On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie loft It, and we host a podcast about how the representation of women in movies is usually not very good. We've been hosting Ken doing it. Hell yeah.
So we use the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for the discussion of how women are portrayed in a certain movie. Bechdel Test for all you roubes, of course, being the media metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel that requires that, for our purposes, that two female identifying characters with names talk about something other than a man in conversation for just two lines of diala. Should we i'monstrate this? We haven't done this. We haven't done that in a while. Okay, um, hey, Jamie,
what is your favorite? Oh my god, I forget how to not talk about man? Okay, what, No, I'm gonna keep going. Okay, what's your favorite Meryl Street movie. How do you have to think about this? Oh? Is this a transition? No question? No, But how are you not remembering not only your favorite Meryl Street movie but your favorite Oh my god, Doubt Dog is my favorite? Oh my god, having a melt. Oh my god, Doubt is my favorite movie. I can't. I don't know. I'm very sick.
I was like Julia and Julia that can't be Sorry, we all have a lapse in our memories. I just lost sight of who I am. Remember. I think it was the pulp fiction episode that I kept accidentally calling her Meryl Street. Yes, that was a fun slippy, I believe. Forgot doubt. Jesus Christ. That's embarrassing. Okay, I forgive you. I gotta be vulnerable on those airwaves. People need people need it. So anyway that you know, we're talking about Meryl Streep and her movies, so that passes to back
to me. We're taking another cruise down Meryl Street today with another street fade. ALLU street heads out there, people pounding Meryl Street, pounding the payment of the pornographic of Meryl Street. Today we're talking about the devil Wares product. That's right, two thousand six. Joint to join us in our discussion. Is our guest today as a writer, editor and co host of back Talk podcast on Bitch Media. It's Amy Lamb. Hi, guys, welcome, thanks for being here.
I am very, very very excited to talk about this movie. What is your history, your relationship? Why did you pick this movie? So I had read the book, and I don't even remember how I got the book. I was living and teaching in China, and um, it was like a week where there was no school. So I just took this like um spontaneous trip with some other teachers, and somehow I got the book. And I really don't remember how I got the book. So I was like,
sometimes that book just appears inns. I'm wondering if it was like at the guesthouse you were staying. I I just have a terrible memory. But so I was reading the book because I was also trying to avoid the people I was traveling with. So it was one of those thing stories. So I read it and the book isn't that good, but it I studied um journalism as my undergrad so I was like one of those people where I'm like, maybe one day I want to be in this media world, so I need to read it.
Like like I had known that like the woman who wrote it, I'm forgetting her name, Laurenby. She had worked at Bogan. This supposed to be based off of an I Win tour. So I was just like, let me read about this like boss lady or whatever. And also
because I my very first job out of school. I don't know how much to say, but I had worked for somebody who had these vibes and it was at a media place, like she had these types of vibes where like one example is um, everybody came to the office at like ten or nine thirty, but I had to come in half an hour early, just me so
that I could turn on her computer. Like this is back in the day where like like like so that I had to go into her office and like pushed the power button and when I did it, she would holler at me because I wasn't in her office. I was like in the hall. She would be like, hey, man, I knew I was like funk, I forgot to turn
on her computer. So like so I had experience, and then so I wanted to read this book about another like weird boss woman and I read the book and I was just like, this is like a really fun read, even though the writing wasn't like amazing. And I think I read it an anticipation cause I knew the movie was out because I wanted to watch the movie. And this is one of those cases where the movie is way better than the book. I haven't read the books.
The movie is just like so much more fun and like lush and interesting look at, especially if you kind of enjoy fashion in some way. So I was living in China, so I had bought the bootleg version of it like for like a dollar or something, and I would watch it on repeat, like because I lived in this like very cold department where like there's nothing to do over the winter time. It was like always four dy degrees and I was just like have a space heater,
like frying my legs. Why I would watch watch it over and over again on my laptop, so I would. I watched it repeat forever, and then I didn't watch it for a long long time because it was like like two thousand and seven, and recently I just started watching it again and again and it titiuation of doing this podcast, but also just it's just so fun. But I think watching it now with like a fresh pair of ice, just like, wow, this movie would be so different than it was mad now and like the media
landscape or whatever. Yeah, that's why. I mean, it's only twelve years old. But watching it back, you're just like, whoa, there is a lot of stuff that this movie. Watching it this time around was like a very interesting mixed bag because and I am very attached to it. I saw this movie when it came out in two thousands six, I would have been in middle school, and it was
the perfect movie to see in middle school. I'd also read the book where I would like go to and I was in middle school, had to go to the public library and then go to like the ladies fiction section, so it's like hitting Meg Cabin books, but the ones for adults, not the Princess Diaries. And then I read all the Sophie Kinsella Shopoholic books, which were trash garbage, as were the movies, but this was I read this
book too, and I totally agree with the amy. I think that the movie is so much the book is like so much fun to read and you can like iTap through it because it's so that if and I've read it in literally middle school, but even then I was like, well, this is very like catty and pointed and it's just sort of this like veiled hate letter to Anna Wintour, which is fun to read. But the movie definitely so I think, removes itself from the direct
like nature of the book. And yeah, so I saw it with my mom and some friends in middle school. We all loved it. Revisit it. It's like a comfort food movie. I could have it on in the bat. I think I've had it on the background of doing other stuff multiple times since then. It is I find that a lot of movies that I either have to revisit or watch for the first time for this podcast feel like a chore to get through, and I didn't really feel like that for this movie. I was like
actually enjoying myself when I was watching it. And that's not to say it's not without its problems, but I was like, Okay, this is fun. I saw it for the first time. I think it was around the time that I was working in a similar professional scenario where I had a veiled description, but I was living in New York City ever heard of it. I was working as an assistant at a literary management company. I didn't
know you did that. Uh. Yeah, that was like my first real job out of college, which of course I did go to and then I did go to uh grad school for a master's degree screen running from Boston University. Um. So I was working at this job and I was an assistant to this guy who was very emotionally abusive to his employees. He was racist, he was homophobic, he was sexist. He constantly undermined my work and my value.
He he would make mistakes and then blame me for them and then yell at me for them and stuff like that. So like, this is like such a horrible toxic work environment and watching this movie kind of like triggered some mild pts that I have about that job. Um but I still enjoyed the movie all the same.
But yeah, I I think I watched this movie around the same time, So that would have been in like two thousand nine ish that I saw the movie for the first time when I was working at this job, and I was like, yeah, this used to be my life, but yeah, so that's my history. Was it I only saw at the one time and then until rewatching it for this episode. Shall I do the recap? Yeah, I've I didn't. I'm so interested to hear everyone's repressed assistant memories.
This is fascinating. I was wondering if I was going to have any Playboy flashbacks when I was walking, because I've also worked at a print magazine, but no one. Uh. If you're working at a magazine that is failing and it no longer culturally relevant, the pressure is lower. It's just kind of sad. It's just alcohol everywhere. So no PTSD ties from me. Unfortunately. Alright, let's recount. Great, so we're all, we're all part of this. We meet Andy Sachs.
That's Anne Hathaway's character. She interviews for a job to be the second assistant of Miranda Priestley. She's a recent brown grade. She's an aspiring journalist. She's gotten sorry, Lauren Weisberger was a recent There's so many details of this story where Lauren Weisberger changes one thing and she's like, it's not me. Andy has a middle part, so we know she is not a fashion icr um coated anne Hathaway language and Miranda Priestley Meryl Street Street of course. Um.
She is the editor in chief. Of Runway, a like high end fashion magazine, similar to him. We may know, Yeah, I wonder what it could be. And she her whole thing is that she is a bit. It's kind of her thing. That's kind of her thing. She's very high maintenance, she's very demanding, and she wears scarves big part of her identity. I don't even know what that means, like these French is it French French silk scarf? Yeah, which is a play on Anna Winter always wears gigantic sunglasses
and make her look like a bug. The wild part about when Andy comes into interview for the job, She's like, oh, it was like the tempt Agency Center. It was between this very glamorous, like high budget magazine and liked Trader or something like that. And I was like, but really like, also, don't say that in the interview, right there are so the way she conducts herself in that interview is very strange,
the way everyone conducts themselves in that interview. But it's like, imagine having the gall to go into an interview for whether you care about the industry or not, like a sought after job and just be like, I don't know what this is. I don't know. I think I'm too good for it, and who are you anyways, I'd like the job, never heard of it. It's like I was on Emily blunt side for that because only once. It's
like why did you hire her? It's like no one knows. Yeah, So basically Miranda takes a chance on her because Andy makes a case for herself and she's like, yeah, I don't fit in here, but I'm smart and I learned fast, and I'm a hard worker and I'll do a good job.
