Shape of Water

think people should be a little more direct. Um. And I'm just being clear with my intentions, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I will say like, I just want to make sure that me, like accepting the egg isn't like a metaphor in your eyes. And it's just a validation that I am hungry and and I'm never gonna turn down a free egg. That's so fair, honey, I'm not going to turn it out a free I go to any circumstances someone for set sweet. That's like a disgusting free food

to offer. Oh, I got I got eggs with the brain recently. Oh I heard a wild story about eggs the other day. Okay, but that's what I'll tell you off pod. Well, you listeners can just wonder what jabel egg story was. The intrigue friend told me a really long story about eggs and it was disgusting, disgusting. Okay, well, I can't wait to hear about it. Well, anyway, this is our podcast in which we should we that past,

that past. Oh my gosh, look at us passing the Bectel test on your birthday to have been talking about an egg anecdote because I wasn't specific about the gender of the person who had the egg experience. True, and

eggs are feminist icon eggs, so icon the egg. Um, there's a great I'm a big fan of YouTuber Jenny Nicholson and she made a video about the Lamb Before Time movies and singles out this song in like Lamb Before Time forty seven where they ran out of ideas and like the fourth one, and so in the one, the villain is like a raptor who loves eggs and he sings a song about eggs. Okay, yeah, I love that egg culture. Culture is really strong. Um. Okay, so

this is our podcast. It's my birthday, It's your birthday, Happy birthday. Jamie thinks a few things right at the top. So this is our show in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. We can chat about that in a moment, but I just want to point out that this is our second attempt at doing this episode on the shape of water. What if we failed again? That'd what if the egg thing was what took first? It

was the three eleven. Yeah, let's tell let's let's tell them what happened because it was I think as it was happening, we were having so much fun, but we were also like a little we're scaring ourselves a little bit because it's never happened, unprecedented truly. So what happened is that we were all set to record an episode on the shape of water, totally prepped. It wasn't a matrix situation. The intentions were clear and we were going to do it. We however, both had a heart out.

We only had about ninety minutes to record, and so we start recording. We started talking and we were silly. We were feeling silly. We hadn't recorded an episode in a while because I am on tour in Europe, so you know, we were just catching up. The vibes were loose, and they were so loose that you got an email about a three eleven the music group cruise, which I still don't quite know what this could be. Three eleven the band? Yeah, yeah, and so are they do they

perform on the cruise? Is it three eleven Themes? Okay, all of you above, Okay, Yeah, they're definitely there. I don't think that they have anything anything else going on. Needlessly cruel, needlessly cruel. They're on the cruise, as the point, right, So this, like this alert that you got about this cruise, sent us on a spiral in which we did not recover from and we spend a full hour and may

never we will never recover from it. So I believe at the time of the release of this episode on the Shape of Water, Matrons will have been exposed to the episode that we are talking about right now. This kind of we went off the rails and had a silly time episode. I don't think, and and and just to plug the Matrion while we're while we're here, hello, I think it's been a while since we've had truly off the rails Matreon episode. It's that's not usually how

it goes. We usually, you know, use the Matrion to cover popular requests. We don't usually have guests on the Matreon. It's a more loose format, but it's the same Bechtel cast flavor. But occasionally, I would say, maybe once a year there's an episode that is just like what's happening, and this is that episode, and we hope you enjoy it. But but nonetheless, we had prepared for an episode, so we're doing it now. So I don't know, I know,

I feel focused, I feel good. The egg thing, we were in danger for a second, but I I texted you the egg anecdote, I think, and so now you have it, and now I released that perfect So from my mind, we can move on to talking about what the Bechtel Test is, which is a media metric created by Queer cartoon is Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel

Wallace Test. Our version is this, two characters of a marginalized gender must have names, they must speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man, and ideally it's a substantial, meaningful conversation. Yes, so that's the criteria, Like two women discussing eggs exactly is an example that's not the Let's be clear, there's other ways that That's not the only way the test can work. Yes, absolutely, um So, today's episode is on

the Shape of Water and this is your big birthday episode, Jamie. So, why don't you tell me, tell us all the listeners out there in the world your relationship with this movie. Well, yeah, I guess I am mostly telling newer listeners of the podcast because you you were there for my Shape of Water face, and um so were many of our Day one rider dies I had a whole thing. I did a stand up joke about it for years. Really loved the Fisherman for the Shape of Water, was like, why

is this horny? Slash? I love how horny this is? Slash Wow. Doug Jones like, that's a Pandora's box of my favorite thing in the world, which is obscure details about character actors, Like, there was just a lot of elements of this movie that was tick tick tick tick ticking. For me. Um. I love del Toro, and I also love like I'll tend to skew more towards um del Toro's sentimental side of his catalog mainly just because not yeah, mainly just because I'm not much of an action person,

so I'm very excited. It's like, oh, this is maybe the most sentimental one. Yeah, I really enjoyed this movie when it came out. I didn't think about it critically very much. I know, I feel like when it came out, I feel like it was like people generally liked it, but it was I think maybe considered to be a bit overrated in terms of how much awards attention it generated.

But I didn't really care. I mean, I was like, Del Toro won an Oscar for this, and I feel like people never win the Oscar for the movie they're supposed to the point is that they get it, So would it maybe have made sense for him to win for another movie? Sure, La Brenth Pansla exactly. Um, I remember seeing a lot of takes and that I'm like, you're not even wrong, but I just, you know, leave Leaf Deltara alone. Where they that was all the same

year to get Out came out. They're like, get Out should have one best picture that's the most impactful, memorable, good picture. You might be right about that, I think, I mean, certainly cultural impact and good okay, but we're not here to talk about I don't want to hit the boys against each other. I love Shape of Water. It makes me cry. It was It was interesting too prepare this episode because I do think that there is a lot to talk about in terms of the subjects.

It doesn't do well on or or UM. I think that, you know, in the five years, I can't believe it's been five years since I was seeing Titania and or Shape of Water in theaters every day. I guess also, I do think that this is a thing like where end of a bit of a low for for your girl, you know, Jim, and I feel like, you know, the movies that you become attached to when you're at a bit of a low in this era, Shape of Water, in Titania, they're just always a little special to you.

But like, yeah, well, I think that there's a huge um conversation about disability, in particular in the portrayal of disability in big movies that needs to be had About this movie, I'm excited to get into it, and I'm excited to get horny for the fish Man again. It's been a while. I remember how much you loved his fish but and fish abbs, I think you were really isolating certain parts of his fish body and I was objective hying him fish thigh gap, I want to say

as well, he did have it. Oh my god, I forgot not the thigh gap. I forgot that. I was really fixated on the thigh gap. Yes, wow, I wonder what's happened to because I wasn't. Maybe maybe I'm making progress on my own body issues because the thigh gap didn't leap out at me this time, so progress question mark. We don't know. Could be that said, yes, the sexty fish does have a thigh gap, um, and that's just

those are beautiful truth. I don't think that they ever ended up making an action figure of him, which I feel like I need to check. But I feel like it was that was amissing. It was kind of just like much like I was waiting for the Babu Frick Plushy to come out. You're guess it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time. I thought that the having the fishman in my home would be inevitable, but it hasn't happened. Well, maybe you have to open your

birthday present from me just kidding. Life Dug just pops out of a cake. I don't want to make any promises I can't keep. So maybe what's your history with the Shape of What Terror? I saw it in theaters I think only one time. Unbelievable. I think my favorite thing about this movie is the production design, and I like the story generally, but it's not my favorite of Del Toro's and I just didn't feel that much of an attachment to it. I was kind of flabbergasted that

it one best picture. Yeah, I thought there were other movies that were far more deserving, and I was so I kind of like ended up having some resentment toward it because of that, and then I never engaged with it again. So I don't I like this movie. I don't love it. It's just I feel kind of maybe even neutral, I suppose about it these days. Um, but

it was interesting revisiting it. I noticed, Um, do you remember when we covered a little princess and there was like this green motif and everyone was like, what does green mean in this movie? A Fonso Koran, what are you What are you trying to say with the green?

