Spanglish with Melissa Lozada Oliva

You're the worst movie ever, even though that makes no sense. Yeah, yeah, I said it. Look at my hair. It looks I've never seen Adam Sandler's hair looking so bad. Ah, well, that didn't pass the Becktel test at all. I think if we're dumping on Adam Sandler, that actually does pass the Bechtel tests. The hair like, yeah, this was what? Welcome to the Bechdel cast. Um, Caitlin, you were you?

How long have you been learning Spanish? Now? Nearly two years, although I also studied it in high school in college, but I forgot everything I learned back then, and now I've been re learning. It's been starting fresh amazing. Shouts out to Due Lingo, and shout out to my Spanish tutors Adriana and Mercedes. They're the best anyway. Well, that's uh. That that was Caitlin Toronte you heard well, and and

and that was Jamie Loftus. Yeah. Uh. And this is our show where we take your favorite movies and take another look at it through an intersectional feminist lens and make fun of it or not, using the Bechdel test, which is what well. It is a media metric created by queer cartoonists Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test.

There are many versions of the test. The one that we use these days requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names, They must speak to each other in any language, and that conversation has to be clarification. Of course, it doesn't just have to be English, it can be English, and that conversation has to be about

something other than ombre a man. I got that, yeah, but um, yes, So we use that as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation in and uh with us to join in in that conversation is a returning guest. She's a writer, poet host of the podcast. To say more, Her new book Dreaming of You just came out at the end of October and you remember her from our episode on thirt Team Going on thirty. It's Melissa Lozatta Aliva. Hi, thanks for having me back back.

I shouldn't have had a sip of water while you guys were talking, almost like electrocuted myself with a spittake in my reporting that My god. Um, I'm so excited to talk about this movie. Yes, I am so thrilled that you brought us this movie. Well, first, before we get started, please tell our listeners a little bit about your book, because I just want to make sure we're talking about it at the beginning and everyone's gonna order this damn book. Yeah. My book is UM. It's a

novel in verse. I guess um. That's how it's being marketed. I think it's a rock I think it's a rock opera, UM, and it's about its palms. It's a story of a young poet whose name is also Melissa Um, who brings to Hannah pop star Selena back to life through a seance and the disastrous consequences that follow and it's about like loneliness and obsession and celebrity and death and the occult maybe and WiFi. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, everyone get into it if you don't already have a copy,

because it's amazing. Hell yeah thanks. And in terms of Spanglish, why did you choose this movie to discuss and what is your connection to it? That sounded very accusatory. Excuse me, could you fucking explain yourself board of game? Like, what what is your connection to history with this movie? It's almost Yeah, I came out in two thousand four. Yeah, I have a very This movie is so weird. I'm

still like very sentimental about it. I saw it on Christmas Day with my family because Latinos we celebrate it on Christmas Eve Christmas, but we all like went together as a family, and it was like right before my parents got divorced, and like all of my like my grandmother was there and my mom and my sister and my whole family was like crying because my mom was like, this is the story of my life. Um, and it was very like oh, like my sister would like translate

from my mom. My mom never had like a weird affair with Adam Sandler. But and then I think yeah, and then I like re examined it in college and saw, you know, all of the weirdness about it. And I have this like fascination with Christina, who's like main character and how I don't know this, I'm like really interested in this idea of the like young Latin child being like a genius and like the Latin young Latin child to Hamilton's pipeline um of like yeah, so anyway, I

love this movie. So but it's also anyway, we we'll talk about it, Jamie, what's your relationship with it? I also really liked this movie. I saw it when it came out. Yeah, because I was like twelve in this movie came out. I don't know, but I remember seeing it in theaters with my mom. I feel like it was marketed as kind of like a mother daughter movie, and so we went and I really liked it. I also was not allowed to watch Adam Sandler movies, so

I was like, wow, Adam Sandler is so boring. What does everyone like so upset about based on this movie? But then this movie was also on T and T all the time, so I'd watch it whenever it was, I was, yeah, and I really, um, it's interesting. I haven't watched this movie in at least five years. It's definitely longer than I remembered two hours, two hours in

eleven minutes. Yeah, and I also wasn't I didn't remember that it was a James Brooks movie, which is like so bizarre on so many levels that we'll, I mean, we'll talk about it. But yeah, this is the first time i'd watched it since I had a better understanding of like who James Brooks was other than a name at the beginning of The Simpsons. So I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah, I still like this movie is still hit for me a lot watching it, Like there's

there's there's ship, There's plenty of ship. But there were still moments where I was like, oh, that's a really beautiful scene. Yeah, there's a lot of poetry in it. There is. Yeah, it's nice. Also, I asked, the sailer's hair is so distracted against is it a wig? Like? Is it a wig? Like? I don't. I feel like I've never seen his hair that like thick. It felt like a wit. Maybe he just has a buzz. Usually it's not as though they were like lacking for a budget.

It's like there was a hair and makeup budget. The budget for this movie was eighty million dollars and was also a box office flop because it only grows like fifty five million or something. But which is like so silly because that's million. Is I think, like pretty respectable for a rom com. This movie just shouldn't have cost eighty million dollars. It was like there was like three locations, right,

Is that just like the cost of Adam Sandy. Yeahdam sand there was probably like seventy million, and like no offense to Adam Sandler, but that could have been so many white guys like that could have been any other guy. He was really badly miscast in that role. Yeah, this is by far the most random Adam Sandler movie. And it is like an Adam Sandler movie movie. He's like on the front of the he's like on the poster

which is in the forefront. It's almost like distracting that he's in it at times because it's like the I don't know, like I thought it was interesting that like a man doesn't I don't think speak. For the first like fifteen minutes of this movie, like it's all Christina and floored, or it's like Deborah, deborahng out to her daughter and like it's all women talking, and then all of a sudden, it's like and here's Adam Sandler, and you're just like, I do we need it? I don't know. Uh, Caitly,

what's your history of this movie? Oh my gosh, Well, I had not seen this movie before, so I had no emotional attachment to it. I was going in very fresh, and I am so sorry, but I hate shit. It's so much. I hate it. I think it's very bad. I have reasons here. They are. The storytelling is choppy. Every scene is overwritten, so so so overwritten. The editing and the pacing is very weird. The tone is very

weird and inconsistent. The tone is confusing. I feel like the Hans Zimmer music was trying to like do some heavy lifting and like making it clearer how you're supposed to feel sometimes but right, it's a college essay. It's a weird like random voice of the framing devices is strange. I have never felt less compelled or convinced by a

romance between two people on screen. There are different conflicts that are like set up and then just like dropped, like loose threads that get even looser and looser as the movie goes. And then all the reasons that we'll talk about in the context of like our podcast, that I think are missteps. But I've never been so deeply bored by a movie in my entire life. God, Holy Ship, Coming in Hot, Coming in So sorry, but that is how I feel, and I have to speak my truth

fair enough there. Honestly, some of the overwriting, I don't know, I just like the tone gets bizarre at some point where it's like, also, I feel like removing Adam Sandler and like telling Taloni to take it down a couple of notches could have resolved the tone issues too, because there was some things that was like, I like Taloni was like was maybe not communicated with very effectively of like this isn't like you're not doing like a when Harry mets Tally Orcass in this that whole scene, Oh

my gosh, blocked that out because I was like, you don't even need me the mother of two children right here, and then as she orgasm, she goes what which is like in another movie could have been pretty funny but in this movie was like, what is going on? Because then it cuts to like a pretty serious because I think that the takeaway from that seems supposed to be like they're not connecting. That's never before I thought the tone issues are kind of funny too. Um, well, let's

let's talk about it. Yeah, I'll do the recap and then we'll go from there. Okay. So there is this framing device where a young woman, Christina Moreno, has submitted a college Emissions essay about the story that we are about to see unfold, and then we get her voice over throughout the movie, which is like her reading this essay telling this story. So it begins with us meeting six year old Christina and her mother, Floored, played by

pass Vega. They live in Mexico. Flora's husband has just left the family, so Florida decides to take Christina and immigrate to the US. They go to l A, Florida works a couple of jobs, then, after six years of living there, her cousin Monica sets her up with an interview for a higher paying job working as a housekeeper for the Klatsky family. Trouble is, Florida doesn't speak English,

so Monica accompanies her to the interview to translate. During this interview, we meet Deborah that's Taloni, her daughter Bernie, Deborah's mother Evelyn played by Cloris Leachman. They're a well to do family in l A. Deborah's husband is her husband is a top chef, the top chef, and then they say like she She's like they do like, I don't know. James Brooks is like, I feel like he always gives me just enough that I'm like, God, I

guess I can't be mad at him about that. I'll have to find something else, right, Like you find out that Deborah used to do something, but then something something Now she doesn't. Now she's a full time mom. She's like an interior decorator or something. Some design persons like a movie job. So Debora offers Floored the job. So she and Christina celebrate. Then Florida starts the job, which is when we meet John that's Adam Sandler. She starts working.