So Miranda hires her. We've met Emily played by Emily Blunt, and she is similarly like ruthless and um kind of dismissive of Andy, and she's like the first assistance, so she gets the more important responsibilities and she gets to go to Paris for a week with Miranda, and she lives and dies for it. We learned about the book, which is like a mock up of the current issue, which Miranda looks at and gives notes on every night,
hard copy. This is like, shockingly, I don't magazines are weird because it's like print is dead, right, and it also was dead in two thousand and six, but still pretty pretty dead. I do have to introject a little because Bitch Media also makes a print magazine four times a year. It's a quarter Ofly magazine, and it is I mean, it's very expensive. So I think that's why it's super dead. It is super dead, and like which
media is like read or funded? So like we're always doing the annoying kind of do we need to us that we can keep printing this magazine campaigns? But yeah, like we do. We do have to do a book so that you can print it out and look at it and see what it looks like when it's going to go to print. But the wild thing that I think about Andy' is that like she's like, what's a book? Right,
I'm like, oh, you went to Northwestern. You guys never like printed things up to prove that she studied journalists them, you know, So like there are these moments where it's just like I'm is, like, why did you write? Andy? Like, yeah, there's like certain things that if she were yeah, like if she were a journalism major, she would know about a mockup, you would think, But it is at every
magazine I ever, the book is still a thing. It's still a yeah, there used to be this man, who are old editor in chief at Playboy, would drive the book to Hugh Hefner's freaky mansion every day at four pm and you have to be like, do this, and then you have to drive the book back. It was like a whole and I'm just like, can we teach you Heffner how to use email? And the answer is like, no,
you can't. That's the thing this movie is that it's like such an important responsibility to deliver the book that normally it would be the second assistants job. But until Miranda trusts Andy to not be like a dangerous person, she she's not going to do it. Um, get rid of that middle part and then we'll talk. We meet Nigel, which is Stanley Tucci, the teach if you will teaches in rare form in this movie, yes, the tach. I mean,
his character is all over the place. But I love when gets work, which is a lot he's in movies. Touch okay, touch in Alfred Molina both delivered killer performances in Feud last year, so good for them, good for them. I mean Tooch was nominated, Alfred, as we know, was snubbed. So but you know what Alfred was on our podcast was the real winner here. So Andy is having a really hard time with the job at first because Miranda
is a devil who wears product I love. I love that stu very ridiculous shot of her getting out of the car and then these zoom in on that Bag's like just so, it's just it's so, it's like such an obnoxious filming the device. But I like loved it, so I thought it was fun. I like the things that this movie chooses to knock you over the head with. I'm usually okay, I'm like, you know what, she is
a devil and she and she there's no way around it. Meanwhile, Andy has a boyfriend named Nate and in Entourage, who is Vince whatever the fuck his name is in Entourage, a show that I unfortunately did watch six seasons of. Yeah, I'm embarrassed about it. Now we all have her, we all have her things that are dark. Um, and she's got her friends and they're all like, wow, your jud sounds crazy. Oh my god. Tracy Tom's is one of the friends from Rent. Yes, always criminally underused and supporting
role she's given. She's great. We don't even learn her name until like towards the end of the movie, she's like, Lily, Hey, you're like, oh, oh, your name is Lily. Also, the guy that the my crush from mad Men is in the friend group to Summer. Yeah. Yeah, he's a first I will never watch mad Men again. But he was the cutest. He was kind of like a beta. Yeah in mad Men, right, he's a thick beta boy. He's like a thick a thick horny beta. I guess thick
horny beta. Yeah, that about that. I think that's like your new line of merch just for thick horny uh. And then yeah, there is that scene where Miranda gives this big monologue about Marillion, and she's the iconic monologue of the movie. Yeah, besides when she says I'm the devil and product I didn't write, I didn't see it
happens in like four Guys. It's in that shot where you see her for the first time she loves to camera watching the world where gonna get the double foot version, and there's a lot of Meryl Street breaking the fourth wall. So then Andy is starting to get at the hang of the job, but she is also like still making mistakes and she's like why doesn't Miranda appreciate my work because she goes to Nigel for advice, and then we get one of the most intense anti millennial tirades I've
ever heard in a movie that seemed bugged me. I mean, and this was like two thousand six is like the beginning of like you won't think you're so special, don't you? He pays for everything, and it's just like she just wants to be you know, she's making like two dollars an hour and it's being screamed at, can you and
he's like, yeah, you need to. Like it's like an old man saying like I had to walk five miles in the snow to be whipped by Meryl Streep and like that sort of we'll get to that, but that whole vibe was like, oh, this is like early millennial hatred and movies. He also says, which is a line that gets repeated a number of times in the movie, but it's like a million girls would kill to have
your job. And that's something my old boss said to me regularly when I was like, I've been doing a good job and he's like, you know what, you million girls would kill to have the job you have right now, and it was like, no, they wouldn't stop sucks stick away. It's from the book because all over the book I don't remember, like, but it says like multiple characters say that to her, and so that's one of the things
that definitely carried over in the movie. Makes sense, they're a gas lady work environment, but that seems like a reflection of at least her experience, and it sounds like a lot of a lot of us. Yeah, it's a way to be like, hey, you're disposable. So if you don't do a better job, like yeah, like I can be mean to you, and if someone's mean to you, don't say anything, or we'll just be mean to someone else. Yeah, exactly.
You know, listening to you guys say this, I'm like, oh my god, that is because like so when I read the book and I watched the movie, I was like, yeah, I'm really girls would die for that job. Andy do a better I guess, well that he's probably not factually incorrect, like there would be someone who would take her job in a second, but just like the standard of like yeah, if you want to be in an entry level position, you have to be flogged, like it's just like take
the abuse that we give you brutal. Yeah, okay. So then he's like, okay, I'll give you some some cute clothes Andy, and so she gets an off screen makeover, but a makeover none the last we middle part nowhere to be, It's gone, all of that. I love that, Like there's a little this movie is just old enough that you need to listen to the music cue to figure out if it's a cute outfit or not, because it's not a cute outfit. Now, like the outfit Andy walks into the office with it's like this weird like
gossip Girl private school jacket. You're like, what is this? But the music is like no, no, no, no no no. I was like, oh, I guess this is good. I still don't know anything about fashion, which according to this movie, I should just fucking go and live in a hole. But I still can't tell if outfits are good or not. So I don't know anyway. So um, So she shows up to work. She's looking all sleek and high fashion. Emily's like, oh my god, like even Miranda is impressed.
And then Andy is like given her friend's present, she's talking about fashion stuff they're like, wow, you drink the kool aid and chriss And then after she gives them these they means her friends are like they don't they don't get it. So those scenes, Yeah, I'm excited to talk about those scenes because her friends because she is being weird and I don't have Has that ever happened
to either of you? Where like you get a new job or you get really into something and then your friends are kind of like, oh yeah, like James really into this fucking weird ship right now, like when I do me every day with Paddington, But like, has it ever caused it? Actual? Like, I don't know, I've worked for real tension freaky Okay, I've had experiences like that before. I already apologize for Actually I actually have a bone
to pick with you. No, I just like my my cousins didn't like when I was going through a phase in my career where I was when I was butt chugging on on Camra. So that was are they concerned about your health? No? That's if they had been concerned about my health, I would have been like, oh it's I am too, But they weren't. They were just like, not a good look. What if you want to run for office? And I was like, screw you, guys. Rand's calling left the table anyways, relatable soon and then Andy
goes to an event and she meets Christian Thompson. Colored Hair writer whose work she admires, is played by Simon Baker Flush colored Hair, a blond adult male. She starts to get the hang of the job. She finally does something well enough. I think it's like a hair Potter based plot point that gets her for Miranda to trust
her to deliver the book. She considers quitting for a brief moment, but then like Christian Thompson saves the day with the Harry Potter book and causing a rift with entourage, so their their relationship is tense um and then lately Emily has been making a lot of mistakes at work, so Miranda is like, hey, Andy, I want you to go to Paris with me instead of Emily. And then like Andy has to tell Emily this, it's like this
whole thing. She gets hit by a taxi. She and Nate break up, and then she goes to Paris and kisses a fucking creep. We'll talk about him in a moment. Yeah, he's like you want to get published in The New Yorker gives. My favorite part is when they're in Paris walking around together and Andy says like, I never understood what it was about Paris, but it's so beautiful and
he's like, yeah was the scene? Yeah? Um. And then Andy learns that they're going to replace Miranda as editor in chief with a younger woman named Jacqueline, and she goes to tell Miranda about it, and she's like, it's fine and don't worry. And then it turns out Miranda to save her job, she sells out Nigel, who thought he was going to be made partner of this new fashion company, but instead, like Miranda shoves Jacqueline into that position so that she can keep her job. And then
and he's like, well you did to Nigel. I could never do something like that, and Miranda's like like, honey, you already did, and she's like, you're right, I suck. And then she she walks away, she quits her job. She throws her phone, and then she throws her like sidekick into a fountain, like yes, two thousand sicks. And then she gets a job. I don't exactly know what magazine it's meant to be the newspaper, and then she
tries to get back together with her. It doesn't happen because he's like, maybe we'll work something, maybe we'll figure something out, and she's like, yeah, maybe we will, and then that's the end. He's moving to Boston. Yeah, but then he's just said, like the way he phrases it as wild because it's like she's apologizing to him and she owes him an apology and he's like, yeah, it's fine. I got a job in Boston. And she was like, oh wow. And he's like, so, I guess we're moving there.
