Shrek the Third

we're in high spirits, and we're covering Shrek three. I feel like we like to bring in the new year, you know, just kind of like on a good on a good vibe. We want to give people something that they're like familiar with, something that makes them smile, but also something that makes them think exactly. We want to set a precedent, and what better way to set a precedent for than with Shrek the Third. Yeah, this is a very cerebral podcast, and you can tell because of

our s tier movie selection. I was being driven home by a friend last night because I don't have a driver's license, and I was thank you so much. I was mortified at how many times in the space of one conversation I said, well, that would require reading a book and I'm just not going to do that. Um, we famously don't read books, so we don't read books. But this is ultimately an intellectual endeavor and we're trying to change hearts and minds. Um, Happy New Year, h

n y as it were? Oh my gosh, yeah, Um ditto, right back at you. Cute. Okay, we're using phrases this year. I don't know what I'm trying to say. Welcome to the Betel Cast. My name is Jamie Loft Tech, my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist end, using the Becktel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate

a much larger conversation about representation and such. Of Justin Timberlake in animation, God, I feel like this was the justin Timberlake stunt casting era, and he really was giving it a hard in this movie. He is stinky, stinky, stinky. And that's an example of a conversation that would not pass the Becktel test. Can I tell you what it is? Please do. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist

Alice and Bechtels, sometimes called the becktel Wallace test. Originally, it was created as a one off, jokey kind of metric in her iconic comic Wow Okay, her iconic comics comic Maybe Tania I Frankenstein I Robot, And now the juices are kind of flowing right okay, okay, am I awake. It started as a bit uh in in her iconic comic Dikes to Watch out for highly recommended, but it's since become a kind of commonly accepted metric. Uh. There's

a lot of different versions of it. The one we use requires that there are two characters with names of a marginalized gender that speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue, ideally an impactful few lines of dialogue. This movie, I was frustrated with how they did it, but they did. They did do it. It was mostly women negging each other at a baby shower, but they did technically do it, and then each other in a dark corridor, which is

actually where I would feel more at home. Is good. I'm no stranger to getting negged in a dark corridor. You do stand up long enough that will happen? Do you actually? Kind of like on a constant basis, and it maybe happened to me yesterday. Oh no, last night I failed to win a dollar gift card to Red Robin. Oh my gosh, I had a stand up comedy show. I'm so sorry. You have what it took? You know who won? Who? The pianist? None of the stand ups one?

What not fair? Yeah, the crowd really liked the pianist and well, um, not to completely blow up your spot, Jamie, but yes, someone was gifted a little something from a certain other someone. Are you shouting out your Christmas gift to me? Yeah? Because plugging your gif. I'm plugging the Olive Garden gift card that I bestowed upon you. It's true for xmus it's true and we and I'm going to use it on you with you. I cannot wait. Oh my god, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. Thing, I'm crying.

I'm ready to discuss Shrek the third, Shrek rate Okay, what's your history? Sorry, Shrek the third, Shrek the third, get it right? And that was fine? It was funked up with me. I'm sorry. I mean Shrek the third, What can I say? I mean they if you if this is the first episode. You're listening two of this show. That's very funny. I guess you know. I would say I am a Shrek head. I think I would have

seen this in theaters. I think this would have been I didn't start seeing the Shrek movies in theaters until it was like as a joke. If I remember correctly, I would have seen the first two on like home video under dress with some cousins, I think, And then you know, this one I would have maybe seen in theaters. The fourth one I strongly remember seeing in theaters because I believe that I let my high school boyfriend finger

me at the fourth one. Um, but that was in two thousand and ten and I was not quite an adult. I was still a child getting fingered at the movies. But uh, well it was by another child, so it's okay, Am I awake? UM, I would have seen this in theaters. I will say that this is my least favorite Shrek. I am a I feel intimately linked with this franchise for many years now. UM, I've given my body too. It's also cannon to the show we are. The Bechtel

cast is synonymous with Shrek. It's there's no way around it. It's true. The first time I went viral and my whole life was Shrek related, like it's all connected. I went to Actually I was thinking about this because I went back and looked at some of my notes because at the end of I was really depressed. And you will understand why I did this when I tell you I was very depressed. I went to a ten hour long zoom in conference on Shrek and there were a

lot of different speakers. There was a lot there was actually kind of like a lot of good ship, not to you know, send you into a panic, but I learned a lot. And Shrek three not a heavily discussed shruck because I feel like it wasn't well reviewed and it isn't very beloved in spite of almost making a billion dollars but eight d and thirteen million at the

box office kind of absurd. But there was talk of, like, you know, a lot of feminist discussion about Fiona and Shrek three does come up quite a bit because of how she is, um she is mommy in this one. She's mommy fied, she's mommy pilled, and yeah, it's just like it's honestly in my least favorite Trek I feel like all the characters are underused, and I feel like, at this point in I'll say the franchise, we're like running out of things for Shrek to be bad at.

And yeah, this one feels a little, a little forced. Oh, I totally agree. All of the conflict in this movie is very contrived and it's so bizarre to me, like how far this movie, like the gymnastics it has to do to make it about fathers and sons when it just like did not have to be about fathers and sons. They make a whole new character so that the movie can be about fathers and sons. When at the beginning

Fiona loses her father, there's the conflict. There's the thing, why are we creating and why are we making some like justin Timberlake character with Banks to have this plot rewriting the Arthur legend. It's like, I'm sorry, he becomes king, not because Shrek is like you should be king. He famously pulls a sword out of a stone. No sword, no stone, but pro of this movie, Donkey has a son named Bananas, which and I liked that ties the minions into I did like, yes, exactly, Egg you man,

we really are close friends. So I was like, wow, there is a shipwreck. So I was like, okay, Titanic is here and I was like hey, donkey Son's name bananas and like okay, and so there, so the minions are here. Um, but ultimately, yeah, this is this is a challenging entry. But you know, I think that it's it would be silly to cover Shrek four with without kind of muscling through Shrek three. That's true. Went your

history with this movie? I had only seen it once before, and I could not tell you when it was sometime between two thousand seven when this movie came out, and I would guess like I probably saw it around when it came out, maybe like or it could have been like two thousand fifteen. I don't know. Time is a very much a flat circle. Did you like it when you Did you like it when you saw it? I don't think so because I never returned to it after that. But you know what I will return to is Puss

in Boots the Last Wish, which I saw. It is so good. It's like my third favorite movie. Yeah, I know that people are really loving Yeah, we I guess, um, I don't know why I'm I feel constantly defensive for no reason. Um it has something to do with my childhood. But um, we were supposed to see Puss and Boots together on Christmas Day and I both recently had COVID. So if you hate this episode, it's because we literally

have brain damage, we post COVID brain fog. And yes, that's gonna be my excuse for everything moving forward in life. And the scary part is you may not even be wrong. I know, and that's been on my mind constantly. Anyways, Shrek three, sorry s also, my aunt died, but it's my condolences. The beginning of Shrek three reminded me because I'm the protagonist of the world. The beginning of Shrek three reminded me of my birthday party at medieval times.

I had the same exact thought. Yes, I was thinking about Red Knight vibes. Yeah, folks were friends. Uh, I was thinking about the Red Knight. But I was like, wow, Prince Charming can't hold a candle to the Red Knight. I do like that, Like I do. I think it's like a trope, but a trope that I generally like. An aggrieved actor becoming a villain kind of never gets old. For me. I enjoy it, but I just don't like Charming as a character Paddington too much. Hello Hello, kind

of the peak of that trope. Yeah, nothing's done it better than Paddington too. I didn't I should have thought of Paddington too, but that is I guess that's technically your department at the office. Thank you, the Bechtel cast office and the the director of the Paddington to department I thought of. I thought of the villain origin stories.

