Tangerine with Kai Choyce, Violet Gray, and Dahlie Belle

hear not one, but three different guests today. Kai choice is with us for the majority of the episode, but we also have UM analyzes and input from two other incredible guests, Dhalia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that we talked with Um Dahlia and with Violet after the recording of this original episode. Yes, so UM enjoy the episode.

On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have women and um are all they're just gassions, just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie loftus. It's us. This is our podcast.

This is our feminist movie podcast, where we lead our discussion and our analysis using the Bechtel test, which is a media test made by queer writer Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test. But Caitlin, it's been a couple of weeks. What is the Bechdel test? Simply don't remember she is? I'll see if I can remember. Um. Now, historically we have and many people have used a version

of the Bechtel test. That it's funny to use the word historically in as it pertains to us a show that's been on for four years historically though, No, historically, I see where're going, I see whe're going this than you so much. But like with us, and then also on a larger scale, many people use the Becktel tests in terms of do two women speak to each other?

That's what we've always said. Now, in in our ongoing effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way we see the Bechtel test, and rather than two women or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about something other than a man, the version of the test that we are going to use moving forward is two

people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that includes non binary people, that includes intersex people, that includes trans men speak to each other about something other than a cyst man that says maya, because if there's anything we don't need more of in cinema, says its men. Right, So that is our back tests moving forward. Uh, shall we try to make it pass? Okay? Yes, okay, this

is a special dystopian edition of Betel Test. Ready, Uh, let's run it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I don't know why, but the National Guard just flew a drone over my house. Just something terrifying to think about. Um, then we're talking about a drone that's an example of the mental test being passed. Yeah, that is scary. We live in a police state and um fuck the police. Defund the police. Yes, if you, if you, if you're pro cop log out, yeah, go do some reading. Anyways. Um, yes, I'm very excited

for the movie that we're covering today. This has been a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this movie for a long time. Um, but I'm glad we're doing that. We'recovering Tangerine, Yes, we are, and we have a guest with us as always a special guest. He is a comedian podcaster host of Women Who Kill podcast It's Kai Choice. How's it going? It is? It's it's going, it is, it is going. That feels like, yeah, it feels like the right. But was that a real That

was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually happened to you know. I was on the phone with Caitlin before you jumped on the zoom call and it was like it became really loud all of a sudden, and I looked out the window and there was just a gigantic, like low flying drone just going over my neighborhood that I need to do some googling about. I was like, I thought, are they still here? Like I don't, I don't know, but it was very close and very I've never seen one in real life me either. Yeah,

shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time this episode airs, I will know more, but given who knows, Yeah, you'll be fine. Keep us posted, Yeah, I will. Were excited terrifying drones aside. We're happy we're here. Yes, like we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine Kai. What is your relationship with this film. I love this movie.

I saw this movie for the first time a couple of years ago, and the only thing that made me want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy, but also I heard they shot it on an iPhone, and I was like, I need to see how terrible this is. And it wasn't. It's great. No, It's like I I think that if I didn't know that this movie was shot on an iPhone going into my first viewing,

I wouldn't have guessed it. I would I would have been like, oh, it looks like a d I Y movie, But I never would have guessed it was shot on an iPhone. Yeah, I would have thought they just they did something weird to stylize it. I'm like, no, that's that's just how it looks when and that's what you use. But it worked. Also, two white guys to guys produced it. Yes, that impressed me. We'll talk all about that. But the director of this movie is a white man named Sean Baker,

and then he co wrote it with Chris Berg Go Brogock. Well, we'll talk about that though, because I think that I think that the writing credits of this movie are a little are are a little bit belonged to other people? Yes, yes, impro well yeah, and we'll we'll cover this more when

we get into this discussion. But the central conflict of this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one lead actor, in particular Katana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy, actually a few things that happened in the movie a few pretty major plot points or like again the whole story are like experience. Yeah, yeah, things that either happened to her or friends of like happened to friends of hers that she just kind of like relay the information

to these white sis male screenwriters. And I mean there's there's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to be had. But okay, yeah, the production of this movie I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect. I didn't know much about the production of this movie. And there's there there were a lot of twists and turns for sure in production. There's a there's a do plass brother that gets involved. You're just like whoa, whoa, whoa.

There's well, Jamie, what's your relationship in history with it? I have seen this movie before. I really really enjoyed it UM the first time I watched it, just because I think it had come to streaming recently and I just wanted to see it because it means like, it's the iPhone movie and it's great, and I was like, okay, UM, and I really really enjoyed it the first time I watched it. UM. I wasn't at the time, I wasn't watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it

for UM for the show. And I guess what, I still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same what about you, Caitlin. Yeah, I saw it it came out. UM. I probably didn't watch it for the first time until a couple of years later. I think I saw in SEV the first time, and I had heard similar things like they shut the whole thing on an iPhone, isn't that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like, who cares about that? Like it's such a monumental film for so

many other reasons, Um, And it's so fun. It's so funny. It's I mean a romp, you know me. I love a good romp. UM. But it's Yeah, I loved it. I watched it. I've seen it a few times now. Over the years, and um, big fan. But I think it's kind of selfishly. It's fun because it takes place near where we all live. Oh I know where? Oh cool? I think I know every driven past, don't a time before.

But also there there are parts where you're like, you didn't walk there, you didn't walk from there, There's no way. I was like, I'm cutting two hours later. Cool, So should we jump in? Yeah, let's do the recap. So it's Christmas Eve, It's a Christmas in Los Angeles. It's a Christmas movie, right, it is? Oh, this is good. That should be added to the like official holiday movie masterless. Sure. And one of many reasons I like this movie is that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time,

that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It kind of sometimes like lighting. I feel like that the main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun holiday lighting and something you're like, but for the most part, everyone's just like, I don't really give a funk that it's Christmas. And I'm like, that's how I feel. As the resident um Scrooge mcgrinch of the group, Um, did you just yes? That is what I said, and I'm

so sorry, everybody innovating, innovating all over life. Thank You's actually the name of my new screenplay, Um Scrooge mcgrinch, The the Anti Christmas Story, The Anti christ Mass Story. Yes, it starts. Who does it start? Who does it start? Oh? Um? Oh my gosh. Honestly, if Alfred Molina is not in this movie, I'll pitch a fit. So you belong to somewhere in this universe. I'm assuming it's an expanded universe. There's a lot, you know, grant I need. I need

