don't know. I'm like, what I want to see my dad in this kind of show. No,
but I appreciate the sentiment. Horses family, I think they're they're right at the end, they're there. I imagine they're covering their eyes whenever, or they're just like not looking horses direction. Also, Nathan is there. Nathan probably really just shouldn't be there around for most of this movie. Um.
But but with all that in mind. Um. It's a story about men who are products of their environment, who feel emasculated because of the circumstances and because of this patriarchal society that they live in, that start to learn to embrace other standards and to embrace healthier options. So because of that, I'm going to give this movie this is too high. Okay, I'm gonna give it three nibbles. I was going to do that as well. And it's your birthday, so it's my birthday, and I love this movie,
so I can do whatever I want. Damn good movie. It's so good. It's so funny, I really And while the characters do say some aggressive things that are homophobic and misogynist, I feel like there's a difference between the characters being that way and the movie also subscribing to that ideology where a lot of movies, especially from this era, the jokes that are being made by the movie are like punching down. I don't feel like the movie is
doing this. The movie isn't menching down. I care that they're supposed to look ridiculous when they say these things, and and and wrong, I hope, but at least that's how I view it. And especially because so much of comedy from this era, and most of like comedy movies from every decade, we're so reliant on punching down and making jokes that were homophobic, racist, sexist, transphobic, ablest, you name it. This movie avoids that for the most part,
and I appreciate that. So, yeah, three nipples. I'll give one to horses family. Hell yeah, I will give one too Mandy, who I have more of an appreciation for than I did as a younger person. And I'll give one nipple to the woman who peas on the wall while standing up incredible. Yeah, I'll also go with with a three here. I think that it is a very rare movie that is able to acknowledge toxic masculinity without endorsing it like that is such a difficult line to toe,
and I feel like it ordinarily fails pretty spectacularly. But it doesn't hear like I like you're like you were saying it is, I feel like that you understand. It's interesting to see very flawed male characters presented with empathy but also not endorsing what their behaviors and clearly demonstrating through the plot and through their arts and through how their behaviors affect their relationships, that this is not the way to live. I just I it's so well written.
It blows my mind. I was like, how did man, you know you hand it? You gotta hand it to them every once in a while. Um. I mean, I do think that the two characters that you neglect to um create a meaningful home life and backstory. For being your only black protagonist and one of your only queer characters is uh, perhaps let's say, a bit glaring when we are definitely focusing on the home lives of the straight white guys. No problem. That is just very and
um annoying, especially because we know there's room for it. Um. However, I just think it is. It is a very well crafted story about men working through their ship and also working through their ship together you know, and it and learning to communicate with each other, with their partners with you know, and and and how learning how to communicate.
Even though it does not lift them out of poverty, even though it does not solve the systemic problems, it does give them more peace and it gives and it's like, I don't know, I like I like when stories and just in general and people ask themselves like, are you know, I don't know. It's it's it doesn't end perfectly. You know that this one show isn't going to lift them
all out of solve Solving Industrial unless it does. But like, you know, there, there is there, all are all these things out of their control, and there are these things that are within their control, and it's they're just parsing that out throughout the movie and it's just it's really cool to watch. Yes, Happy birthday, Thank you. I love you so much. I've got your gift and I'm not going to show. I was like, I'm not gonna give it to you on camera. That would be very you know,
we need to have our interior life. But um, but happy birthday. You're the best. Thank you, Thank you. I love you, Jamie, I love you too well everyone, and a and a happy birthday to you all. Um. You know the stuff. By now follow us on social media. Hey for my birthday. Here's what you can do, listeners, give us a five star nipple rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you are able to rate podcasts. It's a nice thing to do. If you like the show. If
you don't like the show, keep it to yourself. It would it would be such a nice birthday gift if you gave me five nipples. Um, if you've got five dollars, you can put that toward a Matreon subscription, always an option that. There's also merch at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast and um yeah, Jamie. Now it's time for us to prepare for our live show in which you'll see her. I don't know when it is, and you might see your butts. Bye bye bye