At the opening scene where Prince Charming is working in a medieval times z restaurant, it's clear that they're pulling from that, and you know, he's like, I'm too good for this ship. I don't you don't appreciate me. Blah blah blah. Things that reminded me of Donald Trump at the White House Correspondence dinner, being made fun of and then deciding to ruin the world. Reminded me of that. Not that I mean not I and I don't like to make a Trump joke, because good lord, but it

also kind of reminded me of the Joker. And it definitely reminded me of that episode of SpongeBob SquarePants. I watched it just the other day where SpongeBob or the Krusty Krab is putting on a talent show. Have you seen this one? I'm so sorry to say this, but I've never seen a single episode of SpongeBob SquarePants. I I know it took a second to hit me, but like not even one, really sorry, like not even bubbles or jelly fishing or I don't the one where they

play the halftime show at the football game. No, not even the Krusty Crab training video. This this but I do remember. This is a lot I know that. Okay, okay, yes, no go. There's an episode where you, I frea something else reminded you of an episode of SpongeBob square Pants, and I just think remember you saying something like, it's like when maybe squid Word eats a crabby patty and then he eats a hundred crabby patties. Yes, that's a classic episode. I don't know what it means, but it is.

I need to rewatch that. I think that there's maybe a bit of fat phobia in that episode. But the the line is squid Word can't stop eating crabby patties, compulsively eating the crappy patties and SpongeBob's on the other side of the door. He's like, you have to stop eating the crabby patties, and Squidbver says, what am I

going to do? Blow up? And then SpongeBob says, no, it'll go straight to your thighs, and then they have indep gun straight to his eyes and then he says, and then you'll blow up, And then squid Red bloss up the best shover and that's comedy. That was not the episode I was thinking of. SpongeBob heads will know this one. It's a classic. I made someone watch it with me after I had sex with them, which was very powerful of me to do. Yeah, yeah, it was,

but the sex was reminded me. It was not reminded me of that, but it was just on my mind. It's an episode where the Krusty Crab is putting on a talent show and squid Word he wants to be a respected artist. That's kind of a big part of his character, and so he's like, I'm gonna do a huge dance routine and everyone hates it. They think he's terrible, and then SpongeBob comes up and mops a little bit

and people start cheering. But it reminded me of that because squid Word regularly feels so artistically rejected that he seems like he may in fact kill someone. And he runs out on stage on this one and he says, you don't even no talent, and then the audience starts yelling back at him, no talent, no tell do you get it? I get it. It's very names, but I understand. The person I had s swith also wasn't cracking up at that, and I thought that was interesting, and then

I kicked him out of my house. Um, well should we be? I truly feel like I've entered a new area of my brain today. I am now just constantly in an altered state of reality. Well we don't use what is it like, we don't use our brains, But today that changes. Yeah, I am now able to access the other of my brain. That was a Scarlett Johanson movie once. Yeah, Lucy, she's I think when Yeah, alright, chruck three, let's do it. Here we go. Actually, let's take a quick break and then we will come back

for the recap and we are back. Okay. We open on Gingi Pinocchio and then also it's Pinocchio War's time, and I was triggered when I saw Pinocchio. I was like, he had another Pinocchio. Well, okay, so this is not a spoiler or anything, but in Puss and Boots the Last Wish, Pinocchio makes a little cameo. So there are three Pinocchio movies in well, there's there's four, because there's

like the Crummy, there's a there's a fourth one. Maggie Maykors sent it to me, and it's it's not like the animation you find at the gas station, but it looks like the animation you find at the gas station. Not a theatrically released Pinocchio, but a really cheap so it's like the Legend of Titanic version of Pinocchio. Yeah, except it came out last year, which is kind of wild. I'm clear who it's for, no idea. Um, okay, So we've got Gingi, Pinocchio, the Big Bed Wolf, and the

Three Little Pigs. They are watching Prince Charming do Dinner theater because he's a loser now and his life is in shambles, and he is bitter because he thinks that he's the rightful King of Far Far away. But guess who is king or at least filling in for king while the real king is sick. It's Shrek. Oh, and I bet he's going to be a little awkward, random, and uh, not quite at home being the king. Yeah, you would be correct. Yeah, So he and Fiona are sort of like stepping in as king and queen for

the time being. Donkey and Puss and Boots are obviously around, they are still the sidekicks. And like you said, Shrek is bad at being king. And he's like, Fiona, we are leaving and going back to the swamp, and she's like, yeah, and maybe when we're there we could start a family. And Shrek is not thrilled by this idea because of trumps. Yes. And then the king is on his deathbed and he's like, Shrek, you're next in line to be king, and Shrek is

like an ogre king. That sounds like a bad idea, and the king is like, well there is one other option, cousin Arthur. Okay, bye bye, and then he dies. That scene is so frustrating to me because Fiona is standing right there. We spend so much of Shrek three acting like Shrek to literally never happy because Shrek two is a lot of like Fiona coming into her own as a person and like figuring out her role in this.

Also it's like, this is a very pro monarchy. If we can't deal with it today, we can't deal with it today. I understand it's very pro monarchy and more pro monarchy as as it goes on. And it's like, I'm just I'm assuming that they're colonial. You know, they tried to colonize Shrek Swamp. Hello the plot of Shrek one,

we know what, we love it. I don't think that we had the cultural know how at the time to say that in our first episode about Trek, but I do think that there are like actively truly serious brain returning to the brain. I no, um, they're a colonial force. It's a monarchy. But if we're going with girl Boss logic of like girl is king is good whatever, Fiona is right fucking there. We've spent so much of Shrek two of her coming into her own and then the

third movie acts like nothing happened. Nothing happened, because I did think that, Like I was like, I wonder if her father will even suggest that she could be you know, in power as a joke. I wonder if she will say what about me as a joke, But it doesn't even it doesn't even come up. It's we have a new character, we hired justin Timberlake to do it, and why and and why? But yeah, that's that's what happens. And then he dies. Oh the king dies, Yes, as a frog. He's a frog. He's in his frog state.

Sees Trek two for why that is we've got brain fog. The king has brain frog and then he doesn't because he dies and then he's brain his brain is dead. Okay. Meanwhile, meanwhile, Charming goes into a tavern where a bunch of Fairy Hill villains are hanging out, and I do not appreciate the implication that only villains would hang out at a pub, or like that a pub or tavern would be full of only villains and no one else as a frequenter

of pubs dark corridors exactly. Yet another way that this movie kind of like feels like it's contradicting prior entries to the franchise is that like Charming. Okay, well, let's let's say what Charming is doing. He's trying to like

galvanize the villains. Yeah, he's like, hey hook, Hey evil Queen from snow White, Hey rumpel Stiltskin, join me in this cause of kind of reclaiming our own narratives, and it's our turn to get happily ever after, which I feel like it's not anywhere close to like one for one, what's happening in Shrek one, but the theme is similar of like these like classically villainized characters are trying to like prove that there's more to them than how they've

been classically characterized. That is literally Shrek's arc all the time in every fucking movie, but this time it's bad, and you're like, well, what I would say that this movie, Shrek the Third is not particularly shreky in And I can't believe it took us over twenty minutes to say Shrek I in in this episode about a Shrek movie merch plug, We've got Shreky and March. I'm looking at my Shrek pillow, my shreky and pillow. I have my shreky and sweatshirt not on because it's in the wash

because I can't stop wearing it. And that's heap off dot com slash the Bechtel cast. Yes, um, but this is the least Shreky and entry. It's like this, It's like Shrek three doesn't even know what happens in Shreks one and two, which is wild because they fucking lived it. It's absurd. Um Okay. So, so Charming is is rallying the fairy tale villains to, you know, be like, hey, it's it's our turn to be the heroes or whatever.