at least four movies the un fact. You'll get them. I'm working on it. Um okay. Anyway, So it's It's Christmas Eve in Los Angeles? Ever heard of it? And we meet West Hollywood, specifically in West Hollywood. Yeah, we meet Cindy played by Katana Kikei Rodriguez. And you got to spell it. Yes, it's not the like c I N d y spelling that you might be conte. It's s I N d E last name, last name Rella. So Cindy Rella, yes, or is our protagonist's name? You

don't call a protagonist. I can do that, though I'm not sure I will. Um and then, um, she is with Alexandra played by Maya Taylor, and they are best

friends and they are both trans sex workers. In their conversation, Alexander lets it slip that Cindy's boyfriend and pimp Chester has been cheating on her with a white CIS woman whose name they're not totally sure of, but they think it begins with the D And this was happening while Cindy was gone for the past few weeks, and we found out later that she was in jail for possession of drugs that she was holding for Chester. She was in jail for twenty eight days, right, Okay, yeah, this

is actually the sequel to twenty eight days later. By the way, r I p donut time. I know it was a simpler time. It was a donut your time. There was a donut your time. Wow, you're not wrong. Um okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady the Fish the Fish, and Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her, and she's also handing out flyers for a show that Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at seven pm. Yes, this is where the walking comes in. You're just like

how do we get here so quickly? Right? Meanwhile, we meet Razmic Rasmic, a cab driver, and we see him driving some people around hill. Is this before? Is this before? Is this bu? Is this before? Uber? Or Uber was definitely a thing at this point, it was just kind of new. Maybe wasn't a gigantic threat to the cabin district yet. I don't know, because he seemed busy, right, he was always driving, and it was like, yeah, I

guess it would have been cab times. I also, I mean this movie was like shot Wait, let me get the exact dates of when this was shot, because it might have been shot like at an even more cab time. Let me see. Okay, it was filmed at the end of So I feel like that is pretty firmly like before uber really really caught on, right, it was still it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and

lift was it wasn't super popular. But um, Kyle, you said be you, and that provides an opportunity for me to bring up something that I hated to college. Um no, that's b why you I went to bust you. Yeah, and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting. There, Um, thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose. I hate to bring it up, but you left me no choice. Um. Okay, So we meet this cab driver and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash played by Ian Edwards, who um as a comic an

actor of course, but super funny. Yeah. She asks Nash if he has seen Chester and he tells her to go to a food line where she might be able to get some more information from people. That leads her to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile, Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he completely short changes her. Um from the jump, and then the situation escalates because cops get involved. And because this

is fiction, the cops are hell of cool. Yeah, the cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas right right, Like I'm going to let this one slide. And you're just like, okay, really would you do that? I don't think So it's still fucked up. So then we see we're back to Rasmick driving around cruising. He's looking for a sex worker to pick up, and we learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. Uh. And then he and Alexander cross paths because he is

a regular client of hers. Then Cindy finally finds the woman she's looking for. Her name is Nina, pulls her out of this party room at this motel and starts dragging her part. Excellent, that's such a nice that's a nice way of putting it. I know that motel by the way, Wait, where is it Hollywood? And okay, oh yeah, I used to drive past there all the time going to Nerd Melt. I used to work at it. The only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that

provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone knew that that motel is like legit, that's all that motel does is they rent by the hour two sex workers. And it was it was nice to see that, you know, they're still doing business, they're still doing really well. Got some some full frontal male nudity. We see at least one dick. Yeah, it's a it's a scared dick. It's a dick against the wall. And you're like, yeah, she

finds Dinah. She finds Dinah and pulls her out, like drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her across town towards donut time, where she finds out that Chester is But then she realizes it's a little past seven pm and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy drags Dina to Hamburger Mary's to get on a buss.

You never see That's like one small representation thing that I always really appreciate it, but you never see like protagonists use public transit like it's and when you actually see it, you're like people people of course like there, but yeah, they they hang out on a real life l a city bus. What a dream and everyone has

seen that. You know, if you've ever like taken a bus for more than a couple of days at a time, you've you've seen a situation like that, You're like, I'm gonna pretend this isn't happening right now, this is none of my business. Someone is probably in danger, but this is a low key hostage situation. There, it's a hostage drump. Everyone minded their own business. It was nice, we all got to where we were going. Um so Meanwhile, we see razmake at home and realize that he is married.

He and his wife has a small child. His mother in law lives with them, so we realized basically he's kind of living this double life. There are Armenian yes, there,

Armenian there. I mean, it is like there are so many elements of this movie that make it like an awesome l A movie because it's so many like underrepresented communities in l A specifically are in the end, it's it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them like actually characterized and not just like in passing is for the amount of movies that take place in l A. It's like a super rarity is cool totally um. So,

he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's. Then we see her singing at the show, and then we also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less antagonistic than they were a little bit. I wanted to see Dina continue to be beaten because the only two white people in this movie are the kind of white people who use the N word because they think it's cool, and so anytime something bad was about to happen to them.

I'm like, yes, bring it more and Chester and Chester. Yeah, it's it is wild because there is such a huge build in the movie to you meeting Chester, and then when you meet Chester, you're like what you expect? You're just like, this is who we were. So this guy, all right, maybe he has a great personality. And then he doesn't know, doesn't this is who everyone was fighting for, right Literally Chester has no idea how good he has it? Right? Yeah,

their their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke. Was that is that crap? Me? Okay? Yeah, I don't know drugs? Embarrassing? How do you live in l A and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square. It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing l A Is known for. So that happens, and then Cindy also fixes Dina's smudgy makeup, so it's like maybe they're starting to be sort of friendly toward each other. The makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until

she cried it off. Correct. It's very sweet, it is. It is like that. It ends up being a very tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too, where it's just like things are like happening, happening, happening. It's a rob We're going from place to place very quickly, and then every once in a while you get like

to really hang somewhere. And it's not always with the characters that you expect, like I wasn't expecting a longer scene with Cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom, right, but but it just feels right, and it gives you a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together. You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. M So then they head back towards don't time to link up with Chester. We can talk about how terrible the show was.

Oh yeah, it's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes, um, no one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians, um, we understand. We get it, especially around like the holidays in l A. And if you're like still doing shows, you're just like there's four lonely people and they're so into it, and then other than that there's no one and you're just like, uh, you know what I wish they had done? I wish that in the middle of

her song they had turned on a blender. You're someone started shaking a drink really hard every time every time someone orders a fucking daker. Who's ordering a dabt? Who and whoever it is then is like heckling from the back. You're just like god, right, And then we find out that she had to basically like pay to get stage time. We've all I definitely have paid five dollars to participate in an open mic before. But it's an audition, right,

it's valuable. You're being charged in experience there. I thought Alexandra's performance was lovely. I was, it was really sweet and really nice, and I was just I don't know. Yeah, it's just like a holiday time show field where you're just like, be so nice if there were people here. Okay.

