The Dark Knight with Pallavi Gunalan

doing it for years at this point. Wild It's true, and we use the Bechdel test and we're heard of it, which is a media metric developed by cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Ever heard of her? Also sometimes done as the Bechdel Wallace test, which we always forget to say. We're done with Wallace erature over here? Yeah, um, but yeah. The Bechtel test, if you don't know, is a media metric that requires there be a scene that includes two named female identa find characters who talked to each other about

something other than man. Most of the biggest franchises that have ever been released don't passes. Wait can we do a test run of it? Let's do it, Hey, Jamie, Caitlin, why so? Serious, K, maybe just need to go back on well putrin and really start evaluating my options. Sure, I've been thinking about going back to therapy. Wow, good for you. I should too. Uh. The reason I don't like my current therapist would break the test. Okay, so let's not talk about it. Yeah, yeah, all right, Well

that's pretty much passed the BEC test. Male therapist. I can't do it. I don't know what it is. Yeah. They I've always struggled with them. He's just like he's he's so smart, but he's also like, what are you talking about? And like this is this isn't gonna work anyways. Uh, I'm very excited to talk about I think probably one of the most famous movies of our time, I mean iconique. It is, yes, and I think we can all agree a feminist texts, feminist masterpiece. Yes, yes, yes, womanhood has

changed because of this. Oh yes. But before we dive in, let's introduce our guests. She is a hilarious comedian. She's one of the co hosts of Facial Recognition Comedy. It's Paula Vignolin. Thanks for having me. I also don't like mail therapist. I it sucks. He like saved my life, and then I wanted to get rid of him right away. I felt really bad. Anyways, it's been three years and I'm a coward. God fun good stuff. So we're talking

about the Dark Knight. Yes she wasn't eight Christopher Nolan, the second installment of the Dark Knight trilogy, but I feel like the most famous and enduring installment. Agree, Paul V. What is your history your relationship with this film? Okay, thank you so much for asking. I love Batman. Batman's

my favorite. I love Batman the animated series the best, and then this movie the next Oay, I watched this movie and uh, there's a part in it where the Joker is just sticking his head out of a window and literally in the in the theater, the audience just erupted an applause for this villain. And I did too, like we were all like so excited for him. And I love movies and books like that where it takes like really horrible people and it like makes you up. People.

I mean, people love this. I mean there's like it's it's uh sad, very sad. Because I think that this movie was released posthumously for Heath Ledger and it was his greatest role. Yeah. So, I mean everything's lined up for people to be addicted to the Joker, and he's so good. It's amazing. Say what you will, whether it's a fun this text or not, his performance is so so good. I mean I try to model my comedy after his jokes. Yes, he's also an iconic comedian because

that's where my pencil went. All of our writing. Uniontemps is what happened. They're just blood everywhere, you know. But yeah, I really love this movie and it was like my favorite movie for a while. A lot of my favorite movies are so misogynous and I don't know, like same, this is a huge problem of life. Well, Mad Max wasn't it was. I think the reason that I loved it was because it was feminist road or mat Max

Fury Road. Yeah, I love that movie. And I also really loved Fight Club, and I think that I'm not allowed to say that on Twitter. We've all been there, We've all gone through the fight Club phase. I mean it's just like, yeah, live and learn, baby. I mean, I think my most problematic faive of like these like toxic male franchises is the Indiana Jones series, which means I still love it, Like we don't eat monkey Brains.

Temple of Doom is the worst one. It is. Yeah, so but Last Crusade is a boatload of fun and yet it's so bad and it's wild. Yeah, I think The Dark Knight is that movie for a lot of people. What's your experience with the Cabin? I saw it in the theater, I think probably more than once. I think I maybe saw it a couple of times in theaters, and then I promptly bought it on DVD. I watched that. I also like Batman Begins a lot, And I think this might sound wild to say, but I think I

like Batman Begins better. And I only realized this upon rewatching both of them to prep for this episode. I was like, Oh, there's like thirty minutes at the beginning of Dark Knight and thirty minutes at the end where it's like either hard to follow or kind of boring or like a climactic, But that Man Begins is like a streamline like story all the way through with like rising tension, and it's just like, I don't know, and I like an origin story. Arrest me. It's whatever, you're

in jail. No one's arguing for The Dark Knight, Rice is no, No, that was actually filmed. I went to Carnegie Mellon and part of that was filmed on one of the buildings, like the part where the steps I did. I did microscopy and I had classes in that building. Isn't the football stadium that's in that movie? Also the Steelers? Yeah, I thought anyway wild So, yeah, I love this movie. Um, I haven't revisited it though in probably like five years or so. Yeah, Jamie, what about you? I love this

movie too. I've never been a superhero person, as loyal fans of the show will know, but I feel like this movie came out when I was in high school, and it just like everybody saw it. I hadn't seen. I remember seeing this movie and then having to go back and watch Batman Begins because I hadn't had any

interest in it. And then I mean, yeah, I've seen I think I've seen the full trilogy twice, but I've seen this movie probably five or six times because it's I don't know, but yeah, it's it's it's the one that people tell you to watch over and over, and it's the one that every toxic boyfriend makes you watch with him. So I've I've seen this movie a bunch.

