Stepford Wives (1975 and 2004) with Zoe Ligon

wanted to make you some coffee. Why would you do that? Truly high comedy? Well, I was gonna try. I should have added the word like, a word like podcast into that there. There could have been a transformative joke and it didn't come. Hey, but this is the Bedel Cast. Here's the thing I've been. I've been switched out with an inferior model, and that's why I did that the way I did. Yeah, well, I here's the thing. I love you so much more now, thank you so much.

I've given up my dreams of being a photographer. And um, I am wearing a sheer nightie at all times. She cooks as good as she looks. Today's episode, I feel like It's been a kind of a long time coming. We've been getting this request pretty steadily over the years, so I'm excited to talk about it. This is the

Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Toronte, and this is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, and that what is it even? I don't Oh my god, I've been I've been turned into a robot, and I don't remember the things I used to know. Oh my god. Okay, the seventies robot is so much scarier than the two thousand

four robots. I'm just saying the alien eyes, Okay. The Bectel Test is a media metric originally created by queer cartoonists Alison Bechdel, is sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test that, for the purposes of our show, requires that two people of a marginalized gender with names talk to each other. Uh for uh, Well, I guess we're kind of changing this. They're talking to they have to talk to each other about not a man. Uh. And we're we're switching it up,

aren't we? Caitlin, I mean that we have I guess, two different ways because we used to say for two lines of dialogue, but then we were making a change so that it's like some sort of plot impactful interaction. Yeah, so as to get rid of the like what would you like for dinner? Cheese? Like, you know, like non interactions kind of Yeah, I hadn't that was like something that I was going to pay attention to it. Yeah, if we but if we want to implement it for

the whole show, I'm down. Yeah. I feel like it could just be cannon because what There's been so many movies over the years that have gotten away with some really like heinous ones that like and sometimes they're really funny. But I feel like, um, yeah, it should at least like I don't know, I guess it's kind of the like you'll know it when you hear it, Like it doesn't need to be like influencing the next plot point,

but it's just a meaningful interaction. Whatever beautiful means. What are interesting the movie to apply the test to, because arguably the conversations they are having most of the time are about what nefarious plans the men have and more they're already robots, So if they've already been impacted by the men, can they really have a conversation about anything that isn't related to house cleaning. Let's take this, Let's take this new version for a spin. Does sounds good

to me? And with that, let's properly introduce our our guests. She is a sex edutainer. She is the owner of Spectrum Boutique and author of Carnal Knowledge. It's Zoe Ligan been so excited to talk about this, well, these films. I'm a huge horror and thriller fan. And while the two thousand's version of this film is hardly spooky, um, you know it's it plays on some very real world fears. You know that the men in our lives are secretly plotting against us at all times, like could be some

truth to it? Hard to say. This is also one of the I would say, one of the better Larry and so, so okay, we're talking about Originally we were going to just talk about the two thousand four movie, but then we all watched both, so it's an episode about both. But I would say that this is one of my top Larry King cameos, not on b Larry King in B movie level, I think that's kind of the golden standard for Larry King cameos. But this was

a pretty good one. At the end, I thought, agree that it's nowhere near his his peak, which is of course in B movie. I mean, unbelievable Christopher Walkin Christopher. I just so many good at Midler, so many good, good, like wonderful actors in this two thousand four version, and like, but they're just like they're not given very much. They are not. So what is your history with the Stepford Wives? Um, just overall any of the movies interacting with the property

in general. Absolutely. I watched the two thousand and four movie probably right when it came out. I then was such a fan that I owned it on DVD, watched it many times. I was so excited to rewatch it for this podcast because I knew it was going to be one of those films that was like deeply embedded in my psyche, and and it was exactly as I expected. There was like little moments that like I like unlocked parts of my memory, Like especially the Docy dough scene

where she's twirling out of control. I was just like, I'll never forget this part O. My god. I hadn't seen the seventy five version and decided to watch it the night before. I watched the two thousand and four version, and I am so glad I did, because what a different film. I mean a premise. I mean the main difference between a comedy and a horror is people living versus people dying. So you know, very different outcomes, similar premise, And now I want to read the book. I haven't

read it. Same yeah, same. This is the second adapted I mean, like really famous adapted property from this author, because this is the same author as Rosemary's Baby that we've covered covered a couple of years ago. Um Ira eleven so kind of an iconic writer who very often wrote about the expectations of women. Um So there you go. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your history with this stuff? For wise, I saw the two thousand four movie at a drive in movie theater in two thousand four when it came out. This

is a good drive in movie. Yeah yeah, I had just graduated high school because it came out June two four, so I think I probably like went with either some friends or my mom, who knows, But I saw it at the drive in, and I think that was the only time I had ever seen it, and I did not I had not seen the version, but I did watch it the other night, so I'm fully prepped to talk about others. Just oh my gosh, there's so much to cover, Jamie, really, what about you mine? I think

kind of similar. I remember watching The two thousand four when at a sleepover shortly after it came out. Good sleepover movie, Yeah, yeah, and really liking it. And I remember being like, oh, it's like, I don't know, being like young enough that I was like, oh, it's Inspector Gadget and Carella de Ville and the lady from Milan Rouge and oh. I remember my aunt being like Faith Hill in a movie because she well, really this was

the two thousand four. One was a fun rewatch for the high volume of two thousand four themed jokes in it, like a Vigo Mortenson joke, Orlando Bloom, Orlando Bloom, Meredith Vieira Is has a really strong cameo like early two thousands reality shows, just a kind of a lot of stuff I did that felt was like normal at the time that I'm like, whoa, this is David. I'm really

getting old. Um. And then I saw the seventies when over the summer, I kind of just like watched it on a whim and like really really really liked it, um, And it was like it was fun to go back and watch again because they feel like it. I don't know, it's it's the strengths that these adaptations have are very different. Where it's like it feels like the two thousand four when the pacing of it, in the look of it, it's like it keeps it moving. It's it goes quick.

The seventies one can drag a little bit. But then I mean, I'm are excited to talk about how the like the two thousand four one got studio notes into saying nothing by the end, Like God, I honestly forgot. Yeah, I forgot how the two thousand four one ended so differently. I was like, damn, they really thought they were doing something there. That's wild. Um. Yeah, And I should read the book, but I simply we don't read books on

this podcast. Before we'll stay it again. I almost reread the Da Vinci Code, but it wasn't It wasn't available at the library, and they're too busy with your rhinestone Swordfish. My rhine Stone Swordfish is killing me. Like I'm so, I'm so late on so many things. But I have you know, I have like two hours left of my rent Stone Swordfish and then I can move on with my life. So what I've done for this is I'll

recap the two thousand four one. But I feel like then we can just go into in our discussion, we can just like note the differences and similarities and stuff like that. That's that's my plan. Okay. So the two thousand four adaptation of Stepford Wives opens on Joanna Eberhart. That's Nicole Kidman. She's the president of a TV network. She's literally dressed like Elizabeth Holmes. It's like the girl