And it's like there should be a discussion, right because he's like, there's cheese in Boston and bread, so I can still make you bread cheese sandwiches. It would, but then she gets it's unclear who knows. But anyway, that's pretty much the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break and don't come right back to discuss, and we're back. I guess what. There's been three sequels written to the Devil wors product, which, between Amy and myself
we agree was not a well written book. First Place was mainly a hit because it's a hit piece on Anna Wintour, but Laura Wisberger, she's still grinding him out in the there's the Devil Wares product, there is Last Night at Chateau Marmont, There's Revenge Wars product, and most recently, there is When Life Gives You Lulu lemon okay, just published last year. You know, I love a good six copy. I love a good play on words, So I appreciate that. I respect the working writer. So I love I love
a working writer. I don't love a book called When Life Gives You Lu? But do you make Lulu Lemonade? I mean, I guess we have to buy and find out. So where should we start? Oh, there's so there's so much to talk about and a lot of shades of gray in terms of how everything is is dealt with. I don't know where. Where did you let me point out?
In the very opening shots of the movie, like over the credits, we are seeing disembodied female body parts putting on bras, putting on underwear, stockings, and then it becomes a like one of these girls is not like the other montage where it's like all these conventionally beautiful women putting on all their like fancy laundre and their makeup and their like skirts and high heels, and we contrast that with Anne Hathaway's character, who is dressed in a
way that's you know, perhaps not quite as hyper feminine as these other shots were seeing ar say, she's not like the other girl. That's exactly what the movie is saying. And it's like the other women are like counting out seven almonds for breakfast, and then she's eating like a bagel and cream cheese. The others are taking like taxis or town cars. She takes the subway. So it's like very much like a it's like setting up a working girl kind of character for her. I think it's still
like this. This movie comes out five years after The Princess Diaries, and Anne Hathaway is still We're still suspending our disbelief to be like what an ugo like Jesus correct, Why why is this where Anne Hathaway is type cast? There are moments pre Andy getting rid of her middle part uh and wearing less layers that it seems like it's referencing the Princess Diaries in in terms of like how people treat her and all this. It's just I'm just like man, I'm tired of having to pretend Anne
Hathaway is ugly. I don't have any more belief to suspend right. And it's when she starts to change her look that that coincide story wise with her getting better at her job. And when whenever she goes to Nigel to be like, what can I do to be taken more seriously here? Her idea is to dress better, which makes sense it is a fashion magazine, but like, that's it seems like that's the only idea she It's not like, how else can I be better at the administrative aspects
of my job? Like? And she we do see her improve in those ways, but her main idea to like be better at her job is to look better. But I think I wonder if that's like a game she has to play to earn the respect of Miranda so that Miranda doesn't treat her like ship as much. Yeah, because I think when Miranda does see that she puts effort into dressing better, then she gives her a little bit more respect and actually starts calling her by her name.
You know, I think that's really telling when she does decide to and it was, and it wasn't after she did like heroic things job wise, but it is because she noticed that she dressed right, Like she's not doing necessarily a better job, she just looks different doing it, Yes,
and that's what garners the respect. And then real quick back to the opening sequence, where like I was thinking, those women you were seeing who were like putting on all like the high fashion items would be the other women women who were interviewing for that job, and that might be what's implied. But we don't see those women again, so they're basically just on screen so that we can one see they're like disembodied female body parts and to demonstrate how Andy is not like the other girls. So
like that's the only function. I kind of disagree with that. Yeah, I think that a lot of I mean, the first like ten minutes of this movie are so tight in terms of like you get everything you need to know. I thought that that was also just conveying a theme of like presenting you with the Runway woman type of like here's an example of a woman who uses this
magazine as her bible. It's like, I think on one side of the screen, we're seeing people who presumably subscribe to Runway or at least the ideas that Runway is selling. And uh so I think that there's enough function. And I'm, you know, always for calling out when like women's bodies are being used in like weird crops and like sexualized crops. But I didn't. I didn't think that that was what that sequence was trying to do. It didn't seem like
they were trying to sexualize it. It is kind of like an oversimplification of like some women be like this, other women be like this, But at least to me, tied into like the theme. Sure it was effective and demonstrating that type of women and stuff like that. And the strange thing was that, like, I think there are at least two or three different women of color and that opening montage and then Lily you know what I
mean for the rest of the movie. So they were like, I think they are used as props in this way to to to franciate Andy from like the other types of women, like you're saying, like the runaway ish women. But it's interesting that they casted women who very much didn't look like her in terms of women of color, but then didn't like plant more women of color throughout the world of Runway or just New York City or
like people she interacted with. This is one of those movies that takes place in a New York City where only white people live and work. And I bet when they cast it, um, the Lily character, they were like, we needed, we need a person of color in this that's what. Yeah. It really just feel like they just
slotted her in. And because I was like trying to think about like the representation of people of color in this movie, and I was like, wow, looks when I'm calling just like the opening moments, which is very really interesting, but that like they don't speak, they're just like they're to be looked at. Um. So that was like a thing where I was thinking, like what are they trying to do here? And I don't really have an answer.
I was just like pontificating on it. Yeah, I know that's important to note, and especially with like Lily's character, where she is so shoehorned into the storyline because we don't know anything about her Caitlin, like we're saying we don't know her name, and very late in the movie and she's I thought, even like even worse than a classic like best friend in a movie role we're at least most best friend in the movie roles, you know at least something about them, you know, like where they work,
how do they know each other, how long have they known each other? How do they feel about literally anything other than what's opening to the protagonist. But like Lily is there to provide exposition and like besides her boyfriend, whose nate is that rate, but to like provide some sort of like you've changed. Like that's the only reason we do know job vaguely, which is that she is
an artist who has a gallery show New York. To those two women in the job have the only two jobs that women are allowed to have in movies, especially when you live in New York City, which is you work at a gallery or you work at a magazine. So I mean there's like a lot of boring stuff to explore in that friendship. And I think they've known each other, she said, like I'm known for sixteen years, so we know that they must have known each other
as like high school student or like or something. But it's so funny that you guys are bring them that, like there's only two types of jobs that you can have there because even her jobs served as a plot point because it didn't make sense when they go to that gallery opening and Lily's like, hey, I designed this to like you to go to the back and start from the back and go to the front, which makes zero sense in terms of like design of experiencing a gallery show, like who goes to the back to work
them to the front. But it's a plot thing because it makes Andy go to the back and then Christian meets her there and then they're like they're having their secret rendezvous and then like he kisses her and it's supposed to look like sneaky um. But she could not have said that made made her gallery show look ridiculous.
It could have been like they have a look around and then like and he could have just been in the back, right, But like, even when they're giving Lily an interesting job, they made her look like a dummy just so that like we could usher ushered them and block them into the back of the gallery. Have no sense. Rude the Lily character. I mean, the movie fails her in every way. It's such a I just love crazy
Tom so much. She's great. Well, we can talk about the fact that this movie is one of the guiltiest examples of a movie that like portrays the trope of a career woman who is successful and in a leadership role in in her professional life. She is a fucking bit. Yeah, there's like a lot of like second I feel like we've been coming up against all these like very strong second wave feminism, like cautionary tales. Recently when I was doing some background and and and I I will say
I think Miranda's character is presented in the movie. I don't think in the book, but presented in the movie with more nuance and backstory than you get for most of these characters who, like prior to this movie are used strictly as like if you don't settle down, this will be you. And you're just like I mean, if you think about like Glenn Close and Fatal Attraction is like this successful career woman and her lack of like
a heteronormative perfect life drives her insane into murder. And there's another movie that I don't know why, I saw it a bunch of times when I was younger, but a movie called Working Girl. In Sigournie Weaver is the mean lady boss and that um and she steals an idea from her secretary who's Melanie Griffith. It's a similar
stock character whose background goes completely unexplored. I think this, I don't know, the Miranda conversations tricky, but this movie attempts to address some of those trumps, but it doesn't. I don't know, it doesn't effectively comment on our subvert quite enough for me, But I do think it's interesting that, you know, if you look at especially like the Glenn Close character, usually a woman with ambition has to shoulder
some horrible consequence of that ambition. And that's like one choice with the Miranda character that I thought was like cool and interesting is that Miranda is horrible. She fucks Stanley Tucci over, she doesn't apologize for it, and she suffers no consequences, which is, you know, a very corporate feminism take on that. But you didn't usually see that with like an ambitious woman. She's usually punished by the story.