So then when we cut back to Shrek, he is about to go on a voyage to find cousin Arthur. But before he leaves, Fiona is like, Shrek, I'm gregnant. But also I was, I was considering experimenting with shreknant or shregnant. I like, shregnant. Well, you coined the term shreg in our Shrek two episode. I don't know if you remember this, Jamie. No, I just have so many good ideas that I just kind of forget about someone though. I that was so good of me to do. I'm

so glad I did that, So proud of you. So, so Fiona is like I'm shregnant and is like yeah, but he's very worried about being a bad dad because ogres are not known for being nurturing. Oh my god, such a forced plot point. I'm like, enough with the ogre lore. Oh my goodness, it's a lot. I also wait, quick question, So the timing of like when they're in Far Far Away, do you think that they fucked raw the day her father died? I'll ask it. Do you think they fucked raw the day her father died? Or

do you think it was before? Good question. It seems as though Shrek leaves on this journey very shortly thereafter, but then that introduces like, well, we don't know about ogre gestation. Well, yes, true, so maybe they fucked raw and then two days it or she knows she's shregnant, she's shregnant. I would have actually, because this movie likes, you know, it's very shreky in to show something that happens in the real world, but like covereding goo and stinky.

I would have liked to see a stinky pregnancy test. Oh. I would have liked to see it, say shregnant on the clear blue or the clear green, more like clear green test. Okay, okay, now we're talking. We're writing a movie right now there, So I want the clear green to show two gooey lines and it says. She says, oh no, I'm shregnant. Um and then to you this my piece smells horrible or whatever. Yeah, but we don't get that. We just get the scene where Fiona is like,

I'm shregnant, and then Shrek is reacting with apprehension. He has a nightmare about it, where hundreds of little shred eggs are like running around. He's scrambling to take care of them and to keep them safe, his scrambled shreggs.

They're uh, like I did like when that whole that whole nightmare sequence is annoying because you're just like, Okay, this is well, I don't know, we'll we'll talk about it in the discussion, because I do think that like exploring the theme of like anxiety around being a parent, very valid theme to explore. I think this movie just does it in a kind of like bizarre and like lazy,

half asked way, like a trophy gendered way. Yeah, exactly, Like it's we're not saying that, Like I mean, if I found out I was shregnant, I would be having dreams about Donkey with my face on. Yeah, I would just be beside myself. But yeah, I don't know it just it's they're like worthwhile themes being explored in the laziest,

most boring way possible in this movie. Yes, indeed, So, Shrek, Donkey and puts in Boots arrive at their destination, which turns out to be a high school, and cousin Arthur turns out to be a teenager voiced by Justin Timberlake, who everyone thinks is a huge loser. Terrible twist. Yeah, I also think Justin Timberlake is a huge loser. Same. Do you think that David Fincher saw Shrek the Third and was like, we gotta put him in the social network? Yes?

Or now he's got the chops you can do. I think I think he saw Black Snake Moan and was like, I gotta put him in the social network. I don't know if that movie came out before the Social Network, but I haven't even seen Black Snake Moan. Is that that's Samuel L. Jackson and Christina Ricci right? Yeah? And I think, if I'm remembering correctly, Justin Timberlake is also in it, or maybe he is. I'm looking at his

filmography right now. I regret to inform you. Or maybe David Fincher saw Southland Tales and was like, I gotta put justin Timberlake in the social network. I feel like David Fincher did see Southland Tales. That movie sorry for anyone who likes it, but I think is the And this is not an unpopular opinion, but that movie, in my humble opinion, is a turd. Whoa Anyway, I haven't seen it, but I just I looked at the poster. I'm like, yeah, I think David Fincher seen it, but

I don't know. I don't really know what he's like. I'll have to mean text him. He does seem mean, but not like funny, mean like James Cameron just mean yeah, like do seventy takes until you're crying? Mean yeah, Like I like like a like a kuber kind of mean. Not James Cameron being like if anyone wants my attention on set, they have to sound the auga. That's like, did you see that? No, Oh my god, that's I'm I'm not making that up. That is something that he said.

He's just like do he's the He's the worst, He's bad, and like we could get into that because there's I mean, we will when we cover another Titanic episode this year. Actually, I think we really should because there's been a discourse around Avatar tooth that I feel like it's very much worth discussing, even though we just talked about Avatar for a very long time with Ali Naddy. But it's just like, okay,

compartmentalizing my feelings just to share this. The film crew on Avatar Way of Water has to play an a wuga sound effect of a submarine diving alarm to get James Cameron's attention on set. Cameron quote, I don't even respond unless they do the auga unquote embarrassing. That's funny,

mean embarrassing. Yeah, moving on anyway. So Justin is in the movie is the point, and we don't love Shrek is like, guess what, Arthur your first in line for the throne, And so Arthur leaves with Shrek, excited by the idea of being king. But when Arthur realizes how much responsibility it requires, he freaks out and tries to turn the ship around because he and Shrek start fighting.

The ship crashes on an island, where Merlin famously a wizard voiced by which I'm always delighted to see Eric Aile but I'm like, oh my god, what is happening there? Just the doing back bench to tell me more things about masculine responsibility, like shut okay. So Merlin is like Shrek, I'm not going to help you until you stop being so angry, and then he has all of the characters do some soul searching, and Shrek is still clearly anxious

about being a father. We learned that Arthur was abandoned by his father, and Shrek and Arthur have a heart to heart and they are bonding almost as if they are father and son. And but Shrek does say something interesting that I think. I was trying to figure out if there's any way that Shrek the Musical, which is my favorite Shrek Shrekian shreky in property, because I believe that Shrek the Musical debuts in oh eight, the year

after this. But I was curious if like this was being developed alongside Shrek three, or if like Shrek three wasn't able to be like to get into Shrek the Musical because they were kind of close together and it takes so long to develop a musical. But Shrek does say that his father tried to eat him, yes, when he was a little Shrek a Shrek he just hatch out of his Shrek and and his father says, I'm

gonna eat you. That's not good, but I leave. In the musical, the way that Shrek's childhood Shrek's childhood trauma is actually like a huge plot point and Shrek the Musical, and it's why it's the best Shrek. They are examining

Shrek's sensitive side with farts, of course. But what happens in Shrek the Musical is that Shrek's parents kick Shrek out of their house when he's seven and say, go make something of yourself, and you look like shit, and like that's kind of They're like, it's going to be hard to be an ogre in the world, which is why we're kicking you out of our house. Question mark. But so he was like badly parented in a different way in the musical. Are Shrek's parents also ogres or

was there like an adoption thing? Okay, So that's why it's confusing that they kick him out there like the world is hostile and so are we, Like I don't understand, but in the musical it's very effective and I feel like, again, just another way that Shrek is lazy. He's like, um my dad tried to eat me. That won't be coming up again. Yeah. The point is, uh, Shrek is now

justin Timberlake's daddy um back in far far away. And to be clear, like, and I don't want to speak for you, Jamie, but I don't have a problem with the idea of a story being about a father son relationship.

