Scooby-Doo (2002)

On the Bechdel cast.

The questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephim fast, start changing it with the Bechdel cast.

Railro and welcome to the rectal cast, not the rectal cast. Yes, Caitlin, the rectal cast.

That's disgusting.

Rye ram is rait Lynn.

You said the rectal cast.

Yes, I am familiar and I'm aware.

Yeah, okay, we're welcome to the rectel cast. My ram is ramy raptus. And I resent how Scooby would introduce us the rectal cast, the rectal.

Cast, which you know, so be it so be it.

Scoobysh celet Scooby it Scooby it? Which celebrity thought that the Bechdel test was called the rectal test?

Did that happen?

It was someone? Yes, whoa let me look it up.

You know who's been on Scooby who Joey Chestman?

Wait what that doesn't pass the rectal test, but actually, anything involving Joey does pass the rectal test due to how many hot dogs he eats, but it does not pass the Bechdel Test due to the fact that he's a man. Anyways, Yeah, he was in uh, he was in an episode of Scooby Doo. It was a thrilling day for me as a Scooby fan and most importantly as Joey's wife.

Of course, it was Diane Lane who accidentally called the Bechtel test the rectal test.

I've got to be honest, I do feel like she's well within her rights, and I hope that no one corrected her. That's pretty iconic. Okay, So the Joey episode actually came out in the last.

Couple of years.

It's a new Scooby venture called Scooby Doo and guess who?

And guess who joe.

Joey Tesmutt who passes the rectal test with flying covers colors every fourth of July.

Yeah, of course. Well, speaking of hot dogs, there's that part in this movie where Shaggy is like, hey, that reminds me of the time that I tried to eat the guy in the hot dog costume.

Started on this, I also was thinking, what was my all Right, we have to introduce the show because this is the main feed episode.

Welcome to the Vexel Cast. What was the rectal rest retrod.

Where are we saying rectal unprecedented levels this week?

It's true. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Derunte, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the rectal rest.

Which is the rio retrick prevented by Ralis and Rechdel, sometimes called the real.

If this is your first.

Episode, you should probably pick a different episode to listen to the first time.

Uh.

There's a lot of different versions of the rectal test, but we use our our very own special version.

But Kaitlyn, what, what the fuck is it?

Well? Our version is that two characters of a marginalized gender must have names. They must speak to each other Scooby, doesn't you know, Shaggy their boys. But if Velma and Daphne talk to each other about something other than a man, they can't be talking about something other than Scooby. Then it passes.

I think we should we should make our test more. I can feel a chaotic episode coming on, I really can.

Yeah, I think we should make a special exception for today, or just maybe a general addition to our version of the rectal rest, where nowhere it does pass if you're talking about Scooby.

Oh, okay, so like an Alfred Molina kind of thing.

Yeah, exactly Did I ever tell you about my like? I like, there's a lot of.

Like stale Jamie bits that are going to be connected to this episode. First of all, Matthew Lillard. I was trying to remember what the fuck I was saying about Matthew. I think I was pretending to be his assistant. Was that it?

Or I would be like Willard, No, he was my assistant.

Matthew Lillard was my assistant in my in my little fantasy life. And I was making him bring me I think tuna on crackers. It could have been, oh, or maybe soup. I kind of remember this was this, Oh, I think Lillard was bringing me soup and he was dropping this soup and I was yelling at him.

Was this on the Scream episode? Maybe I forget why wee would have I.

Believe that that would have been. It could have also been, and I think it maybe made a comeback.

In the what's that one on a Rider movie where they're just complain and complain and complain, And he's in that one too.

We covered it last year.

I swear to god reality bites. Yes, no he's not in that is he?

Wait?

No a m I no, no, because no, I'm thinking of Steve's on But.

He is in Hackers. I think he is in Hackers.

How long has it been since we've covered a Lillard original and we haven't done SLC Punk and we should at some point we should. I've only seen that movie once and it was the only time I've done Molly, and I was like, why would you do Molly and then watch SLC Punk alone? Not alone, to be clear, not alone with a friend.

Oh okay, congrats.

Thank you, thank you.

There was the bit about matth Miller being my assistant, and you're right making me soup. I think I'm going to bail on it. I think I'm going to bayl on it for two. But I do have another Scooby, but I'd like to share.

This is a longer term one.

Okay.

I used to have this dream, not like a but like a wish, a cherished wish it kind of dream in which, at every pivotal point in my life, I thought it would be really funny if there was someone wearing a Scooby costume, just also in the room in a way that would feel so bizarre that I would want people to feel like they were dreaming if they attended. So I'm talking about like a wedding that is a very standard wedding, but someone in the audience or the not the audience, god depressing.

The pews or whatever the states, is wearing.

A Scooby costume and like no attention is brought to it. I'm talking I'm giving birth delivery room.

Ohoa, Scooby, this Skuby be there.

Yeah, all the way through my funeral, when I've you know, shuffled off this mortal coil.

I think it would be fun for there to be just someone in a Scooby suit. Now each important turn in my life?

Is this a like a lifelong dream you've had or this.

Has been something I've been talking about since high school?

Oh? Whoa, Yeah, okay I have if I were.

I'm not at my apartment at the moment, but if i were, I could show you. An illustration that I've done of me is a self portrait.

There's two Jamie's.

It's much like the Free to call it Self portrait where she's sitting across from another Freedom.

It's that but it's me and.

Between us is a Scooby interesting So it has been a cherished wish for a long time. And I'll say it's not too late because the very arbitrary life quote unquote accomplishments I was listing, none of them have happened. And so not too late for Scooby at the wedding, not too late for Scooby in the delivery room, not too late for.

Or Scooby at the funeral. Yeah, Scooby at the funeral. Wait, what is that? Is a sun Dance movie waiting to happen?

Yeah? Okay, so you should write it.

I guess all right, I'm not going to talk for the rest of the episode.

Is that okay?

Yeah, I'll take overs. We should talk.

About the Matreon because this this episode is happening in this way, Yes, due to the fact that our listener base has really gone off the rails.

It's true, run off the rails, like it?

Yeah, exactly.

So we are covering Scooby Doo two thousand and two because we had put a request out to our matrons on the Matreon asking what horror movies that we have not yet covered that they would like us to cover for the month of October, and not.

To be fair, should we have put Scooby Doo two thousand and two under horror movies we haven't covered?

Some might say, now, well, well here's what happened. So eventually it became a poll that the matrons voted on, but before that we were just submitting any request.

And you sickos.

