Starship Troopers with Jonathan Braylock

if only we had known. Welcome to the Bextel Cast. I'm Gammie Lad, I'm Caitlin Darante and this is our podcast where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Simply, Jamie, I would like to know more? What is the Actel test? The Bechtel test is a media metric invented by Weir cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. Would

you like to know more? I guess please? For our purposes, the Bechdel test requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than men I honestly, I am not sure if it happens in this movie or not. So confused was I by the movie? Would you like to know more? Uh? No, I'm good for now. Okay, well, Jamie, you're a natural at that. Yeah, I'm a I'm a natural propagandists. Good

to know? Which is good to know? I okay, wait, uh this is this is going to pass the Bechtel test. Did you notice that there's a golden girl in Starship Troopers? I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me by this video essay that send me the link to, which was I found very helpful. Thank you so much. But yeah, I didn't notice because, like, I think the makeup department makes her face looks somewhat disfigured or something, and then she's also wearing these like goggli I believe

this is Yeah. I I wasn't sure if we were supposed to think her character was blind. I wasn't totally sure. I think that that might have been the implication. But either way, Rue McClanahan is in the damn movie playing a mean science teacher who's like, dissect this bug, like I mean that in a good woman in Stem though a woman. There's okay, there's a lot of this. This episode is like the case against women in stem Uh

when it's used for fascism. So yeah, this is the Starship Troopers episode of the Bechtel Cast, and um, listen, bear with us because we were not expecting this movie. No, we weren't excited to discuss. So let's introduce our guest. He is an actor, a comedian. You know him from Astronomy Club on Netflix and as the co host of the podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood. It's Jonathan Braylock. Thank you so much for having me. It's exciting. Thanks

for being here. Thank you for bringing up this terrifying movie. It was on your list, so it seems like you guys it was. Yes, it feels kind of random, But we've gotten this request a bunch of times, and now I I now, having seen it, I understand why. Even less I was gonna say, why why have you gotten the requests? I wonder if I have a I guess, I guess I have a couple of theories. But I mean, literally every movie ever made, including dozens we've never heard of,

we've gotten requests for. But this one came up enough that we like, like we like added it to a list and everything. So I people who have requested this movie, I did demand an explanation. Jonathan, what's your history with

with this movie? Well? It's interesting because, like I've said this on my podcast, but like when I was growing up, I wasn't really allowed to watch rated our movies for a while, and so like any time I saw what it was either like a TV version of it, which is like edited down but still kind of pretty graphic, like verbal cop comes to mind and that kind of sense.

Same director, Yeah, exactly, like just hyper violent. But I was super into sci fi, so I always wanted to watch this movie, and I think I wasn't allowed to when it had come out, But then I'm like, I

don't know. At some point in high school I was able to like watch it, and I was kind of like, I was like, what is I was like just kind of confused because it was because I wanted to watch like a you know, just a regular sci fi like Star I thought like I was going to get into like some Star Wars kind of thing, and this is this movie is very much not that um but it I don't know, there's something there was something about it that always stuck with me about how like it felt

like the movie was kind of like making fun of what the movie itself was to a degree, but also but was still being that kind of movie. And so I don't know, I just it's I wanted to rewatch it because I was like, I wonder how that holds up, Like I wonder if it was saying more than I caught at the time, or you know, was it like being more subversive than you know, people gave it credit for.

I don't know. I don't know if it was, but but I wanted I wanted to examine it for me, still inconclusive of and like you brought up Star Wars, like this movie is like if Star Wars was told from the perspective of like the Empire. Yeah, just like a very uninquisitive Empire story. Trooper just being like, yes, seems like they have a great idea exactly, Um, Jamie,

what's your history with it? Truly nothing like I had seen other Paul Verhoeven movies like but by that I mean Basic Instinct and Show Girls, which were his two movies leading up to this. So I've never seen Robotop I guess I don't really know this side of Paul Verhoeven. Sure, And I didn't know it was a book until when I mentioned we were covering this. They're like, you have to read the book, which is the thing I hate

to hear the most. But I listened to the audio book and I watched the movie, and both of them are so fucking fascist and bizarre to me. Um, but that's my that's my entire history. It started on Monday, what about You, Kim Incredible? I had like volant. I was like, I'm going to reread the book because I had read the book in a class I took in like a SCIE, a sci fi literature class I took in college. It was like one of the required readings. But I was a really bad student in that class.

And while I did like sort of read the books, I also didn't entirely. I would like read the first fifty pages, because we had to read a book every week in that class, and I was like, I don't know who has at the time, so I would like read the first fifty pages and then usually like skim the rest. And I think that's what I must have done for this book, because I truly remembered nothing about it.

And then I also I thought I had seen this movie, but as I was watching it, nothing about it was familiar. So I think I just had one of those like false memories of having seen it. So I also have a very limited history with it. Um, I knew the part of the history behind it. Of like, when it

first came out, critics were like, this movie sucks. It's just a mess of like gratuitous graphic violence and uh, weird themes and da da da da, and then and then like kind of in retrospect, a bunch of critics were like, oh, wait a minute, actually, this movie is freaking a brilliant, awesome satire and if you don't notice that,

then your brain is bad there. And just like I like, I love that cycle of like people think it sucks, then they're like actually, and then they're like Galaxy brand, They're like it's genius, and then three years later they're like, no, wait, it does suck. It was We've come full circle, right, Um.

I think that like the way there's the framing, I like, okay, the beginning, the beginning, like the propaganda framing, Like I feel like that is as close to the like that satirical framework, like those are the parts of the movie that I like the best, but then all the plot that happens between those seem to just be very unquestioning. Yeah, it's very much just doing the story. Like when I when I was starting it again, I was like, I was like, yeah, it is wow, look at this, like

this is really fun. Like the scenes where like the guys like giving his gun to like children, and the children like and like fighting over the gun, and you're like,

it's like pushing it to the edge. But then when we actually like get into I mean, there are small things dropped here and there, but for the most part, the movie is just doing the thing that the movie is always do, And it was made in an error where people were literally making and consuming these movies at such a high degree that it's like, how would anyone know that you were even if you said it, which I think he he explicitly said it, like in interviews

and stuff, but it was like nobody knows. Nobody, Like the the general audience doesn't know or care. They're like they've been watching movies like this all the time, and Robot I don't. It's funny because like I I don't know if he feels the same way about RoboCop, but like RoboCop is also like extreme, extremely like pro police, pro like very racist, like very like. I don't know, it's it's it's what it like says. What it says is terrible and if and if you're trying to say,

like no, well this is a commentary, it's tough. Yeah, I find those arguments always a little tough. Paul Verhoven is his quotes are like weird to the context for this movie being made. Is like he the screenwriter. He's working with the same screenwriter that he did RoboCop with Ed new Meyer. Ed new Meyer loves the book Starship Troopers. Paul Verhoeven hates the books Starship Troopers. This makes so much sense. He literally says, I stopped after two chapters

because it was so boring. It is really a bad book. I asked ed new Meyer to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right wing book. And he's right, But then, like, why would he make this movie? It's so so strange. Um, oh gosh, well should we Let's get into the recap and then we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it, Hi, listeners, Just a quick note about the recap. The way our recording schedules worked out, we had to record the recap

separately without our guest Jonathan. So if you're wondering, hey, why isn't Jonathan saying anything during the recap, that's why. Okay, enjoy Okay. So, Um, this movie is set in a distant future where the people of Earth are at war with an alien species known as bugs or arachnik a.

Definitely not communists, definitely not. Uh and okay, So in this world, the only way to be um, a citizen of the Federation, the Federation being this government that rules it's Earth, and yeah, it's little like the military state, right, Um. And the only way to become a citizen with voting rights and all that kind of stuff is to serve

in the military a k a. The Federal Service. So the movie opens on a military propaganda commercial which we've already perfectly demonstrated you amazingly replicated, um, And this commercial is about how it's awesome to join the Federal Service.

Then we cut to a battle scene where we see the reality of kind of the situation and this war, which is soldiers getting brutally killed by these aliens, which, again, like those first few minutes of the movie, with this like military propaganda commercial which glorifies war, Jack stupposed against these scenes of graphic violence that show the reality and the horror of war, makes it seem like, yeah, it looks like some interesting satire is emerging here, but then

it just kind of stops and doesn't really go anywhere, right. Um. Then we cut to one year earlier where we meet some high school students. Johnny Rico is our hero. He's played by Casper Van Dying. I'm not really sure to what his name is. Fun fact, he was married to an actress who was in the vow because she joined that terrifying cult. Oh whoa, he's one degree removed from a terrifying cult. Wow, Casper, that's and that's all I have for context corner Um. His girlfriend is Carmen Ibanez.

