She's Gotta Have It (1986) with Kenice Mobley

you anyway, so it doesn't matter. Sorry, I'm dumping you on the bridge. I deserve it, honestly, who in this movie doesn't Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Drante, and welcome to our I don't know where that was going to our podcast. We're okay, so we are like there's a bit of a frenetic, exciting energy to the episode today be us and we'll let you in on the biggest secret that is allowed is we're recording together today, which it were

physically together with our guest. This has not happened in almost two years, and I'm truly like, I'm excited, and I also like it's like weird and different, I know, and we have such and we have such an like there's so much to talk about today too. On top, and we watched the movie together and our guests made was incredible dinner. Twice Caitlin got ice, scream, I got wine. That's just okay, And and we're here, we're together. I don't know, it's all very excited, truly. So what is

the podcast about. It is our podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, we use the Bechtel test as a inspiration, a jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion. And the Bechtel Test of worse is a media metric created by a queer cartoonist,

Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Beckdel Wallace test. It requires the version that we use that two characters of a marginalized gender have names, they speak to each other, and that conversation is about something other than a man, and ideally it is a meaningful, narratively relevant conversation. Right, um, And today, I mean I think we we uh, we have a movie that's been requested for many years. We're very excited to be covering it, and even more so

than the movie. We have a guest who is I mean, so amazing. But even as it pretends to this show record breaking guests shattering through through things, we didn't realize we're possible, I know. And we should be presenting her with a jacket that we promised a year ago. We had plenty of time to get this jacket, but we sucked up. It's because we actually contracted some moths to

make some silk for the jacket. And it's a supply chain issue and the moths are on strike and that's this whole thing, and we want to reach in equitable contract with them. Yeah, so it's all good. Jack us on the way, Like, where is this going? As soon as you said moths, moths make silk? Do they? Yeah, that's a spider thing. Oh my god. Wait I just started to be like, am I oh no worms silk world? No moths do they? They they'll just tear it up cheap wine. And now I think that moths make silk.

That's okay, Well, Kenneth, that's why we don't have a jacket, because I hired moth Yeah, Thatstmas and they're on strike. Yeah, because they're like, why are you asking us to do I can't And they're like, you need to be paying us more because we cannot physically do what you're asking. Wow, they've got a subcontract with the worms and that costs money. I'm gott in the middle of God and this is the life of a she e o and it's turns

out moths don't make silk um well. Recovering, recovering, She's gotta have it today six film Vice Spike Lee and we're bringing back the whole time. I really fumbled your intro, but Kaitlin, you have the correct I've god, yes, I've got all the details. She is a Vulture comic. You should know she's got some headlining shows coming up in February on the East Coast. You know her from our episodes on How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Casino Royale,

among others. It's Kenny smoably five timer, five time. I'm so excited you're back. Welcome to l A. By the way, do you I told you guys it was because sketches was rescheduled, but really it was because of this here to do this I love this pot, let's do it. We've really reached s to your podcast where we fly our guests out. We flying guests out and don't say that. People will request to be um excuse trip, Like, oh well no, but but we were so stoked they are here.

It's still I'm still like acclimating to be in the same room with other you know, it's like I have to look over here, and then I have to look over here. We were doing this for years, I know, and it and I've lost the skills, but we are covering. She's got to have it. We just watched it together two times in a row. We had a two course meal. Um, and here we are and we're doing great. All right, Denise, what is your history? I was like, how does this show here? But I'm too excited. I was like, wow,

I wonder what's going to happen. I shouldn't get us your your history, your relationship with this movie. So I saw this movie for the first time in college. I think I took my first film course junior year and we watched this And I'm beginning to think that the guy just had us watch movies that he liked. Because we watched this movie in the two thousand and five Pride and Prejudice and maybe like two other movies, and

I'm like, I don't understand what this class was. But we watched that movie and we talked about it and like in the history of like black and white New York movies, where we talked a little bit about what the Allen as well, and I was like, oh, wow, okay, well I like this more than that. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, nice Jamie. What about you? What's your relationship? I had

ever seen this movie. Um, I I knew it was like it was one of those I don't know, I have a very poor track record with watching oh toour movies. I get overwhelmed, and I feel like will bring so much to tours that they love that I I'm like,

you're probably right. And then I never watched the movie. Um, which is why, like I never watched a Wes Anderson movie before this show, Like I've seen very little, like all of the tours of this era, I hadn't seen and um, I've seen a number of Spike Lean movies now, but I hadn't seen this one. And so I saw it for the first time with you both, and I was really on board with it for a for a chunk and then and then and then it was like,

oh my god. Um, But there's I mean, I'm I generally like really enjoyed it, and I think it's like I mean, especially for like the way it was made too, It's just like kind of an unbelievable accomplishment. I'm excited to talk about it. Long story short, I hadn't seen it. Caitlin same, I've never seen this. Yeah, I had seen other Spike Lean movies, but this one, I don't know. It just never came across my desk. Your dask there, Yeah, Caitlin's desk. It's just full right now. Accurate. Yeah, thanks,

there's um. But yeah, I watched it for the first time a few days ago, doing knowing that we would watch this, and I just had to be extra prepared. But and then I started watching the series as well because this correct and I got like four episodes into that, and I have a little bit of like stuff to mention about the series at some point. But yeah, generally I enjoy this intellectual property, be it the movie or the TV series. But yeah, I'm also excited to talk

about it. I'm very Yeah, there's so much, especially I don't know, like Speke Lee is such a fascinating figure two, and it's like he's one of the few oh Tours that I feel like is very willing to interact with conversations about his past work in a way that most men are. Like, No, I was right, which I mean, we were just talking about one of them. What Allen is an excellent example of someone who has made a movie in this aesthetic style and refuses to acknowledge any

of the problems with this passwork. And that's the most problematic thing about him. Um. But in any case, I'm very excited to talk about this movie and and the history. Should I just dive into the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it. All I still can't get over this. I know so wild. I have to make sure here it's that's so nice. Okay. So we open on some still images of Brooklyn taken by Spike Lee's brother. Spike Lee's family is very present in this

movie movie. Then we cut to Nola Darling played by Tracy Camilla John's. She's waking up in bed and then begins to directly address the camera, saying that she wants to clear her name. She considers her self normal even though other people have called her a freak. And then she's like, but here's the deal. Then we cut to a man named Jamie over Street and the Jamie representation with this character Jamie. I think very poor Jamie representation

in this movie. You bring in a Jamie character automatically, I'm rooting for them, and things really take a turn certainly. He's played by Tommy Redmond Hicks. He's also addressing the camera saying that he believes each person has only one soul mate, and for him, Nola was that person. We see a very sensual sex scene between Nola and Jamie. Then we cut to Nola's ex roommate, Clorinda Bradford played

by his sister. Yes, how is her name? I thought it was Joy, but then it's Jually she's telling us that when she lived with Nola, there'd be all these strange men in their apartment that Nola was having sex with, and it caused day falling out between Nola and Clorinda, and then put a pin in that character because she's not gonna be back for so long. One of the problems with this movie, it's like, let's introduce a woman

and then disappear her. Can I don't want to interrupt the we can, but the first scene, the first sex scene, Jamie is so sweaty, and to pick that up in low light, in black and white, that he's truly dripping sweat on this poor woman. You're right, that is can You pointed out all these incredibly insightful things about shooting on film as we were watching this, I was like, oh, yeah, it would be really hard to like, you have to be sweating a lot for it to pick up through

so many yes things. I was just like, oh, no, poor her, because she didn't look that sweaty. Like she touches his back and you can see like droplets move, moving and being spread out over skin. And I was like, look, not all Jamie's have sex like that. Some Jamie's are very dry. It's also weird because they almost not everywhere, not where it counts, but in other areas. You know, it's fine, but they would have only been simulating six So like, why is he so sweaty? Was there some

was there someone like with a spray bottle? Like maybe we need to make this realistic. Maybe that yeah, I don't know. I mean not to shame sex sweaters. Your body is your body, but it was a lot of sweats of sweat. There humans, human bodies, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of naked ones in this movie. Um, okay, So Nola tells us about how men come up with some really off putting pickup lines. But Jamie was different. And then we see the scene where they first he

had that. He was absolutely not different and in fact, was maybe even weirder than you see. This really funny, um, this really funny montage. Oh my god, I can't remember any words today. For the listeners. I was starting to ken he said the word alter and I was in my notes four different times. It says Nola's meaningful shelf and I'm just suffering. Um. But yeah, that the montage of like shitty pickup lines, but with the guys who were like locking eyes with the camera and trying to

like fuck you through this. It's just so funny. It's really good. Some of those lines have not changed. I live in Brooklyn now, and I'm like, yep, he still lives there. He still lives here. This guy definitely still here. What's up. He's just fifty five now, he's hanging out at the same bars. Yeah, this movie is thirty five years old. Came out in eighties six, which is also the year I came out. Wow, nasty way to put that.