Maybe it was my fault with the wording of the original post because I just said spooky movie rather than like a horror movie.

I would say that, yeah, that does pretty closely, and you got the double oh, sounds like it's Scooby Doo.

More like spooky Doo.

It's giving Scooby, it's giving Scooby.

Okay, sorry, I'm listening.

Okay. So I remember the requests flooded in and there were six that ended up on the pole, the most frequently requested movies, and one of them was Scooby Doo two thousand and two. So we put it on the pole. I thought it would be like maybe somewhere in the middle, towards closer to the last place. Unbelievable response by a landslide.

I think did a lap around the closest competitor, Like, yeah, I don't know what are you all every listener on this show the exact same age, like what, I don't understand what the but I do think that I mean, well whatever, twenty year cycles, right, people have Scooby Doobe Doo two thousand and two on the brain and they're also I will shout out one of my favorite YouTubers of all.

Time, Mike's Mike did a barn burner of a video about Scooby Dobe Doo two thousand and two just last year.

Another YouTuber who I really like, named bread Sword, did a very popular Scooby Doo video in the last couple of years where he watched forty four Scooby Doo movies Scooby Scooby's.

Got his paw on the pulse again, let's just say that he got.

Joey, he got Joey or you Joey Chestnut and Joey Chess, not another person who's got his paw on the pulse while.

We're talking about it. So apparently, I don't know if this is an animated Scooby Doo movie or just maybe the name of an episode of a Scooby series. I think it actually might be a movie, though, there's something called Scooby Doo in the Curse of the Thirteenth Ghost that came out in twenty nineteen with Matthew Lillard voicing Shaggy. Matthew Lillard is also in a movie called Thirteen Ghosts, so is this a crossover kind of thing?

Well, and then also there's been Scooby Doo by Drama Oh in the last couple of years, because I think we talked about this on the podcast at the time, which is wild because I have no idea what the conversation would have can I to do?

But one of I think the enduring of the many enduring elements of Scooby do two thousand and two, this like Matthew Lillard Shaggy specifically became Cannon Cannon. He still does Shaggy to this day.

He's done Shaggy one, two, three in three different series this year alone. He is the canonical Shaggy. That has not been true for anyone else in this cast. Not to say that they weren't wonderful, but like usually voice casting is.

Pretty fluid, but not so.

I mean, I think Lillard really just nailed it so much that.

He cornered that market.

And God bless but if you recall, there was a bit of drama.

Oh it's be a drama, Scoob. Yes, right, yes, the movie, Scoob.

Thank you for remembering the drama surrounding Scoob. Yes, they replaced Matthew Lillard. People were furious they were losing it. Will Forte Shaggy. I love will Forte, but it was wrong. It was wrong, and Lillard I think in a way that I was like, all right, this is maybe a bit much. He publicly responded and he was like, I'm very disappointed to not have been cast in Scoop.

It hurts, it feels bad.

And the fans were outraged because Lillard's canon Shaggy.

He loves being Shaggy. And I'm thrilled to report that.

It really has appeared to have course corrected, because.

You know that Scuba is twenty twenty.

I remember watching it and early locked down and being like, this is the worst thing that's going to happen in twenty twenty. No, like, that's that's how you know that. You know the world is in utter disarray. Lillard's not even doing Shaggy.

It's a mess.

Unfortunately, within the year it was the fans they got what they fucking wanted and he's.

You know, he is our Shaggy again.

Thank goodness.

None of this passed the Bechtel test, but it is relevant, and that is how Scooby would say that word.

He would say relevant.

I think he actually would say relevant or zoinks?

Can I just say zoinx?

You can?

Oh God, bless this movie. What a treat.

So anyways, if you're listening to this episode and you've voted for Scooby Doo on the Matreon, this.

Is your faults.

I hope you're happy, because I'm actually quite happy that we are covering this movie. Same But if you're not a member of the Matreon, here's a plug for it, because I mean, we couldn't be more biased. But it's a treat. It's a treat for five bucks a month, you can get two bonus episodes. It's just me and Caitlin. It's a little more, you know. It's like a lighthearted, fun vibe. Over on the Matreon, we usually choose a

And so the reason that we shifted Scooby Doo over to the main feed is because it won by such a landslide, and we're like, well, if this many matrons want it, surely this many people in general want it. So then on the Matreon this month we are covered bring I Guess like second and third place, which basically tied two votes apart.

It felt it felt right, it felt right to do it, so we're doing it. Follows in Barbarian, which both also take both take place in the Greater Detroit area and are kind of more independent movies, so it feels like a more appropriate match up over there. And if you would or if you're interested in those episodes or hell, the like one hundred and fifty episodes of backlog we have over in the Matreon, it is a mere five

They're always making us do all sorts of I think, I truly, I'm trying to think of.

Like for me, for me on the Matreon, I think it's it's the Pinocchio Wars for me. That's where we can really let our worst instincts fly free. We did do a theme earlier this year that was every adaptation of Pinocchio that came out in twenty twenty two, which was three of them, including the poly sharp Pinocchio. So if you really want some some deep cuts and some fun discussions, that is where you can find them.

But today serious discourse.

On the main feed Scooby Doo two thousand and two. Now, Caitlin, what is your history with this movie?

And I would also say Scooby canon.

Of course, I had never seen this movie before, no way, really, it's true, and I had never seen its sequel either, nor had I really seen any Scooby Do intellectual property. I fascinated where of the characters. You know, it has permeated pop culture, you know, the zeitgeist if you will. So I just knew through cultural osmosis who all the and maybe i'd like it was on in the background at some point, but I never like actively sat down

They're very Yeah, they're like peak cultural osmosis stuff.

Yes, so, but yeah, I had never seen this movie or I feel like sick much in the way of any other Scooby Doo property. But I was, you know, keeping my eye on the pole and saw that Scooby Doo was taking the lead by a lot. I was like, well, I'll watch it. So I watched it a few weeks ago with our friend Bryant, and then I watched it two more times to prep for this episode.

Well, I mean, you've got to be ready. You've got to be ready because there's a lot going on in this movie. And I'm like, kind of serious.

I knew. I told you. Remember, we were like, You're like, I don't know if there's anything to say, and I was like, there's some stuff to say, and we'll say it. And then I also watched Scooby Doo two two thousand and four Monsters Unleashed.

I haven't seen that movie, I don't think since it came out out. So I'm thrilled to.

Hear Jamie, what is your relationship with Scooby.

Oh, you know, I love it. I love it. I love it. Maybe will not shock long time listeners of the show know that I love Scooby Doo.