That is Denise Richards. We also meet their classmate, Dizzy Flores. She's played by Dina meyer Um, who is obviously interested in Johnny romantically. Then we also meet carl A Neil Patrick Harris in like full doogie mode in this movie, Like he's like what if Doogie was a fascist and this this is a question no one asked, but this movie answers yes indeed, um. And they are all about to graduate and they're all considering joining the federal Service.

They have a teacher, Mr. Ross Check I also don't know how to say his name. He is teaching them about how military violence is actually really good and cool and necessary. Hell yeah. Then we see a football game where Johnny and Dizzy are playing football and then also sometimes doing gymnastics. I was like, what is that was one of the Paul Verhoven little touches that I was like, yeah, sure, why not? Yeah? Um. The reason I bring the football game up is that this is where we meet a

guy from the opposing football team, Xander. He becomes important later and he's trying to flirt with Carmen and it's a whole thing. He's exhausting. I mean, everyone in this movie is exhausting, but him especially Right then, the next day, Johnny, Carmen, and Carl all join the Federal Service. Carmen will train to be a pilot. Carl will be military intelligence because by the way, he has psychic abilities, he can talk, which he shows us by being like I know what

every card in the deck is. Also, I can talk to my ferret. You're like, huh, okay, I guess that's technically showing, not telling, is sure, Yeah, I guess that's planting. That's a Checkov's ferret um or something perfect. And then Johnny will be infantry. Johnny begins bootcamp with Sergeant Zim, who, of course, is best known as being one of the villains from Flubber. Yes, okay, I was. I was like,

I wonder who's going to bring up her first? Um, yeah, I mean the parallels between Um, what is the name of this movie Stormship Troopers not storm troop Troopers. I'm gonna, yeah, I need to do a disclaimer where I'm gonna accidentally call this movie stormship Troopers because of Stormtroopers, even though

it's called Starship Troopers. I mean, this movie. My first note for this is literally like Starship Troopers is if there was a biopic made of a stormtrooper who never questioned the military and viewed the rebellion as literal cockroaches Like there, yeah, fascism. Okay. Anyway, so Sergeant Zim, um Dizzy shows up to boot camp. She had requested to be transferred to this particular unit, probably because of how

in love she is with Johnny Rico. Gary A. Bussey's son is also there, which is once you know it's Gary A. Bussey's son, You're like, WHOA, that's really Gary Son, I know h. And he's playing he's playing the violin. He's That was another thing where just so much of this movie is so ridiculous as it watches over you that you're like, yeah, Gary Abussey's son is here. There was already a golden girl. I guess we just like

jumped the shark immediately right. His name is Ace. Boot Camp is tough, but Johnny shows promise and eventually he has made squad leader. Meanwhile, we see Carmen learning to be a pilot. She crosses paths with Stander again. Then Carmen sends a message, a video message, breaking up with Johnny, and shortly after that, Johnny is relieved of squad leader duty after the of a teammate, which was his fault. So he quits the military and he's about to go

back home, but just then war breaks out. When bugs attack, they like throw a meteor at earth. I don't know if it was supposed to be funny when he's skyping his parents and they're like, come home, we love you. Oh no, what's going on? And then it goes boop boop. I was like, okay, like there's so much of this movie. They're like, was that supposed to be campy or is that just Paul Verhoeven trying to be serious? Well that's

the thing. Like a lot of people will be like, this movie is brilliant satire and it's so hilarious, and then I'm over here being like shrug. I'm like, I think that that it definitely wants to be a brilliant satire, but you know, kind of like I'm not totally sure. I'm not convinced. Um So, because of the war that has just broken up, Johnny Rico's like, I'm going to join back up, So he and other troops are are deployed, but the battle goes horribly wrong. They underestimate the bugs.

Hundreds of thousands of troopers are killed in action, Johnny is badly wounded, uh and Carmen thinks that he's dead and she's all sad about it. So then the military has to reevaluate their battle plan and the teacher Mr. Razcheck shows up and he's like, by the way, I'm a lieutenant. Were like okay, um, and then let's see Johnny's injury gets fixed via sci fi science. That was kind of fun. He's in like a goop a goop

tank and then they're like, okay, you're good to go. Uh. Then they go back into battle and have a few successful missions where they kill a lot of bugs. Raz Check promotes Johnny. Johnny and Dizzy kiss and have sex and things really seem to be looking up. And guess who loves that they're having sex? Mr raz Check for some reason, He's take an extra ten minutes to have sex with each other. I'm like, um, you were my

history teacher at Growth, right. Um. So then they go out on another mission to Planet P and things go horribly wrong and they start to figure out that there must be like a brain bug that is controlling the other bugs and making intelligent choices and setting traps and things like that. Oh also, we should say, I mean it goes without saying that because this is a sci fi movie made by a man, that the and the monsters are vaginal, especially this brain bug which we are

about to see. I kind of was like back I'm like, you know what evil brain pussy? Sure, you know iconic. Yeah, So they learned about the brain Bug and a bunch of soldiers are killed, including roz Check and Dizzy. So then Carmen and Xander fly into rescue them, and Carmen is like, oh my god, Johnny, I thought you were dead, and he's like, uh no, surprised, surprise, And then Neil

Patrick Harris comes back dressed as a full Nazi. Was not prepared, Neil Patrick Harris to become a full Nazi, nor was I. And he's like, by the way, you have to go back to Planet P and kill the brain Bug Johnny Rico, who is now a lieutenant I think because he had to kill his his his teacher um. And Johnny's like cool, sounds good to me. So then

they go back in for one last battle. Meanwhile, Carmen and Xander's starship has been like shot out of space and then they crash land onto Planet P right into

the nest of the brain bug convenience. And the brain Bug definitely is the most vagina ish vagina monster if any movie I've ever seen that Yeah, yeah, and it sucks out Xander's brain as vaginas do as vaginas do, and it's about to do the same for Carmen, but then Johnny and a couple other troopers show up and save her, and then they capture the brain bug, and then Neil Patrick Harris uses his psychic abilities to learn that the bug is afraid, and then everyone cheers because

the bug is afraid. They're like, oh wow, we are really gonna commit a lot of atrocities soon, like, and that's basically the end of the movie, so shockingly, Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we will come right back and we're back. Can I give a quick book recap, please, because I just need to justify the time spent listening to the audiobook on one point five Okay, so the book, the book, and the movie are both fashy, but in kind of different ways. So I guess make

of that what you will. In the book, Um, there's a whole like whitewashing discussion to be had about this movie because in the book most of the main characters are Filipino. Um, and I believe they live in Canada, not Buenos Aires, even though Buenos Aires still does get bugged in the book. I don't know but the but yeah, it's Um, it's Juan Rico and his father Emilio Rico.

And so that's the first huge difference. UM and as well as like Carmen and Carl, they're all in point to be Filipino characters that live in the same community in Canada. There are class differences in the book, unlike in the movie where Um they still call him. They like americanized his name to Johnny midway through the book. Once he's in the military, he's called Johnny. At home he was called one UM. But once he gets to boot camp, like he he grew up in a really

rich family. Uh, and Carl and Carmen grew up in a lower class family, which which is implied why that's why they're joining the military. So there's like more push and pull there. There's like actual class stuff going on. Uh. They did that a little bit, like you knew that

he was rich. And there was that scene in the bat like the shower where they're all taking a shower together U where they're like talking about why they why they joined, and there is like a lot of people are like joined because they didn't have money or they like were farmers or whatever. So like it was there a little bit with him, but definitely not Carmen. They didn't they didn't make it seem like Carmen didn't have

money in the movie. Yeah, and it seems like carl was doing just fine because he's like in his like science deck ster's lab basement or whatever. He's got a pet ferret, you know, he's got like all the rich people do. I'm sure, but yes, so there's that. But then, I mean, the book does in the middle, uh take a pretty hard right turn where it just sort of starts through the teacher character just starts kind of spouting

right wing philosophy. Like there's just whole chapters that are about how the like there's no such thing as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There is only loyalty to the state. The most freedom you can get is a willingness to die for the state. And it just gets really hardcore. What what I The only thing I think it really does better is the class stuff, and

like it's more of a coming of age story. Even though it's like Juan Rico is coming of age into a fascist super soldier, he at least undergoes some sort of like change where I feel like in the movie he's kind of just like there, he's like hot and he's there, he likes he likes Carmen, he likes car and oh yeah, Krmen is barely in in the book. There's no love story in the book or anything like that.

