Set It Off with Jourdain Searles

an intersectional feminist lens. I didn't know that. Oh good, wow. But it's always a pleasure to be to be Well, it's not we're we're together? What was that like? Corny? Quarantine? Hashtag hashtag alone together. I'm like feeling mostly alone, but it is nice to see. It's nice to see you. Um, you know we're together in a sense. Sure, yes, digitally digital I know I can now only get zoomed to work on my phone and then sometimes my phone gets really hot, so look forward to that. Um. Anyway, great

Betel cast. Um. We use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point, and traditionally the Bechtel test determines whether or not too named women speak to each other about something other than a man. We are approaching it a little differently moving forward, which is that due to people of marginalized genders speak to each other about something other than a man. And that is, you know, just a way to broaden the test and make it a little

bit more inclusive. I don't think Alison Bechdel would disagree. Yeah, I think she Would's who made the test? Oh yeah, yes, sorry, I forgot to manage that. I wonder about that sometimes because Alison Bechdel is so awesome, But then do you ever wonder like because she wrote it in a single comic and then she's like, and that that is my letters. It's like if you said something like smart offhand and then someone was still talking to you about there was

a podcast about it thirty years later. Anyways, It's kind of That'll be like if um, in thirty years from now someone has a podcast called cat Facts with Caitlin and I'll be like, that's the thing you took away from my whole my body of work. You're like, I mean, it's a well and good, but there's just there was there was more there there was That's on us. I'm so excited for today's episode. Yes, we have a guest who are super excited about as well, all the way

from Brooklyn, New York. She's a comedian, a writer, and co host of Bad Romance podcast. It's Jordan's Searles. Hello, welcome, thank you for being here. You are? You have? What mar Mango, Margarita? Hell? Yes, what a good edition to the show. So we're covering set it off the nine film. Jordan, what is your relationship your history with this movie? Um, this is just one of the movies that I grew up with. I don't even remember the first time that

I watched it. I've watched it a million times since I was born in ninety two. And you know, so I feel like this this came out in and the moment that it hit cable, I was watching it all the time and it would play on B E T and Um, I've always liked it, but it's only recently that I've started to appreciate it in a different light, just because, like I think it was around the time like after Girls Trip, where people were talking about, oh, when was the last time that a bunch of women

were in a movie together? And it did really well and the only other times that I could think of was waiting to exhale and set off, and I couldn't think of anything before that where it was just like more than one black woman, you know on the poster, right. So I was thinking about it a lot, and then I recently rewatched it and then bought it. So now I own it and i'm and I am very happy

about that. And also since like I'm queer, I appreciate Queen Latifa's character way more than I did when I was a kid and I did not know that I was queer. Can't wait to talk about a bit more. Um, Jamie, what's your history with it? Uh? This is one of the many movies that I have seen in parts on cable TV, but it never sat down and watched it all the way through, beginning to end. I've seen many of the iconic scenes, but I had never taken in

the full movie. And holy sh it, this movie is so great, Like I I, there's so much going on researching. The production of the movie was very interesting as well, like this movie has everything going for it, and expectedly it was reviewed by like older white male film critics incredibly weird. The Rotten Tomatoes, Uh, you know gap between audience and critic. Um is telling it. I loved it.

What's your history, Caitlin? I had not seen this before, and I'm madam myself that it took me so long to see it, because, I mean, heist movies are right up my alley. Female driven heist movies are even more up my alley, so a few of them exist. Um, So again, I'm bummed I slept on this for so long, but I'm glad I've finally seen it because this movie rules, and it makes such important commentary and just does a lot of really cool stuff. So yeah, I'm excited to

talk about it. So should we just dive into the recap and go from there? A? Yeah, let's do it, all right. So we meet Frankie Vivica a fox Um. She works at a bank that gets robbed by an acquaintance of hers. This robbery turns into a violent, bloody shootout because she knew the robber. She gets fired um, and she is suspected of collusion by the police. The main person there is Detective Strode played by John C. McGinley. Thinks that she isn't I supposed to know who he was?

He was scrub. Yeah, but he was. He's in on like a lot of these like cop movies too, if you like look back at the nineties, He's in a lot of them. He's got resting cop face he does. The first thing I saw him in was Office Space. He plays one of the bobs, and that's what I know him most from. Well, I don't. I don't like him. Yeah, his character. I have a whole spiel on like the friendly white male cop trope in media. Oh yeah, absolutely hate it. It's so it feels like out of place

in this movie too. It was right, like why it didn't It doesn't make sense. Also because his partner as a black woman, and she does nothing and says not. I kept waiting for I was watching it with my boyfriend. I'm like, any second now, we're going to get some information about her character, and it just never comes. It never came. The same way I was waiting for um Cleo's girlfriend to speak aloud the entire movie. I'm like, she's going to speak in this She never says a word.

I don't think. It almost starts to feel like the movie is playing a joke on you because they cut to her so much, and I don't think we ever see her say a word anyway, but yeah, the cop is the way that the tone of the movie treats the cop is like this feels like studio note. And then I'm getting very ahead of myself. But the other detective, Detective Waller. I kept thinking the movie was gonna end with like the because I hadn't seen it before. I

was like, Okay, here's what's going to happen. They're gonna rob the one last bank. Detective Waller is going to show up and be like and like maybe catch them or something, but she's going to be like, you know what, you go on ahead, I'll just pretend like I didn't see you. And then she lets them go because like she's like, I get it, but that doesn't sort of kind of no, Yeah, Johnston McGinley gets that, gets that note.

He's the one that like, yeah, he it's it's so strange, like what what is even the point of her being in it at all? Because I mean, the reallyst like I don't know, like I've watched you know, a bunch of black movies from the nineties from this time, and a lot of them talk about how black cops are

complicit in enforcing white supremacy. We see this in Boys in the Hood as well, like especially in Boys in the Hood, and so it's weird that this movie doesn't seem to question her, except for the scene at the very beginning when Vivica like looks at her and like says something to I don't remember what she says, but you didn't even offer me a drink of water or something like. Yeah, And it's just like, and that's the

only part that we get. But I mean, other movies were way more I guess thoughtful about that, but I mean, that's like that just goes into my one big issue with the movie is that it likes cops too much, and while also making cops look really incompetent. So it just doesn't make sense to like them so much when they're so bad at their jobs. Cannot make sense of it. Yeah, the vibe is very much like, well, they're they're bad at their job and their murderers, but you gotta love them.

And it's like, we don't gotta love them, don't. I don't know what to make of it. And it does seem like that scene with Detective Waller and um and with Vivica a Fox at the very beginning, it seems like that is setting up something that will come back, but it's never This particular dynamic is never set off. I wonder they never set it off, but yeah, I wonder, right Like it sounds like from their research I did on the production, it seems like this movie went through many,

many drafts. So for where when stuff like that kind of flagged for me of like, this feels like a something that we kind of lost in the middle. I'm just assuming it's that, but I don't know. Yeah, and there's more to discuss there. But um, so we we meet three friends who we later we soon discover our Frankie's friends, but it's Stony Jada Pickett Smith, Cleo is Queen Latifa, and to Sean is Kimberly Elise and Um. They worked together as janitors at an upscale hotel. They

are all struggling financially. Stoney's younger brother Stevie played by chas Lamar Shepherd, reveals that he's unable to go to college after all because he didn't get a scholarship, and they were all hoping that he would be able to go to college and get out of this cycle of poverty, so that's kind of a big devastation for Stoney, especially because she helped raise them after their parents died. And then to Sean has a young child she can't afford

to pay for the babysitter um. And then Cleo's steaks are perhaps a little lower than everyone else in that she seems to mostly just want to fix up her car um, but those are kind of the what's at stake from a financial situation for these characters. Cleo thinks that they should rob a bank because the I who robbed Frankie's bank at the beginning made off with like dollars.