That's true, and we do see the line where Andy is talking about Miranda and says something like, yeah, she's tough. But if Miranda were a man, no one would notice anything about her except how great she is at her job. So that is like one of the few attempts the movie makes a being like see, we get it feminism, right, which is something. Yeah, I agree that, Like it's it's hard to like place Miranda in a way. Like like we said earlier, I was just like maybe I'm just
like a forever gasolate person. But like I was just like, Miranda is just really good at her job, you know, and like, yeah, she has like her really bitchy moments, and but but even her bitchy moments are like so beautiful, like that you know that montage of her like slamming her purse and her coat on the on the desk, I'm like, I will just watch that montage sometimes I will just google it and like look up and not just watching because I'm like, yes, like I look at
the outfit she's wearing. I look at what Andy is wearing, and look at the reactions, and look at what she's I want to hear again what she's asking for. She's just asking for a vague ship, Like where's that piece of paper I had in my hand? I'm like, yeah,
where is that? But like I think that for somebody of her caliber and like the job that she does, sometimes like you just have so much ship going on, you just can't keep track of everything, but like because it's being delivered through a woman and not a man, Like I think we have like feelings about that because
we expect women to act a specific way. So I do feel like, yeah, like she's not a very kind boss a lot of the times, she can't be really hard to work for, but she's the devil's always, just
in case you forgot, I am the devil. But I wonder if like this is just on the spectrum of women who work and this is how they behave, Like maybe she's on the far end of like a really not great boss, but it's just like one of the portrayals of women who work and like, you know, and if we think that like women bosses who aren't like that are just bitchy and awful, then like that will
always just be a trope. But I just kind of lay her on that spectrum because like there are moments where I think, I think it's a maryle thing that gave her this nuance where you know, like when she answered her phone her daughter called, She's like, oh hey, Bubsy, I'm like, oh my gosh, she's a mom, you know, or like even when she sucked selling teacher over for
that job. I was like, she's saving herself because like the industry is agist or like the industry doesn't want to pay her what she's worth, right, So I'm sorry Stanley.
But like, also Stanley is a man, Like he doesn't have to work for her if he doesn't want to write, Like, if he wanted to go off on his own, I'm sure he could ask permission be like yeah, you kind of me ever kind of leave She's I think she's reasonable enough to be like yes, which to some extent Stanley knows because when it happens, he just sits there and it's like my time, look, and it's it's a
sad moment. It's a difficult moment for that character. But you're totally right, Yeah, it's like she is saving her ass because no one else is going to, like, no one is going to come to bat for an older woman trying to survive in a very high pressure environment, which I think you know, you see proven over and over right, and one of the things that doesn't get talked about enough where we see the trope of professional women in high status jobs being portrayed as being these difficult,
heinous women. But what gets ignored is that if they are perhaps acting that way sometimes it probably has something to do with the fact that women in order to be taken seriously in the professional sphere and to climb the ladder, they have to work harder than they're like
male counterpart. They might have to be kind of more ruthless and just like any number of things to be taken seriously, because, yeah, the industries are exists, they are agist, and for her to behave this way is probably a direct response to the way that women are treated in every aspect of their life. Right. It's another thing that this movie avoided for me. It's a it's not a trope that really existed as much in two thousand six.
I think it's like a slowly emerging one. Uh that I don't know if I'm going to articulate it right, but um, this sort of avoids the Miranda character, avoids the tropes of like a girl boss character where the girl boss trope is something that drives me nuts, whether it's like someone performed being a performative business person or in in a in a piece of narrative fiction where it's like a woman who is a capitalist at her core. Even if you know she's she's good at her job.
She's a business owner, she's a capitalist, but then posits it as like, but I'm like one of you. It's like Cheryl Sandberg is like peak girl Boss, where it's like someone who's doing a bad thing but is treated like oh no, but she's actually like yes, queen, you know, and and and she she uses like the veil of feminism to feel like me being empowered empowers you. And I don't think Miranda does that. Miranda's just a person
working a job. And she has like self awareness because because like there's that scene where like her and Mr Priestley are going to divorce and she's like doesn't have any makeup on. And I think that the credit to how nuanced Miranda's is to mistreat. But you know, she's like she's her face is bare, and she's just like, oh, the tabloids are gonna eat this up. Like they should pay me because they write so many pieces about me.
She's like there's so much self awareness there. She knows what she's projecting, but fuck it because she needs to make this excellent publication and like and she knows what she's doing. Yeah, she's like and she's not like a faker the way that a lot of people present themselves in similar roles, which takes a certain out of like conviction and courage to be like, no, I'm selling ship.
I know how to do it better than anyone, so pay me for doing that, and not like you're saying, like covering it with a veil of like no, I'm for all women. It's like, no, Miranda is here to do a job. She's here to do a job, and there's a lot of forces that are going to make
it more difficult for her to do that job. But like I think, I wonder then if like, because you know, feminism, corporate ties feminism or marketplace feminism is so trending now, so I think that's why Girl Boss tropes are like flourishing. But if it was as trendy then because like feminism was still very much like a four letter word, you know, like just even ten years ago, which is so wild to think about. But if it wasn't, I wonder what
would have happened to the Miranda character. I know, well, yeah, that's just like what if I don't know, I mean, I guess how do people view in the wintour right now, because it does seem like most women there's I would imagine some pressure right now for been working in high levels of business to put on that mask. And that's not to say that it's not at least sincerely held in part, but it's just I don't know, corporate feminism frees me the funk out of like we think you're
beautiful by this soap. Also we're waging war and me and mar sorry like that, Cheryl Samberg, Cheryld Samberg. She's the scariest personal life. But I I wonder if if if this movie came out today, if that would be sort of addressed. But there's not. I mean, it's weird any any manner of Like outright feminist statements are strictly made by Andy and are usually shot down. Right, We've got to take another quick break, but we'll be right
back after that. Amy, going back to the scene that you were talking about really briefly, where Miranda is talking
about her like impending divorce. So that's an example that we see in a movie where it's a character who is a professional, successful woman but her personal life is in shambles basically, which is perhaps sometimes a realistic portrayal, especially when it's you know, the man, the husband who resents the fact that his what, his wife is successful and you know, feels threatened by that or emasculated by that or whatever, because it's a really subtle moment in
the movie. But whenever Andy is delivering the book to Miranda's house for the first time and like was like, yeah, it's a good idea to go upstairs and she overhears a conversation where Miranda's husband is saying something like, oh, you know, people are looking at me in the restaurant thinking he's waiting for her yet again, which shows that he is threatened by the fact that what people think
of him. Yeah, So on one hand, it's like, yeah, you see this what maybe a realistic portrayal of like a man being threatened by his wife's success, his wife's success. But then you also have to see a woman who is successful in her profession have her personal life be compromised basically, so it I don't really quite know how
to feel about it. For the most part, it worked for me for the most part, I mean partially because this movie has the benefit of getting to be like, well, it's technically based on Anna Wintour, and a lot of that personal life stuff is adapted from Anna Wintour's life with two field marriages, two kids, trying to balance mother and and the reason I liked seeing I mean just learning anything about a character like Miranda's personal life in a way that doesn't make her comple lately tragic in
a way that might have been easy, the easy choice of like, well, she's so good at her job, but look, her personal life is difficult, and instead of leaving it that we go back to her job and watch her be really fucking good at her job and ruthless in her job. Again, so there's like some nuance presented. I don't know it. There is a weird, like halfway nous of implying that, like, while her personal life is suffering
in this very specific way. But then I'm like, I guess if you had shown like, and she's actually an incredible mother and no one credit like that would have felt very hollow and disingenuous as well, Because, of course, and this is kind of implied about her a number of times, there is still this expectation of Miranda to like be a mother that is not usually put on male professionals at that level. They're like, oh, well, isn't
there a nanny. Isn't there a mom that's taking care of the kids, But she's still expected to have the same level of you know, affection and and and doting nous that a stereotypical mother did, which they which is again,
there's a lot of stuff that feels halfway addressed. I think for the thing about their marriage ending, in a way I kind of not appreciated it, but like I think it spoke to this notion that like, oh we can have it all, like you know, like was that second wave of feminism which whichever waiver that we think that like women were being told like you can't go to work and you can have a family, etcetera, etcetera, And and like I think that like our generation and
women is like, no, you guys are you guys are fucking tired, You fucking are miserable. You you divorce your partners because it's really hard to do this. And some of us are childless or some of us like have kids and don't work because it's that's why people have wives. That's why men have wives that they can have a job. I often think that my partner, I'm like I wish I had a fucking wife, so like that all this ship just just even like something I like, I'll give