That was like the whole thing for this movie. Yeah, I guess that that's we're saying, is there's all of all of the sexes of that appears in the movie is very of the movie. It's that in the book at all. I would say that that's one of the issues that the book actually like doesn't really super fumble, but it's it's implying that it's this fashion that it's this like militaristic utopia. That's why I think what the author wants you to think, like because he was in

the military himself. He is actively pushing children reading this book to go into the military, so he's like, the military isn't sexist, the military isn't racist. We're all fighting against the bugs, which is just communism. So it's very nineteen fifties like it was. It is it written as like a dystopian world? Like is it written like a nine four where it's like warning against this type of thing,

or do you does it? It feels like it's very pro this it's full, it's it's full utopia to the point where I was like reading of like it's so fucking weird because you think that I just didn't see that coming. Where like the more into fascism he gets, the happier he becomes, and he becomes fully self actualized. By the end in the book, his dad doesn't die. His dad gives up his richie rich business and joins the military with his son. And at the end they're like,

we're so happy, Like who wrote this book this? He's like, I never like literally he's a former Nazi wrote this book. Unfortunately, a US veteran who really got into it. It's really fucking weird, Like I it's and and I guess even in its time, people like this is right wing like man of Propaganda. Yeah, because it it is. But it was also one of the most like successful, influential like

sci fi books of its time. There were a lot of like posts and stuff I found about like, oh, when I first read this, it maybe want to join the military because that's literally like what it is supposed to You're it's supposed to make you want to just die for the state and view your enemy as just a lifeless evil husk Uh. So it's a fucked up book. Uh. And Carmen and and Dizzy. The name Dizzy has brought up literally once in the first chapter. She doesn't go

to school with them. She's not a character that exists in this world. She's just one of his like squad friends who's killed at the beginning. And so there's no love triangle, none of that ship. It's just truly all right wing ideology, um and a child being radicalized. So that's the book I read. The author, Robert A. Hind Line, wrote this book in response to right Um wrote this book in response to him being mad that the US

was suspending nuclear testing. He's like, no, we should be blowing and shut up and you know, having nuclear bombs dropping all over the place all the time. He loves war, the more casualties better. Looking him up on Wikipedia, he's six generation German American. Look, I'm not saying that all Germans are Nazis, but this guy wrote a fascism. He wrote a famous fashio. I don't know, I don't know.

It's so yeah, it's it's fun. Like the book is fucking scary because it's like it does start to pull you in of like, well, it's a coming of age story, and then in like a third of the way through, it's like, fuck you is scarier sh it you'll ever read. There is something interesting about because he's I think this

guy's like this is very anti communist. But there's a similar way in the movie does this, and I'm guessing the book does something similar where they at some point where they're talking about the bugs, they're like kind of I don't like idealizing them. They're like, oh, there's like

they're actually I don't know. They they don't have fear, they follow orders, they do this, they do that, and like there is this way in which like fascist, very right wing even though they're like against left wing, they like, you know, they they actually like dream about like wow, could you imagine having that much power where you know, people would just conform to the state and do this and do that, like for the good And you're just like,

so you're the same thing. You're the thing that you think that you think you're fighting against, Like that's what you want to be, Like what it's it's such a mindful It's like that does up and in the book as well, and it's like it's such a mind funk because when you're listening to it, you're like, this sounds like brainwashing. This sounds really bad. But the book is like, and isn't this amazing that we've shaped this young man

to think this way? But it is. Yeah, it's like, uh, as he spends more time in boot camp, and the boot camp thing is very different in the book. I won't even get into it because it's like more fucked up and worse. But uh, they're just like slowly it's worse there. It's yeah, I don't don't read the book, but the they they're just slowly sort of like encouraging him too and everyone to you know, not view the bugs.

Individuals view them as this mass organized and it just encouraged to like the soldiers, to view them as beings that do not have emotions, and so you will feel less bad about murdering them, like and in the I feel like the movie and the book you find out really nothing about like the bugs, what their goal is, like, what they're defending against, just so you don't feel bad about watching Johnny Rico kill them even the like even though they have all this intelligence and like you know,

weapons and this kind of things like that, like whenever, like every planet that they're on looks like completely lifeless. They're like even though even when they go underground, it's like they're just like living in tunnels, like they're just kind of doing this thing of like yeah, they just all they do is reproduce and spread and they and they're trying to kill us and that's it, Like that's all they are, just like this living organism. That's all

it's trying to do is like spread and destroy. But again, there's a reflection to us that could happen here, you know, in that. But the movie as subversive as people want this movie to be, and like, yes, there there are certain things where they're clearly like poking fun. The movie never actually goes there, Like it never actually goes there because you could do that, but nobody had no None

of these characters have any real realization that's happening. At the end, they're all you victorious, just cheering literally look at how much of a hero we all are, And it's encouraging the audience to fascist Doogie is so scary. Um. Oh, also that is a that's a that's a big change from the book. Carl is uh not psychic and is not uh not, No, there's no there's no psychic through line. Unfortunately, Carl dies about two seconds into the book, like they

all enlist at the same time. Johnny Johnny enlist because he wants to prove that he's more than just a rich kid, which is like exhausting, but he doesn't enlist because of Carmen, and then uh, Carl dies almost right away and Carmen disappears until the very end of the book. Wow.

Going back to the bug thing really quick, there's like a very brief suggestion in the movie that humans have been basically just call alonizing all of the like outer reaches of this entire galaxy, and then they came upon this like species of aliens and they didn't like to

be colonized, and then they fought back. And now that that's sort of like what instigated this entire war where the humans are like genociding these aliens, but it's just because of the humans being colonizers, and like there's just like a sliver of that in the movie. It's like you could do something with that, but then they're like, no,

they're not gonna do anything. It's truly a sliver. There's one person who there's like a report, like a nameless reporter who's like some would say that the humans are actually the ones that provoke the attack, and they're like

shut up. And then and then you're like you're like like that's funny, but when you don't actually do any of that, it's like, um, I don't know if you've guys noticed this, but like there are times where, like especially now, where like shows like pretend to be woke by like adding a line in Like I remember reading this pilot where it was like it was a space

kind of start, not Star Trek, but like something like that. Um, and the captain of the of the ship becomes like this dude who's like not as smart and like they're they're like jokes made about how he's not as smart as like the woman he passes up or like the other people, but it's like he still becomes the captain And I was like, Okay, so you guys pretend you're being woke by by like being like yeah with like man the like how did you become captain usually women

are captains, and I'm like, okay, but this show is going to be in our universe with a male, white male lead, So what do we So you're not actually doing the thing that you're you're commenting on, like you just assuming that by stating that, it's like we know we're doing it again and do it anyway. It reminds me of the Last Avengers movie when there's that moment where like all the women superheroes that they've only just introduced him to the universe within the past like two years.