Boss while she's in full girl Boss made. She's at an awards show presenting a few like popular reality shows that she has worked on. Um but everything goes hey wire when a man who had been screwed over by one of her programs, Yes, I can do better the show. I can't believe they made Nedge s Neebly the Assassin

to move. What a plot line that just throw in there, really, because hell, what happens is that he shows up and tries to shoot Joanna and had also shot his wife and several of her lovers that she met on the reality And it's like all of all of Joanna's reality shows are very early two thousands in that they're like the theme is a very rigid gender binary like and that's the whole show. But the movie wants you to think, like, oh, look how empowering these shows are for women, But it's

like by early two thousands standards. So see, I wasn't even sure. Like there was so many moments in this movie where I was like, is this like I know that they is it satire to them? Or is it am I supposed to? Like? It's so totally confusing because it's like looks like a satire. Everything is so over the top and how it's stylized and presented, but then

like most of the story doesn't. It's so confusing because I was like, oh, they're like you know, like you know, pair readying this era of reality TV at an eleven, but like I don't. I didn't understand what my takeaway

was supposed to be. Right. Uh So, basically, the network not wanting to be associated with Joanna any longer, they fire her, and being fired gives her a nervous breakdown, and her husband, her husband Uh Walter Cresby played by Matthew Brodrick, comes to visit her in the hospital and she tells him that she wants to get away and start over. So Joanna Walter and their two kids moved to Stepford, Connecticut, which is this extremely wealthy, extremely white,

gated community. They arrive and are greeted by Claire Wellington played by Glenn Close. She shows them around the neighborhood and she points out the Men's Association, which is this giant country club type place where the men of the community hang out. Uh and then she says that the women slash wives of the community hang out in this day spa. So Joanna meets all of them and they

are all rocking this like nineteen fifties housewife aesthetic. They're creepy, they're weird, except for one woman who she meets who appears to be normal. Bobby marco Witz and her her husband Dave played by John Lovetts and John high school

high um. And then they also meet a gay couple Jerry and Roger, and Joanna and Bobby befriend Roger, but then something happens at this Fourth of July party where one of the wives Sarah Sunderson, that's Faith Hill, right, I think, yes, yeah, I could not pick Faith Hill out of a lineup to save my life. That's kind of her thing. She is. My aunt was obsessed with Faith Hill. So I've got I've got the radar, God,

i gotta got it. So Sarah Sunderson, she can't stop spinning around this is and it's almost as if she's a robot whose malfunction. That was another thing that struck me about the two thousand four when they give it away so early there's no mystery to it at all. To find that in the first scene, you're like, oh, yeah, Faith Hill is clearly a robot. Well I have a theory about that. So yeah, the main narrative device and

the two one is suspense, whereas the is mystery. And for anyone, for any listeners out there who were like, what's the difference, but satically suspenses when the audience knows more than the characters, and mysteries, when the characters an audience know the same amount of or no or don't know the same amount of information, that distinction. Thank you so much. Um I teach the screenwriting classes. Anyway, I would just starting. I mean, I just think that it

fails in this one. It's well. My my theory for that is that because Stepford Wives as a concept was already so familiar to everyone, there's no point in trying to like make it a mystery in this in this movie by two thousand four, even as a tween, I knew, I knew what I was signing up for going into it, right, So they were like, well, let's just do it suspense because everyone already knows has a general idea of what a Stepford Wife is. So that's I'm guessing why they

did that. But anyway, so Mike Wellington ak Christopher Walkin shows up and he fixes Sarah Sunderson. Um, Joanna is like, what the fuck? Um, she's also wearing like all black to this like Fourth of July party where that's covered in pastels, and she looks she's like wearing like a cocktail dress. That's right, I do love it. And then Joanna's husband, Walter gaslights her and makes her think that everything's fine and that she has to change herself and

fit into this community. So Joanna starts wearing pastels and doing household chores. And then she, Bobby and Roger go to visit Sarah Sunderson to see if she's all right, and they find what is clearly a remote control that controls Sarah. I would love to have one of these, just like a replica prop at remote. It's a good prop it is, yeah, But they're like and they're toying around with it, and we see like Sarah b controlled by it in the background, but they are not privy

to what's happening, so they still don't know. It's still suspense. Meanwhile, Walter does learn what's going on, which is that the Stepford women are robots, but we find out that that's not even true, that they've just been like nano chipped in their brain way more way, more friendly too, because you know, there is no death and murder occurring. It's like, oh,

it just modified your brain. This is a comedy now, right, because in the in the book and in the seventies version, the wives are being murdered and then replaced with lookalike and like androids that only have like huge pupils for eyes. They're so scary. Yeah. Um, but anyway, so the Stepford women or Stepford wives are being turned into these like perfect little housewives that look hot and wait on the

men hand and foot. So Joanna and Bobby they know something strange is going on, so they sneak into the men's association to investigate, but they get caught and have to run away. But then it seems that Roger, their friend Roger, has gotten the like step for treatment because he's suddenly completely different. He's running for political office now, even though he's an architect. He's a yeah, he's suddenly a Republican. Yeah, to appease his husband, yes, what is

the husband wanted from him all along? And another Republican husband never? Oh god, so scary. And then Joanna is like, that's it, Walter, we're leaving, and he's like, okay, we'll leave tomorrow. And that night Joanna finds the remote control with her name on it, and so she starts to do some research and she discovers that all of these Stepford women were formerly powerful career women. They were CEOs, they were judges, there were a bunch of girl bosses.

But obviously they are completely different persona wise, looks wise, et cetera from who they are now. So Joanna goes to Warren Bobby, but oh no, they've already gotten to Bobby. Yeah, Bobby's portrayed as like borderline horder when we first meet Bobby, to really emphasize the dichotomy, I mean, you know, not that bad. But there's this dramatic scene. It's like, oh, where's the floor. I can't see the floor. It looks like she's like a freshman in college. More like a

freshman in college. Yeah. Um. So the next thing that Joanna knows, she is surrounded by all the men, and Walter's like, I'm tired of you being better than me at everything. And then Mike Wellington Christopher Walkin explains the whole process or they take the women, they insert nano chips into their brains and program them to be these complacent trophy wife women. They then do the process to Joanna and turn her into a Stepford wife, or so we think this scene, this is where it's like, what

is going on? That scene? That scene where it's imagined like I will get there. I was so I was so frustrated by the end of this movie. Yes, but then Walter, I guess, realizes the error of his ways or something. They make out. They kiss, and which like upsets me because I'm like, oh, you just learned your husband wants to make you a robot and you just

go kiss him like this. But this is what wakes him up, and he's like, oh, I shouldn't have gone like all of a sudden, it's like, wait a minute, I love my wife nothing yet, like for even that. But it's like when they're sinking into the floor, we have to think that Joanna does think she's about to be turned into a row. There's telepathically communicated, and he's like, actually, I'm not gonna It's like Jamie, a kiss is telepathic communication. If it's true love between a husband and wife, of

course it's oh my god. I was like, how is she not breaking up with him? He was so ready to turn her into a robot? Like, so why is it she running away? No consequences here, right, Oh there's yeah, there's so much to talk about their um but anyway, so there's this big ball that happens, and Walter speaks away and hacks into the main frame and starts reversing all of these stufford programming in the women's brains, and it turns out that Joanna had not actually been transformed

into a Stepford wife. She was just faking it too. I guess, create a diversion. Um. And then Mike Wellington is like, well to you suck and he goes to attack him. But then Joanna hits Mike not coming. Um. She she knocks Mike Wellington Christopher Walkins head off because it turns out he's a robot. This was more fun. This was like more fun. Yeah, this this is a fun moment. So it turns out that Claire Wellington had programmed her robot husband Mike to do her bidding. The

whole Stepford wife thing was her idea. She like explains her master plan and her motivations and stuff. It mostly makes sense kind of. How she managed to get away with a double homicide and then take over a small town is just we don't know. We don't know what I mean. You have to hand it to her. Women are powerful, um and I have fruit feminist icon when you think about it. Um. Then she accidentally electrocutes herself to death I think by kissing Christopher Watkins robot head.