There's definitely a language barrier between her and the family. Deborah is very high strung. She we see her get on her daughter's case about her weight, including when she buys clothes for Bernie that she knows are too small for her, and it hopes that they will motivate her to lose weight. Evil, horrible. Deborah is never like redeemed the whole time. She really a bad person. Yeah, she's just like cartoon evil. Yeah, right, like and it kind of like it gets worse as the movie goes on.

She gets worse and worse. I don't know. That thing to Bernie was like, I was like, that's worse than when she cheated on Adam Sandler as far as I'm concerned. That was pure evil. Yeah, that was that was the worst thing. Who's that actress who plays Bernie. I haven't seen her in any she was I unfortunately, but it out myself as someone who has watched every episode of The Good Wife. She was on the she was she was the daughter on The Good Wife. Sarah Steele is

her name. Yeah, So this obviously very much upsets both Bernie and John, but Deborah is all like John, we

have to be on the same page as parents. So then John confides in Florida about this, even though she doesn't understand what he's saying, but she does understand why Bernie was upset, so she takes some of the clothes and alters them so that they will fit Bernie, and then has Christina teach her how to say just try it on in English so that she can tell Bernie to try on the jacket and she does and it fits.

Then we get this whole sequence where this restaurant critic had come to John's restaurant and then he reads what turns out to be a very good review of his restaurant in the Times, and everyone in the family is super excited. And this is when we get that very weird sex scene between Adam Sandler and Talione where she's like screaming at the top of her lungs. I don't think he's even inside of her right because he's like

he keeps saying, you can do this without me. That's false propaganda about how easy it is to makes one coom. That's also it's like, aren't their kids home? She's like screaming doors open during that the door is open. The kids were just right there reading the review like it's so confusing. Should have cut it? Should have cut it? Kind of glad they didn't, because it's just like, should have been cut, Like we already knew that the relationship

wasn't working, Like, why did they do that? It's funny,

I don't I think every scene should have been cut. Okay, the then Deborah rents a house in Malibu for the family to stay in for the summer, and she wants Floor to stay with them as well, which at first she refuses because she doesn't want to leave her daughter, Christina behind, But then Deborah is like, no, your daughter can live here too, So Florida and Christina move into this rental home for the summer, which some drama ensues from there, where Florida is mad that Deborah took Christina

shopping and to get her hair done without telling floored. Um. Then there's this whole thing with John offering to pay the kids to find sea glass, which Christina finds a bunch of and then he pays her like over six hundred dollars for it, and then Florida calls him out for meddling in her daughter's life. I mean, he should have told Florida that that was like that he was giving her like rent money. I was like, you can't just give a thirteen year old six hundred dollars. What

will they do? Yeah? Right, Yeah, that was kind of perverted. Yah, So she calls him out, and then he calls her out for meddling in his daughter's life when she altered Bernie's clothes. Also, Christina is translating for both of them during this scene because Florida still does not speak English. And then Florida is you're right, I am a hypocrite and John is like, wow, it's so cool that you admit that you agree with me, and that you admit

it's so cool when you tell me I'm right. And then this is the beginning of what seems like it might be a romance between them. And then this is also when Flora starts to learn English, which she appears to do in a week. It's like the summers. Yeah, like yeah, but she's already been there for a while and it just seems like she learns she becomes fluent in English very fast. I do like the scene where her and what's Evelyn Evelyn's chorus? Leachman is that her name? Yeah?

I do like when I like on the couch and she's like holding a glass of wine and repeating English words with her because she's just like wasted. Yeah. I had a totally false memory of this movie. That was like ended up being way too kind to the movie that in my memory of this movie, I was like, Oh, yeah, Adam Sandler also learns some Spanish, but that doesn't happen. Oh no, don't. No one in the Klatskey family learns

a single word of Spanish. It doesn't come up. Okay, So she is learning English and then one night John comes home really drunk and it seems like he's trying to flirt with Flora. Deborra is out somewhere. It seems like she's kind of sneaking around. We're not really sure

what's going on there. And then Debora gets Christina a scholarship at a private school where Bernie goes, and Flora feels weird about it, as if you know, Deborrah is still meddling in her daughter's life, which she is, And then Flora talks to John about it and they bond a bit over that. Then one night, Debora confesses to John that she's been having an affair and John leaves the else and as he's leaving, he takes Florida with him, who, by the way, she was there to quit her job

working for them. They keep gas lighting this poor woman into not quitting her job that she wants to quit sop A Headley, Yeah, yes, so much manipulation from everybody. And then so John is like, hey, Florida, do you want to hang out? And she's like, I guess. So then he takes her to his restaurant and he's like, you're beautiful, and then they kiss and then they talk all night. He says they should name a gender after you, but also he has that hair what he's saying, they

should name agenda after you. Like, he's also like periodically screaming throughout the movie. He's like, if I can't even look at you right now, I quit this job. I feel this is like this is like an early dramatic turn for Adam Stanley, right because he did that Paul Thomas Anderson movie that everyone loves the name that I don't remember, Punch Drunk Glove, Punch Drunk Glove. Everyone loved

his dramatic turn and Punch Runk Clove. And then I think people were maybe like because that movie was from two thousand two, and I think everyone's like, oh, like, he could probably do any part, but the answer was no, he can just scream. He can do punch Drunk glove and he can do Hube Halloween. He can be Hube Halloween, and he can do I keep wanting to say, the righteous gems, uncut gems. He can do um slunt gems and all the other ones. Stinky, stinky, stinky. Oh gosh,

they should name it gender after you. So he's all like, you're beautiful, and they kiss and they're talking and then Florida is like I love you, and we're like what, And then Florida runs away, and then the next day she tells Christina and the rest of the Classkey family that she quits, and there's this big, tearful goodbye. Flora says goodbye to John and they leave, and Christina is really mad at Floora for quitting and pulling her out

of this private school. But then Christina soon forgives her mother and understands that everything she does is for Christina. And that's the end of this movie. That doesn't have a plot, not but that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss and we're back. Does anyone want to start any particular place with this movie? We know Caitlin does not like

I'm curious us to know. I want to hear more about like your experience, Melissa watching this as a younger person with your family, and like the connection you had to it culturally and things like that. I mean, I think when I first saw it, it was like okay, two thousand four, so I was like, oh my God, like represent Tacion. Like I think my mom was really emotional about it, as I said before, like my older sister would like translate around for her, and like my

mom would like clean houses. I mean, watching it now, there are a bit of things that are like slightly two dimensional about the Moreno family, I guess, but I think it's still pretty good about like class and like xenophobia. I was like surprised at how good of it it was in two thousand four. And I don't know. I think like Christina in particular, really like I feel like I've been that like young Latin child where these like scary white ladies like see a lot of things in me.

And I really think that the movie takes this like almost radical turn where she's like, oh no, like I'm taking my daughter away from this, like she can do she can be successful in this country without assimilating or being like like being part of whiteness. And I think that's I also like always fucking lose my ship when she says I stand firmly in my identity, like relies on one thing, and that is I am my mother's daughter.

