On the Bechdel Cast. The questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, z EFFI bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Hello, and welcome to the Shrektel Cast.
Whoas twenty twenty four baby nothing matters anymore and we're rebranding women. It's over intersectionality.
It's all about Shreks now, it's all.
About Shrek hates being a father. After one week, it's so hard, it stinks. We don't like it. Oh, raising my own children. I feel fucking sick in my head.
What would the Shrektel test be? Oh?
I think this? Okay? I was gonna make an argument that this movie really passes attractile test because it's like, how many Shreks are talking to each other about being Shrek in this movie. Like there's a whole sequence whereas just like Shreks are talking to Shreks are talking to Shreks, and they're talking about liberating Shreks. I'm like, this is like, this is the Shrek Dell test.
All.
It was like it's almost like you know when you see seeing in a Marvel movie that it's like, oh, someone told Kevin Faigey about the Bechdel Test, and now he's like, well, just have something, have something, and it feels forced. It was like that, but with like four hundred Shreks.
I there's a John ham Shrek. There's a unbelieveable Craig Robinson Shrek.
There is a Craig Robinson Shrek. There's a Kristin Shawl Shrek.
No witch, but there is a everyone is Jane Lynch's Shrek.
There is a Jane Lynch Shrek. And if that's not twenty ten, tell me what is.
I mean? Seriously, the witches have green skin. You think there would be solid among the witches and the Shreks.
And I have some thoughts on that, and I have some thoughts on that. And also like the randomest man in the world, Walt Dorn, who no offense to Walt Dorn, but who are you? It's baffling. Anyways, He's truly some guy. He like works in animation and they're like, you're fun, and it's like he, I mean, whatever, whatever. This is a main feed. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jimmie Loftis.
My name is Caitlin Derante, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminis lens. Before we even get into more details about that, the Shrek sinle? What Intershrek sinle? Excuse me, I can't try to say Intershrek sinle?
No feminist lens.
Do you see your isaacly I did see it and I loved it.
Thank you Aten.
Before we talk any more about intertrectionality, yep, I would love to plug the tour that we have coming up. Yes, yes, yes, yes, So you might have already heard listeners that Jamie and I are going on tour and it's for the most part a tour where we are covering the movie Barbie, so get excited. We are doing shows in San Francisco for SF Sketch Fest on February first, then we're scooping
over to Sacramento. We're doing a show on Barbie that unfortunately is already sold out, but we are doing a second show on the Wolf of Wall Street because we're like, we got to double up on Margot Robbie movies.
Which is such a confusing thing to pair with Barbie that it is not yet sold out and you could still get tickets to it.
Yeah, Well, we were like, should we do Oppenheimer And then we were unanimously like, no, we should not, thank you, so we're doing Wolf of Wall Street instead. There are still tickets available to that show in Sacramento on February second. On February third, we will be in Dallas covering Barbie.
Still tickets to that show available. On February fifth, we will be in Austin, and then we're scooting back to California to do a show in San Diego on February tenth, and all of those shows are also us covering Barbie, and we're gonna have a blast. We have so much fun during the live shows. We do extra things. We do slide shows, we do games, we wear fun outfits. There's lots of goofs. We usually eat on stage, you know, things like that.
There's always a meet and greed afterwards. There's tour exclusive birch. It's a blast and actually I feel like to transition back to the main episode that today we'll have a similar vibe because they tend to be kind of chaotic
and fun. We like to cover fun movies live and we also love to cover fun but also socially impactful movies to start the But if you would like to get tickets to that that tour, which you should, Yes, you can go to the link in the bio or go to link tree our link tree which is l I n K t R dot ee slash Bechdel Cast pain in the ass. Well worth it and we'll see you at the show.
Yeah. But now back to Shrek.
Back to the Shrektel cast. Yeah, okay, so this is it's interesting. I feel like, because our show has been around for so long, we're reaching the end of a lot of franchises we've been covering for for many years. I mean, we fortunately they made a season two of the Santa claus Is for us to cover with Grace this year. But you know, for a while, it seemed like we were we were gonna be out right, and we have. We still have the Puss and Booth spin offs.
But this is the final canonical Shrek movie we have not covered on the show. We're covering Shrek now forever after. Should we tell people what the Buckdel cast test is?
Well, we already discussed the Shrektel test, and I think that covers it now. Yeah, the show is named after the Bechdel Test, although we only ever use it as a jumping off point to initiate larger conversations about representation and intersectionality.
And the truth.
And it is a media metric created by Allison Bechdel along with her pal Liz Wallace, and so it's often called the Bechdel Wallace Test. It was a test that first appeared in Allison Bechdel's Duck to Watch Out For in the eighties, examining how women rarely speak to each other in movies, and specifically queer women in the representation of them in mainstream cinema. So that was what the
test was originally. There are many versions of it. Ours is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation about something other than a man? And we especially like it if the conversation has some kind of like narrative oomph to.
It, a little hoof, a little oof, a little fun.
Yeah. So yes, that is the Bechdel Test. Not to be confused with the Shrektel test, which.
We already we don't even need to talk about it again because we already know that this movie heartily passes heavily. But yeah, today we are talking about Shrek Forever after Shrek four. Many call it Shrek Forever after it was released in twenty ten, which I know because I went on a date to see this movie in high school. Thank you very much. It made three quarters of a billion dollars, which is a really shocking statistic for a movie that is both eighty minutes long and horrible, not
very good. I would say this is the weakest installed. It's the weakest installment for me by a country mile.
Really, It's just I find Shrek the Third to be a lot less.
Enjoyable Shrek the Third. I mean, I guess that this one is mercifully shorter.
It's not even they're both like eighty one minutes long.
Yeah, wow, Okay, I mean I guess I the third one is with Arty right ARTI pendrive.
Justin Timberlake, isn't it?
For some reason, the justin Timberlake one is pretty bad. I still feel like Shrek four takes it for me, uh, just because of the internal messaging. I feel like, you know, in Shrek one, and we've talked about this show, how Shrek changed everything. And I'm just quoting James Gun when I say that, Yeah, yeah, of course Shrek changed everything. And I think that that is unfortunately, whether you like
it or not, that is true. Yeah, Shrek changed children's entertainment for a long time, forever after, even forever after. It ain't ogre till it's ogre to quote the poster of this movie.
But the tagline of the movie.
Unfortunately, Yes, because this was marketed as the final chapter. Oh, that's which I mean in terms of canonical Shrek movies, it's the you know, it's been fourteen years now, it's been fourteen years and I can still smell the fresh farts. Wow. We have options, But in any case, I feel like this franchise starts with like Fiona, who, as we've talked about over the years, is she a you know, perfect feminist character. No, but I feel like she is like disenfranchised.
Does the movies go on like Shrek One Fiona is the best Fiona, and then we just see her like wifified and in Shrek Forever After, which we'll talk about,
we see an alternate reality Fiona where she is more empowered. Yes, but also there's all I don't know I think that this the Shrek Forever After kind of fucked with my head because we just covered because we're recording this in late December, we just did our live show about It's a Wonderful Life, and I'm just bowled over with how many feature films there are about how the world would be a shithole if one man didn't exist. I just don't buy it.
Okay, we're on the same wavelength as per usual. Because I finished this movie, I was like, Wow, that was just the exact same plot as It's a Wonderful Life. However, which movie do I like more? I think that Shrek Forever After is a better movie than It's a Wonderful Life.