Oh yeah, the disembodied head. Yes, this is hilarious. Then we cut two six months later, where Joanna, Bobby and Roger are guests on Larry King at the rest known as b Larry King be Larry King. Um. They've done this whole like expose about the Stepford community. Um. And then we cut to the men of Stepford now doing all of the domestic chores because they're like under house arrest. And then now they they're the ones who go grocery shopping bern the And let's take a quick break and

then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. We're back. Should we go over just kind of like the some of the broader differences between the two movies before we kind of jump in because they Kaitlie, you like broke down perfectly how the genres are different and how it's you know, unless you had rent the book, you know, you would go into the movie not knowing that the women is robots now and so it really like builds that tension throughout of like, well what is going on here?

But I really like what I liked so much more about the one is that you get to like know the people who live there in a meaningful way. And so it's it just like I think that that's like the main that and the way that it ends is like, oh, this is clearly satire. This is clearly saying something. Because at the end of the seventy five movie, um, there is no secret Walter was good the whole time, and she's turned into a Stepford wife. That's how it ends.

She's murdered by her alien double, which is super fucking scary, and she becomes a Stepford wife and it is like this, you know, commentary on womanhood at this time, and there's

you know it. It certainly has its flaws, but at least it's like there's a clear point, uh there's I feel like you got a lot more out of the Joanna Bobby friendship in the seventy one as well, because they are like actively investigating what's going on for the whole like they like try to start a women's club and they and I also thought that Joanna's I don't know,

I'm curious what you what you both think here. I thought that Joanna's job situation made more sense to me in the seventy one as well, Like, I think it's funny that they chose for her to be a high powered reality show producer in the two thousand four one, but it doesn't really come in anywhere like where in the seventies one. Joanna isn't a aspiring photographer, and it felt to me kind of like she she was not yet successful. She's kind of nagged by her husband for

having this dream. She's insecure about it, and it's like a part of her character. And then she she like gets closer to her goals, and the closer she gets to her goals, the more her husband resents it like it just has like an active part of the story. I mean, there weren't as many women's CEOs in nineteen Also, I think you're a percent right that it's a sign

of the times and how it was portrayed. Yeah. The other thing is the one thing I do like about the two thousand four version, which, as you would expect from a movie made in two thousand four, doesn't get this quite right or go all the way. But the two thousand four version focuses more on like the commentary being made, because both movies are providing commentary to varying

degrees of you know, efficacy and success. But the two thousand four version focuses on male fragility and like comments on male fragility in terms of like the men feel inferior to and emasculated by their powerful wives, so they basically turn the women into these complacent, trophy wife like domestic robots with no personality and no autonomy so that

they can feel superior again. And that's like a very real thing because you know, the patriarchy conditions men to think that they should be like superior and if they, like, if they make less money or if they don't have as impressive or powerful as a job, then they are inferior to you know, the women in their lives. So yeah, there's a power imbalance in the two thousand and four one that doesn't exist in the seventies version, right, And I think that's like an interesting and worthwhile thing to

comment on. But again, like the two thousand four one makes a bunch of other really weird choices that make this like not the most effective. Jerry, Yeah, I felt like on this rewatch, I felt I was kind of bummed.

I left like not liking the two thousand four one as much as I feel like I poked a little my little nostalgia balloon for it, because it's just I feel like we we really don't know that much about any of the characters to the point where it's like, even when they're making those like really you know, clear points about like you know, Walter feels emasculated and like all this other stuff, it just the pacing of how

we got there felt really strange. Like the way the characters reacted to things was like just kind of I don't know, it felt off where Joanna, you know, Walter is like I need you to completely change who you are, and Joanna, who we are led to believe is this like really headstrong person, is like, oh my god, you're right okay, and then all of a sudden, like Walter flips to super filling really quickly, and it's like I just wish I knew a little more about both of

them to understand like how that happened. It just felt like,

I don't know. Even even though it's it makes sense that you need to update the roles and try, you know, try to like reflect where gender roles were at in the year the movies being made, like of course it should be different from the seventies one, but it just felt like, I don't know, like things just happened so like clunquily, like when he was were either of you thrown off when Matthew Brodrick was like, you can't wear black anymore, and and then she's like, okay, I guess

I'm never going to wear black again. I'm like, this isn't who I was told this character was. Like. He says, only high powered, neurotic castrating Manhattan career bitches where black, It's that what you want to be. And she says, ever since I was a little girl, which is funny. I'm like, okay, that's like girl Boss canon. Okay, that's horrific, but also it's like who funck Like it's I don't know,

it's it seems like and I guess. Reading about the production of the two thousand four one, it seems it seems like Frank Oz who also this movie was directed by Yoda Um crystal Um, it seems like he really wanted to go full satire in lines like that, You're like, okay, that's like where the full satire is, but then it it Scholarly journal Wikipedia indicates that Paramount was like, really not okay with the level of satire he wanted to do in the level of over the toppiness, and so

they made him change the entire ending, which kind of undercuts everything. And I would, I mean it, I bet that there's like a funny satirical movie that was like shot but it just like was not really ended up on the chopping floor. Whatever's bummer because it's like there's a ton of like potent. I would. I would like to understand their relationship a little better because it it

end up kind of like I don't know. I liked that scene where Walter was like, I feel emasculated and threatened by you, And I liked that Joanna in that scene didn't apologize and she was like, yeah, like you're really lucky to be married to me. You're lucky and I am better at sex and I was not going to didn't mine that the line I remember from the original watching as well, that's so funny. I just wish I understood more about their relationship, or their relationship made

more sense to me. I don't know, because like, how could the husband turn on you know, it's like if we're going to believe, okay, like he could turn on her in this instant, Like I want to know more context for what that relationship was like if they have kids together, Clearly they've been together a few years at least, and they also disappear their children in this one, I

was like, what did you even bother having them? But also, like Walter, it doesn't make sense because he leaves his also very high powered job as a TV network vice president. He's just like one step below her. Also, if he leaves that job, how do they afford living in this mansion? But anyway, like why would he got good severance after ed sneeply came after? But if his whole thing was like I want to be more powerful than my wife, like,

wouldn't he keep his powerful anyway? More importantly, I think the problem here is that in the two thousand four version, which I didn't see in the nineteen version, was that Joanna's character is so wildly inconsistent in the two thousand four versions because like, first she gets fired and then she's like, maybe the man who tried to shoot me was right, Maybe I've become the wrong kind of woman, And it's just like, okay, well, like there's nothing wrong

with self reflection, but like for you to be like the man who shot me he was right, uh, is because she's unbothered right after it happened, as well as unbothered to like two minutes after, she's like, oh my god, I'm totally fine, going like you need to sit down, honey, just like capitalism has enshrouded me and a bulletproof vest

of money. Like it's so I I thought that maybe what my guest was of what they were going for was that like, she's a very high powered executive, but she also has this deep insecurity, which is like that's worth exploring, but it just it doesn't come through, and it does come out as like inconsistent, right because the next thing is they arrive in Stepford, she like right away notices that things are weird, especially with the women, but Walter's like, no, things are actually really normal, and

like part of this is like I don't want to fault her because she's very clearly being gas lit by her husband, but she just keeps kind of flip flopping where like then she's like, Okay, you're right, I'm a mess. I'm gonna start, you know, wearing pink and doing and like baking cupcakes. But then a few scenes later she's like, no, way,