Kills me. It kills me. Um. Yeah, that makes sense and that that all attracts to me, and I think that is the movies one striketh um. But yeah, for me, Like one of the things that pinned me was just that for the first half of the movie, Florida is like not really the focus. She isn't given Like so many of the scenes revolve and so much of the tension and conflict revolve around this white family. Even though Florida is the protagonist, she's framed as the protagonist of

this movie. And I just feel like, if you're going to tell a story about an immigrant woman from Mexico coming to the US with her young daughter and kind of grappling with this, like do I make an effort to learn this new culture and language and assimilate or do I maintain my my cultural identity from Mexico and all these things that an immigrant has to deal with

and think about. I cannot think of a more boring version of this story than this movie, where like she isn't even the focus for the first half of the movie, and then when she does start to become the focus, it's it's because she's learning English and is now better able to communicate with this rich white family and then is falling in love with Adam Sandler, and then yeah, I I definitely felt like this movie, like kept rewrote, like, I think that there's an argument that the actually, like

this movie was marketed as Adam Sandler being the protagonist. The introduction to the movie wants you to believe that Flora is the protagonist, but then the way the movie plays out, you're like, it could be Deborah. Also like there's like it is kind of confusing this is Deborah story and the story beginning middle an end is Deborah

sucks like she's terrible. But I yeah, I felt like there were some creative traces that I wanted to, like, I don't know, just get everyone's opinions on, because I also felt like not even I mean, it feels like we're not spending enough time with Florida from much of the second act, but also like I felt like James L. Brooks and I like read some interviews with him, and his choice is to not include subtitles in this movie was like very very deliberate. He didn't want there to

be subtitles. Yeah, and I I mean, I do not speak Spanish, and I felt like not letting us know what Florida was saying was like putting the audience in Oh yeah, I don't know. It just like it was creating distance between me and like the protagonist, who I want to know what she's saying. I want to know

what she's feeling, but I don't know. I just found that to be kind of like a frustrating experience because the performance is so good and there's like a lot in the story that I wish was like focused on more, But it just felt like there was like this this distance created between I guess me and the movie that

I wish wasn't there. That is so weird because it does seem to be like a movie made for like white American audiences, so like the decision should not put subtitles in, it's like, let's like for there, make this woman like it's like put her on this like weird ethnic pedestal where she's kind of like mute, almost like

and just like miming all the time. Yeah, it was like it's like yeah it was again and not that every movie should cater to my exact like the languages that I speak, but but particularly because it's like a movie by like a legacy white guy. I was like why did you do this? Like yeah, I don't know, why is he the one to tell this story? Like who who is James L. Brooks to be like, you know, who knows exactly what it is to be a woman

from Mexico immigrating to the US? Me James L. Brooks, Like like yeah, well, I'm thinking like this movie is like a really good like case study on whiteness in the same way maybe the White Lotus is because like the person who made it, like who knows whiteness better than James L. Brooks maybe you know, or or the same thing with like I mean, Roma is a movie

in Mexico, but it's about like white Mexicans. And then you're like realizing that like Mexicans can be white because you're seeing it's like in black and white and you're seeing like how much darker skinned the indigenous like Housekeeper is. But like that movie was made by someone who like grew up rich and white in Mexico and was like, I want to examine and like interrogate this. So I feel like the class keys are really like three dimensional and I'm like, I feel like I know people like this.

And then Flood like her family, you just see them like in like two minute births, like eating to Molly's right, right, it's like you don't spend any time with her family, yeah, and you spend so much time with the yeah, right in the few scenes early on where you would get some insight into Flora's life, like when she's communicating with her daughter or her cousin Monica or something like that.

Because the movie isn't subtitled, it makes it kind of unaccessible to your average American movie going audience member, which again, it's not as though every movie needs to cater to that person, but James L. Brooks movies do, so it's just like confusing. Yeah, when you're releasing a James L. Brooks movie into the US, like chances are you're again average member of the audience speaks one language and it's English.

So yeah, that it was an interesting choice that I don't think was super effective and only served to yeah, just sort of like other floor more and not let the audience get to know her and like understand what

she's dealing with and when she's going through. Yeah. Yeah, I've always been like, um, like this is like the fifth time I've watched this movie, and I'm always like struck by how Florida is just such like a I don't know this like Mexican sage who has she like embodies like the best qualities of like a woman, which is like like she's like the best mother and she's like hervacious and she's sensitive and kind and like like her personality is being like a womb like yeah, yeah, yeah,

she's very mommy. She's very mommy. She's so huge mommy. Yeah.

But I did I mean going back to where you started, Melissa, I mean I think that like the relationship with Florida and Christina is like so like that's one of the most effective parts of the movie and anytime there's and also just like the chemistry between those two actors was so good and I wish, like there are so many threads in this movie that were more interesting to me than And it's not like I didn't want her to have love, like I I also like whatever, like it's

MS and I, and to an extent, I do understand what she and Adam Sandler saw in each other if I really thought about it. I'm glad that the movie is kind of like, well, obviously this is going to work out because um, yeah, she's too good for and he's a mess. But I mean I did see what they saw in each other, but it just it felt like the I really enjoyed scenes with Florida and Christina and Florida and Bernie. I wish that you got more

with like Christina and Bernie. I thought that there was like probably a cool dynamic there that you never really got to see. There were some elements of Deborah that was like, oh, this is like a good opportunity to you know, interrogate whiteness and interrogate white women. And she very very clearly, and the movie seems to know like that she thinks that she is like the queen of wokeness and is doing the right thing at all points, when in fact, she can be extreme condescending. She'll shut

down conflict, she'll tell people how they feel. She's very entitled, like all this stuff that is like, you know, very worth exploring and then but then in other moments she would be a cartoon character, and then it's like, well, so what does she did, Like what are you trying

to say with her? Because no one like in some scenes it was like, oh, she's like, I mean, like whatever carening out before that was a popular term, and then in other scenes, you're like, nobody has acted like this in the history of the world, So like, what do you not say every time you have an orgasm? And then she like passed out like it was so when she starts to cry, that scene was bananas. I mean, it's like whatever, I'm absolutely flabbergasted by that sex scene.

All of the Adam Sandler reactions too, were like horrible, Like the whole movie, He's made those noises. It's like

he just can't believe it. That's but you know, Jamie're right, like this could have This movie could have been an interesting opportunity to examine and criticize what a lot of like rich white people do to marginalized communities, and especially someone that they kind of like Deborah clearly see like to her floor is like the help, you know, like she's like she's so condescending to her she never makes any effort to learn Spanish, like just it's this weird

power dynamic that could and should be examined and interrogated, and the movie, I think does try to do that to some extent, but where it lands, I'm just like, Okay,

what's the takeaway here? Exactly? Like Also, like one of the many dropped threads of this movie was also between like trying to contextualize who Debora is and why she is the way she is, which honestly I didn't think it was like completely necessary, but they try to be like, well, her mother, like she's the child of an alcoholic, and the movie tries to like contextualize her like hyper insecurity through that lens, which is like, okay, I see, like

I thought it was super under explored, and then it kind of ended in a joke or Cloris Leachman is like I see what you're saying, but like shut up,

and that was the end of like that. But also it seems to like conflate all this stuff, like she's like, yes, Deborah's character is very insecure, and it is she is like weaponizing that insecurity against everyone in her life, but like her being the child of an alcoholic is not making her racist like that, you know, like like deeply classist, and I feel like it's like conflating all of those

issues with like, well she's very insecure. You're like, well, there's a lot going on that's not right with Debra, Like I don't know, Yeah, I feel like if the movie could have been so much more about mothers and daughters.

It's like that's like my favorite part of it, I think, you know, between Flood and Christina and like and then also seeing like how the last generation is like dealing with all of their mothers shit, you know, right, that is a really good point that could have been the focus of the movie, where it's like you have these two sets of like mother daughter dynamics with Florida and Christina and what they are dealing with as they navigate the world, and then what are Debra and Bernie dealing

with as they navigate the world in there like much more privileged position, and like an exploration of those dynamics and how there are like similarities and differences between these two pairs of people and like what might that look

like and what could that mean? And there's a lot to explore there that could have been interesting and again I think that the movie tries to start exploring something, especially when it comes to this thing where Deborah is hounding her daughter to lose weight, which is terrible, a horrible thing for her to be doing. It's affecting Bernie very significantly. It's affecting her husband because her husband hates

to see her treat her daughter that way. But then that thread just kind of gets dropped and then there's not that just like isn't part of the movie after a while, so her daughter never gets to like heal from that or like instead, I mean Florida like makes her clothes bigger, and then that's I think supposed to be. It is like the lesson. They're like, okay, if you're if someone should be nice to you, Yeah, that takeaway

is confusing. And then a little I guess a little bit later, Deborah really takes an interest in Christina, and it almost and like sort of treating her as if like, oh, this is the daughter I wish I had, because she's like, you know, taking her shopping and taking her to get her hair done and like all this stuff that I think it's clear that Bernie would like to do with her mom. But because she doesn't like fit the image that Deborah has for what she wants her daughter to be.