And I know that is probably one of the most controversial statements ever made, But I have a master's degree in film and screenwriting, which I would never mention, but it does give me the credibility to say that, and you have to believe me, and you have to agree with me because of my credentials.
I respect your a pion, Yeah, thank you so much, our respect your opinion. This movie stinks. This movie is stinky, stinky poop poop. But but who's going to argue with a quarter billion or three quarters of a billion dollars. I have one last thing to say before we talk about this. For over an hour, I was thinking about the year twenty ten, right, Obama's first term. Yeah, remember that in any case, Shrek as a popular You know, this is a decade that Shrek owns true, right, Yes,
but things in movies are shifting. Shrek Forever After did it make seven hundred and fifty six million dollars. It sure did, But that is less money than Shrek the Third Maid and even less money than Shrek two made. Wo So Shrek's on the downturn.
Yeah, right.
And also four movies in a decade, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's you know, we've maybe reached peak Shrek saturation. We've also I've got Kung Fu Panda, right, We've got other DreamWorks that comes out in two thousand and eight, kind of coming for Shrek's Crown, that comes up between Shrek the Third and Shrek Forever After. But most pertinently, and I feel like you know where I'm
going with this. Oh, I already know a very important movie comes out in twenty ten, and I would say derails Shrek's chances at being a powerful franchise for over a decade. Okay, maybe even a more dominant species. I mean, do you know what movie I'm talking about?
Obviously you're talking about Despicable Me starring the Minions.
Yes, I had to check because I also went on a date in high school to see Despicable of Me. Of course, because when I was in high school I was ten.
Okay, I don't know if you remember this, but I went back and re listened to our Shrek the Third episode in which you very publicly and openly say that you got fingered during the screen of Shrek the Third in the theater.
I wasn't going to bring that up today because New Year knew me. But you're right, I have to No, no, no, don't edit it out. I need to own my past. You're right, and you would be right to say it.
Thank you.
Wow. I really don't know how to look out for myself whatsoever. Okay, So running the numbers, Running the numbers, because a little film called Despicable Me comes out in twenty ten. Let's see how close they came out together. Okay, Despicable Me starring of course grew in Le Mignon's that comes out June ninth. Shrek Forever After, I think would come out a little earlier. Yes, April May, in wide release May twenty first.
That's my sister's birthday.
Wow, she must have been so thrilled this year.
Yes, she was.
So they come out within a month of each other. Now I'm looking at domestic gross because Shrek Forever After it's got global clout, right, so it takes despicable me over in worldwide gross, but domestic grows. Something fascinating happens. Despicable me edges. Shrek for Americans are done with this guy. American said, no, we won't give him any more than two hundred and thirty eight million dollars, seven hundred and
thirty six, seven hundred eighty seven dollars. Okay, But these new guys, the Minions, they're like, wait, big Green guy, more like little little Yellow guy, because they give the minions two hundred and fifty one million, five hundred and thirteen thousand, nine hundred and eighty five dollars just a smidge more.
Uh huh.
And I just think that's it. There's sort of like a changing of the because Shrek changed everything. But also you gotta hang up that leather vest at some point.
Pals It's true. Well, and now we are in minion era. We are in the minion era Shrek era over except I know if you google is Shrek five happening? I know the answer is Shrek five is slated to come out in twenty twenty five, So we are actually not done with Shrek.
And I'm I'm thrilled and I think I honestly, as I was watching this movie, I was telling my boyfriend was like, I really think if Shrek came back after fifteen years and he's been on a fascinating I mean, and I'm not going to get into my history of the Shrek culture. I know I've done on the show before, but he'd been on this fascinating journey where he's like kind of a big joke but also so beloved that I feel like Shrek would be Shrek five would make
a billion dollars if it was good. If it was good, it would make a billion dollars if it.
Was like Shrek two quality.
Exactly, or even I mean, I think we can even dream bigger the last Oh yeah, and also I wanted to say, the next highest grossing movie after Despicable Me was inception. I just thought that was funn.
Oh wow, I think.
And also the minions have been you know, dominant for you know, over ten years, going on fifteen years now, so it's it's time for a challenger to enter the ring. Certainly not gonna be Secret Life of motherfucking Pets, I'll tell you that much boo toy story for dogs. Try harder.
Yeah. Well, anyway, okay, so you what's your history for Shrek four. I had never seen it before. This was the only Shrek installment that I well, not including I haven't seen the first Puss and Boots movie. I famously love Puss and Boots the Last Wish, which came out in late twenty twenty two.
I finally saw it a couple of weeks ago. It's great.
Do you think, isn't it so good? It's really good, and it's beautiful. It's so well animated. Yeah, Visually it's amazing, Narratively it's amazing. Thematically, it's amazing. I love that movie. Anyway, I had never seen Shrek four because yeah, by the time time twenty ten rolled around, I think I did have Shrek fatigue, and yeah, I just wasn't we were suffering enthusiastic about it anymore. So I didn't see it. So yeah, that's my short history with Shrek Forever after.
But you saw it in theaters?
Yes, I did, and I have nothing else to say.
Cool cool, cool, All right, Well, Shelby dive deeper into it and do the recap.
Oh I guess I should say I also did not like this movie when it came out. In my opinion has not been unfortunately, you know, time has not healed that wound for me. I still don't like it.
I see for me. The ranking goes as follows Shrek two number one, Shrek one number two, Shruk four number three, and then Shrek three number four. Wow, amazing, I'm going to and.
Thret four, three and four are both so storid. Yeah, they might be tied for last because I kind of forgot about the whole the justin Timberlake of it all that was really challenging. But I also hate, like, I just feel like rumpel Stiltskin should just be far Quad again. Why are we? Why are we doing rumpel Stiltskin. Can't we just like give far Quad a magic wand like I feel like it's the same.
Character Yeah, I'm just fatigued. It's annoying. Should I say what the movie is about?
Let's do it.
Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back for the recap. We're back, all right? Here is this Shrek Forever?
After buckle In.
The movie opens on the standard Shrek storybook opening, explaining that Fiona's parents, the King and Queen, had locked Fiona in a tower guarded by a dress, but as time wore on and her curse still hadn't been broken, they had to resort to desperate measures. So we cut to the King and Queen approaching rumpel stilt Skin, voiced by what's his name again, Walt Dorn.
I feel so bad, but I'm like, who is this bad? It? I mean, I guess, I guess it's kind of a double standard because you're like, oh, who voices the minions? Pierre Colfet, That's who. But he also is like some random guy in animation. But he's not some random guy and animation anymore. I mean, fortunately, Walt Dorn still some random guy and animation where Pierre Coffin has transcended and is the voice of every minion.
Wow. Amazing.
Anyways, random guy don't know, Okay.
So they approach rumpel Stiltskin to see if he can put an end to Fiona's curse that turns her into an ogre at night, and rumpel Stiltskin's like, yeah, I'll do it, and in exchange, you have to sign away the kingdom far far away.
These damn parents are just terrific. Maybe it's maybe it's like commentary or something, but they just, like in each and every movie, they mismanage and gamble their people's lives away because they're embarrassed of their daughter's physical appearance.