There's nothing inherently wrong with that. And I think there should be more stories that at least feature a positive and like meaningful story about a father son relationship, because so many of the ones that we get on screen are actually very toxic relationships, but the movie doesn't present them that way. It's just like, yeah, this is how fatherhood is or whatever. I am inclined to agree with that. I just feel like it's like not in first position

for me. I feel like they've had no people that a lot of shots to get it right, and if they haven't at this point point, I'm like, well, that's none of my business, right, But but I also I do agree. I think that there are there are versions of this story that have been historically ignored, but unfortunately this movie is not doing anything. And when we're coming down on like father son movies, which are almost all

of them. Yeah, I'm just coming down at the sheer volume of them, and they're like, it's I feel like it's just like a classically I'm more saying like, and there's not a lot else. It's very rare to see any other parent child relationship of any sort other than fathers and sons because of who's been historically who's been historically put first. So I actually am very sick of fathers and Sons movies. But if the movie is really good, then fine, good for that. But it just this movie.

Yeah right, yes, So back in Far far Away, Charming shows up with his army of villains. They storm the castle. He claims the throne as his own, and he plans to basically kill Shrek and Arthur upon their return. Fiona, her mom, and her friends such as snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, and Rapunzel, try to escape, but Rapunzel betrays Fiona because she turns out to be Charming's his girlfriend and something that they also do basically nothing with. It's yeah, and

so Charming locks Fiona and the others in the dungeon. Meanwhile, Merlin uses his magic to transport Shrek, Arthur, Donkey, and Puss in boots back too far far away. But also during this teleportation Donkey and Puss his bodies are accidentally switched. And that's comedy and does that lead anywhere? Of course

not does about boring jokes? Ye? Yes, So then Shrek goes to stop Charming and to save Fiona, but Charming captures Shrek and his friends, and this is when Arthur finds out that he isn't really next in line to be king, that Shrek is, and that Shrek just didn't want to do it. And Shrek calls Arthur a fool and a loser and tells him to leave, and he's really mean. So Arthur does just that, he leaves, and it's just and at this point you're really like struggling

to care. Yeah, I'm like, what's happening? No, justin Timberlake has exited the movie, darn uh. So then Charming puts on this show. It's similar to the dinner theater show we saw him doing at the beginning of the movie where he vanquishes an ogre, because Charming's plan is to kill Shrek onstage during the show, which is both lazy and iconic. I don't hate it, and it plays out, I couldn't decide if I but then I, but then I did hate it. As the scene was happening, I'm like,

this is so ridiculous. Okay, all right, he's gonna kill him on stage. Yes. Meanwhile, Fiona and the others break out of the dungeon and storm the castle with the help of Donkey Post Pinocchio, GINGI the whole gang. Along the way, they bump into Arthur and Post some donkey tell Arthur that Shrek said all of those mean things to protect him so that Charming wouldn't kill Arthur. Cut to the play. Charming is about to kill Shrek, but Fiona and the other ladies bust into save the day.

But oh no, I mean there is the classic another I think something very shreky in is um a moment of woman empowerment that goes nowhere correct a classic shreky and thing to do. It's like and now it's it's the woman is kicking. And now back to your regularly scheduled Shrek doing stand up, Like, what the funk was that he's doing a tight five? He's he's he's doing a roast of Charming. He's in the roast battle, yeah,

and he won. He won, of course gets safe. Um, so Fiona and the other princesses show up to save the day, but it doesn't go anywhere, and Charming in the villains get the upper hand again, but then Arthur shows back up and gives a speech about how they don't have to be villains. They can be whoever they want to be, because even though everyone might think they're

a monster, it's about who you think you are. And you're like, oh yeah, sort of like exactly what happens in Shrek one, but makes less sense, and it's from Justin timber Like, I'm so not interested in Justin Timberlake's journey towards becoming a diplomat like. But his speech inspires the villains to throw down their weapons, but Charming isn't

having it, and he tries to kill Shrek. But then Charming gets crushed by a tower and presumably killed, And then Arthur takes the crown and accept his role as king. I can't believe it. Then Merlin switches Donkey and puts back in their rightful bodies, and then we cut back to the swamp where Fiona has three little shreds and they've hatched, They've hatched out of their out of their Shrek eggs, and Shrek is good daddy and Fiona is a good mummy and and they have a nice ogre

family the end. Yea, I love that. Yeah, so let's take a quick break and come back to discuss and

we're back. Yeah, yeah, what shall we talk about first? Well, I feel like we actually have um touched on quite a bit of stuff already, I think, I mean, but let's I guess close the loop on the every movie is about fathers and sons thing I do stand by way I said, And I feel like this movie is kind of a classic example of why that can be so frustrating, because it's like, I just feel like there's so many more interesting parent child dynamics in this movie

that to some extent it is supposed to be about parental anxiety, and like, I just think it's really, um,

it was a huge missed opportunity. And and you know, I guess missing an opportunity is very shreky in in a way, UM true to say something impactful, UM, but introducing a new character instead of like focusing on the characters we have just felt like a huge mistake because it's like, not that I want Direct the Third to be about grieving a parent, but it's I just like I truly was baffled, and I feel like it really spoke to how poorly Fiona has been characterized historically and

really reminded me about how it took five white guys to write this story that we are given like a really strong thread that should be playing into the whole movie. At the very beginning, Fiona's father dies. Is it funny when he dies? Yes, I kind of like the frog bit, Oh he's not dead yet. It went on for so long. I was so over it after the first time, I

was over it because I was feeling for Fiona. But I do think that the few people I've told I was watching Shrek the Third, that scene is the only thing anyone remembers there, Like, is that the one where the frog dies and it takes a long time like shocking? But yes, yes, But yeah, I just like that's like a really strong thread and it's not called back to

at all like Fiona. I feel like it's it's so it ties into like a huge issue with Fiona in this or just like a very heavily gendered trope in this where it's like it's never considered that Fiona might have anxieties about becoming a parent, Like that's such so part and parcel too, like lazy motherhood narratives that are generally written by not mothers, where it's like, oh, well, yes, it is her feminine duty not only to want to get pregnant but not have a single worry in the

world about the little shregs um like nothing nothing, nothing, nothing, And the fact that she has just lost her parents would be another sort of way into exploring that anxiety of like what was her elthood? Like does she have any anxieties about like her children being a part of this like royal fucking mess? Does she have anxieties about

shreks ability to parent? Is there? Like there's just like so like a ten year old could come up with a bunch of different ways for Fiona to be more active within this story, and it's just like completely ignored so aggressively that they feel they need to introduce a character that no one cares about in order to like get Shrek to the same place, but like in a worst less effective way, like she's right there. I feel like that's every shruck discussion. Like Fiona is right there,

she has the narrative thrust. Why can't she fucking like have us an actual story and not just like and to the point where, like when she comes out and I forgot that there was like the princess fight scene, and I guess, like theoretically, like that's better than nothing, but I was actually really annoyed by it because it was just like, Oh, cool, You're going to do the one thing Fiona is ever allowed to do, which is

one fight scene per movie. But it's like, even that's fucking lazy at this point because it's not really leading anywhere and she still doesn't get to do anything, Like

I just for sure. Yeah, just touching a little bit more on the like parenthood through line of the movie, reiterating how easy of a choice it is to put the woman in the role of being so hyper enthusiastic about becoming apparent to the point where she has seemingly no anxieties, no hesitations, nothing like that, because I think it's like leaning into this trope of like women are quote unquote baby crazy, whereas men are so often presented

in media as being extremely reluctant about becoming a father because they think it's gonna like, I don't know, ruin his life or something, as if to say in hetero couples, women don't experience like doubt and apprehension about becoming a parent, and that men don't experience enthusiasm when we know that the full range of emotion is available to people of all genders as it relates to parenthood and everything in

the world. Right like it it's not like we're even saying, you know, like this is not like a woman never has never felt this way about parenting, and a man has never felt this way about parenting. Obviously, Like tropes don't come from nowhere. We're not saying that no one's ever reacted this way to a Gregnancy or even a shregnancy, but it is so so done to fun and death and I and I think it's like this is something that always kind of bugs me about the Trek movies.