She instead takes this interest in Christina, and it's just like that's like such a devastating thing for Bernie to have to deal with. And then that also just doesn't really get explored. She's like fucking everyone over in that scene.

That was like, I was like, wow, this character is playing like a game of for d chest of making everyone unhappy, because I mean, it's exciting for Christina in the moment, but also it's like Debor is just so deeply selfish and everything she's doing there, I feel like she she seems to like take this like real pleasure and exerting control, over flow and like over feeling entitled to her life in a way that the movie seems aware of. But it just yeah, like it doesn't really

land anywhere. They're just sort of like, yeah, this lady's fucked up, but like she like rejects her daughter, and so it's like painful for Bernie to see that. Christina isn't at a point at this point in the movie where she understands that this like rich lady is exerting her power over her for maybe not a completely altruistic reason obviously, and she's like just showing how she can control Flor's life again, Like that was so uh it bothered me so much, like Devra sucks so bad. She

sucks so bad. I wonder if like her redemption is supposed to be wrapped up and how at the end she just says, I'm so glad that you came back, like that's supposed to and it's like she's like giving giving something I don't know, like she's like doing something like not selfish for once, but like that's like the other thing too, is like the where I don't know, I guess I don't really want to talk about the white lotus, but but like I think that that's like

an interesting parallel to draw here of like I get like and it's kind of like a wash, but especially because James L. Brooks is a white guy trying to write a story about a marginalized character and about mother daughter relationships. You know, it's not against the law. It is certainly like we should like keep talking about it

because he misses some stuff. And I thought one of the bigger misses, outside of clearly having more interest in the white characters in his movie than the Mexican characters that he claims that the movie is about. He also seems to like let John off for it's like, oh, Debra is the dev all, She's the most evil person and like all the sins of richness and whiteness are characteristics that she exhibits. And then John's just kind of

like this amazing guy. It's like it's like, well that's not real, Like what, yeah, it's never examined to how like maybe his career like made Deborah feel insignificant, like because she keeps being like who am I? I don't know who I am? And he's like, I got too many stars on my my kitchen review, I'm too good of a cook. God would be the same. And he keeps like acting like he I don't know, Like as he and floors, connection is like deepening. He keeps kind

of being like, I'm sorry about Deborah. There's really I wish I could do something, And it's like, well, you probably could do something, like why don't you try to do I? Like it's like the Remolt. There are a few different scenes where it's like the movie is just like really trying to make him out to be this like sweetheart, romantic hero who like I don't I don't know, like yeah, and the John character is like I don't know.

There were some scenes where I was like, I see what they see in each other, but then another scenes I was like, he's creepy and he keeps trying to talk to her while he's really drunk, Like yuh yeah, I want to get into this, but let's take a quick break first and then we'll come right back and we're back. So yeah, the romance between Florida and John this movie, like Bushevy, tests itself interestingly enough because he looks like creepy? Uh do I want to rename it?

But it basically just like if you swap out the like a supposedly romantic behavior that like a traditionally hot guy is exhibiting in a movie, and you switch it out with Steve bush Emy, would it be creepy? And if it would be really creepy, then it fails the test and it's a creepy interaction. So yeah, Like, so a picture like The Notebook and instead of Ryan Gosling like stalking Rachel McAdams, if it's Steve bush Emmy, is it now much more clear that this behavior is extremely

creepy and stalkery. And if you clear, Steve Bishmmy is hot. But just in terms of like that's how we've characterized the test over the years. A listener had pitched, I think instead of Steve wish Emmy Gritty the mascot for that the Philadelphia is that the Philadelphia? Yeah, yeah, the gritty test. Like, yeah, if you just like switch out, that is maybe better because it's like, you know, Steve

Bishemy is hot. But yeah, this like until we come up for a with a better name for that test, this movie fails that and also like Out of Sailor like looks and behaves kind of creepy for the whole movie, so you don't even really need to like stretch your imagination. Yeah, I feel like John supposed to be bashful, but instead he's just like about to explode all the time, or he's just like is or is the same behavior as when you're like hiding a Boner's like I don't know,

he's just like he's not giving me stability. He's not He has so many weird outbursts that I think are supposed to be comedic, but I'm just like, again, the tone is so weird that I'm like, I was I supposed to laugh at that? I don't know, but she's like charmed. She's ching right, It's so confusing. Okay, So here, as far as what I could tell, here is kind of the trajectory of this romance between Floda and John. So it starts where John is giving her a ride

to the bus stop. He is crying because you saw how his wife had just treated their daughter about like you know, buying her those closer too small and be waiting for her for her weight, and it really affects John, and Florida is like impressed that he seems to be emotionally open and vulnerable. There's voiceover from Christina saying it's it's like the opposite of the like quote Latin macho that Florida is used to and that he seems to

quote have the emotions of a Mexican woman. Where obviously that framing is not great, but James L. Brooks wrote that down like yeah, he was like yes, cut and print. I like when he's wiping his tears away with the seat belt, that's funny. That was kind of funny. It's like their above is in this movie that are like and definitely the right kind of funny for the kind of movie. It was, yeah, at least yeah, closer than

the than the orgasm scene. True, So this didn't bother me because, well, aside from the way that some of this voiceover is written, but the fact that Florida is impressed and intrigued by John's emotional openness and vulnerability is like something that we should as a society value more in men, especially because men are so conditioned to be emotionally repressed and withdrawn and all this stuff. So that I was like, Okay, I understand that is a reason

why Florida would be interested. And also I thought that that even though it was like another threat that I felt like it was dropped, that felt like a really like setting something up for for Florida and Christina that

just kind of went away. But that opening scene where you find out that Florida is not very emotionally open and she's like pushing tears back at the Christina's a being, and like I thought, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, and like not even able to like show her emotional vulnerability in front of her daughter, She like runs out of the room if she starts to cry so that her daughter can't see her be emotional, and then at the end she cries finally she doesn't want to be

like her. I wish that there was like I just wish that we got to know more about Florida. I feel like that moment should have like I mean, it's still hit from me because I just have a lot of it, just like mommy, Like yeah, it's like that's the way that the love story worked for me. Was like, Oh, they see things. I mean like she sees an emotional vulnerability in him that she can't do herself, and I feel like that is very attractive sometimes where you're like,

oh my god, look at you expressing yourself. I can't do that. Imagine if I, yeah, give me a little kiss. Their main thing is like how they they like bond over how they want to be parents, I guess, And

also I guess that's how sometimes people get together. I don't know, they like love their kids and they hate Deborah and that's enough to build a relationship on right, Because there's that scene where they're on the beach and Florida confides in John because she's like, hey, it seems like your wife is kind of like meddling in my daughter's life. And he's like, yeah, I feel really weird about it too, And then she says something like I've never met a man who can put himself in my

place like you do. And I was a little unclear. I was like, does she mean like put But I think what she means is like put himself in her shoes and like empathize and understand where she's coming from, right, Okay? So I was like, Okay, that's also like a compelling reason to have an emotional connection that tracks for me. But then he also immediately after that, she's like standing in the on like the windy beach, and then he screams at her. He's like get out of the wind.