It's so bad, yep, okay. So they are about to sign away their kingdom in exchange for like Fiona's curse to be lifted, but just then someone comes in to be like Princess Fiona has been saved parentheses by Shrek, and this makes Rumpelstiltskin furious because he wants control over far far away. We then cut to Shrek in his swamp. He and Fiona are raising their three ogre babies.
As promised at the end of Shrek the Third. Can I just say and let me know if this is at a pocket? I hate looking at those damn Ogre babies. They look like shit. They're so oh I hate they make me sick to look they look like adults.
It's upsetting. I don't like them either.
The least you can do when you're making animated anything is ensure that you can make a baby version of your character. That's cute. That's the Muppet baby law. Like, it's not that hard. I don't think that it would have been impossible to make a cute Shrek baby or a cute The fact that the Donkey dragon babies also look like shit scary. That's a slam dunk. That's so cute. But they fuck it up, they fake time it up.
I don't know what.
I don't know what they're doing, but I know what they aren't doing.
Uh. We see Shrek and Fiona. Of course Donkey and Puss and Boots are also there. But the monotony and repetitiveness of life is really getting to Shrek. Also, people aren't scared of Ogres the way they used to be. They're not scared of Shrek anymore, which is abundantly clear when they go too far far away for Shrek and Fiona's kids birthday party.
There's a lot to be said about this whole, like Shrek is fatigued of being a parent, while we're led to believe Fiona it just comes naturally to her. We'll talk about that. Yeah, but can I just say the little kid who says dude, they roar, uh huh. I was laughing.
See, I hated him.
Every time he said it, I was laughing.
I hate Wow.
That was the one laugh this movie got out of me. And then when Shrek roars he says, I love you daddy, I was laughing.
I think this movie got zero laughs out of me. Every joke Wow falls flat on its face.
It's ivan. The movie sucks ass, but I liked with the kids. I love your daddy, yuck. Fair enough, fair enough. I only have an undergrad so yeah, it's just I have simple taste.
It's okay, It's okay. So anyway, the party goes horribly wrong and no one is taking Shrek seriously, and he's like, ugh, I wish things would just go back to the way they were when I could do everything I wanted, whenever I wanted. And Fiona is like, okay, ungrateful much.
Yeah, you ungrateful piece of shit? You have every like and then she like lists out everything that's going well with his life. I'm like, damn, I'm jealous of Shrek. He really does have it all.
He's he's got a lot that you would think he would be grateful for, but he's not. And so they both storm off in different directions. And then who does Shrek bump into? Who had overheard this whole conversation. It's Rumpel still skined, and he's like and.
His big old goose. Which did you grow up with the story of rumpel Stiltskin. I don't know what the fuck his whole deal is.
I do, yes, I did grow up with that story. I don't remember him having a goose, but I do know this story, all.
Right, I'll take it to Google. Does Rumpel stelt skin?
Oh?
I guess he was a character on Once upon a Time. This is the point where someone in our is like, someone hits our Apple podcast reviews are like, Jamie didn't do enough research to even know if rumpel Stiltskin has canonically has a goose. I'm not seeing goose. I'm not seeing goose. I am seeing a page for Fifi the Goose on Wiki Shrek.
Okay, so it seems like it's only canon to Shrek.
Lore, a Shrek innovation. Yeah wow.
Also, we did this last time too for Shrek the Third, but we still haven't said the word Shrekian yet.
I mean give it time.
I mean, yeah, it'll come up organically, right, It's okay. So Rumpelstiltskin is like, hey, Shrek, I will make a deal with you that will let you be the ogre that you used to be, you know, like feared. You can do that for a day in exchange for just any other day in your life. So Shrek would just have to like give up a day from his past, and it could be like a day when he was a baby that he wouldn't even remember. So he's like,
sounds like a great deal to me. So Shrek signs this contract with Rumpelstiltskin, and as soon as he does, he is transported to this reality where sure enough everyone fears him, and Shrek is loving it at first, but then he goes to his swamp, but it's all dried up and abandoned, and he's like, what's going on? What's happening here? Then he is attacked and captured by a group of witches and the next Shrek knows he's in a carriage that's being pulled by Donkey, but Donkey does
not recognize him. And this is where you start to realize that this movie and It's a Wonderful Life have basically the same plot.
YEP, because it's like, why is this movie coming out in May? I honestly feel like if this movie was just like more transparent about what it's obviously doing, I just released it as like cause there were Shrek Christmas specials, Yeah, I feel like I'd be less annoyed with it if they just were like, this is like, it's a wonderful Shrek.
You're like, sure, fine, I don't know why I would be less I like, but it's trying to like pass itself off as I don't know, I just like just say it's a wonderful Shrek or.
It's a Shrekian life. It's true, and there you go.
It's a shreky in text, it is everything about.
That anyway, Shrek is in this alternate reality where he never met Donkey, where far far Away is in shambles, and they.
Also imply that if Shrek didn't break this stigma against Ogres, that the Ogres would be extremely oppressed. Like without Shrek, the ogres are like a severe underclass in society to the point where they have to revolt. I'm just like, I just don't give Shrek that much credit, no right, And I think that that's fine, you know, like you but it's like he's one guy, you know, he's one unremarkable guy. That's kind of his whole thing. Yeah, what right? Anyways, I agree.
Anyway, all these things are different and we'll come to find out more soon. But the witches who are rumbel Stiltskin's minions, okay.
Okay, they're trying trying to be but it's too late. It's too late.
So they take Shrek to Rumbelstiltskin's palace and he is delighted to see Shrek because he's the one who made this all possible. Because the day that Rumpelstiltskin took from Shrek was the day that he was born, which means Shrek never even existed, which means he never rescued or even met Fiona. It means that when this day comes to an end, Shrek will cease to exist.
And he'll like explode into light. Which seemed so dramatic.
My stakes are high.
Yeah. I and this is you know, spoiler alert for this eighty minute movie. This episode will be longer than the movie. But I think that it was quite bold in a living in twenty twenty four. Now, let's say, in a world where all children's movies are too cowardly to murder their protagonist in the fourth installment, I think it's shocked. I think it is rather shocking that we do see Shrek fully die. I mean only for like two minutes, but you're still damn they killed Shrek. I
killed his ass, they got his ass. Loved that.
Yeah. So anyway, Shrek never existing also means that Rumpel's Stiltskin was able to seize control of Far Far Away, which is why he wanted this whole thing to happen, which is why he made this deal with Shrek, etc. So Rumpel Stiltskin finally has what he wants, so Shrek
grabs Donkey and they escape from the palace. Shrek gets Donkey to trust him, and then Donkey tells him about the secret exit clause to the contract that Shrek had signed, and the way to render this contract null and void is for Shrek to have true Love's kiss and then we're like, okay, wait a minute, exit clause Santa Claus three, the escape clause.
This is a Christmas movie. I kept writing that down like another Christmas thing. There's a Santa Claus in the Just why did this movie come out in May?
Yeah? Not sure?
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, So Shrek is like, okay, I have to go find Truelove's kiss with Fiona. He realizes that if he never rescued her from the dragon guarded tower, she must still be there. But when he goes to the tower, she's not there. So he's like, okay, well, if I didn't save her, then who did?
Because he cannot conceive of a world in which Fiona could escape the tower on her own.
Well, neither could the first Shrek movie, So I know he's a flaw. He's okay. So Shrek and Donkey continue their search for Fiona, and they stumble upon an Ogre community. There this resistance group who is fire against Rumpelstiltskin and his oppressive regime, and their leader is Fiona.