It's like they're so aggressively marketed as like an alternative to like the tropes that you're used to, but it's like very much not like lean yeah, in terms of its values. I feel like the first one is like the closest to actually subverting something and like, you know, like with beauty is more than how you appear, and like all that stuff like that felt genuinely subversive for a kid's movie, But by the time they get to the third one, it's like it's just like no one's

even trying. It bums me out. And it's because I do think that Fiona is an awesome character. She's awesome, and like I felt like she was disrespected in the second one because they literally try to like roofy her, and then in the third one it's even worse. They Like I was glad that at least we I don't know.

There's like large chunks of this movie where she's completely absent because shreks going off on a quest with Donkey and Puss in boots, and we only cut back to her to see her baby shower, like, which again is just so lazy and gendered. It's so and it also is my impression of that scene. I've been to. I've been a many many baby showers. I love being an auntie.

It very much read to me as like five men trying to imagine what a baby shower would be like, and it's like, oh, it's just women insulting each other and giving each other gifts, and like it's so it's so lazy that I didn't play any games. No one had a like all the princesses, the way they're characterized, they're basically indistinguishable from each other because they're all character I think the subversion that they're making is like they're

actually vapid, evil bitches. Isn't that funny? And you're like, no, why are Fiona's friends mean? Like I hate it? And also shouldn't we cut back to a scene where like Fiona is making choices about the kingdom like she is right now the de facto leader of the kingdom, Like, yeah, shouldn't we see here be doing stuff? You know? Not that again, not that we're pro monarchy here, but like even so, but the movie is so like so like, can she do something? Cold? You do something? I felt

the same way about. Queen is a Queen Gertrude? Get that right, Fiona's mom? Yes, I don't know. Queen Lilian. Queen Lilian, Oh my god, I'm so why did I say Queen Gertrude? I think it's literally from Hamlet. I'm sorry, I'm so smart um, so, okay, Queen Lilian, I feel like she again was just like not she was a bigger part of Shrek to than she is Shrek the Third. But again, you have like a really really strong like I would totally understand if like a Shrek movie doesn't

really want to explore grief. Fine, it's for eight year old I get it. But even if you take that out of the equation, why isn't Queen Like? It just feels like theoretically, because I don't there should be like some little snappy little title for whatever this this trope is. And I feel like it is really like thriving around this time where it's like the character has all of the trappings of a quote unquote strong female character, but

it means nothing. It's like strictly symbolic because it never has any bearing on the plot, and they'll always sort of go towards the traditional feminine expectations, but sometimes they get to kick right, but they're not really subverting anything. And I feel like Queen Lillian is the same thing where it's like she gets her like fighting girl Boss moment where she like slams her head against the wall and the walm brakes great love that, but like, why

can't I don't know. It's like Lillian and Fiona are We're told repeatedly, these are empowered women, these are strong female characters, but it's never brought up between the two of them. Why couldn't one of us? Like why not Queen Lilian? Why is she like disqualified? What are the rules of this monarchy? Like? It never comes up that she would have any interest in like but we're told she's like this girl boss, but she has no interest in the boss portion. It just doesn't make sense to

me here, it doesn't make sense. Here's a pitch for a snappy name. Yeah for this trope, because these characters are so or because it's like presentation of like quote unquote girl power is very hollow and never like leads to anything. What if it's hollow? Holly, thank you, thank you so much? Oh my gosh, cheers, applause. Wow, people are getting out. I'm screaming, crying. Anyway, Jo had an orgasm. Um, I'll keep work shopping it. But I think that's kind

of perfect. I feel like a hollow. That's a strong hollow, hollow. We'll figure it out. Listeners sound off, What the funk? Or maybe someone has already like attributed a label to this and we just haven't heard about it, but like because we have been, you know, it's like it like ties into like you're just saying like girl power feminism, where it's insisting that it's really subversive feminist thing, but it's falling into traditional values pretty cleanly at the end

of the day. But they're allowed to say one swear or something. Um, yeah, it's very symbolic hollow pepe poop who I don't like it, and that's my pitch. Um I love that too, but yeah, I just was really frustrated by like you know, and and and to the point where it's like Queen Lilian and Fionna are like standing in the background of a lot of these scenes

and they never say anything. It's really frustrating. I want to go through beat by beat as far as what happens with Fiona as they're like escaping the castle and like doing this like again quote unquote girl power part of the story. So Charming breaks into the castle, Fiona

takes initiatives. She leads the other women to safety, which include snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Rapunzel, who are four of the most damseled characters in fairy tale lore, which will come back in a moment, and then also an ugly step sister and an ugly sub sec and Fiona's mom. Yes, yeah, and I do feel like that. I don't know if if Shrek is the first franchise to do this, but like that has been. It feels

this actually feels quite shreky in. I don't like how they're like, let's create an alternative to the aggressively damseled characters by making them horrible. Like that just felt like there's so many ways to do that. Why would you

choose that direction? Whatever, that's the creative choice they made, and I don't have to like it, um, but um, I feel like that is like very shreky in, because that's why the movies exist, is to like make fun of disney Ship, because it started with Jeffrey Katzenberg wanting to spite Disney. So it's like that is the formula of like find Disney tropes and then put them on their head, even if you're making it bad in a different way. So that feels very in line with the

shreky In stuff. And then that's like kind of weirdly like something that Disney also starts to do, because that that whole sequence where my to me of like the wreck it Ralph thing where it's like the Disney princesses appear as themselves, but now they're like different, and it's

like it's Shrek's impact. Look, Shrek the Third not very good, but Shrek's impact really kind of culturally cannot be overstated because it's like Shrek did so well at making fun of Disney that Disney had no choice but to make fun of Disney, and that really makes you think, Wow, the shreky and impact on the world is palpable. It's like I can smell it. Um. Okay, so we've got this this group of women. Fiona is leading them to safety. We see that scene in the dark Corridor where the

princesses are bickering. They seem to be jealous of each other's beauty. Fiona's mom even has to say, like, let go of your petty complaints and let's work together. Fiona leaves them out of the castle and that seems like they're safe until Rapunzel betrays them and the rest of

them are captured and thrown in the dungeon. And then Fiona is like, we need to find a way out, but she only says that after she learns that, like Shrek is in danger, So like why wouldn't she try to like be more adamant about escaping just because they're locked in a dungeon. But it's not until she was like, oh my god, my husband and my husband, I have

to get out now. I don't know, like I truly think that, Like Fiona's plotline is like comically underthought, like truly her mote like it just this is like a bizarre gripe, but just like another way where I'm just like wow, like the guy's writing this movie. It's just like Fiona is having a baby shower, it seems like. And then which made me ask myself, how long has

Shrek been gone? If we're to believe that, like Fiona has basically the gestation period of a human, which I think she went because she was human for a very long time. But also I don't know, I don't know how that works, right, But it's like a shark ban gone for six months, Like baby showers generally don't happen until pretty far into the pregnancy to the shregnancy yeah, the shregnancy. But again, it's just like these are just not things that the writers know or care about, or like,

her motivation from scene to scene makes no sense. It's just like it feels like they are like, Okay, there's a scene where she's kicking, and we can call it a day. I found that her bringing her friends and mother to safety to be the most effective motivated Fiona moment because it didn't feel forced. All the other stuff forced. But unfortunately, as we've said, goes nowhere because what happens.