And it's like what is like? So there's weird stuff like that, And then to me, the kind of the final beat that makes us know like oh wow, like yep, they're falling in love is a scene that does not work for me. Where they're arguing. She's calling him out for giving her daughter that money without consulting her first, and he's like, well, you're a hypocrite because you meddled in my daughter's life by altering the jacket and she's like, Yep,

you're right. I'm a hypocrite. I also interfered there's no difference, Um, you're right, and he's like, I'm horny. What you're not arguing with me, you're telling me that I'm right. I like disagree with that. I do think it's different. Like I feel like there's there's like multiple points where they're like that completely ignores like the power dynamic that exists between the two of them, that like ignores the tent

behind what they were trying to do. It ignores like the like gravity of the task where it's like and like the gendered nature of the task, like yeah, sewing versus like he's like the man of the house who

provides for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I was like, I I appreciate about how Flora's character is written that she is very clear about what her values are, like she will not accept a violation of about well she does because she's repeatedly pressured to not quit the job, but she's willing to communicate like, hey, that wasn't okay with me, do not do that again, which is great, But then also yeah, and that scene knows like, oh,

don't give up that point it is different. It is different, yes, And then something very weird to me happens where when he takes her to his restaurant and he's saying, I love you, You're beautiful, let's kiss each other. They we should name Agender after you. She at that point does not know that Deborah was cheating on John, so as

far as she knows, their marriage is fine. And she's written to be the type of person who would not interfere in a marriage and like not be willing to kiss him or engage with him in any romantic way, because I mean, maybe I'm misreading her character. Again, we don't know that much about her, but I feel like, but we do know, she would be like, no, you're married, I'm not gonna engage with this. But instead she she kisses him, and then she's like they, you know, canoodle

all night, and then she says I love you. And it's like, first of all, I understand you like admiring him for a few different things he said and done over the movie, but like, you love this guy. Okay. It makes me so sad for her. I'm like, all these men in your life must suck, right, if this is the wather you're like, this is the most scene

I've ever felt. You're like, no, we gotta. But it didn't make any sense that she was engaging with this like romantic moment because again, she seems to me like the person type of person who would be like, no, you're married and I work for you. Also like this is inappropriate, like you're my employer, your wife is my employer, Like this is not appropriate, and instead she's like kiss, kiss, I love you. And then she's like I have to quit, right, and then like she has to give up her livelihood.

It's not fair, like yeah, like bay start, I feel like based on what we know about this character, like it's just I don't know. And then the way that it felt like every reference to Latin manhood and masculinity was so written by James L. Brooks. It really hated Latin men. Yeah, except for that goofy guy who was like all translate forever when he looks at her bullies. Yeah, I was like, was this a call back to the Selena movie where someone was like anything for Selena's It's

that It's really felt like that. Oh yeah it does kind of, yeah it does, right, But yeah, I felt like the James L. Brooks writing kept in moments where he couldn't think of a way to make John seemed like a viable romantic interest. There would just be a voice over line that was like punching down at Latin men and Latin masculinity to be like, so, of course it makes sense that you would want to date this guy. It's like it just wasn't right necessary additors, like it

just wasn't necessary. I'm nervous about how formative this movie was for the people I date. I'm like, I was like, yeah, damn, I just like listened to it. I only date like explosive, sensitive white men. It's a bad vibe, bad horrible vibes. James L. Brooks, What the hell James Brooks has to sent you a personalized college application of apology? That framing device of this movie, I mean, it does it does? It did make me cry. So there did cry. I

did cry. I'm I'm laughing. And here's why I'm laughing because Christina laughing like Teleoni happy an Orgasa. Yeah, we I'm laughing because like Christina's college admission essay as about this or which is her mother's affair, Mother's like the weird like this weird moment in her mother's life that like kind of doesn't really have anything to do with anything, Like it's just like I think it's a very like

how I Met your mother kind of framing device. We were like, no child would have this deep and interest in their parents sex lives. Gross. But who is she the Olsen twins trying to get her their dad to hook up with somebody fieldboard dad reference. I love it. Uh, this is a quick thing, but one that it was like I paused the movie and did some math, and it wasn't encouraging math. This scene where Deborah and Flora and um what is her cousin's name, Monica all meet

for the job interview. First of all, I think that I think that someone already said this, but like Monica should have just been a character in the movie like that we saw with regularity, like to give their lives like more shape and death ended. She was just I mean, like I really enjoyed the actress who played her, But that scene where Florida is negotiating a salary, I was trying to put myself in two thousand four brains and

it's still like not very helpful. Where you know, we were told that she and Christina need four fifty dollars a week to survive, which is what they're doing. And then when Deborah asks what do you want? And then kind of like Cheryl Sandberg's for a second, and it's like you gotta ask her what is worth but you can't ask for more than you're worth it then you're a bitch or like whatever. She said, like, yeah, you're taking advantage, right, So so she's like being Cheryl Sandberg.

And then I think it's Floorda who says a thousand dollars a week, which is like and then she's like that's a joke, just kidding, joke, Like it's the joke, but she's being asked to work a seventy two hour a week. That's like not unreasonable, Like it just if you break that down, because I I like went back and rewatched the scene and crunch some numbers where Tleoni was like, I need you to work six days a week, twelve hours a day. How much do you want per week?

One thousand dollars a week. What she ends up getting a six fifty a week, which that math boils down to about nine dollars an hour. So okay, wait, one thousand to find it by seventy two. That would be less than fourteen dollars an hour for one thousand dollars a week. So it's like this bizarro like joke that James Albrooks is making it Like how dare like Flora

asked for one thousand dollars a week? Is like still underneath it's and I know, like two thousand four many is is a little different for money, but like not

by much. And for a movie that's so invested in talking about class, it seems it's it seems really like I don't know, off, Yeah, why isn't that Also if she is working somewhere between like eight and twelve hours a day and it seems like Florida is there a lot because we only ever see her there really and never in her home with Christina, that also could be something you mind for tension and conflict, Like what is Florida working twelve hour days, six days a week? What

is that doing to her relationship with her daughter? Like she's hardly going to be home then for her? And like what does like can we explore that and like examine that? But the movie again doesn't really have any interest in in her interior life and the motivation for her to work one job is just because her she saw a boy like touch her daughter's ass, right, and then it was like, but you're not at home that much still, right, and you're community Like the commutes seemed

pretty severe back and forth. The commute seems awful. A mile to the bus stop. Why? And then I'm guessing, yeah, we don't ever learn what neighborhood Florida and Christina live in in l A. But it's probably pretty far from the very upscale neighborhood that the class keys live in. I thought it was like there, I mean, whatever, now

we're just getting into l A talk. But it's it seemed like they were either downtown or on the east Side, which yeah, and then like Adam Sandler and Taileani or like living out this fucking like Westwood Beverly Hills, like Beverly Hills something. As a metro user, that is an hour and a half commute if you're going clear across town like that. Anyways, Yeah, I didn't that didn't even really connect for me. I like, she's probably not getting

like that much more time with her daughter. I mean, I understand why she makes the decision she makes, but I just thought it was like, especially for like a male writer to make that decision. It just I didn't like quite get it. Yeah, that was bizarre, but whatever, that was just kind of like a weird writing choice

that I'm like, this guy is definitely a guy. Yeah, I could have gone it could have really done something special talking about like women's labor, you know, and like emotional labor between like what Clarence Leachman is doing at the end with Haley Oni and being like like, let me give this to you as as a mother, you know, and and didn't. Yeah, again, every thread just kind of is loose to begin with and then never ties up

in any way or gets fully explored. Still cried my eyes out, like yeah, that's it's like this James Alberg's was weird for this one. But I also do think that it's like he knows how to make people cry

a lot, very good at that. And it's also I mean, I don't know, like this is very clearly not his story to tell, and there was I guess I wasn't super surprised to see in two thousand four that there was absolutely no real pushback about the fact that he was doing this because I feel like it's a very like a very two thousand four but still like a

contemporary problem as well. Of but he could make a movie of this budget and scale that featured like an immigrant woman as a protagonist, but that it's like this monkey's post situation where it's like, but he can't do that, he can't execute that well based on who he is, and so it's like, I don't know, it's frustrating. Yeah, I want to talk about the casting of Passa Vega who plays Flooreda. She's from Spain. Interesting, so she's not from Mexico and she looks so much like Penelope Cruz.