Ooh, and it's a great reveal shot. It is, yes and really brings out I'm certain we've talked about this in past episodes. Really brings out how weak Cameron Diaz's voice acting is, because we get this amazing reveal of Fiona and then Cameron Dia like, I love Camera Diaz, but like she's not a very strong voice actor and doesn't improve of her time, and so you get like this incredibly animated like Fiona's hair is whipping around, she's wearing this warrior off it, and then she's like, okay, guys,
let's okay, everyone, time to go into battle. And you're like, yea, yay.
I've always thought that Cameron Diaz was not well cast.
It's as roll right, which is challenging because it's like, I don't it's in that way inadvertently because of how these movies are structured. You were coming down on basically the only woman who's meaningfully in the movie. But uh, but also we've been shielding her for years. I just have to say, how I feel that's fair. Okay, guys, let's go into battle. You're like, oh my god, oh my god.
Anyway, so we get this revealed that Fiona is the leader of this revolution, and of course she does not know Shrek because they have never met in this alternate reality. So Shrek tries to woo Fiona, but she's too busy planning an attack on rumpel Stiltskin and his witches that night. Also, we learn that Puss and Boots is her pet cat, although he's not the you know, fierce assassin we know him to be anymore. He's a quote unquote lazy house cat.
And we'll talk more about the implications and choices that were made with this character. Anyway, So Shrek is trying to win Fiona over, and so he goes to her and they start this kind of like play fighting thing and they're vibing, but still no kiss. Meanwhile, Rumpelstiltskin wants to find Shrek to prevent him from kissing Fiona because he doesn't want this contract to be nullified because it would mean the end of his empire. So he hires a bounty hunter to find Shrek, who turns out to
be the Pied Piper. And this is when I was like, Okay, why would you interro just have Puss in Boots, Yeah, be the assassin that gets hired, bring that thing back in that makes more sense, And then it's baffling. Yeah, it would be maybe too similar to the plot of Shrek too. But that's a callback that would make sense where then Shrek would have to like, you know, do something similar to like get Pussing Boots on his side and just like why why why is Pied Piper here?
Like worst I did fill in minion I've ever seen.
I didn't, especially in a year where we're being introduced to the minions and Shrek's bringing who to the tape like no wonder, no wonder you were dethroned king, No, but I agree with you. I hadn't thought of it. That's that's a really smart fix for that too, And a far more logical use of puss in Boots character because he really is like he's used as a fat shaming site gag basically, and then he kind of like
doesn't do anything the whole movie. He uterly does nothing to the point where it's like egregious and at one point I left because they're just trying to justify his presence, so which is like, also, if you're paying Antonio banderis, please use him like it's wired either way. But there's like at one point where Shrek and Fiona spoiler like they have to fall bug in love, and there's a point where they're like they're vibing, and then it just cuts to Puss and Boots and he's like wow, You're like,
why is he here? He's just like wow.
Sense anyway, So the assassin for some reason or the bounty hunter is the Pied Piper, and then when the Ogres launched their attack against rumpel Stiltskin, it's actually a trap laid by the Pied Piper, and then he plays his flute and it like forces them to dance, and that's how he bounty hunts them question marks. Exhausting, but Shrek and Fiona manage to get away m hmm. So
they're like on the run. And also he's trying to prove to her that he is her true love and that he knows a bunch of stuff about her.
Including well and he's also like, what if I forcibly kissed you with that convinced you huh?
He does that many many times. It's disgusting. But he's like, look, I know all this stuff about you, including your curse where you're human during the day, and he's like, so kiss me, and she does basically just to I think, get him to shut up and leave her alone. Yeah, but the kiss doesn't change anything because.
Because why would it. She's a revolution. Yeah, I just hate that, Like, I mean it's complicated to the extent that you know, like without Shrek's presence in this world, right, Like the Shreks are oppressed. That's bad. However, it's also presented that it's equally bad that Fiona is the leader
of a revolution, which is not bad. That's like a fun like it's it's so weird how Fiona is characterized over the years, where it's like she it just feels like antiquated, even for the two thousands to be like, well, she would be much happier if she was just the mother of newborn triplets than if she were the you know, like warrior goddess of the Shreks, right, I don't I feel like we can split the difference there a little or not, you know.
Like it's just it's the same kind of like empty feminism that we've seen throughout the entire franchise, where like there will be moments where like Fiona gets one little scene where she does something that vaguely seems empowering, but when you actually look at it closely, it's a very hollow gesture or it has weird implications. The same thing's happening here.
The same thing's happening, and she.
At this time does not love Shrek, so when she kisses him, it doesn't break the contract with ruppel Stiltskin.
And I thought, I because I of course I didn't remember what happened in this movie, fully because I was busy doing what pegot. But like I sort of was like, far be it for me to think this Shrek. I feel like this happens in every Shrek movie, where it's like they have an opportunity to do something cool and interesting and then they're like, nah, we're not gonna, We're not gonna. You're like, okay, sorry, never mind.
Yeah they don't. Sorry for having any expectations.
Go God, sorry for thinking that the franchise could grow.
Ugh yeah right anyway, So rumpel Stiltskin, desperate to stop Shrek, and Fiona puts out a call basically saying that whoever brings them in rumpel Stiltskin will grant them any wish they desire. So Shrek realizes he can use this to his advantage, and he turns himself in in exchange for freeing all of the ogres that the Pied Piper had captured, except rumpel Stiltskin refuses to release Fiona since she's only
half ogre. So now she and Shrek are captured together and Rumpelstiltskin unleashes dragon on them, but they work together to best the dragon and defeat Rumpel still skin, but.
Then Shrek dies so abrupt too.
Yes, because it's dawn, which means Shrek's time is up, and he starts to fade away, which I.
Kind of forgot was gonna happen.
Yeah, yeah, and she kisses him, but he disappears, but just kidding. The kiss worked, and this alternate reality vanishes. We're transported back to Shrek's children's birthday party and Shrek is like, wow, Fiona, I love you, babe. I always thought it was me who rescued you from the dragons Keep, but really it was you who rescued me the enda and you're just like and then a smash Mouth cover starts.
Weezer, that's Weezer. It's Weezer covering smash Mouth covering the monkeys. And at this point we're like, we got to retire Shrek for fifteen years. He's got go in the vault.
I think that they did talk about inception a song within a song within a song.
Wa wha, all right, let's take a break, will help her be right back? All right, and we're back.
Yeah.
As with all things Shrekian, uh, this movie did suck, But I do think that there is a fair amount to talk about, especially in regards to I just like if in Shrek five we could like get an arc for Fiona, that's like we're saying on par with Shrek two and let's say better because we have the benefit of fifteen years, right, But Shrek four sucks for fiot.
It's so weird because it and speaking to the empty feminism, which I feel like is yeah, it's very very prevalent and again like best done in the earlier installments, not the later ones, which is depressing. But like the message of this movie for women is bad as you, but we see a lot of cool stuff, which is weird.