I always really enjoy it. Also had and revisited it in at least five years, and you know, a lot to discuss, certainly fridge, fridge, fridge, much fridging, Okay, fridging. So that's like when let's oh, yeah, yeah, we'll get there. So should I just do the recap? This movie is very long. I'll make this as quick as possible. It is two and a half hours anyway, So we open the Joker is robbing a mob bank. He's killing his

criminal buddies were kind of thing the process. It evokes Spider Man too, when Alfred Molline is wearing the fedora at the bank right and while mcale is there and Alpha Willina is like throwing bags of coin much Goofi or movie. It's in a different tone. It is very goody. Then we cut to Batman. He stops this scarecrow because I guess he forgot to do that, and Batman begins, I don't know, uh, and then Batman throws a dog. There was a lot of dog throwing animals, just like,

who whose dog is this? I mean, rott Wiler's the representation of rott Wiler specifically in this movie is not positive anyway. So um, Meanwhile, there's a new district attorney in town, Harvey Dent. He is dating Bruce Wayne's love interest, Rachel Dawes, who were just like, oh it's Maggie Jillenhall. Now it's no longer Katy Homes. We'll take whatever scientology gives us, right scientology give it, and to take it away. And Bruce Wayne is jealous because he wants to kiss

Rachel um Gordon Lieutenant Gordon, feminist icon Gary old Banks. Yeah, there's a whole laundry list of like problematic men cast in this movie. So he needs Dent's approval to get warrants to search, and I guess sees these mob banks. Meanwhile, Joker shows up to a mob meeting and they're all trying to figure out how to keep their money safe. And the Jokers like, oh, you should pay me to kill Batman. And the mob doesn't like Joker, but he is wacky and unhinged. Sonny, He's silly and and he

makes his own clothes. He's like that, so raven in that way, and the only character I think of when they think of someone who makes her own clothes. She's a style. It was awesome anyways, but so Joker is scary, so they're like, oh, well, I guess we gotta do what he says. And then there's this guy, Mr. Law who does all the bookkeeping for the Mob. So Batman goes to Hong Kong and brings him back to Gotham, and Dent and Rachel are like, you're in big trouble.

Mr so Loud gives up all the names of the Mob boys so that Harvey Dent can put them away in jail. My boys back at it again. Joker does not like that this happened, so he's like, hey, Batman, take off your mask and show yourself. And every day that you don't do this, I will kill people. Meanwhile, Bruce Wayne throws a fundraiser for Harvey Dent because he wants Dent to be the new like face of hope

or justice, tipping the scale with candidates you know. Well, well, he wants this because he basically wants to retire from being Batman so that he can kiss Rachel because in the first movie she's like, while you're still Batman, we can't beat together. So Joker shows up to the fundraiser to go after Dent, and this is after he has killed the police commissioner and the judge who sentenced all

of the mob boys. Uh So Batman fights him off and then Joker tries to kill the mayor, but Gordon takes the bullet for him during this parade and Gordon dies or does he forgot that this happened? Exhausting because then they have to go to his wife and be like him dead, and then they go back to his wife say him fine, well at least they got, you know, some of his wife in there. That's like a third of women, that's true. It's uh yeah, women weeping over

Gary Oldman's death, So you know it's fiction. So Joker names Rachel Dawes as his next victim, and Batman doesn't want any more blood us on his hands, and so he decides to reveal himself and the hopes that Joker will stop killing people. But before he can do this, Harvey Dent steps up and he's like, I'm the Batman, and his reasoning for this is that when the Joker attacks again, the real Batman will be able to like swoop in and take him down. So as they're getting

Harvey Dent to safety or they've arrested him. I'm not sure they're transporting him somewhere. The Joker shows up and there's this big chase scene which is very fun. Shortly after that is the scene where he's like his head is out the window and the wind is in his hair and he's just like ah, the iconic yeah. But Batman shows up to stop the Joker, and then we find out that Gordon is not dead after all, and he arrests and locks up the Joker and then gets

promoted to commissioner. Yea for him, problematic men in charge, Hurrah, and the Joker claps for him. This is a little Joker clap. It was like he does Nancy Pelosi clap, like I had his time in every way. But Joker has already kidnapped Dent and Rachel or he's had his goons do it, and he put he's put them in two different locations, and Batman has to choose who he's

going to go save, so he goes after Rachel. He shows up there at the address and Harvey is where Joker said that Rachel would be, So explosions go off, Rachel dies and then half of Harvey's face gets burned off and then he becomes to face and he's bad. Now he's upset, he's got he's got a new look. You gotta glow up new at it or a glow down, a lit up, and it's so gruesome. It is like he would be dead. I don't understand how he's still alive. I remember the first time seeing that in theaters and

being like I was. It was like fifteen, but I was like this scared graphic like and that same thing happened in like Breaking Bad. When did you go to see Breaking Bad? I stopped after like four seasons, like one of the major bad guys, like who's he's half his face is blown off, but he just like dies, right,

that's what happens. But he but he dies like he like still walks outside and then falls down and you're like your face is gone right wild Anyway, Harvey Dent is so strong and everyone loves him, so he survives and becomes two face, and then Joker blows up a hospital because Batman still has not revealed himself, and then

his next target are these two fairies. One is full of prisoners and one is full of civilians and both are full of explosion the classic trolley probably love it doesn't that happen in Spiderman too, that happens in most of but that also like they just had that with Rachel and Dent. They were like pick your poison, right, Yeah, he just did that, right, So it's like a new move, babe. Um. And he's doing this social experiment to see if they will blow each other up, these two boats. And he

didn't just do that. What did not pick up on that? It's more people and it's very obvious bad guys. Yeah, it's like a from Trolley problem too big. Okay, this didn't work the first time I tried it. Let's make it big. He's like, let's raise the stakes, let's you know, escalate. So Dent meanwhile is going after the crooked cops who sold him and Rachel out and he's killing them. And then Batman finds Joker via this like crazy surveillance machine.