And he was like nothing, I just like green and I found I think maybe del Toro was doing the same kind of thing because so much of this movie is green or like little objects are just little flourishes in the movie are green, and it has a very similar like yeah, just like color palette and like lighting scheme as a little princess. And I guess other of

his movies. I mean, he's like pretty consistently like visually consistent in his work, and yeah, I think that's a major strength of his Again, but um, I was like, there's a lot of green in this movie. What does the green mean? And I just want I'm hoping that someone asks Garmo about it and then he's just like nothing, I just like green. We can't get into it here because this is another yet another, I think, the other

major derailer of our last episode. But the timing of this episode is kind of fun, not intentionally, but because the new trailer for Garamos, why am I okay, I'm not on a first name. Garmo dels Horos Pinocchio movie just came out. We can't talk about Pinocchio anymore, No, we cannot today, And if you don't know why, it's because we accidentally talked about Pinocchio instead of the Shape of Water for four to five minutes. Yes, wow, I it's like genuinely like my chest tightened a little bit

because I still want to talk about Pinocchio Gate. Look it up out of the Pinocchio is coming to the Matrian this November. Okay, shape before Okay, so we both saw it in theaters. I really was attached to it at the time. I haven't watched it in a couple of years. Honestly, the moment passed for me. Unlike Titania, which I still watch constantly, I don't watch The Shape of Water constantly, So it was interesting to revisit it with a few years distance. Still, I mean, the cast

of this movie is rather wild. Character actor after character actor just top marks across the world casting wise. Okay, let's talk about the movie. Let's do it. Let's take a quick break first and then come back and talk about the movie. Okay, we'll be right back. Splash blash, and we're back. So shall we get into what's going on? And what do we ever figure out? Do we figure out what the shape of water? Oh? Like what literally like the answer to that question, like, what is the

shape of water? Is it just the shape of Doug Johns oh with his butt and abs and is it just that shape? Because I'm fine with that? Could be that it could be something a little more poetic, like what isn't the shape of water or something? You know? Whoa what it? And the shape of water could be? Didn't ask that question? The shape of water is an idea to lie? You tell here? Oh my gosh, okay, sorry, what happens in the movie? Okay, So we open on an image of like the interior of an apartment that's

completely underwater. We're also getting voice over from someone who tells us about yes, uh this tale of love and loss and a monster. And then we meet Eliza. That's Sally Hawkins k Mrs Brown from Paddington. It is so wild we forget. I think we mentioned this in our Paddington episode with Demio di Jui bay Um, that you get to see Mrs Brown's nipples in this movie. It's very alarm mantelis Paddington. Imagine Paddington seeing shape of water. I don't think he's allowed. Oh my god, how old

is Paddington? Paddington is a child? Question mark? And why does he have the voice of an adult man because bears and why can't you? And then he can't be a child. Wait, hold on, he can't be a child because he goes to adult jail and he has the voice of an adult man. He's an adult, he's but that doesn't mean he should see his mother's nipples. I'm just saying, Yeah, these are some interesting questions, much like what is the shape of water? How old is Paddington's

will never know? They should have sent Paddington, They would have sent him to Juvie, which I also would have been interesting. Okay, we're getting into derailing territory. We're gonna focus up again. Okay, Okay, So we meet Eliza. We are in I don't know if it's like the late nineteen fifties, early nineteen sixties, it's like Cold War era USA. Yeah, post World War Two. It seems like we're in the trenches because there's a lot of Eastern European space race

specific stuff. Yes, yes, and we are in Baltimore, Maryland. Ever heard of it? Oh? With nineteen sixty two sixty two? Okyonically got it. So we see Eliza wake up and go about her morning routine, which is that she boils an egg, she draws herself a bath, she jerks herself off, and then she pays a visit to her neighbor Giles played by Richard Jenkins, and all of his cats as well.

A lot of cat visibility in the movie, a lot of cat nipples as a result, a lot yes uh, and then one cat casualty, which is the worst part of the movie. Can't believe that's in the movie. Okay, of all the things to cut that could be it, Yeah, yeah, Okay. It becomes clear that Eliza does not speak with like verbal language. She uses sign language to communicate. She then

gets on a bus and heads to work. She and her co worker Zelda played by Octavia Spencer, work the night shift cleaning some kind of like science slash government facility. And then, while Eliza and Zelda are working the kind of like scientists and lab technicians, various other personnel bring in this super secret, super important asset that is going to be housed at this facility, and whatever it is, it's alive, and it's in a large tank of water, and it's a sexy fish guy. And then it turns

out to be a very sexy fish guy. Eliza is very curious about Eliza is very curious about what this might be, and she kind of like makes a ton of little bit of contact with it. We like see its hand, but then it's kind of like whisked away and the crowd goes wild. I saw this in theaters several times, and you know, like you could tell who was there for certain reasons. And I guess that's all

I have to say about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we also meet Dr hoff Stetler, who's played by Michael Stallbarg And I don't know if we have covered a movie with Michael Stallbarg in it, but now I know that cat friend of the cast, Katherine Leon, yes um of This by Kids episode. Of course. Yeah, she had

like a Michael stallbarg newsletter for a while, Is that correct? Yeah, the Daily Barg in which she would just stick to Daily Bark send out a photo of Michael Stallberg to any subscribers of this newsletter just to say, hey, here's

another photo. Is it still active? I don't think so. Ah, yeah, sad, there's I mean, the this movie's Michael game is very strong, because we're about to get Michael Shannon playing his in his iconic role Patriarchy the one guy, which is a role he plays often and well, yes, yes, indeed, So Michael Stallberg is Dr. Hoff Stetler, who is the kind of lead scientist overseeing this asset, and Michael Shannon plays Strickland, who is a very sinister man overseeing the security of

this asset. Yeah. Then we cut to the next day and Eliza and Giles go out for some pie. Is mostly so that Giles can try to flirt with the cute guy who works at the pie place. Then the pie. I love how the pie is disgusting, like no matter, like the pie is objectively bad and the only reason that he's getting businesses because there's a crush and there's a there's a crush. I mean, how much money have we all spent because of a crush? I don't want to talk about it. Oh my god, I went to WrestleMania.

What anyways? Okay, another story for another time because now just chew on that. But the pie is green. The green motif is starting green green chemical Google. Yes, So we see Eliza at another day at work. Something happens in the lab and Strickland rushes out with some of his inger's missing, and Eliza and Zelda are called in to clean up the bloody mess. And in this lab there's a large pool of water that the asset is

maybe living in, swimming in um. And then Eliza meets this quote unquote asset, which turns out to be a sexy fishman played by Doug Jones, and the crowd goes wild. Yes, we love him, he's so handsome. What a review. It is a great reveal. That is such an iconic scene. I feel like, even if you don't like the movie, or you think the movie is like a little bit forget well whatever, some of the common criticisms of this movie,

that's just like not his best. The little peak that the fish guy does when he's looking at the egg and they're logan eye and you're like, this rocks. That happens in a in a couple of scenes from now okay, sorry with sorry, I getting ahead of myself, because it's my favorite scene in the whole movie when they I love a meat cute and this is a real this is a stressful beat cute, but it's good. Michael Shannon is a Leo that I guess that makes sense. He

know comes his birthday. By the time you're hearing this, he'll be it'll be his birthday. Yeah, it's and it's Leo season. I was going to make a hilarious joke that it's not a meat cute, it's a fish cute, because in this case, meat is like an e a t. It's a past paste cute, and Leo something to think about, something you think about. So in this first little encounter here, Eliza and the Fishman have kind of a little moment, but they are interrupted when someone comes in and he

disappears into his tank of water. Um. So, the next day, Eliza goes back into the lab and comes used to face with the fishman. This is the scene you're talking about. And at first he's like raw, but then she offers him one of her hard boiled eggs and then he's like raw. He's like what now, and he grabs it and then he dives off into the pool. Yeah. Then

Strickland has a talk with Eliza and Zelda. He points out the scars on Eliza's neck and we learn that they are from an injury she sustained when she was a baby and it's why she is not able to speak. Right. Then, Eliza continues to visit the fish Man under the guise of like cleaning the lab, but basically there's a montage where she brings him a bunch of eggs, she plays music for him, she teaches him some sign language. They're falling and it gets pretty flirty. You're falling in love.