So she's like, we need to escape. And then the other princess is the very traditionally damse old ones assume the position of waiting to be rescued by a man, and Fiona is like, what are you doing? And they're like, we're waiting around to be rescued, and snow White says something like, you know, we're just a bunch of hot princesses and a pregnant ogre and an old lady, like

what are we supposed to do? And that's when Fiona's mom is like bashes her head against two stone walls to break them down, and you know, Fiona is like, we're gonna take care of business, we're gonna actively do something, and that's when we have this like quote unquote girl power montage where they're like tearing their dresses to make

them easier to move around. In Cinderella is like sharpening her glass slipper, there's like a bra burning moment, which is like when you think about what that's symbolic of, right, I again, you're like, I mean, I guess it's very shrekky and to present an empty reference that makes no

sense within the story. So I sure, but yeah, I mean, well, brad branding is like a whole other thing because like that that's like a cultural myths like I didn't even but didn't happen, but not that five white guys in a room would know that. I'm sure they're like, oh, that definitely happened, and that meant that they're like, um, girl power, feminism. What does it look like they burn

a bra? Okay, let's put that in the movie. Done, done, done, write it down like it's it's so yeah, it's just like really really um lazy easy lazy lazy doesn't make sense. Then the women storm the castle and fight, using their specific skills to the best of their ability. I guess in terms of like didn't hate it, Yeah, because it's like snow snow White uses the animals. Yeah, she summons a bunch of woodland critters and has them attacked the guards.

Cinderella uses her glass slipper as a weapon. Sleeping Beauty passes out and trips some people with her body, and then they all invade the castle during Charming's show, and Fiona's like, Shrek, I'm here to save you. But then Fiona is immediately tied up and damseled. It's up to right, and so it's up to Shrek to like fight the villain, and then it ends up being Dragon, who was also basically written out of the movie, who swoops in and

lands the killing blow by knocking a tower over onto Charming. Right, So not that she gets any like recognition for doing that, because she's really like mommyfied by this story as well, where like she's basically only mommy, Like she's she's now mommy to bananas, Yes, bananas the donkey Dragon, which and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's like, yeah, it's I feel like it is a very tropy thing. I know, it's a very tropy thing that once a character is

a mother. They are like and that's the whole character. Now, mother could not possibly have another facet to their life, and that is very much what happens to Dragon, and then it's eventually what happens to Fiona. And don't we

love that? We do not? Um. Yeah, Ultimately it's the veil or like the facade of women being empowered and like doing something, having some agency, but it's all extremely hollow because when the moment comes where they can actually like affect the story in some significant way, such as Fiona saving Shrek, that doesn't happen. She's tied up, she's damned old. So just it's like super empty. It's just a facade of empowerment for women and nothing actually meaningful

or real. Yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah, it's it's a bummer. I do think that, Like, you know, this movie came out in two thousand seven, and I think if it was made today that would be less of an issue. I do feel like children and maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but like I think the kids movies specifically have come a very very long way and they last like fifteen to twenty years, and I think like more so than a lot of genres for adults. Like, I think it's come further than rom coms. It's come

further than action movies. I think, honestly, if I'm poking a little fun at current movie tropes, if this movie came out today, it would be about Shrek's childhood trauma, and it would be about Fiona's childhood trauma, and it would be beautiful and it would make us cry. And that's why I'm excited for Shrek five. Um. But but yeah, like I think that like this era is, it's so bizarre and it makes you feel like you me much like Queen Lilian and banging my head against a wall.

But the wall is not breaking. It remains much the same. Because you're telling me that this is an empowered female character. But then, but that's not what's happening. Um. But you know, I think that I don't know, there's there's better Shreks ahead. I can feel it. I can just feel hello, oh my god, and that I shouldn't have said that. Yeah, there's an emergency happen anyway. Don't get this out of the It's an emergency. Everyone's getting scary set of Shrek

five because we're going to add a female character. Oh my god, because Shrek five there's a set. Because Shrek five is live action, they're doing it's Brian Darcy James and Sutton Foster don't the musical um and it looks normal. It doesn't look scary. Okay, So did you have anything else to say about the hollow feminism of this movie? No, I don't think so. Okay, We've we've talked about this before in Shrek episodes. There are so many of the era UM I wasn't picking up on quite as many

um gay jokes in this one. I think that there was a queer coded stylist, which we've seen a million times. It was very lazy troupe. But the Shrek franchise, especially in earlier installments, excuse transphobic like all the time. And it's tricky because it's like, I don't know how the

ugly step sisters are. I mean, they're coded as like looking more masculine, and therefore they are ugly, like they have masculine features, and so they're ugly and are voiced by male voice actors exactly, and not just male voice actors. I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. Their voice by Larry King, and we just filled in I did not recognize those voices, and so you're like, and why on earth is that? I Like? I just

was like, well, like, for what I mean? I don't think that this movie is as aggressively transphobic as the first movie, and not as aggressively transphobic as Shrek the Musical, which had to have several lines removed um for subsequent productions, which I think we've talked about on the show before,

and Shrek two. This was a big part of our discussion because Shrek two is still leaning into a lot of very transphobic gender normative jokes, and because this is a sidebar, but because Shrek three is called Shrek the Third, I think Shrek two should have been called Shrek Jr. It's only right. But we can move on from that. Um.

But yes, want bananas did get his own movie off manners. Um, Okay, No, but I I think it's it's I think frustrating that, from what I can remember, is the least transphobic Shrek movie and it's still pretty transphobic. Yes, and indeed, um, And it's baffling to me that in a movie franchise that's all about beauty is found within that being the sorry to say thrust again, but being the thrust of

the narrative. Do not just don't include characters from literature who are called the ugly step sisters because like or if you're going to include them, subvert like you know,

subvert that or like anything, just do something. But because these ugly subsister characters are presented as not conforming to rigid Western beauty standards, and it seems like the intention of the joke is something along the lines of these women are masculine and therefore ugly, right, horrible statement to make in any movie, but especially when targeted towards children,