We're like, wow, look at them, they're all walking together and just like feminism, right, women's like danting next to

each other. Yeah, right, yeah, this this movie does because it's like I feel like, at the end of the day, if if the movie is at no point that I feel like the movie was having you question Johnny ricas like motivations, question his journey or like root against him in any way, So it's like, well, then is it really saying anything if the whole journey is Johnny getting like really lost in the fascism sauce, and we're just supposed to be like really rooting for him the whole time,

Like you're never supposed to be rooting against him or the Earthlings. So if you had died, right, I can't. I wish he had died. I wish he had died, or there was like just some sort of like yeah, the movie to me feels completely void of like commentary and like, yes, there are these ends of satire with like the propaganda commercials that are being sprinkled throughout, but it feels like what you're saying, Jonathan, it feels like like the closest they get to be like, isn't this

fucked up? But then just doing the fucked up thing. Yeah, I read the director Paul Verhoeven said that his intent with this movie because again everyone wants to you know, lots of people are like, but it's brilliant satire. So Paul ever Hooven was like, well, my intent here was to seduce the audience into rooting for these fascist characters using the same military propaganda that like the Third Reich

was using for propaganda. And then also his intent was to chaw lenge the audience too, kind of consider, Okay, why are we rooting for fascism? That's an interesting idea. I just don't think he pulls it off, it's not executed well. And I didn't see that intent until he explained it to me personally. So it's like, then you're not if you're that's not effective satire. Think, Yeah, the reason that it's not affective to me in the slightest

is that one we don't. First of all, the reason that the book uses bugs as the enemy is because as human beings, we do have like in an a kind of we're like we look at insects as like they're gross, and we don't feel like people, even people who love animals, you know, will be quicker to kill a roach or an aunt, you know, or be than they would and maybe not bees anymore, just because now

we know their environmental impact. But but like, but you know what I mean, Like we're quicker to kill insects than we are any other really any other kind of

animal species. So so we're watching this movie and we don't feel anything for the bugs, Like nobody, you're you're not you're not thinking at all, like, oh, that bug had a family, or what if that bug was just like what if that bug is a civilian that's just like trying to live its life, Like it's it's so hard to like get there, and there are sci fi books that actually kind of make you think that. I mean, Enders Game is supposed to be that kind of book too.

I don't know if you guys have ever read Enders Game. Not from high school. I saw the movie though, but that was a similar thing where they're like training these like child soldiers to like kill things and like the bugs are the enemy, and then like at the end, he realizes, like he that this wasn't a trading mission, that it was the actual thing, and he's like wiped out in the whole planet of of bugs and he's like and the kid kind of feels like, wait a minute,

what did I just do? But it's also one of those things where it's even that like it's it doesn't go far enough, because people who look at the Nazis who are bad, like as bad guys, like people who sympathize with like fascism will also you know, use the Nazis as like some symbol of like, yeah, those guys like the Nazis are bad, you know, but our brand of fascism is good, you know, which is what this

movie is. You know. It's like, yeah, I don't know, I guess I don't know how anyone who wasn't who didn't already know the things that he's like trying to point out, is going to come to that realization themselves. Yeah, it's like Paul Verhoeven, it just seems ill equipped to

do what he says he's trying to do. And he's also just chosen like if he wants to make an anti fascist statement like this is not the book to adapt into a really expensive movie, like it's a fascist book, so using a using a screenwriter who likes the fascist book,

right if you yeah, it's it's it's pretty wild. The other thing that's like, Yeah, the other thing that's annoying is that I actually do think there was a chance in here to do something like like if you do have like these characters just like be like smiling over just like the most horrendous stuff. But like at the end of the day, Rico gets to stay alive, he gets the save the girl. Like he's failed upwards so many times that he's now a lieutenant just through his

history teacher. He's like experiencing a history teacher nepotism. Yeah, his his history teacher who told him to come in is like is the other hero, all the things that like the all the people who are against him, like his parents who are against them joining the military. They they get wiped out. And then motivation for him to stay there. You know, the girl that he is friends with but he doesn't really like. She winds up dying for her only purpose was for her to be with him.

Dying words are at least I got to be with you. And then and then he gets and then the and then the guy who stole his girl he dies too, So like everything's a okay for this dude. This dude is living the life. So how are we supposed to ever think that this movie is saying anything bad about this? It's I feel like it's especially like the Johnny Rico,

Like he's just his last name is Rico. It's ridiculous, Like and then and then but like in the movie that I found like Carl to be more frustrating than anyone else. He literally becomes like a Nazi psychic doctor and at the end he gets like that. I was like, how did Carl not die or experience any sort of like like you just see like these high school kids getting radicalized. And then the movie ends like and so like there's You're never supposed to be like was that good?

Like were we supposed to feel good about that? As it's just assumed that you want, like you hate the bugs. We know nothing about them. They all look like vagina monsters like every sci fi movie from this era, like and that's and that's it. I don't know. Yeah, I as much as I appreciate the in between segments of like would you like to know more? But it's like,

literally I would Paul Verhoeven I put that in the story. Um. Yeah, there's one point that I kind of the one Paul Verhoeven quote that I was like, that's kind of interesting because I don't know, he's like he is a guy who just loves when anyone is naked right like, and doesn't know how to have sex. I mean that's just basic ast thing that off the basic inst thing. I'm like, what do you think sex is? Like? What is such

a weird man? The one quote that because there is like that cod shower scene that is pretty important to like understanding the world, and I feel like it's like one of the only scenes that I felt like got close to saying something and then ultimately didn't because it was just basically explaining, like like what a barrier not serving in the military would be to like achieving any dream you'd have, whether you want to be a parent or a politician or a writer, or like, you have

to serve in order to just like live somewhat autonomously. So it's a helpful scene to include they're all naked,

which is very Paul Verhoven Like, I don't know. I guess I wasn't like particularly bothered because everyone was more or less framed in a similar way, But I liked so Pulver I guess that that was the scene that he had the most difficulty getting through, not the five trillion gory brutal deaths um not people being ripped limb from limb, not someone's brain getting literally sucked out of their head. He's like, so this is okay. I'll give you the quote, and then I'll give you the context

because it's a fun twist. So he says this quote about that kind of editing struggle. He said, uh, because he's Dutch. He says, Americans get more upset about nudity than ultra violence. I am constantly amazed about that. I mean, I haven't seen any sex scenes in American film that are anything other than completely boring. A bare breast is more difficult to get through the sensors than a body

riddled with bullets. I think that's a very valid point, right, Like that's and and and I feel like the nudity of this movie, at least compared to other movies of its time, I didn't think it was like particularly, I mean, it didn't need to be there, but it felt like gender was. It was just like, I guess we're all naked in this scene. I wasn't super bothered by it, but okay, but the twist in this scene, um is that So apparently they he was having trouble even getting

permission to shoot the scene, and then the cast. It says on scholarly journal Wikipedia, the cast agreed to do the co ed shower scene only if Verhoeven agreed to direct the scene naked, which he did so respect which which is like, I can't imagine a world in which having Paul Verhoeven naked would make me more comfortable. But that was that was what the cast said. And so that was how he got the topless scene through was

by being also topless. I mean, there is something about that like you you're in this with us, you know, kind of thing, like we're all going to share in this like experience that could feel embarrassing. Yeah, so you know, Paul, he was, he was, you know, at least willing to participate. It's like the more sexual version of when Greta Growing wore the prom dress during the Ladybird Prom scene. Right.

I don't know, this scene felt to me like gratuitous nudity, especially because most of the new ditty you see is women's breasts, and it just felt to me like an excuse to show some titties. And I just wasn't sure why it was happening. But I don't know, maybe that's just me being a puritan. I disagree on this specific scene. I don't know. I feel like that all the bodies in this scene, especially when you compare it to other like I always think of like the shower scene that

opens carry exactly. I was thinking the same thing like that is that's so it's so predatory too, because it's like these are high school girls and there's no reason for us to see this, like it doesn't add anything to the movie, whereas this and it's like it's like it's voyeuristic, right, Whereas this this, it's like they're all taking a shower together and none of them are sexualizing it.

Like there's a way in which I can see I can see or Hoban's like kind of thinking of like we gotta just you guys, gotta calm down with like how like both repressed and over sexualized you are in your society and one of the wait one of the ways to do that instead of like seeing nudity in like some sexual context, it's like we're all just like

everyone's showers. They're all showering together, no one's making comments on other people's body parts, and they're having actually like a real conversation right there, talking about their hopes and dreams topless. And I'm like, well, I guess that's as close to enjoying this group of people as I'm going

to get. I mean, yeah, it's like I think that it's a little bit different when it comes to that like weird sex scene with uh with Johnny and Dizzy, Like I think that I would argue as a little more or do it is, But the shower scene I was pretty unbothered by, I don't know, but also I was reading that test the way that like, I don't know, just I'm just like, wow, America is so fucking broken, right, But like test audiences for this movie um did not

comments on the brutal violence at all. They were just like I can't believe that people were topless. And then they also felt like the original notes were that they felt it was immoral for Carmen to choose a career ahead of being loyal to Rika, and they wanted like audiences wanted that change, not even Paul Verhoeven, and that Carmen shouldn't immoral, and that Carmen should have died instead of Dizzy because she made the sin of choosing a

career over some fucking guy. Uh And and I guess that was like overwhelmingly they're like I hated that I saw nudity, and you should have killed Denise Richards for wanting a job. And you're like, oh my god, no, you should have killed everyone for being a fascist. Like we're missing the thing here. So I don't know. Yeah, all all the sexism in this movie has been added, but it seems like audiences wanted more. There was a high demand for the female characters to be treated. Uh, worse.