So then so they're heading back towards donut time. Meanwhile, Resume is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he missed them at Hamburger Mary's, so he asks their friends where they might be, and then he also heads towards don't at time. But he lied to his family. He lied to his family and his son. His mother in law is suspicious, so she gets in another cab and

hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra, and Dinah arrive at doughnut time and Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet on screen for the first time, about cheating on her with Dinah. Chester is all like, no, Cindy, I love you, you or my fiance And then everyone's like, wait a minute,

what you're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time, y yep, and then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah and just then um Rasmiek shows up because he wants to spend time with Cindy, but right then his mother in law also shows up and she realizes what Resmuk has been getting into this whole time. So there's a lot of yelling, and then she calls her daughter, Resuk's wife and she shows up, and then there's more yelling. Woman who owns the donut shop, like why does this

keep happening? She keeps she keeps threatening to call the cops um, which again would have in real life resulted in everyone dying. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up. That's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency, Okay, we'll be there in six hours. But anyway, so Rasmus wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife has to look the other way because he is the sole breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call

me down here? I know, trying to pretend this isn't happy. Now you have to embarrass everybody, right, But anyway, so it seems like everything's going to be okay after all this chaos has just erupted. But then Chester is like, wait a minute, Alexandra is the one who told you that I was cheating Cindy. Well did she mention that she and I had sex? And then Cindy is devastated that her best friend would betray her like that, so she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's

not having any of it. And then she's tried to go to work. Uh, some awful bastards throw a cup of urine on Cindy, and then Alexander runs over and helps her get cleaned up. They go to a laundromat and she knows she washes her off, and then she gives Cindy her hair and then they make up and that's the end of their night, and the end of the movie. Why is Chester the what? Why can can

no one do better than Chester? I don't understand, Yes, zero redeemable quality because you see these women like knowing their worth a lot, Like throughout the whole movie they're like, no, like you have to give me more money, Like I'm not doing that. Like there's a lot of them knowing

their word. Not to defend Chester, but and I'm not defending Chester, but there's a lot of strong women who know they're worth who are inevitably like kind of inexplicably with a Chester drawn to forty year old who still have skateboards, right, And you're just like, okay, so this is just this is there's something that you know, like Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's you know, everyone has a I have a certain kind of shitty guy that I'm to have a chance. It's not the Chester type, but

I have my Chesters. You know, I've had my share of Chesters. Sure Gus hasn't had a Chester too. Yeah, Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss the film. And we're back. So where begin. There's there's so much, so many wonderful things to talk about. Does it make sense to get into some of the context in terms of like the production and development of

this movie. Sure thing first, yeah, so, so I think that the surprising thing for me because again, when I was watching this movie the first time, I'm I didn't do research on the director. I was just watching it

to enjoy it. But the director and one of the two credited writers on this movie is a director, Sean Baker, who is like a white guy who went to n y U. Which I don't know what I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to n y U. And so I think that that is like, that's worth discussing here because I think that this movie is um is and is considered a step forward in trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films, let's say,

and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have been made if Mark Duplas hadn't gotten involved and if this guy, Sean Baker hadn't directed it. So he made movies before. I think this was his first like big, really popular movie, and then he went on to he also made The Florida Project, but same same writing team, same director, and same font on the poster even say

I think so, I mean, it's it's nothing. I mean, I don't know of anything negative about Sean Baker, but I do think that that is something that has come up on our show before. Where um, sometimes in movies that are like pushing forward in some ways, you still have a lot of the old guard, let's say, behind

the camera, which kind of which sucks. Like you, I mean, ideally, there should be more black directors being able to direct black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need for a white guy who went to n Y you really involved at all. In this case, a beautiful movie was was turned out by it. But that kind of it into what we were talking about a bit at the top of the show, which is the writing process.

And once you find out that like a do Plas brother is involved, the writing style kind of all comes together. You're like, okay, so yeah, You're like, okay, so this movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written because that's a very like do Plas brothers. They're the they're the mumble core kings whatever, and it seems like

this movie had a very similar approach to writing. So my understanding, based on just the production history and on interviews I read at the time that the movie was coming out, was that Sean Baker did not wasn't ingratiated in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He is. He was just kind of a guy who made movies and was looking for stories to tell and lived in West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community. He was aware of the trans community, but he you know,

obviously he didn't have any experience there himself. And so he started to um talk with the two women who eventually started this movie, uh, Katana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor, and through Caitlin you were saying this earlier, but through talking with them, getting to know them, uh, spending time with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right to tell through talking with them, and like you were saying, a lot of the major plot points in this movie

are based on the experiences that either they or their friends had had. Because they are both former sex workers, they are both trans women, they like very much lived this experience their characters are depicting in the movie, which On one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters played by trans actors, which is unfortunately historically in Hollywood pretty rare. Red Maine, I feel like he still hasn't had to answer for that. Oh for the Danish girl.

Um and the fact that, yeah, I mean they are black trans women. They have this experience of being former sex workers. It's there kind of real life story that's being told through this movie. That again was as far

as the credited writers go, is these two sis white men. Yeah, it's a really long way of getting to the fact that Keiki and Maya should based on everything I've read and seen about this movie, they should be credited as writers of this movie just as much, if not more so, than Sean Baker and Chris berg BERGA sure how to say it? Question mark? Who's this? Chris guy? Who is? There's no Wikipedia? But this is also in addition to,

like again, major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences. UM. I also read that a lot of the dialogue that was written into the script got basically altered, improvised, adapted to be more authentic, to be more authentic, right, So it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue, I could tell that Chester's lines were written by a straitcist, like that that was written on a fucking MacBook Pro.

Those lines right there. Final, Yeah, it's true, And I feel like, yeah, when you when you know that going into watching the movie, the viewing experience is it's still a wonderful movie, but it's a little different because you can hear those written scenes in there, like under this like very authentic, like natural feeling dialogue from Kiki and Maya.