I came out of my mom's I was like, okay, you could specify what kind of coming up, but Laurie, you know you're listening anyway. Okay, So right, Jamie meets her by spotting her while he's waiting for the bus and then following her to a to a fun jazz soundtrack by Spike Lee's dad. He goes from what I presume to be j Street Metro Tech down Fulton Mall. These are all New York places, but you can still go shopping there if you want to, and that it's

like they're not like right beside each other. Just to be clear, they're like So he's following her for a while. He goes from the f entrance and he walks down this Fulton Mall road to an entrance of the two three. Okay, so that's totally different train lines to get Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can relate, and I understand same you. And then yeah, but did you live in Manhattan? I did. I lived in East Harlem. Then I take back the that's normal, Okay.

So then we meet Mars Blackman played by Spike Lee himself. He talks about how Nola was a freaking the sheets quote unquote, and he's like, well that's something that men want, yeah, but not for our wife. You can say the most vile things in character, and he's so lovable, like just you're just like I can fix him. Yeah. He's also I put this in my notes, he's more attractive than the other guys, like more than Jamie, more than everyone

in that weird montage. And it was just kind of like what a self centered thing to do as the director, to be like, is he hotter than me? Well he's not. In the picture of it, No way would happen'd stand next today? I thought that that was no. I mean, I feel like that's a good use of power. I would be like, no one hotter than me in the movie,

I'm gonna look amazing. Well he got over that because in the show everyone is the most beautiful person you've ever seen, but he's not it, and he stopped being people kept getting hotter and hotter, and he's like, I'm just gonna stay back here, I feel But Spike's hot. It's like to this day, he's hot. He looks the way he did in this movie. So then we cut back to Jamie over Street, who mentions a woman who seems to be interested in Nola, though Nola denies that

anything that's going on between them. Then we meet this woman Opal gil Strap. Everyone you said this while we were watching. Every character in this movie has such a good movie name, Like it's so movie it's great. Nola asks her what it's like to have sex with a woman, and Opel is like, well, you should just try it parentheses with me, which Nola does not do. Then we meet Greer child's played by John or Canada Terrell, which

is an even faker name somehow. Oh my god, I need to like put a pin in that and be like, just name you give your kid the middle name Canada, and just see what happens. What happens, like, see how they turn out. You know, that's fun, probably gonna be cool, you know, like I feel like it will elevate someone, not a middle not a middle girl, Nada. He talks about how he molded Nola into a refined young woman. He's very judgy and elitist. He has a perm he does,

and a series of suits that he wears. I think each and every time in a situation that that does not call for it. Yeah, not at all. Every Mars is wearing a jersey of some kind. Yeah. I was like, I'm sorry, but Thanksgiving at a studio apartment, you don't need to don't wear a suit. He don't. And just for the listeners, A PERM in the way that black people use it, not in the way that white people use it, which makes hair curlier. A PERM in the

way that it relaxes the hair, a relaxer or a texturizer. Okay, now you guys got someone else would be like, I don't notice, like Sigourney Weaver used to do. Honestly, it kind of meets in the middle there because his hair has a little bit of wave to it that some coirrels. There are some Sigourney roles. Yeah. Then we see a sex scene between Greer and Nola, which is mostly him taking his clothes off very slowly and folded. That was I like. When I got there watching that scene, I'm like,

not enough sex scenes are funny. I agree. Yeah. So then Jamie gives Nola a birthday gift he had hired some dancers to do a dance scene. That is the only scene in the movie that's in color, because the rest of the movie is in black and white, which I guess was I read a little more about it, and I guess that Spike Ley was really into MGM musicals when he grew up, and so that was like his MGM musical moment. He wanted to have like a musical dance scene because that was like what he liked

growing up. But I thought that was really cool. Nice. Also, the song that the dancers are dancing too is about howla Fox a bunch of dudes. Unfortunately, the song absolutely sucks ship. It's not that sorry Mr Lee, Mrs Dad, but I don't like it. He's listening. His name was Bill Bills Alive. He's ninety three years old and kicking. When I get back to Brooklyn, I'll reach out and I'll say, but it's also just wild. That's the song that they're dancing to. That like about something that Jamie

is very threatened by. He's like, yeah, my girlfriend is sucking a bunch of other dudes, And I constantly bring up how I hate that, but I wrote a song about it. I do think that like ties into I mean, especially because we watched it back twice, and watching that scene back the second time knowing where Jamie's storyline goes, is like, this is a very fucked up way to behave.

But even so, it's like so much of this movie is like knowingly so this isn't even a criticism of Just like different men with different backgrounds and different personalities lash hang out at the same woman for not giving them what she wants, even though she repeatedly tells them that's not what she's going to do. And it's just like they become more and more conniving and like strategic and expensive like what he composed and like rented out

space and hired dancers. They had to rehearse, probably to criticize her at her like that was her birthday President, but hey, you funk a lot and I don't like it. Happy birthday, and you're just like this is so much work anyways. Meanwhile, Greer is recommending that Nola see a sex therapist because he thinks that she has a sex addiction because but and she thinks that because she's not

giving him what he wants. Yes, then Nola invites her three boyfriends over for Thanksgiving dinner so that they can all meet each other, and again they're all quite reatened to buy each other. Can we discuss how this seems like a nice thing to you and a truly terrible thing to wee. I was like I would do that. Oh my god. I think we really learned about each I truly, like in a good friendship way where Kenneth and I were like, oh wow, this is the stuff

of nightmares. It's like, this is kind of a sexual fantasy. It's true, but you know, it's good to know now we know each other and now so facilitate that. You know, I will if one of your ex is or currents is like, hey, we'll do that for your birthday. Yeah, thank Yeah, We'll get all your ex is in the room and then be like we're going to see ourselves exes. You have to have partners to have an ex Okay,

now it's getting personal. I'm gonna no anyway. So they have Thanksgiving dinner together and then they all play Scrabbled together. That's my favorite part list. Okay, So then Nola has a dream that Jamie's greers and Mars's girlfriends all come over. Accused Nola of stealing their men and then set Nola on fire, but it's just a nightmare. Then Jamie confides that he started to see another woman and that he's not like Nola and he can't see multiple people at once,

so she has to make a choice. So she's still kind of like, as far as he sees it, she is stringing him along, so he leaves her. Then Opal tries to make a move on Nola while she's like, hey, I'm having a tough time. I know I'm not working out with the guys. This is the moment, yeah yeah, and like does fully surprise kiss Nolah, who is not responsive to the kiss at all, and then it's like, hey, you should go uh. Then Nola calls Jamie and tells him to come over, she really needs him. Then he

does him over and trigger warning, he rapes her. Unclear if the movie really understands what's happening or not, which is like the whole discussion will have yes. Then Nola reconnects with her former roommate Clarinda, she breaks up with Greer and Mars. She goes back to Jamie and asks him to take her back, which he presumably does, but the next and final scene of the movie is her addressing the camera one last time, saying that it didn't

work out with Jamie. She's not a one man woman, and she's like, you know, this is my mind, this is my body. We can kind of unpack the whole monologue later, but she gives this like powerful monologue and then she gets into bed by herself, and that is the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss, and we're bad back in the same room. While we're still all here together. Wow, we didn't leave. Where shall we start?

Is anything jumping out? There's so much to talk about, I know, I guess just to kind of generally speaking, I appreciate that it is a movie about a woman who likes to have sex. She wants a number of different partners, something that like most people judge her for. But as she's constantly staying in the movie like this is my life, my body, my choice, and ultimately like the movie allows her to do whatever she wants. She's not judged by the movie. She's judged by the other characters.

You know. It's just like it's her setting the record straight and showing people that she's not some like quote deviant or like quote freak, and that that's a perfectly fine thing for a woman to have a large sexual appetite. I have a weird question who is Like I know Spike Lee is the maker of this movie, but the person behind the camera has like even an interaction with Spike Lee where he's like bone in, oh, you know, like this, so it indicates that there is someone there,

And I I was just like, what is this? That's a really good question. I don't really know the answer, like who was who was supposed to be making this? And is it because this is such a strange thing that this woman has sex or like yeah, I don't I didn't totally get that. I didn't even I think that. I think I that didn't even register for me because it's so normal for someone to talk to like talking head and avoid now where it's like what was the

office being filmed for? Um, I don't know. I didn't even think about that, and like a woman whose sexual habits are so abnormal for that we're making a documentary like I WHOA, I don't know. And then because I asked that partially because at first I was a little bit confused about the chronology because everyone's scenes where they are looking directly to Cameron talking seemed to be happening

after the events of the film, right they're telling the story. Yeah, so then they jump back and I'd be like, wait where part of me was like maybe I'm just like not smart enough, but like I was like a little bit thrown in some scenes like when is this is this when we see her sleeping with these different people? Is this before the other thing? Oh, this is all happening simultaneously. Okay, No, I think you're too smart because

I didn't even then, didn't even occur to me. I was just like boeing, Yeah, the way that like a reality show will have, like the talking head interviews where they're talking about something that clearly happened in the past, but they're talking about it like it's currently happening, where it's like Kim is like Chloe obviously has an issue with shirt and like which could be a person or a shirt, and then and it's like making it seem like this just happened or like they're just talking but

it's like clearly it's weeks later, but the tense of it talks about like I don't know. Yeah, but now that con that's a great question as far as like who is like the characters who are directly addressing someone who is presumably asking questions, who is that person? Who? What is that entity? We don't have to answer, but that is a really good question. I feel good about myself.