She dances and he's like, who, good dance. It's getting it's getting pretty spicy in the lab. And who sees this but Dr Hoffstetler. And then it's revealed that he is a Russian spy who gives information about the Fishman to his Soviet comrades. But his helpful thing is like, yeah, I'm a spy, but also I love science, and I think this fishman should be protected and like studied, and you know, he's not like other spies. He's not like

the other spies. And we'll I don't know if I like figured out a way exactly to work this into the recap. But the whole reason that they have captured this fish man is that he is able to kind of switch his breathing mechanisms from like breathing with gills underwater to breathing presumably with lungs above water like the air.

And they're studying this because again, both the US and the Soviet Union are in this space race, and they're trying to figure out, oh, can we like use the anatomy of this fish man and kind of replicate that so that we can like kind of use like how do astronauts breathe in space kind of thing? So they're like studying that. Any Way, I didn't really recognize that that was what they were studying. And I've seen this

movie ten times. There's a lot of things that just kind of whoop right over your head, and that's okay, I don't go kinda come to this movie for science, alright. So one day Eliza sees Strickland torturing the Fishman and then some military personnel come in, and oh, this is when we find out that, like they're studying him to give the Americans an edge again the Soviets in the space race. So Strickland wants to basically kill the Fishman

and dissect it. Dr Hoffsettler is like no, and Eliza overhears all of this, so she starts to hatch a plan to rescue the Fishman because she feels this very intense connection with him. Not only have they been like flirting romantically, but she feels that they are very similar in that they can't speak with like verbal language, but they can still communicate with each other, and she feels that he sees her for what and who she truly is in a way that she doesn't feel other people

see her exactly. So she begs for Giles to help her with this rescue mission, which he refuses at first, but then he changes his mind and agrees to help. So they start to plan out this like high slash rescue, and then it's time to execute it. Dr Hoffstetler realizes what Eliza is doing and decides to help her get the fishman out of his tank, but Strickland starts to figure out that something's going on, as does Zelda, who was like, Eliza, what are you doing? But then she

helps Eliza. Yeah, Strickland does the opposite. Meanwhile, Michael Shannon's fingers are rotting off of his body and you're like, it's a metaphor of it's still nasty to look at yucky yucky, and then you're just like, Wow, who's the real I mean, it's like this movie you very much like know where it's going and what I was trying to tell you but I kind of enjoy a lot of parts of it. When you see the fingers start to fall off, you're like, he's the bad guy. Wait

a second, is this say and he's the monster? This is this a version? Yes? Yeah. So Eliza and Giles successfully get the Fishman into this van that Giles is driving and they escape, but Michael Shannon is like, who, what is what's happening? Bang bang, and he's like firing after them, but he doesn't know who has committed this robbery of the fishman. It reminds me very much. Did you ever know you you wouldn't have watched Hainold's right, Um, I know of I know, I know it, but I didn't.

I didn't really watch it. The scene where they're getting the fish Man out of the lab reminds me very much, and I doubt that this was an inspiration at al Toros is just similar. But one of my favorite episodes of Hey Arnold, Shout Out, Hey Arnold Heads is when Arnold's grandma, who's like kind of this renegade, they go to the aquarium and they see a a big sea turtle and like there's graffiti all over Michelle. He's not

being well taken care of. He's really sad, and then they helped the sea turtle escape into the sea, and it's a similar heist and it's also a similar like he was read to be captive, how is he going to survive in the wild? That TV show is capturing

heavy themes for children. Seriously, there's a whole section on Wikipedia scholarly journal Wikipedia where it's like various people accusing del Toro of plagiarism because apparently there are several existing movies or plays or things like that that have very similar stories to what degree to like people having sex with a fish, because that might just be parallel thinking, right, And I mean every everything was like concluded as it was just parallel thinking and that like he didn't played

wise anything, but like one of them, for example, is I think it was a movie about a cleaning lady who helps a dolphin escape from a facility. I forget what the other ones were, but helping helping any captive animal escape zoo aquarium type situation, that's a pretty common theme. It's just that you're not usually like dating them. I think that's kind of the X factor. Yeah, I'm pretty sure no one had sex with Willie in the movie Free Willie. But that's what that movie. I haven't seen

that Willie escape, but we don't know. I forgot. I forgot about Free Willy, who's in Free Willie. I feel like there's like, you know what I will It's probably like Devin saw Wall or something. I actually never saw Free Willie. I feel like, probably see me. I've probably been in the room and Free Willy was on, but Free Willy was like not really my jam And I'm like, I don't even know what I'm saying when I say that, I don't know where I got stars Jason James Richter,

who Dad Lori Petty is in it? Um, Yeah, I don't know where I got Devin Salwa. I feel like anybody was probably just like and with all due respect to Jason James Richter, Um, you know a young man with banks, I feel like that's Devin Sawa Codd. I understand where you were going. It was the nineties, after all that Infinity bang, that Cowlick. Where did that go? How did everyone suppress? Now? I still have mine? I

still have mine. It's a problem that I also wanted to say really quick on the topic of um fish sex stories. There was another piece of popular media that came out around the same time about a woman falling in love with the fish. I Believe a fish Man the Pisces, which is a book by Melissa Broder. I haven't read it, but it was like a pretty popular novel that came out a couple of years ago. So, for for whatever reason, this is on the minds and

hearts of the collective. Beautiful. Yeah, that's a beautiful story. Thank you. I didn't write um when are they? Oh no, I was gonna say something, but it's going to derail the episode. Wait and say it really quick though, Okay, and then we just have to move on. When is the biopic coming out about me watching the animated movie Legend of Titanic and falling in love with tentacles, the giant optoples, not tentacles. You can't just bring up tentacles.

You're soul, right, That does derail everything. Tentacles. Okay, really really really really really quick again. Listeners of the Matreon will already know Tentacles is kind of fatal pass cannon. So there's an animated movie about Titanic. It was made in like five different countries. It's very kind of dissonant in terms of it is like a mix of an American tale because there's there's mice on the Titanic. Then there's also the plot of the movie Titanic sort of

happening as well, and then what's the third movie. There's like a third it's like sort of vaguely Little mermaid ish but like not really, but you do see a lot of like the Tentacles part. Yeah, yes, there's a lot of underwater characters, like major characters like sharks and the sharks bullies. Look, they weren't thinking too hard, like okay, yes, So it's like the Little Mermaid story, the American Tales story, and then just regular Titanic and it's all taking place

on the Titanic. It is sensory overload. The bullied in this movie The Titanic. It doesn't go the way you're expecting because we've been we've been gassed up with this for the most of the movie. Seemingly unrelated story of gigantic octopus who kind of fluctuates in size throughout the movie. Sometimes he's it's the size of a regular octopus. Sometimes he's the size of the Empire state building, or let's

say the Titanic or Titanic. So anyways, he's getting bullied, but then he, like Belie, learns to believe in himself. His name's Tentacles full and then he um, he whole. He's so he's Titanic sized when it suits him, and he ends up holding the Titanic together with all of his His ticles are so mostly all and he's also like fleshy colored. He's pink, yeah, he's. And so in this version of the Titanic narrative, there are no casualties.

Everyone on Titanic survives because he holds the ship together after it hits the iceberg and then breaks in half. But he's like no, no, no, no, on my watch, Tentacles, and then he saves everyone. So anyway, that's legend of Titanic. It's on YouTube if you want to watch it, which you should. Back to Shape of Water, I would watch that movie if that you described, though, thank you me falling in love with Tentacles, which I have done. So

where's the biopic? Alright, So Tentacles Eliza brings the fishman back to I think they're in giles apartment and they put him in the bathtub. So he's like kind of chilling there, and Eliza's plan is to release him into the ocean on the tenth of the month, when the water in the canal will be high enough from the rains to spill into the ocean. So they're going to release him when that happens. So back at the facility, Eliza and Zelda have to just like play it cool.