No one else thinks it's a good idea, yet then we see a scene with this creepy car salesman who wants Stony to come work for him, and he wants other stuff from her, two mainly sexual favors. She needs an advance, but he'll only give it to her in exchange for sex, and she's desperate, so she has sex with him, only to find out that her brother lied and didn't get into U c l A at all.

And then shortly after that he is shot and killed by police because they mistake him for being one of the bank robbers from the beginning of the movie and that I mean, that scene is devastating and it is fucking horrible. And then at the end of the scene, again like the the movie seems to kind of let the cop off a little bit in where he's just like, oh no, oh no, oh darn, we messed up. I

shouldn't have done that. You're like, why why? Yeah. Then they revisit the idea of robbing the bank and they figure that with Frankie's knowledge of banks, they think that they can pull it off without anybody getting hurt. So they decide to do it. They start scoping out this big, fancy bank where Stony meets Keith Blair Underwood's character Um, who works in like upper management at his bank. Keith has this like tiny mustache. The mustache is not big, it's quite small. It's so cute it is. I was

not at first. I was not sure if I was going to get on board with Keith, but then I ended up getting on board with Keith. He's a little touch and go for me. Blair Underwood, it's hot, but I don't know. There's that one scene where he like he's like, oh, Jada, your outfit is weird, and then he makes her change into a different outfit for like

the bank gala they're going to. She's wearing like this very like colorful, like you know, kind of like festive maxi dress, and and he has her change into like a little black mini dress, right, which is not I liked. I first of all, he was wrong the first time. The first dress was lovely and I liked it. And then there's like that scene at the I don't know, I mean, I I like, I generally like it, but it was kind of like her big night out is

to this like evil Bankers gala. You're like, yeah, I want better for her than this this evil banker gala. But everyone's having fun. And then you like see his the like inside of his house in different scenes and he's like, well, it's not much, but it's home. And then it's like this mansion. You're like, what are you talking? Like, sir, sir, like he went to Harvard and school the school school, Oh my god, I had to like rewind and go back. I was like, if that is what it's actually called,

I need to like that. Like this they called journalism school j school, But there's no like there's not like there's no B school or like C school. I went to F school film school. Thank you so much. That's a really funny way for like writers to tell on themselves. They're like, yeah, they probably call it B school. Let's just put it down. What a funny. Yeah, that was a great And she doesn't flinch either. She's like, oh, yes, B school. No, she needs clarification. She's like, what the

funk are you talking about? And he's like, oh, sabby business school. And then he says he works on Wall Street and we're like, anyway, So he hits on Stony and eventually asks her out while they're scoping out this bank that they intend to rob. Meanwhile, to Sean has to bring her baby to work since she can't afford a babysitter, and the baby accidentally consumes some cleaning products and they have to rush him to the hospital and

then Child Protective Services take her baby away. So now everyone is even more highly motivated to go through with robbing a bank, so they start to make preparations. Cleo procures some guns and a getaway car some guns from Dr dre Yes a great cameo the playing the guy of guy that owes favor right and has a bunch

of guns. That's such a fun heist trope to me because I feel like that that is like a character that appears in some form and every highest movie of like, well how will we get item, It's like, oh, guy owes me favor and then we see guy who else favor. So then Frankie Stony Cleo into Sean go to rob a bank wearing disguises, and a couple of them feel uneasy about it, but Frankie sets it off. Hey, that's the name of the movie. I love how much they say that the name of the movie, and well someone

had to set it off. Yeah, Well, because when when Cleo is getting the gun, she's like, no, I don't want I want something that can set it off. And I'm like yes, like yeah right, I one of the many things. I mean, it's like it's hard not to want to talk about every part of the movie as we mentioned it, but there's so like, I don't know,

I I love that. I feel like a lesser movie would kind of employ some like they all know how to set it off right away, but they get like steadily better at robbing banks as the movie goes on, where like the aesthetic and the weapons for the first robbery are very different from the third, and you're like, okay, we're all learning here. This is cool for sure. The way the first robbery was shot was really cool because it was all one shot, just kind of like moving

around the room. There's no edits, and it happens in exactly sixty seconds because you see the shot starts with a clock and then ends with the same clock and it's one minute later, and you're just like, oh, this is good filmmaking. The blocking in this scene, the acting in this scene music. I loved it. So anyway, So they arrive at this first bank and they go through with it except for two Sean, who runs away um because she chickens out and it's a success, and then

get away with twelve dollars. Meanwhile, though, the same cops from earlier, Detective Strode and Detective Waller are starting to suspect who might have done this robbery, and they think that Frankie was involved. I have another huge issue with that plot point, but we'll get there. Then Stony goes out with Keith. Meanwhile, Cleo and Frankie want to rob another bank because they need more money to be able to kind of fully leave their old lives behind. Stony

doesn't want to. She and Cleo get in a huge fight, but it doesn't last long. They make up, and then there's this fun Godfather inspired I had seen this scene before, but I didn't know the context of when it came in the movie, so I went in thinking said It Off was way sillier. Oh, then it ends up being but that that scene is so awesome. It's so good. Yes, it's a great scene. And also I hadn't listened to them.

I don't know how much Destiny's Child you listen to listen to, but their album The Writings on the Wall starts with a scene just like that with Missy Elliott talking to Destiny's Child like the Godfather, and I had grown up hearing that. And then I watched Set it Off after that, and I was like, oh, okay, wait, I never would have connected that. I know exactly. Wow, Yes, Set it Off was first, so I think that it came from that. They're just big fans. Oh I love that.

That's great. So basically the group is like, Okay, we just need to do one more big robbery and then we'll be set it off. You're like, but what about the rule of threes? I know, all right, they don't they haven't thought about that yet. Yeah, they don't know what the screenwriting rules at this moment. So they go to the second bank, and this robbery is kind of touch and go. It's lasting a little too long there there getaway gets a little botched, but they managed to

get away with the second one. Isn't the second one where Queen Latifa drives through the bank correct which it gets a little botched, just drives the car into the bank. I love that scene. Apparently there's like a display of like Teddy Bears the truck runs into because all of a sudden there's a shot of like Teddy Bears exploding across the front of the car. No, no, it's perfect, it's great. And also t t really steps up in this robbery because she is like someone almost someone has

a gun and someone is going to stop them. But then she's able to which I really liked. I liked that it was like she got scared the first time, and then the second time she was like instrumental to set setting it off, setting it off. Yeah, she's pretending to be one of the hostages basically, and then she's like, oh no, you don't when the guy with the gun tries to stop things. For this robbery, they managed to get away with over two hundred and sixty thousand dollars.

Their plan is that they're going to keep working at their janitor jobs for the next few days while they get t t. S Son back, and then they're going to leave town. So they stow the money in the hotel where they work at and go about their normal business.