things are really weird. And then a few scenes later she's like, no, I'm going to join the book club and then a few scenes later she's like, no, I should investigate, Like it's just like she's just going on this like loop of doing one eighties all the time. But in the version, the Joanna character is like consistently like something is really fucked up about this community. She doesn't like ever waiver from trying to figure out what's

going on or like thinking that something is amiss. So I think it's just like kind of a poor writing choice to make Joanna so inconsistent. I agree, even though it's like, I mean, in the seventies when we're clearly in you know, second wave feminism, and there are so many elements of it that kind of dated. But it's I just liked her journey a little more because it was even though there are moments in the two or in the nine seventies one where she does kind of

try to appease her husband. She's like, I'm sorry, like I I didn't, but it makes sense in context at least, Like it's it doesn't seem like she's just like doing a one eighty for no reason. It's like, oh, she feels guilty because her husband is telling her she should feel guilty, and like just kind of this like the subtle negging that takes place in their relationship over time, I thought was like pretty effective and like more realistic than than you know, how the two thousand four characters

interact with each other one. It's also set up in such a way where the husband Walter was plotting all along to have her turned into a robot. There's this revelation in the one that he'd already put a down payment on the house before she had even signed off on the house, and she brings that up as you know, their dirty laundry that they've clearly, you know, been having

arguments about. But it's very clear that he was pulling strings to influence her to move out to Stepford, whereas in the two thousand and four one it seems like, you know, there was no ulterior motive all along, and it just they just stumble into this world of robots instead of like, I'm gonna blackmail my wife and convince her to move out to the country. And also we don't really have any contexts for as to why they

leave New York in the one. We see this scene in the beginning of one where they're loading into the car. Somewhat random person is carrying a mannequin around in New York City and one of the kids goes like, I just saw a guy carrying a naked lady daddy or something like that, and one of them goes, Yep, that's why we're moving to Stepford, so we don't have to see that anymore. Like it's like the depraved city of New York is what has scared them away into the

safe suburbs. Almost. Yeah, I kind of was wondering. It was like I wonder I sort of assumed that that was like a commentary of the time of like the suburban culture of the seventies and like the ways that people would like the reasons people would have for justifying a move like that, and even it's like it's interesting to watch Joanna kind of slowly be like I didn't

want or that. She's kind of right away like I don't really want to be here and like I can't pursue my dreams the way I want to here, and he's kind of like, no, no, no, you did this was like basically your idea, and this is a good idea, and you can take pictures wherever, so like shut up and go to bed. Yeah, we can make a dark room for you, like right right, and like it's I

don't know, I thought that. I mean, the one is like a William Goldman script, so it's like also, I think, just in the hands of a really icon incapable writer. But like the deterioration of their relationship is more trackable. I don't like, I don't understand why she's married to him, but I never understand why, why why straight couples are married. So it's like that's kind of a wash. But in the in the two thousand four one, I totally agree.

So it's like the fact that Walter is not clued in from the beginning kind of like makes his character really confusing, Like I don't know it just they go from playing battle bots in the men's club, they literally have these battle bot robots, and then directly following that and again in the two thousand and four one, another one of the guys like, hey, let me show you

a party trick. Hey, wife, come on over here, and then we have the infamous scene that is what stands out in my mind the most from my original viewing, is inserting a credit card into the wife's now a card, you know, and with drawing cash all of a sudden, all the men look to Walter to like see how he's going to react, because this is the big reveal like look our wives or robots um, which also makes no sense with the fact that they're not really robots,

they just chips in their brain. But so then after a long pregnant pause, he goes she she gives singles, and then everyone like you know, bursts into laughter because oh, thank god he's one of the boys and he gets it. Yeah, And then with him he he they give him this redemption arc because even though he's been gaslighting and just awful to Joanna throughout the whole movie in both movies, but I'm talking specifically about the two thousand four version.

He again, will you touch on this, but so weird that Joanna is just like willingly going to go down into like whatever the the lab or she is going to be turned into a Stepford wive. She's just like, well, I kissed my husband and I guess now she just yeah. So for her to like again so much, that's another part of the inconsistency of her character, where like she's

going like, oh, something's weird. Actually no, I should assimilate and then to the point where she's like, all right, I'm gonna go down here and get turned into a Stepford wive. Whatever. I guess, I accept my fate. Yeah, And then at the end where she got I forget what the exchanges. But it's so corny and like Nicole Kidman's like that's a man talking about did not turn her into a robot? Like, oh my god, because he's a real man. Yeah, what is this the artist stick?

Where he using? What a disaster? Yeah? This is the bar is that's so low for our husbands. Now it's subterranean. It's in the robot basement. Is where the bars. That made me furious because so I like, I get I well, I don't like it, but I understand why this choice was made from like a screenwriting point of view, where like they need the reveal that Joanna isn't actually a

Stepford wife, she was just faking it. But what that does is it gives Walter the opportunity to like basically redeem himself and then like it just gives him more agency because he's the one going around and like liberating all of the women while Joanna is just kind of like sidelined. And then like you said, like it gives He's like, I didn't marry someone something from Radio Shack, and then Christopher Walkin goes like, oh, that's a shame. And then Nicole Kidman is like, no, that's a man.

Why should make her say that? But yeah, the movie wants you to be like wow, feminist icon Walter, what a hero, and we're like no, Like why is he getting this redemption arc? He's a piece of shit. It's so like it's I I don't even super mind. It's like we're going into this the two thousand's one with with like a cultural understanding of what a Stepford wife is. We need to find a new way to like the reveal can't be that their robots, because we know that if we go to see the movie. But this choice

specifically is like, oh my god. Like the early two thousands was such a I feel like, as a lot of media is coming out right now, the late nineties and early two thousands was such a horrible time for for really like any marginalized group. But it's like stuff like this the I'm like, wow, we were like thirty years prior, there was so much more productive discussion in this same story about you know, gender roal expectations, Equal

Rights Amendment was happening right then. The book was written in seventy two, and you know, I don't know when one was filmed, but you know, there was this discussion and like revival of the Equal Rights Amendment for the first time since the twenties. And you know, here we are, and there really hasn't been any revisitation of the Equal Rights Amendment up until the Harvey Weinstein Me Too era. So it's almost like in the early two thousands there was this idea that we were so much further ahead

than we really were. I think it's interesting because it's like, I so we've covered these two IRA eleven adaptations, and it's his I really like, I don't know anything about him personally. I hope he's not horriful he's dead. But in terms of like these two stories, I do think his approach is pretty consistent in that he writes these stories that are that make pretty sharp commentary about the expectations of women in this time. And also in his stories,

the women normally lose. They like fight valiantly against the oppressive patriarchal force, and in both stories they fail, and it's and We like had this discussion a couple of years ago on the Resemaries Baby episode where it's like

we were like, well, what does that mean? And it's like, I think it just kind of unfortunately was like a reflection of a lot of efforts for equality, and like it's not that you know, Rosemary or Joanna were not capable, and it wasn't that they were like you know, not intelligent, were able to figure out what was going on. It

was the great point in both of those stories. Even when they figure out what's going on, they just have that knowledge and then they're crushed by the opposing force anyways, which is like really bleak, but it feels like a more like it's just saying something, whereas like this update of the story is like saying what I don't know,

here's what it's saying. It's saying that because what happens is Claire Wellington becomes the villain, this mastermind of this project in her in her motivation, she explains her motivation and it's then m my, my husband cheated on me with a younger woman, so I had to kill them, and then I had to punish every woman I've ever met ever since then I liked this better when it