That is absolutely wild. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion, and we're back. Should we talk about these gals. Let's talk about the gals. Should we start with Carmen? Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay. Everyone in this movie is a bad actor, right, like pretty much or like all the not Neil Patrick Harr. I mean I feel like, didn't okay, Denise Richards and

Casper Van question Mark are bad actors. But watching Denise Richards pretend to steer a spaceship was like I was losing it. It's so funny she's because she her eyes are just kind of glazed and the eyeline doesn't quite make sense, and then she just like pulls, like gently pulls a little. I was like, I've seen Star Wars. I think it's harder to drive this thing that you're making it look I attend to. I think she was

maybe miscast for this role. But at the same time, every time I love Denise Richards, but this movie gets brought up, Everyone's like, oh, yeah, that's that movie that like Denise Richards is in for some reason, and then like people are like, I feel like unnecessarily cruel to her. So then so then I'm like, I guess I kind of feel bad for like dumping on her her performance in this I'm just as happy to dump on almost

anyone in this movie. Gary Busey's sons, the lead of this movie is like, I'm not getting anything from him. He's just a blank slate. But but it is this weird thing where it felt intentional for them to be like these like very young, conventionally attractive, very very wide, very arian, like like, oh you know here, these are these are the the men and woman we put on our our poster board, you know, for for Nazi Germany. UM. And I was like, I was kind of like, I

kind of like, didn't I don't know the acting. I didn't like it didn't necessarily pull me out because of what I was watching, you know what I mean. Like they're like, it wasn't like there was something. I guess that's two fold that I didn't feel like the script

was giving anything deeper. But I also realized that better actors probably could have done something that the script wasn't doing, and that even the director maybe didn't wasn't even trying to do um and make these characters feel more you know,

three dimensional, but they were. It was very two men and most of these, I mean most of the main quote unquote teen actually thirty year old cast, Like most of them are nineties TV stars, So they were just like people who were on TV at the time, because like Neil Patrick Harris was Doogie Houser, Dina Meyer was on like Beverly Hills nine O two one, Oh Didn't Richards was one. Like these were all just kind of like teen soap stars that were put in this movie

about militaristic fascism. So I don't really understand the expectation for any of them to thrive in this environment. That said,

Deniece Richard driving a spaceship. As far as her character goes in general, I was not impressed with the way that she was written, believe it or not, um because basically, like so, it's the type of character who's like, Okay, she's really smart, she's really good at what she does, she's able to work her way up through the ranks, but she like just has absolutely no dimension or like nu once to her character, like she has no flaws, she never makes any mistake. Her main journey is like

picking between two assholes. Like that's her journey. Well, I guess our journey was to become a pilot, like and then like by the end is a captain right like her her her journey is is the career path and then like this romance thing. It is funny. I will say, uh, none of the female characters are written very well at all.

But I also don't think any of the male characters are written well in this movie out, so there's like a there's at least a parody in the in the sense in the sense that they're all two dimensional characters

that said, like, it's still Rico, still the lead. Yeah, I I think this is I don't know, like I like that she's it feels like kind of like an empty gesture of like she's an amazing pilot, which is like, okay, that's great, but she kind of achieves her goal immediately, like the first time she gets in the pilot seat there like you're amazing at this, and that she just continues to succeed at it um and her main thing is like Zander versus Johnny, And it seems like I

like that she's the one to break up with Johnny, Like it seems like she's being pretty realistic about everything. She's like because she's bare into him at the beginning, Like he has to keep reminding her that I love you, do you love me at all? And she's like, I guess, she's like, we're in high we're in high school, man, Like yeah, like chill, like we're high school boyfriend girfriend. We're literally not going to know each other when we graduate.

She's just kind of being I appreciate that she's being a realist about her high school relationship. And I was, and I don't know, I don't like dislike harmen. I just like we know nothing about any of these kids, right, And also it is very jarring when all of their families die and they don't really react. I got react barely. I mean there's yeah where she's like, you know, every time I think about it, I'm crying, but like she's not crying in that moment, and it doesn't seem like

she's actually that sad. Uh Anyways, like oh my god, Yeah, their entire families die, which I feel like really gets glazed over, which it's again it's just like, well, then don't have them live there if you're not going to have them react to their entire families dying. I don't know, it's very straight, but yeah, it's like Kerman the most,

like we don't really know. She kind of achieves her goal right away, and then it's just kind of like she's I like that she's like present and there's definitely she has her own storyline, but I don't know. It was not very moved by the Zander versus Johnny Rico

uh decision. And she also didn't seem she seemed pretty set on like what she wanted, so it wasn't even really a struggle for her really at a point, right, she was just like she was like, yeah, we're like I'm going to be in a career and you're in the mobile infantry, like we're not going to see each other, so blah blah. And then he gets upset because he sees that other guy. And it wasn't even like she was like I'm leaving you for him. It was just

like we're never going to be together. And also there's somebody else here that maybe I'll have a thing with, you know, right, and I just like generally annoyed by like the whole Xander thing. It's like added for the movie.

And also adds nothing. It's like it was. It's always so frustrating to me when a random guys added into a scene where there's a more interesting female character literally sitting right next to him for the every scene he's in, like her captain, Like, I'm like there could we could she could we talk to her? You know, she gets killed and then it's just about this guy Xander, like are they gonna kiss? Or are they going to hit

an asteroid? And that happens like forty times. He also has no personality, like we we literally know nothing about him. He's introduced in the most like basic way of like they're playing some weird new version of football gymnastics Football gymnastics football was fun. That was like one of my

favorite parts. And they're all right, if we all right, we're gonna prove who's the better guy for you're a girl by who wins this sports game, and you're like, first of all, she doesn't care at all, and also why do you what is happening like? And then the two of them have another fight later on where he's like, you know what, let's punch each other. Rank doesn't even matter, and then they just like have this like BROI fist fight, and I'm like, yeah, I was like, don't care about this.

And it's also like even Carmen looks bored during this scene because she's like this is just like is this necessary? And it's like, yeah, I wish I knew what was on your mind. I don't know. And also it's like in general, I don't know. It's we sort of we weirdly talked about this on our Cadet Kelly episode, but it's like, you know, I don't know. In this movie, it's like, I guess you don't often see women in combat in movies, but like this, I don't want to

see fascist women in combat. How is that? Like that's not the representation win I think this movie. I was gonna say, if if fans of yours suggest that this movie, I'm wondering if it's because because of the little crumbs that you're still getting there is a there is a way to look at this and be like wow, like they had women in so many in high ranks of like every part of this military. Like she becomes a pilot,

Like she does better than him. She becomes a pilot, Like you know, you have Dias who's like really great. She has her captain is a woman, like when the general gets taken over, that's like a black woman. Like, so there's like there are and like there are women in combat, and there's never um no one's ever saying things like you're you fight pretty good for a girl, or like there's nothing like that, like I've I grew up one of the boys, like you're not getting any

else on the football team, you know. Like so like in a in a certain way, like if you're just looking at the like kind of general setting that this world is placed in your like, Okay, it seems like

women have some sort of parody in this world. But then the movie is still following the guy, you know, and and because of that, any real conversations are always about him or happening because of him, or as the audience, we're supposed to be thinking about what is going to happen to him because of what else is happening, you

know what I mean. So, and the women are still framed as like basically just being romantic prospects for him supposed to be like a love triangle that we don't care about because that's his story, and his whole story is a is a romantic story, Like even at the end where he's like rab military, Like what does that mean? What does that even mean for him? Like what what decision has he come to outside of just like fascism

is good? I guess I don't know, but he he only has that like the whole journey, that whole character arc because he joined the military for Karen's like otherwise he was going to go to Harvard or something. Just another super weak decision too, because it's also like they knew that they were going to get separated immediately, Like his motivation in the movie makes no sense. He knows he's not going to go to pilot school. He might as well just be going to college, like they would

still be communicating the same way. Like, I don't know. That was one of the things I thought the book did better. Is it at least like he was motivated by something that wasn't just like sure, why not? Like it just just so strange. I don't know. And then on the other hand, you have Dissea's character. Oh my god, I'm so fucking frustrated because there's I had to like

text Kaitlin to make sure I didn't miss something. But Diz, he clearly joined the military to follow Johnny who joined the military to follow Carmen, And I'm just like, why are we all? What are we doing here? And then Dizzy denies that. She denies that she joined the military to follows. Yeah, but then it's like, but clearly she did, and there's no other nothing else has ever presented. So I'm like, oh, I guess her dying words are at least I got you, So she clearly that's exactly why

she She literally had no other purpose in life. That was also a really weak, bizarre death. See, like both actors are giving me nothing, Like She's like, at least I saw you, and he was like, oh, like You're like, oh this is so gross. She's like, at least I got to fuck you one time in a sleeping bag like so bleak um. But but yeah, I don't know.