I feel like that there is like a sort of game of forty chess being played because you get to see Fiona in a position of power where she's respected and hyper competent, and like, I think the sequences where she's fighting and like leading is really cool. There is sort of I know that there's Jane Lynch's character is a woman coded Shrek, but outside of that, it appears that it's kind of a Smurfette situation like most of
the Shrek's overwhelmingly male, which is Minyon coded. I will say, true, but obviously not as effective if John Hamm is actually in Minion's one, so he's kind of double dipping when you think about it. And also, wait is he Yeah, he plays Sandra Bulls groovy husband in Minions and he's Minions one, not Despicable Me one, not Despicable Me. We're talking this spinoff franchise, I see the real moneymaker.
I don't think I've seen Minions one all the way through.
Oh my gosh, we should watch it on Christmas?
Okay, we should cover it on the podcast.
I would love to. I mean, I've seen it so many times, and not to mention Rise of Group, like, I mean.
I saw that one in the theaters and.
It's so cute. I love it. Yeah. Twenty tway four, it's a Minions year, thank god. Twenty twenty three were we were panting, starving, like what was gonna happen to us? Thankfully we're back. But but yeah, I mean, and good for John hann for sensing which way the wind was blowing. But in any case, I don't know, like Fiona is
in a position of huge power. We find out that she has liberated herself from the tower, which I think is cool and like, because this is all established, I almost wished at the end of Shrek four, instead of Shrek being pulled back to his normal reality where we've seen Fiona for two movies, now be pushed into these traditional roles, which, as we say, oh it like, we're not saying that these are bad roles to be in to want to be married or to be a parent,
but they are stereotypical roles that are you know whatever, you know what we're talking about. That's all we see Fiona do in these movies anymore. And I was really hoping that they went to some like third location where there could be some like I think that would have been cool, where they like went to an alternate reality where Fiona could have access to both of these, where she could be a warrior, because she's always been a
really like fighty character since the first movie. She's been a good fighter and like a world where she could you know, have both of these. I feel like that wouldn't be out of the question in this world. But instead Shrek is just sent back to the world where we've seen Fiona turned into a very like unchallenging wife and mother character, and Shrek is just like, Wow, I'm so grateful that you're like this, and you're like.
Ugh, right, no, yeah, no. This movie can't imagine a world and suggests that like, if you are, you know, a warrior and the leader of a revolution, you would not also be a parent like that. It's like you're one or the other. And if you are a parent, then you have to live this like hyper domesticated life and that goes for Fiona and Shrek, and that's why he tries to like escape. So, like I said, I went back and listened to our Shrek the third episode
and a big criticism, thank you. A big criticism we had about that movie was that it reinforces a gendered trope of like men and being very reluctant to become parents and women being hyper enthusiastic about becoming a parent. In this movie, we're already kind of touched on this, but it does something similar in the sense that we see Shrek growing increasingly bored, frustrated, disillusioned with domestic life of like, you know, taking care of his three babies.
He's tired of the monotony of it. But we do not see Fiona feeling this way, which reinforces a similar gendered trope of like, oh, well, women don't mind doing the same domestic tasks over and over. Women don't mind the monotony that might accompany that. Right, She's happily doing it, and she's never getting frustrated or bored because women just inherently love that kind of work. But men, well, of course they're going to get bored and yearn for something
more exciting. They're going to yearn for their days when they were a bachelor and they weren't, you know, like weighed down by this ball and chain. And of course their masculinity will feel threatened now that they have to stay at home and do domestic tasks and take care of a family.
Which is like exacerbated by the fact that the movie doesn't even bother to like add the trophy layer to make it seem like Shrek has a job, like he does it, he does it. They're both stay at home parents, but like and and also it's like I think that these are easy as I know that we've talked about this in others Trek installments. There's easy small effixes that
allow Fiona to participate more fully in the plot. If they're both burned out as new parents, that totally changes the dynamic of that because you're like, yeah, parents of newborn triplets that are being like surveilled by the far far away paparazzi or whatever. That would be exhausting for both of them, But she is shielded by mother powers that like don't just add on these tropes but like
fundamentally exclude her from the plot. Like there's maybe I mean it was still suck because it's like Shrek four, but like there's a version of this where they could go through this journey together and see the alternate version of reality of like what if both of them didn't exist and if Fiona doesn't exist. Honestly, I'm more inclined to believe that Ogres would be more oppressed versus Shrek
because she is an Ogre who is a princess. Like that actually makes like, yeah, talking it out now, that makes a lot more sense that like Fiona has far more to do with like the you know, ogres are scary stigma being removed from that community than Shrek does because she came out as an ogre and everyone still loved her.
So, I mean, hello, end of Shrek one, it.
Was like an earth shattering moment.
It changed the world. Yeah, right, there's that. So there's a bunch of different things going on with Shrek one. He's frustrated with the monotony of domestic life. He's also ungrateful, you know, despite having, as Fiona points out, three beautiful children, a wife, a wife who loves him, friends who adore him.
He's just acting very ungrateful and unappreciative of it. And then on top of that, he doesn't like that people are no longer afraid of him, and he wants to go back to the good old days where people were afraid of ogres, when the world made sense. And I'm like, okay, maga vibe yikes.
Maga, maga before maga. Yeah, I mean it's super weird, Like I don't know, in the Shrek world. I'll let that slide where it's like, Okay, he misses what he was a scary oak, but I feel like that's just telegraphic, like I miss my bachelor days like you were saying earlier. But it's also like let Fiona in on that, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, he doesn't bother to openly communicate
any of these frustrations or these feelings with Fiona. He doesn't say anything like, Hey, I've been overwhelmed, I've been frustrated. Here are my needs that aren't being met? Like can we work on this together to like try to figure out a solution. And also, hey, Fiona, how are you feeling?
Is any of this getting to you? Like they don't have any conversation like that, and Shrek is like famously bad at being inter relent, but it's like, why can't we just let his character grow a little because it gets exhausting and you would I mean, it's been nine years Shrek and again to come to Fiona's defense here, like it makes far more sense for her to be like shaken by this shift because she has you know, I forget how much time is canonically passed and Shrek won,
but like she has gone through far more big changes in her life in the last several Shrek years than Shrek. She was still she's still got tower PTSD. She and then she's like coming out as an ogre, which is a huge deal in this world, right, the whole Shrek two of it all. Like she is married now, she's
living in a swamp. She's had three kids. Like there it again, her life has changed more and unfortunate not to be like I feel like I'm starting to sound like a royalist, but like her just because of who she is. Unfortunately, she's like Prince she I'll say it. She's the Princess Da far far away. She's the people's princess. And I feel like it's disrespectful for Shrek Prince Charles over here, not exactly, not exact and exact one to one, but he's a flop. He's not the most interesting character.
It's like disrespectful to even have Fiona voice by Cameron Diaz. I mean, but it's too late. It's twenty three years too late to fix that. So let's just give her something. Let's give her something and the kids look like shit.
Come on, I didn't we know that these animators can make something look cute because uh put some boots with his big eyes.
Yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, it felt very yeah, like it something fat. I mean, I guess you can't like overestimate the amount of cynicism that goes into a franchise like this, except for Dispicable to me, which is you know, pure. They would never do anything for me merchandising purvises, holding my vampire minion who watches me while I create content.
Okay, but but seriously, you guys, no, I feel like they they It's almost like advantageous for them to have these shots and sequences of Fiona as a warrior because of it, and then they can put it in the trailer and be like, oh, se Fiona.