was vill mkelly in Chicago. That I mean, and I see what they're trying to if you if I want to give them credit and be like, oh, what's this commentary saying it's like, yes, women can be a huge opposing force, uh, you know, against the liberation of and feminism, etcetera. Um so totally, but just like such poor execution if that was indeed the intended takeaway, right, yeah, we're like even like story wise, like I honestly it's like corny

and it's not really accomplishing what it's trying to. But the Glenn Close reveal at the end, I'm like, fine, sure, Like it kind of reminded me of like the caitl was was the like the Cabin in the Woods reveal at the end where you're like, it was this woman the tie, isn't it Sgourney Weaver at the end of Cabin in the Woods where she was like, I'm the bad I'm the spy, and you're like, alright, I guess, um,

like it's not. It's Glenn Close and she's clutching you know, Christopher Watkins like decapitated head, like android head, exposed wires, sparking, which makes no sense again if it's brain chips, Like, how does any of this happen against gotta suspend your disbelief here. Yeah, it's so I just wish like even story wise there unless I truly was like watching this at zero percent, uh, Like I don't. I didn't feel like there were really many clues given that it just

come for me. It came like out of nowhere. I was like, like, there's no foreshadowing for that twist, which you would think the movie would benefit from. But yeah, like Zoe, you were saying, there are women who are very much a part of like upholding rigid gender roles and like patriarchal standards, like that is unfortunately something that

still happens. But and I don't know if this I don't think this movie is even trying to comment on that, or if it is, it doesn't know how because like Joanna is doing the same thing with her fucking girl

Boss acts. It's like inadvertent perhaps, Well it's that thing that we always talk about where like there have been a bunch of movies written by men that show women being just like really petty and jealous and in competition and like catty toward each other, but they don't take a like even step one to examine why that might be. And they're just like, well, women are petty, so obviously they hate each other. It's the same kind of thing

were like. And I mean I don't even know enough about this about like why certain people, you know, just have ideologies or like vote in certain ways that are in direct opposition of their own self interests. Like that's a very complicated issue. I have theories about why, but like it's a lot of factors involved. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of things. Um, but this movie only goes so far as to say, well, Glenn Cloak Claire Wellington loves romance and beauty and Chiffon and her husband cheated

on her. So yeah, so now she just wants to turn every woman into a beautiful robot lady who will never misbehave it says, yeah, Like it's a very like I was like, we should have put this justification through a few more drafts, like because it's I don't if we have to get to Glenn close is the big bed, like and we have this like woman who's working against the interests of other women. Find but it's like just come up with a different story that was such a

week justification. But I guess she dies two seconds later. I don't. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's so it's like, so this movie is so like campy and fun and then but then plot wise it's so boring. I'm confusing. It doesn't make sense. Very yeah, bizarre movie. I did appreciate the Glenn closest character says that she created robot Mike because she says that she here's what

it is. She kills real life like her husband and like her husband's mistress or whatever, and then she turned she does create a robot because she was like an engineer and brain surgeon or something like that in the former world Higher and another another girl boss, I guess. But she another also like vilifying a woman in stem Um. But I was gonna say, yeah, um. But so she creates a robot version of her husband, So I think he's the only one who's like a real robot except

for the A T M Lady. I don't know if it's confused, we're boob inflation lady. Oh is it faith? Yeah? I think it's faith. Like she there's when they find her remote they like play around with the buttons and in the background they're not able to see this, but Faith's boobs are like inflating and deflating and like being controlled by it. I think my impression was that they were all robot, Like it's not all the men because they're like, oh, the men are next, but yeah, he's

like the one male robot. All the women are becoming robots and then she's gonna but to the men. I mean,

it doesn't make sense, and like it just this. I guess, like I kind of struggle to understand where the two thousands movie lands on women in position of powers in the end, like it is it just again a friend that's really inconsistent because it's like, well, everyone in the movie seems to agree that um neutralizing a powerful woman's brain is bad, but it's also implied that Joanna being really into her job was bad, and it's implied that or it's like, I mean, the Glenn closest character clearly

feels and there's no time to challenge it because then the movie is over that her being too invested in her career lead her to murder somebody, which is something that happens to Glenn close in movies all the time. I like, I feel for her so much. She's like just thrust into the fatal attraction ship all the time for sure. Yeah. I it is super confusing about like are these women just like humans who have been nano chipped?

Because when like Matthew Brodwick's character liberates them at the end, they seem to like go back to their human self. It's like the technology disengages all of a sudden, which is why you know it can't be both. So I don't know. So which what isn't movie robot? I don't know, But I did appreciate when Claire Wellington is like explaining her whole master plan. She's like, well, then I created my robot husband, Mike because I needed a man that

other men would listen to. And it's like fair. Yeah, that reminds me of um oh, that story with Penelope gaze in from like five or so years ago when she was starting her clothing or when she was starting when she was working on a project called which C, which is like a UM shopping site, like as an experiment, she and her business partner um and I might be butchering this anecdote, but she and her business partner, like didn't experiment where they answered some vendors as themselves and

others with this fake male CEO they made up. And the responsiveness that they got to the I think like they they would just sign their emails Ken and the way and the white people would talk to them was like different way, better results, and they're like, thank God for Ken, because I mean, as a CEO myself, I can't tell you how many emails I get that begin dear sir all the time, you know, and it will be like a mass email, but it's always dear sir,

you know, oh my gosh, yeah. Or people, you know, people make all kinds of assumptions about me as a CEO, Like you know, people think, oh, you know, I must have a money man, or oh, like, who's the guy who need this happen? You know, it's it's wild all the assumptions people make about you so frustrating. There was

that other story. There's this story that came out where like a man and a woman had the same job at the same company, but people were always getting frustrated with the woman because she didn't seem to be as efficient as her like male counterpart. And then they looked into why this was, and it was because her correspondence with people, because people like, we're like, oh, I'm dealing with a woman, so I have to like, I don't trust her that she's like saying the right thing or like.

So there was just so much more like back and forth, whereas when the man was corresponding with with people, people were just inclined to be like, all right, if that's what you say, then okay. Um, And so he was able to be more efficient in his job. That's not even yeah, that's not even God. I hate that. There are so many examples of this that it's approvable track record. Well that was so okay, good points for points for um, what's their name, Beef Wellington? Uh for that for that.

But but that's almost just like a throwaway line. Um. Anyway, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion. And we're back. I really want to talk about the inclusion of a gay couple in the two thousand and four one, which there is not in the seventies. It's Tina Louise in the seven Yeah. I again, while I have not read the book, I was researching the differences between the book and the movie, and the book actually has a plot point that was left out

of the seventies rendition. So in the book there is the first and only black residence of Stepford, Royal and Ruthan, and they are not included in the two thousand and four one either. That plot line has changed into Roger

and Jerry. And while I think it was likely chosen to change that because it was two thousand and four, like the cultural moment of talking about lgbt Q plus rights, etcetera, but that's also like, clearly we know that the issue of racism I personally have felt would I wanted, I mean, I didn't want to see that tackled certainly by either of these adaptations. But I did find it in interesting that there is a very clear point made about the whiteness of Stepford in the book that seems to be

completely left out of both film adaptations. That's why I wasn't aware of that. It's the in terms of the I think that the fact that there is a black family moving to Stepford is in one like it's mentioned in the seventies mention. But then that's okay, that makes more sense to me because it's like then you never

meet those characters. Uh, that's that sucks. I mean, it's not I mean, obviously, Hira Leven is probably not the most qualified person to be um leading that discussion, but the fact that there were black characters and obviously like the extreme whiteness of the Connecticut suburbs, it's like there is more than enough opportunity to have a productive discussion there if either of these movies were actually the hiring black creators that could speak to it. Um, which neither did. Um,

that's that's so frustrating. Yeah, I mean, and again it's like, yeah, they tried to change it into shining a light on homophobia instead of shining a light upon racism, but it really didn't even have that much to say about homophobia,

to be quite honest. It was just like, oh, let's randomly include a gay couple, okay, and in fact it just does a homophobic thing where the movie suggests that it's like kind of reinforces this problematic notion that in a gay couple there's still like one person's the man and the other person is the wife, because like Roger is kind of like foisted into this like Stepford wife role because he's he gets the treatment, he gets changed his his husband husband, Um, uh, what's I forget his name,