And I was also saying reading and hearing in the interviews that they gave around this, the Kiki and Maya were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker and pushing to make the movie funny and to make it a romp. And they're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah. Sure,

Like their line readings were ridiculous. It's hilarious, so perfect, and it seems like and I think that a tendency a lot for white filmmakers telling non white stories is to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy, and even though there are sad things that happen inside of this movie, it doesn't feel like a weighed down, tragic story, and that sounds based on all the interviews, it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and

Maya pushing for that. So there, I cannot find a reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not credited as writers right on this movie. So to speak to that a little more. Um. This is a quote from an article in The Guardian where it says quote the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more downbeat and dramatic had Rodriguez not put her foot down. Um,

looking back, he realized how right she was. She was asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream audiences in a pop culture way so that they could identify with them. End quote. So then pay her for that. Like it's just it's so annoying when people pull this ship and continue to pull this ship because m yeah, I mean it seems like they wrote more of the

story than he did. I know, He's like, eventually I realized that, you know, she was kind of right about like how the story that she basically created should be told, you know, like she had she had good instincts, I guess. And He's like yeah, I'll put my name on that. Sure.

It's just like Jesus Christ there, and it's so many things at once because I just like it's frustrating because it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker is a bad person, and I think that he made a lovely movie, but it just doesn't seem like Kiki and Maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence and work that they did and had over this movie

that the actors made it totally. And yeah, especially because like a writing credit would have meant that they got more money, they would have been paid more and and things like that, they could have been nominated for writing

awards like there. And another thing that this movie I think was like considered as like a milestone that Tangerine pushed forward was some of the first Um, the oscars suck, so of course they slept on it, but um, some of the first like acting nominations for trans women were because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean there there is a lot of if not first, um, some of the best in recent memory progress for for representation.

But it's still just the fact that at the end of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating, and it's like I wish I could say I were surprised. Um, I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this though, because it was the Boy. They shot it on three five s right, and they edited it and I think, just like I movie, probably no, it was it was super I mean, it seems like they used equipment that

they already had to make it. But even that aside, it's like they still have a whole crew they have. There's a lot of performers in this movie, and you have to imagine they're not making a ton of money to do it. And it's like Mark Duplas, you have money, come on, Mark, sir. In any case. Yeah, Well, something that has been coming up for us a lot is we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be inclusive in the writing. And we've been saying again this

more often more recently. But you know, we we're not saying that a white ciss man couldn't make a great movie about black trans sex workers. Because we saw that they did that did happen? And um, I have a quote here from another article entitled What Tangerine taught Hollywood about how to tell trans stories. From the publication them quote to craft a story about a world with which they had little experienced, director Sean Baker and his writing partner Chris Berg um new when to ask for help

right away. The humility demonstrated by Baker and Berg in copying to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject upfront is essential for any syst filmmaker who wants to incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. All and the quote there, and we'll post this article because I think the whole thing is worth reading. But um, that's what we always say, like, do your homework. You can represent communities responsibly even if you do not belong to

that community. It is going to be much harder for you, and it will take a lot more homework. Um. But I guess and I don't want to, but it must sound like I'm giving these guys too much credit. But the bottom line is, yeah, definitely that like these two actors, the lead actors in this movie should have been given far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie,

way more than they were. Yeah. I mean it's like if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important, but you also need to like give credit where credited is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is also something that you do financially, and it's something you do by like using your own influence to continue to like provide a platform and provide Like it's just I Sean Baker is more on the right track than I

think a lot of sins white guys are. But it's still the fact that I'm just like they should have been paid more, they should have been credited more, and because like this movie was nominated for a lot of behind the scenes stuff too, and and and they should have you know, gotten a cut of that as well. So yeah, yeah, yeah, what have they done after this? Uh? Not too much? And for intunately that this is um Kiki Rodriguez is only film credit, and Maya has been

in a few other things but mostly short films. And then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Lou and Adrian Grenier. I don't so so she's she's she's working, but it but Kiki isn't as much And I feel like, that's something too. It's it's the fact that Sean Baker, you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a springboard and go on to make The Florida Project, a

movie that I mean, I haven't seen it. I know it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget and a movie like he was able to leverage Tangerine into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women whose story he was literally telling with Tangerine, And did they get left behind in in an unfair way? And and what meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience, however well told, as a springboard for his own career.

Yuh um. This is a good time to cut to our next segment with another one of our special guests. She is a stand up in improv comic, a dungeon master, and sometimes freestyle rapper. It's Violet Gray. Hello, Hello, thank you so much for having me, Thank you for being here. So more or less, we just wanted to hear your thoughts, specifically on the representation of black trans women in the

movie Tangerine. Sure, so, I was just telling my partner that my position on this has evolved quite a bit because if you had asked me fifteen years ago what I thought of the representation of black trans women in the movie Tangerine, I would have talked about this uncomfortable consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as

like drug addicted prostitutes. But since then, in the last fifteen years or so, I've really evolved on what it means to be a sex worker and what it means to have addiction, and um, I would say, there's nothing wrong, there's nothing shameful about being in the sex industry. And one thing I did like is that I mean, there was a scene where they're using drugs, they're smoking crack, and it didn't happen until much later in the movie, and I thought that was good because it established them

as humans. First, they're not drug addicts, they're humans who do drugs um uh and and it took them out of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood that that in ironment is is some people's realities. I was thankful that they were humanized the way they did. I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me of myself. So there's a scene where she where Cindy is in the subway train and she is looking out

of the window. I don't think a lot of people realize that if you're a trans person, that can be a sort of defense mechanism, because you're pretty much locked in a box with complete strangers for a while, and when you're looking out the window, they can't see your face and they can't see your features. Yes, so I guess that there's something to be said about how black

trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is a conversation there, but I also think that hey, sex workers and people who have substance of these issues are humans too, absolutely, and I think ultimately this movie was more about friendship and adversity than any of that. Definitely, to speak to the um SO, I was just talking about how just last night, at the time of this recording,

this documentary just came out on Netflix. But the doc Disclosure that um Laverne Cox, among many other people, executive produced. They touch on this specific thing in the documentary about how the representation of black trans women, especially in media, that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately, and there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many black

trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out, there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate for black trans women is very high because of discrimination, and many black trans women have no choice but to turn to sex work because no one will give them a job. Absolutely, yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge any of the systemic reasons why black trans women might

be sex workers. And it's just like, well, that's just what black trans women be, and right right, as if when everyone was going to elementary school and one person wanted to be a police officer and the other person wanted to be yea, yeah, no, no, no, little kid is in it. And when people want to know about intersectionality, black trans women are might go to example because it is the intersection of being a person of color and

being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think that a lot of people, especially people who push this uh personal responsibility narrative as if it's a false dichotomy. It's an either or you're either taking personal responsibility for your situation or you're blaming external factors, as if external factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for

for your current situation, whatever that situation. Maybe, But yes, I think what most minority groups need above anything else in film representation is to be humanized, and I think that Tangerine did do a good job of that. Yeah, I'm also curious of UM going off of Tangerine a little bit, what would you like to see more of