And I said, yeah, there's some really weird stuff glorified in this movie, Like thank god the n s A Was spying on everyone, or we wouldn't have been able to find Mr Joke. Yeah, yea, And the boats don't blow each other up. And then the jokers like, hey, wait a minute, I thought that would work. And then he's caught. But there's a whole thing after this. H Then Harvey Dent has kidnapped Gordon's family because I guess like Gordon was okay with having crooked cops in his

unit something like that. I don't know, and scary oldman, You're just like, it's probably I don't know, right, I don't know. He's supposed to be good. He's supposed to be good. And then Batman shows up once again and saves the day. Dent gets killed, but they all have to pretend like he was still good since he was like Gotham's White Knight. So Gotham's Dark Night, that's the name by the movie, is going to take the fault for dense crimes because something about a hero that we

have but we need, but we deserve it. It's the one we deserve but not the one we need right now. It's weird. I like people think it should be flipped, didn't stuff. I don't know. I know, I've seen it as a back tattoo. Let's take a quick break and then we'll jump into the discussion and we're back man I I was thinking a lot about a friend of the cast, Whitmer Thomas. He does like a I was just thinking of his joker bit for most of this movie. Oh, I either haven't seen it or haven't seen it in

a while, because I don't really remember it. They talked about it a lot on on his podcast American Arts and Culture Reviews. I wanted to shout that out at the top because I was thinking about it consistently throughout thinking about a man's work. Jamie, Okay, listen, I I'm very problematic, and I'm honestly canceled. I blame her male therapist. He probably accepting you. Another Christopher Nolan there? Okay, Christopher.

Can we talk abut Christopher Nolan right at the top because he has some problems he I'm a fan of his work generally, he has a major issue with Uh. Well, let's talk about fridging the concept of fridging, so I have some info here, women in refrigerators. It was actually, oh, it's exactly what it sounds like. It's literally exactly what it sounds um. I think we first talked about this in an episode are Laura Croft episode with Danny Fernandez. Um. So way back in the day, but for a refresher.

It was originally a website created in nine by a group of feminist comic book fans that list examples of the comic book trope whereby female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered, sometimes to stimulate protective traits as a plot device intended to move a male character story arc forward.

So Gayle Simone is generally the woman credited with this, and it basically comes from do you have the information of the reason it's called fridging is because of a specific thick comic book plot where a wife or girlfriend is killed and literally stuffed in a fridge to motivate the man. I don't know the specific source of that, so if we have any fans who know, please, I don't know the specific like comic book being referenced, but

that's why it's called fridging. But now it's kind of just shorthand for killing off a female character, usually a wife, a girlfriend, loving, killing off, kidnapping, brutalizing in some way to motivate and to move the story forward, which this movie is very guilty as several times, but also Christopher Nolan's work in general is guilty of if we're thinking of his filmography, where like you start with Memento, which is he's trying his wife. That movie is his wife,

Inception is his wife. Batman the Dark Knight is his girlfriend. There, Like, it is such a consistent pattern in his work that, from what I could tell, the first time in his entire filmography, the first time that doesn't happen is, um, what's the movie about space? Oh, Interstellar, that's the first movie where someone isn't fridged. There's no fridges there. No, that's why there's nowhere to put women in Spaceifically, He was just like, well, it doesn't seem to be an option,

but it is. I mean, it's I don't want to like, I mean, it's by no means a reason to knock his work as a whole, But it is interesting to like see how long it takes for Ohtour filmmakers like Christopher Nolan to pick up on or get enough blowback of, like you can't this is so lazy and shitty, and you know right, because the implications of fridging, I mean there's many of them. It's that a woman, first of all, it means we have to usually see a woman being

brutalized on screen. The implication is that a woman is much weaker than her male counterparts, and then it is not as important to the story, right, just Damsel in distress. Right, But like just turned up to an eleven and that the movie I was forgetting about was The Prestige, where Hugh Jackman's assistant wife dies and then the story basically starts. Um, So The Dark Knight is not an exception to this rule. Chris Nolan made Interstellar, which I've never seen, but it's amazing.

People love it. It's because they actually do black holes right, Like it's the first time I've ever seen science in a movie accurately. It's because Kip Thorn, who won the Nobel Prize in physics, like consulted and they listened to him. That's amazing. We should mention that Paula v is a woman in stem I need to go to school. But yeah, this is the this, this is a movie where it happens. And then, just to extend a little, it doesn't happen an Interstellar, And then there's no women in that Boy

Island movie he made. Are you happy? Are you happy? Now? There's no fridging because there's no women, there's no fridges in space, there's no women on the island. He's like Harry Styles happy. So yes, there is. That's my comment on Chris Nolan as it took he figured it out for exactly one movie. Yeah, and it's not this one. It is not this one because it does certainly happen a lot. So we have essentially one main female character

in this movie. We have a couple of secondary characters, but as far as the main one who still doesn't get that much screen time, it is Rachel Dawes. She is framed as the love interest of two different men, so another you know, like female character put into like

a love triangle situation. But it's crazy that she's the love interest of two men and they both still can't tell that she's not Katie Holmes, you know what I mean, Like they're so in love with her, like no, I'm just in love with the idea of you, Micky Jillian hall Man. She does her best with what she's given here. I like her a lot. Yeah I like her too. But yeah, so just to continue this this fridging damseling conversation. Um, it first happens during the fundraising party that Bruce Wayne

throws for Harvey Denton. The Joker shows up, he threatens her, kind of has a knife to her face. He's telling a story about his wife, but I think his wife is fake in which she's damseling her too. Write yeah, it's fictional his wife. So Batman comes in and saves her by like punching the Joker in the face. I just think it's funny that the reason she's put in that situation where he like grabs a knife and puts it to her face is because he's like threatening an

old man. And she's like, okay, knock it off. Oh no. He's like, oh you got a little fight, and yeah, She's like damn, sounds like I'm scared. A few minutes later, Joker grabs her again, holds a gun to her head, and then drops her out of a window, and then Batman has to dive after her and save her. In Yeah. Also, I feel like that's not how gravity works. But okay, right, he's he has his suit. His acceleration due to gravity in his Batman suit is like faster than normal because

of all of his science science. Yeah, I'm not a woman in stem, but I feel like that's how that works. Then she gets damseled again like for the third and finale, it's a game where the Joker's goons we've understood to have kidnapped her, put her in this warehouse full of explosives, and then she is killed when the explosives go off. Right, this is I mean, there's a lot written about this character, um,

from what my research indicates. And I'm not a bat head, so simply go off in the comments if I'm wrong. But she she's one of the only characters in this film franchise that was added for the movie. Um, she is not a character that appears here to this film franchise, So she was not in the comics or anything like that. He isn't interesting. There's there's a number of other I mean,