She does look remarkably like Penelope Cruise yes, who is also from Spain. Um, so obviously there are a lot of Mexican people who are of white European descent. However, this movie seems to me to code floor as a brown person, a person of color, even though she is a white Spaniard European. So it's not a great casting choice to cast this white European actor code her as

a person of color. There are plenty of Mexican actors who could have been cast in this role and then would have been able to like bring like the experience of a Mexican person or a Mexican American immigrant to their role and like have that be a part of the the role in character. But that is not what happened in the casting. Yeah, I had no idea she was from Spain. Oh my god, I was duped. I feel like they she's like damn, I know, I didn't

learn that until this morning. Like yeah, I also think there's this like there's a really weird thing with like like her beauty in the movie, where like I mean, she's like so beautiful, but that's like her whole Like she's like beautiful in doing housework and she's like beautiful and being a mother, and like Adam Sandler seems to only like say that she is beautiful, and so does Deborah too, Like Depa is constantly commenting on her appearance

and Christina's in a way that almost feels fetishy to me, where they're like, look at this like exotic beauty that you are this family, Like yeah, very much exotifies if that's a word Florida and Christie, you know, especially there's that scene where Deborah is introducing Christina to the like the director of this private school. And then she has a little aside with this director who is a white woman, and says like oh yeah, like she's great, she's so smart,

she's so bright, and she's Hispanic. She like whispers in her ear as if like isn't she gorgeous? Hispanic? Right, and like look at the It's almost like, look at the diversity you would bring into the school, look at my little project. Like she's like very much, which at least the writing seems self aware of of, like Debora is not supposed to seem right for that, like she's

clearly wrong. And yeah, I mean especially I don't know, Devora is just so where like with Debra, it's again like a one two punch of racism and like exoticizing Christina and then also her like own internalized misogyny comes out in those moments too, because she can only understand women via commenting on and criticizing their appearance, which is like present in her how she relates to Florida and Christina, and also how she relates to her daughter like and herself,

like with the running and all like the obsessive like like maintenance of her body, which is like such a I don't know. I guess like I feel like I'll recommend it for the five million time on the on this show, but fearing the black body and like how American women, especially white American women, are like trained to be hyper vigilant towards their own bodies and punish other bodies that don't look like there isn't just all this

just shit that is so present in her character. It's just so I feel like voiceover Christina goes into that too and seems to like be aware of like this like sickness that American women have with like being thin. But I feel I feel like initially like I'm maybe giving the movie too much credit being look how where they are of like you know, what the what's wrong

with like white American woman? But I feel like making Tayley only like such a cartoon of like a Karen before that was a term like it is almost like racist, but not towards her, like towards flowed, because if it just makes flow to seem more amazing and like what is the word there's like a word for this where she's just like I don't know, she's just like infinitely better because of her quote unquote brownness and her like natural like this like natural nous that seems to be

like linked to her ethnicity. You know, yeah, that's yeah. I mean it's because I'm trying to remember the way that that line of voiceover plays out. But oh I wrote it all down, I trans correct ready, But I feel like, you know, what you're describing is like she just like like the movie starts to go somewhere with commenting on that hyper vigilance. Yeah, and then yeah it turns to it what's the line here? It is there was one particular cultural difference which I wish to explore

academically at Princeton because this is a support of her admissions. Essay. They had to remind you every once in a while, Um, American women, I believe, actually feel the same as Hispanic women about weight, a desire for the comfort of fullness. And when that desire is suppressed for style and deprivation allowed to rule dieting, exercising, American women become afraid of everything associated with being curvacious, such as wantonness, lustfulness, sex, food, motherhood,

all that is best in life. So which is just like James L. Brooks is and so it it does. I mean most I'm curious as to your thoughts too of it. Yeah, it to me came off as like just very over generalizing and very like, I don't know, like mothering. Yeah, I mean I think like the thing that this movie is like, I feel like James L. Brooks can like really like right his way out of anything. Like he's like seems like a very like beautiful like writer.

But that sentence, like that sentence is really beautiful and it doesn't make any sense, like is he saying like is he saying like like Mexican women also are like this or that they're not like this. I'm not right. It seems very reductive where he's just like womanhood equals

curvaceous equals motherhood equals awesome. It's like those womb equals eating Like yeah, life doesn't make a lot of sense, so I know, and you get like tricked listening to it because you're like, damn, like that's some bars there what he's saying, and you're like, wait, what what she's saying? I'm already like yeah, like could he tell us what

he's saying? Here? There was this is I guess just kind of because we have for some reason covered to James Brooks written directed movies on the show pretty recently, so to our listeners, we'll stop doing that. What else has he done? He did Broadcast News, which we covered with Dave Schilling, a movie I like a lot, but I felt like there was like I guess, just like

knowing his writing style. This has nothing to do with anything, but I was getting kind of like Holly Hunter neurotic woman, quote unquote, and which is how James Brooks rights women. I was getting Holly Hunter neurotic woman vibes from Deborah, but like written way more scattered and all over the place, because I feel like the Holly Hunter character and Broadcast News is like very nervous and just like kind of this vibrating nerve. But at least in that movie we

talked whatever. You can listen to the episode if you want, but like it at least mostly made sense and was contextualized. But for Deborah, it's like she's just all over the place, like you just don't know. James Brooks thinks women are

very neurotic. He does, and he's obsessed with the idea of a woman like going somewhere in private and bursting out into tears for a few moments and then coming back in the room because that is also what Holly Hunter does throughout the movie and what we see Florida do at the very beginning. Yeah. Wow, wow. The more we talked about, I mean, and again I guess this is this is just like women as James Brooks perceives them.

But I wish that that trait, that FLOORI has of compartmentalizing her feelings for the benefit of her daughter, Like I feel like that could have been a whole movie, Like getting back to what we're talking about, this movie could be about two very very different families of women and why they deal with their ship the way they deal with it, and like how and that would have

been cool. Yeah. Yeah, It feel like you don't get a lot of like protagonists who are women, which you could say Flora is or isn't, depending on you know, your read of the movie. I think she's supposed to be. But you don't like get a lot of protagonists who are like women who do not express every emotion they're having. Like it just feels like a more rare thing, which I don't know. I am a woman that does express

every emotion. I'm having so bad writing, but Florida is you know, I don't know what what I have a question. I have two questions. One where does the sun go? He's in the movie for like to see so random you get disappeared random. He just like keeps not being there when you would expect a young nine year old kid to be at home. That story actually that storyline got cut. He was abducted in the middle of a movie.

But they're just like, like, we've too much, too many characters. Yeah, it doesn't like James Brooks realized in the middle of the movie that there were way too many characters. He's like, they're not going to notice. Well, I noticed. Second question, what is going on with the whole like Chum the dog and the fetch thing. I thought that was going to like pay off in some way or that was going to be a thing. But that's just like a weird detail that gets introduced and then like they do

nothing with. I thought that that was just a really heavy handed way of saying that Florida is not like other girls. She throws the ball, yeah, or she's like more in touch with like nature and like nurturing, you know, yeah, like could be like Disney princes can like speak to animals. I guess I do see it being like that, which is like, what the hell? First of all, why do you feel the need to say that? It's like, what

a weird way to say it. Also, there's a scene where Florida is at the classkey house in theory, working, but she's putting together a puzzle. Did anyone notice this? She's putting a jigsaw puzzle together? And it's like they're just like, look busy, right, yeah, can't you? Can't you send her home so if she can spend time with her daughter, Like what the what are you making her put a puzzle together for her? Like? What the fuck? Anyway, I hate this movie. That's Debora. That's Devora being a

control free. Another thing that I thought was like at least like it knew what it was doing a little more than other scenes was that scene that it's just like excruciating to watch. It's when Deborah is trying to convince Floor that she needs to come on the summer

trip and she can't communicate with Floor. She says like, you still haven't learned English, and then she's like I have to learn how to say that in Spanish, being like ha ha, I refuse to learn Spanish and that's funny, and then you know, like grabs the nearest Spanish speaker and it was like translate for me right now, so I can tell Florida what to do, and like just the way that she I mean had a lot of talk about how shitty, but like this scene I just

hated her so much, where Florida is setting a boundary. She's like, no, I can't do that, like I have a daughter, and Deborah is like hurt that she didn't know that Florida had a daughter, even though it's like you never made any effort to like try to actually communicate with her about anything. Did you ever ask her

about her family? And also and then Cloris Leachman kind of like low key comes to the rescue and it's like, well, if she didn't tell you that, she's probably really private and like I'll drive her home and like kind of was like, which, I mean, she probably shouldn't. She drinks, she probably can't drive. But then it's like, I hope

this was intentional. I think it was where Deborah like is so insulted that Florida is like talking to her like she's an employer and not a friend, because that is their relationship that Deborah is like, well, now I need to punish you, and you have to come live with me, and you have to like be close to me, and I have to have access to all areas of your life. Creepy her, just creepy, Debora tentacles. I know, a true villain, the true villain of the movie. But

John's an amazing guy. Why does he like her? And then she's like, I don't want to think that you're out of your mind for being in love with me,

But it's like he is. Yeah, there's another quick moment that I feel like again, the movie starts to set up a thing that could have been explored and interesting commentary could have been made about it, where Deborah and John are like not on the same page ever with their parenting tactics, and this is something that Debora keeps like hounding John about, like need to be on the

same page. And we as the audience, are meant to identify with John and his approach because again, Deborah, because she's a woman written by James L. Brooks, is written to be quote unquote hysterical. So but she says, you told our son that you're not mad at him, and I am mad at him for something that we don't know what the son did that never even becomes clear. We have no idea. But then he got kidnapped and that he's abducted, and then we never hear from him again.