him like you know, burba feet. I'm like, I wish I had a wife to my feet because he didn't do it good. I I have it all either, But I'm saying like in that moment made me think, like, yes, like she's really good her job and it can be in the sacrifice of her personal life, but she chose it. I think that's what in the end, like feminism is about, like whatever you choose. And in that scene, she's not that sad that the marriage ended. Like if you hear what she says, she said at how it's going to
affect her kids. Yeah, yeah, she says, I don't care what anybody writes about me, but my girls. It's so unfair to my girls, right, So, And I think that was like you know, the script's way and Miranda's way of saying, like the job is way more important to her than her marriage, but her kids are maybe like
the number one. And I think that was important to point out and and I think it's it was necessary so that we're not thinking like a Miranda type of person can be who she is and then also have like a really great support system because it's maybe not
completely realistic. And I appreciated that. I liked I I liked it, and it's like there the trophiness that I loved about, Like the only scene where Miranda is not wearing make up and you're just like, Jane Fonda does it all the time, and Grays and Frankie, I love it. Jane Fonda does this thing and Grace has anyone see yes okay? In the first episode of Grace and Frankie where Jane Fonda apparently had some sort of wire around her head to hold her skin, yes, her head and
falls off. In the pilot episode, I saw a beauty regimen of a caliber even I wasn't familiar of that. Like I don't know, I love Grace and Frankie. Jane Fonda has a wire around her head like to pull to pull back, but it was a wire attached to her wig. She also Jane Fonda is a legend. I mean, but even like when Merrit streets bare face, they do these clothes up on her face and I'm like, girl, who is your doctor because good job? Or what is the wire wearing? Because where yes, because like her skin
is looking good and like it's very good skin. I have a high deff helemet. I don't know if you guys have one. I do, like like I was thinking like like she either has a really good doctor or like some kind of like wire thing, but like she looks magnificent in it. She can't go bare face. But like for us as viewers like, oh my god, so brave that like a woman with gray hair and went
bare face. You know, I'm we're conditioned to think that way, and we're conditioned to think, wow, she looks so good pause for her age, and it's like, no, like she looks good. Yeah, that's a way of like the society feels that way too. I think the movie like wants you to be like I don't know, some mix of like either like wow, she looks different or like wow she looks good like for her age. I don't know that the movie is necessarily like this should be normalized
like that. I don't think that that's intention vibe um, but we all we all like I'm having to undo a lot of conditioning where I like, we'll catch myself thinking, oh wow, she looks really good for her age. But it's like, no, that's a horrible way to think, because like we are conditioned to think that with women age, they you know, they lose their value. And you know, we have this standard of beauty that says that only young women can be considered attractive, and like, I'm not
having to undo a lot of this thinking. Still, shall we talk about Andy? Yes, let's talk about Andy. Andy is an interesting and interesting character. I right at the top we briefly talked about her interview. But I've just never seen anyone succeed with such a flippant attitude towards the very powerful job they're applying to. But you know, she does um, but she does. There is there is like another a narrative for her too, that is like trying to have it all and personal life suffers as
a result. That happens as well, and it's weird. It's like the resolution to that is a little confusing to me, where it's like she's trying to have it all, but then her friends and her boyfriend are like you've changed, which she has, uh, And then she decides, fucking I'm throwing my sidekick into the fountain, And then I don't know, I mean The ending is kind of ambiguous for her of like is she in a relationship? Does that what she wants? Like we don't. We still don't really know,
But it didn't bother me too much. I think when the film came out, you know, like ten years ago or whatever, I think we wanted to think that like they were still together and that those things were important. But I think that there are like new memes now when people talk about the movie where they're like, can we talk about how trash her boyfriend and friends were?
Like they were not good, Like they're not a good support system, you know, Like who moves to New York City and thinks that they're going to get like some amazing job right off the bat. Nobody does, you know, So like this notion that like she moved to New York City, she's struggling on a job, like and all you guys do put fun at her ship on her, yes, and almost like risk her losing her job at one point when they like throw her phone around when yeah,
I was on Andy's side and being horrible. There's also a moment early on where her friend Doug says something like Miranda Priestley is famous for being unpredictable, and and he's like, how do you know who she is? And I don't, And then Doug says, I'm actually a girl. And then Lily says that would explain a lot. I, Darling, no what you meant by that? So I guess it's implying, Yeah, like only a woman would know who a fashion icon is.
That's reductive. And then for Lily to say like, oh, yeah, that would explain a lot that you're a girl, Like that sounds weird, some sort of weird gender phobic thing. Two six we a lot of weird exchanges. Uh. Super producer Sophie just also made the note that we do we do you learn a little bit about Andy's family life and and her when she goes to dinner with her dad, there's a very similar vibe of like why
aren't you working? And I'm like, she's twenty two, what are you talk And we only know her dad, never meet her mom gets mentioned, but yeah, we don't know anything about her mom. At least she's not a Disney princess. The mother's alive, but just never just not allowed to be. Yeah, the only thing I was one of the biggest things I remember that about that scene is when he gives her a check and she's just like, oh, you shouldn't have but yes, but but also like it was no
big deal. And I was like, oh, that's so what a life. I know. I have never, I have really never because that that has been a check for like thousands of dollars. Yeah, what I mean what was that? It was to help with her rent I think in New York and that fucking apartment that she had apartment iguantique. Yeah. God. And when I was were I guess twenty two if she's a recent grid like yeah, I mean when I was in college, my dad used to have these jars.
Uh it was for my brother, and he would put dimes in one of the jars that he just found or god has changed, and he put nickels in the third jar, and at the end of every month, he'd cash out the jars and some and and that would be like it would always be like twenty bucks. But that was like my dad's version of that. He's like, here all the times I found this month, I found two hundred dimes. And sometimes it would be a dime month, or sometimes it'd be my brother's dime month. And if
it was a shitty month. You get like literally a check for five dollars. It's like it's a nickel month. Shut up, my coloftus and his many jars. There's a penny jar. But and I was like, I don't. I don't my dad collected pennies in a jar too. What is it with? What is the dad dad in coin jars? My dad doesn't have a jar. Now I feel left jars. I got to bring them over. If they have jars,
they will put coins in them. So my dad used to like I used to bring my laundry home to do when I was in school or after I just graduated, and then like take food, and he would like make fun of me. He'd be like, oh, like here comes my homeless daughter. So like that's my across the one I saw her dad to slip her a check like it was no big deal. I was like yeah, I was like, but but literally, I think that's how you
have to survive. And then that's why, like you know, in the media world we talk about like who gets to be interns or like who gets to be like very low paid workers um to get their foot in the door so that they can then become like high paying editors and stuff. It's like people who come from a background where like they do have a support system in that way. But that was a moment I was like, well, thanks for showing that because you do feel for her
a little. Yeah, it is useful to have that context. And and like seeing the check past. I wonder if that was done intentionally to be like, and this is the only way that I don't know, it's not clear. It seems like she's pretty low paid at Runway. I mean those assistant jobs always are. Yeah, so the see
seeing the check past. I wish we were addressed a little more because it is useful to have that context of like, she's miserable and she's still very privileged to have this safety net to fall into, or or to even imply that she has a plan B outside of this low paid nightmare job that she has is something I don't know, because the film doesn't do enough of a job of telling us like, oh, she needs this job for money. It tells us repeatedly she needs his
job so she can move up. That's her meal ticket into whatever job in publishing she wants. Yes, I think that's another reason why that check scene stood I was like, Oh, I forgot that. Maybe she can't make rent. You know, right, it would be interesting to see more of a dive into that side of things. But I mean in two thousands six, no one was talking about that. I feel like that was like approaching like late two thousand's early
two thousand tents was like peak unpaid internship. Shut up and take it and if you can't afford to do it, fuck you, find another job. I think what was confusing is that, like the film was trying to make us or maybe it's trying to make us feel away about the industry, like not just media or publication, but the fashion industry, but then glamorizing it so much because because we're supposed to understand that Andy thinks it's frivolous and
just stuff. Um, and then and then she starts to wear the stuff and that and the other amazing montage this movie has so many Mota game is strong, and like I said, I like YouTube from a lot different and leisure, but then it glamorizes. So that's what left
me confused. It's like, so does she appreciate it at the end or does she still think it's bullshit and she's happy she's got because when she showed up to that newspaper job interview, she looks good, she had a nice so she was changed from But then she gives all of her clothes if she got in Paris to Emily is like, she just kind of like a weird what I mean, it's what she should take her out to dinner, like there, I don't know that Emily would want to hang out with her, and Emily doesn't eat.