I think they appear in other Batman movies. There's a number of other Batman girlfriends Vick, even from the Tim Burton Batman I remember that, which we did cover many many moons ago. I know it's wild one of the first episodes. Um, but yeah, she she doesn't appear in the comic books originally, and I feel like that is kind of so it's not even an adaptation problem. Which I think some of the issues with this movie kind of ore and all comic book movies sort of come

up against that. But Rachel that that doesn't seem to actually apply to her, So it's kind of like even more obnoxious that the screenwriters just fucked up. The screenwriters fridged her, and I would argue she has some merry suit qualities. Uh, and there's just I don't know, like she's just kind of like a go to like every trope I don't I like, well, I don't have a

handle on who she is at all. Really. I also think it's like crazy that like she she's wavering on like who she wants to be with, and she's painted like she kisses Bruce Wayne when she's with Harvey, so then it's like and then she's like sacrificed, so like you don't even get to like her as much as you want to. Well that's I have a theory about that, And I don't know if anyone else has read it this way, but I feel like there's a read of it where the movie feels justified in killing her because

she doesn't choose, because she doesn't she was going to leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah, where it's like she's made to seem like a little bit less lovable before she even though it's like objectively she's making the right I mean, if you if she, I mean, if if we were really she wouldn't choose either of them. I haven't. I have two things I have. I have a joke about how Batman's the o g funck Boy because because he's like, listen, I gotta be a playboy billionaire during the day. It's part of my

cover up. It's my guys. And then Superman and Spiderman are like we're in monogamous relationships and we're got a newspaper what So I just think it's like it's like she she doesn't pick the funk boy, and then it's punished for it. And then and then also like I think it's so funny, like not funny, but it's like ironic. I don't know when she she's like blown up in the middle of a sentence, like she gets interrupted. It's

more realistic by a bomb. Yeah, and then Harvey is like screaming at her instead of hearing her last words, like knowing you know what I mean. It's very emotional that one. It's I feel Rachel. I think in general deserves better. We do know what her job is. I feel like it is almost used to just justify her being around Harvey. Harvey and and by extension sort of Bruce, because we don't really see her like do much for

her job. She's the assistant d A, so arguably she's a villain to and then she's also fucking the d A, right, which is appropriate. Yeah, yeah, well that's because like, so we know what she does for a living. At least we get that at least you know, and she's good at it. I have no idea, but she was on time when Harvey wasn't. Okay, so in that scene that

this is towards the beginning. In this scene, she's waiting for this trial to begin there in the courtroom and then like Harvey shows up and he's like, son, and were you worried you might have to like do this without me? And she's like, I know these briefs backwards and he's like, well, I don't give a funk, I'm gonna do it anyway. This is nice. He yeah, I mean it's she There are moments that like but it's like we don't really see that really come into play

very much like we see. It's nice to see her be like, Okay, she is clearly good at her job, but like that's never really plot relevant. The fact that she's got at her job is and we still don't really even see her do her job at any point. It's like the bare minimum of like describing who she is and where she is. I appreciate the gesture, but I don't know. She could kind of do anything in

the movie wouldn't change us. And also this whole time, this was the first time where I was like, and someone I tweeted about something about Batman and someone was just like, Oh, wouldn't it be better if like Batman and Tony Stark simply paid their taxes. They would probably be doing the world a lot more good if they just didn't. I mean, they're probably getting huge tax breaks

because it's like all their corporations all that stuff. That's like I used to think that, like Batman was my favorite superhero too, but now I'm realizing he like sucks. Like there's because there's so much discussion about like class and poverty and how it's causing all this crime and Gotham.

This is happens a little bit more in Batman begins, but it's like you're a gazillionaire if you just redistribute your wealth instead of like cause playing as a bat and like stopped cosplaying Halloween animals and do you and pay your taxes? Are you guys looking to see an action movie starring Bill Gates? I mean that's the hero that we deserted. You saw that video of him. Have you guys seen that video with him jumping over the rolly chair. He could be a superhero. He might be harrd.

I have no idea. All billionaires are scary to me. Um, but it does feel like a very like Batman could not be written now and be such a sympathetic I feel like with the comparison to Bill Gates, I think he falls more into like Elon Musk's territory because he's pushing like technology and stuff and so like as a scientists an engergineer, I feel like because people were like, Elon, why don't you just like fix flint instead of going to space And I'm like, yeah, okay, don't throw your

car into space, that's just space trash, and don't throw your fridge in a space got but will end up in there. Yeah, don't fridge your fridge. Yeah wait, but I'm gonna watch Bill Gates jump over this chair. But but I feel like, you know, there's a need and it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive for all these things to happen. But let's watch Bill Gates. Oh my god, so oh yo, he got jump. I would watch that movie. We'll post that little YouTube clip on our Twitter. It's

a lot anyways. Yeah, I mean, it's it's I do. I do mean it as like a joke, but just like the idea of like presenting a billionaire as like the superhero to end all other superheroes, it feels like a very particular you know, there's a there's a time where that like American dreaming stuff can succeed. And I feel like, now it's maybe not that definitely. Also, did anyone feel like Christian Bales Bruce Wayne is just Christian

Bale's Patrick Bateman. Like they act the exact same to me, and they look the exact same because they're Christian Bale, but like but he's I mean, they're even like dressed and styled the same way, Like their hair is the same, Like they look identical and they act identical. I was thinking of the scene towards the beginning where he comes in with like the ballerina and he's like, let's put these tables together, and Harveard Dens like, I don't think

they'll allow us, and he's like they should. I own this, and it's like, I feel like that is such a Patrick Bateman thing. I don't know anyway, but I think, oh, yeah, his character of Bruce Wayne. You're saying, yes, oh, I see, maybe. Yeah. When he's Bruce Wayne, he is being Patrick Bateman. When he's Batman, he's like yeah, but yeah, his his persane to me read a lot like Patrick Bateman, but more

importantly and more relevant. Part of Bruce Wayne's persona when he's not Batman and when he's like, you know, being his whatever, regular self, part of that persona is to treat women like objects. Yeah, you touched on this a little bit already, but like he rolls into Harveydn's fundraiser with like three women on his arm. The ballet has to be canceled because he takes the entire like ballet full of dancers onto his yacht. Although that ballet Areina

Natasha is my favorite character in the movie. She's smart. I love what she was saying about Vigilantes is there that that doesn't count because there were two dudes in there, but like she is talking about that is that's when two women meet. Like I don't know any other scene where two women meet and talk. There's one other that is wild. But yeah, that I liked. I liked it that. I mean, she's in it for literally forty five seconds.