But she's calling out her husband for making her seem like the bad guy because she's taking one approach, and he seems like the good guy because he's not mad

at their son. And like, that's often a dynamic that plays out in hetero marriages with children, where like, you know, we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, where you know, women, because they're conditioned to be the kind of more disciplinary just like more active and present parent, they often have to do the more kind of disciplinary stuff, whereas dads are sort of expected to be more Oh, I'm the I'm the goof, I'm the like we throw balls around and we play catch and do fun stuff.

And but again that's just referenced in one scene, and it just feel like the movie falls on the side of like Debrah is being hysterical for bringing it up, where like Debra is wrong for bringing most things up. But that thing wasn't a thing that felt like it was almost like the way that the performance was we have no context, right, Yeah, yeah, that's the this movie in a nutshell to me, like threads or like little seeds get planted that could have been interesting things to explore,

but the execution on nearly everything is completely ineffective. Yeah, and maybe just says more about like us and our family. I'm just like, I think I love the movie because I love my family, and I'm like, whoa, um, sure, and that's fair, Yeah that makes sense. But I also like, I don't know, there's like I wish that we got

to spend more time with Christina as well. That was one of my big things where Christina doesn't become an important part of the movie until like maybe almost halfway through, like not until the Summer Trip do we really see her. We don't know what she's up to, because this movie is so like preoccupied with spending time with this rich white family and how Florida is interacting with them that we don't see. We hear Christina all the time, but we don't see her for like twenty minutes at one point.

And again it's like I don't know, Like it's she's such a rich character who's so relatable to so many people. I mean, like Melissa, you were saying, like she reminded you of your sister in some ways, And it just seems like a lost opportunity to show and also a lost opportunity to give Flora's character more depth because we could see, you know, who is Christina with when Florida has to be at work all the time, Like, how does she relate to Monica, how does she relate to

the family, Like what what's going on with Christina? And we don't We only like the movie only becomes interested in what is going on in her life once she like enters the assimilation zone, and the movie does seem to be like ultimately like this assimilation is like not a positive thing for her, but it doesn't show you I don't know. Yeah, the takeaway again, I'm just like, you tried, movie, but you didn't really cross the finish line.

Shout out though to Shelby Bruce, who plays Christina, who gave I think an incredib bold performance, especially during that scene where she is translating for her mom with the whole seed glass thing and she's like really like communicating her mom's like intent and but like she's having to talk about herself, but because the conversation is about her, but she's like having to refer to herself and like the third person because of the translation. It's really like

it's I just like the rhythm of that scene. That was probably my favorite, the only scene I enjoyed in the movie, to be Frank, because of her like incredible performance. She's so good and when she's like publicly scorning her mom, I have like a visceral reaction to that, like I'm so embarrassed. Yeah, like I'll never forgive you for the Yeah, she's having a Debora tantrum, She's going Deborah, She's turning Deborah.

That scene, I thought, Yeah, that scene was really really like well executed and and She'll be Bruce is the best part of it where I don't know, I mean, I have never been in a position where I had to translate between people, much less my own family, So it's not something that I personally understand, but it just it's I felt like the scene did get across what a stressful and kind of unfair experience that is for Christina to have to mediate a discussion about herself that

she doesn't have any saying like there was no opportunity in that argument for Christina to say how she was feeling, because the task at hand was to communicate how her mother was feeling and then communicate back how Adam Sandler was receiving it. And it's just like, ah, well, someone asked Christina what is on her mind? Like she's doing a lot of heavy lifting here for this weird romance, right, but that scene, Yeah, that seems very well acted. I was going that I hope that she just like didn't

feel like acting anymore. But she's she's not acting anymore. Really. Yeah, but she did sign a deal with Claire's Boutique to have her own jewelry line, which launched in September two

thousand six. Oh, she's still living off of that. Something I realized is that, for again, a movie that is supposed to be focusing on this protagonist who is an immigrant from Mexico, we learn nothing about Mexican culture, even though it's clear that the character like her heritage is very important to her, and that there's like voice over in the beginning that says, like, my mother kept me in Mexico for as long as possible to like connect

me with my Latin roots. And then when they moved to the US, they moved to a neighborhood of Los Angeles that seems to be predominantly other Mexican immigrants living in that neighborhood. And again she keeps speaking the language. She it takes her years to start to even be motivated to learn English. So there's like all these these indicators that her Mexican heritage is very important to floor, and yet the movie doesn't tell the audience anything about

the culture. And I think it's just because like it doesn't doesn't care. Yeah, I mean it did. Seems like Melissa, you said this earlier, where it's like the most you see of the culture that we're told repeatedly is so important to Florida is a cutaway to a party with characters we don't know eating tamales, and like that is all he was able to do. It seems like there wasn't even like Google involved. I don't know, Like, yeah, it's just like seconds. It's like there's not enough time

in this two hour movie. We have to have a whole subplot with this review of his restaurant, which is Geez,

the restaurant you could cut out the restaurant. It's so bizarre, but I don't hate it, but it's like whatever, like that that time could be better used for so many things, And it's like that in particular, it is like James L. Brooks could have gotten this movie made and done the bare minimum of like hiring a co writer who was Mexican, like collaborating instead of being like a James L. Brooks film about something that I'm saying it's about but actually

it isn't. Like that's not too much to ask because I was really curious about like because it seems like and I don't want to give him too much credit. I'm trying to be careful, Like it does seem like James L. Brooks, even when like when he misses the mark a lot, but it doesn't seem like it's ever coming from a place of cruelty. It seems like it's usually from a place of ignorance and kind of like

thinking he knows more than he actually does. Yeah, and like kind of like Hubris of like, well, it's a James L. Brooks movie. I can't collaborate with a second person, you know, who knows what they're talking about and can write like so James L. Brooks did not do much press for this movie, but I was looking for an interview just to be like, what was his research process? Was there a research process? What work went into writing

this script? Because it's so all over the place. And he says that he did which and this kind of made me laugh. He said that he did research for this movie for a year a year, Like what does that mean? He Okay, so he like live in l A. It's like that exactly. So did he just like exploit the labor of a Mexican immigrant as his housekeeper for a year like that? So what he did? I'll read it to you. It's a very it's a roller coaster of a quote, so I'll just read it to you.

This is an interview he did when the movie came out into as it for person asks how much research do you do for a character? James Brooks says, enormous, enormous, enormous, sitting around table, sitting at my home, gathering women, hearing great lines, seeing women with their children, having the kids translate, talking to them about that experience that was just an accident when the kids were there with their mother one day and that led to being the most important part

of the story. Maybe hundreds of women, notebooks filled with transcripts, almost of them in Spanish, which I don't speak, with

somebody translating for me. And the nights when you get loose, the nights, when you do it at night and you're just sitting around and it goes on and just when it stops being formal, and some of the best of it is you're sitting back, like at this certain point instead of asking questions, and they're just talking to each other and somebody's just telling you what they're saying, and it's great. There was a nineteen year old mother of a two year old I met, and she said this

extraordinary thing. I had the line in the movie, and I had to cut it out because I didn't shoot the scene. But she said that she well, she was a very attractive woman, and she said the next time she had a man who was viable at all, that she'd instead of dating him and finding out these facts about him, she'd want to take him to the park with her kids, see him interact with her kid, and make her decision on the guy based only on that. And that became the heartbeat that I kept on talking

to within the movie. The quote goes on, I find this so weird and confusing, where he just makes it sound like he was inviting women to his house and write like it just sounds at night. I have so many questions, like he should have just gotten like a co writer, or like just funded this movie and not