But yeah, I mean I think especially like having to like repeatedly put myself in the mindset of this movie and these themes coming out in six it's like that is a pretty huge thing to have happened and to have been extremely successful. And we'll talk about the production

of this movie. Basically this movie was made for like very very very little money and then ended up making seven million dollars in nineteen eighties money and like became this huge thing and like launched Spike Lee's career and the fact that his first movie was about the sex life of black woman who was very empowered and like was I don't know, Like it's like this just didn't happen.

Like it's really cool. And I think, like from like a male otour, I've we got to think of a better way to say that, because it feels bad coming out of my mouth, but like from from an otur who's a guy, you know, A first movie where it's like Spike Lee puts a lot of his own himself in his main character, who is a woman, and like gives her the agency he would give himself in that like where it's like there's just like details of Spike Lee's young life that are in Nolah's where it's like

he's raised by artists and like I was raised with this very strong sense of artistic integrity and like was you know and what you can tell because his family is literally in the movie supporting his art and contributing their own art into it, and it's like those are all qualities that he gives to Nola And I feel like that's like I don't want to like over credit.

But also it's like you just don't see it a lot of like a male or turn not one to one ing themselves into a movie, which as I feel like, I mean, oh, tours in general are kind of just like, well here I am, this is me pretty interesting, right, And it's like he's like, you know, thinking, I don't know, yeah, imagine. I totally agree. Although that said, would I like to see a movie about a like very sexually free and

empowered woman having been written and directed by a woman. Yes, yes, I would like um because they're like, there are specific things about this movie that like aren't great, they're very of the time, but the general promise I can still get behind, like a dude like come in Spike Lee for you know, like not having such an enormous ego that he ye what it is, because it's like, I mean the scenes that are between women in this movie,

of which there are not many. I you know, even if I didn't know this is a Spike Lee movie, I'd be like, I don't think this was written by a woman? Does I'm not feeling that I don't know. I do want to say before we moved past it that a apartment has twenty foot ceilings at least full windows, multiple windows. I looked for an apartment in Brooklyn at the beginning of last year, and they would be like, you have one window. Okay, it's the living room window.

And we actually built a wall halfway through the window so that technically the bedroom also has a window, which is required by law. Okay, So the idea that this woman has, like I wasn't counting, but I did. I think I clocked at least like six windows, twenty ceilings, enough space for a queen size bed to have a whole altar built around it. And that's not well phantom of the opera style, like burning candles. It's a it's

a big old metaphor, but it's dangerous. It's dangerous. I believe the word is meaningful shells and it's overlooking the Brooklyn Bridge. Today. Today they would have that would be that would have been divided into like four one bedroom apart because they would have built up the floor like millions of dollars now and she lives there by herself. As someone who does layouts in magazines, I wished her I think, so, yeah, she's a graphic designer and it's

like I do. I'm like, I wonder it sounds like based on your description that it was also unrealistic when it came out. But I wonder how unrealistic, because I think it's hard. How do I put this? Now? White people live in Brooklyn, and I guess in the fifties, based on the movie with Churcheronan they did too, but like for a while, right for a while, they did

it heavily, heavily gentrified. Yeah, yeah, so I was like, maybe maybe this is sucked up, but we're like white people so afraid of black people that they were like, no, not even with good real estate. No, I wouldn't do it. Sorry, Nope, not gonna do it. Just there is some commentary in the show in the in the series that got adapted from this movie about like because it takes place in

the same neighborhood. But there's a lot of commentary online gentrification, and there's a lot more like class commentary and stuff like that. So a lot of the things that I don't care for about the movie get course corrected in the show. Although the show is not perfect, and I've read some criticism about that that I was like, oh, yes, good point, but does it have the language of like polyamory, ethical, nonmonogamy,

all that stuff. Yes, So in the show, Nola Darling identifies as a sex positive, polyamorous pan sexual okay, got it, okay, which does not happen in the movie. And I and I don't even like personally fault Spike Lee for that. That just wasn't popular. Lee understood language and not that it wasn't being discussed, but it wasn't being discussed in popular movies. Yeah, I mean should we should we talk

about that element of the movie. Yeah. Again, Like, this is a story about a woman who like embraces her large sexual appetite. It's not like demonizing a sexually liberated woman the way that like whole genres of movies do, Like we talked about like film noir, this happens in a lot of like horror slasher movies. But this is just like a character study about a woman who likes to have sex. She's extremely open not only about her sexuality,

but like with her partners, about the other partners. She has the names giving together like I yeah, and again it's like I'll qualify this by saying I'm not polyamorous, and I might not get things right, and I apologize if so. I want to understand more. But it's it's interesting to see a character who, like Nola is so it's it's part of what makes the three men so

frustrating is Noah is extremely straightforward. She's very honest, Like even in moments where in my head, just with movie brain, I think she's going to lie she doesn't like and there there's a there's a moment where she's in bed with Jamie and Mars calls her and they have a quick talk. She hangs up. Jamie says, who was that? And in my movie brand I'm like, she's gonna lie, but she says it was Mars. I was like, she's giving you all the information. She tells Mars, Mr. Police,

I gave you all the clues. She's literally writing a snowman note every morning, noon, and night, multiple people so much. Sometimes she's reveling in it, just being like when he's like, do you want to go to the Caribbean with me? And she's like, I don't think I could stand being alone with you for more than for two weeks and a time, and she's like smiles and she said it

like you're the worst. I was like, damn. But she like she's very honest and upfront with all of her partners, and so the fact that they are like in that whatever like mental loop of like let me try the same thing over and over even though I have all the information I need and I'm expect a different result.

It's like until they become angry at her for something, listen like they weren't listening, and they trust that they know her better than she knows her, and it's this thing that's like the underlying assumption is like you're saying that, but you don't really mean it. And I'm going to go based on because I know you so well, I'm gonna assume what your actual intentions are. I'm going to assume what you actually mean, and I'll go based on my assumption. And when you don't do the things that

I assumed, I will accuse you of being sick. Like in the case of Greer, I mean, that's like something that really I mean it is. It's I don't think it's like callously played for laughs. I think it works in the way it's presented. But it's very clear because the three men in this movie are just like in different ways, also embarrassing and like hard to watch. Um. But Greer, I mean his I mean, he has he has a lot of stuff going on, but like he's

very very classist. He is insulted that um, that Nola would have sex with someone of a lower class than he does. It clearly really really bothers him. So it's like you just watched all these different characters find ways to attack each other and the woman that they are saying that they're in love with and to shame her into being with them exclusively. And there's a scene where Greer's new approach is that he's going to say that she's addicted to sex and that something is wrong with her.

And that's something that comes up again again with Nola. That the movie for the most part, and but like the most part, seems aware that it's like the people accusing Nolah of deviants are projecting their own insecurities on to her. She's not deviant. She is a horny person who is being very honest, like, so what do you want from her? She's giving She's giving you all the clues,

Mr policemen Um. But in that scene, like Greer says, like, I think you need to see a doctor, Like cut to Nola, I'm like, why did Nolah agree to go see the doctor? That was a rushion I had of Like she clearly knows, but she like whatever, if she's

appeasing him, whatever it is. She goes to the sex therapist, who's also this very like comedy character and very like I feel like in the way that a lot of eighties and nineties and even like two thousand's and sometimes two thousands tens therapists are like stylized of like they're very arrogant and they're talking down to you and they

think they know it's best for you. But even so, even though it's like you have this like therapist who's like n y U accreditation is very prominently displayed on the wall, and it's like when I Spike Lee went to n I, I'm sure that's a loaded thing to do whatever, But even so, the arrogant therapist is like, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a perfectly healthy person.

Cut to Greer being like women doctors right, like so just like these men could not have more information, and Nolan is being I think like in some cases over really generous with her energy to like put their minds at ease and to accommodating. She's I'm just like who accommodating? Yeah, Because they're either like accusing her of saying she's sick, she's a freak, she's a sex addict, saying things like she's not capable of loyalty or devotion or commitment or love.

Even they're all threatened by each other, and just like they're constantly attacking her for things that again, she's always been extremely upfront about and that they just refused to understand because, like he said, cans, they are making assumptions about her and they think that they know her better than she knows herself. But I also think that they're probably they're just like pulling from stereotypes about women in

general police because that's not allowed anymore. They're like, we didn't have all the clues where they're like, you know, just like the idea that like women want marriage and babies and to have a very domestic life and to

want it. So from the moment you see Jamie, you're like, this guy wants to be a wife, guy so fucking hard, which is just like and there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact that he's like weaponizing that and projecting that onto a person who keeps telling him that's not what she wants, at least at this phase in her life. Because I do like how the script gives us like little insights into into Nolah's life, where like she hints it like I want a family someday, but I just

that's not where I'm at right now. That's not how I want to live right now, and so have five kids right which I'm like, well, run that back and see how you feel in a couple of years. She's in her like mid twenties. You know that'll scale down over time. But even so, it's like she repeatedly was like, that's not where I'm at right now, Like I don't I want to it's so frustrating. I want to unpack

her like closing monologue. Sure, so she starts by explaining that the celibacy thing didn't work out because she had told Jamie that she was gonna be celibate for a while. And then she says that she shouldn't have gone back to Jamie in the first place, implying that things didn't work out with him, and she's absolutely correct that she shouldn't have gone back again. And then she says about Jamie, he wanted a wife, a mythic, old fashioned girl next door.