Someone was like, Natasha, are you the Prima? And then she like but then Batman cuts her off, like you're like she was talking, she gets in her everyone's getting interrupted in this movie, all the women are, and then she's clearly only there because Bruce Wayne brought her to be like, see Rachel, I have a date too. I go on dates. I have a girl. Lady of the Twisted. She's cool and she's like Batman with the like everyone's like, she's like, why are we relying on this like cosplayer

to save the world? And she like kind of criticizes Harvey as the d a for counting on a Batman to do his job for him, and you're like, oh, yeah, outside of this world, that would seem very irrational. Um so I just I was here for Natasha. I was hoping she'd come back, but she did not know she didn't, but shout out to her. Um. One last thing on the fridging conversation. Gordon's his wife and children also get

damnse old and fridged, essentially by Harvey Dent at the end. Also, Gordon's son gets is credited with the name Gordon's daughter is not fun. That's because he said he loved her more. That's the only reason he loved the boy more. And so you're like, oh, so that's Jimmy cool upsetting, but yeah, his his daughter is not credited even at the end of the movie with a name, and she doesn't have

any lines. I think the little boy at least like he asks about Batman when Batman runs away, um, and then you can tell that it's going to be the little kid that's excited about the superhero or whatever. But the little girl was never like what the funk? Dad? You love him more than me? Fuck you. That's not going to haunt their relationships for decades. She's going to have to go to a male fair based after this. Okay, first of all, that hurts just a quick thing on

two face. Whenever he says, I make my own luck. I'm like Jack Dawson Titan. Okay, well that's what cal Hockley says, right, He's like, I make my own Yeah. It's like, oh, I mean Aaron Eckhart, but what about Billy Zane. Billy zane visibility is very low in this extreme said an all time low. They don't even reference him and Aaron eck cart Man. Aarona cart is so weird because he can be so good in movies and also so bad. Really he well, Frankenstein, you gotta check

out I Frankenstein. It's the movie of my life. It's so much. It's he plays sexy Frankenstein. Well, I didn't he do that in this movie too, which is I patch him up. It's the opposite of it's even I mean, he can play this exact role very well or terribly. I think he did. I think he did a good job of transitioning to like he played both characters pretty well. I think that they didn't give him enough time to like transition or whatever, but it like it still was

pretty good in this movie at least. I like his performance in this movie a lot. Yeah, I just like rewatching it this time. I was like they went too overboard with his face, like what it looks like in the comics. I don't know, I really like it, and I like it because it also gives him that grim like the Joker like and they all have like these

like smiles, permanent but scary ones. Yeah, but also like in these movies, like superhero movies are supposed to be like ridiculous, you know, like you go in like knowing that fucking gravity doesn't work for Batman or that like his face can be blown off and he'll still survive. Like I guess, well, was it Tommy Lee Jones who who plays two Face in the earlier Batman and like he just has like a bunch of scars on his face. I'm like, that is, you know, still a bit gruesome.

But you know, yeah, I liked I like that they went all the way with it because I feel like this is like gritty Batman. This is the grit gritty shout out to queer and feminist icon gritty. Sure, but this is like there and I feel like all movies were trying to be like this for a while, where they're like it's very dark read but this is this is this is okay. With a lot of thoughts about this.

This is exactly what Batman the Animated Series did. Like this is how it shifted Batman and all of these other superhero things that tried to emulate them after Batman the Animated series, like the even the way that they like animated it was on like ar paper and they's like painted light on top of that, and it was like the grittiness that came in. So after the animated series is when all of these things shifted. Before it

was like more silly. There was nipples on the suit, which I but and then like Batman the Animated Series was also responsible for the two voices of Batman Kevin Connelly or whatever. Yeah, and for like like the crazy laugh and yeah, and then all of these other superhero movies were like we're going to make this darker now, got it? Yeah? Alright, good to know, except for like the Flash is still fun just like I just go real fast. But like in every movie here, I mean,

in this movie it works super well. Like it it makes sense that every superhero movie was trying to be this for a while. And shout out to Hans Zimmer for the soundtrack. What a good score. It's such a good score. We got to take a quick break, but we will come right back. We're back. Yeah, there's a few other female characters in this movie. There are well,

can we talk about Ramirez? But I also want to talk about the representation of people of color in this movie because I think that will kind of nicely transition because the only people of color in the movie are bad guys, criminals, people in the mob, villains, or people who have been incarcerated. There were there was a cop that was killed. Oh oh, the commissioner. No, no, there was a cop that was like, hey, what are you doing here? And then he got shot in the face

by Joker. There's that one. Come on, There's like there's a couple law enforcement officers too. Of course, there's also Morgan Freeman, who is an ally to Bruce Wayne and Batman, I mean ally to a billionaire. Love it because he was like, he had some ethics. Definitely, he did hate the n S A machine, so that was good. But he is on the list of bad people I r L, which we will get to. Um fuk, I forget all of them. There's too many, so hard to keep jack

of um. But the majority of people of color, you see in the movie are framed as being bad guys. And then one of the other female characters that we get to meet is Detective Ramirez. She seems good, she seems like a good person, but then she turns out to be traitors because she sold out Rachel to the Joker in his Goons. She is, I mean, and again it's like, we don't have really the context of how this character is portrayed in the comics books. And I

think she is in the comic books. Yeah, that's hard. The main thing with Ramire says like it took They don't say her name until she's been on screen a couple of times, and so that was I don't I mean, she's probably in Batman Begins as well, but I'm like, I have no fucking clue what this character's name is. And then it's like the third or fourth time she's in the movie for a couple of seconds, someone says, this is Anna Ramirez. You're like, oh, great, thank you.