But then the status quo is always re established, as it is with in a time and time again. And then also, I mean all those yucky things that we touched on during the recap where Shrek is so convinced that like all he has to do is give her a kiss, he doesn't have to grow as a person, which he I would say, arguably doesn't in this movie really at all. Right, Okay, well, I guess he learns to be grateful for his wife, but like does he I don't know.
See, That's what I was trying to figure out. So instead of him, you know, trying to have an open and honest conversation about his feelings with Fiona. Instead, he storms off and then makes a deal with the first sleazy guy he finds, which ends up having these dire consequences.
So the rest of the plot is him having to like fix this situation, and the lesson he ends up quote unquote learning is, oh, I didn't know what I had until it was gone, and I should learn to appreciate the love I share with my family and friends.
And sure that's a valid lesson to learn, but I'm trying to, Like, I guess they just have mixed feelings about stories like this where a man has to learn emotional intelligence or a man you know, has to have this emotional redemption arc because on one hand, I'm very for men learning and growing emotionally, but sure women are rarely given arcs like this in stories because women are expected to already have this emotional intelligence because of a
you know, gendered expectation that women are nurturing and tuned into their feelings and things like that, whereas men it's just like, well, of course they're gonna start out being you know, not very emotionally intelligent and they have to learn these things, and they kind of barely learn them, and it takes this whole epic saga for them to figure these things out. And then I'm right, does he even learn it? Because at the end he doesn't apologize to Fiona when he's like back at the party. He
doesn't like say, wow, I've been acting horribly. He just says like, it was actually you who rescued me, which is I feel like what people say to the like the pets that they adopt.
Yes, yes, I was like you talk her to her like she's a damn dog, like oh my god. Yeah.
Then yeah, he doesn't apologize and say like, hey, sorry for being an ungrateful little shit. He's just like you rescued me.
And I just feel like.
It's very a very like oversimplified version.
It's a freaking mess. It's a freaking mess. It's a disaster, it's a catastrophe. It stinks. It's gotta go, like.
Right, And then with Fiona like okay, yes, this is an alternate reality where Shrek never saved her, so she saved herself from the dragon guarded tower, which again is like something that the movie Shrek won couldn't even conceive.
Of and shocking.
Why don't we get a flashback of like her saving herself showing how she did that. Maybe it informs why she becomes such an effective leader of a revolution. You know, there's like again, it's just like this empty well of course she's the leader. Now why well you don't have to know about that. It just happened. It just glasses over everything.
It stinks. It stinks. Yeah, I mean I totally agree. Where it's like the things that this movie makes narrative space for acting as if it only has eighty minutes to exist or it'll die, Like it's yeah, and this, And I know we've talked about this before, but I was reminded of it again in this installment of Shrek. That Fiona and Dragon, that is the dragon that guarded her tower for over a decade. And why do these
two characters not have a relationship at all? Like it could even be contentious, it would make sense, but it's so weird, like because they introduce Dragon in the alternate reality at the end, but it's only so that Donkey and Dragon can fall in love again. But the way that it's like these are the two characters of the four of the two married couples, Fiona and Dragon have known each other for the longest, but they have no relationship. They act like, oh, our husbands are friends, so I
guess we hang out. I'm like, this dragon was going to kill you for ten years, like, how do you have no feelings on? Like? And I think that that could also it would. It feels very Shrekian there it is. It feels very Shrekian to put two characters that were like at severe odds. They'd be like, oh, we get Martini is now we hang out blah blah blah, like whatever it is established some sort of relationship like why, I don't know. I feel like the franchise thinks so
little of the two women. And also Dragon can't talk great. But the two women who you see most frequently, which are Fiona and Dragon, they have the longest relationship and they're like, eh, no one cares, well, not true, we care.
Also, why can't drag I mean basically every other dragon tall. We got Puss and Boots. He's talking. We got the three little pigs, they're always talking. We got the wolf. The wolf is talking. We got a sentient gingerbread man who gets eaten because of the thing we were hinting at as far as like Puss and Boots, he's now a fat character, and the movie takes every opportunity to make very like fat shamy jokes, which is.
Very in step with what the franchise is always in, as well as the no homo like vampire oh ye kissy joke at the like it's all just like bluff and you already suggested a far better utility of that carriac.
Of Puss and Boots.
Yeah, of pus, Pus, there's so many better uses of Puss.
Here's how you use puss.
I have a master's degree, and I know how to use Puss in this movie.
And well, since you mentioned that like queer phobic vampire thing, that's just like a fleeting moment in a quick scene where the King and Queen are riding their carriage through what seems to be coded as like a medieval trailer park, and all of the people there are made to seem like weird and scary, and it's just like this a very obviously like classist like, yeah, oh, if you live in a trailer park, you're a freaking weirdo.
Which is weird because like this movie is all all over the map with that too, because the Shreks are presented as an underclass that are like staging a revolution and are to be rooted for this Like this movie can't even decide how they feel about Green, Like they can't even decide what they feel about Green, because we also have true the witches as the they work for rumbel stilts Can. Again, I don't know, rumpel stilts Can
Lore please come for me. I guess, Like, God, I'm so tired, but like, I don't get I mean, And we've talked extensively on other episodes about a lot of
the stereotyping that exists around witches. There's a lot of heavy stereotyping around older women and also a lot of antisemitic tropes that come up in the animation style, which is which I think is not challenged in this movie whatsoever, for sure, And even outside of that, you're just like, why do the witches work for rumpel stilt Skit Like it's really, I don't know, it's a mess.
I don't know it they just the Shrek writers and director aka Mess. Movie was written by Josh Klausner and Darren Lemkey and directed by Mike Mitchell. Uh, they just kind of do whatever the hell they want.
It's so funny because it was like directed by Mike Mitchell. I was like, Wow, I loved I love Doe Boys so much.
Boys.
Wow, Mitch, what a what a even even bigger multi hyphen it that we imagine different Mike Mitchell. But in my mind, Mitch directed Shrek Forever After. He also directed all of the other Mike Mitchell movies. Can I rattle them off?
Please?
My buddy? Mitch also directed Sky High, Deuce, Bigelow, Mail, Chick, Alvin and the Chipmunks, chip Wrecked, whoa Trolls? Okay, He's killing it, Lego Movie two, and Kung Fu Panda four or so. Yeah, if you're a fan of the Dope Boys, guess what, there's more where that came from and it's four incredible.
Hmmm. Do you have anything else that you want to talk about? Because I've pretty much come to the end of my notes.
Let's see, let's see. Uh, well, I guess I just wanted to get back to Rumpelstiltskin and I think, just even from writing perspective, is a really really weak character, like a stinky character that felt like a retread of far Quad. For I was like, could they not get the original voice actor of far Quad back? Like, oh sorry, I put some respect on his name. I just thought, like a really weak villain. For the third and the fourth.
Also has nothing to do with the Rumpelstiltskin narrative, which is all about like, I will give you whatever you want if you're able to guess my name, and if not, I'm going to steal all your babies away from you. That's the lore of Rumpelstiltskin. And then none of that appears except for like him making shady deals.
I guess see the babies technically disappear. I guess it's a no. I mean that's me giving it too much credit.
That's a stretch.
Yeah, I just I think it's weird that this movie ultimately comes down and Fiona would be like clearly establishes Fiona would be cooler if she hadn't met Shrek.
True, I mean that is true, like.