in terms of representation. What is UM something that you would like to see more of that that isn't quite I don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet as far as black trans women, or just in general, as far as like Okay, so, one of my favorite sci fi books, and one of the stories that I point to as one of the best representation of a trans person is a book called The Fifth Season by N. K. J Emison, And there's a trans character in there who you don't find out is trans until two thirds of

the way through the book. But until then, mostly what you know about her is that she's this sort of terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this thing in it, we could do this thing. And she comes from a well to do family, but she is pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because she was supposed to be the man of the house

who was supposed to marry you. Well, and she's like, well, I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't be what you need me to be. And so I really liked a story where a trans person her transness is not her defining trait, but at the same time, it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. So when you're saying, like, what would I like to see more of, I would like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness

without it being the defining trait for sure. Yeah, that's a balance that it seems like Hollywood, at least, even though slow and slight progress is being made in terms of trans representation in Hollywood, it seems like still so many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever are still very much contingent on well, this is a trans person and that's the thing we know about them. Yes,

that there was a controversy about a video game. I believe it was one of the Boulder's Gate or Ice wind Dale Games, and um, there was a trans character and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans person disclosed their transness, their trans status. They mentioned it in like the opening sentence of meeting the character, the main character, So it would be the equivalent of going up to someone it's like, Hi, Caitlin, nice to meet you.

I'm trans, so anyway, um and so yes, yes, and so they were like, you know, yes, there is something to be said for It's it's evolving, is the point that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters and games now that aren't so in your face, but but it's it's like, um, do you remember Atari, Remember how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation five it is coming out and it looks damn near like real people. Right. I think dialogues we have a sort

of the same progression. I like this metaphor. Yeah, it's like this is this is good ship? Uh yeah. I think that they're still figuring out. And me being having Gothic tendencies, I don't usually lean toward optimism, but I

think that I think that they're they're working it out. Yeah, And that's a lot of what that that documentary Disclosure is about this sort of slow evolution of trans representation in media, and how for decades and decades it was all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals as well as culture at large, and how it's really only been in the past like maybe five years, that

there's been any kind of headway made in terms of progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people in popular media. I think that once the Internet came out, Once we had the Internet, it was a rap because knowledge is the bane of ignorance, and now with the Internet, we can just know things at such a rapid pace.

A lot of people can know a thing very quickly, and so I don't really think that there would be a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate, or Black Lives Matter or trans issues without the information age that we now live in totally and we would, I mean we What we were talking about in the episode is it's it seems like Tangerine is a good step in the right direction, But I hope in a couple of years we're at a point where it's like a sci

fi story with a trans protagonist, that would be fucking incredible. And just like you were saying, just you know, centering the story on a trans character in a way that isn't like and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no, we're in a sci fi world with a trans character, right. Absolutely, the normalization is still something we need to normalize. If that makes any sense. Yes, it really makes you think. I mean, it's it's a process, but it's something we'll

just have to keep working on. Because I remember watching a documentary on the representation of black people on the screen back when they were black and white movies, and there was a time when if a black person was on the screen for a couple of seconds, black families would call out to everyone in the house and say, look a black person on TV. And they would all run to the TV to watch the black person on TV.

And this was before say Living Single or The Cosby Show or What's Happening or Family Matters, and so yeah, I think most groups, probably when it comes to representation, uh go through this process as we talk about on the show. Often representation will kind of come in waves or there will be stages to it where First of all, any marginalized group will be more or less just erased,

pretend that they don't exist in media. Then there will be an acknowledgment of their existence and an inclusion of it on screen, but that that representation will be horrifying, racist, transphobic, you know all yeah, just like really damaging. And then when we when you know, enough people realize that that's not good, then there will be more progress to something.

And then and then that's what injurin even is like that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like, Okay, we're going to center this story on black trans women in an authentic way. The director is still some random white guy who went to n y U. But you know, it's like the story is still not like given to the people who need to be telling it. So it's

like a step like inching inching, inching forward. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that the writers for Good Times were all white, Oh wow, yeah to begin with. And so yeah, yeah, that is definitely a process that it was the source of some tension between the actors and the writers sometimes, I'd imagine, so yeah, but yeah, it is, it is part of the the evolution something that I think most of us believe in. Yes, yes, but yes, but um but yeah, I do think it is.

It is one of the things that is part of a normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation, and then small stepping stones, and then someday, hopefully very soon, we have just no one could take any issues with the representation that we see because it's at a place where it's positive and good and yeah, a sci fi expanded universe, right and that and that will come with trans people being the ones to tell their own stories.

Absolutely absolutely. I look forward to the day when when the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche, right and yeah, and not because she's like a weird trophy murderer. Yeah. M hm um. Do you have any other thoughts, any other things you'd like to share in

terms of Tangerine specifically or representation in general. One thing that I thought was particularly poignant about Tangerine, and I think this is true of many minority groups, but I think trans women and trans women of color in particular is so. Towards the very end, she found out that her best friend cheated with her boyfriend, and she was like, too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry, and she's trying to walk away, and then she's a

victim of this hate crime. And then Alexandra takes her to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her her wig, which is wow, which is a major gestre And one thing I thought was very poignant was about how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because they have to because the at the end of the day, the rest of the world is against marginalized people. And um I thought that it ended on a note that expressed the value of sticking together and being there for

each other. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you so much for having me. It was so much fun. Give us your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you? And oh sure on Instagram I'm Chaotic Violet. You get to see all my weird Renaissance Fair costumes. And on Twitter I'm Violet Silver. And this Monday, I'm going to be on the butter Boy comedy Zip show. Yeah with a partner punches. Yeah, that is where you can find

oh Violent Gray on YouTube and yeah, that's it. Incredible, amazing, Thank you so much, so much for joining us, Thank you for having me. Wonderful. Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll be back for more. Um, we're back, We're back. And another thing that I love how this movie like chose the line of you so often see

like characters defined by their own trauma. Like, I think that that's a lot of like when sis hat white guys are writing outside of their own experience, and when like a lot of like when any writer is writing outside of their own experience, I feel like it is a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone by their trauma. And I think this movie, for the most part, toes the line really well of portraying that, like there are very very real struggles that these characters

are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put in jail it seems like for not a good reason. Um, And and the kind of looming presence of the cops that never fully explodes, but it's always there, like you you see the unfair ship that they have to deal with, but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that defines them. What defines the story is how you know, it is primarily like Alexandra and Cindy's friendship, which is so like fun to see and that that's a whole

journey as well. And yeah, it's also I mean, the characters themselves, many of them are not I guess, for lack of a better term, woke. Like there's there's slurs that I know, there's you know, there's reductive and offensive

name calling that gets thrown around. There's I mean, a large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent toward another woman and not holding Chester accountable enough perhaps for cheating and really and targeting the other woman, you know, which is a thing that always you know, dings are little bill. But at the same time, like I I give all of that a past just because again that that these characters feel. So I'm like, yes, that would

probably happen. And of course this Dina is such an Dina, I mean, and she she has her own like sub story as well, but like when you meet Dinah, she's such an antagonistic asshole, like you know it it doesn't necessarily justify the violence against her. But I also it's like,