Then we have a Stony and Keith Steamy X scene, a lot of tight shots, a lot of oil, good soundtrack, a lot of butts, and then the other show up at work and learn that Luther, their boss, has stolen their cash that they stowed away, so they go after him. They find him, I think it's t t ends up shooting and killing him. They can't find the money, but there is a woman there who Luther was having sex

with and she witnessed the whole thing. So then Cleo gets picked up by Detective Strode and put into a lineup, but she had taken this witness's I D and been like this is for insurance, Like if you identify me, I will kill you. As the implication. So Cleo does not get identified and she gets released. But with the money gone, they realized that they have to rob another bank, so they decided to go for the big one, the rule of threes bank, and Jada is like not keeps

bank and then and they're like, yes, bang bank. Sorry. Now the problem is that the detectives are already there showing security camera footage to the like upper management staff at the bank, and Keith recognizes Stoney from the footage and he's like, no, not my girlfriend Stony. So the women show up to rob the bank, but because the like cops are already like right there, there's this big shootout.

T T gets shot, they get away, and then two Sean dies in Stoney's arms, another very tragic scene, and then they have to escape from the kind of that situation, and then Cleo kind of martyrs herself to save Stony and Frankie. Stony gets on a bus, but Frankie gets caught and killed, but Stone makes it to Mexico and she's got her bag of money and she's the only one to make it out, and then the film ends with her kind of driving along the coast. It's a

perfect ending shot. Yeah. Yeah, so that is the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss where where should we start the discussion. There's there's a lot of stuff here. This is one

of the best casts. Like, it's such a great cast because I mean when I I've been you know, looking back and researching um black film for like the past thirty years and just kind of look specifically looking at a lot of the talent that really didn't get to be in that many movies because there just weren't roles for them, and this cast is just so it's so perfect, like just all of my favorite so many of my favorite under used actress is like specifically, I think that

Vivid A. Fox wasn't underused actress for a while, especially like until like leading up to like kill Bill, but even like since kill Bill, she's been really underused. Kimberly Alice, who I Love, Love Love and who was She started the very first Tyler Perry movie, Diary of a Mad Black Woman, and she was she was amazing in it, and and she I mean like and you know, Tyler Perry got huge after that. I mean he was already

huge in terms of like um theater and stuff. But I hope ever we got huge in film and she didn't, And I hate that because she's great and Jada Pinkett Smith one of the most underused actresses of our time. We were just talking about that in The Bad Mom's episode where like she plays one of the side characters who's like one of the mean yeah, and it's like, what you have her? Why didn't you use her at all? Like her and Magic Mike Double x L. Like Jada

pink like that was that was beautiful. I was like, we need to use her like she's used in Magic Mike Double x L and everyone she and she really like, I mean, I had to look up. I was like, how old is she in this movie? She's like twenty five if that, and she's just like on another love I mean, she's her performance in this movie is fucking incredible. It's so good everyone she's she's amazing and uh. And I also love that she got a love scene because I love I love sexy Jada Pinkett I love well.

I guess that that's like a place we could go to because we see we see um Stony have sex twice in this movie and something that I appreciated that the movie does is the way that those two sex scenes are framed couldn't be more different, and because they're told from her perspective, which I feel like it's something we lose sometimes in movies where even if the protagonist is a woman, you still somehow end up seeing the sex scenes from the male perspective for no reason, presumably,

But in this we see her at the beginning. I forget what the name of the card dealership guy is, but the Nate I think Nate. Okay, so so he I mean he coerces her basically into having sex so that she can do this down payment for U. C. L A. And you see her face during that scene. It doesn't focus or linger on him. There's no like you know, over the time, like you are there with her, not with him. And then in the sex scene with Keith, it's like the best. It's a corny nineties there's a candle.

There's got to be a candle. It's just as if there's an open flame, just there's oil everywhere. You got very slippery. It's a very slippery sex scene. And like Blair Underwood, like because Blair Underwood is so much always like he's always playing like very like they I mean, Cleo calls him, calls his character this in the movie a buppy, a black yuppie, Like he's always playing that character, and that character is usually very like rigid and kind

of like sexless, even though he's so handsome. Like even I remember watching him on Sex in the City and being like, imagine what this would be like if he wasn't surrounded by white people in the show, Like what if there was a Sex in the City where I just got to see his ass all the time, and then I wouldn't also have to think about him being fetishized by like white women who just like love the way that he talks or you know. But yeah, so

seeing him get a sex scene is really nice. There there really aren't that many Blair Underwood sex scenes, which is a crime. It's a great So I really enjoyed the sex scene. It's so like it's very of its time, but it's good and it's like and and contrasted with the other sex scene feels exactly right in the opposite direction. And usually you get those overly objectifying or like exploitative sex scenes from male directors, which this movie does have.

So shout out to director f. Gary Gray, you know, legendary black director for you know, treating those sex scenes responsibly and being respectful of the characters, and just the entire narrative to me, is by and large very respectful of its subjects, these four women. It tells their story, it dives into their characters. We understand who they are, they're so distinct from each other, we understand their motivations because that does not always happen when you have a

male director directing women. Well. F. Gary Gray is also like, he's this is I've I've seen I think more f. Gary Gray movies than not. I had not seen this one all the way through. But he also if you want to feel horrible about yourself, he's seven when this movie comes out, So there's that. And his his big movie before this was Friday with Ice Cube and Chris Tucker, which comes out the year before this. So he's just like firing on all cylinders, especially at this point in

his career. But don't sleep on the fate of the Furious Um. Now, I want to talk about some other people behind the scenes. So the film was written by two people. Takashi Buford, who is a black man and Kate Lanier, who we were Yeah, Caitlyn and I were talking. Uh, we had a long discussion about Caitlyn near earlier today because she's uh, she's kind, she's all over the place. So from I research, here is what I've gathered. She wrote to the screenplay for such films as Beauty Shop,

What's Love Got to Do With It? Glitter, a TV movie about TLC, among a few other projects. So these are mostly movies that are about black women. Now, as far as her background, she is a white woman, yes, so or so? Okay, Well, we watched I had the same thing where I'm like, I'm like, true, she's a white woman, but when you search her face, you're you get the same kind of like unclear iage. Okay. We were having this discussion today because we were also we're like, okay,

we want to be sure that this. So Caitlin found an hour long interview and bravely watched, watched the whole thing. And Kate Linear is white. But don't ask her if she's white because she'll say, well, I'm half Jewish my

dad's side of the family. There's all kinds of stuff going on there, and it's like you're okay white, and then but she then she later says she doesn't know what she is and um, and then she acknowledges that she looks white because it's because she's white, that's why she looks and then okay, here's the here is the

absolute worst part of this interview. She goes on to say that because she has hung out with a lot of black people and that she gravitates towards them, she feels eligible to tell black stories, and by tell she means profits off from she It's the only like extended interview of her that exists. She's being interviewed by a black woman who keeps looking to the camera Jim Halpert style every time she starts talking about how she's white, but is she white? And it's like, no, she is white.

It's a mess. She negs the interviewer, and then she pivots at the end of this clip to be like, well, Hollywood is agist, and I'm like, don't change the subject. Do you think that Rachel DoLS All has this interview and that like like she like downloaded it to her computer and watches it all the time. I was getting

some Rachel DoLS All vibes from this screenwriter. She yeah, so, and then at the end she's like, I'm all forgetting more black writers into the room, But why are people mean to be because I'm old and you're like, this sentence has been a journey, so wonderful, So glad that you watched that. I would not have watched that, So thank you for your service. Um well, that brings me to an excerpt from a book entitled Shaping the Future of African American Film, Color Coded Economics and the Story

Behind the Numbers by Monica White and Donu. I might have mispronounced that quote. Patriarch capitalism presents several hazards for Black cinematic storytelling. Representing Black males as primarily unsupervised except by law enforcement and correctional institutions does not reflect the historical survival of Black families and African American communities that have depended upon single mothers. Convention maintains that the black man can fix what has been broken in the black community.