Objectively and also taking it like again, just there's so many more interesting ways for this movie to go because if we know now in twenty ten, something that seemed obvious, right, but like that Fiona eventually would have escaped the tower on her own. I think that that should send Shrek into more of a crisis than it does. Like, yeah, I think it's interesting. I had this written down as well, where it's like, if I I, as Shrek.
Saw that Fiona would have h comma Shrek, unlike Ikmma tana Ikamma Frankenstein.
Two of my favorite movies. If I Shrek found out that Fionda would have escaped the tower on her own and become a revolutionary leader if she had never met me, I would be like, hold on, maybe, like I would have the kind of crisis where it's like, wow, maybe I really don't matter, Like there's a whole like I mean, and I know that that's complicated by the fact that, for some reason, without Shrek, the Shreks are more marginalized
then they would. They seem to be like exploited for like it seems like they're being used as slaves to Ruympel still looking too, which is a disaster.
He seems to specifically target and capture Shreks and enslave them. I don't understand, but this is the first time we're even ever learning about other Shreks in this world because Aside from Fiona, there are no other Ogres until the fourth movie, and then suddenly there's a whole community of which begs the question where have these other Shreks been.
Which is actually a really scary image to see. Like You're just like, oh, I feel like I'm having a nightmare.
It's jarring.
Yeah, And I just honestly, I don't think that this franchise is equipped to deal with the topic of slavery. I will bravely say that, And I don't think that they should have tried. I guess, like it's that plot point made me very uncomfortable. And also to suggest that without Shrek there would be many more Shreks, but they would be enslaved. You're like, I'd hate this. I hate every second of this, Like this is a really, really brutal tangle to put into this story that they are
not able to write themselves out of. It's a disaster. That's bad. But then on the other hand, I did like how the Shreks as a community were characterized, where they were stage a revolution. They call Shrek a I think John Aham Shrek calls regular a comrade in arms. You're like, that's kind of fun. They're like preparing to take down their oppressors. It's kind of like, woahoo, this is cool. And you know, alternate reality, Fiona is very active.
She is planning the revolution, right, Craig, I think it's Craig Robinson, Shrek has a chimney choga stand. You're like, wow, epic random Bacon Humor twenty ten whatever. But but like I I liked how like I just think again, it's interesting to establish like this canon of there's a whole Shrek community and they're essentially like revolutionaryas that are going to topple the overclass.
And that feed to be confused with the ogre class.
The ogre class topples the overclass. Whoa and this alternate university university sorry, this ALTI universe implies, in a way that is also under explored, that Fiona has abandoned the idea of monarchy like she in a way that she doesn't in the main franchise. She maintains a relationship with royalty.
She maintains like she is like a badass in not to I feel like that's over used, but like she's really really cool in this altered because she like rejects the monarchy she becomes an underground revolutionary and uses what she knows about the monarchy to get the Ogres into the palace into like tap like it's all really really cool again and then if you like think it through, which you're not supposed to, right, this is like lobotomy
brain filmmaking. But like that, Shrek is also totally fine meeting and connecting with this whole community of Ogres and just losing that why.
Yeah, I don't know Shrek. Once he does learn that, like you know, what Fiona could have done or what she's capable of if he wasn't involved in her life, and you would think the thought would cross his mind, like wow, maybe I've been holding her back. So when he does show up again in like Shrek Prime reality,
he needs to be like miss Shrek. I feel like he needs to be like, hey, babe, like let me help you see your full potential here You're like, you know, like is there anything else you want to be doing with your life? Like right, I don't know, it's just.
Where at that point, Like but at this point, it's like it's not even clear at the end of the movie if he's ever going to tell her that this happened.
Probably not, I would say, maybe he's not, which is so scary. It's like the end of what was that movie we recently covered, Ruby sparks yes, yes, or like at the end he's like, I'm not gonna tell her that I was freaking creep.
You're like, this absolutely sucks. This stinks as truly.
The last thing I wanted to touch on was something that comes up a few different times throughout the movie is a discussion of Fiona being quote only half Ogre, and then at one point Shrek says something like, well, you're not a real ogre. You know, you spent half
of your life in a palace. And Fiona, I mean, I don't want to necessarily, you know, judge her for how she responds to this, but it's something that I feel like you could equate with, like a person in the real world having a dual identity in some way, for example, people who are mixed race, or people who are the child of immigrants and have two or more cultures that are a part of their identity, or just you know, like anyone who's gotten criticized for you know,
not being xyz enough, you know, when for example, again mixed race people are told, oh, you know, you're not black enough, or you're not Asian enough, or you know, whatever the case may be, basically being told like you're not one thing or the other, so you don't belong in either space. I think that would be an interesting Not that I think the Shrek movies are capable of exploring this any further, but it does get brought up.
Well any any more than the Harry Potter universe was equipped to explore that through Hermion's character. True, I feel like you have a very similar I mean not to bring up Harry Potter, but like, I think it's a similar plot point brought up in the same era that also kind of like was always trying to start that but then never quite you know, did.
Doesn't know how to actually like, yeah, have a character deal with this. Shrek says something like really cruel to her. He says, you're not a real Ogre. He's saying this to her as she is like an Ogre.
Running the Ogre Revolution, and what are you talking about, you fucking asshole.
I just it would have again, it would have been cool if that could have been explored more thoughtfully and thoroughly, and if we saw like how people saying that to her makes Fiona feel because like this is something that like Fiona would likely struggle with or deal with or you know, like have feelings about, but we barely see that.
And also for her own husband to have such a callous way of speaking with her about it, for sure, which feels like a step back from what we hear in the first Shrek movie where he is like, that's part of why she falls for him is because he is accepting of who she is in all parts of who she is. But then like they have a couple of kids, and he's like, you're not a real ogre. I mean I think that, yeah, these I that it does seem like being mixed race is the clear implication
that's being made through Fiona's character. But you're right, like it's I can see, you know, especially in a media property this broad that it could be you know, used for viewers to connect who are coming from a lot of different points of marginalization, and it just basically says like no, Shrek says you gotta pick a lane, and you're like, that doesn't make any fucking sense, And it also just like doesn't even make sense with who we know this character to be, which is why they had
to retire him for fifteen years so he could really think about what he said. Yeah, another another big missed opportunity. The last thing I wanted to say.
Is between Shrek the Third and Shrek Forever after another Shrek property came out in two thousand and eight and it was on Broadway.
And it was called Shrek the Musical, right, and I am very intimately familiar with this musical. I didn't get to see it on Broadway, unfortunately, but I have seen several local productions of it. I've seen it seven times, oh my god. And I've also watched it a lot. There's a professional Broadway recording of it that exists on I don't know where it's currently streaming. Generally, with the other Shreks, it is really difficult to watch Broadway great.