Dizzy is so such a frustrating character because I feel like Paul Verhoven is almost trying to do this flip thing of like, look, she's aggressively pursuing him and ignoring his boundaries that he's setting, and it's like that's not something you need gender swapped. Really, you don't just swap it and be like is it woke there, like not really, But what's the interesting is that it's riz Right. That's her characters. Why did I say rizz her name isn't

right Disney. Out of all of them, she seemed like the one best equipped to be in the military. And then there is that part that happens to where well, yeah, I was wondering your your takes on that, where like they're doing the obsotitcle course and she like knocks the two guys, you know, into the mud. And then like even like when they first they did something, it was like her plan that like got them to win whatever combat training exercise they were doing. And then he was like, well,

you know, like Disney does, he helped. But then like when it came down to when he got to Pick, like when he was in command again and he like needed whatever I don't know if it wasn't lieutenant but whatever, like right hand Man Corporates, he needed a core full and then he Picks is like, no, I already already screwed it up, dude. I I love that he is being honest with himself. He's like, I am ill equipped, I am just a nepotism pick. I just showed up here.

I'm just Gary Busey's son to please don't pick me. Yeah, and and only then after Gary Busey's son he's probably got a first name, but Jake. Yeah, So only after Jake Busey's character, Like it's like, no, I'm not I'm gonna mess this up again? Does Johnny then turned to Dizzy and be like, what do you want this? Do you?

How about I guess you're right there? So but it's like, yeah, she has proven herself to be capable, but it seems like she keeps getting passed over for promotions and on top of that, because I sometimes get kind of like frustrated when it's like the movie is like I am feminist because for something like justin almost Mary suing a female character. But but that doesn't even happen to Dizzy because we know that she's like a better football player than Johnny at the beginning, like she's she is the

most athletic character, but then she's like never. It's I'm like, I don't know why they go so out of the way to have her never be anyone's top pick for anything, because it was like we're supposed to be in this post gender world because other women are getting opportunity. So I was like, well, then, what why is it her that we don't see, like what's her name? Is flying up the ranks? I mean Carmen is like Carmen's flying up those She's driving a fucking forward focus in space.

Like it's yeah, I I hadn't even thought about like comparing their careers, but it's like there's I don't understand the reason why Dizzy wouldn't be kind of flying up the ranks because she's more capable and this is supposed to be a world where it doesn't matter. Yeah, And then I also wanted to talk about women getting fridged or damseled in this movie, because Dizzy is fridged because

she's killed in combat. And then going back to Carmen really quick she there's a similar sort of like damseling scene at the end where it plays out in a less bad way than I thought it would, where I thought she would like really have to be like, you know, Johnny would have to swoop in and really save the day, but she like holds, she chops off the bit you know, the brain bugs brain sucking tube, uh, and like kind

of like gets away herself. But even so I'm like, Okay, these women are friends in such a way where they are horny for the men around them. Whoever is closest to them is like whoever they're most horny for, and uh, then they are killed or damseled. Usually I choose to interpret Carmen as never being that interested in Johnny because it seems like Johnny's bullying Carmen into being in a relationship with it. It's again that same weird chain of command.

Johnny is trying to bully Carmen into loving him. Meanwhile Dizzy is trying to bully Johnny into loving her. And then at the end you're like, I'm I don't want any of it. And then Karl's just like I'm a fascist, like he's interested in no one. I don't think this is any credit to the movie. But at the end,

they're not like together. They don't have like a one of those like kiss, you know, victory kisses that we see at the end of movies a lot of times, Like she's not She doesn't say anything like we should have always been together anything like that. It's just like, you know, they still care about it. It's I think in the reality of what was presented they wouldn't get together. Like at the end, she'd be like, you're such a

great friend and we should still remain friends. By the way, just just in case you were, you were must be friends and fascists like all three of us are. Yeah, we all the war for you know, killed the bugs.

When ultimately, like Dizzy being fridged kind of like I feel like feeds into this narrative of like she was the right girl for him because she was willing to die for him in the state, unlike Carmen who wanted to fly a chip Like I don't know, the test audiences thought that, like you should have killed the woman who wanted a job. I don't know. Ultimately, I was very uncomfortable looking for feminist messaging inside of a fascist movie, and that was I was like, women can be Nazis too,

I know, it was like this is the reader. If the reader taught me anything, it's that women can also be Nazis. This I mean, I appreciate that Paul Verhoved wanted to say something with this movie, but I just don't think that he was successful. Yeah, going back to the world building of the story and like the quote unquote utopia that this movie is taking place within There does seem to be gender parity in the world of

this story. Sexism doesn't really seem to exist. They tell us that the movie makes sexist choices because it's a movie from the nineties, but the world it is depicting seems to be less sexist, and I feel like a similar thing is happening regarding race, where again the movie makes racist choices, but like, part of the world building in this story is that racism doesn't seem to be much of a problem, which also none of this tracks for fascism, Like the racism and sexism wouldn't exist in

a fascist society, so I don't really understand that. But the movie, like, yeah, it's making some some weird choices regarding race. Jamie, you had mentioned that in the book the characters are Filipino and then that gets whitewashed for

the movie. Yes, And the way the director explains whitewashing it was like he essentially says that he doesn't think that an audience will understand a world like he's like, oh, well, if they're fascists, it would feel weird for them to not be extremely white, which is like I see where he's going with it. I see where he's going to it, but but whitewashing the entire movie seems like an extreme end to go to to. I don't know, Like, well, once again, it's like, sure, but your movie wasn't really

anti fascist in any real way. So like, like again, it's just one of those things where it just seems like a it's like a nice thing to say, but it's like, but that's not really what you were doing. You know you were you weren't making much of a commentary. Just adding a couple of scenes doesn't make much commentary on like why we shouldn't be anti fastest, especially when that everyone wins in the end, Like I don't write

the fascist switch. I uh, that's I feel. Most of my problems with this movie go back to the fact that like everything that director describes of like what he wants to do sounds like pretty interesting and sounds but that, but he just failed at all of those things, like

none of the things happened. I found a quote from an article in screen Rant entitled Starship Troopers meaning explained what it was really about love These kinds of articles, they're like what happened at the end of that'sh I read so many of these articles and reviews being like, oh my gosh, Star Show Troopers is brilliant satire and if you can't see that, then well there's something wrong with you. Um So, as this title suggests, this is

another one of these articles. I've yet to find anything in any of these articles that gives any kind of convincing exam couples or arguments about saying why and how

the satire is clear and effective. None of them have been able to exp They're just like, well, you know a lot of the audiences took the film at face value, but they're missing the point because well, the movie puts the characters in Nazi regalia, So that's obvious satire, get it, But it's not obvious satire if the Nazis win, Like I don't understand how hard that is to explain, because it's like he's explaining Star Warship that like it's clearer in Star Wars because they're the bad guys, or if

like even if they do win, if it's so obviously horrible, like if it's so obviously horrible to us, but again, the motivation, like even having the motivation for Johnny change because his parents were killed by the bugs. Like that's real. That's a real thing now, Like now I'm in now I'm like, yeah, I mean like maybe the reason this war started wasn't great, but these bugs just like destroyed

an entire city, like millions and millions of people. Like that's a real reason to go to war, you know what I mean, Like that's a real reason to like join an army and be like I'm gonna be like either defend Earth or enact revenge because like you're everyone you knew was killed, like you know, whether that even the revenge part, even if that's wrong, you can there's still like a you know, a touch point that we all we can relate to it like yeah, man, if