So we talk about it really quick, just sort of going off of what you just saying. A wait, what were you just saying? It's about fashion? Oh okay, So I agree that this movie very much, for all of the good things it does, does end up being like so if you think that the fashion industry is stupid and manipulative, you're stupid and like you're just you just haven't given it a fair shake, which is a very
reductive basic message of like, actually fashion good. It reminds me of all the pageant movies we've been doing on this podcast recently, where it's a similar, a more muted version of what happens to Sandra Bullock and Miss Congeniality where she goes in with the middle part saying like I'm a feminist, this industry is bullshit and saying things that like I think the movie by the end is like, but it's not like that when it's like we sort of in or like yeah, there's a lot of truth
to what she's saying, but Ann Hathaway's character here too, Yeah, it's like by the end, I don't think that we're supposed like even when she was like this is just stuff and that the Cerulean monologue is so good, but
it is trying to prove that. It's like, no, this is actually good and you should be participating in it, and you can't not participate in it, so you may as well just immerse yourself in it, which is sort of like a similar message we get from Miss Congeniality about pageants of like instead of defying this industry, find a way that you're comfortable participating in it, which is like not the greatest because like at the end of that monologue, like Randa just straight up like like that
color you're wearing, we literally chose that for you, Like like you're saying, like, even if you don't choose to participate in it, like you are in it because we forced it on you, so you better embrace it. And but the way the movie shapes like Andy's arc is that like girls looking good at the end, you know, so like as view are, you're like like she's glowing her skins good. Now she's a size four, you know,
like how yeah, and she's a celebrating it. And but it's not telling the viewer to be like to be like oh my god, Andy, It's it's telling the viewer like yes girl, you know. So it's like it's such a confusing message. And I think Andy's ark is even way we're confusing the Miranda's ark because like from Miranda, were like, oh is she really evil devil, worst product boss? Or can she be more? And I'm work given more of like a nuance, I think because maybe Meryl Street's performance.
But with Andy, it's like it's really really confusing, especially because like early on, I forget who she says it too, but she says something like, oh, just because I have this job doesn't mean I'm going to change everything about myself. And then she changes a lot of stuff about herself, including the way she presents herself, including her the way
she treats other people. Yeah, it's it's she goes through this arc that I can't say I necessarily admire, and I get by the end when she, you know, does the symbolics throwing of the phone into the fountain and walking away from Miranda, it's like, Okay, she like has reordered her priorities and she is like she changed back for the better. But the movie does frame her becoming this new stylish person is like such a glamorous, wonderful
thing for her that it sends mixed messages. I think, And I think like, even as like useless as Nate is, he does say one thing where I'm like, oh, funk, yes, when um he's mad at her for something, maybe when she didn't go to her birthday party, or like oh when he when she has to go to Paris, and he was like, you know what, I don't care that if you're into this stuff as long as you did it with conviction. And that's the feeling I get about Andy. It's like like I don't care she's into this stuff.
I don't care she feels like she needs to lose weight, Like that's she can have her own agency and she can make those decisions. Um, and if she thinks she
looks better and clothes whatever. That's like her thing like live your life, but at least like be into it and like live that, and then I would respect that more than like this weird wishy washing us, because is even when she throws the phone in the fountain, I didn't think it was like, oh, I'm taking back my life again, like I renounced this lifestyle because like Maranda just got done doing that thing like everybody wants to
be us. I thought of it as like Andy being mad that Miranda just called her out on going to Paris. Oh yeah, because it wasn't so much like everybody wants to be us, because that is true, and you know what, Andy did want to be there and and he was that it was because like Miranda just like said, well you just did it to Emily, you know, which, which wasn't that fair for her to say because Emily, you know,
got hit by a car. But yeah, that I mean, And and that is a confusing like it's a confusing message to send because it's like, you see what Miranda is saying, but then it's implied that the solution to that is just to leave that industry. And then it's fine, I don't know, it just seemed like an overly simplified,
resolute shin. Andy's character is weird, and it's it's frustrating because, like, like the Sandra Bullock Miss Congeniality character, I largely agree with everything that she says at the beginning of the movie, and I agree with her more at the beginning of the movie than I do at the end. Yeah, so
then what was the point of the journeying? I guess right, That's why I like, in a way, we think of this movie as like Andy's story, But like when I finished watching the movie, I'm like, I want to know more about Miranda. Yeah, I want to know, like, well, who is she dating after this? Like what are her kids grow up to be? Like who's her new assistance? Will happened to Emily? You know, like like Andy's just like this conduit by which I get to learn about Miranda.
I want the best for Emily to Emily. I mean, Emily's character is kind of cartoony and how she's presented, and Emily Blunt is like so fun in this movie. It's one of her first parts ever. I mean, it's weird because I think the movie counts on you being so on Andy's side that you're supposed to be like, Oh, Emily is so uppity and me but like most of
the time she's right. She can be harsh, but she is usually right where she's confused as to why Andy got the job, So was I. She's like, you don't know anything about this job you just got, like why
did you apply? And that's supposed to be like mean and dismissive, but it's like, but why like and and the fact that her store her like b plot gets so out of control that she gets literally hit by a car was like, I, I don't know, it's like she I thought, like ten years later watching her, it was like there was a more grounded plot than the movie gave it credit for, because she's just supposed to seem like Andy stealing my life and a very like
female competition in the workplace is narrative that was kind of was pretty tired and again counts on you being on Anne Hathaway side no matter what. But I liked Emily's character and it was so clear that she knew exactly what she was doing and was really good at it and dedicated her life to it. And I don't understand why Andy would get preference over her like it doesn't. And I think that sometimes the implication is like, well, she wants it too badly, and it's like what she's
working too hard she's doing I don't know. Yeah, my main takeaway from that is that it is like kind of promoting the trope of you know, women who work together or who are in close proximity to each other. They got to be competing because that's just how women are. And I was surprised or I don't know, I just supposed that I was expecting something more along the lines of, oh, well, they're both working in this like toxic work environment and
it's like high stress job. You think they would bond over the fact that there's in similar roles in dealing with similar things, and there would be like solidarity there that they can bond over. But Andy is not good at her job and doesn't know what she's doing. But that's true, that's true of anyone who starts out at a job. I mean, she's way more behind than probably most you know, she doesn't even know where she is
in the beginning. Like I don't know, I think if if a if a new coworker of any gender, approached me. It's like, excuse me, what is this. It's like, I don't have time for this. Like but but there's no nuance in the way that's presented. And it's also always like, well, feel bad for Andy because this lady is being so mean to her. And then the actual first time they really bonded was when they meet at that benefit dinner and Emily was like, oh my god, you look cheek
for the first time. And then Andy says to Emily like, well, you look skinny. It is and he's like, oh my god. Saying that bonding scene is crazy. It's like the scene where Emily blunts is a bunch of like really troubling stuff about her her eating disorder and and and it's just like, while you look amazing, and then she's like, cool, we're friends now. It's like this is what we bought it over, not the mutual abuse you also, and like at no point that does Andy go like, what you
eat a cube of cheese a day? Like can we run down is eating disorder? Her? All the white stuff in the movie where we I think the first mention of it is Andy is getting corn chowder for lunch. Stanley Tucci's character makes fun of her and she's like, what, none of the girls here eat anything? And he says not since two became the new four. Zero became the new two. And then she's like, well, I'm a six and he's like, which is the new fourteen? So like
body shaming her. Um, Miranda says she's speaking to Andy. She says, I said to myself, take a chance, hire the smart fat girl. It seems like they're trying to go for satire here sometimes, but it just doesn't work. It doesn't work because Miranda's like sincere in other ways. And and Stanley, who's called Stanley Tucci, who he goes in, he like starts nicknaming her six. He's calling her six like and all the and there's nothing in this closet that will fit a size six like and then yeah,
he's like, you're getting chowder. Like he's just like he's furious anytime a woman eats, and it is it is a trigger for him women being nourished. And then at the end of the way that all sort of wraps up is that he says something like you bet your side sticks ass, and then Andy says, I'm afar now and he's like really like at a moment they bonded, everyone's bonding over these very sinister body standard things, which yeah, I feel like it must be an attempt at satire
to some degree, but also it's not. It doesn't land for me. I just I see this and I'm like, oh, they are idolizing small body types. That's what we're supposed to take away from the movie. Yeah, No, I think it's it thinks it's being cute and clever with that stuff.