This assertion becomes particularly significant considering the race and gender of the screenwriters and director of Set It Off. Director f Gary Gray and screenwriter Takashi Buford are African American males. The fact that co writer Kate Lanier is a white female who has penned scripts for several films about black women is also noteworth the What's Love Got to Do

with It? Glitter Beauty Shop. Since none of the filmmakers on this project are Black women, their only intervention is through performance, much like Black Americans in early mainstream theater

and film. Um The writer goes on to talk about how Black women have been underrepresented, misrepresented, and over sexualized even in movies made by black filmmakers, again particularly black men, and then she says, quote Set It Off exposes the racial and gender disparities in Hollywood's ulmer scale, as well as the reverberating effects of those disparities both on and off screen. Employing Black people and women, either for behind the scenes roles or as actors, does not guarantee a

fair or honest representation of Black culture or women. So basically, she's saying, you know, with this movie, there are black people behind the scenes, there is a woman behind scenes, but maybe Set it Off, a movie about Black women and their struggle should have been written and directed by black women. Now I would say that this film does a pretty good job. Like I really enjoyed this and I think that there's a lot of great things to

take away from it. But like we were already hinting at earlier, like the treatment of like the white male cop is like a friendly ally to the characters, is you know, a little and the treatment of his partner is kind of like a subordinate who doesn't really seem

to have any opinions. And I mean the only other place where I think that it really comes up is with Cleo and her girlfriend, which is it's a really interesting thing because like I think that Queen Latifa is really hot, and I can get very clouded by that, but but like there is no denying that, Like the way that she is written is kind of like this idea of like, well, you know, it's got to be like this, I mean, and not to say that, I mean, she's basically playing stud and she's very good at it.

You know, love the corners of the style, love everything. But it's but it is interesting that her girlfriend never talks, and I think that is that could be just like no one in the script really having the imagination of like, Okay, the stud gets to talk, but what about the fem does the fem get to speak in The answer is no, she doesn't to a point where it's like it seems like they're making a point by not letting her speak.

The other characters even comment on it. They're like, she's not going to say anything like that first the scene when when Ursula is first introduced and they like say hi, Ursula, and like she just doesn't respond to like she's not going to say anything. Like they comment on the fact that she doesn't talk, and it's like this could have

been fixed. It just seems like there's another movie where like are they're just like scenes like all put together were Ursula's talking and she's like having all these opinions and it's just like in some other like side movie, or I would love it if there was like a cutout scene where she was just like, hey, I don't think that this is such a good idea, right He was like, I know exactly how to rob a bank.

Let me give you some dudes, and don't like there's so many ways she could have where's the Ursula spinoff? It's so bizarre that they don't let La talk. I have a little more context for the scripting process. So just last month, Vulture didn't interview with Vivid A Fox about this movie, and so there's like a ton of really fun like behind the scenes facts. Um. But one thing that how I found out that this movie went through a number of drafts was Vulture asked what rang

false about the original script? Vic Fox response quote, Jada was a crackhead. There were so many stereotypes of black people. F Gary Gray was just like, nope, nope, her brother was a crack dealer. In the first draft, it didn't make any sense. He was like, no, Jade is going to be working hard for him to go to school, and her motivation was him saying I don't want to go to school, and the director came up with what she had to do to get him the money to

go to school unquote. So it's and it does sound like based on this interview, while obviously that there were two main writers of this movie, that f Gary Gray encouraged all four lead actors to ad lib, to add in stuff, um where they felt like it made sense. There was like I guess that a lot of like the famous lines in this movie were ad libbed by by the actors. Yeah, Vivica A. Fox is so she

also says that she's athletic seven different times in this interview. Um, she said seven times for some reason her so much. I guess the next thing I want to touch on is, so this is a movie about like black female friendship, which we don't see very often at all. I mean, Jordaniel were talking about how like between this and Girls Trip, that's kind of it. I mean even waiting to their friends.

But we talked about this on on that episode, where like we only see them on screen together for maybe like twenty minutes in the entire movie, and the rest of the movie is like those women off with the various romantic pursuits that they're you know with. So this is such a rare story to see on screen, at

least in a cinematic mainstream way. Um. And I like, as is always the case, the movie was super successful and it was like a hit, and it made its budget back four times because as like, these are stories that people want to see, there just weren't any studios making them or making them to be released to a

wide audience, was it. In that same interview with Vivica A. Fox where they were there was mention of this film being pitched too I think it was a new line cinema and being rejected like three times because they didn't anticipate like anyone would want to see a film about a bunch of black women. They were just like, who wants to see that? And it's like, well, a lot of people because this movie was a box office success.

Well yeah, I mean I feel like a lot of those assumptions are like I listened to a lot of you must remember this, and there were a lot of assumptions that Hollywood would like try to anticipate the way that people would react to things and be like, well, you know, the public wouldn't like this, they wouldn't see this, and that those were a lot of the arguments that they made historically when it came to like black Story reason. I mean, those arguments are are the exact same and

they haven't really changed that much now. And it's I mean, this movie came out the year after Waiting to Exhale. So there's a really good Clerkesha Kent piece and I'm just like Clerkesha Kent nerd so I to read this piece that she wrote. But she she basically makes the argument at one point in her piece about set it off that um Set It Off and Waiting to Exhale

are often compared to one another. UM, but she also makes the argument that that is like she's like, I think that it's because there's four black women on the posters, because outside of that, you also in this movie see poor black women. You see like they're they're all working class people, and you know, in in Waiting to Exhale, it's you're you're in a different class, You're in Arizona. Like,

it's it's quite different. Yeah, there's really i mean, genre wise, they're so different, like there's really nothing except that they're both about four black women. That it's well, it comes like with with black movies in general, especially movies about black women, they just tend to be lumped together as this this like giant genre that's like black, this like

very indirect, like not really descriptive genre. And it's I mean, it's it's very frustrating because though because people just be like, oh, well, I'll talk about like, for example, my like a thing, my kind of like pet thing is that I love seeing black women's sexuality on screen, which is like even in my opinion, like they don't really get to explore like as in like a way of like objectifying, yes, but in terms of like black women enjoying sex, you know,

like having orgasms, having a good time, I'm very rarely see that. And when I start to talk about that, will people be like, oh, well, there's this movie. In this movie, in this movie, it's like, yeah, there's a black woman in it, and yes there's a love story. But does but does she come like does does she retorgasm? And it's no, she doesn't. So then that's not what I'm talking about. It's the yeah that there needs to

be a media test for that. That's gonna be your your test, that's going to be the podcast for you, Jordan's in thirty years. And I think that the reason people like in the in a kind of whether they really have it or not, bad faith way lump all these movies together is because they're just are not enough of them that are like released in the mainstream, which is an issue at all of its own. It's frustrating. Yes, yeah, let's take another quick break and then we'll come right

back for a more discussion. And we're back ready to set it off again. I wanted to talk about how this how useless cops are in this movie, and I realized that, like it's not just that, like it's not just like the stuff that we see in the movie. It's also just like the context of what they're doing. They're putting all of this manpower and all of this money and all of these guns and like helicopters and riot here and all this stuff to get four women

who just need some money. Like I was just I like, especially like now with the protests and everything me just watching this, I'm just like, look at look at all of this time and energy and ship that they're spending because four women just want some money. Like why like you know with all this all this like funding that you you could just give these four black women some money and then like send them on their way, like

we don't need to actually do this. And like the end with like especially with the chase and the man hunt and everything, it's so stupid. It's so stupid to look at like I'm just like just everybody else could be doing something else. And then like there's a newscaster and it's like everybody's watching this, and it's like it's like this is not new this is not like o J and Lebronco. These are just like four women who

like need to pay their bills. And the ending drives me insane because like it's John C. McGinley, and um, he's talking to Vivica A. Fox's character, and he's just like, I mean even even the point in the bank anytime that he's just like, we don't need any more violence, you know, put the gun down. We don't need anymore