I think that like it was maybe in like arrogant child brain. It was maybe one of the first cartoons I got burnt out on as a kid, because I really loved Mainline. I mean, they would show reruns on

Which I guess is true to canon.

But also it's like it's always like, oh, oh no, it's not you know, ghosts aren't real. It's just some some horny old guy. Yeah, it's you know, like in a very predictable way.

And so it was like as a kid, I remember loving it.

And then being like, oh my god, I think I know how every episode's going to end, and then abandoning the Scooby ship for a while.

I'll be honest I saw this movie in theaters.

I remember loving it, thinking it was a little raunchy, really being fixated on Sarah Michelle Geller's outfits, and being I think I've mentioned this on the show before, being I like there, I didn't like practical effects.

Or CG animals when I was.

A kid, and I think a particularly gnarly time to be a kid and be witnessing effects because I, with all due respect to you know, to the Scooby Hive, to the denizens of the Mystery Machine.

Scooby looks busted in these movies. He freaks me out.

He freaks me out, and yeah, Scooby Doo two thousand and two. Even as a kid, I was like, this is not this.

Is not my Scooby. I don't you know, this is not hashtag not my Scooby.

I was.

I was a little freaked by the Scooby But I loved this movie. I thought it was so funny. And I also am just like, as a.

Grown person interested in Scooby discourse, Scooby Dooby discourse as we call it in the community. I'm not a part of the community. Let maybe I just but I am interested because I feel like there is a lot of because it's been you know, as a property that's been around for I believe, let me check, I did know off the top of my head. Yeah, over half a century. These damn kids have been ripping masks off of old

Have perceived these characters. I think there's a huge queer.

Reading of the Scooby Doo expanded universe that is very unique and very cool and also ties into this movie directly for the sake of like I don't know, there's if you're a listener, there's a lot.

Of Scooby Doo content.

We're mostly going to be sticking to the movie, but you know, in the context of who these characters have meant, I think, especially with like Daphne and Velma and a little bit of Fred, there's a lot to talk about. I think it's an interesting and wholesome kind of property. And I do remember there was something of a shit storm surrounding, like discourse around the Mindy Kaling Velma series that came out last year. I'm gonna say I'm not touching that. I'm not touching that I didn't watch it.

I don't know. The only dull.

Thing I will say that I think is relevant to our discussion is that the cast of Scooby Doo has for a very very long time been white, just a bunch of white people. And then Velma, the HBO Max or whatever, just Max whatever, it's HBO, what trying to make Max happen?

Anyway, I know the world is going to be incinerated in ten years.

Nothing matters. Yeah, but the animated series Velma starring and I think like executive produced by Mindy Kaling. Mindy Kaling plays Velma. There's also Constance Wu plays Daphne and Sam Richardson plays Shaggy, as well as Glenn Howardton playing Fred. So three of the four main cast are people of color in the series. So it, you know, course corrects

It was more connected to just like the writing and how the series ended up.

I don't yeah, I again, I didn't watch it because it just seemed so nuclear. Maybe it was good. I don't know.

I yeah, I remember like there being an initial wave of excitement of like, oh, this historically like white group of teenagers. Like they're like they're diversifying this cast in a way that makes total sense. But then I do remember there being conversation around handling the queerness of the group was considered to be fumbled all this other stuff We didn't but that's not what we're talking about today.

He's currently in charge of that. Master Yeah has encountered his you know share of.

You know, public humiliation in the way that I feel like anyone who gets remotely near superhero properties does. But in general it seems to be a pretty beloved writer and certainly loves talking about Scooby doo So we're gonna be getting into that Scooby Dooey discourse.

But first, yes, first a break, and then we will come back for the recap, and we're back.

Is there any is rot Row, It's Scooby Dooey Doo, It's zoinks and for me it'sinks. Okay, h zoinks? What happens in this movie? Case?

Okay? Well, first of all, we are in Coolsville, USA. M ever heard of it?

I just like it's so Scooby Doobe goofy. I just love how like brain Dead some of it is. I love Yeah, Colesville, Yes, perfect.

We open on Mystery inc aka like the Scooby Game, solving a group of bisexual teenagers, Yes, and their large dog who can talk. They are solving a mystery at a toy factory. Of course, it's Shaggy played by Matthew Lillard. Fred is Freddy Prince Junior, Velma is Linda Cardellini, Daphne is Sarah Michelle Geller, and of course Scooby Doo and he's voiced by Neil Fanning.

Yeah, who is not our normal Scooby. I think we would normally have Oh gosh, Frank, not your normal Scooby.

Yes, okay, So they stop this guy, old man Smithers, who is pretending to be a ghost, and he's like, I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids.

Cloud yet another phrase intrinsically connected to the Scooby universe.

And then a bunch of people show up. What do you think, Pamela Anderson? God, And it's quote unquote her fault that old man Smithers did this whole thing to begin with because she wouldn't go out with him.

Frank.

So now, welker, Frank, oh, welker. And I only say that because we've talked about him on the show before. He's like a legendary voice actor. Yes, And I love voice actors. Okay, Frank Walker, but this is not Frank weldcler Let's go back to the discussion.

Yes, okay, So Pamela Anderson is there because it's her toy factory question mark.

Okay, not sure she's a girl boss to get the toy factory.

It's great, yeah, yeah, And so everyone's like, wow, good job, mystery inc.

This was a This was a big thing for movies of two thousand and two, because if we're talking about like goofy children's movies of two thousand and two, unavoidable or avoidable until I'm forcing the discussion, is a Master of Disguss starring Dana Carvey comes out in this same stretch of time, We've got Scooby Doo coming out in June. Master's Disguise on its heels August second, two thousand and two, and that movie also opens with a nostalgic to children, meaningless reveal of a famous woman.

In Master of.

Disguise, it's Bo Derek rips off a rubber mask with James Brolin, and she's Bo Derek, and that's you know, that's for parents. I guess this is I think that we're getting kind of a lot of and I have a quote for this.

Later in the episode.

But this movie, I think you can very clearly trace its lineage too, coming off the success of Shrek.

Shrek changed everything.

We know this to be true. I really do feel like it comes up on the show at least once a month. Shrek changed everything because now you have to have jokes for parents as well, and that becomes like very inherent to what popular children's media is.

And I think that you can.

Really really see that reflected in Scooby Doo, which comes out the following year, and James Gunn, Oh god, he used this very funny turn of phrase.

Oh he said in the heat of Shrek. That's what he said. There, excuse me, in the heat of Shrek. It's like in the heat of the kind of movie.