like if everybody I knew was wiped out, like and I had nothing else to live for, like you know, so that's that's what I'm talking about, Like we and then we don't get any of that. Like like there's like a slight satirical thing for him, like when he when Neil Patrick Harris is there and he's like that's what we're infantry for. We do the dying, you know,

and blah blah blah does the flying. But then like but then they win and like the guy was proven right, Like he was like, all right, we captured the like all of my everything I did worked, you know, and it was like, okay, so it just like it does and land at all like it. Well, here's the quote from this article. Quote in a two fourteen interview with the Adam Corolla Show, a Great Start, Okay, said the

king of perfect takes. What did he say? Michael Ironside, who plays Um rass Check in the film, Um, who played a militant officer in Starship Troopers, said that he asked Verehoven why he was making a right wing fascist movie. To that, Verehoven told him, if I tell the world that a right wing fascist way of doing things doesn't work, no one will listen to me. So I'm going to

make a perfect fascist world. Everyone is beautiful, everything is shiny, everything has big guns and fancy ships, but it's only good for killing fucking bugs. End quote. So the director clearly wanted a message that was more subtle and like not super preachy, which I totally understand for certain things, but I don't think that subtlety is necessarily the way

to go when speaking out against fascism. The other thing that's hard about this is like it's not like everyone in that world was like we need to kill Like, yes, the people in the army were like that, but like we get a sense that there is a world to fight for, you know what I mean, Like there's a

world to defend for. And the intro to all this is like the bugs are like hurling asteroids at Earth, and we know that like an asteroid in real life like killed all of the dinosaurs, So it's kind of like, yeah, they're trying to commit like a genocide of the human race, so that's a legitimate reason to fight people. And then the only suggestion that we get that like humans start at the war is like these like one liners I think that come at like two differ in points and

it's not explained at all. So and we don't relate to the bugs at all. So I don't know why anyone would look at this movie and go, I don't want to live in this world, because at the end of the day, I'm like, yeah, like maybe I wouldn't want to join the military, but I'm glad we have a military. I'm glad they're doing what they do. So that I don't get wiped out by an asteroid being

hurled at, right. It's like even because it's like we we have not covered many movies about war on this show, uh, and I do think like it is like I have like a lot of different feelings about war movies, but it's like there are war movies that are well done that make it like clear the like brutal nous and the different sacrifices and the different reasons that everyone comes to be in a war, whether they want to or not,

depending on what the war is. And it's like this movie starts that and then it just doesn't do anything with it. Like I really do like the group shower scene in this movie that I feel like it's like the strongest start you get into like some insight into like why people are you know, why people in list and like what the different circumstances are that kind of bring you there instead of doing a wide sweeping like

war and everyone who participates it in is bad. Like that is like an easy point to make for someone who has never been involved in a war, like I don't. But then it just all falls apart. Man, it's a bummer, yeah, um, And then to go back to that conversation about race. Um, so we have these whitewashed characters, which, like I understand the intention behind Verhoven's choice to do that. Instead, though, he has the characters be from Argentina and they maintain

their Latin names from the book. So you know, you've got like Juan Rico, Carmen Ibanez, Dizzy Flores like, but they're all played by like white American actors. It's weird and I don't like, I'm just like, well, I don't know what Argentina is, like you know, seven hundred years in the future when this movie takes place or whenever it's supposed to take place. But that just felt like another peculiar choice. And again it's not even like he's like saying this, but it's like, yeah, but there are

black people. There are people of color like in the film, Like it's just that they're not they're all supporting characters. Like they're all like minor supporting characters. Like, so you just had all your leads be white. I don't know, you can say whatever you want, like, it's like it's not like you had it's not like some genocide had taken place in like all of like in this world there are no black people anymore, you know what I mean? Or whatever. It is like it's like they're still there.

They clearly can serve, like they can reach high ranking positions, just that we don't know who any of those people are because you're not focusing on any of them. And it even seems like to the point where there's kind of like a revolving door of non white characters where we meet who's the who's the woman we meet in boot camp who is partially responsible for the for the guy's head being blown off, and like it's her Johnny that they're like they're the two people, and then she

leaves the military. Fair enough, I would also be like this is clearly not for me. But it's like we we had a strong introduction to her, like she was like I want to be in politics and like I have this dream and I was like, oh cool, But then ten minutes later she was like I'm out of here. I feel like she didn't leave on her own ac court.

I feel like she got like discharged, Like yeah, I'm not even sure, because then Johnny has to like fight to stay exactly well, they were going to maybe boot him and they were like they were like, look, we already lost two soldiers for this, let's not lose a third. And then it was kind of like, what why do you want to say that, dude, not that right, black

just kicked out. But the fact that it's not even clear, because my read was she left on her own accord because she was just so upset over the death of this team member of hers so like. But the fact that it's not clear means that we, like the story doesn't bother to check in with her and like see how she's feeling or what exactly happened because of the movie has no vested interest in any of the characters

who are people of color. Yeah, there's no explanation. It's the basically, we get one image and it's her with her backpack crying looking at everybody in the background of the scene, like you're like that that was so freight and then our other I like that. The other black characters we get to know well are Corporal Sugar Watkins. And then who is that that there's the dude from The Walking Dead. Yea, to you, he's dude from the Walking Dead. To me, he's the guy from Teen Wolf.

He's been a lot of TV. I guess he was also on the wire, but unfortunately, yes, that's right, he's on the wire. He's a cop on the wire. My brain doesn't work, and therefore I know him from teen Wolf, the series that's hilarious. But yeah, Watkins, that character. He's the guy who sacrifices himself at the end for all

of the white people. And we don't meet him till halfway through, like there he just he shows up in the middle of the second act, and it's like there's no there's no non white characters that we get to see their storyline all the way through at all. I don't even think any of them survive that, right, I wonder the other one because there are two black people. It was like him. It was like him and the and the and that woman right, yeah, whose name? I feel like I said out loud once what is her name?

So many people die? I can't believe, how did Johnny live through that attack? By the way, did we ever talk about that? Like, how did he how did he possibly vibe? How did they get him out of there? He's not even hood like, he's not even how did he possibly live? They were gone, everyone had fallen back,

there was like legions of bugs swarming. There was one that comes crawling on top of him when he's completely pinned, and we're supposed to we're supposed to believe that not only did they get him out of here, but they

but he survived, right right? Who saved him? I feel like I I've already stated I do not I'm not a fan of Xander, but he was definitely better at war than Johnny was, and he got his brain sucked out, but when he was surrounded by like one tenth of the amount of bugs, he got his brain sucked dry. I love the idea that sucking like they can find out information by sucking the brains like live like because

it's like, oh, they're still alive. So like if we suck there like live brains will like it's ingestre in formation. Like I don't even know what that was supposed to be. I will say I do like of the things I do like about this movie. Uh, I love nasty, nasty body horror effects, and this movie really does deliver if you're a fan of nasty body. Dude, people are getting

slow my god like cartoons slaughter. Yeah, Like it wasn't even close like like they just ripped apart limb from limb, just impaled constantly, just like they're the brains suck that. You're just like, oh, so it's so I'm hard to like get grossed out, but there was something I was like, fuck, that is absolutely disgusting, and I feel like, you know,

it's so funny. I feel like I feel like I've seen I saw this movie a couple of times, and one time I didn't watch it all the way through, and I just thought that they just all died at the end because I was just like, well, there's no chance they're getting out of this, like when they're well, like when they get trapped in that like desert things like there's there's zero chance you make it out of here.