They have to pretend like they don't know what's going on, which works out pretty well because the people who work at the facility thing a like highly trained special forces like Soviet group of people pulled off this heist, although Strickland is like suspicious and he's like something doesn't add up here, and he's also fixated on um for for nasty,

exploitative reasons. He's fixated on Eliza. Yes, So back at Giles is the Fishman ventures out of the tub and he does eat one of Giles's cats, which Giles does not really have much of a reaction to. I will say, he really takes his stride in a way that it's like I don't think it would have been inappropriate or even mean to have a bigger reaction than that. I think he's he he's great about it, but you're like, wow, did you even like, did he just kill your least

favorite cat? Because he does have like five cats or something like that. Brutal, brutal, that's very like Victorian era approach to having children vibe where you're like, well, I still have enough laborers for the farm. You're like, jeez, seems a little callous. So he eats one of Giles's cats and then he scratches Giles's arm and then runs away. So Eliza rushes home and finds the Fishman in the

nearby movie theater. She brings him back, puts him in the bathtub, and then they have this sexy little moment and then Eliza gets naked and gets into the bathtub with him. Cut to her on the bus with a big smile on her face, and then at work she uses sign language to explain to Zelda that the Fishman has a fish dick that comes out of a little

opening in his thigh gap. Top tier reaction from Octavia Spencer, Uh, he got that, it's she's she's I wish that her role was um it's I mean, it's like pretty big at this movie, but I wish I wish it was even bigger um. But that that reaction alone, I mean, yeah,

what can you say? It's perfect? No notes. So then Eliza goes home again, and this is when we get the famous scene where Sally Hawkins fills the entire bathroom with water and Fox the fish Man on screen, which causes all of this leaking, and Giles was like, what the fund and he opens the door and all the water gushes out, very similar to a scene in Paddington when Paddington's in the bathroom full of water high Jinks and Sue and then the door opens and all the

water comes gushing out, only this time, which I'm like, in this movie, is that a metaphor for like them orgasm? Ng? Not sure, it's just to wow, makes you think it could be, could be? And then so Giles is like what And then Eliza is like hugging the fishman and then she just kind of like smiles and shrugs. She's like, it is what it is. Also, it turns out that the Fishman has healing powers, and I didn't always forget

that he has healing powers. Yeah, because it's introduced kind of late into the movie, and I'm sure we'll mention this in in the discussion. But at one point we learned that some entity was like digging for oil in the Amazon rainforest. They found this fish man and brought it back to this facility. But they described that this fishman was like revered as a god by the indigenous people living in the Amazon, and it could be that he was like revered as a god because he has

these healing powers. This is all kind of like very gloss stover and if like you get up to go to the bathroom during that scene, like you will entirely miss this part. But basically, he has these healing powers. He heals giles is scratch on his arm. He also grows some hair on giles bald head, which we know that he's very self conscious about. And then I forgot I always forget about that as well. And then something

I always forget about. There's this like kind of fantasy scene where Eliza speaks and then she starts singing, and then there's like this whole like black and white fantasy song and dance scene between her and the fishman and they're dancing and it's like very like classic Hollywood. There are some issues with that kind of thing. That's another thing where I was just like, mmmm, there are better ways to Yeah. Anyways, um, well we'll get to that too.

Yeah kind of. That was like heavily featured in the marketing for this movie, but I kind of forget about it because it's such a I think, uh huttable moments, throw away moment. Yeah, you're like, oh, this is a very expensive cutaway. Right. Meanwhile at the lab, everyone is like, where's the fish. We gotta find the fish, and the Soviets are like, hey, Michael Stallberg, where's the fish? We wanted its dead body? So everyone's looking for the fish.

Hashtag where's the fish is trending in Twitter. Yeah. Then we realized that the Fishman's health is failing and he needs to be released into the ocean a sap. There's a scene where hoff Stetler's Soviet comrades shoot him, but then Strickland shows up and he kills the comrades and he's like, what the fuck, hoff Stetler, you're a spy.

You were speaking Russian. And then as hoff Stetler is dying, he lets it slip that it was the cleaning crew who stole the Fishman, and Strickland realizes, oh, it must have in Eliza and Zelda. Yeah, he wanted I wanted to vibe check on this. I was sort of like feeling betrayed by Hofstetler at the end because like he's dying, why sell them out at that point? Like for what reason? I had the same thought. I feel like that was a little bit of narrative convenience of like, we need

to get Michael Shannon his info. But I felt like that was like undercutting who we had grown to find that character to be like a complicated like he wouldn't give away the agendas of people who's like who he felt were good in acting towards the greater good, and that was like his whole journey because Octavia Spencer, because this movie is like really let you know how it feels about things, like Octavia Spencer literally says to his face, you are a good man, and then he does that.

It was dissonant. I agree, it just felt like a plot device, almost hum Anyway, it's not the biggest deal, but I was I always like, I that's another moment that I forget about, where you're just like, couldn't he have like found some evidence instead of like undercutting that whole Because I thought that was like a really good job by Michael Stillbar too. I wonder what the Daily Bark had to say about it. I don't remember. Unfortunately, I'm going to guess positive. But yeah, no, I had

the same thought. But this allows Strickland to like kind of figure out that it was Eliza and Zelda who had something to do with the Fishman being stolen. So first he goes to Zelda's house to question her, and her husband tells Strickland that it was Eliza who was responsible for this, you know, the stealing of the fishman. So then Strickland goes to Eliza's but she and Giles have already left to go release the Fishman into the water.

But Strickland figures out where they're headed because they're going to the docks, and he goes after them. Cut to the docks, Eliza and the fishermen are saying goodbye, Strickland shows up. He shoots the fish man, he shoots Eliza, but then the Fishman uses his healing powers to heal himself. He slashes Strickland's throat, and then he takes Michael Shannon line that you're like, he's really delivering this line that you're like what he's like you are? I can't wait

for Tann out of time. Do you remember how Michael Shannon was literally an eight mile Sometimes I just forget how deep his filmography is. No, I don't remember that in Kangaroo Jack and eight Mile. What a career? Wow? I know what can't he do? His early filmography is really funny because he was just in like he all over the place, CEC Will Be Demented, Pearl Harbor, Vanilla Sky, eight Mile, Kangaroo Jack, Bad Boys Too. He was in a movie Whoa because he calls they have bony Man.

What a legend. Wow. It's a short film, but he played Walt the Sam bony Man. WHOA. I wonder if that's about a man and who gets bitten by a radioactive zamboni. That would be really wait wait, hold on, we have to collaborate INNA's because it gets turned into like an ice situation. Well yeah, oh my gosh wow. I was just looking at his filmography to just confirm that it was in fact him and that I remember seeing an eight years ago. Yeah, I guess you're right.

Was um okay? So Strickland is murdered by the fish Man and then the fishman takes Eliza's limp body and jumps into the water with her. She seems to be dying, but he turns the scars on her neck into gills, and then she seems to come back to life and she's healed. Although so one interpretation is that she's alive

and they live happily ever after underwater together. Another interpretation is that that's kind of like a fantasy and she actually dies, kind of like how Pan's Labyrinth ends, where the main character in that movie dies, but then she's kind of like reborn as this princess in Labyrinth World. Um. Anyway, so different interpretations of the end, but that is how the movie ends. So let's take another break and we

will come back to discuss. And we're back. I just had a during the break, I you know, dipped in my little pool, my little tank of water, and I had a little bath, the tank of water, the tank of water. Okay, where shall we begin? I would if it's a city, I would like to start with talking about I think the main criticism surrounding this movie that is extremely value. I even trying to like put my

self in brain. I remember this being discussed when the movie came out, but it was not central discussion at all, And so I want to talk a little bit about how disability is portrayed in this movie. As always, we're interested if, if, if we have listeners with disabilities that

would like to share their perspective. I've seen kind of a wide variety of takes on it, but I mean the first the first issue is one that we've discussed on the show before, which is, you know, Eliza does not speak, she has a disability, as she's not played by a disabled actor. So this is something that happens all the time. I feel like it's very often presented as like, obviously there are many, many, many talented disabled actors that would have been more appropriate for this role.