Jerry like wants him to like tone down his just like more conservative. Yeah, and like he wants him to kind of assimilate into this straight, heteronormative Stepford lifestyle. This made my head hurt because it was like the way that Roger was treated. First of all, he's played by Roger Bart, who is a street actor who has played

a number of iconic, very stereotypical gay roles. He also played, um, the I don't remember the name of the character, but the guy from the Producers, the gay character in the Producers, that's also Roger Bart. So I don't know, it's I'm sure that there's a wide variety of opinions, but it seems that Roger Bart is very commonly cast to play a stereotypical gay character. He is not a gay actor, So there's there's some ship going on there. Uh. And and the fact that there's just like Roger as he's

written in the movie is like a Vario stereotyped character. Um, definitely. And then it's sometimes the person making the point of like like when he's post stepforded and now he's a gay Republican. Uh. Then the person who makes the point of like, wow, this character was really stereotyped. Are the people you're supposed to be angry at. Like there's that moment where Walter is kind of gaslighting Joanna because Joanna is like Rogers different, like they got to Roger and

he's like, well, what do you mean. You know it's a don't stereotype him, blah blah blah, and it's like it was so weird, like the flaming hoops. Yeah, it was mind boggling. An interesting thing that I read reading about the differences between book and movie, and this is

from a blog called Beyond the Front Cover. It seems like one commentary that is made in the book, and again I haven't read it, so this is just this blog's take on it, is that ruth Anne, the black woman who has moved to Stepford, thinks that the wives are being cold to her, not because they have turned

into robots, but because she is black. So she believes that the reason they are so anti social is because she's black, not because they are robots, which I don't know how I would be very curious to see how that's written into the book. Again summary from a blog I literally just googled. But you know, that seems like it's more than just a cursory like, oh, let's just randomly include a non white couple, let's include a non straight couple, etcetera. It seems like maybe there was a

little bit of thought put into it. But again, I have to read the book to get to do my homework. It seems like, I mean, it's like, yeah, again, we were not a book reading podcast here, but it does. It does seem like Ira Levin has a good track record as a writer of including social issues thoughtfully, and it's it's so telling that, yeah, that that was just in both nineteen and two thousand four, like had included

we're not gonna we're just gonna skip that. I don't know, I I it's really hard to watch movies with and let's be real, so many like look at the Golden Globes or the Oscars, it's all white nominees. But it's like watching these films that you know, whiteness is such a large part of the oppressive suburb conformity, and that is just a whole chunk of it completely left out right, which is frustrating because the setup of this story is

uniquely suited to comment on like oppressive whiteness. You're in a Connecticut, a rich Connecticut suburbs, Like where is a better place to kind of make those points? Which is

where I feel like it. You know, even when both of these movies are making the occasional like feminist point, it's still very centered in upwardly mobile white women the way that you know, most movies UM tend to be when they get this far, Like it's just really it's I kept writing down, like this is the perfect setting to address like this so much, and they just don't

even try, Like yeah. Jordan's Peel said that he was largely inspired by this property by the like Stepford Wives kind of premise and get Out, And I feel like, you know, that's obviously a movie that like does yeah, because there are some pretty um interesting similarities between you know, Stepford Wives and get Out, um the creepiness of conformity.

And I love watching Stepford Wives as someone who like I definitely as someone who sells sex toys for a living m A. You know, I have an unusual career, but when I was a teenager, all I wanted to do was fit in and be normal. I just wanted to wear ugs and a north face and be normal, and you know, and then I became a little alternative later on. But uh, I think that's such the beauty

of it is. I think so many of us are either aware of or are trying to fit in, or we are aware of how painfully we don't fit in. And there's so much to explore with this concept. It's a wonderful premise. I would love to see you further adaptations. And I know that there were some like eighties and nineties spin off like The Stepford Children, the Stepford Husbands that were like TV series. I think, um so t B d on Like what is or is not explored there?

I'm not going to hold my hopes high, but it's I think it has stood the test of time or you know, at least forty fifty years, because there's so many universal themes of otherness, of perfection being something impossible to attain as a human yet we try to do that anyway. Um, and also just having that be something that's synonymous with a very narrow way of living your life and conformity even in the way you make your

home you know that's there's a lot there. Well, while the movie, these movies don't tackle well, the one thing that they do is very lightly mentioned how Bobby Markowitz is Jewish in a community that is largely probably like Protestant Christian um and the two four movie more than so. In the nineteen version, Bobby introduces herself to Joanna as Barbie Marco and then say something like it's like the upwardly mobile version of Marco Witz, so she's basically like

christianizing her name. I missed that, um. And then in with that Middler in the two thousand four version, there's that whole scene where they're like talking about like the Christmas Collectibles book at their book club, and she's making a bunch of jokes about how she's like unapologetically Jewish, and then all of the other women are like, well, you can make a minora out of pine cones, and like they're just like not getting it. Um. But that's really all the movies do as far as like commenting

on any kind of diversity or lack thereof. It's like one mentioned, one mentioned, one joke, and then it never kind of comes back. I al thought it was kind of I mean it was at least even if you know, we've talked a lot about like the level of effectiveness,

but I think that it's possible. One of the reasons that this story endures as well as it kind of like is I don't know, I feel like gender, like expectations of gender, even though they change over time, and they have become fortunately far less binary over time, and there's a larger discussion being had, but there is kind of like this I don't know, like historical tendency of like that you see like different versions of the same theme popping up in the seventies and the two thousands

of at least I mean in the US. And then I think, generally I'm not a historian. I don't know, I'm a comedian, So throw an egg in my head if I'm wrong, But like a tendency of when society is like kind of at quote unquote low, there's a recession, there's a war going on, women and marginalized people in general get more power because it's like, oh, we all

need to band together. And then when there's times of kind of excess and economic growth, um, the binary kind of creeps back in a in a pretty inside yes, way, and it's like you see that in like World War two years and then in the fifties when there's this big economic boom, all of a sudden, women are back in the house, and you see it again in the eighties, and then you know, in the nineties and two thousands, the economies in a slightly better place, and you see

these like stories about you know, just domesticity and like expectations for women kind of come back. And as much as like I think we've like moved certainly in the right direction over the years, it's like almost depressing to be like, oh, I understand why these two move, Like I understand why this movie would make a comeback. In the early to mid two thousand's, it seems like a time where those like pressures were kind of making a return.