But it's more than that. It's about control my body, my mind. Who is going to own it them or me? I am not a one man woman. And then she goes on to say, you know, so there you have it from a number of people who all claim to know what makes Nola Darling tick. And then she says, I think they might know parts of me dot dot dot and then she gets into bed and the great I really love the ending, and it comes after such

a tumultuously frustrating ten to fifteen minutes before that. It is shocking to me that he sticks the landing at the end of something that Okay, so should we do? Do you have more to unpack on that just to say that, like, I'm pleased that that is like the final note of the movie, that that's like the button we end on, because again, like the movie had been building up that we're seeing her, like we see the men that she's with getting worse and worse as the

movie goes on. She's getting more and more frustrated with them. She breaks up with all of them at one point, but then gets back together with Jamie in a decision that we all find baffling. But then for the final moment to be like, Yep, that was a mistake. I shouldn't have gone back to him, Um, setting the record straight. This is who I am. It's about me, my body,

my mind, my choices. I own all of this. So I was very pleased that that's like Kenny's I mean, the more that he's like, I'm just going back to what are they filming her for? Because that brings me back to I was just looking at I had some of the opening monologue in my notes, and she starts by saying, I want you to know the only reason I'm consenting to this is because I wish to clear my name. I'm like, so whoever has a vested interest

in her having more than one boyfriend? Like it's so confusing, But I do think like those whatever that the movie very intentionally begins and ends in the same place, and I like, there's now I find the beginning of that monologue at the start of the movie to be I have questions, but she ends it on like some people call me a freak. I hate that word. I don't believe in it. Better yet, I don't believe in labels, which is like another great thesis statement for her character.

And then also when any other time you cut to her, like talking head in her bed, she's really like reading these men very very clearly, where she's just like, you know, I found two types of men, the decent ones and the dogs. She calls them weak, she calls them all these like and I feel like it's implied in that montage that she's so aware that all of these men are shitty that she's just like, yeah, I'm I'm not in no rush to settle down with any of these guys.

Like yeah, Like, I I like how she is. She has like those moments, and I wish that she got I mean, she does get a lot of opportunities to stand up for herself to these men, but they just stick around. And it's like to the point where I'm like, I don't know why she keeps talking to them. I don't know why they're still hanging around. We gotta break

up this group. It's not working because there are moments where it's like when Greer is aggressively like you are sick for having sex with people who aren't me, and she she like fires right back, and it's like, well fuck you, I'll never see you again basically, But then she goes to the doctor anyways, and I'm just like, this is a little confusing. I love the scene when she does finally break up with Green at the end and he's like, I'm so, He's like, you don't mean

any but you're the worst. You don't know anything. They don't like woman. It was like, Wow, he's a terrible person, but he was I think maybe one of my favorite characters in this but yeah, because like they're on the roof and he's like, come to the Caribbean with me and she's like no. He's like whatever, you it's right now. You gotta tell me yes or now. And she's like no, and he's like, okay, you don't have to rush, like

you let me know. By the way, took some time think about in the same way where it's like in that scene where she's like, okay, I'm having sex with too many people. I'll start by not having sex with you. He's like, well that's not rush. I don't know. Maybe maybe I only have sex with me. I don't know, Like it's yeah, there. The writing of the movie is so fun and like we we kept talking, I mean whatever Mars's character, how he can't not repeat back what it's just been said to him or what also what

he just said. Um, it's so good, Like all the characters are so distinct and it's so like again it's like you don't want to like hand it to a man for identifying male behavior too much, but it's like it is so funny to me how and funny in the bad way, But how like all three of these men, they're so different, but they all have a different version of the same problem, and the way that it manifests is very different, which is just like what you're saying.

They think that they know what this woman wants better than she does, which is of course not true, and so it works out for none of them because why would they? I just wish um before we move on to like the heavy heavy discussion, I would like to ask, did you guys feel like there were any scenes that

set up these relationships in a positive way? Like I feel like all of them were set up in like a here's clearly a failure, or like this is like how it's incongruous, But like, was there a moment and I think it's supposed to be after he stalks her down the street and they have a conversation. Is that the moment we're supposed to see them together and have

something positive that we then root for. That was one of the moments in the movie where I didn't necessarily feel like the movie knew that that was fucking mixtreme. That movie doesn't understand that because there's like dodel do do do do? And there the man actively stalking and even the shots are kind of like leering and you're

seeing her from behind like it's true crime footage. And then at the end, Nola's just like waiting for him near a subway stop and she's like like TV, you were following, you get here, and then he's like, I gotta see you again. You're like, this is not this is not good. So what happens here is that before we know how they met, we see a scene with them together. It's a very like sensual scene where they're like making love. I'm so sorry I just said that

I'm a virgin again. We grew. I'm sorry. It's cos a lie. I get that, but it's but and she says something like, you know, most men don't know how to like touch a woman, but like you're really good at it. Whatever his massage, look, his hands are angles, you can get the strength to get like that was awesome. So I felt I thought as though that their relationship was like from the first scene, I was like, oh, this does seem like mutually respectful, and you know, it

seems sweet and nice. And then that's when Nola is like she makes a comment like it seems that men are taught not to be in touch with themselves and their true feelings. I was like, cool, yes, generally very true. Then she says, and then you should hear some of the things that men say. And then that's when we get that montage of a bunch of different men delivering very corny pickup lines. There's a hot dog joke in there. Us a certified tenage premium beef tubes steak steak. Oh,

I forgot the tubes stick. I don't want to think tube when I think of a penis. I really don't. I think about tubes steak a lot. But it's not sexual. It's because that's my job. All this to say, Nola is clearly not impressed with this tactic of picking up women. And then she's like, but one guy was different, And then we cut to a scene where Jamie stalks her, and then you're like, this is the different guy. It is different, but in a horrible way. But yeah, like

those guys were creepy. This guy is stalking you. It's a different I was kind of I mean, and I honestly thought we were being set up with something a little bit different with Jamie that I mean, well, this isn't a criticism of the movie. But I sort of thought it was like the premise of the movie was something that you wouldn't see in movies of the eighties, of like a woman who is not interested in a monogamous relationship and a man who very much is like

that's not something you get very often. And I was like, Oh, we're being set up with these characters that you know don't have the socially prescribed desires. But then Jamie just turns out to be a rapist, and so I didn't see that happening. But but I do think that that is like I don't know, I mean, it's so complicated, because I do think that in some ways, and I

wouldn't include the rape scene. I just I mean, I feel at least better than Spike Lee regrets it because I think it just like complicates so much in the movie in a way that is not necessary and turned my stomach and was triggering. So but um, but in the way that like, Okay, I'm talking to this on

real time. But when you're presented with a character who's like a man who wants an anogamous relationship, I feel like they're almost presented to you like they're from then on or above criticism because that's so unusual and like, oh, a man who just wants to be with one person, well, then I guess we love this guy. So the fact that Jamie wants an anogymous relationship and turns out to be a fucking despicable person like also not something that

you see in movies very often. However, I think that he's still a despicable person even if you don't include a rape scene of our protagonist. That is upsetting and shouldn't be in the movie totally, because again, the whole movie is him and the other two men constantly sucking, sucking and being mean to her. It's like she sticks around even though your meat, Like, come on, it's very frustrating guys. But can we uh we got that discussion

out of the way. Yeah, I you know, trigger warning again, because we do have to talk about the rape scene in this movie that I just did not see coming at all. There's been a lot written about this movie, but like this scene in particular, because it is like shown, I mean very clearly, it is a rape scene where

and it's a violent rape scene. And when you mate or whatever, when when you see like that decision being made, You're like, what is even more important is like what happens in the scene after, And like, how is this movie going to handle the Because if you're making that creative choice, you better fucking know what is going to happen after and you better deal with that hugely triggering creative decision you just made. And this movie does not

do that. They make you know, they make you really sit in this horrible moment for Nola and then the next scene and this just felt like a knife twist in a way that was so frustrating as a viewer. Is the only scene you get with her and her friend is her name and Clarinda who you've seen Clorinda before because she's participating in this grad students documentary about some lady he met um and we find out that,

you know, the Clorinda and no Lower roommates. They had a falling out, and then it seems like Nola reaches out to Clarinda in the fallout of this rape, and I was like, Okay, maybe this is going to be a scene where let's see what happens, you know, like let's see how Nola brings it up. But she kind of doesn't like what happens is very I don't know.