And why include about accepting yourself? Yeah, it's so it's just like these movies are like it's very shriky and for something to mean nothing because yeah, I was really I was really frustrated about that. It's so like, I guess I apologize if if we're not like having the conversation that deserves if we had about like transphobia inside of this franchise, this one for me famously uh this

person with one brain cell. So but like there was so much like weird coding that it was like difficult to like, there wasn't an outright like the characters were not never declared to be anything, but uh, this woman. But like because of all these creative choices, you're like, the coding is there, the coding is for sure, they absolutely and like I just yeah, it's just so fucking ridiculous that. Yeah, like you're totally right that this franchise specifically,

it's just nothing means anything. No, Nope, this is a sidebar. But like, also, why do people want Prince Charming to come back? I couldn't stand him in the last movie. Why is he back? I don't because they need a villain. I'm not sure you know who should be back? More

is Dragon again basically written out of this movie. This was also part of our discussion on the Shrek two episode where she's not in the movie because someone, maybe Fiona, is like, hey, Donkey, where's Dragon And he says, oh, she's really moody, So I'm like distancing myself from her. She's on her Dragon period, so you're just like, oh

my god. In this one, when Donkey is about to embark on his ernie with Shrek, Dragon is there with their five babies, and Donkey says something like, oh, yeah, I don't want to leave either, but you know, Shrek he needs me. So Donkey is just like leaving Dragon with their many babies. He's shreking his parental responsibilities. Well, I will say I think that Donkey appears to be a good parent, which that is, he's very nurturing, he

seems supportive and loving. Yeah, I think it is like, again, very trophy and shitty that it's like, well, the father needs to go on a quest and like the stay at home. I don't think it's even bad that Donkey goes on a quest, but it's like, well, but we're never going to see that in the reverse in these movies, and that is more the issue. I was happy that he that Donkey was enthusiastic about parenthood in opposition to Shrek, and I was happy that he was excited to be

an uncle. Like I have no real issue with Donkey in this movie, and that's partially because he doesn't really do anything. He see Shrek's dick. That's that's the last thing that happens before the title sequence. This is very true. I also found it fascinating that so there's a moment where Pus starts explaining sex to Shrek to be like, this is how babies are made, and Shrek is like, yeah, I know, because Shrek Fox, this is canon. We know this. Yeah,

but he sucked his wife raw the day her father died. Yes, he's serious. Yeah, grow up people, and that's cannon Like put it on the Wikipedia page, Shreck, if you had a fun immediately after receiving the news of the death of her father. It's how they blow off steam, and you're rude to judge them for it. It was making love. It's not weird anyway. Okay, So so grief can look like anything. So pusses explaining sex and Shrek is like,

I know. But then Donkey is like, wait, how does it work, as if Donkey doesn't understand sex or like conceiving of babies. Meanwhile, Donkey is the father of five children,

so he presumably had sex. It does appear again, this is a very like it appears that Donkey's kids are all the same age, which and and Shrek eventually has I think triplets, which leads me to another thing that happens when five straight white guys write a movie together, which is that they seem to believe that women give birth in litters like like cats and dogs and um, and I celebrate that that is a level of not knowing.

I'm like, I have to assume because they're all like in their thirties and forties, statistically probably one of them is a parent, And like, how could you still say that? Um, it's really bizarre. No, not sure. No person with the womb gives for the gist. One. It's a bunch, it's a son of children. It's a heap what I will say.

Going back quickly to the very like trophy gendered way in which the like Shrek and Fiona, parenthood storyline is represented, I did appreciate that the story takes it in the direction of Shrek not being worried about his life being ruined, because I think so much of that like trophy narrative is like, oh, you know, I don't want to get married to some ball and chain, I don't want to have kids. They're just gonna drag me down and not let me live my like whatever dick swinging lifestyle I

want to live. But I at least appreciate that Shrek is like, I'm not worried about my life being ruined. I'm worried about not being a good parent and that I'm going to like mess up my kids, right. But his reasoning is, you know, ogres are not known for being sweet, nurturing caregivers. But the whole premise of the movie is that ogres are misunderstood and they are vilified

for no reason and all these things. So it's curious why he I mean, I get why he's still why he thinks that, And again, I understand apprehension and reluctance as it relates to parenting. This is something though, that people of all genders experience, which we've talked about. But I think, yeah, again, it's like, it's not it's the same thing with um with Donkey going on a quest, It's not The issue isn't that he goes on a quest. The issue is that Dragon. It would never happen that

Dragon would go on a quest. It's not an issue that Shrek has anxieties about what kind of parents he is going to be. Is that the franchise would never let Fiona have those same anxieties. It's an equitable environment for storytelling exactly. The final thing I want to say is that Ginger there's a scene where he is scared, surrounded by villains with weapons, and Gingi poops and what Gingi poops out is a little purple gum drop which is identical to the two purple gum drops on his chest.

Does that mean that Gingy wears his own poop on his chest as nipples as two vertical nipples or or does he poop nipples? WHOA? Okay, these are some interesting thoughts that we have posited. Yes, don't rule it out. There's there's a lot to think about. Okay, this is maybe maybe maybe this is our new scabs dry scabs. Does Gingie poop nipples? Or does he wear his ship as nipples? It's a good questions, a valid question. Did Shrek and Fiona actually we answer that question? Yes, And

there's a tape. I've seen the tape. Have you ever seen the Colin Ferrell sex tape? Because I have no, I haven't seen that one. It's good. Oh okay, nice. Well, I guess you can leave that in the episode or not, and I guess I'll just be surprised. All right, Okay, um, do you have anything else you want to say? Let me see what else? I mean? I think that like

there's probably more to, oh, I guess um, Merlin. I feel like there's a bunch of like very of the time mental health jokes made around Merlin, where the Justin Timberlake character is like, oh, yeah, they sent Merlin out here after he had a mental breakdown, and it's like Merlin is using like mental health terms and Shrek is like shut up, Like but then he's also using extremely ablest language and a few examples, and he's also with

that he's insulting other characters for their struggles with mental health. But then at the same time, like what Merlin does is helpful in like further characterizing Justin Timberlake. But then once Justin Timberlake uses the mental health exercise that Merlin has him do, Merlin is then like you're a basket case. And I was like, all right, which like, oh gosh, And all that happens there is that we learned that Arthur has abandonment issues because he was abandoned by his father.

Of course that would lead to trauma for a person. But yeah, for Merlin to be like, Wow, what a nutcase, And then it's so ridiculous. I really can't stand it. Shrek the third, it's a stinky more like Shrek the Third. But is it more Shrek than nipples? We don't know. I think I smell some new merch coming. I think

I smell some nipples. I oh god, no one wants that merch, Caitlin, Um oh subverse Okay, I did say subversion a plot Warlock, because we usually have plot witches a plot witch, but this time it's get Wizard, so it doesn't do anything, but it is something that happened. Um. And then I think. My last thought on this one is that this movie convinced me that Fiona would be

not unreasonable to leave Shrek. I agree, Yeah, because if I'm Fiona and my husband doesn't even say, doesn't even say, well, you could do the job, because she we've just seen a whole montage where she's doing the job better than him. It's her family. Yeah, if I'm married to someone that it doesn't even occur to them. They would rather go on a quest and bring back justin timber Lake, then suggest that I could do a job that I had been doing to some extent for a huge chunk of

my life. I would not stay with that ogre. Yeah, I wouldn't. I think that, and I certainly wouldn't let them intred nate me. And that's and that's my feminism. Yeah, I want to be with someone who tells me I can do it a job, nothing else. Brave of you. Um, thank you. Some people will say that's extreme, not me. I support it, thank you. At the end of the day, Shrek and Shreky in properties, I think they are being subversive.