I mean, even just like with Black History Month, where now in Women's History Month, and as like as long as you need a you know, history month for it's it's you know, as long as that is something, it means that yep, there's still a power and balance and

ship is still fucked up. If you know, we're gonna just emphasize this one marginalized group during a certain period of time, you know, yeah, there's and with the two thousands, it's like the movie does reflect that women have more power than they did in the mid seventies, but the the you know, reaction from the patriarchy is worse, and they're like, you know, taking going to even further extremes, and they're like, you know, threatened to a greater extent

than like my wife wants to take a picture on her nicon, should I kill her? Like, yeah, that makes it a lot more. Uh, it's a difficult pil to swallow that there was like really, I mean again, not that being a CEO means you deserve to be turned into a robot, but at least at least we're like, oh, he was feeling emasculated and had to set the record straight versus like my wife, who already was pretty much a housewife, I'm going to make into even more of

a housewife. Right. Well, I imagine that part of it was that Joanna in the seventy five version mentions that she was dabbling in women's lib when she was living in New York, And it seems like a lot of the women in the community were into women's lib before

they were murdered and turned into robots. Um, because there are mentions of different women either leading or participating in like a woman's group in Stepford, and their husbands were clearly threatened by that, hence turning them into robots because a lot of men do not like women having freedom and autonomy. Um. I made a list, classic me, I

made a little charge. Um. Some of these we've already touched on, but I wanted to just kind of go through the differences between the two thousand four in nineteen seventy five versions of the movies, just kind of reiterating that Joanna in the two thousand four one keeps trying to like assimilate and adopt the Stepford Wives lifestyle, even before there's any indication that oh, did she or didn't she gets like actually converted, but she keeps being like, no,

I am going to wear pink, and I am going to make a million cupcakes and I'm gonna do like She's like trying to assimilate power of positive thinking right for like four question mark reasons. We're never quite sure why. Part of this is also that she expresses no interest in trying to return to her career or do professional work of any kind. There's no like, well, maybe the TV thing wasn't actually for me, but I'd like to

pick up this other thing. There's just like absolutely no whereas in the nineteen seventy five version, which I feel like is more realistic or at least more consistent with the character that joe Anna has been established to be, that she does continue to pursue her like career ambitions and her passion for photography. She and Bobby try to start like a women's group to help liberate the women

of the community. And I really one of the scenes that stuck out to me about the one, I really do I love frank Oz, I love the production design on the tooth as of her one, but the seventies one is like, I don't know, I just like it so much better that this scene in. I also like the Joanna almost cheats on her husband in the in the first one too, even though it kind of goes nowhere and they make it seem like it's Raymond Chandler.

But that also it was confusing. But the scene in in the first one where she is talking with the gallery owner, she's trying to like she's really nervous, she's feeling really insecure about her work. He's kind of like, even though he's like, I like your work, he's kind of dismissing her as like being hysterical to an extent. But she like says really clearly this thing that it

was like, oh my god, Like it doesn't. She says like, I just don't want to be forgotten, like I I want my Like she just wants her life to have meant something beyond being someone's mom and someone's wife, which is like, you don't get that moment for like that updated moment for Nicole Kidman Joanna, and I feel like you could really use it and it could have made an interesting statement on the time period it was coming out, definitely, And then yeah, just like the large chunk of the

movie is Joanna and Bobby like going around to the different women in the community being like, hey, we're forming this women's liberation group basically like a place where we can bond with each other and speak freely about, you know, our issues and concerns. But it it ends up fizzling out because the women who join only want to talk about cleaning and baking um because is unbeknownst to them, these women are actually robots. But like they put so

much more effort. Basically, this whole list is like reasons why the nineteen version of this movie is better, but like they actually like put in effort, and like Joanna is a more consistent character throughout another than we touched on, but like Walter gets a redemption arc for no reason, and like is the one to like liberate the wives and save the day, Whereas in the nineteen one, like Walter becomes abusive and it's clear that he's bad, and he is, and in that way she gets a hit

him in the head with a fire poker and that's fun, yes, And then that kind of connects to like the main villain in the two thousand four one is this woman who wants to punish all women because her husband cheated on her with a younger woman, Whereas the main villain in the n is the Men's Association an a k a. The patriarchy, which makes more sense to me. Yeah, let's see, I think we've Yeah, we've gone over everything else pretty

in depth. I have some notes from the one that I'm looking at my notes on each movie, and the notes I took on the nineteen just like are just make more sense it feels like I'm like looking at like a more complete like piece of work here, because um, there was like more subtle imagery. The whole thing is a little bit more subtle. But like one thing that really stood out to me is right when they move into the new house, Walter in he is just like, oh what if we have have you ever had sex

in front of a fireplace? Oh? Like what if? Like let's christen every room in the house. And like there's this really big theme of like I view you as a sexual object, and that is in line with me basically wanting to turn you into a human sex all um that is living and breathing, and you know, again as a sex toy salesperson. I think the idea of sex dolls is definitely something that just kept popping up

in my brain. Um, how a Stepford wife is like the You know, I'm not saying that people who buy end use sex dolls are looking for anything remotely like a Stepford experience, but I think it raises questions in the average person that are much similar. It's like, oh, well, you know, why would you want a full size doll? Like what does it say about how you feel about women? If you want this, doll um. Another thing I noticed in the seventy one is that the things that qualify

as accidents seem very mundane. Like there's a scene where there's like that fender bender in the parking lot in the and they're like, oh, call the ambulance, and you just get the sense that like, nothing bad ever happens here, Like like the most delicate issue is a one call which I think, you know, boz us the suburbs. And then um, finally a line I wrote down from the see and I believe this is Joanna talking to Bobby earlier on when they're kind of like trying to figure

out what's going on. Joanna says, it's perfect. How could you not like it? But I don't like it? And I love that line because she's like not able to put her finger on what's creepy about it and recognizing like, yes, this is idyllic, and like, I know I'm supposed to want this, why don't I want this this? I just thought it was a very telling line that was really

well written. And I don't know if that was directly out of the book or whoever adapted the script wrote that, but I thought that was a beautiful line that is kind of the pinnacle of the creepiness of Suburbia. I totally agree. Yeah, there's just there, there's just so many elements in the in this in one that just felt more botful and like subtle in a different and it's like, well, you know, the Frank ozz movie is not trying to

be subtle. That's not its mission. But I just thought it worked well and I wish something that I think could have carried over into the two thousand for adaptation but didn't was the fact that, like Joanna and Bobby are like really good friends in the seventies when you like understand like you get to see them kind of form this bond. They're very much on the same page. They're very complimentary to each other, They're like rooting for each other. They're kind of each other's main source of

like you know, just feeling like reality. Yeah, and it's and so I feel like in the seventies version, when Bobby turns and she's Stepford, it you really feel it, and you're like like you can feel how devastating this would be for Joanna. But when it's funny, when that middler turns, but you just don't have that same level of relationships. They're kind of ever on the same page

because Nicole Kidman can't she's too inconsistent seconds. So they don't really get that bond because they're they're never really on the same page. Um yeah, I don't know. Was there any other stuff we want to Does it pass the back del test? And I think I think even with our with our new caveat of meaningful conversations that do not um mentioned men, I think it happens much more in the seventies one. But it does happen in both definite. I will say that. And I said this

earlier on when we're talking about it. It's like funny to put the back dealt test to a movie where there is like this, you know, even if you are talking to a robot about cooking and cleaning, it's like, well, the brain is their brain is being controlled by a man, so are you really talking to you know? So it's

like that's a fun little caveats to throw in there. Sure, Sure, And then there's I mean, there's plenty of conversations between two women who have not been yet turned into right robots about it's mostly about do you think we'll be robots soon. But in the in the seventies, when they talk about like Joanna's career ambitions, they talk about like, hey, I was a women's libert like there's like a lot of ship going on, like you get good. They talk about their kids, they talk about like talk about a

lot of good stuff. Oh, I guess that was my Like I guess the way that the kids are treated and that I think they just should have written the kids out of this. There shouldn't be I mean even in the seventies when the kids kind of also disappear a little bit, I feel like it was like kind of telling you. I think that there is this like

I can't describe it, like there is this impulse. I feel like maybe we've talked about this before where if you're like, if your female lead is a mother, she has to be like a really good mother and it has to be pointed out by the story. Like I think that that's something that kind of happens a lot. I don't know what it is. It's not necessarily bad, but it's just okay. Like yeah, if you're if you're listening to this and you're like that makes sense to me.