This was a scene to me that I was like, this was written by a man who did not know how to write this scene because Nolah is saying things like I think I really fucked up this time, Jamie really hates me, and Clarinda replies by saying, oh, I don't even want to know what you did to make him feel that way, and it's like they're kind of

like circling around. They don't even talk about what actually happened really, and it's implied in the scene that Nola feels like what happened to her was her fault, which again is something that a lot of people who have been assaulted like feel. But this movie is not in sit in that conversation, and that's not what's happening in

this scene. It's I think one of the few and like a really egregious moment of the movie being out of its own depth, Like it's just not equipped to handle this plot point and I don't understand why fucking put it there, Like it's so yeah, It's what did take me by surprise is that she then in the scene after that, I think is talking to Jamie uh, and she's saying, she's telling him that she wants to be celibate for a while he's questioning why, like this

rape like prompts a change in her and like inspires monogamous, Like that happening to her is what changes her mind quote unquote between wanting to date multiple people into just wanting to date Jamie. Like it's just such a it's a dangerous creative choice to make to be like okay, and then he, I mean, he rapes her, and then all of a sudden she's like, you know what, I'm

dismantling my Phantom of the Opera bed. Like there's all these symbolic things that happened to indicate that her getting raped was actually a good thing, like the wake up, She's the wake up or something like that. So you guys both saw this movie more recently. I saw it well before me too, and just how we discussed it was fundamentally different, as though like this is this is kind of like what you play with firing get burn.

It was just like very much so like the discussion was, this is the wages of Hordom and if you whore around, this is what's going to happen, and just I'm so happy to rewatch it under like a not super Christian, not super like southern, not all of these other lenses that I was viewing it. So because yeah, that was And like so when she meets up with Clarinda, Clarinda is playing the upright based or the cello. It's gotta

be the upright base based on the thing ring. But she's playing that song Nola, And so for it to go right from like a violent rape scene to be like, here's the theme of a movie, you know, just to the natural course of progression and the song about how she she focks around. Oh, Mike, I didn't even connect that. God that is I would love to hear. I mean the nature of the discussion you were having in school.

That's like, I feel like we've had stuff like that pop up on the show quite a bit of Like just the conversation that we had like ten years ago was just so fucking wildly different. Um. I went to UM and a lot of the like modern and most of them were written when the Netflix series came out. About how this plot point was originally reviewed when the movie came out in six I think it's also very telling about just where discourse was at at this time, and and also keeping in mind that in six the

vast majority of movie critics were white guys. So this was from the New York Times. In eight, he says, Mr Hicks, the actor who plays Jamie. Mr Hicks gives Jamie a depth and passion that escapes other men. It is telling that when Jamie's patience gives out and he turns rather shockingly brutal to Nola, his violence seems natural and does not diminish interest in or sympathy with the character. Uhlass review Uh, Mr Times, I don't know, but it was. It was a white male film reviewer at the at

the New York Times at that time. Um. But even the fact that it's like it was such a prevalent, like it's exactly what you're describing, kinne of like, well, she took things too far, and this is what happens to women who take things too far, where it's like they just, uh, you've lost your power, where here was a way to get it back, like right, like and just implying that like yeah, he implied, like, well, of course that would happen when it's like there's not I

don't think a him of this movie where she's being dishonest or not completely straightforward with him, and it is. It's it's interesting because I think that there's moments in the movie where it felt clear to me that the movie was like he's getting in his own way, his false expectations and his like ego and his masculinity is like, what's preventing him from listening to her? But then but then it takes this turn at the end and like gives him the power back and then at the last

second gives it back to Nola. But it just doesn't deal with what happened, and I just don't understand. Yeah, should we tell? So? Spike Lee has been asked about this in at least two interviews that I found. One was from fourteen and then another was from m seventeen when the show came out. He's he's basically it was a question that he was asked about, like, do you regret anything any to quote my favorite misspelled tattoo, any regrets? Um?

So he says, it's, you know what, my biggest regret is the rape scene, and she's got to have it. If I was able to have any doovers that would be it. It was just totally stupid. I was immature. It made light of rape, and that's the one thing I would take back. I was immature, and I hate that I did not view rape as the vile act that it is. He qualifies in. There will be nothing like that, and she's got to have at the TV show, that's for sure, which it sounds like is very true, right.

I mean, I've only seen the first four episodes, but I don't imagine. There is a scene in which Nola gets street harassed and then assaulted, and then that's actually what prompts her female friend to suggest that she starts seeing a therapist, and that therapist character becomes someone that Nola sees in multiple episodes. So that whole thing was handled differently. Is it handled perfectly? I would say no, but it is certainly handle handle better than it was

in the movie. The Sorry I cut you off earlier. You were talking about what happens in the last scene together, where I think, do we get to the point where Nola does say to Jamie, like, so that's what took me by surprise? Yes, where so she calls it a near rape and she's saying that's why I'm going to be celibate for a while, or that she says like, that's you know, I'd rather not get into it. But don't you think that your near rape of me is

a good enough reason. I was surprised that, yeah, it even gets mentioned and identified, although near rape is not how I would response by saying, I've never done something like that in my life, which I think implies like, well maybe if you hadn't like it just implies that she her behavior forced him to do that to her. Yes, yes, I agree, which so he's still acting like on that bench,

he is still acting very much so like the wrong party. Yeah, yeah, like the blame is on you, Nola, and you've got to convince me to let you back into my life. And then that weird slow motion shot that isn't slowly not it's not slow enough. It needed to be slower. I think that they're just like um our editing budget we ran out just walk real slow. But then Kenisi pointed out there's a bird that flies past, and I

was like, I don't I don't like it. I was like, I get the spirit of it as a budget movie, but yeah, So in conclusion, the handling of the assault in this movie was really wretched, and but at the very least Spike Lee acknowledging that it was a mistake, saying he regrets it didn't view it the way it should be viewed. You know, It's more than you get

from most director you're back in their work. Like again, it's like, I don't mean to over do it, but I just like, no one is willing to have that discussion. It's so frustrating, Yeah, exactly. And it's another like ego thing where most you know, towards who are men, are unwilling to acknowledge that anything they ever did was wrong or a mistake or they're constantly defending their choices and that is horrible, like to the detriment of their life.

Like it's just so um. Yeah, So I'm glad that Spike Lee is willing to have the discussion and just and also like apply it to the next version of of the of the intellectual property almost. I know, I was like, I don't want to say I p out loud. That makes me feel ill. It's the world we're living in, baby, I p universe. Baby. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. Okay,

let's banish Jamie from the should should we have? And I think we've kind of covered me And I was like, but I'm leaving. Let's Spanish Jamie. I'm Jamie. I'm I'm tired. I'm going home. We've covered I. I think it. Does anyone else have anything for the Jamie character. I'm gonna stay. I'm glad you're saying thank you. I will now call air quotes nice guys toxic nice guys, you know, I will now call them Jamie over streets because that was

a wonderful example of exactly things. So like when she's talking about like how lame other dudes are who asked her out and how he was different, it is also this psychotomy that she's talking about where like air quotes nice guys, and because like the dogs are coming up to her and like you want to touch my penis, but the nice guy will literally stalk you, take everything you do personally, and then like, yeah, that's that's a nice guy. That's the sweet guy. I think it almost

like it. It almost feels like it ties to like the nerd thing too, of like feeling like, oh, I'm not the traditionally extremely egotistical masculine personality. Therefore, you should be thrilled that I'm interested in you and in fact you belong to me and like, and he gets so I think that he like, yeah, like almost overestimates the value of his performance of niceness. Nice guys always do that. Yeah, Like, I'm not like those other guys. I'm a different kind

of unstable. And if you don't respond to me the way that I want you to, I will lash out in ways you couldn't imagine. Like it's just it's yeah, it's not like a one to one there, but it does feel like just in terms of a level of entitlement, it feels kind of similar. And and then with Greer you've got something totally different where he literally refers to her as an object in his opening monologue, where he's like,

she was the clay, I was the sculptor. Like he's literally like, women in ways are hunks of horny clay. And you make him a statue, and sometimes they don't want to be a statue. It's like it's weird, like a statue. I put her on a pedestal. Um. But we haven't talked very much about Mars, who is another fun flavor of Mars black Man. That is his name. I'm not just saying that is his name, It's true.

And he's like immature misogynist like that like asogynist. Yeah, where he's like his his whole thing is like mean, I think that he we're supposed to think, you know, he's like the character that's closest an age. It is more I think that it's implied that like Greer and Jamie are like in their thirties and that like Mars is a little bit younger, and like he's kind of

a mess. He doesn't have a job. He's like he has more of a traditional ego where he's always like over like clearly overstating his impact on the world and like making ship up and like saying he knows famous people, but like doesn't have a job or has nothing going on, and so it's like, well, well that's not true, you know.