It's in the heat of Shrek.

In the heat of Shrek. But there is I think that that's.

Like there are there's a quality to these like children's movies of the early two thousands that are like a little raunchier than than they even are now.

Due to the heat of Shrek.

Wow, and and Trek makes me feel like I'm in heat, so you know.

What, so awesome, I'm sorry.

Okay, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry.

We're in the first scene of the movies.

Yes, yes, okay, So mystery Ink solves the mystery. Everyone's like, wow, good job, and Fred is like, yeah, I basically did everything, and so Velma is upset with Fred for taking credit for her plan, and she decides to quit.

I really like the choice of dynamics between characters.

I think there's room for more. We'll talk about it. But I kind of.

Because I'd seen this movie a bunch of times, but easily not in at least like five years, and I kind of forgot that, like Fred and Velma have a bit of a power struggle, but it makes sense with their characters, and I liked it.

Yeah, so yeah, so Velma quits. Then Daphne, who does not like that she's the one who's always getting kidnapped and damseled, also quits okay, and then Fred quits because everyone else is quitting, So now it's just Shaggy and Scooby. We cut to two years later. Shaggy and Scooby are living on the beach. They're just chilling, you know, they're just vamping.

Maybe they're vamping.

Isn't that what you would used to what.

No, there was a phrase that.

You have said on the podcast, like probably honestly seven years ago.

They're very Actually, I couldn't have said that. What was it?

Okay?

What was I trying to express at that time? Like just chilling lamping? Lamping lamp.

And even that now makes me sound ancient, crusty dead.

That's so.

Yeah, that was like what you would say if you were like hanging out with your friends in.

Two thousand and nine.

It's because and that's from a movie that we haven't covered, and I.

Don't think we ever need to Napoleon Dynamite. That's where that comes from. Oh, I am.

Not realize that was the source of it. Okay, So I love lamp lamping. Is that vamping is just like what you do when you're on stage and you need to kill ten.

The nice comedian is still not arrived, right.

Vaping is what they would have been doing if you could show that in the movie took place twenty years later.

What they are doing is smoking weed in a van for two.

Years, but that they're not allowed you know, you're not allowed to show it.

But in the heat of Shrek, you can imply it. In the heat of shrug. You can imply it, you just can't show it.

Yes, okay, so they're not vamping. They're lamping. Well, they are kind of just killing time until the rest of mystery something happens.

Yeah, they're really like the Yeah, they're eating, they're snacking.

But they're not detectives any more until they're approached by someone who wants them to come to an amusement park called Spooky Island because there's a mystery at the park that needs solving.

Another brainless title for a location, and you're like, mmm, the only way this could get better is if mister.

Bean was on the island. Well, guess what.

Baby, But first we go, we go to the airport and we see the gang reunite, which is important and formative because of Daphne's suitcases matching her dress.

Yes, yes, yes, the other members of Mystery Ink have also received letters inviting them to Spooky Island. None of them know that the other members of the group were going to be there, and so they kind of reluctantly bored the flight to Spooky Island. On the plane, Shaggy meets a woman named Mary Jane lay By Isle of Fisher.

Incredible that that is what she's doing in this movie, Mary Jane.

Again, we're in the heat of Shrek and these things will happen.

And Mary Jane and Shaggy have a lot in common, and they're flirting, they're vibing, they're lamping.

Maybe even we have to get it. We have to stop saying it. We have to.

Okay. So they arrive on Spooky Island and meet Emil Mondavarius ka Rowan Atkinson aka mister Bean.

We do quick? Have I mentioned this on the show?

I think about it frequently as a big James A castor fan.

Do you know where I'm going with this? Oh? Yes, okay.

I love James a Caster. He whatever he's doing right now, I wish him well. He released an amazing special and I think, like twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, I think calls like called like cold Lasagna in nineteen ninety eight,

Gregmand with mister mister Greg Bean, and anyways, I wish them the best.

Mister Bean still married to I'm not gonna give her government name, you know, like, but I just remember, I mean, it's a great special And I also was like, wow, James Acaster, classy for keeping that under your hat for ten years. I don't think I would have been that successful if if, if my beloved had had run out on me from one mister Bean. Anyways, mister Bean's on the island, yes, and he's not acting stilly, and so we're like, something's up.

So he believes he runs the amusement park Spooky Island, and I think the island is also called Spooky I'm not sure.

Anyway, we don't know.

He believes that someone is casting a magic spell on the college students who go to the park for spring break, and he believes this because they arrive all lively and excited, but when they leave, they're like kind of zombie esque. They're like just you know, dull and quiet.

Just kind of like boring, boring.

Right, Yeah, they don't leave, they're like I think the subtext to is like they arrive slutty, they leave.

Not slutty, they're not horny.

Just like interesting, what a quandary for mister Bean.

Right, So the Scooby Gang gets to work on solving the mystery. Velma goes to an event I'm not sure where. This guy nagu Tauna is pissed at a Meal for building his park on this land and disturbing and displacing these like creatures slash ancient beings who lived on the island, and the island is a thoroughfare to a supernatural realm. And we'll talk all about that representation, yes, in a bit.

At of the major weaknesses of a fine movie.

Yes.

So, now Nagoo is a suspect on a different part of the island. Daphne is investigating and runs into this man who is doing a quote unquote voodoo ritual. We will also talk about how that is represented. And he's like, definitely do not go into the Spooky Island Castle, and so she's like, well, obviously I have to go there now. Meanwhile, Scooby is being lured into the creepy forest with the promise of a bag of hamburgers, and while he's there,

Not that I could tell, No, And I do think, I mean, I guess that that is just like again, I mean and I mean it is maybe creatively foolish to have Scooby and Norvil shaggy rogers, you know, like in the mix and not.

Farting farts and burps. Yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of their whole their whole thing came.

Well, all come on and in the heat of trek and the of people and.

Farting booming for a burping and farting extravagance. In fact, I'm on IMDb right now, brack Wow.

Going to the.

Tags, the tags for Scooby you two thousand and two. First tag farting contest. Wow, second tag two thousand's, third tag strong female Character, fourth tag fart.

Okay, so.

You know there's a lot of which I mean, if you if those aren't shreky in tags as well.

I mean you could argue that you could. Yes, you certainly could. Okay, So the farting contest is happening. Meanwhile, Daphne finds this little like pyramid shaped relic of some kind, and so they all leave the castle and start doing further research. Velma goes to some kind of like restaurant lounge place to study the relic, which she thinks is something called the Damon Ritis, and this guy approaches her who's gonna kind of be her love interests sort of,

He couldn't be more script notes if he tried. This is a guy who wanders out of the ether he may not even be alive, and tries to force Velma Dinklely into like it's.