But I feel like instead there's I read a lot to this effect, and we've just gotten on the show before. There's sometimes like disabled parts are taken by able bodied actors as like a challenge and it's kind of an Oscar It's been sort of framed as like an Oscar baity thing to do, definitely, and I think that in the case of Sally Hawkins, that's um exactly how it played out right, And I think a lot of people

have commented on her good performance. I don't know, like, I don't know if that's the right word, but I mean, I do think that she does a good job in the movie. But although a lot of people have also pointed out that it's pretty obvious that she is not fluent or even very good at sign language, I was also having trouble confirming if she uses American Sign language. I saw some people saying that the sign that she uses in the movie is not entirely a s L,

but like some of it is. But then other people have confirmed that she is using a s L. I don't know enough about it to know firsthand, so I couldn't confirm if that is the type of sign she's using. I was also, yeah, I was saying criticism around it, but I couldn't find specificity. So if there's if there's anyone listening that could answer that, I mean, I'm very curious.

I just wasn't. Yeah, I wasn't able to find it. Yes, So that's the first problem of and again we've talked about this a lot on the show, of a non disabled actor being cast to play a character who is disabled, And I think that is one of the problems because basically everyone who worked on this movie is an able bodied person and as far as like consultants being brought in,

that didn't really happen. So it was like I wasn't I was looking for any indication that that had happened, and it had, which is I mean, I think for in particular, I was pretty surprised at that seems like a really glaring mistake. You would have thought, right, So I'm pulling this from a huff Post piece entitled how the Shape of Water makes People with disabilities feel less

human by at least Juan Shell. It basically says that huff Posts reached out to Fox Searchlight to ask whether there were any disabled consultants involved with the film, and a representative of the film said that, like basically in response that question said that to a s L coaches were involved during the production, but that appears to be the only consultants so right, which this seems like a pretty clear cut case of um, there should be that,

like you, you would need to have consultants involved from the very very beginning, not just as it pertains to

working with actors, which is definitely important. And it sounds like maybe Sally Hawkins didn't have enough time to even get to where she needed to be on that front, um, which I wasn't aware of because I don't I don't know as L, and so I that seems really frustrating for someone who who does speak as L to see it presented in this kind of like sloppy way, which I'm not saying that's the fault of the consultants, who knows, but it's like, you know, if del Toro wants to

have a disabled protagonist, great, but even you need to bring in a consultant or even better, a co writer who can shape that story from the jump and not just you know, the script shouldn't be locked without consulting, like yes, And because that did not appear to happen, there are some issues with the way disability is represented

in the movie. Um. Yeah, there seemed to be a lot of conflicting feelings from a lot of members of the disabled community, because on one hand, there's like, oh, you know, we're seeing um, a disabled woman with sexuality on screen that never happens. But then there's a whole a lot of other criticism that we will get into. Um. I would recommend everyone read a piece by Elsa yes,

Johnson Henry, I'm I'm not sure if pronounced that correctly. Yes. So, she's a speculative fiction author and editor who is legally blind and deaf. She wrote a piece about this movie entitled I Belong Where the People Are Disability in the Shape of Water on tour dot com t o R dot com tours my pub the publisher of the Hot Dog book famously Oh my gosh, no way, wow, congrats. So she wrote this great piece and I want to

pull some quotes from it. I have. I feel like I basically copy pasted the assay into my notes because it's really really like thoughtful and comprehensive. It's great, for sure. Let's exchange quotes, shall we see it? So? The first one I wanted to share is this Elsa says, quote the first time in years that I have seen a disabled woman sexually desired and indeed sexually active and loved in a film is by a monster. Monster. Hood and disability are an extra. And oh no, this word, I

never can say it. And inextricably inextricably yeah it's it's you gotta really enter it with coxtricably inextricable. Killed it. Wow? Okay, so inextricably linked in our genre. Characters like Smoke are barely human. Smoke from Star Wars are barely human, their faces marred by scars, which signal that they are evil. Disability and disfigurement are tied together. As one, Elsa's scars on her neck have been read as gills by some, a hint that her disability is in fact monster hood

all on its own unquote. So that's and this is something that we've talked about a fair share on the podcast, especially when it comes to horror movies, because horror is a genre that it's very very guilty of this. But it's not limited to horror movies, like you know that genre at all. This is something that spans across genre

where disability or disfigurement will be linked to a villainous behavior. So, um, that's kind of like where the movie, and it depends on how you interpret things, but like, this is definitely

one kind of reading of the film. Yeah, I want to share a quote from that essay as well, because I I do think that it's like the core issue because I and I do want to, like, yeah, acknowledge that a lot of what I was reading around this movie, and I think we should talk about this more in detail when we get to talking about sex anyways, But you know, having uh, like, I think that it's Elsa Shenson, Sir Johnson Henry who wrote that like she had never

seen a mainstream movie where a woman with a disability was centered as being sexually desirable, as like initiating sex and like, which I think is kind of a cool element of their relationship is it is very motivated by Eliza. Kristin Lopez wrote a piece in The Hollywood Reporter in which this is like a a big talking point of her piece of like the sexuality of disabled characters and how it's very rare to see. So yeah, but yeah we can. We'll we'll cover that more when we talk

about sex, babyc sex. Let's talk about fish sex baby. Um. But I just want to share that, Yeah, Like the the use of Eliza's disability seems to be strictly not strictly, but a lot of it is used as a metaphorical purpose versus just representing a disabled character in the world,

which is patronizing. As many writers as have um mentioned, you know, I I'm not saying that I think that del Toro intended it that way, but it's definitely you know, he presents this movie as a fairy tale, and fairy tales very often do this kind of stuff, So I want to share a little more of elsa stunts and Henry's as a that you know, sort of lands on like it's ultimately you know, Eliza isn't loved by a member of her own species, and the only way that

she's able to find acceptance is through possibly dying and definitely being with someone who is not other own species. So she writes, quote, society says that disability makes us lesser, makes us uneven humans. The worst of humanity looks at me with my one clouded eye and my one hearing year. It looks at me and says, I am half of what I could be. This isn't a projection. I don't

feel less than whole. I've had people tell me that I am lesser than them, that they couldn't imagine what it would be to inhabit my body, that they would rather die than experience what it is like to live in a disabled body unquote. And it does feel to me.

And this came up in a couple of essays that I read that Eliza says that directly in that speech that she gives to Giles of why she loves the fish span so much, is like she says, he doesn't I'm paraphrasing, but it's something like he doesn't know what I lack. So she's explicitly saying that she views her own disability as her lacking something versus that being this is the messaging that society has projected at her her

whole life. But it's like the way that it's written makes it canonically she views her own disability as being deficient, a lack she also, I think in in the movie Eliza says that she is incomplete, which, again, if you had consultants disabled consultants on the movie, a line of dialogue like that, I don't think would be in the movie.

It would be Yeah, Eliza's feelings about her disability, I think would be framed very differently if it were coming from the perspective of actual disabled people, who would have just a more informed perspective on how disabled people view and feel about their disabilities. So there's a quote from h writer named Amy Lowe in CBC Shout Out Canada um that I thought sort of like tied that together

pretty well. She said, quote I found that really unfortunate because it sort of reproduces the stereotype that nonverbal people can't express themselves in a way that's actually comfortable or natural for them. And then it also reproduces the stereotype that disability is like a cage unquote. So I think that the I mean, alliwes this whole storyline kind of lends itself to viewing her disability as a metaphorical storytelling tool rather than an element of who she is as

a person. And the other moment that seems to draw the most criticism we've already talked about briefly, which is the like old Hollywood flashback thing, which I would hazard to guess was like del tour. I feel like, you know, like, oh tour is often like romanticized past Hollywood stuff by a lot, and it's probably just like, oh, wouldn't this

be cool? But the text of that scene is that Eliza is sitting across from the fish man, overcome with how much she loves him, and then for one scene she quote unquote sheds her disability and is able to use her voice to sing, and they dance and like it's this like fantasy sequence, but the core of the fantasy is like romanticizing her shedding her disability instead of I feel like you can still have that same unmemorable sequence of them in a way that doesn't right exactly

like it without it romanticizing like, oh she would be I feel like it implies that she would be so much happier if she could speak. But yeah, and and that was on. I mean, that's not something that occurred to me the first time I saw the movie, but it's like absolutely true. And again, like you're saying, like if there had there been consultants or co writers and during the writing process, I think that that would have