Like the movie also immediately undercuts because he's like women who act like this is problems that they're dead, and then they do this wonderful nice thing about her family and how she was raised very well, and it was very effective commentary. Right, there's like this he says something like, I think one of the reasons Nola was having all that sex is because doing all that boning. He says, right, yeah,

he's he's the baby, He's the baby. It's because her doing that is because she has a bad relationship with her father, um, which is obviously like a very common attitude that like, you know, women have daddy issues, especially the ones that are out there fucking um. And then we cut to a scene where we meet Nola's dad, who was played by Billy spike LEAs cut from son to dad this is kind of fun um, and Nola's dad is saying how much affection and love they gave

her when she was growing up. They paid for music lessons and dance lessons and all this stuff. And then right after that is a scene where Nola was like, you know, reminiscing about her childhood and the love her parents gave her and all that stuff, which is obviously like dispelling the issue, right the Yeah, yeah, that like um, mars is this belief that he has, you know, like horny women seek the affection of men because they have

a daddy issues. Women are the devil. And I think that like he takes that opportunity to kind of like go a step further to in a way that isn't totally necessary, but I kind of liked it. Um of, like what Mars is implying is like she's not marriage material, which he says in his opening monologue. He is like, oh, you you know, you want to be around a freak, but you don't want her to be your wife or that's whatever. I think. That's like basically what he says.

And he's implying that, like, oh, this woman is not family material. And then at the end, Nola is like, and I want a family someday. I had a great childhood and I love my parents and they love me, and we see that that's true. And then she's like, and I would like kids of my own someday. And so it's like it's like, well, this guy is just

fucking wrong. What a goof Um he also uses the very ablest our word word and seen he's in so eighties word and then yeah, that was kind of all I um Mars, Okay, yeah, that's all I had to I mean I also think just like he in the same way that the others guys do, just like can't take the hint and keeps pushing back on stuff. Like there's one scene where he I don't even really fault him for this, but he's just like, I love you, I think of falling in love with you, and she

sets the boundary again. She's like, well, that's not where I'm at, Like we are like, yeah, yeah, that's how you feel, like hit the bricks kind of and then he said he accepts it in the moment, but then in the next scene is still like, I hate these other guys you're dating, like protecting on her again and like it's just trying to find all these Like he and Jamie have this bizarre rapport between the two of them because Greer is like so classes towards Jamie and

uh and and Mars that that's a nonstarter. They're they're never going to talk about. Jamie and Mars kind of have this like weird anger based friendship misogyny being because they meet up again. They talk about basketball, they talk about Larry Bird is ugly, they have a whole I thought it was a fun way for spect Lea to get his basketball opinions into his first movie. Um I'm

doing that. I know He's like you might as well, but you know, to the point where Mars is like, oh, let's split her up by days of the week, and you're just like, oh my god, you're so sick. And so we did not involve her in this conversation. No, of course not, because he's like, you get it for four days, I get it for three. And it's like that means that Nola has to see one of you every day of the week, Like what about the alone

time she needs? And also, I mean and I think that like his character is such a goof that it's like he's half joking, but he's not totally, which doesn't okay, he'd be like cool and just again I read I get weekends. I told you that on a it's awesome. Wow. Men are so funny, they're so cool, they have such good ideas. And we talked about the other women in the movie. With the other women in the movie, there's not that much just say, it's like, let's just roll.

Let's we get Clarinda, who is the former roommate that Nola had, and right away, yes, um, they've stayed friends, but she's like I couldn't live with her anymore because she was just always having different dudes over at the apartment and then they, like you said, Jamie, they don't even interact until the end of the movie. They looking past the scene that had just happened right before it. If you can kind of like just isolate that scene

between Nola and Clarinda, you know, it's fairly sweet. It's you know, Clorinda seems like a supportive friend. Although and I think that it's like and I don't wanna because I don't necessarily think that the movie is like operating on this level of like thinking of how women relate to each other. But I was like, I could see Clarenda's point of view from like an annoyed roommate stance of like, if your roommate is having really loud sex all the time to the point where it's interrupting with

your quality of life, that's a discussion. But it doesn't. But it sounds like he wasn't maybe thinking about it that hard. It made it sound like you're having too much sex, and it bothers me as opposed to like I'm you know, maybe and I'm not pulling from my

own experience here. Maybe you podcast for a living, and so audio quality is actually kind of important here and then someone's just fucking, fucking, fucking you know against and you're just like, well, this is actually a problem, and then it's a discussion and then you and then you move. I will admit I would be pissed if I was like, Hey, I truly don't feel safe because of the I don't

know any of these men. I know none of their tales, and they're in my bathroom when I'm in a robe and I'm coming in and given what I know that you've told me, and for that roommate, you just be like you're not down, You're not cool. I'm on the lea's I would be kind of like, You're like, well,

can we have a discussion? And it also did I mean again, I just I'm like, is it even worth because I'm like, I just think that like maybe Spike Lee is not thinking about it that hard and it's like women don't like when other women have sex multiple sexual partners. Like I think it's more like he is assuming it's a monogamy brain thing and I could be wrong there. That was my read of it. Well, we would know maybe if we had just seen more scenes

between Nola and Clarinda, which which we don't get. I will say this is another thing that the series improves on, where we meet several of Nola's friends who are women. Some of them even have like arcs throughout the show, although I did read some criticism about that and other aspects of the show. Again, so it's I don't want to be like the show is a perfect and it fixes all the problems of the movie. Um, but it

certainly does improve upon them. Um. But yeah, with Nola and Clorinda, we like, well, yeah, it really almost nothing. It's the thing. It's like to the point where I guess we do have to like be grasping at straws here to be like, what does she mean when she said that? Because you just have no information of why she said that. Um. The other women that we see in the movie, we see the therapist for one scene, um, which is kind of more of an extended joke about therapy.

I thought of like, it's not a completely negative interaction, but it's like whatever, I just thought it was like playing on a lot of like therapists be like this and they're always like they think they're so much smarter than you, and you don't want to go back, which is I mean there's way more egregious versions of that commentary, but it wasn't my favorite. And also it's like that

the character never comes back. Sure, um yeah. What struck me about that is the therapist Dr Jamison says something like, you know what we're Jamie energy on this. Yes, seriously, she says, what we're all looking for is love and if you if what you want is total female sexuality, the beautiful sex organ is between your ears, not between your legs, and it's like your head right, it's just like again, as Nola clearly states she's not necessarily interested

in love. Again, she's like, I want a connection with someone, sure, and I want to have sex with people. Yes, it doesn't necessarily have to be love. So I was like, alright, sex therapists seems like you don't really understand your drop that well. But then I do believe that eighties sex therapists we're saying. I was like, I don't think it still existed in the eighties. Yeah, I think they're still out there. All of them have gotten no additional training,

and I've talked to them as they're arapists. They don't give you booster packs. I was told I had a porn addiction because I watch porn when I masturbate. Oh my god. Yeah. He was like, do you think you I think we should start talking about addiction here, and I was like, addiction addiction because I wanted Okay, I

there there's I do think that that's well. If we have therapists who listened to the show, I would actually be curious of like, are you encouraged to get booster packs because and I know that that's not an act term.

And then I'm talking in pokemon terms because my i Q is too, but um, but I have curious because it's like my mom is a teacher, and teachers have to get booster packs all the time to remain employed, like that you have to be con like to the point where it's like, you know, a burden to the teacher, of like you have to be constantly taking new classes and learned about new educational techniques, and like, if you're the same teacher you are when you start and when

you end, you weren't doing your job correctly because you should be getting booster packs all the time. Therapists should be getting but are maybe some of them are, I don't know. I'll look at the a p A guidelines for certification please hit us up. And that's just for psychologists. It's like different for psychiatrists and counselors. Right. I have the same question for medical doctors. Are you getting updated information because it seems like sometimes you really aren't. They're

getting boosters from the pharmaceutical companies. Okay, I'm not going to go with a whole I guess what I'm saying is teachers are godlike figures and they're paid significantly less than therapists and doctors. Um, not that we don't love therapists and doctors in in theory. Listen to the episode that you were on on Sludge, a podcast that I did retire from. I mean, and we say this, you know,

as God's True Soldiers podcast podcasters. So you have to take what we're saying really seriously because we went to school for twenty years. I have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University and I have a master's degree in film production from Boston University. We do hate to bring it up. That was okay, I feel like ship and I think that I went to the university that graduates people who actually work in the field. Emersy, you know,

I don't disagree. I had a terrible experience there. I don't like it. Um, that's okay. I I enjoy saying it on Mike. I relish saying it Mike. I owe them so much money. Um, all right, let's talk. Should we talk about Opal? We were talking about openly? That's that's I think our last remains woman big thing, I would say, So what, as far as my interpretation goes with Opel, you have pretty standard predatory lesbian trope at play here, where Opel also says some very strange, very

incorrect things about human sexuality. She says that you are neither born a lesbian or heterosexual. We all have the capacity to go either way, because those are the only two choicest sexuality goes and the most nineteen eight six like Guide dialogue, and again suggesting that sexuality is a choice. So that's of course sexuality is fluid, but um not a choice. So there's a scene early on I think they are. There are only two scenes between Opel and Nola.