I feel like I've read about this somewhere before, where Yeah, it's like pointing out that, like, not only is she our hero, she's an amazing, flawless mother, like because that's how the patriarchy sees went in, Right, you're a mother, or you're a daughter, or you're a sister, or you're a lover, but never all at once. Madonna whore complex

for sure. Yeah. Yeah, and then I guess I guess it's cos without saying unfortunately that both of these movies were written and directed by then um, why is this? I honestly think this is a story that could be adapted well again, definitely by people who would have any insight into what this could feel like. Truly. Yeah, I guess that brings us to our nipple scale, which is our scale of zero to five nipples based on how

the movie fares. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, I I think I have to like give two different

scores for the two different movies here. While I appreciate that both movies attempt to comment on the kind of rigidity of women's expected roles in society under like what the patriarchy expects of women and how that's like a very interesting thing that is extremely ripe for discussion for our show, especially uh seventy version, while it's not perfect and there's some you know, things that it leaves out, and it is both movies are very much like these

white families, ignoring any kind of what a black family's family's experience would be, or any family of colors experience would be living in a predominantly white suburb. So yeah, there's there's there's things that it could have handled better. But for the seventy one, um, I want to give it like a maybe even like a free h Yeah, that's hard. I was trying to think what I'd give it.

I don't know. I think like a three or three and a half, especially for for like a movie like kind of adjusted for like time inflation, since it's like a nineteen movie. I think it has a lot of really interesting points to make and just it handles like the satire in the allegory, in the tone of it all way more effectively. Whereas the two thousand four version, I think I would only give like a one point

five or maybe a two. Like I think there are again the examination of like male fragility and like the fragile male egos of like all the husbands who couldn't live up to their wives and who felt threatened and emasculated by them. That's a real thing that happens, and that's worth you know, examining. But again the movie it's just like, well, but you know, the patriarchy isn't actually to blame. You know who's to blame, Glenn Close, Yeah, I did. I am never like a big fan of

that decision. It works for me in the two thousand four one because of like, well this, you know, all the other points failed, so I guess it's one ship should at least fail in a way that is funny to me. Um, yeah, I'm gonna go three and a have on the seventies one and one and a half on the two thousand and four one for for mainly the reasons described. I'm honestly, I'm like, maybe I'm just a big fan of the seventies one. I almost want

to read it a little higher. But I think for for its time especially, you know, it's kind of like that rare, rare one where it's like a movie written and directed by a man, adapted by a book written by a man about women that somehow didn't end up being deeply condescending and horrible to women. Our bar again

is such so low. I mean it's like I give I give the New one a half nipple, and I give the seventies one like one and a half nipples, because while it's addressing, like like the women's rights aspect, it's just like there's so many I think if I read about what was left out, that really just rocks my my judgment of that as well, um the fact that it was written into the book and then you know, seemingly intentionally left out or maybe edited out, who knows,

but uh, yeah, I'm I'm a generous reviewer, so I've been trying to like batten down the hatches and be

a tougher reviewer these days. I do. I think it's worth mentioning that on letterbox, which I am an avid user, of the seventies one has like an average rating of three and a half stars and the two thousand and four has an average rating of two and a half stars, so it's a full star less so average viewer would agree that the seventies one is overall uh the Rotten Tomatoes score for the two four movie the critics scores on Rotten Tomatoes so quite rotten that and only only

a thirty percent for the audience score. So audiences also don't like this movie. Yeah, I don't think people liked this. I think that like we we I think like Stalgia for us, maybe yeah, nostalgia nostalgia and like I like, yeah, I liked Sleepover, I liked driving movie theaters. The best thing about the frank Oswind for me is like the set design. It's so cool and so like gorgeous and like dated and kind of ways that are appealing tonight. Um, so I think, like, yeah, that that design is way

better in the new one. It's really expensive looking, and it had a ridiculous budget, had like a ninety million dollar buy and made only about that much at the box office, like it was a big profit turner. Turns out like generally, you know, it's uh, Women do like movies that are promised to be about them, to actually be about them and not this bizarro matth Matthew Broderick Redemption arc. How many times am I going to have

to watch a Matthew Broderick Redemption arc. I also read that, um, the set of the two thousand four movie was really tense and no one liked each other. Yeah, I read that too, Oh my god, juicy Frank Ozz was kind of throwing shade. He's like, well, I wish Bette Midler wasn't bringing her problems onto the session. Like okay, sir, okay, there's who knows, who knows, but it seems like no one liked each other. And Matthew Broderick has also bad mouth the movie. No one enjoyed it? Oh I did

not know that, I know, right. It kind of made me a little more attached to it. I'm like, oh, was so this was hell for you as well as uh me watching it now chaos on off screen? Yea, truly, Zoe, thank you so much for joining us to talk about

I genuinely thank you so much for having me. I loved getting to do this deep dive and really like think critically about the films I watched instead of just like god, I've been watching so many movies that taking notes intentionally on them was really a nice change of pace for me. Thank you. You're so Welcomeme. Yeah, thanks, thank you. This has been uh what what a what a wild journey this property has been through over the years. I feel like I've been turned into a robot and

then turned back. So we workn Where can people check out your stuff, follow you online? Et cetera? Great question. I am thong Gia on social media, so the word thong with r I A after it. Uh. My sex Way store is shop Spectrum boutique on Instagram. And a new thing that I a journey of an embarking upon lately, which may appeal to some of you listeners, is a Disturbing movie discord, which I've been calling the ft up movie heads thread. So if you want to join that discord,

please feel free. We'd love to have you talk about some weird movies that disturb us. Nice well, we'll link to it. You can follow us on social media Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, which is up to nearly eighty bonus episodes. Now it's out of control. It is

um and uh yeah, I would say um. Check out The Suffered Wives if you've never seen it on YouTube and and also get out another watch just for the hell of it. Skip Skip the Frank oz One. I had to pay three dollars to watch it, and I'm never gonna get over it. Sorry, ridiculous. Um. You can check out our march at t public dot com slash at the Epactel cost You can get masks, you can get stuff. You can live your life or not, we

won't know. Um. And on that note, I'm gonna go down to my basement and just pull my head off. Oh yeah, I'm gonna figure out how to get an eight GM and I want to get a cash system set up in my stomach. Just spit up. I'm I'm a feminist icon. So I'm gonna find a man robot and I'm gonna make him do all my bidding for me. Wow, I love it. I'm gonna go tell my boyfriend to pick up the groceries at Costco, just like the end of the actual two thousand and four movie. I'm gonna

go say, hey, go get all my groceries for me. You'round, man, and it's time for that tables to turn things. They are a little different these days, I know. I'm like, that's what a shitty punishment like the grocery store rocks. It's fun. Yeah, Colm, We all love anyway anyway, you know why? Fine, Bye bye