been a very very easy thing to catch. And again, like another good reason to cast actors who have the disabilities that you're portraying on screen, because then, I mean, that's not to say that like because oftentimes when actors try to advocate for themselves, they're labeled as difficult and then they might get fired. But at least you would have yet another perspective saying, well, that doesn't really jive

with how people actually feel about things. So and I want to believe that, like del Toro is an empathetic

enough filmmaker to be able to receive that, right. I'm just fort in my mind, but I'm like, I feel like he would be up to I just am like, but it's it is so so wild that I feel like this is you know, it's it's theotour thing again, you know where it's just like some people, no matter how iconic incredible, need to be given notes, and people don't give them to them because they're um special directors,

too many yes men out there. Um. I would argue that the way the movie ends is also just kind of very telling of the representation of disability in this story, because, as I often tell my screenwriting students who, the way a movie ends does a lot to say how this movie feels about like the story it was telling, or like, you know, the kind of the theme of the movie is usually very clearly communicated in the final images and

final moments of the movie. So like, what you're trying to say with your narrative usually is like very clear

at the very end. So what happens at the end is Eliza is well maybe dies but also maybe is turned into a fish person and then lives hapfully ever with her fish boyfriend under the sea, So, um, let's see do let's go with that interpretation, which, going back to Else's piece in Towards dot Com, she kind of comments on how the end suggests that like disabled people should go and be with their own kind and says quote, I wish that I could just say, well, that's fantasy

and move on, but I can't. Not when I've literally never seen a movie in which a disabled woman is desired by a non disabled partner. Not when I know that my body is seen as less than desirable. Not and I know that subconsciously this film it means she deserves a freak like her, not a human like her unquote.

And then, um, just to share one more quote from uh, this piece also says quote, The conflict for me is here that, on one hand, I have always known in my soul that able bodied people see me as half of them, that they see me as less than whole, which is why I hate that in media such as this, we can only be desired by those who don't know any better unquote. So the way the movie ends, the whole romance between Eliza and the fishman, these are the implications. Yeah,

it's the ending. And also this is kind of a movie that, like I don't always remember how it ends, and like, after not saying it for a couple of years, I was like, oh yeah, oh no, they die like

it's it kind of reminds me. I feel like it that is a atronizing ending for a disabled character, and it also is giving me a little like another like classic tragic fairy tale element where like the Little Mermaid turns to foam at the end of the story, where it's just it also feels like there's maybe a whiff of misogyny mixed in there as well, which is again like a confusing thing to happen in a movie that seems to be really wanting to present itself, and the

way it was marketed and the way it was like Awards seasoned, was as a progressive reimagining of a fairy tale. So if that is the tack you're taking in promoting your movie, um, a glaring kind of turning turning away when it comes to disability, is I think, you know, kind of irresponsible and worthy of further discussion because it is, I mean, and we've been guilty of this in like

the early backdel cast days. Disability is so often left out of film criticism and discussion, and for a movie that's marketing itself as like, you know, because this movie does try to, and I think successfully in many cases, address a lot of society's prejudices. And I think it does.

Think it's saying something about disability, but it rings patronizing because it's like, oh, look, she got accepted by somebody, and like by a big old fish, and you're like, well, fuck you kind of and but like this this movie does, I guess I'm kind of transitioning into a different bucket

of discussion. This movie does at least touch on racism because this is happening in nineteen sixty two, around the Civil rights era that we see an example of just in general, I mean, like people of color in this movie are treated as lesser than and then most explicitly in that scene in the pie shop that just all of a sudden, like what I mean, I'm not I don't even mean this as a criticism, but like it turns out like Pieman is evil, um like really abruptly

like he because we've just seen him as like, hey, welcome to the pie shop. I'm that hot guy who sells pies. And then it was like, I'm homophobic, and then he's like, and I'm racist, and then the scene is over and it's I mean nineteen sixty two, and now there are certainly people like that. I was just like, whoa, whoa, and then the scene is over and it doesn't come back. Um, I have so here here are my thoughts on the matter.

So a lot of people point out when discussing this movie that like, yeah, it's it's an inclusive movie where you know, you have Uh, the protagonist is a disabled woman. Um, her best friend is a black woman, her other best friend is a queer man. And I think the movie is suggesting it like these are people who were on

the fringes of society in the sixties. Like these are marginalized people who became friends because of the kind of this common ground they share of being marginalized by you know, like white, able bodied just had to row Michael Shannon patriarchy. Mr Michael Shannon in the case of this movie specifically Michael Shannon. Yes, so that you have this like quote

unquote diverse cast of main characters. However, I felt that the way some of these characters were portrayed and characterized in the movie felt like it was leaning into some stereotypes where if you look at Zelda played by Octavia Spencer, I mean, she's doing an incredible job and she's you know, doing as much as she can with what she's given. But I like this very much falls into the like black friends supporting a white protagonist, and also I would argue,

like the sasty black friend stereotype. Yeah, I think that this movie like attempts to give her a little bit more characterization with a subplot with her husband, which I feel like doesn't really cut cut the mustard in that case, Like the only background you're going to be given is that she appears to be in an emotionally volatile relationship

with her husband. Um right, Like that's all you're going to give us for a background for a character that, as you're saying, like does not as aggressively as many movies,

but does fall back on some tropes. This movie feels very like because I mean because it was released early into the Trump years, and you can like I can't quite like put my finger on like how but you can you can feel that right in a way that like I don't even need to be like disparaging towards the filmmakers, but it's just like they're trying to be inclusive. They want to like make a statement, but it's like not really quite there, but they really think they're doing something.

It just it feels like a lot of early into the Trump years media, especially because this was trying to say everything at once and kind of saying not much and not executing it very well or very like intersectionally. Um right, because like this movie came out in but it would have been shot, you know, over the course of many months, if not like a full year before that. It would have been written and developed probably a couple

of years even before that. So like but by the time the movie comes out, Del Toro is like speaking with specificity about this where um, I think he presented also because um as like a story with parallels to the immigration experience, he said in an interview for this, which I think was like a lot of what he was touching on and was had to do with his personal connection to the story as well as you know, the really clear parallels between old monster movies Creature from

the Black Lagoon specifically obviously, but so he says, quote, I feel it as an immigrant that has been received by this country, but I feel there is a sort of the demonization of the other very present. I needed

to talk about the beauty of the other. So the way that he talks about this movie, I think he leans more on Doug Jones Fishman versus Eliza and Zelda and Giles, which I think is perhaps part of the reason that they are kind of softly stereotyped in some ways, where it's like the focus is we want the audience to empathize with the Fishman because he represents the monster the other that has been used throughout cinematic history. To look at me saying cinematic is happy birth the Yeah, mensa,

it's kind of not. But and I get and I and I like it. Seems like it was at the core of his mission to take this monstrous quote unquote character that has been used as coding for a lot of marginalized groups over the years, and to flip that and use this group of marginalized characters who see that in the Monster empathize with him and encourage audiences to

do the same. So he's encouraging people to look at media from the past a little more critically, even if you love it, always supportive of that like, I feel like I understand what his core mission is. I think it's like a good, righteous mission to have that fits into his body of work really well, because you could even you could argue that for a fucking hill boy, right, Like this is like a through line in his work

that I think is really cool. But it's like we're saying it's it's in the execution of like that message is kind of ring a little hollow if you're falling back on trope for the marginalized characters that are like surrounding the fish guy, right, Because like, again going back to Zelda, you have, like I feel like she's pretty one dimensional, and then the kind of one attempt to give her a little bit more dimensionality is with this like subplot with her husband, which also just ends up

playing into stereotypes of kind of like a deadbeat husband. It gives her this moment of empowerment over him because like because she stands up to him at the end, but like she has a girl boss moment. But that's also the scene where that happens is the first time

we are like really meeting that character. So ultimately it's hard to like I'm rooting for Zelda to have more of a character to work with, but it's like the movie makes it hard for you to be like woo who in that moment because we've never seen this guy before.