No more people need to die. And so he's like talking to Vivica A. Fox and like he just he says that, and it's just like, why are you saying that when you know that like immediately she is going to die. Like it's just so weird to me because why would she trust him? Because when he's in the bank and he's like, you know, we don't have to

do any more violence whatever. Everybody's ready to surrender, and then they just killed two Sean like just a cop just like shows up like after he's already like calmed everyone down and just like shoots because they're just trained to shoot. And then and then it becomes a shootout, becomes a shootout because cops are fucking stupid. And then he for some reason, like he's like so sad about it. And so like upset, but then you still like Spear

had this entire fucking man hunt. If you're so sad, then why do you keep bringing all these people with guns? Like it doesn't especially because he I feel like the movie takes multiple opportunities to distance him from what he is in charge of and is definitely doing because he's in charge of it. Where like after he started this case, he started the investigation, the chief who is a black man, told him not to, and he does it anyway, and

the whole yeah, he's like, she's colluding. She vificult a fox knew the initial bank robbers, so she's in on it. And it's like he's making a bad faith assumption, and then the movie has him turn out to be right, which I also don't like. I don't like the story logic there of like he is making a bad faith assumption, like flat out, but then they're like, but you know

she did rob the bank. It's like it's oh yeah, that That's another thing that makes me really mad about this movie, and it reminded me of It actually reminded me of Crash. I don't know if you've seen two thousand fours Crash not the good one, the David Cronenberg one in the nineties where people are turned on by car crashes. Azing film beautiful. If you ever want to talk about that one on this podcast, I will come back to talk about the car crash Fuck, the Horning

car Crash. No, I haven't seen it. It's a movie about get turned on by car crashes. It's fucking awesome. I also read the book, A very morning book. Why wasn't that my idea? But the bad crash, the two

thou four crash um, I don't know. I don't know if you guys have seen it, but there's a scene where it's like ludicrous and Ren's tate are just like talking about police profiling and how everyone just assumes that they're robbers and that they're gang bangers and everybody has the worst assumptions and then they immediately commit a rob someone like it's it's so frush because he is absolutely profiling in that scene, but the story would have you believe, like,

but was he wrong? And you're like, that is not. I don't even think the message that this movie is trying to say, like what is going on the movie. The movie doesn't question whether this cop is wrong or not. The movie really just questions like oh no, like why is the system like this? And it's like, well, we're looking at the system. It's John c McGinley. It's just doing bad things and then feeling bad about it for a second and then going back to do the things again.

And it feels intentional that the most heinous crimes committed by cops in this movie are committed by faceless like we don't know them. It's by random like guy in background um is always the it's it's a cop that we don't know, which feels like another intentional choice of like almost like I don't God only knows who involved in the production at whatever level made the decision of like, well, we can't have the cop that we know be the murderer. It has to just be like background cop number five.

Otherwise that introduces, like, you know, questions that maybe this movie doesn't quite want to answer. It's so frustrating. And it's also the fact that we get that I thought that that exchange between Frankie and Detective Waller at the towards the beginning of the movie was setting up something that could have been like a really interesting, effective like conversation and then it's just like, Nope, we're just gonna give you more John C McGinley than you ever would

have asked. Yeah, nobody, nobody needs that much of him. I've seen every episode of Scrubs. That was enough. And it's also like, now that I've seen him in all these older cop movies, when I watched Scrubs, now he just looks like a cop. He looks like a doctor cop. He looks like an undercover cop working at a hospital. Yeah. Well, there's the Detective Waller character I really cannot make sense of.

She's played by Ella Joyce. There's a scene where Queen Lativa's character is in the lineup and they're trying to get the wit is who is having sex with Luke Luther, to identify Cleo, and she doesn't do it because she knows Cleo is going to come after her if she does so. She says, I don't the perpetrator is not

in this lineup. Meanwhile, Detective Waller is like she's right there, like she's like she's so mad, and it's just like I don't like it would be like once again in Boys in the Hood, it's made like very specifically clear that like the black cop character does not like other black people, and that's the point, Like that's the critique, Like to become a cop, you would have to not

like other black people. And so like I almost just kind of wish that the movie like leaned into this and was just like she just doesn't like other black women, because at least that would be interesting and that would give her something to do, and it would also like explain why she's subordinate to this guy who's just like, for all she knows up until like everything gets ramped up, who's just like harassing these women, just like writing him

around for no just wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars of test fare money to just harass these women. And and it's the way he talks to her is also like so just arrogant and annoying. He's such a he'said know it, Like there's what does that scene where they're both in the office together and he like puts Hirez photos of the four main actors and it's like, what did I tell you? And I'm like, oh, this is the moment where she's gonna like, you know, push back

or something's gonna happen. And then they're like nope, next scene, you're no. And I don't. I don't like the way that he talks to all the four main characters either. He's so condescending. He's just like, yeah, I know your life is hard, and like all you have to do is put down the gun and like I know your whole life story because I'm a FED and I'm like spying on you, but I'm pretending to be a therapist. It's like, no, you're a FED, You're a fucking You're

not a therapist. Shut up. No, And therapists don't stalk you. And they're like I know about your brother and your mother and your grandma, and it's like no, Like if my therapist knew that much about me, i'd be like, what's going on. Therapists famously do not do these things. It's so it's so frustrating and and I mean, I guess this might be like an accidentally effective thing where he's he says at multiple times that he understands what

they're going through, but he obviously doesn't. He would not be in this job, Like I don't know where that was headed, which is kind of wild because it's like, what is happening with the four main characters seems so focused and like so like the movie knows exactly what they're doing with the four main characters for the most part, and then the cop the cop B plot, I feel like, like, unless you're going to make commentary on what they're doing doing,

why is it there? Like why why? Yeah? Yeah, they don't. They don't discuss anything. They don't like follow leads. They decide that these are the women they're stuck without. The entire time, there's no investigation at all. No, he just does what his boss tells him not to do, profiles and then murders people. And then at the end he's like, all right, Jada, you got me, you can go to Mexico.

And I think that we're supposed to be Like that was nice of him, Like I was trying to discern how the movie was trying to Yeah, I think that we are supposed to. And I mean it's also just like, um, a bit of like Hollywood morality from that time. I you know, I love I love black cinema from that time. It's some of my favorite But there's also this sense of there's only one of us that's gonna get out

of this, Like in any given movie. From that time, you get the feeling that only one person is really going to make it, and like I almost feel like Stony makes it just because she has scenes where she's just like, you know, don't you ever think about the future, don't you ever think about where you're going? And because she's the only one who thinks about the future, she's

the one who lives, right, Okay. So one of the things that I thought was effective and really cool about this movie, and you know, still very timely and relevant today, is like just the idea of these characters doing what they do because they are trying to get out of this cycle of poverty and the cards are stacked against them because they're black women and they come from a low socioeconomic background, Opportunities are not open to them for

any sort of upward socioeconomic mobility, you know, like every like they have to rob banks because they have no other choice. They're they're desperate. Just everything that's happened to them has lead them to this. And and I love the line that I who says that we're the four of them are finally all on board and they're like, okay, let's do this. They're like, yeah, let's steal from the system that is addicted to fucking us over Like that feels like the yes a thesis statement in the movie.