But I don't know for me it totally. And it's it's so pervasive because there are like other times where like Miranda talks about like a model that got hired, and she also makes a remark I think about the models wait, like called her frumpy or something, but that I think that was deaf. Only one of those moments where I was just like the funk, you know what I mean? Like and if I if I wasn't who I am and have had my own issues with like you know, eating stuff, but like I've recovered unhealthy now
or whatever. But if I was, I think if I was younger and more impressional, why I'd be like, oh this is I wouldn't even think it was satire. I would just think this is like a normal thing. Yeah, that like adult people talk about in their work, which
is like really fucked up. And if you're a kid seeing that movie, because I remember that Emily bluntline so specifically because I saw some smood and I was like thirteen, and that was like some early proto Jamie eating disorder, like peak era, and it at the time sounded to me like a literal suggestion of something you could do versus Oh, they're trying to make a comment on how
body centric this. It's just if you're gonna bring up the issue of body shaming in the fashion industry, valid huge part of the industry, but like make it very clear, especially if you're marketing your movie at young people, that you're being critical of it and that it's unreasonable and that it shouldn't be an objective because yeah, like the cube cheese line was like, oh, you can do that, even though Emily Blunt is like subtextually saying like and
it's killing me and I'm almost dead, but all I got was like, oh, cube of cheese, you won't die sick, like and like she follows that me they be saying like, oh, I think she says like, I'm one stomach flew away from being a zero my goal away, and she's like she's sick during that scene, she has a cold. So I'm thinking, like are you are you there yet? Like you know, like is this the stomming cool that you're getting? Like okay, go, you know, like there's no like critique
of it. There's no Andy being like no, maybe we should like why don't we step aside and you have something that's not a cube of cheese. There's nothing like that, Like all of the things that are talked about with wet stuff. Is just very matter of fact. She's part of this world and like you should aspire for it.
And the fact that Andy is like super excited to be down to a size four at the end of the movie, like that just drives the very wild thing about that is that she looks the same, you know what I mean, from the beginning the end of the movie. So then like if you have like body dysmorphia and you're like you're thinking that this person who's the same body size from the beginning to the end is actually has actually fluctuated, it'll just like feed into anybody this
morphia that you might have. It's yeah, this movie mishandles that theme, and it also made me dislike Stanley Tucci's character, who I loved at the time the movie came out, and I still like, I have a lot of love for that character, but so much of the focus is on that and then it's like that's where they bond and we sort of touched on how his character is also very much like, no, you need to accept abuse in the workplace, and you know, just do it until
you get you know, you'll get praise when you're doing a good enough job, which is you know, not just like a hallmark of abusive work relationships, but all of them and and sends I think, I mean, that seemed to be a value that the movie held earnestly based on how it turns out. It's like, well, if you are working around the clock for low pay, you change
your appearance entirely, then you can become successful. And the movie doesn't really challenge that in any way because that's what happens is he is that character or queer coded I believe, yeah, yeah, he says like um when he talks about like his background of how he was like a little gay boy, he used to sneak a runway and would read under his covers. He doesn't make it clear that it's specifically him that he's talking about, but
you can make that connection pretty easily. So that's yet another example that we see in a movie of a queer character who gives a makeover, which is something that we see so often. And I really didn't like about that makeover except for the fact that it mercifully took by soft screen. Was was that comes at the end of this long gas lighting except abuse in the workplace scene, and then the writer has the goal to make it Andy's idea to be like, hey, why don't you give
me a makeover? I was like, you've just failed everyone, every character in this scene by having it be like I mean, that's so true. I hadn't thought about that because it would be one thing if maybe Nigel suggested it. It was like forced on her. Not that anything you should be forced on anyone, but like the fact that they put it on the character just felt weird. I
don't know. And if you think about her makeover and the clothes that she ends up wearing, it was just such a generic makeover, like I had nothing of like who Andy might be you know how like if you watch makeover show, he was like, Oh, you like to wear things like this, Let's get you things like that, but like better to fit you better, or like a color pellette that might like help you with your features better or whatever. Yeah, but she's literally like wearing like
fashion spreads. Yeah, it's just whatever free clothes are available that happened to fit her. And she's very comfortable in this she's walking in for and she was like, yeah, thatstuff was like fun to look at. But I was just like, girl, really like not even not even one twisted ankle or you know, are being like, oh, the skirt is kind of too type this wol doesn't feel right against my skin none, none of that. She's just
like dives right into it. And I think that's why I just feel so weird about the anti character in this movie. She's like so like she's telling us verbally like I don't want to do this, but then all of her actions were saying like I'm feeling this very freely and happily, and it's making my life better. It looks so much better. Can we talk? I know this
episode is already so long. Can we briefly talk about the Christian Thompson character and how he is a fucking horrible creep that the movie does not really acknowledge or punish him for. Um, I'll just kind of run through a list of the things that he does. When he first meets Andy, he tells her that you'll never survive Miranda. So basically he's nagging her and doesn't have any confidence
in her abilities. Um, he keeps calling her Miranda girl instead of calling her by her name, hot, stripping her of her identity and individuality. Well. Also, to be fair, Miranda does that to her for most as well. True, but we're also you know, Miranda's framed as someone that we're not meant to like. At least while she's doing that, he says he like sees her in this beautiful gown,
and he says, oh, you're a vision. Thank god I saved your job, and she, to be fair, does challenge that and says, well, I figured a few things out on my own too, But it's a man taking credit for something you shouldn't take credit for her and taking credit for a woman's work. Basically, he's also offering her a way to get ahead in exchange for basically a sustained flirtation with him that we're led to believeable lead to sex. And ye he keeps saying like I'll introduce
you to you know, this editor or whatever. Every time a guy says that, bt dubbs, they're lying everything every time. Well, I just I just think about like my first year living here a lot and like every child who approaches you, and it's like, yeah, no, I know, like blah blah blah.
It's never true. They always know someone influential's cousin who they're on terrible terms with, Like awful news to be because I'm relying on that introduction the random man, but just like seeing it done in this particular way of like, yeah, I know an editor. I'm like interesting, what's their name? Like, how do you know them? I'm so fucking skeptical of everyone.
But and then he feels like she owes him for like the Harry Potter book favor, which is a kid how he oh he has access to that, but he has a friend who was a friend of a friend of a cover designer, which is not how any of that that whatever? Okays? Like, yeah, I was gaslighting J K Rowling a couple of years ago, so she loved her. She likes, Okay, here's how I think he did it. I think that he was gaslighting JK. Rowling and then
she was like, fuck you, I'm out of here. But she stayed logged into her Google drive on his computer and he never logged out, and so he has all of her documents. Maybe I think that he was performing the what's the unforgivable curse? That it makes it like mind controls you, not the crucial curse. I think that's the torture one. I forget what this curch is called her and like, yeah, basically like cursed her into giving him the manuscript. I think that if someone finds seven
how many horr cracks? Is it seven? Seven? If you find all seven hor cracks, is he gets normal colored hair? I actually would watch the film of like people trying to figure out how he got the manuscript and then they would explore it with via Your Guys series. I would watch that there isn't just one to detective and be like it was a bad lead. Got a super producer, Sophie,
thank you so much, says the imperious curse. So he was imperious cursing and okay, so finally the worst thing he does is that he they're in Paris, he kisses her. She keeps saying, after that acid exchange, Paris is pretty. He kisses her, she says no, I think three different times, and then he keeps pushing past the no keeps kissing her and implied like a no means yes, like like well I'm out of excuses, and he's like, thank goodness.
So then they keep kissing and it just shows a man pushing past the know, a woman being worn down, and the whole thing being framed as romantic rather than predatory, which she's happening. She does give consent, yes, and she even says like I've had too much to drink everything.
She lays out all the reasons why it's not a good idea, and with the movie, the movie makes her consent so that us as viewers don't think he's a fucking rate exactly right, exactly, and we see this all the fucking time, and this is yet another example of how I would have loved for that scene to end to be like because also they're in Paris. It's empty, there's no one in Paris in this movie, and so it's just like she I don't think the movie intensis.