I appreciate that. I mean, she ended up being duplicit as. And one of the times that this movie sort of passes the vital test is when Anna Ramirez is like being she's being held at gunpoint by Aaron at Card and she calls his wife. It's a mind funk of a pass. Yeah, she's being held at gunpoint by Aaron at Card, but it does take a good pass. Uh yeah. But she's talking about Oh, she's just trying to get them out of the house or whatever. She has called

um Barbara who is named Gordon, Um, Gordon's wife. Um. Yeah. Ramires is like, oh, you gotta get away. We can't trust those cops go to this address, blah blah. So although she she keeps saying like, he wants you to do this, he wants you to go here. So yeah about Gordon, Yeah yeah, I had I had one two

line exchange in that conversation passing. But either way, it's a wild It's it's a wild reveal that you're like, oh, she's being held at gunpoint, right, I don't know if this happens in the comic books at very least appreciated that her betrayal is not irrational and there is a reason that she's doing it. We like learned that her mother is sick in the hospital and she's given her little trolley choice of like do I save my mother

or do I kind of sell out this family. So at very least I feel like she's not so underwritten that you're just like, oh, she's just bad, like you do understand why she's motivating. Yeah, but it still means that the I think the one woman of color in the entire movie is made to be presented in such a way where the audience then hates her. Well, you don't hate her that, right, it's but not a not a ethical person in the way that all these men who have to like stand up for what they believe

in our right and make the right decision. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, there's definitely I mean again a Christopher Noland things just like they're they're very white movies, and so when people of color are portrayed in certain ways, it's like there's no one really to compare it to.

And but it's interesting because like at so many points in this movie, the jokers like make a decision, picked the person you want to kill, right, and she had that choice too with her mom versus uh like everybody

else basically. But it's interesting that like right before that, the convict like through the thing out the window because he was a person of color who also had the decision where like he would be killed, um, and so it's like it's it also is like a power play, like with convicts versus you know, police officers and like class stuff. So I think like at least they have that,

that's true. I mean the on the two ferries, we have the like all the incarcerated people, and like the guy who's like, I'm gonna do what why would you should have done ten minutes ago? And he throws the detonator out the window. And then meanwhile on each other book takes it from a white police police officer. So the police officer gave it to him thinking that he was going to blow up the other boat. And you see the failure in the police officers ethics and the

rise of this convicts, right. And then on the other boat is all the civilians and then there's like one white guy in particular who's like, let's kill him. They made their choice, their murderers. And then even he can't go through with it, but like and then everyone around him is disappointed that he can't go through with it. But everyone on the convicts boat, like the group of people he's like friends with or whatever, like go to

protect him. Like if you see he like walks back and then like all of his black friends like surround him and are like, yeah, this is it. My theory is that everyone on the civilian boat is actually like guilty of insider trading, but they've never been like convicted. And then everyone on the like boat of incarcerated people are in jail for like yeah, they were like a marijuana charge. Yeah, and they're all actually non violent offenders.

That's not necessarily a theory, probably not accurate, especially given their facial reactions, but they didn't kill a bunch of people. I yeah, I I feel like that that scene does part of what I like about this movie well, where it's just kind of like a very comic bookie like who is good and who isn't? What is good? What is bad? And like people who are put in certain boxes aren't actually that. And I mean it's definitely like a very egregious example. But I don't know, I always

like that scene too. Um, but there should I mean, there should be more people of color in this franchise and seen in different roles. I totally agree. There's, um, there is another woman in this in the in this movie that we didn't mention, and she is the one who's having sex in his bedroom with that man while he goes into his safe room, and she's like, are you kidding me? When she goes down at the fundraising party and she's putting her blast back on as we

all normally do, very carefully buttoning the shirt. Oh, I can't leave a room unless just so wrinkled at all. A sex positive icon. Truly, in this movie, there is a young woman an old man. Well, if we bring up her, we also have to bring up the woman who I think his name is, like Salvatore Maroney. He's in a nightclub with this woman and she's like, can we go somewhere else? We can't hear each other talk? And then he's like, what do you think I want

to hear you talk? Like feminist icon Maroni Salva. This is what we get to choose from of the female characters in the film, and I think we picked Natasha. I think Natasha is the best one. She should have been seen more, and we briefly so. We mentioned Barbara Gordon a couple of times, but she only really exists in relation to her husband. We see her primarily doing mother stuff and being damseled. And I think Barbara is also the name of the wife. And the rock yeah

is on the grave. Yeah. Wild. The list of disgraced men, I'll just go through quickly. I also but they were all just like it was out at AFT post. This is a post, so we didn't know at the time, but Christians, Yeah, what a Christian bality. He was arrested for assault following a dispute between him and his mother and sister. Yeah. I was trying to read up on this.

The details seem murky. I don't quite know enough to He's denied, I mean, he denied the allegations, and it seems like they were kind of dropped, which for me never necessarily means that that is any reflections. Right, So it was from his mother and sister that okay. And he's also been known to have outbursts on set a lot and yeah, and on stage with that accent crazy put that away Christians. How we never figured out how

to act less Cockney. I don't know. The ultimate twists, Yeah, I was that he's in film for so long and none of us fully understood what he's because he's almost always doing an American accent or like a more posh British accent, and then yeah he accent in real life. You're like, oh my, this man hasn't received enough awards, right, that's for the takeaway. Um, we've got Michael Caine who loves Brexit whath Okay, but he's not so he's just an idiot. Then he's just too rich for his own good.