I don't know that Cindy is already upset. Uh Dina does not approach the situation in a way that does remotely like cool or calm or anything, and so I feel like it's justified in story of like, you know, particularly when you first meet her, before you get those like more tender moments and you get more context for her, You're like, oh, I get why Cindy is like pissed

at at at this lady. But also as as shitty as all the men are in the movie The Men, you never really get the feeling that any of the women are actually threatened by them, though in real life that might not be the case. Um in the film, you don't. You don't get that impression, right, that's true,

I guess. Yeah, with Alexandra's um client early on, where he only has forty bucks and he's like trying to short change her and like she's she has none of it, and it ends up like if the situation flares up, but eventually it's fine and she has control of the situation. She gets her forty bucks, right at least, I forget. I don't think she ever does she not because the cops in fear. Yeah, but then she she does meet up with Resumek, who gives her money, but resume is

also um, it's complicated. Yeah, but that's I mean right. And then also, like I wanted to mention that even though Cindy is literally dragging Dina by her hair and being violent towards her and all this stuff, I can't speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she, as a black trans woman, would feel very betrayed by Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it, Like I'm not necessarily pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, I am.

I totally was, Yeah, if anyone's going to do it, it it should be her, right, right. It feels like it's not it's not it's not really abusive. Yeah, She's just she was betrayed and they were having fun. It just looks it looks like it looks good. They smoked myth together. It's fine. It is. It's like different rules. It's so because it's like not not to excuse a kidnapping, but it seems like a pretty light kidnapping because because by the time they're on the bus, like even Dinah is

kind of like joking about it. She's like, oh, can I pick up my hair tie, is that okay, I'm still your captive, But like, can I put my hair back? And Sandy's like, yeah, fine whatever, and it's like, okay, this is a very friendly kidnapping. They go to a show together, they you know, it's um yeah. When they went to the bar and the door guy said she's she's only got one shoe, she said she's from the hills, She's a hillbilly, and the door guys just like sure, fine, whatever, great. Yeah.

I mean, I keep having to remind myself that, like, these are people whose survival instinct and is just like survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs to be because of my privilege, Like I don't need to be out on the streets where the risk of danger and violence against me is much greater. So I have to remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another woman out onto the street by her hair, like I

am not put in danger every day. Also that the stakes are a little higher when you consider that going back to jail for either of these women most likely means being put in a jail with men, right, very true, I think that. Yeah, And and the fact that that that even though they're not credited as writing it, the fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from their own experiences. You know, they're presenting true experiences and they're presenting it in a way that is very fun

to watch. And I mean, yeah, that's why the movie is good, Like it's it's because of them and their performances and their input and there lived experiences that get adapted to the screen. Like yeah, that's why this movie was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if we had just let Sean and Chris like, yeah, guess their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah would be, they would have gotten it so wrong, like it would have been recoiem for a Dream with a

song exactly. It would have just and and so yeah everything and this movie that it just that you're just like, oh, I don't but it's like it's they're they're telling their own story in an authentic way and it's based on true experiences, and it's just like okay that that it is what it is like they're they're telling their story. M hmm. Now it was a good time to cut to our next segment with another special guest. She is a comedian, a writer for The Portland's Mercury. She's an

associate producer of the Portlands Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dhalia Bell. Welcome, thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Of course, of course, so we just wanted to hear your thoughts on the representation of black trans women in the movie Tangerine specifically, and then if you had any other thoughts on trans representation, black trans representation, the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah.

So um, to be entirely honest, I did have to go back and watch the movie about two nights ago, and yeah, it did not wrote me. Well, I will say that, And I really had to do some personal soul searching because you know, initially I'm like, am I so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans women as sex workers? And I thought about that and no, I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends

are full service sex workers. So I'm like, no, that's not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use, I would say, No, I do understand where drug use does play a role in both trans culture and the broader queer culture. Um simply you know, being stuck in situations where we're trying to find ourselves, and in many cases

I've been a pro drug advocate. However, the representation I feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar troops that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women are guilty of. For example, the image of so First I do want to come in the movie for casting what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women, as opposed to even a program I love like Pose, where you have the obviously over glamorized methods that people want to see, but all the same, I feel it's

a very messy image of trans sex workers. It kind of paints us as buffoons, sort of the old step and fetch it. Addition, then the trope of you know, fighting over the affection of some ne'er do well sis male you know, yeah, exactly, like why is that always our ultimate prize? You know, like surely there's nothing else that trans women could possibly want than some random CIS losers. And that is putting it nicely, honestly, Like chester Chester sucks. Yeah,

he's garbage. I mean, I I I speak only for myself, but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of especially contemporary trans women, when I say many of us do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles or ways of being or identities, because our experiences with six men are so negative and at a certain point, you feel like, is this worth my time? Is this something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never really raised in any depiction of trans women that I

have ever seen. There's always this element of us longing for the affection of this class. I I don't know why. Yeah, I totally see your point. The first I've seen this movie a few times now, Um, I love it. I think it's such a long romp, And of course I'm coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming at it with blind spots, with our backgrounds. So I hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of

buffoonery that is arguably displayed. I always sort of interpreted that is, Oh, but they're fun, and they're they're just you know, they're goofy, and we're seeing like rather than a tragic story, which is how many transnarratives play out. We're seeing a fun a fun romp. So that was like always my kind of like, you know, just interpretation

of that. But I totally see your point. And I had to look at that, you know, numerous times, because is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know, slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would be very problematic as well. Um, but I think for me, it's a matter of looking at that intersection of black heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation, and when you really look at the then diagram of that,