We just about him in passing. And then the other black characters in the movie are either you only get tiny glimpses of them, you really learn nothing about them, and it feels like a lot of times they're just used to show that another character is racist, or there's that there's a weird scene where Eliza is watching a newscast about civil rights protests and like violence enacted against protesters, and Giles just like turn that off, and it's like, what,

why is that? Why is I was kind of curious what the message was behind that, because I'm just like, right, you know, I would hear the writers out, but I'm just like, why include that? Like it just just really I think that that was just like again, a really lazy like way to remind you, like the era that

this is taking place. And but it makes Giles seem very dismissive towards the struggles of black Americans, which is doesn't appear to be canonical to his character at all, because later he is like fuck you to the home a phobic racist, right. It just feels like a way for the movie to acknowledge that that was what was happening at the time this movie takes place, because a lot of movies period pictures from that time or movies

that made in that time didn't acknowledge it. So it's like this movie is like, we're acknowledging that this was taking place, but it doesn't want to like engage with it.

Really it is. It does feel maybe this is like closer to the Trump era movie thing where it's like this movie I think has good intentions, but it's like biting off more than I can chew, and it's trying to like not like solve obviously, but it's like trying to address every societal ill and like especially really something that can be done in a two hour movie, especially in the Michael Shannon character, because like, my god, literally patriarchy.

The guy, Yeah, he's racist, he's a misogynist. He wants his wife to be silent during a sex scene that is for some reason in the movie, also sexually harasses Eliza. He's like one of those like America number one guys. He like very clearly has a very fragile male ego. He's very classist to the point where and I think there's like interesting commentary here that like no one even considers he's amazing at playing this role. Like Michel Shannon

as Patriarchy the Guy, he's very good at it. But it's like, like we've been talking about on the show four years now, beginning with Our Girl the Dragon Tattoo episode question Mark, Like that's just kind of and I and it's like, you know, I can like hear defenders of this movie, which I have a lot of love for. For the record, I chose it from my damn birthday movie. I can hear defenders of this movie being like, well, it's a fair it's a fairy tale, so the characters

tend to be a little broad. True, But like I feel like, you know, kind of cherry picking, like what we're subverting and what we're not. Patrio Archy the Guy is just not an effective storytelling tool. I feel like at this point that should be obviously maybe I mean, but also I think that there was an element of cathartic energy behind Patriarchy the Guy as a character early in the Trump administration. Um only because I, in my opinion, Um, this movie came out I think it came out post

Me Too, but was certainly produced Prey. But you know, because there were not a ton of public discussions about

misogyny that were treated as culturally serious. Seeing patriarchy, the guy taken down a peg and killed and blah blah blah, like there was some sort of I feel like there was a cathartic element to it at that time, but now that things have moved on, it's just like, even if it is a cathartic storytelling tool for some people, I'm kind of over and honestly, like, I just don't think it's a very effective way to make any commentary because, like we've talked about a million times, it's far more

likely to experience, you know, discrimination of many kinds from a guy that is just kind of a guy. And

that is the problem. And that's like why prejudice is so proudicious, because it's just cooked into people that you know, it's not like, I mean, there are you know, bigoted supervillains out there, unfortunately, and it seems like there's more all the fucking time, But it just doesn't feel like the most powerful storytelling tool to wrap up every single prejudice in one guy and then kill that guy and

be like we did um yeah, yeah, I was. I was certing to say that, I think the most the way that his characters is or maybe not even his you can't even attribute this to his character specifically, But the most effective use of commentary when it comes to people's prejudices in this movie is that no one even suspects Eliza as being the fishman heister like Steeler because of her like class and position, and no one even considers that it could be you know, like a cleaning

person could pull this off sort of thing. But other than that, yeah, I didn't. I thought that was like, that was one of the more effective Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Everything else was like, yeah, this just feels too cartoonish. Yeah, like it's it's very broad, I think. Also, I just wanted to single out because Michael Shannon represents so much in this world, I just wanted to like single out a few things that I

found particularly evil about him. He is openly racist to Zelda's character, like treats her as if she is like uneducated, to the point where she is not able to understand what is going on. Around her, or that she couldn't possibly understand what the people of higher class who are mostly white like could be doing. It's like incredibly patronizing. He fetishizes Eliza for her disability and patronizes her for it, and you know, attempts to like he he assaults multiple

people throughout the movie. Um, I would say that that sex scene with his wife, I mean, it's very fucking gross, but I think it also like really tiptoes up to the fucking line of fucking marital rape because he's like bleeding on her face and she's like, can you not bleed on my face? And he's like shut up. Didn't need that scene, But I guess we just need this to be the most evil guy in the entire world. He represents America or whatever America's were on in Corpse.

I don't disagree, but like I don't need to see him you know, harass, you know, like sexually mistreat his own wife. And also also she did this thing that did you catch this? She like smel his hand before she would have sex with him, which I think it means to imply that he is a serial cheater and comes home smelling like vagina. I didn't make that connection, but I can see it. It's just that marriage. I feel for his his wife. I feel for that character.

We don't get to know over very well. Um. But yeah, like I just want to single out especially like his fetishizing Alliesa's disability. I just think it's like it really grows certainly something that I know happens in the world. But it just seems like again another like big issue to like take a bite out of and then essentially make no meaningful statement about outside of like this is wrong, which is more than a lot of movies do. But it's just I don't know, Yeah, movies that try to

attack every single um problem in the world. There, it's just there's not the bandwidth. I guess not in the shape of water. Uh. Going on the continuing on that line of thinking, I wanted to touch on queerness in the movie, specifically when it comes to Giles's character Richard Jenkins icon love him, love all of his cats. His character's cats are I P the one r I P. I forget what the cat's name was, but he just

like soantly. Yeah. He literally was like Richard Jenkins is like the fishman ate my cat and the cat has a name? Does that pass the back to the new dog, ate my the new dog, ate my homework, the fish, and ate my cat. I can't come to work today. What was the cat's name? It was like it wasn't Sophocles, but it was like something like that. Anyway, it was, yeah, something like that. So Giles is a queer character, and we see him be rejected. We see he's a lonely person.

He constantly talks about how lonely he is all the time, and that's not coming from nowhere, you know, Like feelings of isolation and loneliness are certainly something that a lot of queer people have experienced throughout history. It's also implied that he is a recovering alcoholic covering alcoholic, and that he maybe was fired from his job, possibly for his alcoholism, but also possibly for being gay. That's yeah, and that's

never made explicitly. Like his side quest, you get more with Drials than with any other secondary character, but it's still like doesn't land in a very satisfying way because you're like, was he fired for? Like why even include addiction issues? If? Like it just was confusing again, too much,

too much, biting off more than it can chew. Yes, So for me, like to have your one queer character in the movie where like the movie goes out of its way to show him be rejected by crushed, and that only happens to motivate his choice to help out the straight protagonist and although like can we even call her straight when her sexuality includes being attracted to fish people?

My point is I felt like his queerness was just kind of used in the way that like racism and like the acknowledgment of the civil rights movement is just sort of like used to be like, well, yeah, we're

touching on these things. Yeah, we're being inclusive, but like not meaningfully or not in a way that felt like and only like tragically, like it's yeah, yeah, no one gets a satisfying romantic Like all the relationships in this movie like don't end very well because like Eliza and the fish Man have it best and they die, uh, like Giles gets rejected. Zelda gets like one up on her emotionally volatile husband who doesn't respect her, but presumably

they are. She's still stuck in that marriage. Hard to say, we know, really nothing's not like she's going to leave him. It doesn't seem like no idea. I guess maybe the only person who wins is Michael Shannon's wife because he dies, Because he dies enough, she's free from him. But she seems to really be into him and confused in a confusing way. It seems like she well confusing. Yeah, it just seems like relationship wise, um, it's all really sad at the very bleak um. But yeah, that's that's kind

of all I had. Did you have anything else you wanted to discuss? Um? I just wanted to quickly. I mean we we sort of talked about it really quick. But the fishman, I love him. I do think that the criticism of like do we understand why these two characters fall in love with each other outside of metaphorical purposes?