For sure. It's when um, they're planning the first heist and t is like, I feel so bad we're stealing people's money. If we're stealing from a bank, you know, it's it's other people's money. And then Cleo is like, no insurance will cover it, Like that's a ridiculous comment. And then Frankie says, we're just taking from the system that's sucking us anyway, and we're like, yes, like steal

from that system like do it? Um, But yeah, there's this there's this kind of like motif I suppose where it starts with Keith, who again he works in like corporate bank management. Basically he loves banks, he loves money and he has a lot of it, and he is dating only who She says at one point like I'm borrowing pieces of your life, like you live this fancy life. This is not my life or background, like we come from their very different places basically, But he's like, you know,

what's your five year plan? Like what's what do you plan? What a five year plan? Like? And she's such a middle class thing that like I just can't even fathom it, and she says, I don't know, I've like never I have no idea, and then she kind of after this conversation with Keith, she says, hey, Cleo, do you ever think about the future, Like what's your five year plan? And Cleo responds, I don't know. I don't have a five year plan. I'm just trying to get through today.

And it's like, yes, like people trapped in poverty don't have the luxury of planning ahead or you know, like too setting goals for the future, Like that is a very middle class or upper class thing. I don't know

how much Keith like I that. Keith definitely does like learn a lot from Stony and he is like he listens to her and he does take what she has to say in because the way that that scene about the five year plan ends is Stony starts talking about her brother and he's like, well, great, what's your brother's

five year plan? And she's like he was murdered and Keith is like, right, like it just so I do I do appreciate that those conversations, you know, happened between them, and it's like two different class experiences entirely and but yeah, joining you're totally right. I didn't even connect the dots on that one where it's the person who survives is the one who was taking in that kind of five

year plan morality upwardly mobile and all that. Yeah, well, I mean, like because when you have Cleo, like you know very early that Cleo is going to die simply because like in the wake of Reagan and everything like that,

we see Leo. You know, as soon as she gets the money, she gets rims and she gets like she gets like hydraulics for her car, and it's just like, I know that based on the morality from that time, there's no way that she's going to live because she's got hydraulics for her car, like, and it's just I mean, that's that's the kind of morality that movies were working on at that time. So I mean, I hope that

it's changed. I wouldn't really know, because there's not really any recent films to compare this too, not that I can think of. I mean, I guess, I guess you I guess maybe hustlers, hustlers get like there's similar themes going on. Yeah, man, we gotta do Hustlings growing over the system. Wait, you haven't done Hustlers yet. We haven't done We have five million requests for Hustlckers and we

haven't done it yet. Love Hustlers so much. But but one thing that I want to talk about that we didn't talk about is that they get high together in a scene, and it's my favorite scene in the movie. And I realized that, like, I can't think of a lot of movies where black women are just getting high together, which is weird because like that is what I do with my friends, We get high. Like it's just weird. It's all the scenes where they're together are so great,

but that one, Yeah, that one is the best. And it seems like I would guess that there is like a fair amount of ad living in that scene as well, because it's just like so comfortable and so natural and so oh it's great. Yeah. I just want to see black women getting orgasms and getting high. I mean, those are two are my favorite things. Both do happen in this movie. I mean, I guess, But do we see Jay to come? I assume that she does. Maybe I shouldn't.

I assume. I assume that she does too, but I mean, who knows, Like it might have just been like really hot and heavy, and then like right before she hits it, he's just like, all right, I'm done, I'm tired. Would you like a pop tart? Having pop tarts in like that? That's like his one like working class treat, heard of these pop tarts? A be school there, but yeah there. Their friendship is so it. I like how often it's put on display. It's a major plot point at different points,

and I also love that they are. I feel like female friendships across the board are often kind of written in this very like no one ever disagrees with each other way, or if they do disagree with each other, it's it's this big end of second act kind of disagreement. But like the four main characters are constantly like they

bigger with each other a lot. There are certain like flare ups in their friendship, like after the first robbery where t T runs away before the robbery and then I it's Frankie who is like, no, you don't get any money, you didn't participate in the robbery, and and then apologizes and it's like, okay, sorry that was sucked up.

I should have said that obviously we all want you to get your son back, and like just having that like really strong friendship, but also just seeing in the way that like strong friendships are where it's like people fight with their best friends constantly. Yeah, I mean, And it goes to show just how well these characters are characterized, because it never feels not justified, like any argument or

disagreement they have. You understand where each character is coming from because you know the character well enough to understand their motivations and everything that informs their opinions and all

of that stuff. Can we go like just character to character and just quick runda, I mean with with t T. I love, I love t T so much, I hate so like I I do appreciate that the movie like makes it explicitly clear like why they are put in these extremely unfair situations where it's once Luther puts t T on the books and she's not getting money under the table anymore so much taxes are taken out that she can't afford childcare, which directly leads to her having

her son taken away, which is fucking awful. Like there, and and it makes it clear that this is like not a fair situation for her to have to be in, and then everyone surrounding the situation except for her friends, are being deeply antagonistic and unhelpful about it. Do we we never find out what happens to her baby either, No, I don't think so. I wish they had. I guess.

I don't know if there would have been like an organic way in the narrative to like address what happened to that baby, but we just kind of don't revisit that at all. Yeah. That made me feel bad. Yeah, I was like I worry about that, that poor kid, such a cute kid. Yeah, and then like I mean you have to imagine that like there's never enough social workers in foster care and just that it's it's terrifying.

Well yeah, and I mean there's also just you know the history of like child protective services being weaponized against black mothers, and mostly you know, it's black mothers losing their children because they have to work. Almost like services should be offered instead of instead of just you know, taking people's children away, yeah, and giving them to strangers. Yeah. I guess we Yeah, I did, we did. We don't find out what happens to her son, and there I

mean her teaches death. I mean, everyone's death is devastating, but teaching death. And I mean just that scene, and that is like so beautifully acted by Jada pinkett Um when she's talking about the banana flambay as like teaches ye in her arms. It's just like it's got renting, heartbreaking. And then after that scene, this movie does it a

couple of times. It never really bothers me, but there are a few abrupt tonal switches in this movie, and one of them comes right after t T's death, where I was like crying my eyes out on my couch, and then they got to keep the movie going, so then it's like do do do do do? And then it's like back to the chase and you're like, okay, I guess yeah, and the chase is still happening. I just but yeah. And then we have Cleo an out character.