Like Gillie, it's like Jeelie.

What he's doing, He's he's just he's like, no canonically gay, you know, since clarified canonically gay.

Character, you are my girlfriend.

And she's like, oh, okay, boo boo to the nameless script notes guy. Yeah, Well she tells him about Mystery Inc. And we get this flashback of the Scooby Gang in the Mystery Machine and Scrappy Doo is there and.

He and now and now I'm really booing because I do you hate Scrappy do?

Can we all agree he hate Scrapy?

Yeah? Yeah, I do, I do d o O. He's a b I T th WHOA okay anyway, he pisses all over Daphne. Yeah, so they kick him out of the group.

He pisses all over Did you hear that sentence? Yeah, Scrappy Doo huge ooh I hate.

Scrappy Doo and even as a kid, I think kids find Scrappy Doo grating obnoxious. He tucks in his little well, he's Scooby Doo is his uncle, and he's disrespectful to him.

See, I, I guess have mixed feelings because while the character is you know, annoying and not a good person, not a good.

Dog, bad dog, bad dog.

But it's revealed that he has he's not a puppy, which I think is maybe commonly assumed that he is because he's small. But it's like, but they're like, he's not even a puppy. He has a gland disorder. And then all the characters laugh at him for it. They're like making fun of him for something he can't help.

So that I, again, I canonically choose to believe that that was a script note to make Scrappy more sympathetic to audiences because he is I because I do. I mean that on its face absolutely ablest. Yeah, but that is not canonical to the character Scrappy Do. What is cononical to the character Scrappy Do is.

Being annoying and I, oh, oh, he just pisses me off.

And I have a specific when he gets jacked at the end of the movie spoiler alert when he gets jacked, that CG has never sat well.

It's so scary, honestly, some of the worst CG that two thousand and two had to offer. And I was like, oh, maybe it's just because they had a low budget. But this had an eighty four million dollar budget.

No, they they could have and they didn't, and it requires it requires there should there should have been a federal investigation about it.

Yeah.

Anyway, so we learn about we meet you know, Scrappy Doo on screen in this movie for the first time, and he gets kicked out of the group. We cut back to the present and suddenly monsters attack and abduct Fred and Velma.

Because monsters are real question.

Mark, We don't no, but I think yes, I don't know.

I think in this world yes, which is you know, we don't have time to get into it, debate amongst yourselves.

So Fred and Velma have been abducted, so now it's up to Daphne, Shaggy Scooby, and also Mary Jane is there to solve the mystery and save their friends.

Also Mary Jane is there. It does sort of some of how that character is treated throughout the.

Movie, right, she's there also, she is there.

But the next day, after they've like all passed out on the beach for some reason, everything seems back to normal, as if there was no monster attack. And then Sugar Ray is there putting on a concert and nineties icon Mark McGrath.

He's up to start.

He starts singing to Daphne, but then she notices that his eyes have this green glow.

Because he has supernatural powers to doy, oh, I forgot about that cameo. What a treat for Mark McGrath to have his eyes start glowing green, trying to get Sarah Michelle Gellar to fall for his little tricks, Like just really unbelievable stuff. I really enjoyed it.

So his eyes are green, which is the color of Shrek. You know, I bet originally in the heat of Shrek, Shrek, you're gonna want to make things green.

Bet it was red originally. But they're like, no, no, no, green.

Green is green is the warmest color in two thousand and two in the Heat of Shrek.

Forget it.

Okay, So Shaggy finds Fred, whose eyes are also glowing green. Oh, along with basically all the other people on the island because they're possessed, and then they're also talking in a way that feels very culturally appropriative. Yes, for some reason.

We will get back to that too.

Yeah, but they are also trying to possess Shaggy and Scooby, who escape on a pair of four wheelers and they link back up with Mary Jane, but oh no, Scooby sees that she has green eyes too, and when he tries to tell Shaggy about it, Shaggy doesn't believe him, and so they kind of like have a fight, and then they all end up in this cave where Shaggy finds this like well type thing.

There's a lot of plot. There's a lot of plot in this area, and you're just sort of.

Like, h.

So, there's this well where all of the possessed, the people who have been possessed, they're like spirits slash souls slash protoplasms or swimming around, and Shaggy finds Velma's spirit and releases it so it can return to her body, and then the monster that was possessing Velma's body is kind of like forced out and explodes in the sunlight. So she realizes that these monsters need human bodies to survive and like walk around in the sunlight, which is

Is well, I mean, I'm sure we'll circle back to that scene as.

Well, but like the it felt very of the era where whenever one of the men's spirits would be transported into a woman's body, you would hear it just was very like prescriptive, where it's like the men's spirits would always be like, hey, this is my personality. But when it was the women's spirit, when it was a man spirit going into one of the into Daphnie or Velma's bodies, it was like, look at my boob, I'm gonna like.

It's just it was very like creepy, or.

Like, Daphne, don't you eat anything? What's wrong?

That was like, oh, my god, saying that to a young woman in two thousand and two, are you that's not it's not funny. One of the most fucking evil times for talking about women's bodies in the last you know, century, it's just it's just very ugly behavior. Yeah, that whole sequence, well, I think that there were interesting opportunities for that sequence sure fell flat for.

Me, I agree. Also reminded me of a similar sequence in Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle.

Yes, yes, and it was also.

A little bit freaky Friday, although that's you know, just between mother and a duaa. But just if there's any body swap with a person with breasts, they're going to grope themselves. Yes, and the implications will be complicated and it will not be very fun to watch.

Yeah, that seemed it was a bit of a mess.

Yeah. So eventually everyone ends up in the right body and Velma figures out that the creatures are about to perform the Dark copp Lips Ritual, another incredible naming convention. Yep, great turn of phrase, where the leader, whoever the leader is, needs to absorb a purely good soul to complete the ritual, and once the ritual is performed, the creatures will rule the world for ten thousand years.

Who's got a pure soul? Ah?

Well, of course it's Scooby Dooby.

Doo, even though he did bully his nephew but outside of that pretty pure.

M hmmm hmmm. And they realized that a Meal Mondavarius must be behind the whole thing since he invited Scooby and the gang to the island. So they go back to the cave to try to stop the ritual and save Scooby Doo, who has been kidnapped. But they get caught and Scooby's spirit gets plucked out of his body, but Shaggy saves him and he knocks over a Meal Mondavarius.