Brian Darcy James, who is a decorated Broadway veteran, play Shrek beside Sutton Foster, another like Broadway legend playing Fiona, and you're just like, what am I watching? And how much money must they have been paid? I hope right? As well as another Daniel Breaker plays Donkey extra like John Tartaglia won a Tony for playing Pinocchio. You're just like, this is a nightmare, this is disaster, right, But I
do love it. I think it is. It's an adaptation of Shrek one that I think honestly worked better than Shrek one. I think it has more emotional punch it gives Shrek. I think so. I just I was thinking about that because this I think opened and closed on Broadway between the third and the fourth movie. But it does add to Shrek lore. I don't know. You know, if we're talking to the Shrek team and we say, is Shrek the musical on Broadway canonical to the Shrek universe,
I think they would say, I don't care. But in a world where they did care, we would have a little bit of context for Shrek that includes, I think mainly the thrust of it explains why he got mean. It implies that he was thrown out by his parents, right. I remember that he was when he was very young, because that's Ogre tradition, is like to harden yourself to
the world in the Ogre like fashion. You get tossed out by your parents when you're very young, and so that's how you become like a hardened Ogre right, and again it's just like, Wow, we have this incredible lore going into Shrek the fourth Edit's like the Broadway musical that won Tony's somehow, by the way, it won one. It won Best Costume Design. Sorry John Tartaglia didn't win a Tony for that, but you know, it won a couple drama desks as well. It was nominated for a Grammy.
I'm just saying it got more than it should have. I mean, certainly, it just makes me really sad to think of like an actor as good as Brian Darcy James having to get into Shrek makeup every day for eight shows a week. That just seems like a horrible way to have to live. I think about that sometimes. Anyways, I just wanted to mention that there was a I think probably my favorite Shrek thing is Shrek the Musical
because also the music is like good. It's like I I think so, I mean, I have a nostalgic attachment to it because I've seen it seven times and like many things Shrek, you know, started as a joke became real over time. But like, the music is good. I would recommend if you're popping on the soundtrack Build a Wall is like a bon Jovi song. It's wild that Shrek is singing, and also its pre Trump like it.
You know, harder to listen to the song build a Wall, but he meant he means an emotional wall to keep out pain and hurt. That's another good one. Don't Let Me Go is Donkey's song when he's trying to be Shrek's friend. Iconic song I Know It's Today, A great song for Fiona. Oh god, it's just all I'll admit, it's all good. Yeah. So I would say my review of Shrek four is watch Shrek.
The musical, okay, And my review of Shrek four is watch Puss in Boots the Last Wish.
Hell yeah, incredible? Okay. So we know that this movie passes the Shrek Doel test, Yes, but does it pass the Bechdel test? Well, no, Let's start the year twenty twenty four out on a hard and clear No. The witches talk to each other, but it's only about Shrek, and I don't know if we're really given. They're credited with names, but I don't remember learning them canonically.
Yeah, they don't address each other by name. No, And yeah, they're talking about Shrek, and Fiona doesn't talk to any other women.
She does. She talks to I think Jane Lynch Shrek, gretched. She talks to Gretchen, good name, gret pretty awesome, but gretched, I don't believe responds she's making a military plan and they are like the dual smurfets of the town. Also, there is one joke at Gretchen's expense where it's implied in this Smurf like Ogre kingdom that everyone has the
hots for Fiona but she doesn't. Oh, that is one thing that we didn't get to that even in the world where Fiona is a revolutionary leader, she still can't have it all. Like she has to choose being a war which is which is fundamentally what this movie comes down to. You have to choose having a relationship with a family or being a revolutionary leader and never the
Twain shall meet. But they're in a conversation like that I forget where they're like, oh, you know, nothing will convince Fiona to be in a relationship because blah blah blah blah blah, and Gratch It's like it would convince me, and everyone's like, eh, we're not attracted to you and you're like, okay, anyways, it doesn't pass the backdel test. But what about uh, let's get it coming hot. First nipple scale of the year, Caitlin get pumps?
All right? Zero do.
Do do?
Do?
Do? Do? Do do do?
Okay, so on our scale of zero to five nipples, where we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional an interstrectional yes, lens, I would say, I'm going to give this a half nipple. As much as I enjoy seeing the very you know, fleeting moments of Fiona as a revolutionary leader, as a warrior, it's surrounded by a bunch of other gender tropy implications and just all the fat phobia around the puss and boots character. And at the end of the day, this is a story about
like a man learning an emotional lesson. He's learning to be more emotionally intelligent and grateful, but also what does he learn. He doesn't learn to communicate any more effectively and open up emotionally to his partner. He learns that he needs to be grateful. But if you have to like have your entire life stripped away from you to learn that lesson, I don't know. Try harder go to therapy, like you need to learn gratitude wells.
And also just as as a Shrek fan demonstrates, I think a real I just realize the sentence I'm about to say demonstrates are real stagnancy and the character development of Shrek. Yeah, you're just like We've had four movies. Shrek should be past this stuff now. He's been working through this ship for the whole franchise.
My goodness. Yeah, he's very static. He never seems to learn or change, and he gets himself into the same high jinks for the same reasons over and over again, for Christe's sake. So it's annoying and I will give I'll give my half nipple. I mean, I'm inclined to give it to Fiona.
Yeah, the alternate universe Fiona.
Alternate universe Fiona.
I think I'm gonna give this movie no nipples. I was so disappointed. I've been disappointed in this movie for almost fourteen years now, and I don't think I have any nipples to give this time. I feel like, yeah, this is like a I think. And also because I I did like, it's a wonderful life, far better than I like Shrek. Forever After. But I feel like it's not an identical but a similar plot and takeaway that like is like worse or at least equally considerate of
its woman character almost seventy years later. It's such a bummer, right, so I simply have no nipples to give it this time. I can't give it any like well it was of the time, like it wasn't. And I would love to see Shrek five written by not two Like, guys, what if that happened?
We should write Shrek five.
I can't.
I can't handle the pressure. It's too much, at least in Shrek Forever After. When we see alternate reality Fiona, she isn't a quote unquote old spinster librarian that's true, is a loser because Shrek never married her. She's a winner. It's awesome.
That's the one improvement that we've made in seventy years. It's not enough. Yeah, no, no nipples from Jamie. And with that, twenty twenty four is off to the traces.
We're Shrek the hall. We've shreked the halls and now and now we're off to the traces.
I also just say, okay, last I just think it's really funny and no offense to the Felicies of the world. But I think it was such an underwhelming line to be like, I've always wanted a daughter named Felicia, and you're like, okay, wow, why.
All of our Felicia listeners just unsubscribed.
I just it's such a like. No, I mean, I would it would be weird if they said either of our names. You're like, that's a pretty normal, like, that's really.
I've always wanted a baby Shrek named Caitlin.
I don't know. Anyways, Happy twenty twenty four. We're rigging it in as always, and again, just another reminder if you want to check out our tour tickets, that's on our link tree, which is linked in the description of this that's San Francisco, Sacramento, d Austin, and San Diego coming up at the beginning of next month. And you can follow us in all the normal places on Instagram, and we still post on the platform formerly known as Twitter, so that's where you can find us.
Yes, and you can also subscribe to our Patreon aka maatreon, where we release two bonus episodes every month, plus you'll get access to the back catalog of one hundred and fifty ish bonus episodes, all for five dollars a month at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. This month is Dance December and we're covering Flash Dance and Save the Last Dance, So.
We're celebrating a little late this year. You'll forgive us.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I mean we never, I mean Portman July has been celebrated in every other month based.
You're damn right. And you can also get our birch at teapublic dot com slash Bechdel Cast. And again, if you're going to those tour shows, we will have tour exclusive merch at the meet and greet, so that'll be a blast. And we also have an exciting January plan for you, so stay tuned. Gang We love.
Yeah, Shreculator, sh reculator, Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit link Tree Slash Bechdel Cast