Yes it's a miracle in the in the nineties. Um, yeah, I again, I wish maybe her girlfriend had said one word or you know, she's not a part of the group, she's not one of the main characters. But it was a choice and a choice that I don't necessarily understand, and maybe that was just but like, there are jokes in this movie, but this isn't a comedy. There's comic relief now and then, but totally this is a pretty

this is a serious film. So if there's like a running gag, like, wouldn't it be funny if like Ursula just never talks and like that was a running gag and like that the filmmakers decided to throw in there. It's like, okay, weird choice, weird movie to put a running gag like that in the in the story, but okay, but um, but in any case, yes, Cleo, I think Cleo is my favorite character of the four. I do like them all a lot, but like Queen Latifa's performance is just she knocks it out of the park and

she's wonderful. I mean, Cleo is so is you know, she's very honest and you know, she's very funny, and she's and she's brave her her death which is very sad, but it's a very brave death. Yeah, she's she martyrs herself and she like lights a cigarette. She's just like I love that. That's so thumb and Louise just like let's go. Yeah it's and they referenced Thelma and Louise earlier in the movie to reference it in the movie, and this movie, by critics got compared to Thelma and

Louise because critics just love in a car. Caitlin clearly there. Yeah her, I mean, her death is devastating, but she gets that kind of like yeah, that like cowboy moment at the end of like she's been put in this impossible, unfair situation. It's being broadcast on news because why and she still you know, in the way that she is able to take control of the situation all that she can, which like is it's great, it's great. You also see

her and her girlfriend um kiss. You so rarely see even if there is a queer character in a movie, they often are not allowed to be seen kissing or embracing their their partner. And they were nuzzling. You see them kiss and it's like I found that surprising for a movie made in the mid nineties. Yeah, if it were me, I would have added a scene with them in bed together. But yes, it's very good. I was, Yeah, it's like it's it's you don't quite get the Blair

Underwood treatment, but I would have appreciated it. That scene where Queen Latifa is like kissing up Ursula's leg. I was like, I'm interested, let's maybe like, let's not interrupt this, but is gonna sure, But yeah, I feel like the queer visibility in this movie is infinitely higher than you know,

most of nine. Yeah, for sure. Frankie. I I think Frankie is like I mean we were talking earlier about how you know, like the movie really makes each woman's situation explicitly clear, which you almost never get in hist movies. It's usually a more vague like we would like money um kind of thing. But for this movie, Frankie is another like very interesting speci of a character because she is trying to also get out of the cycle of poverty.

She is in the process of making that happen by working at a bank and then through no fault of her own, that's taken from her and she is knocked back down and is rightfully angry about it. That scene at the beginning that like vivic A Fox is just like fucking destroys. I was thinking of like Vivica Fox between this and kill Bell, like she really knows how to open a movie, Like she can really get a movie started. But like the scene with her and her bosses and the police where no one is coming to

her defense. She's literally saying like, I don't even really know that guy. I just live near him, and they're just openly discriminating against her, and it's it's so painful to watch and if it, Yeah, they perceive her as being guilty by association just because of where she grew up, and she says like, I can't help who I know. This isn't a friend of mine, Like, it's just a guy she's seen around in her neighborhood. And like they're like, well,

you're probably colluding. You're in your this is collusion and it doesn't sit well with us that you know this person,

so you're fired. And I love that she kind of she's not her idea to rob the bank, but she sort of spearheads the plan of like, well, I know banks, like I know that you have to do like during a robbery, the tellers are going to do this, and they're going to do this with their right hand, in this with their left hand, so like we have to we know how to get around that, and that's how we're going to be successful at this, which unfortunately, by the end they are not, but like, but she gets

that amazing line at the end where people are giving her ship about the procedure of the procedure of the procedure at the beginning, where she was just like, there was like a gun in my friend to my face, I'm sorry I didn't enact the procedure perfectly. And then she's fired. And then at the end she even though I'm just like, why does the cop not die at

the end? Infuriating, but but she gets that line like what's the procedure at the end and gets to throw it back in his face, And man, I just wanted I just wanted him to just like burst into tears and just hit the ground after that, right, like just be he should just be like everyone, everyone go home. I'm a piece of ship. We I mean, it's like I don't even think he loses sleep that night, like he's just it's so fucking infuriating. But I am glad that Frankie got like got a last line and on it.

But it's just it's it's so devastating and infuriating and and and vividate. A Fox is just like such a powerhouse, like it's so it's so good, like during that scene, he's like, no, everyone, stand down, fellow police, lower your weapons. I'm going to go talk to this woman. And it's like good cop. And it's uh, this again, this this like the trope of like the white male police officer who just wants to help you. He's like, help me, help you. We see the same thing in thelm in Louise.

We see the same thing in National Treasure. Harvey Kitel plays both of those characters, and then among other films, Harvey plays good Cop a lot. Yes, so it's just this trope that is a part of the whole like copaganda, like just like procom mentality that is so prevalent in Hollywood. But I just I do not understand why that is in this movie, this movie that is about like the unfairness and injustice that is the cycle of poverty that so many black people are forced into and which is

reinforced by police. And why I then bring in a cop character who is like that we're supposed to be endeared too and sympathetic to. Yeah, and it it's like the whole this whole character, like this whole stock character falls apart under a moment of scrutiny. But hasn't stopped anyone from writing. Yeah, okay. So then and then there's Stony. Yes, Stony, who is I mean, like the she seemed? I guess, I don't know. I mean I guess as close as

you could get to him. I think that it's very much an ensemble movie, but Stony I feel like, probably gets the most screen time out of everybody. But she we we start off by seeing her advocating for her brother, trying to get him out of this cycle of poverty, and then he's subjected to police brutality. He's murdered. It. I thought it was so beautiful and like a really important thing to include, to watch her mourn him with

her friends. It's a tough scene, but it feels like one that the audience really needs because it's like she's what five year plan, It's it's taken from her. And then immediately she has to get back to work and she has to like move forward with her life kind of whether she likes it or not. And and then and then and then there's Keith. And then there's Keith. I think, I mean, there are some things that Keith does and he he gets like he negs where one may maybe not want him to. He does hit on

her in his place of work. He's not even doing his job right. He's like, I'm not even supposed to talk to customers, but you were just too hot for me to not talk to which is a classic guy that you don't end up in a relationship with mine, But what can you do? Um? But I originally because I feel like that we talk about this a lot of like is the romance story necessary to the to what's happening in the plot, And I think that this relationship is important and it's that has a place in

the movie. I was prepared to not not think that, but ultimately I feel like it does. Yeah, I guess I can very easily envision a version of this movie where that storyline is removed and it not really affecting the whole plot in a way that I feel like there's something lacking, But the fact that it is there it also doesn't bother me. I guess I'm just kind

of ambivalent. I mean, you know, I mentioned that I was watching this movie earlier on Twitter and somebody mentioned how they feel like the Blair Underwood characters should have been cut out, and I mean, he has more of a narrative purpose, like in terms of thematically, then he does really like a movie purpose. I mean, he represents the kind of life, like in a since, the kind of life that they could have if their circumstances had

been different. Like he's basically just there for the contrast. So I mean like trying to I mean, I guess in a sense, the film was trying to, you know, make a different like that. You know, some Black people have different lives and it's easier for some and it's different for others. Like I mean, and that seems like

a very basic thing. But I almost feel like maybe people would feel differently about him being in it if there was some real conflict between him and Stony about things like he's The thing about Keith is that he's once he learns like what he's supposed to learn about, like you know, working class black people are having a

different experience, he learns it, and that's really it. And I mean it would have been maybe interesting if it took him longer to learn that lesson and there were like a few more you know, like arguments, in which case then the themes of the movie could like show with themselves in that argument. But think that that's why he's there. Yeah, right, But I agree that he his kind of background could have been used to a greater effect and function um in the narrative than it is.

I feel like it it's it starts to head in that direction, but it doesn't quite get all the way there. There definitely could have been other Yeah, just more kind of just thematic or whatever it is that gets explored that they don't tap into as much as they could have. Yeah, I agree reading that, it's like it is this like outlet for a discussion about class to happen, And maybe it doesn't happen to the extent that it could or should, But I'm glad that it's there. Like there, I mean

a lot of this stuff that's on. Is it their first date where he asks her what her five year plan is? If so, what are you doing? Truly? I would love to meet the man that does this, Like that's so confusing to me, Like if this would be a job interview, what do you I have never I don't think like met much less going on a date with a fancy banker. But if this is how they talk, my god. But but I mean in that conversation alone, I feel like, you get a lot of interesting conversations started.