When we're at the point in the movie where it's like, oh, the steaks are Scooby Doo's very soul.

Yeah, the soul, the eternal soul of do.

I was just like, this movie is like unbelievably great. I had a list of things that happen in order of intensity and how much they shocked me.

Mister Bean wants Scubert to take advantage of his pure soul. That's the meeting that takes place, and there's a great shot where.

Scooby Doo is smiling at a picture of himself, yes and laughing. Next, mister Bean wants Scooby to sacrifice himself to God. Basically, then mister Bean wants to absorb Scooby Doo's soul so.

He can live forever.

And then what we're about to get to Freddie Prince Junior pulls off mister Bean's face to reveal that he's a chucky cheese animatronic robot.

Yes, and the person inside or the being inside is scrappy Do.

Crappy Do, and where like mister Bean was scrappy Do?

And what does that mean in the context of the James A. Caster story?

Whoa Well? And then it's I'm getting ahead of myself here, but it's revealed that there is actually a guy named Emil Mondavarius and Scrappy Do had been like hiding him in a dungeon for the past two years.

Unlike, we can't even talk about the political implications of what took place on Spooky Island, like.

It is just absolutely it's sick. It's sick what was done?

M hmm, Okay, So Scrappy Doo turns out to be the bad guy and he has absorbed enough souls to turn into this big muscular monster dog thing and he's trying to kill Scooby and the others. But meanwhile, Daphne has escaped and she like goes up onto the mountain and opens the vents to let the sunlight in. But there's this luchador guy who I forgot to mention earlier, but he's friends with Nagua and he shows up up and so she fights him because she's no longer the

It's a cheap move, but you know, yes, we're cheering.

So she's fighting him, and she opens up the vent and the light comes in, and then down below the others are able to stop Scrappy Doo. This is when they find the real a meal Mandavarius. Everyone reunites, some people kiss each other or they're like canoodling, and the possessed college kids go back to normal and the day is saved. And then the movie ends with Shaggy and Scooby eating a big meal the end.

Like them do do.

We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll rewright.

And we're rack.

We're rack.

With your permission, I would like to start this discussion, yea, with the discussion of queerness within the Scooby universe, please, So there's quite a bit to discuss here. I think like as we sort of alluded to earlier in the episode, there is a fair amount of.

Just like lore as far as it goes.

I think the characters who have been most famously queer coded in the crew, I think Velma is the most popularly discussed one. Going back to the show's initial release, there was always, I guess, sort of an undercurrent of questioning what her sexuality was.

You know, I think it's reasonable in a children's cartoons.

Like it wasn't addressed, and I don't think at the time it would have ever been. I think that the main certainly not and what you did know, And I think because you have in this group, you have like four very specific types that make sense for nineteen sixty nine. You have a stoner, you have a quote unquote like nerdy girl, you have a popular girl, and you have a.

Jock, all very typed characters.

But what I think is cool is like you don't usually see these characters as like being close friends. However, inside of that, the quote unquote cool guy and cool girl friend Daphne, they're always paired together. That is very much implied within this movie as well, to the point where they cast a married couple as Fred and.

Daphne right, and then they kiss at the end, and then.

They kiss at the end. I mean, it's and that's very inherent to who those characters have been speculated to be.

But I think that Scooby Doo two thousand and two and Scooby dooee scholars I'm sure could trace this earlier.

But starting in Scooby Doo two.

This at least was attempted to be like these long discussions because there also was discussion of potential queer coding for Fred.

This was sort of the first.

Time that this was even attempted to be addressed in the Scooby Doo be universe.

So what that means?

And James Gunn addressed this in a twenty twenty Twitter thread.

Because he just the man loves to talk. There were two characters who.

Were planned to be explicitly queer to some extent. Fred's character is a little more complicated, so we'll get to that in a second. But James Gunn says in twenty twenty, in two thousand and one, Velma was explicitly gay in my initial script, but the studio just kept watering it

Right, and then the sequel, Seth Green shows up and he becomes her.

Love interest, and you know, and I have no comment.

I have no comment to my dear friend Seth Green, and later, like Linda Cardelini, would also comment on this, all of the actors. I think that the difference between I feel like there is this tendency for writers creators in general, to like course correct their work in retrospect, to be like, oh well, I actually like I think that the most popular example from one of the worst people of all time was when JK. Rowling originally was like,

It was written in the heat of Shrek.

I think that James Gunn's script was approved as a more I mean problematic in its own ways, but even just an attempt at LGBT representation at all. In two thousand and two in a kid's movie would have been you know, different, and it would have meant something, but it was all cut out and mister script notes was added and on all of this. Linda Cardilini has also commented on this. She said, Velma has been around since

Sort of active for decades.

I think her being a lesbian has been hinted at so many times, and I think it's great that it's finally out there, which is in response to the first time that Velma Dinkley was explicitly stated as a queer character is in twenty twenty two, like exactly a year ago to the day we're recording this happy coming out anniversary to Velma. In a TV movie called Trigger treat Scooby Doo, she's depicted as a queer woman who has a crush on a character named Coco Diablo.

Because of course, sure we're not covering that movie. And then in the in the Mindy Kaling.

Iteration, I believe she's bisexual and I believe in the Mindy Kaling version, Daphne is also bisexual.

I couldn't say don't know anything about.

It again Scooby dooe scholars sound off, but I think that like the fact that truly like it's an interesting kind of yardstick to measure what is considered quote unquote acceptable in widespread children's media. That it was literally just last year that Velma was.

Was a queer character in a way that like was not challenged, but there were I think.

That Scooby Doo two thousand and two is kind of the earliest meaningful attempt from what I was able to gathera.

Fred was also written to be a queer character.

Freddie Brince Prince Junior has stated in interviews that that was what he was told when he took the part, and so his performance was that was his performance.

And then the way that it was edited didn't honor that.

But I do think it's interesting that the actors were playing queer characters, but the movie would not let them actually be those characters. The scene that was shot and cut the I think most explicitly, there was a kiss between Daphne and Velma. Apparently in this scene Daphne and Fred are together and they run into drunk Velma when she's at the bar, and she's I guess, like flirting ambiguously, and it seems like she's actually flirting with Daphne. That's

Is very inherent to this movie.

Sarah Michell Geller told sci Fi Wire in two thousand and two that a Velment and Daphnie kissing scene was cut out from the film.

Quote, it wasn't just like for fun.

Initially, in the soul swapping, velmentt and Daphnie could not seem to get their souls back together in the woods, and so the way they found was to kiss, and the souls went back into.

The proper alignment unquote.