But now that we've covered three Shrek movies, and you better believe we're gonna at some point cover Shrek four and make no mistake, we're still absolutely wild about this franchise in spite of only really having negative things to say about it. Um, it's hard to explain. You wouldn't understand. I'm sorry that was that was needlessly combative. You might understand that people have been listening to this show for seven years. You wouldn't understand. I bet there are a

lot of people who would understand. I think I think so, And I'm sorry I came in too hot and I shouldn't have. I'm going to issue a notes ap apology for coming in too hot on the strike the third episode. I already forgive you, Jamie, but um, the point is to be Shreky and is to be subversive, but not but never in quite the right ways, never in ways that are actually commenting on things, or like championing marginalized people, or are using effective comedy things like that, except for

the frog thing, which apparently really stuck with general audiences. Yeah, I did kind of. So right after the frog King dies there's a like kind of funeral procession scene where it's like raining and dark and sad and some is playing and I did. I was like, damn, that is sad about that king. It was pretty Yeah, And again, like we were saying at the beginning of the episode, that could have been and you can kid the movie if I this Pixar movies exist, you know, like not

that I want Shrek to be a Pixar movie. That would be so fun. Actually yeah, I actually don't want to, Like I don't really want Shrek to plumb the depths really, but like if you're going to have that whole funeral scene, you can't like never bring that up again. Like Fiona has lost her father, who we know because of Shrek too.

She is a very complicated relationship with there's a whole like a huge chunk of Shrek two as about her father being convinced by the evil fairy Prince Charming's mother, the fairy Godmother, to force his daughter to change species again. And then like they find out at the end of that movie that they have this commonality where her father's a frog. Okay, I just I'm sounding too serious for the sentences I'm saying, no, no, no, no, keep going. Her father's a frog, Fianna is an ogre. They choose

to stay in their natural forms. They don't want to conform, right, This is a huge thing they have in common. And it was a hard one thing for her dad to be able to admit that about himself. And I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, he owes a lot of his willingness to be in his natural form to seeing how

happy his daughter is in her natural form. So it's like it's a whole like I mean, and Shrek two is like not good, but you have all that fucking raw, grizzly material and then you kill that character and the first ten minutes after this huge arc between them and she's like two seconds later it's like, well I'm gregnant now, Like it's it's it's like Fiona is always treated like only one thing can be happening with her. Um. That

is not how Strek is treated. He's struggling with a bunch of different things that wants, and he's on a quest and he's da dada like. He's allowed to be very kind of multi. Yeah, yeah, he can have more than one thing going on at one time. But it's like Fiona can't be grieving and shregnant and interested in having a job. That would be too much. It's too much to ask for. I just you know. And the movie is only like two minutes long. There was room

ten minute long credit. Are you joking, babe? It's I mean not that I'm gonna knock a movie for being eighty two minutes long. That's iconic. I love it. Please let there be more short movies. But yeah, that's to say, make it ninety minutes and give Fiona or cut out just a differently. I don't, Okay, we gotta get out of here. We gotta get out of here. You might leave.

It passes the Bechtel test. It does pass when the princesses are insulting each other incessantly, and it does pass um when they are I believe, when they are planning the the attack, it does also pass, so there's I would say most of the passes are frustrating because it's like women insulting each other at very gendered events in very gendered ways like oh, you're not prettier, I'm prettier. To be fair, we are always saying that to each other, and that is true. I'm popping out shreds like a

T shirt gun at a basketball game. So you know, like it passes the battle test. But the one true metric, yes, oh my god. And now is it the nipple scale or is it the ship drop ship scale? Hard to say, Okay, so our nipple scale or the scale formerly known as the nipple scale the artists formerly known scale zero to five nipples. Examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lenses,

I would give Struck the third. I would give it a half nipple, just in case there are like small children out there, maybe little girls who saw that sequence where it is a very hollow girl power sequence or it ends up being hollow because it doesn't lead to any thing really, But in two thousand seven, you know, it's like in two thousand and seven that the pickens are slam and maybe you know, yeah, if you've if you found it, I powering more power to you and

you've got better options now I agree with you there. Yeah, so just for that like little sliver of something that could be empowering for viewers, I will give it a half nipple. But because of everything else we discussed, it does not deserve more than that. I feel it doesn't, so I'll give my half nipple too. I don't know if I should give it to Fiona, who always deserves more than she's given in these movies, or if I should give it to Gingi's possible gum drop nipple slash

possible piece of poop. I mean, I think you know the answer, and it's feminists will be furious, but it's the gum drop poop slash nipple. Yeah, it is very much is what do you think you know? I think I'm actually I'm gonna match you and and so that Ginge and have a full poop nipple, full hot shit.

I will. I will bequeath the same half nipple. There's really not this is I think allow for the franchise, but I also don't really remember what happens in Shrek four because someone was someone the hands inside of me and so it may get worse. I feel like it gets better. I think the fourth one involves time travel. That's incredible. I can't know, or or the prequel or the prequel it doesn't like justin Timberlake is not in it. Okay, good and and we thank our lucky stars. Yes, he

was too busy. He was doing so set right. I have never seen Shrek four, so I am excited to watch it. And once again, I'll just be plugging puts in boots the Last Wish, which was an incredible piece of art and cinema, cinema cinema. On that note, happy New Year to all and to all a good but also that was subversive. That subverse notes incredible. Jamie, before you, but before you have to all a good Shrek. Scoot on over to our Matreon, where we have the Pinocchio

Wars about to happen, actively happening. It's coming, especially if you enjoy um these kinds of episodes. We do them pretty rarely on the main feed, but um, most of our Matreon episodes are just me and Caitlin tend to be a little looser. The movies tend to be generally pretty light, um, except for this month when we're doing the Pinocchio Wars, which is actually really serious. We're covering both the bad Robert Samakis one and the allegedly good Del Toro one. I still have yet to watch them,

but I can't wait. I love that Tom Hanks is in his flop era. It's so interesting. He's he's flopping around. He's about to be a man called Auto and I'm like, I'm not seeing that. I'm gonna see Megan five times. I already have my tickets. I have my tickets. Do you want to go to Marrow Night? Maybe because my ticket already? Oh wait, sorry I forgot your busy. Okay, anyway, we'll figure it out. You'll go again, and I'll go

with you. So the Matron is five dollars a month and you get to bonus episodes and access to a bad catalog of well over a hundred episodes. We've been doing the Matreon for around five years, it's true. Also, you can follow us on social media. You certainly can on Instagram and Twitter, and then you can go to t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast, where we have none other than a brand new shreky in shirt pillow phone case, other items, well, probably for promo images

post with our with our shreky in merch. Yeah, because we have some brag. We also have other new designs. We have the Flubber Mambo by Danny Elfman, which is a design honestly I wanted and so it had to happen. Also, I think it's a really fun design. It's great, it's wonderful. And we have feminist icon Paddington's and much demanded. Um. I drank tea from my feminist icon Paddington mug this morning because I don't recognize who I am as a

person anymore drinking tea. Oh my gosh, Jamie, Yeah yeah, I changed well, uh and that so that you can get that over at tea public dot com, slash v beck del cast. If you participate in Valentine's Day facori and so forth, they're fun little gifts, give them to whoever. I was not sure where that was going for a minute, because I forgot I was take me on a date. I forgot that like people love each other and they

give each other gifts romantically. For Valentine's Day, I got a hat for the HOLID got a hat for the holidays, and it's from It's from a livestock contest that happened in Ventura County. Most romantic gift I've ever received. It's like, wow, you get me, even more romantic of a gift than the give Carl. Okay, we gotta go, We gotta go. Bye bye bye