And I feel like that's how this movie should have ended, which is like everyone die, like just everyone dying, and then it would have been then I would have been like it is kind of a critique on fascism, isn't it right? Yeah, fascism doesn't work. The bugs will kill you one, Um, what a disaster. Truly. Also worth noting that there are a couple disabled characters, the main one being roz Check, who is played by an able bodied

actor Michael Ironside. His character has an arm that's been amputated. Yeah, and it's like very very of this era to not even consider having a disabled actor play a disabled character. But on top of that, it's like it seems like his disability is mainly used to scare people, which is uh also uh not very thoughtful. Uh. Top to bottom, it felt like intentional to be like look at like the like this is what war does to you. It's

like just dismembers you. And but these people are all still serving, you know, and they're like you should be lucky to like go to war and lose a leg, you know. Yeah, and there's some interesting commentary to be had there. Did the movie make it? Yeah? Again, any commentary this movie makes is is like passing and suggestions, but like never the actual point of the movie. Yeah,

you know, I was. I was truly surprised at how many writers and critics and like have just like kind of put it all on the line to say that actually this movie is saying everything. But it's like, well, I don't know, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree there with all the people who wrote what you don't understand about Starship Troopers. You tiny brained fool, Like, right, what did you get your brain sucked out? You don't even know that this movie is awesome satires, get your

brains gone by a bug? That's the thing is like, there's just like, yeah, there's a little again, We've said this so many times. There's a little bit, but it's not enough. It's just I don't know. Yeah, I have to imagine that this was hard to get a lot

of stuff approved. And it's like, I will give Verhoven the fact that it's like, especially with the movie with this big of a budget, like I'm sure that he that stuff that would have he would have liked to have in the movie didn't end up in there, and like, but but there's so many high level decisions that fail that it's like, well, he's got to take he's got to take the l to some extent. Yeah, it's disappoint

it's disappointing. It's like I was actually hoping that there would be a lot more commentary than it feels like that. It feels like there was, and it's just like one of these things where I'm like nobody who believes in this stuff is going to watch this movie and think that their way of thinking is incorrect. Like, if anything, this movie we just reaffirms what people believe, you know, Like yeah, because that's what that's that's the consequences of

the movie. The gods because of the movie are like, Yeah, this guy is a hero and he saved a bunch of people, and he, you know, was dedicated to the cause, and if everybody works together and we're militaristics, they will always defend our home. Like I don't know, like, there's no there's nothing else presented for that to for that to not be thee I totally agree. Yeah, I don't see a fascist watching this movie and then being like, oh my gosh, I was so wrong. I need to

change my mind. Has a fascist mind that change by Starship Troopers. That's the true yardstick. And like, I want to be clear that people are welcome to disagree with us. I'm sure there are listeners who see this movie as clear and effective satire, especially because, like as director Paul Verhoeven has stated, that was his intent with the film.

So I'm not arguing about his intentions. And he's coming from a particularly he's coming from a place where he is better qualified than a lot of people to make art critiquing fascism because he was raised in Nazi occupied Amsterdam. My argument is that for me, his intentions did not come across as clearly as I think they could or should have if you're trying to condemn militaristic fascist ideologies.

I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I and I also like, I I really, I really love the intent behind this movie, and I think it's like a really ballsy idea to be like, I'm going to take this source material that's really fucked up and I'm going to say the opposite while using the same story. Like, I don't think that that's an impossible thing to do, but it just it just didn't work out for this one. We should do more Paul Verhoeven movies, though, he I mean, what a catalog,

what a legacy. How have we not done show Girls at this point? Oh my gosh, she simply must shocking. We'll get there. That's a good one to do for this podcast, for sure. Yeah, does this movie pass the Bechtel test? I don't know. I think it does. I think it very very briefly. Does they are standards which are like, I mean the standards of the test in general are pretty a little bit. Carmen and her commanding officer, who is named, but what is her name? She is? Oh,

that was my question. She does get named, but I could not tell you exactly what it is. Dizzy talks to a corporal as well. That's the other thing I had. And then Dizzy and Carmen do have one scene where there at least one scene um where uh, Carmen's like, hi, Disney, and Disney says Carmen, we know their names, face me to each other. The like subtext behind that is connected to a boy. Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, who, like,

are you dating my ex boyfriend? Oh my god. The looks that Dizzy shoots Carmen while Carmen's minding her business is very funny. But it's it's a loose pass. It's a barely pass. Yeah, it's a it's a loose pass.

Yeah all right, Yeah. I think something I want to do moving forward, just for like my personal Bechdel test um analysis is could the conversation that arguably does pass the Betel tests be removed from the movie and the movie is no different or like the plot is not effective, Like is it an important conversation that like informs the story. If not, then it's like a not good pass. I

like that, thank you so much. I mean, it's so hard for this film because there's like a part of me that's like, does any like what is the story really at the end of the you know what? What is the takeaway? It's so hard to care about any of these characters. But I guess in terms of like Carmen's journey, her relationship with the captain, even though it's so barely there, is like informative to like her character

arc in some way, and she does become the captain. Yeah, so like her the captain like talking to her about anything, which is generally about her career. It's like because that's kind of her motivation. So yeah, I guess in that sense, it's because if her captain wasn't it wasn't a woman, then that this movie would have no shot, right right, it's not. It simply is not. I don't know, like

I should Should we just do the ratings? Yeah, let's just do a nipple rating, which is a scale of zero to five nipples based on an examination of the movie through an intersectional feminist lens So all things considered, everything we talked about, I'm going to have to give this movie maybe a half nipple. The women in this movie are framed in relation to like the men in their life, or like they're there because they know Johnny Rico kind of thing, and I just didn't find really

any of their arc source storylines very compelling. And then again the execution of this political satire not being very clear. I think here's here's what I wrote in my notes, Team America World Police is more effective satire and condemnation of like military practices than Starship. Absolutely thank you is

like because it's so the intent is so clear. You can disagree with like the jokes that they do and and that kind of stuff, but there it's it's it's such an obvious thing of being like, this is how America sees itself. It's so absolutely and utterly ridiculous that we see ourselves as the world please because that's really absolutely yeah. And that's not to say that like that satire can't be subtle, but if it's so subtle that it's not really there, such as Starship Troopers, it doesn't

really work. Yeah. Um, well anyway, yeah, half nipple and I'll give it to the bugs because you know they've just they were just colonized and what did they do wrong? Right? Yeah? From from intersectional feminist Lens. I I'm giving good zero. I don't want, I don't like, I don't I don't want to root for a fascist girl boss and I'm not going to. So I'm giving good zero because even when the women are portrayed with arcs and with dreams

and with ambitions, um, they're they're fascists. I don't. Yeah, no nipples, no nipples, none to distribute. Come on, I appreciate. I appreciate the Verhoeven effort. I am. I I like, I think his work is really risky and and bizarre. And this just what this one didn't didn't hit for me. Um yeah, I feel like I'm graving grading it on a curve and also based on my own expectations coming in.

So I was going to give it one and a half only because I did think that for what the world was like, they did have women in different positions and like they had black women too, and like you know, she like took over the military, and you know they were like good, like they could hold their own there wasn't.

You know. I just feel like this time period, there's there's so much of that like, oh, your sporty spice, you know what I mean, Like you're the oh you're a tomboy like and that that conversation like just truly didn't even exist in the film, and like people seemed to acknowledge everyone's skills for what they were and they didn't like add gender on top of that. Yeah that said, like it's still I mean, it was just completely like the movies, like like everything the movie says is not Yeah,

it has nothing to do with any of that. But I don't know, I just I just feel like it still did more than a lot of films at the time, which wasn't saying much. But yeah, yeah what a time. We did get Titanic, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Um, all right, so that's Starship Troopers. You asked for it. Yeah, but for the people who ask you happy now, I hope you're happy. I bet they're not, though, I bet they're not that they wanted us to be, like it's secretly genius.

They're furious with us. Yeah, the people who asked for it aren't happy, and the people who didn't ask for our like I didn't ask. They're really unhappy. They're not listening right now. They're like, I'm upset, amazing, how this is our worst episode ever. I'm I'm actually genuinely very glad that we went down the rabbit hole in this one because I feel curious about it for a long time. And uh, it is, I mean, it's it. I don't think it accomplishes what it's trying to, but it's definitely unique.

I've never seen a movie like this, and I so there is that indeed. Jonathan, thank you so much for being here with us, for joining us in this discussion. Where can people check out your stuff? Follow you on social media? Yeah, you can follow me at John Braylock j O N B R A Y L O C k uh podcast Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood's available where we get your podcasts if you want to. We also we talk about films with leading black actors in

the context of race. Um, that's super fun And if you've never seen Astronomy Club on Netflix, check it out. It's fun. So on Netflix six episodes, a quick binge. We'll finish it maybe in one city. You simply mus it's very funny the best. Yeah, yeah, that's it cool. Thanks, thanks so much for hanging out with us. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great. I would love to Yeah and uh yeah. You can follow us on social

media as well, Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon, patreon dot com slash Spectel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it gets you access to two bonus episodes plus the entire back catalog. So and then you can get our merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. Uh go bugs, bugs Hi