You have the five year plan, you have um Stoneys saying he's asking her like, do you feel free? And she's like, no, I feel very much caged. And he kind of tries to like cute see his way out of her saying that. But when he listens to her

and I agree that there, you know it. Maybe there would be more productive discussion if if the script had his character pushed back a little more, because I feel like he represents kind of this like bootstraps mentality I guess of like you know, you work hard and you'll be successful and without taking into consideration all the forces of like if that were true, then Frankie wouldn't be in this situation because she literally worked at a bank

and she had that those opportunities taken from her for no reason. And I don't know. Yeah, it definitely starts some interesting conversations. And we're pretty sure that he made Stoney come and we're glad for that as well. Yeah, and the fact that he doesn't really you know, in the end, when she just like drives away and she's just like in Mexico, like he's like smiling when he's

off the phone. He's just like, yes, this is fine, Like I like, I like that he doesn't really do anything extra like try to make their last conversation bad or like ask her to come back, Like he's like, no, she's gone, yeah, which is like I mean the ending shot man like, maybe maybe it's a little corny, but I thought it was so beautiful. I thought it was great. And even the the montage at the end, You're like, this is very nineties, but I was reflecting on all

the memories and all and crying. Yeah, very pure. I've heard so much in the last twenty minutes of this movie. It is just like everything happens. Um. I don't like that. It's like implied that the cop is like doing her this huge favor by allowing her to survive and have to start a life in a place where she knows nobody in order to survive. But I do I do like that she you know, I mean, she's just like so how long this movie takes place over the course

of what like maybe a few weeks. It's like a Stony is a miracle, Like she has to take on everything at once and has to push forward, you know, regardless, and she's still, she's dealing with the grief of her father being murdered by police because he had the same haircut as the actual perpetrator of the robbery. She's dealing with being coerced into sex by this creep just so she can get money to pay for her brother's tuition. Like she's dealing with so much, and just the gravity

of everything. I don't think we've mentioned yet, but in a lot of the it didn't hit for me until about halfway through the movie that, like, the historical context of this movie is also it takes place in l A two years after Rodney King or no sorry, four years after Rodney King, and two years after the Violent Crime Control Act from Clinton, So it's like, also, it feels very I don't I mean a lot of Usually when movies take place in l A, you're just like, Okay,

they couldn't afford to shoot somewhere else. But in this movie, it is very intentional that it's happening in l A at this time, and it informs a lot of what's happening, Yeah, any any any stuff anything else? Uh, you guys wanted to hit on. Well, one less thing about Stoney Um. She cuts all her hair off at the end, probably mostly so that she will not be as easily recognizable by anyone who might be looking for her. UM. But she does become the baldest woman in charge by doing that. UM.

I had one more. Okay, so I this is just a question for for the Zoom room. UM. There were murmurs, I guess last year of this movie being remade or sequeled, potentially with Ray in a production, possibly writing a role, And there were a lot of takes on Clarkesha Kent's piece. UM was one of them in Entertainment Weekly, arguing that this movie does not need to be remade. Um, it was made correctly the first time. But I guess I was just, I was just I don't know. Is is

I sort of I don't, I don't know. I don't think it needs to be remade, but I think we should just have more movies with black women, Like Yeah, I don't. I don't really see the point of this being remade. I just think that the yeah, there should be more yeah yeah, Especially just watching it right now in this moment, so much of the stories feels so incredibly relevant that it doesn't feel like there needs to be any kind of like update in spite of kit

Lan here right, Yeah, what a bizarre person she is? Um? Does anyone have any other thoughts? That was all I had. Yeah, I mean I just think people should watch it. I'm glad I finally did ye. Does it pass the Bechdel test of course? Yeah. They're talking about robbing banks, They're talking about their lives, they're talking about all manner of things, constantly everything. Um. And it also it passes many of the other tests, including the duverna A test, the Vito

Russo test for sure. So as far as our Nipple scale, in which we examine the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I want to give this probably like a four because it does so well to characterize these four main characters, show the nuances of their friendship, show the nuances of their situation, their desperation, the cycle of poverty that they're in that they're kind of helpless to get out of.

I mean, you know, it's a story about systemic racism and sexism holding these characters back and limiting their options, and for them the option becomes crime. You know, not because they're inherently criminals or bad people, or because they

want to commit crime, but because they have no other choice. Again, as black women, the odds are stacked against them, and desperate times call for desperate measures, and unfortunately for these characters, the law catches up with them and several of them are killed, which is sadly reflective of many black people's lives, where they're severely punished for just trying to survive. And the systems in place, you know, systems being law enforcement,

the workforce, economic structures, etcetera. These systems are incapable or unwilling to acknowledge or understand that the systems are designed to oppress different groups of people, such as black people, black women. And I think that this story really effectively tackles those themes and and that reality. Um. And you know,

the fact that you have queer visibility on screen is great. Um, a queer black woman especially something that I've seen very little of in popular media and just media in general, especially from the nineties, So that was pretty remarkable for a mainstream studio movie. UM. I guess the main grape is the over sympathy that the movie extends to the

friendly white cop who just wants to help. And it's like if like Jordane like you said, like, if that were true, if you wanted to help in any way, he would like defund himself and you know, gives gives his salary to the way. I mean he could he could have spent all that time investigating that he spent investigating, like making sure that these women were okay, right, which is what he claims to be doing the whole time,

But he's not. So I'll give it four nipples and I'll give one to Stony Frankie Cleo and uh t t um, I will I'll go the same way I'll do for nipples, uh and Pebacking off what you've already said, I would also say I wish that there were more black women in high level creative roles on this movie and that the movie was benefited from, you know, maybe not hiring Kate Lanier Mrs I'm white, but am I um so I understand that it's I mean, we have like f Gary Gray, we who is like truly a legend,

and like, we have a lot of wonderful people in creative roles. But there you know, this is a movie that is centered on black women and there should be um black women behind the camera as well. Also, Yeah, the weird cop thing, and also just the failure to characterize Detective Waller. Uh in any way, it's just a dumb decision, I thought. But the performances this movie are fucking incredible. The soundtrack I don't think we've brought up yet,

but it's fucking incredible. And um yeah, required viewing for everybody for nipples one to um each of the four leads. Jordan, how about you? Um? Sure, yes, four nipples arousing? Sure, sure, I know you're probably tired. It's quite late where you are right now. Yeah, it is late, right. I was like, oh no, we've been recording for so long. Well, Jordan, thank you so much for joining us in this discussion. Where can people follow your stuff? Follow your social media, etcetera.

You can find me on Twitter at j O U R d A y E N and also that on Instagram, and uh, you can find my rating everywhere. You know. I've written for like Vote, Gung Q and a V club, and I write for bitch Media a lot. That's a great website. Can't can't endorse bitch Media enough. So yeah, we've I think I think we've we've cited your work a number of times on this show before to the point where it's like, why has Darting not simply been

on the show. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, and listen to Bad Romance podcast Oh yeah, please do listen to Bad Romance podcasts. It's good. You know it's good. Brone's good, it's good. Hell yeah. Um, you can follow us. It's on Twitter and Instagram. Um. We've got our Patreon ak Matron. It's five dollars a month and it gives you two bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog. We've got our Tea Public Store, t public dot com, slash the Bectel Cast for all your

merchandising needs. Thanks for listening and U We'll be back next week. By a