made it himself. Like, oh my god. That yeah, So that was that was his research process, was women coming over his house and then him hiring a translator to write down what they said and then putting that in the movie, which is also like exploitative in itself, like deeply exploitative, and like were the people he was talking to compensated where they credited? I'm assuming not. Who is the nineteen year old mom who said something that inspired the whole movie? Yeah? What the FuG? Yeah? So I

got my answer, but it was very upsetting. So that's unfortunate. Look into what he meant by the term research. What he thinks is research, which is just exploiting women that he encourages to come to his house. Just hire a co writer. What the fuck are you doing? Man? Horrible? Yeah, so sorry sorry for bringing the vibe down with that, but I just was like, damn, no, my my world has been rock. No one's read that interview in seventeen years, and I feel like me to unearth it. Does anyone

have anything they'd like to talk about? I think I don't think so. Yeah. Well, Um, does the movie pass the Bechel test? Yeah? It does? Right, Yeah, I think a lot of like like less so as the movie goes on. But at the beginning it passes a lot, right because the focus. I mean there are and there are different combinations where of course Florida and Christina, Christina

and Debora, Debora and Bernice. You know, there's different combinations Laman and various characters, right right, right right, But yeah, you're right. As the movie goes on and the focus becomes about again a romance that I could not be less compelled by. Yeah, that these other kind of interactions drop off a bit, but yeah, it does. It does pass. Um. Women are interacting quite a bit, and often about the very mundane things that this movie is about. I've never

sea glass. Why is there a twenty minute segment about finding sea glass in the sand? It's a medical It's it's like so mundane that it sounds like James el Brooks had done it himself. Like it's too specific, right, very very weird, confusing, and yet I feel like it's like, I don't know, I would I would definitely categorize this movie under the very overused term problematic fave, problematic fave. For me, it's a problematic least fase. Yeah, he's edgy,

that's Kitla. That's the kind of edgy content you can expect on this show. Yeah, we're like, I did not like it, um the Yeah, this movie. It's just like I want James L. Brooks to answer for his research process. Yeah, as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples.

Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I feel like I and I I hated the movie so much that this might cloud my judgment, But I feel like I would still only give it like maybe a one and a half nipples, because again, it does attempt to make some commentary. And then, like you said, the intentions never seemed to be malicious or like a deliberate punching down the way a lot of comedies, although I would not classify this movie as a comedy except

for that one scene. Except for the week I had an orgasa there he goes, this lady had two babies and she's still keeping it tight. I'm like, what the fun is going? Oh my god, and I'm something's just like sleep the whole He's asleep and away, which honestly, there's worst ways to be. Yeah, so I think there's an effort made, but it's just that that effort was not not good. It was not executed well, and just between a lot of like threads that get dropped and

some weird coding and casting stuff. The class commentary is a bit more effective for me, but again, the movie is so scattered and choppy narratively that I don't know what the takeaway is and it's just a big old

mess for me. UM. I do appreciate and completely see how families and an individuals UM could see themselves represented in a movie like especially because so few movies, especially ones that are like mainstream theatrical releases, and not many of them, deal with the experience of an immigrant family. I would argue that this one barely explores that because so much of the focus is still on the classkey

drama that's going on. But I still understand that there is some degree of representation that people can see themselves in. So I don't want to like diminish that or take that away from anyone. But luckily it's not two thousand four anymore, and representation in that regard has been getting slightly better in the years scenes. So I'm only going to give it one and a half nipples, and I will give one to Christina and I will give my

half nipple to floor. I feel like being overly nostalgic by but like to like I want to go to you know, I think that this like movie is very much what is wrong with It is very glaringly wrong.

And the more you learn about the production, the it becomes why it's coming off the way it's coming off, and like what like I do agree that it's like James Brooks wasn't approaching this material with malicious intent, but it was like it's clear that he's most interested in the Adam Sandler character, in which case, like right, it like that's a different movie, make a different movie, or again, like hire a co writer who is interested in who

you're claiming is your protagonist, because he just like seems interested in you know again, I mean I can't really speak to his intent because he didn't do any interviews about this movie except the one weird one, but like weird that it does seem like he takes steps to other floor in any ways and ways that I think he views this very complimentary and like, no, I'm not uthering her. I'm saying that she's absolutely perfect and the

ultimate mommy. And it's like, well, that's other here, you know, Like he's just like you were saying, Caitlin, like and and like you were speaking about your own experience, Wilissa. It's like this this movie connected for reasons that are related to writing and for reasons that are related to

lack of options of like in two thousand four. Yeah, like it just know, the only way to make a widely distributed movie about the story of two Mexican immigrant women was to have a white guy who knew nothing of that experience and didn't take many steps to include or involve. You know, it doesn't even speak Spanish. Like he didn't admit like I don't know what they were saying, I don't speak Spanish. It's like, why would you make a movie about that? Then? Right, well he makes it.

He makes a creepy comment about how pass Vega didn't speak much English, and he didn't speak much Spanish, and I think he's trying to like draw this parallel that's like, honey, no, that's not what was going on. He Adam Sandler. I think he's Adam Sandler and she's the character she was

playing well. But but yeah, I mean it's just like it's so two thousand and four and its flaws, but I think that there are, like there are strong threads and relationships that, like you see parts of that seemed very promising, and that just he just can't follow through on. Like Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy is just not the guy to make this story. But he did his he did his best, and it was it was okay for two thousand and four.

So I'll give it to nipples and give one to Christina, and I will give one to Monica because I wanted her in the movie. More cousin Monica. Maybe it was funny justice for Monica. She had she like got her nose broken, she had good side eyes at at Deborah. I'm gonna give this movie two and a half nipples. It was going to be three nipples. And then the James L. Brooks um research that you've told me, about really took half a nipple away, UM so horrible. I

really hate I really hate that. I think I still, yeah, I'm still still like sentimentally attached to this movie, but it's just because of like who I am. And yeah, it's so it's so fun to talk about too, because there's so much going on there that is a rye and I yeah, I could. I feel like I could talk about it for like maybe another half hour, but I know there's like stuff I feel like we missed, but I'm just like I'm tired. I'm tired. I have

to go to bed. I know I'm gonna give of one nipple to Klarrences Leachman through the whole movie because she's so funny and weird and I love I just love a drunk old woman and I love that her purpose is just like being this like dried out like jazz singer who is just like drinking by noon and just like being funny. I love her. And I'll give another nipple to the Christina translating for her mother scene

because it is it's pretty classic. And I like that he's trying to eat the sandwich the whole time and he can't and then have a nipple to the final scene of the movie that just always gets to me, even I I screencapped it while I was watching it, where she says, um, the only thing that will define me is being my mother's daughter. That really got to me. James L. Brooks, I don't know you. I think that was really formative to me too. I've like, that's like

in my my poetry somewhere probably plagiarized. Um, but I mean he probably plagiarized it from the women that he invited over to his house. Dang. Yeah, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Yeah, but that's just happening. Also. Yeah, well, Melissa, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. This is so fun. It was fun to hang out. Thanks for bringing us this movie. Uh, that is such a I mean truly, it's just like, let people make

their own movies, James. Don't let James L. Brooks do it. Look, what would happen? Tell us more about your book and where people can buy it and check out your other stuff and follow you on social media and all that kind of stuff. Um, you can follow me on social media at e L l oh Melissa, that's my handle

everywhere I'm on the internet way too much. And my book, like I said, it's a novel in verse about bringing Sleana back to life through sance, and it's all about identity and love and loneliness in a way that maybe um was you know a tiny bits of spanglisher in there. Um identicate a book to Jameson Brooks. Um and anyway, No, no, he's an icon. I get it right. It's like I only wrote my everything I do is because of Jimmy Brooks. Um. So yeah, my book is out. You can get it

wherever books are being sold. Um. It would be great if you didn't get it on Amazon and got it on bookshop dot org. They support indie bookstores. Um. Or you could call up your local indie bookstore and buy it there. I would love if you read my book. Yeah, that's it. Thank you, Yeah, I love you. Thank you for doing this show again so much. I love Thanks for having me on. I love it. You can follow us on social media on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast.

You can go to patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and subscribe to our Matreon, which is five dollars a month. You get to bonus episodes every month, plus access to the very large back catalog. You can get our merch at public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. If that's you know what you feel like day, and if you don't, it's none of our business. Live your life, that's true. Audios