Yeah okay, but he's not like a malicious idiot. I mean I would argue that anyone who's like in full support of Brexit is like a bad person. Well I think, like I'm like inherently racist, and you know, well I put them in like different categories and like assault and like these Yeah, I mean speaking of Gary oldman assaulted his wife. I forget what year that was, but that came to light. That came out right before he won

an oscar anyways, So really a wash for Gary. And then Morgan Freeman made many many unwanted sexual advances and remarks towards many women on different sets. And then he also had a weird thing with his like stepdaughter or someone who was in his family. Oh that one I don't know about. Again, it's so hard to keep track of all the horrible men and all of their horrible

misdeeds and it's exhausting, it so weird. Yeah, and this is just a side fact about Christian Bale that I learned today that he at one point was Glorious Steynham's stepson. Oh so he's a feminist. Wait he was her stepson, and but his real mom and his sisters who he right, he did not. I think that more people would know if he assaulted Glorious. And and also, I mean it's worth saying that all of these men are still working and are doing just fine. Yes, so make of that

what you will. This movie was as Heath. We barely talked about Heath. I mean, just they're fantastic and complain nothing's come out, nothing's come as far as we know, a terrific guy. I wanted to touch briefly on how mental illness is demonized in this movie. I mean, the Joker's character in a nutshell, but but Batman stands up for it, right. He was like, that guy's a schizophrenic and you wanted to hurt him? Yes, that's about one line,

and then everybody else is crazy. Yeah. So one of Joker's goons is described as being a paranoid, schizophrenic, the kind of mind that Joker attracts. So I don't know if it's even in defense of that man or like saying like you shouldn't you know, just trying to Sorry, I keep interrupting. Go on that feminist podcast Masculine Energy. She was like, you're like an an alpha guy girl. I mean, girl, It's like, okay, that is a free session, right, But I think he stopped someone from hurting. Yes, he

stops Dent from shooting him, right. I mean for me, it's there's so many like overly serious, toxic male tropes that are given power in this movie. It comes down to kind of an adaptation issue for me, where it's like we have like the idea of asylums in this world are like super stigmatized, and I feel like they

are in a lot of comic book universe. Is this is something that it isn't really improved upon in this movie, which I think that the only thing it does is present the Joker as complicated, more complicated and is to an extent multifaceted, and we know that he is in pain from enduring being stigmatized, and there is that. I

don't think it really goes far enough. I think that well, since they name this specific illness paranoid schizophrenia, and then because that's like the one specific representation we have of mental illness in this movie, and then having that character who has that illness end up being a villain and a bad guy like that who needs to die, that

does a lot of harm. And to say like, oh, it's the kind of mind that Joker attracts, which means apparently, then Joker goes after a lot of different people with maybe an array of mental illnesses, and that means that all of those people with mental illnesses are demonized too, because they're all guys. I think in general, like, um, this is an issue I love like superhero comic books, movies, everything, but like this is an issue in general, is like

mental illness. And then also like I hate the way scientists are portrayed because they're often like the same thing. It's like the mad scientist. Like there's never any like good engineers other than like Batman and iron Man, right, like so I'm like, we're not all fucking crazy, Like we're not. And I think they often couple those things together, like the most brilliant minds who are villainized. Are these like mad scientists type people like Scarecrow developed this technology,

but he's like using it for evil, you know. So I think that's like those are two things that in general all comic books have an issue with. Usually I talked about different movies where like especially women in STEM are demonized, or like women in STEM adjacent whether witches. It's like a false attempt to empower them, um and be like, see, our women are more complicated, but then it's like they're just evil. They can be like smart

and also caring and whatever. There's and I feel like, speaking to the mental illness conversation, I think that schizophrenia is like kind of disproportionately attacked in movies as seeming like truly like you cannot possibly function in societ. I d um. Bipolar is also a common thing. I feel like that's kind of invoked more in slasher movies of like they're so two face and they can't blah blah blah. And to all my bi hooler heads out there, we're

we're cool, we're chill, we're fun to be around. We need a manic superhero, right like there needs someone that's like I'm gonna go solve cry today, and then I think there's a different read of the Joker that it is just sort of really empathizing with like a misunderstood white guy who descends into violence. Um, even putting the mental illness conversation aside, Like, I like that he is made to be a complicated character by that movie. I think there's like a lot of interesting things to be

said about that. But like, ultimately, if you're not reading it as an attack on mental illness, he's a misunderstood white guy who kills people, and that is you know, that's not nothing that exactly. I don't know. He was always kind of eccentric, right, right, But no one, I don't think anyone in this movie called him a terrorist. But that is what he is. He's a terror But because he's a white guy, no one's using that language.

They never said terrorizing the city. Usually they use that they might, but they didn't call him specifically a terrorist. I do not think because I don't think of terror I mean, I know that they're pulled from the same root word, but I don't think of someone saying, like you're terrorizing the city as terrorists. But did they do that with like people of color in these comic books.

I feel like they well, I don't know. I think the villains are almost always white men, So I don't know, at least there's that at least you're not getting called in to be like terrorists in a Marvel movie. That's like, at least we're just not in the Marvel movie. But I think when you do have like a you know, mental illness conversation aside a white male terrorist, you know, I think that they go further into justifying his actions and giving a context then you probably would if the

villain were a person of color. It's the Yeah, it's definitely now that we're talking about it this way. And he's just like the outside character that people that Dent chooses, the Dent is convinced by because he's tired of the system. That's Trump. That's like, that's like that chaos and unknown than anything else that's Trump. Yeah, Harvey Dent drained the swamp. Yeah, And there's I mean, and then and we can talk all day about like Batman doesn't never processed his trauma.