The first one is Opal actively coercing Nola to have sex with her, because Nola is expressing curiosity about like what is it like to have sex with a woman as another woman, and Opal is just being like, well, you could find out if you just have sex with me right now? Um as perfect perfect. At no point did they actually describe the ways in which lesbians have sex,

And so I'm wondering did Spike Lee know? Was he like I also wrote that, I was like, asks the question does not have a character answer question right where he just put it in the movies, He's just like, he's like, I'm listening in the original, Yeah, and the original cut his addresses at the end of the movie in because you want to write him. It's like a po box of like, if you know women have sex, do you send a self addressed stamped envelope to the

following so? And then in her later scene when we touched on this, where Nolah is upset about her relationships falling apart, Ople seems to take advantage of Nola's vulnerable state and kisses her without Nola's consent, and then that's the last we see of Opal. She like walks out of this scene and the movie, so obviously that's extremely

toxic to portray a queer character this way. The series again does update and improve on this, where Opel is still a character, but rather than being coercive and like always trying to get Nola to have sex with her again, Nola is pan sexual and gets into a like loving and consensual relationship with Opel for a while. Yeah, so I do. I mean, I think that again, it's like when you say, like Opal's character is a stereotypically predatory

lesbian trope character, like it couldn't be more true. And it also like it doesn't feel like the movie has any idea that that trope even exists. And I feel like it's because it's an otura movie that was made on such a low budget. I'm assuming that Spike Lee was not consulting with anybody about this, and so it's like the very nineteen eighties prejudices are coming to the

table in a way that has a cultural effect. If your first movie made for you know, as happens to be, you know, put in the fucking Library of Congress, which I believe this movie is. Um. Yeah, I found I found that to be so frustrating. And also because it's like there's moments where it seems like the script is trying to characterize not care I mean not really characterize

her very much. But there's that scene with Jamie and Opal where Jamie is so clearly in the wrong and again projecting onto Opal and yeah, he says, Opal, you're

a very beautiful woman. I never would have thought you were gay, like saying things that I think the movie does recognize that he is the prejudice asshole and that scene, but then there's other but then the way that Opal's character behaves, the movie doesn't have any idea that because like Opal responds to that comment from Jamie saying like how a person looks has no bearing on their sexuality, and then he's like, yeah, I guess you're right, which

I think, yeah, as the movie's attempt to be like I know about lesbians. See, but then the but then everything else about Opel's character is like, no, you don't, and then Spike clearly does not. Again it's just like it just seems like Spike LEAs out of his depth with that storyline. Um in a way that has a

consequence because it's a very famous movie. UM, I want to I just wanted to give a little bit bit of context for the movie and how it was received because we were talking about this off Mike, but this movie was made for very little money. It was originally shot on a budget of around twenty ish dollars and then eventually raised enough money for it to have I guess a total budget of a d seventy five dollars.

But it just mean we've talked about this with a number of filmmakers in the past, but just how marginalized filmmakers have such a steeper hill to climb to have their first project produced. Um, I forget what our last conversation about this was. And but in comparison to Ann Burt of White Male Au Tours, I think that Wes Anderson is always the one that we jumped to because it was like he got a multimillion dollar project based off of a two minute short film that he made

and they're like, King, like you've done it. You're a wonder kid. Give it to his child, because I think he was like twenty six when he made his first movie, and it's and it's just like framed as like this hero's journey and Spike Lee is in his twenties when he makes this movie. But it just like listening to the significantly more difficult time that he had in getting the movie made. Um, I'm seeing here from our favorite

scholarly journal Wikipedia. The original like twelve day shoot began with eight dollars from the New York State Council on the Arts, a ten dollar grant from the Jerome Foundation, and five hundred dollars from the Brooklyn Arts and Cultural Association Crafty for the day. I'm sure that's all they could have word who knows, but um, and then consulting I'd be like, keep it, use it, um. And then that wasn't enough to get the movie through post production.

So then Spike Lee showed a rough cut at n y U and he said, I'm Spike Lee, and I hope you liked this film. I'll be calling you soon about money. You can give me money, which I mean, it's the money he had to. He did what he had to do. But it's all that to say it shouldn't have been that hard. I just that Wes Anderson's story always breaks my brain. It makes me so mad. I'm never gonna get over it. It haunts me so yeah.

But I meanfortunately this movie was extremely successful. It like made seven million dollars at the box office off of a shoe string budget and then completely you know, like launched Spike Lee's career into the stratosphere. Another word that I feel like it is a kind of like goofy word, but I meaningful sky bitch. I was gonna say with my words that I have control of her. Um that we didn't mention this when we talked about the Mars character, But this is just such a bizarre I'm like, I

don't even know what to do with this. The Mars black Men character was later used in Nike commercials with Michael Jordan's so like someone at Nike. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people in Nike he saw She's got to have it, and their takeaway from the movie was, Wow, Mars black Man is such a cool character and he wears Nikes. We should have him make commercials with Michael Jordan's for shoes. Like it's such a weird idea, but the commercials are really funny. Isn't okay? Correct me if

I'm wrong? I might be completely misremembering this. But wasn't the movie Space Jam basically made because there were commercials with again Michael Jordan's and like Bugs Bunny, and then they were like, we should make a whole movie about this. Am I is that something, or am I I completely remembering that incorrect? I don't know. I was literally like, ask Princess, I don't know. I like, I assume that Princess knows most fun facts about space jams. We might

have talked. I'll just go back and listen to the episode. But I'm like that. I was like that, and if that's true for like Mars black Man in a commercial with Michael Jordan Michael Jordan in a later commercial Bugs Bunny Space Jam. Michael Jordan is an effective marketer, It's always been. But just like, I just think it's so bizarre that I don't know, Like just the cultural impact of this movie is so gigantic that a a b character from an indie movie was in a Nike conversion.

That's so bizarre. I love it. I say, oh my gosh, that's so wild. But like, truly, the show that has one best comedy for like two years is based on an ESPN two commercial. You know that we just have to accept Yep, this is going to be the basis and sometimes the result of art. I love intellectual property. It's beautiful. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts on the film of two Hit? A small closing. Did you guys like her art? Her art? I thought it was

very eighties, Okay, cool. I was like, I'm watching this and I'm looking at this art, and I'm like, I don't think this is supplementing her income to the point where she could afford this apart bit I just looked at it. I'm like, I think I literally looked at it and it it was like, I guess that's what art was like in the eighties, which is wild because I've seen art from the eighties and it doesn't look like that. Um, I've heard that is one thing that we didn't say.

It's like, I appreciated it sounds like that it's given a lot more narrative significance in the TV show, but that we do know what Nola does, even though it is kind of a Cary Bradshaw situation of like how could this lead to this home? But we know what she does, and we see that it matters to her. We see her working on it, and we see enough of it that we can be like, it's not even that good. I wouldn't hang it in my apartment. Think it's not for me, but I'm happy that it's afforded

her a million dollar apartment. So that's so someone's loving it. And then what was your other I've completely forgotten it. It's got I'm so sorry. My last thought was the real protagonist sosist movie is New York City. I love what don't you love? I love let her to the City. But also seriously, Spike Lee like used his own brother's photography of like Brooklyn to like mark the passage of time. I just the family elements to this movie I thought

were very sweet. That's like nepotism I can get behind, because it's not even nepotism if you need your family as employees on your movie, like he had like multiple people in his family he had working as like production assistance, and it's like I will pay you if I can get the money. And so it's like it just seemed more like a I don't know, like Mickey Rooney, Judy Garland, like we gotta put on a show folks, like by

any means necessary, and like got it done. And then I I mean, I hope Spike Ly at this point has paid his family for working on She's got to have it right. He is a multimillionaire. I guess my final thought is that and I'm also I'm like basically horizontal right now. I'm like lying down so much. You have started to you were eye to eye and not. Part of it is I and I might cut this out, but part of it is I have to poop so badly, and I'm just kind of like sitting here trying to

like lead in it. I made those vegetables and chocked you, and I've got blowing our asses up. I'm gonna go home and haven't experienced Yeah, So mostly this posture is

me just holding God. Okay, let's it passes. The Bechtel says, No, I have this important thing to say that okay, okay, which is that that this is a movie again directed by a man in the eighties, a famously not very progressive time, that is mostly commenting on the toxicity of a lot of different types of men and empowering a woman, especially in a way that women have historically been so disempowered. That's very cool. Again, there were missed deps along the way.