I think there are some issues raised. You know, we were we've been talking a lot about how, I mean, the fact that the movie is written and directed by sis white guys as well. Um, yeah, likely you know if factors into a lot of what's going on within the movie that maybe doesn't match up quite well, and

how to lead actresses in this movie. We're not credited as writers even though they had a huge influence on what happened in the story, and then ultimately all the credit going back to you know, the the tissue grad um is exhausting So that was the first time you had seen it? Is that right? Is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? And it was interesting. Is My partner is also non binary trans their gender fluid though, but it was their second or third time saying it. And they're more a

fan of like queer cinema. So we've been they've been like taking me on this tour of all the queer classics and you know, kind of realizing some holes and blind spots and a lot of the films that a lot of us felt were formative, you know, just because at that time the people that were in the writing room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the people in the writing rooms who are part of the community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative

that makes That makes a ton of sense. We hadn't even come at it from that angle. That makes a ton of sense. Um, Is there any I mean not to we don't want to put you on the spot, but what would you like to see more from in terms of trans representation in in film in general and black trans representation. Yeah, I guess what I would really like to see would be I guess the happy medium, you know, the happy medium, even if we're we're going to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I

I get why that trope is still useful. Um, but even if we're going to do that, I would like it to be maybe a happy medium between say Tangerine and Pose, where you have these realistic, average looking, perhaps quote unquote nonpassable trans sex workers who are empowered, not necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but

actually flourishing, thriving. Maybe a montage sort of show where maybe you have the U trans call girl and then you of the trans businesswoman and you know, the trans whatever this dude does, he's a but you know, just allow us to be human being and not just the sort of trout either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity

or sexualization things of that sort. Absolutely. Yeah, And as we've been discussing, you know, representation is often unless it's representation of like assist white wealthy men who there's an abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talked

about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It goes from erasure to negative representation, two steps in the right direction to positive representation, and it feels like we're still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase in terms of trans representation in film and t and Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the right direction, but maybe not what we want to see ideally, especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit

for writing the script and things like that are white sis men telling the story of black trans women. Yeah, I don't know, would you would you agree with that assessment that, you know, Tangerine's a step in the right direction. I think it will definitely be included in the cannon long term. You know, I think Tyler Perry still has his place within black cinema. That doesn't mean I'm going to necessarily watch a Tyler Perry movie on purpose. Um,

media isn't your favorite? Yeah, you have to spring Tyler Perry on someone get to walk in the room and it's already been on for forty five minutes and you're like, all right, it's too late. Um. Any other any other thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep you friends well. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been so wonderful. Um, give us your your plugs. Where can people follow you online? Anything you'd like to plug?

Oh yeah, well I'm gonna behave um. So I think one of the more fun places to follow me is on Instagram at mixed at Dahlia Bell, Mix thing an x dot Dahlia Bell. You could also follow me on Facebook at Dahlia dalis Bell or mix Dahlia Bell when it is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram. This is way too long of an exploration us. Keep keep going. We want to keep me want to follow

you everywhere. Okay, if you follow my personal Facebook page, it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that I experienced every morning around two am, of course. But my instagram are really cute pictures of me, so that that's really where you should get. What a great balance though, of depending on the vibes that you're seeking, there's always there's a lot of options, there's always thank you, Thank you so much again, Thank you you were wonderful. Have

a good day. Yeah, thanks again, Dahlia And now we're back with Kai Choyce. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings, feelings. Yeah, I talk to us about your feelings. Kind So I just think everyone should should know that. Um, if you got to go to donut time, you're very lucky. It was. They actually have really good donuts there. But it later became a tray host tacos, and then it became a tray host donuts, and now it might be nothing. Sue, I don't know. I don't think it's doing very well.

I could be wrong, but I just I don't see people there ever. I haven't either. I know, I passed there a couple of days ago. No aim that we were going to watch this movie. I was like, goddamn, seven years. Seven years makes all the difference. I feel like a lot of a lot of stories that portray sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency from the characters and to kind of denigrade the experience.

And you don't see that happening here. In every situation, the women seem to be very in control of the situation, regardless of whether or not that is always the case in real life with these characters. Like even with with Resumek, you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women, and the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up. It ends up, you know, getting this ship kicked out, which is sure karma baby, uh yeah. And and and

that the story. I mean, the story covers a lot of ground, but every character gets a full arc, And the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between Cindy and Alexandra. And like, I just it's really fun to see, especially like a female friendship that you see have ups and downs and it's not just like a perfectly written like we're best friend, we always get along, everything's great, la la la. It's like they disagree with each other every other second, but there is such a

clear bond. Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry um as performers that it just like it just holds the movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot picture two different performers in this movie like they make the movie. I mean they were like good friends in real life too, yes, before they were cast yep. Yeah. I feel like the the iPhones got more more airtime than they needed to in this Like people talked about the iPhones more than they talked about myan Kiki is

we gotta we gotta turn that around. Another thing kind of piggyback on um, what you were saying just a moment ago, Kai is the way sex work is often portrayed in movies and media. Another thing will do I think it's like a plot device is treated as like a plot device that a character needs to overcome, right that, Um, you know, a life that the characters are trying desperately to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but that isn't really a component of this movie, at least

not on the day that we see these characters. But then another thing is, like I think that sex workers will often be characterized in such a way that they are shown as having like no moral compass almost or that they wouldn't care sex means nothing to them, or they don't they can't form real human relationships, so they would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or you know, anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on.

Just yeah, another thing that humanizes these characters. And this movie also does a thing that's kind of subtle, but every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker characters tell a story like from their childhood. Like there's one little anecdote where Alexandra is like, Oh, I had a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub, and then I think maybe she's like the Madame of the party room. But she says something like, yeah, me and my sister would always like I would. Is that

what it says? I'm her LinkedIn like like it. Yeah, I don't know exactly what the best terminology is, but I love the embellish credits. Fancy she um. She says something like, yeah, me, my sister would go to these dances when we were kids, and we're supposed to bring a boy, but I could never find boys. What I would take. I had to go dance with my sister and it was just like stories of them like and it's like, yes, like sex workers used to be children.