He'd rather dress up like a bat than deal with the death of his parents. I don't want to talk about it. I'm gonna go where my breath costume. You're like, all right, I think like I identify with him because a lot of my depression, Like people can't tell when I'm depressed, because I just work harder. Oh I love yeah, high functioning, Yeah, high functioning. So it's like I just pour everything into like being a robot basically. So I think that's probably why I like him. Alt. Does anyone

have any final points about the movie. I just want to Natasha movie. Oh the Ballerina, Well that brings us to I mean, we've already talked quite a bit about this, but does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Yeah? I guess it would be Ramirez talking to Barbara with that tow line exchange because she's like, those cops can't be trusted, go to two D fifty something Street, but she's technically talking about her protecting her daughter and sons. You're like, oh,

you can kind of see it. But I felt like that did pass, and it was an insane past because she's being held at gunpoint by a man while it's happening. That's also how Christopher Nolan put it in the movie, like fine, I'll do it, like I'm a feminist. And then the other conversation where women are even in the same scene together, which hardly happens, but Rachel says to Natasha, Natasha,

are you the Prima? And then Bruce interrupts and says Prima ballerina for the Moscow Ballet, So they don't even get to talk to each other because Bruce Wayne Enter erupts a woman. Yeah. So, um, a great movie. I still did enjoy it. It's a good movie. Uh, I'm glad that. I mean, it does sort of in context. It gives me a little bit of relief to know that Christopher Nolan got this note eventually to like, please stop fridging women as the center of the plot of

every single one of your movies. Um, it is nice to see progress, you know, because in spite of everyone's efforts, men are not going to simply disappear. So having them be allies to women, uh in their work is always encouraging. Yes, all right, let's write it on our nipple scale, where we use a scale of zero to five nipples based on its representation and treatment of women. I'll give I mean, it's basically a zero, right, it might be a point

five five for Natasha. I think I like didn't notice how how bad it was growing up because we were just fucking used to it exactly, and so like it doesn't take away from how much I enjoy it as just a movie. But I'm just like, damn, at least now we like like now we have movies where it like we are fulfilled, you know, like we have things

that are happening right now. But it really like pales in comparison when you compare, Like I was just like there are no I was searching for the women they're barely around and that long of a movie, and just like knowing that, you know, when this movie came out,

it was not something that registered for us. You just don't think we weren't looking for it, You weren't expected, like you wouldn't expect it in a movie of this genre, especially um so, so yeah, I'll give it a half a nipple for Natasha being like an intellectual and like

just cool. She's just like or just governed dummy. But other than that, I mean between all the the fridging, the us barely getting to know the Rachel character, not letting us see her do her job, you know, all that stuff, this movie I would say it's not like outwardly contemptuous of women. It just doesn't care about having them be in the movie and it doesn't make them like there are a lot of like superhero movies where the women are like unlikable in Damsel in Distress, like

even more like they're just literally there to fuck. So I feel like, at least it's not that I've been saying at least a lot today, it's just sitting here justifying this bullshit or it's still a good movie. And so we're like, yeah, but I'll give my half nipple to Natasha. How many nipples does a bat have? I wonder anyway, not important to Yah, that's true. Schumacher canon says to I'm going to do a half to the same reasons, especially because Rachel was written in for the

movie that you can't even get an adaptation problem. You're just like, come on, and it was written by Jonathan and Christopher Nolan. Most of those movies are and I'm just like, we get it. You want to kill your wife, like whatever. There there, it's lazy writing. This is a stand up equivalent of like, my wife's a bit. We just create these characters to kill like, Okay, maybe go to counseling. Can't even trust her with my fake death. I would be very like if I were Christopher Nolan's wife,

I'd be like do we need to talk? Like what did I do to you? Anyways? Yeah, just kind of like lazy writing and exclusion of women on the whole. But I like Natasha have nipple. Give it to Natasha? Why not same? I would say same. I will say now that like, as we're discussing this, I realized, like when I watched the movie, my least favorite part of it was Rachel And I think it's because I couldn't take anything from Cannon and like apply it to her character.

Like I couldn't just a by anything because she was and and I was like, who is this bitch? And like why is it like this? I don't like her character as much as I want to have humorless killed joy. I also think we'll all inconsistent because she's like she's like I'm on time, like I do this stuff. But then it's like, you know, she's like inconsistent, wavering between them, and then like isn't as strong as you want her.

She's like just wavering the whole time. Like Lakey and you're like, who is They don't know and they didn't like because she's not a character in the comic books, you can't just apply that knowledge to her. And I also just remember from the press surrounding this movie, it almost reminds me of like a Sarah Jessica Parker, Like how just Sarah Jessica Parker was treated during Sex in the City, where Maggie Gillenhall was not perceived as attractive

enough to be a romantic lead. There is a lot I mean, if you go back to Oh, I've got some receipts on it, I mean, there's a lot of really gendered pointed conversation about how people didn't find her hot enough to be in this movie. So it's just you know, we've we've grown. Maggie jillan Halls always been hot. Let's relax, Um half nipples across the board. Paula V. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having

on the show. What would you like to plug? I co produced Facial Recognition Comedy, which is on the second Sunday every month at Wesside Comedy Theater in Santa Monica, and we also have a podcast. Um that's released every Tuesday. And then I also run a show called Oversharing Comedy in Boomtown Brewery and that's bi weekly, so every two weeks on Thursdays. Um. And it's over Sharing Comedy on like Instagram. Um. And then should I give my social

yes please? Okay. My socials are get out of pen P A L L A V I g U and A L A. And that's my full name. That's my website on my Instagram, my Facebook, my Twitter. Awesome. Oh and I also started a Dirty Science web series on YouTube and Instagram. What's it called Dirty Science? But it's just like on my Instagram and then on my YouTube which is YouTube dot com slash probably been all in comedy.

I talk about different science topics that interest me and we're like, I talk about why things are the way they are through a scientific lens. But it's also like for adults, so I like swear and talk about sex and stuff. Hell yeah, hell yeah, awesome, yes, check out all of that stuff. You can check us out on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at bechtel Cast. You can go to our website becktel cast dot com, check out our Patreon dot com. Slash Betel cost five bucks a month, you get two

extra episodes. Do it? Why not? They're starts. We got t shirts, we got pillows, the other items you might want. I got this down to a sad public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast, and as always, we'll see you next time. Why So Serious By