I think they just couldn't afford extras this day. But like they're they're totally in the middle, Like she's drunk and alone in a strange city with no one around in the middle of the night, and so there's always that like fear and pressure on women to say yes because what is the like what if he gets angry
at being rejected and then you're physically harmed. They couldn't afford extras this day, but it was something that occurred to me, And it's still framed as like, Wow, she finally hooked up with the whole flesh, because then it cuts to the next morning and she's in his bed, presumably they've had sex, like and the movie frames the sex as consensual, and I think and I think they put her there so that she could discover that like he had the mock up of the new issue of
the magazine when Jacqueline becomes the editor. So it's like they put her in a situation where she probably didn't really want to have sex with him, but she did. But so that like there's two things that are happening, it can move a plot point and had said that like she discovers this, but also to that as viewers, maybe we feel a way about her stepping out on
Nate even though like they're technically broken up. Um, but like I think that even ten years ago, I was just like this is weird, Like I wasn't even mad at her or anything. I could care less about her and Nate at that point, right Nate who says, why do you women have so many begs? You get one bag, you put out your stuff in it, and then we got her, Adrian, thank you so much. It's she should just you know, maybe shop around for a worthy man
or no man or no man. I mean, the thing with with this genre is that it's still kind of subscribes to the like having it all, noss of second way feminism, of like saying like, no, she can have both, and and still holding that up as like in a best case scenario, this is what you'd have, and not presenting any sort of fulfillment as a person with anything but the completely happy career and home life, which, like you were saying, Amy is just like it is a
great ideal, but then it's you know, in practice, you just have to be working twice as hard. So even if you do have a successful career and a successful relationship, family life, whatever, very often you find yourself like feel completely hollow as a stretch so thin. Yeah, and then you can't and then you're like, Okay, I did what I was told, but now I feel nothing. Why is that? And and so you know we'll figure it out one of these days, we'll get it. Yeah, we need Oh,
here's what we need. We need a time turner, like in Harry Potter three where Hermione. You know she is going to all these different classes because she's traveling back through time so that she can have it all and do everything that she wants. So that's what we as women. That's how many more that's Harry Potter references? Would you like me to make? I mean, honestly, I'm good leaving it here. I see baltimorre it over here and not
wanting to me to, you know, succeed. That's that's Baltimort's thing. He doesn't want people to succeed. My favorite description of Baltimore subjectives ever, Baldi word like above all hates success. He wants to be the only successful one anyway. Baltimore little slit nosed icon do does anyone have anything else that they want to talk about before we wrap up? We've talked about everything I had. There's so much to talk about, so much. Well, does the movie pass the
Bechtel test? Yes, it does. Women talking about fashion, clothes, the magazine, et cetera. There are you know, some conversations about men, whether it's Nate or Simon or whoever. The conversations that do pass a lot of the time are and this isn't a criticism here or there, but they do tend to be about hyper feminine topics, which we see again and again and again. Yeah, where it's like, you know, that whole exchange about Emily Blunt's eating disorder
and how it's cute passes. And to be clear, it's there's nothing wrong, inherently wrong with talking about hyper feminine things. But because we pretty much only see that in movies where women are talking, they're only talking about either like very domestic things or very hyper feminine things, and are rarely talking about stuff that might be considered gender neutral or you know, there's no one's talking about science, but there's a lot of talk about work. Just done? Get
that done? How did you do this? Why aren't you doing this? And paper? I really love where is it if? Okay, what was it about? If only Andy used her wand to summon it with the echio paper, she would have oh dear, So anyway, okay, I just it's just not for me. I understand. Let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. This is another tricky one for me because
it is largely a female driven cast. It is a movie that at least starts to explore the professional lives of women and the sacrifices that maybe have to be made and different things like that. Female relationships are a huge part of the movie. But a lot of the time in this movie, the female relationships are not going very well. You know, we see this like archetypal successful career woman who is very difficult to be around. You know. There's the weird comments about wait all the time. And
body type. There's almost no diversity in terms of body type and race. It's that weird New York city where only white people live. There's just all kinds of problems with this movie. So I'm going to give it. I'm timpted to give it a too, because I think it's it feels like it has its heart set in the right place for two thousand's six. But we've progressed a little bit as a society since then. Um so it feels not so progressive today. But I think for the time,
it was, you know, attempting to do something. So I'll give it a two and I'll give both of my nipples to Meryl Street. Wow. Brian sub versa. I was I was thinking too as well for this. Uh yeah, I agree with you that the movie, for all of its failings and and sort of I mean, it's weird, there's not a uh there's very few topics I feel like this movie completely fails. It's just that there's a lot of gray area where it is maybe skewing on the side of gray area that I agree with less.
But it is one of the few movies that you're like, oh yeah, this is definitely a product of its time that I don't think is like unwatchable. I think it's still like a really fun movie. I'll watch it again. It's trying to do a good thing. It's not quite getting in there, but you know, we'll feel that way about almost any movie made ten years ago, um, which hopefully means the world is moving forward, but you know, we live in an active hell, so you know, um yeah,
my mate. Take away from this viewing was the anti character and like how inconclusive the journey is and and and how frustrating it is to see young women with strong opinions have those opinions neutralized over the course of a movie. I don't love it, but I give it. I give it two stars, and I'm giving them to littles, so fucking kill me. Two nipples, and I'm giving the nipples, which are star shaped pasties in this case to Tracy
Tom's who God damn it someday. I mean, she was incredible and Rent just like swatch her and Rent but Rent is don't say it. Rent is good. Okay. Well, I'm like Sadden that you guys only giving it a pair of nipples because I was sitting here and I'm like, I think this is a solid, like three and a half big nipples for me, and I think a lot
of it's Titan nostalgia. How much I just love the movie, and that happens on this podcast, and it's just like a fun movie to watch, and I just started really thinking critically about because I knew I was going to do this podcast, you know. But even for all its troubles,
I just love it. And yeah, I just love and I love even even though it's like trying to talk shit about fashion or like consumerism and how all of that could be like frivolous, it's still glamorizing in such a cute way that I mean, Andy wears some questionable things that I don't even think we're in fashion then, but it's fun to see like how they thought what
was fashionable then. And uh. And I think that the glossiness of the film is something that making it beautiful to look at and fun to watch, while also showing a woman in power who even though we're supposed to be told is like not a good person, but she's still really competent in doing her job. Well. Uh, and it's portrayed by Meryl Street. Is such a good thing, you know. I think that like to have that piece
of art in the world. I just appreciated it. Yeah, Like I definitely don't understand why they're people of color in it, why there aren't more queer people in it in the world of fashion. Yeah, that's yeah, I just I don't understand why. You know, there are like lots of more real world the stuff that isn't like being insinuated in the world with a devil worse product. But you know, it's it's a film whatever. But I think that like storytelling could have been done just you know,
been more effective. And there are like really fucked up portrayals of things that are happening, especially with the Simon Baker character. But I just overlook that ship because I like, I Hello, I'm a person who watches. The montage is for fun, Like I love the folly in the montage is like I love the fully of the of the purses and the coats, you know, of them hitting the desk. Yeah, I like. I like track the montage of her makeover where she goes through all the different outfits. I like this.
I'm like, this is filmed in the day. Let's look at all the inconsistencies of how it was, like how we can track that it was, Like, I love watch. I think it's because I love watching like the visuals of this movie. So you're allowed. Yeah, I mean, there's no there's no wrong answers. There's truly not. We're a steel Like I'm being defensive. I'm just telling you why I love. Yeah. Of course we're also extremely jaded, and I mean I also gave writers of The Lost Dark
zero nipples, and I still deeply love that movie. So you know, it's it's a journey that we're all on. So I get one of my nipples to the fully artist. If you're listening, hit me up. They're biggest fan. Uh and definitely a nipple to Miss Meryl. A nipple to Lily, who was like, you're saying criminally underused because her joy
at receiving that hideous mark shake comes back. Was like, I was like, man, that bag is ugly, but you love it, so I love it and Oscar worthy performance trash and then I have a nipple to have a nipple to the scene that I want to shout out my to my friend Lara, she pointed out to me, there's a scene where she comes in and he comes into her apartment and she I think she just got out of the shower and she's wearing like a bra and a tank top and then she puts another tank
top over it, so pretty over it. So shout out to all that layering of tanktops for no reason, I didn't notice the tank top on a tank top. I get that possibly up to it. I don't know either anybody knows behind the scenes info on that. So so that half a nipple goes out to my friend Laura, who pointed out very good. Well, Amy, thank you so much for being here, Thank you for having me talking to us for hours? Um, what would you like to plug? Where can people find you online? You can find me
online on the Twitter. My account is Amy A Doisy. It's spelled A M y A d o y z i E. It's like a graversial name I made up when I was a punk kid. I also have a website that has like literary event things that I hear me now and then. Uh. It's called by Amy lamb dot com like a byeline no spaces because I write fiction. Um right now, I'm in school and working on a
novel about like a queer frontier pioneer story. Very cool, yes, and I'm writing it as a novel, but one day I want to see it made into a thing I can watch. Well, I'm a screenwriter, so that I could like adopt it. Asking about it on the back better get Hella nipples be like, yes, would that not be cool? I'm already like projecting it'll be like it happen. Well, you can follow the Bechtel Cast on social media across
all the platforms at Bechtel Cast. You can go to our you can join our patreon ak ur Matreon, which is five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes every single month, plus our whole backlog of episodes you get access to that. You can check out our t public store, where there's always a lot of fun designs, and then get a t public dot com slash the backdel Cast. There's all sorts of ship you can do on the internet. Right and review us on iTunes?
Does anyone ever? Sometimes people do that. Yeah, it helps us out. Like every time the podcast is like do it, I'm like, oh God, do that? But you should? You should and be better. I hope you guys get some like thick caveata boys. Unfortunately, if they also have flesh colored hair, they will not like us. It's complex in it, it's really complicated. But anyway, thanks again for for being here. What a time we've had, And just a reminder that
the devil does wear products. To quote the movie, it does alright by I