They have interiority, they have feelings, they have jealousy, they have like the whole range of emotions. That's a right, that's the trip. They say, if you're ever kidnapped by a serial killer, you should tell them a story involving your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself to a complete stranger, because being a kid supposedly it works much better than screaming let me go. So in this kid, the movie is the kidnapped and we are

the serial killers. It's it's true. That's I feel like a common misstep in movies in general, as just um, when you're trying to subvert a narrative. The message is more like I'm not like the other girls, I'm like this. But what this movie does is just say these are these characters. They're like this, They're the movie is not comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is a night in the life of these characters, like take it or leave it, and it seems like everyone wanted

to take it. My cat is, be honest, someone's cat. She's so cute. Awflee. I wanted to really quickly touch on Resmique and his family. Resmik is not the central character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to um just bring up because he is. He is an Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see

them represented. And I did a little out of research on this because I mean, you do get this movie does such a great job of giving every character like an interior life. And so for Resmique, he's dealing with his mother in law. You know, he's he's perhaps misrepresenting how he spends his time to his family. We're not exactly sure, um, but we we see that he has a home life. We see that he has his own interior struggles, and that is not something that is usually

lent to an Armenian character, because Armenian characters. UM. I did a little research just to kind of confirm. It was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've seen on in pop culture really at all, And representation for Armenian people Kardashian's aside is extremely low. Most of the examples you'll find are on TV UM, and they're usually characterized rather violently. UM. You'll see Armenian characters often pop up on like shows like The Sopranos, as like

mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters. When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a very particular way. And so you know, again Rasmik and

his family are not the center of the movie. But I do think it's like many things this movie does, it is a step in the right direction, because I mean, in in movies about l A in general, you are seeing one zip code in a gigantic city, like you're seeing Beverly Hills, usually the Class Warfare zip code, and it is a gigantic and many parts of it are are wonderful and cool, um, but you don't get to

see most of those parts. And so I thought it was really nice to see an Armenian family represented, and I sincerely hope that um, that continues to happen moving forward and we get to see all sorts of Armenian characters. I would have loved to see more of Rasm's wife. Um, his wife, No, she does, she does have a name, her name is Eva, but I would have loved to see more of her. And like, so, yeah, that's a yet another thing that this movie does that most movies

about Los Angeles do not. I agree, and UH to our Armenian listeners, UM, if you have any other other examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of Armenian people, let us know, because we'd like to check those out and refer us to UH works and characters that that are that are worth covering. We're always listening.

But yeah, there there have been some pieces written in the past several years about how extremely limited there's one character on the Sopranos, there's a series of characters on the Shield. Okay, there's a character on Weeds, and then there's the Kardashians. End of list. Um, so we do need more Armenian representation. Yes, Um, does Tangerine pass the Bechdel test for sure? Lots lots and lots between a bunch of difference between all sorts of pairings of characters.

And again, the main like, like we've said, the relationship that's really at the core of this movie is the friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And they talk all the time about I'm sure they're talking about Chester sometimes, but other times they're talking about fish, they're talking about Dinah, there's talking about like Alexander's performance and singing and you know, all all kinds of stuff. Dina and Cindy talk at

length as well. Uh. There is conversation between Resumeque's um wife and her mother that is usually concerning him, but there are a few line exchanges that don't and they it can earn their daughter. And there's a lot of This movie passes a whole bunch for sure. All that to say, Yeah, also another rare example of a movie that passes the Vito Russo test passes then a test the Vito Russo test um. It basically examines if there are any queer characters in the movie at all, and

if removing them would impact the plot at all. Basically, they have to be essential to the story and they can't be They cannot only be identified by their queerness. They have to have like other characteristics and interiority. So this movie very handily passes that test. Like I said, the DuVernay test um, kind of all of them, it really hits all the marks as far as our nipple scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its

representation of women. And also part of me wants to kind of retool our nipple scale a bit, I know, but I think it would behoove us to kind of just reword it or like read to a little bit to it being more about like, how does this movie fair from an intersectional feminist point of view? So either way, looking at it from either version of our nipple scale. Um, it gets pretty top marks. I think I'm going to give a bit of four point five. The fact that it is a what I think is a good step

in the right direction of trans representation, black trans representation specifically. Also, we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro Latina, which is another representation we often don't get in media in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character

as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot of things very well, as we've discussed the humanization of sex workers and sex work and the focus on the friendship between Cindy and Alexandra, and um, the fact that a story, again a story about black trans sex workers is fodder for like tragedy porn, and that's not what this movie was at all. It was a funny genres in one. Yeah. I I loved all those things. I love this movie. I'm gonna watch it every Christmas and

this is the Christmas movie, right. Yeah, So where it gets taken off for me is again this idea of, well, the only way we're going to be allowed to tell, like learn about trans people or hear their stories is through the lens of sis white men at this moment in history. You know, this should have been a movie made by trans filmmakers. So um step step um. So yeah four point five and I will give I'll split

my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Yeah, I was going to go, I think a four play to five on this movie. I I feel weird marking it much higher, because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going for it in terms of representation, I do still feel like I always get a bit of like a when you look up the director and you find out, okay,

this is and um. Something that bugs me that we we discussed a little bit as well, is that the director goes on to leverage the success of this movie into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does not involve any of the cast from Tangerine, and we haven't seen um really many actors from this movie since, even in that same director's work. And I do feel like, particularly if you are an n y U guy who and I'm not saying that you know he didn't do

a great job. I think he did, but I do feel like you you you cannot in good faith use to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like that is just you can't. You can't, you can't. Um. Other than that, I do um agree with everything you said, Caitlin. I love the representation of black trans women. I love the friendship. I love that it's a romp. Uh just there's it's so so, so so funny. Um and I

credit you know of it to the lead actresses. They're so so good. And and also you know, you get a representation of just a lot of Los Angeles that you normally wouldn't. You have the picture of an Armenian immigrant family, you have their you know, sex worker representation. This movie has got everything. Uh so so yeah, I'll go uh four point too fun five. I will give two to Cindy, two to Alexandra, and one quarter two

Rasmics baby. Oh oh. I thought you could say resmics dog, but that's probably I would have given it to the dog. I mean that's just me different people. Yes, how about you?

I want to I want to say a four, and I would say the only reason I'm not giving it a five is because of the issues that you guys brought up, but also because there was a little bit of a Tarantino is um going on here where I think that anytime you have a white characters using the N word to display how terrible of a person they are, it should at least there should be a black person directing it or writing it or or something, because by

all appearances they got that pass from which was not necessary. They were terrible enough as it. As it went right, you could replace the N word with a monster energy drink in the hand, and you know, we get the same impression, and we get it. We get it. Yeah, well, Kai, thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me this fun. Yeah, good to good to see you. It's been a while. Um, Where can people follow your stuff? Check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my

podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill. It is a true crime comedy podcast and the focus of each episode is a lady who is a murderer, so we don't talk about any dudes who rape and murder unless they're part of a couple, which it's only happened a couple of times. You can also find me on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's k A. I c H O y C E and uh, I mean that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days. Maybe one day we'll be back to it, but otherwise

you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me being highly inappropriate on social media. I really thoroughly enjoy your social media presence, if I may say thank you. Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at bachtel Cast. We've got a Patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus episodes, plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes. And um, you guys gotta start using protagonist. By the way,

Protagonia it in. You can have it. Thanks, thanks for tuning in, See you next time. Hi,