It wasn't handled perfectly in every regard, but that that is like what this movie boils down to. It's cool. I agree, And I also this was something that like was again and this is like extreme grain assault because this is what was brought up more in the time

when it was first being reviewed. But a movie that focuses on the sex life of a like middle to upper middle class black women, which is like, wasn't really happening, And um, a lot of reviewers sort of made note of like many of the popular stereotypes around black American characters at this time, and how this movie just like existed outside of that world entirely, and it's like, here's

our protagonist, here are three shitty dudes. Let's go right, And it always goes back to like who's making the movies that perpetuate those stereotypes shitty uneducated white people, right, and sometimes highly educated. They're like, I have so many degrees and I still have not learned what black people are. What are they? Do? You know? Any looking? And then they put their po box at the end of the movie. If you have any insight, please s A s s um. Yes,

it does pass. The Bay still tests, but not too much, very much, not enough that it gets scary. I would see. It's mostly between her and Opal, and those conversations are again Opeal trying to coerce her into sex so it's not good. And then as far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional Femis lens, oh, I would go with like

a three and a half. I think for this one. Um, it's obviously getting some nippleage docked off for the extreme mishandling of the sexual assault and the predatory lesbian character, the failure to further explore Nola's relationships with any female friends, and only just like getting a very small glimpse of

that aspect of her life. This is a small thing, and I'm sure it is like related to budget stuff, but I just thought it was like interesting that they showed her dad and they made mention of her mom being alive and well but at work and like could not comment. Can we get like a shot shot that was? It would have been nice. Weird when he said that,

he was like, my wife, we're still together. She's I kind of wonder if that was like a production thing of like we were supposed to but like Spike's mom couldn't make it today and so they're like he's like just say she's at working, or like if if spike Ley's mom is anything like my mom. She does not want to be photographed. So maybe she was just like I shouted at your mom's vagina on Mike today, Caitlin,

what's no wonder? Oh that was the other thing. It's not about, although I do think she was like, if you can't pay me, honey, I'm gonna go to my job where I support was at work, Like I'm not gonna take at day off to not like the rest of the family is working on your little projects, so someone's gotta go to work. But the other thing that I wanted to say is bold move to have your first movie feature like a nice close up of you sucking on a nip. That is something that it was,

you know, the movies choice. I don't know, like I wasn't like I feel like sometimes when again, God, we gotta when men who make movies by themselves, there's another tendency usually when you're not inviting a lot of feedback that sometimes the sex scenes are leering and creepy and gross. I didn't think that this movie fell into that, even though I did, I mean Kidney's and I think it was a personal preference thing. We didn't love the belly

button thing. I don't think it was offensive. Sticks his tongue fully into a belly button, inclined a swizzes it around belly button. I just love it. But again that's not criticism, that's just a well it didn't it didn't feel good for it. But that's you know, but that's why there's all sorts of people. That's true. Three and a half, you were saying, reminder, I have to poop no um. Yeah, so three and a half nipples. I will give one to Nola, one to Clarinda. I would

have loved to see that friendship more on screen. I'll give one to Nola's mom, who presumably would have been played by Spike Lee's mom, but she was like, no, thanks, I don't want to be busy. And then I'll give the half nipple to the scene where Nola and her three lovers are playing scrabble together, which is again a sexual fantasy. I have, I will, I'll meet you there at three and a half. I think this movie is doing so much that no movie in six with doing.

I think that the mistakes we have unpacked and are extremely glaring and I found very upsetting. I was gently encouraged that at least Spike Lee has you know, engaged in the discussion around it and has admitted where he is wrong, and it seems like has course corrected in his future work. I haven't seen all of his future work, but um, I don't. I don't think that this is a recurring problem for him. So I think that we sort of I want Caitlin to be able to poop,

So I'll say three and a half. I'm gonna give I'll give two tenola, and I will give one to the Phantom of the Opera bed and I will give the last half nipple to New York City. M hmmm, I ever heard of it? I ever heard of it. I am gonna ride this three and a half. I think if you had asked me when I first saw it ten years ago, it was more than ten years ago. You said, like ten years ago, and I was like, I wish, I like being my agent's great, but I'm

gonna hurry up because I need to poop. So it's honestly fine, Okay, I really do want you to to tell us, because now we're so invested, we will sit around while you do it. And I wonder how hashtag going in there? Girl women supporting women let's get a hashtag going. Let Caitlin poop, Let's get I'll get I'll get the merch drafted tonight. I know I haven't made new Merchant two years, but I think that this is really going to bring

me out of retirement. I would love that. Yeah. I would have been given it three nips when I first saw it, just because I was like, well, this seems kind of fucked up, but because we were interpreting it as her getting her comemuppets versus like her. Like it's still again very dad, but at least she has like power and agency at the end of this, and it is her story throughout. So right now three and a half. Okay to to Nola half. To Mars Blackman as a character,

because that was he was in a Nike commercial. I mean, you can't take that from him. He does suck, but he's also so likable as a just like Spike Leaves is extremely likable. The closing track because they do like the cast basically like introduces themselves with the slate at the end and then Spike Leaves the last one. You're like, man, he's a fun Yeah, it's fun because he's like action. Okay, my name because he's the director, and you're like, that's you, dude,

is your That's like the correct amount of ego. I don't know how he struck the balance, but that is like the exact you can't go more, Yeah, you can't go more, but that was perfect. So and the that was two Mr Police, the police. I can't I just have to say something bad and then I'll give one to Okay, the remaining nipples. I can't do maths, so

don't ask me to the remaining nipples. Go to the scene between well, actually all of the sex scenes, because even now, it is not super common for like a black woman and a black man to be naked together having sex, especially like neither of them is light skinned, and that's always like a thing. They're like, we got a black person, I mean, and then you can barely tell, but come on, we got one. But this is like, no, these people are definitely black. They're they're dark, dark dark.

Although Spekey is the only one who doesn't show us, but and I was like, we see everyone else's but but we don't see how can we catch wow? See, Now that's the kind of ego that it's like everyone else showed there, but do you want to be in the movie or not. It's like you can't be hotter than me, and you all have to show your butts

and I don't. Okay, and I'm the director, Okay, but yeah, I like that because I feel like she's strong, she's empowered so many other images, especially at that time, of darker skin black women, and darker skin in American sense, not in the African sense. You get it. We're like these like sex crazed, deficient people. And to show someone who's like I had a good family, I had a good childhood. I like sex. I know how I live. Is it for everybody? But this is how I live,

and I'm very upfront about it. And I really, I really appreciated that she's not getting her value from them and she's having sex with which is what a lot of portrayals of black women were before that. Okay, I'm done, please go poop. Well, you gotta tell first of all,

thanks for being on the show, Cannie. Tell all those other people who were like close to me in the number of times that they've been on the show that they Okay, they can try to come from me, but come on, come on, we will have to set up a duel. I will fight them. Um. So, yes, thank you for coming back for a fifth time. Always such a treat to have you. How can people follow you online and check out your stuff? Plug all of your upcoming show dates? Okay, I will, Okay, so you can

find information about me at cannesemli dot com. That's why you'll see show dates and were information. Okay. First off, on Thursday's ten pm, check out my show Caitlin's Done It Twice. You're the only person who's done it twice. Make yourself smoking. It'll be a jacket good at Will. I'll get it at good Will and I'll sew a little patch on in anything. Yeah, if we gotta get I mean, you gotta figure out your union. But I'll let you know. I'm I'm busting it. So it's been hard.

But yeah, the show is called Make Yourself Cry. It is on Planet Scum, which is Chris Gether's Twitch channel. I did not know those words before, but you should come. You should watch it. It's funny, it's heartfelt, et cetera. Watch the episodes of Caitlin. I think one of them is still on my Instagram, so check that out on February, come see me at club coming in New York City. I will be running my hour in preparation for an album recording. Also in Boston, February whatever, the weekend of

Valentine's Day. I don't keep it in my heart because I don't have someone I love. I will be in Boston doing comedy. So come there. And then if you happen to live in Tennessee a city called Bristol, if you haven't lived there, I'll be doing a weekend there in March, so you know incredible. I bet we have at least one listener who lives in Bristol, Tennessee. You do please come because your presence will make me feel safer.

I'm one of those terrible city people that is terrified as soon as I go to a place with trees. So I need women and I need black people. Please come so I feel safe. Okay, I haven't wait. Can I plug your show? I just go, Oh my god, I do have to poop, but I took no. Please Jamie, no, Caitlyn, please please, Ji please, you can come see my solo show. I never I don't know why I don't play it. You can come see my solo show that I'm working on in Los Angeles at the Allegian Theater. It's called

Mrs Joseph Chestnut America USA. I play hot Tag eating champion Joey Chestnut's ex wife and he steals my intestine and then I kill him and that's what that's the whole show. UM. So if you can't see it, that's what happens. But that's gonna be on February seventeen at nine o'clock at the Allegian Theater and we would love to have some betel Cast listeners there. And you know, perfect way to come off of Valentine's Day is watch

a show about hot dog divorce. UM. And as far as the backtel Cast goes, you can find us everywhere that you get your social media addiction scratched. UM. We've got an Instagram, we've got a Twitter. They're both backtel Cast. You can sign up for a Patreon ak Matreon at patreon dot com slash backtel Cast. You get two extra episodes every month. We're doing what are we calling it Jane Debruary, Jane January, slash Austin August, Ember, and so we're covering um ONNYA Taylor Joy Emma and Pride and

Prejudice the other movie. Um, so, for everyone who's been requesting Jane Austen episodes for five years, we finally decided to listen once. Yes, and then you can get our merch at t public dot com slash the Epectol Cast. Be on the lookout for hashtag let Caitlin poop shirts. I'm going to get these texts every day. Where's my poop shirt? What an amazing friendship? Oh wow? So yeah, that's you can get our merch. Um and wow, what a what a joyful time. Our first in person recording.

I couldn't have asked for a better one, probably honestly our last for a while. That's very often. We all got tested. We're all very satter, etcetera. Please don't come from me. Okay, yeah, no, we were. We were saying about this. This This just worked out perfectly. So, um, you know, happy day you're having and Caitlin's got a poop b by Nas