So that soul swapping scene that we discussed as not loving was also initially difference, and I guess significantly rewritten.

So I think it is interesting.

I will sort of leave it to individual listeners to decide, but I mean, I do think that that would have made a difference and certainly would have impacted the direction that this Goopy franchise took for there if James Gun's original script had been honored. But I think it's just very frustrating and telling that this like simple choice that seemed like it would have been pretty consistent with who the general public thought these characters to be wouldn't be honored for another twenty years.

Wild.

Yeah, And there's like additional coding with Velma's character and then kind of how she's compared to Daphne, because, as you were saying the whole, you know, these characters are very stereotyped as being you know, one's the jock, one's the smart girl, one's the hot girl, one's this stonor This movie honors those like very archetypal type of character pretty in a way that's like not at all challenged.

I feel like that was a little like complicated in the scrape of the movie, because it's like the movie acknowledged because it's like, obviously these the girls are hot, like they're both right, well.

Be serious, stop joking around, stop fucking with me.

But the way that I thought that was addressed because it's like, I mean, Velma, I feel like is very peak, like.

You would be so beautiful if you take of your glasses girl.

And that has always been true, like she's always been like an adorable character. And the way that it's addressed in this movie is that Fred at one point says to Velma like that, He's like, no, I get it.

Like you're you're also hot.

He says, dorky girls like you turn me onto Yeah, you're like scoffs at it, and he's like, what it's a compliment.

That that was a disaster.

I think that as close as the movie comes to acknowledging that, like these women are both gorgeous, but yeah, like like you're saying, like plays into the stereotypes surrounding the stock characters that I don't know, I mean, I I think that the movie did better than I was expecting it to off of memory, just in the I don't know, the weird middle place where I felt I had feelings about this surrounding the recent Barbie movie as well, where it felt like the movie had a real vested

Like pretty I guess more so with Daphne.

But like presents Daphne as like, well, we all think of Daphne as this damsel.

In distress, but what if she had a problem with.

That, and then that's her that's her journey throughout the movie, which I don't really have a problem with it, just it seems like it's like a step towards being able to do something more with that character. Is like addressing I don't know, there's more, there's plenty of ways to handle that, but like addressing the public perception, pushing the character through that public perception and.

Then hopefully moving them onto something cooler. But I don't know.

Daffey's story I thought was interesting. I think it's like tricky because she is still presented as like not as smart as the rest of the group at different moments. But I was, you know, in the heat of Shrek, I was, I guess, like gently impressed at how she did sort of like tackle people's assumptions about her fairly

And then at the end she fights.

A lucha door so okay, right, which.

Mirrors the evolution of her character and how it went in the various like series where in the original animated series that you know premier in the late sixties, she was very much just like danger prone, you know, she didn't seem to have a lot to contribute, and she was always the one getting kidnapped. But then later versions of the show made a change to her character, so like versions that came out in the nineties and two thousands had her knowing martial arts and like being able

Yes it is, and you're just like.

And it's presented in a very like jokey way, so that's yeah, like of course, right, and then she's fed up with always being the damsel in distress. So in the two years where the group has disbanded, she has learned martial arts, and but then throughout a big chunk of the movie, she's still I guess it's a matter of her, you know, being like I can do this. I'm not gonna get captured again. Oops I did get captured, And so there's like this.

It's definitely stop and go, and I like and I feel like there's a lot of ways to view it. I yeah, I was struggling with that because you're like, Okay, they're not really like, you know, Mary suing her, but also it felt like it was playing her recapture is more of a joke.

Than anything else. I don't know. I think that if, like if this storyline.

For Daphne was presented in a movie that came out today, I would be really exhausted by it because she's.

Like, I'm not a damsel in distress, uh.

Which I think at this is like pretty overdone and hackneyed and blah blah blah.

But for the time I think.

That it was like it's it's at least an interesting way to kind of publicly course correct the character. As I don't know, I think that they could have done more to be like, she's actually a very competent person, and there's a way. I think that the Barbie boovie does this far more effectively of saying like hyper femininity or even just traditionally feminine qualities and aesthetics does not equal weakness, does not equal incompetence, does not equal being

And I like that they.

Don't, you know, they don't sacrifice, like what makes what is important? Like she likes wearing purple, and she likes having cool outfits and like I love that for her, and I.

Like that, you know, as she's proving that that.

It's not like I feel like sometimes you get sort of when when women are you know, asked to like step up and become leaders, they have to, they're asked to shed elements of who they are, and it's like, if that's something that you want to do, great, but it feels almost like the way to be taken seriously is to present more masculine, and Daphne does not do that.

Barbie does not do that right. It's it's like, I think, a worthwhile message, but yeah, the way that she's characterized is very kind of It was hit and miss for me Seene to see.

For me, I didn't mind the arc of you know, deciding she basically she quits because she doesn't like that she's always being damseled or that that's like it almost feels like a commentary on the just the idea of being damsel.

Does somebody say commentary?

And you know, she decides to take matters into her own hands, but then applying the skills that she learned obviously is going to take some time to get used to, and so she still is you know, she's she's working out the kinks as the story goes, but then by the end her arc is fully realized with that fight with the luchador who is in the movie for some reason, and she kicks his ass, and you know, it's very a two thousand and two way to handle all of that. But yeah, I didn't mind it terribly.

I think a valiant attempt for two thousand and two in this arena. Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised. And I think that like the downside of that, which based on James Gunn's James Gunn's characterization, so we you know whatever, We can't say for totally sure, but it seems like the you know, Fred kiss at the end, I would guess that that's studio notes because that felt pretty unconnected to what her journey throughout the movie was.

You don't even really see her.

And Fred interacting very much like Fred's main story very much has to do with this like ego ego deaf in like acknowledging that Velma is a person who is smarter than him, so his story is unconnected to Daphne.

So its just I think that like more so they're like, oh.

We need we need a series of heterosexual moments because it's the end of the movie and these two characters are already publicly associated as husband and wife and also.

Cartoon boyfriend girlfriend brant makeup kiss.

But even that, that felt like I liked that Daphne's main story was, you know, like it is like a proto like but for a kids movie in two thousand and two.

I think it works. And I.

Enjoyed Sarah Michelle Galler's performance. And did I enjoy the outfits?

Yes, I did? I love those? Damn it? Any other any other thoughts on Diffney, Oh, you're wearing your Flubber Mambo T shirt?

Yes, I sure am in the heat of flubber.

In the heat of flubber.