Not really, I would have to have seen more. Um. I also think it's like kind of very like fantastical and like whatever, turning one culture into like a monolith to be like, oh, he's a South American god and you're like what, um again? Like yet another of like it's clear that you know Americans are mining this area for oil. It's like the movie trying to comment on another societal ill but but not really doing much with it,

glossing over it. Yeah, I do think that like the way that the Fishman is characterized is generally pretty cool. Like I know that he is supposed to be canonically a movie monster, but I don't view him that way because we are like encouraged to empathize with him so much. Um, we know that he's been through a lot. We see, you know, how brutally mistreated he is and that being treated with compassion, and I really love him. I get

the issues surrounding the character. Um, but I thought it was like he and Eliza, you know, they fuck and we celebrate that, and that is that whole sexual relationship felt to me like, you know, she initiated, which is cool. You don't see that in a movie a lot. And um, you know iconic that there's an Oscar winning fish sex movie. That is really you can take that from something you simply can't forget. I do. I love the female masturbation is represented on screen because it rarely is as a

normal part of a morning routine. I love how horny that character is and just to um and it is normalized and it's normalized. And again shout out to Kristin Lopez's peace in The Hollywood Reporter will link to it as well. Um But Kristen writes about how disabled characters and media are often presented as lacking sexuality or not having any sexual desires, and that media about characters with

disabilities tends to focus on straight white men. So Shape of Water presents kind of an interesting subversion to these tropes because it focuses on a disabled woman and allows her to be a very sexual being. So, you know, I appreciate that. I appreciate a horny woman on screen.

I also liked that the movie didn't get like into her past sex life, because I feel like that is like, I don't know, I just this movie is so chaotically trying to address everything that it's like, we don't really know what her sexual past is, but we know that like she lets when she's like interested, she's going to let you know. And it seems like consent was above the board. Again you're like, it's a fish bed, So we don't know, but if it's felt, it felt like

there was some thought and care put into that. Yeah, this movie is I don't know if it's if it quite goes into my guilty pleasure category, but you know, on the right on the right day and the right mood shape of water. You know, it's it's it's a movie that I'll turn on sure because the cast is so good. The score also, that's like kind of out of our purview, but I think the score is so beautiful. With the fish and the egg, yes, it's I mean

it's a beauty. It's a deultura movie. It's like beautiful, and the fishman hot loves eggs and sex and has a thigh gap and really tight a little. But yeah, So ultimately I would say that it does pass the Backtel test, yes, in a way that but often don't come across on the buttle on. It passes the Backtel tests in a way that we don't often come across because we are used to seeing like verbal spoken communication and between characters of marginalized genders when it comes to

a movie passing. But for example, many scenes, well, actually a lot of the conversations between Eliza and Zelda are either about the fish man, Zelda's unappreciative husband, or Michael Shannon's character. Um, so they talk about men a lot. I think there are like isolated conversations where they are you know where they are not talking about a man um but communicating in a way that again, like we don't often see on screen because we don't often see

sign language being used as as a way of communication. UM, So just pointing that out that it's nice to see representation of of the Bechtel test being passed via sign language. Yes, yeah, I think that that is a rare pass. I also wanted to shout out that there is um there are two writers credited on this movie, obviously Girima del Toro,

but also Vanessa Taylor. She's written a ton she wrote the Divergent movie, she wrote on the new Aladdin movie, which was not her fault, ums Shape of Water, she wrote on Game of Thrones, like she's you know, cool, and she also this is they don't leave unless she wrote pabaliology likes, well, look, she's what I'm saying is I think that it is a net positive that you know there that del Toro had a woman as a

co writer. So there you go. There is you know, it's not just totally men men, men, men, men, men, men, men, men across the board and that was a what is the name of that start? Two and a half men. I almost had two Broke Men two and a half men. Yeah, that's the name of that show Men Men Men. Admit that's like the theme song, is it. I've never watched an episode Bravely, Oh well I had. Yeah, my my grandfather would have that show on in the background sometimes.

And yeah, the theme song is just saying men like twenty times. Very cool, very cool. Um, anyways, two broke Men, let's write it. Um yeah, yeah, so let's let's go to the let's hit the nipple scale, shall we. Let's do it zero to five nipples. Based on looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens for me, as

we've discussed the del Toro's intentions are clear. He wants to He wants to subvert the traditional monster movie, especially because there's been so much kind of like racist and other prejudice coding of monsters in monster movies throughout history. There is so I don't know if you can hear this very European sounding siren because I'm in Amsterdam, barrack. Um so cool. Sorry, that's had to be awesome. I can't even hear it's so awesome. Yeah, sorry for for

whatever is happening. But um, yeah, the the the intentions are clear, and it's clear that Garmo do Toro wanted to make a progressive story that subverts a lot of harmful tropes and he wanted to be inclusive in his narrative. Unfortunately, the execution of a lot of these things just doesn't quite land or hit the mark. You. You have various ablest implications, you have kind of a lot of tropes

as it relates to race and queerness in characters. Just a lot of things that again not executed very well, which makes rating this tricky. Um because the intentions are good, Uh, the execution isn't great. I guess I would give this like two and a half nipples to me. It's one of those like split on the middles. I agree with you. Yeah, I'm gonna do two and a half as well, because because of the reasons you are describing where it's like. I do think that there was a lot of good

intentions behind this movie. I think, even five years later, the kind of gaps in consulting the gap side gaps, the fish thigh gap first of all, an attack, uh fight or flight trigger activated. But yeah, like I just a movie that had good intentions that bit off way more than I could chew, and uh didn't do the consulting necessary to attempt to chew question mark. Right. But it's a sweet movie with it with a good intention, and so I feel like split down the middle makes sense.

Who are you given your nipples too? I will give one to Giles's Cats, one to Mrs Brown in the movie Paddington, and I will give my half nipple. Oh no, I want to give a nipple to Octavia Spencer because she's incredible and she's often cast in roles that her full potential is like, we don't we don't see her range. We don't see what she's capable of as an actor because many of the roles that she's cast in are just kind of fish food if you will. Um, But

she's great. So I'll give her one of my nipples, and then I'll give my half nipple to Mrs Brown in Paddington. Okay, um, yeah, I'm gonna give all my nipples to myself because it's my birthday. Oh my gosh, happy birthday, Jamie. Do you have anything that you would like to plug? I would like to plug my birthday. I would like to plug. Um. Yeah, you know, listen to Ghost Church listen a little listen A listen to my other stuff and Cathy Lolita, mensa, all the all

the friends are here. I would say, priorder the hot Dog book, but it's not possible yet. But oh believe will I be harassing you about that? I would say, mainly for a birthday present for me in advance. Just remember to be kind and patient to me when I inevitably don't shut the funk up about the Pinocchio Wars

in November. There's two Pinocchios coming out this year. I think that it's I can already feel a real fixation coming on, and uh, it's just gonna be something that's gonna be a lot on my mind in the coming months. So please bear with me as I really get into There's so many Pinocchio adaptations, and I can feel myself getting ready to watch maybe all of them. I want to go into the Pinocchio Wars with eyes wide open. Um.

I mean, I want to be a true witness. Welcome to the legal the legal observer for the Pinocchio Wars. It's I'm on the sidelines and I'm keeping score. Wow, Tom Hanks, geppetto versus, who's the other Geppetto. Wait, no, I don't remember Geppetto, not because he's he's no, he's Giminy turny Cricket. God, damn it, I don't remember. You're right. Oh god, I'm going to have a meltdown. Was I think it's like maybe a character actor that we don't

see very much, probably Doug Jones. Honestly, that would be iconic. I would not forget. It's it's a it's a British guy Garama del Toros Pinocchio versus Roberts a Mexasis. David Bradley. David Bradley is Geppetto, He's filch In Harry Potter. Okay, alright, well we gotta go. Yes. I can't wait for you to enter the Pinocchio verse. Jamie, Happy birthday, Love you so much and follow us, uh the the instagrams and

stuff Matreon. You're gonna wanna listen to that just off the wall Matreon episode in which we attempted to talk about shape of Water and we never got around to it. Five dollars a month gets you tubonus episodes, merch at t public dot com, slash the Epectel Cast, and with that it's my birthday, so we have to go to medieval times. Yeah yeah, bye bye