Another another huge green influencing I mean, what a decade for the color green Flubber track Jim Carrey Grinch on the same five year span incredible three year span ninety eight, two thousand, two thousand and one.

Way flump wow, hm, mind blowing Kermit's impact.

Yes, well, let's talk about dak Alright, let's talk about Velma.

Yes, I similarly like that her arc is being frustrated that a man is taking credit for all of her work because she's like recognizably the best at solving mysteries. She is doing a lot of deductive reasoning. She understands what a lot of clues mean. She's doing a lot thing. It's her whole thing.

She's always been the smartest person in the group.

I will say the detail that she in the two year interim was kind of military industrial complexing.

They say she was developing.

Missiles for NASA, right, and you're like, now, that is a misapplication of Velma Dinkley's powers.

I like to think that she is. She is a leftist.

I was like, why is she making missiles for the government. Imagine being getting so mad at Freddy Prince Junior that you pivot to making missiles for the government. I know, I also making missiles for NASA. That also feels like a mismatch, because you're like, what is missiles to.

Like fireing for aliens in outer space?

It felt weird that they said she was making missiles for NASA. For NASA, hey, astronaut gangs. Now, I'm sure a lot of like people with doctorates listen to this show because we're so intellectual. So fucking yeah, we're just a really well educated show and That's why this.

Master's degree well in screen writing from Boston University. Not that I'd ever mention it.

I'm just saying that people that are geniuses want to listen to Scooby Doo for two hours. But she was like bad practice for Alma developing missiles in her off time.

We will won't give it a past this time.

But in the yeah, in the heat of nine to eleven, she's developing missiles, and I'm just like, these are I don't hold I think they're supposed to be in like I think you're supposed to be like college aged.

So you're like, did Velma vote for Bush?

Oh, she's developing missiles, Caitlin, I mean, I mean Daphnie.

I would say Daphney. I think Daphne votes blue. No matter. I don't want to get into the politics of it.

Shaggy's a libertarian, though that much is obvious.

Shaggy Oh, he's.

An independent thinker, which but like he doesn't know what he's talking about, which is very libertarian.

Cut No, if Funny one it's a libertarian. I think it's Fred. I think Shaggy is green Parky.

Shaggy doesn't vote. He doesn't vote, and Spooby. Scoopy is an anarchist. Well, yeah, Scooby wants to burn it all down because they don't let.

Him vote, they don't let him voote.

It's also Scooby gender non conforming icon in this movie.

Before we get development because she's developing missiles, she has to wait for a second. Scooby.

I don't have much to say about Scooby other than I mean, check this guy out.

He looks a little scary in this movie, but that's.

Not his fault. That's the fault of the bad CGI at the time.

And Scoopy is you know, Scooby is a part of our lives, whether we like it or not.

Scooby is a part of our lives.

And you know, Scooby does where a dress. Scooby is in Grandma Drag during the plane scene.

And you know, I didn't hate it. I didn't hate it.

I think what was interesting about that scene is it Scooby's and Gradma drag.

First of all, everyone on at the airport thinks falls for it, falls for it.

Dan thinks it's hot. They're like this thing that's very visibly a dog in a dress.

Dog.

They're like a woogah.

And then I think most interestingly, Scooby punches Fred in the face in Grandma Drag and it is never commented on.

It doesn't come back Fred, there's no consequence. Fred just goes, oh.

Well, he initiates the violence. He flicks Scooby on the nose. Scooby, I will sco punching him.

That was out of pocket from Scooby. Ye, not that it was like, you.

Know, this flicks certainly an invasion of personal space. But Scooby really dex Fred. And I'm sure I was laughing when I was when I was a child. Sure I'm laughing with Scooby punch his friend in the face. So I just wanted to give a quick shout out to Scooby gender nonconforming icon, Scooby self confidence icon, because when he's told he's pure of hearts, Scooby's not fighting it.

He's like, yeah, that tracks, that makes sense.

Scooby, you know, has some work to do as an uncle, but he's on the journey. I love Scooby, and I really I don't really have anything to it's not relevant to our discussion commenting on how much I like the scene between Matthew Lillard and Scoopy when he's like, Scooby, you're my best friend.

I'm not gonna let mister Bean do this to you. But I teared up. I thought it was really nice. And I think their friendship.

I mean, Scooby and Shaggy they're special together. They're special together, and I love them. All Right, let's go back to Velma.

Yes, so Velma is fed up with this man taking credit for her work. Yep, and she quits. Then Fred's arc becomes about learning to respect Velma and recognize and acknowledge her contributions to the group, and to stop taking credit for her work. The bar is very low here, and yet but that is his arc. And yet we're cheering and we're clapping when it happens.

Yes, we're like yay, Yeah, we are really conditioned to accept very little from Fred here, because I like found myself on my first watch congratulating Fred on things that were like nonsensical.

I'm like, wow, he acknowledged that Velma is an attractive person, And you're just like, why am I giving Fred credit for nothing? Yeah?

But yeah, his arc is that he like learns to conceive some of the credit. I don't really remember within I don't know. I guess I just never had. Hopefully Scooby fans won't take this personally. I never had a very vested interest in Fred. I would say, if I'm ranking the characters, he is dead last. Wait, rank them, ranked them really quick and include Scooby.

Oh my goodness, Well go it's important.

Scooby number one, good, good, good, keep going.

I would say, with Alma, number two, daph Name number three, Shaggy, and maybe this.

Is still great, but he is he.

I find him kind of irritating.

Are you ranking Fred above Shaggy?

No? But Fred is last. But I just don't have a lot of respect for Shaggy. Although I do relate.

You're like Shaggy needs to get his ass up at work.

Shaggy, I do relate.

To his interest in food. I like that he's always hungry. I'm always hungry.

Wow, you're like Shaggy lazy, lazy.

It's more that I I don't know. Would I want to date Shaggy? Noe? Do I want to date Fred?

That's not what's on. I'm not what's on. But how fuckable as Shaggy to you? No one asked? No one asked.

Although I think I have dated a kind of a serious of shaggy tests, to the point where first time currently dated dating showed up to my house the other day accidentally, you know, like accidental minion, when someone's wearing yellow top and jeans, accidental shaggy.

Oh, green shirt, green shirt, corduroy pants.

Scary, wow, scary awesome.

But well maybe he was trying to look like Shrek.

But then you're gonna need to get a vest, and for someone to have a vest it is just so Shrek intentional.

So Shrekian, if you will, yes.

In the Shrekian heat. My my writings are the same as yours, except.

I am swapping Daphnie and Palma.

Okay, but yeah, obviously Scooby number one, let's not play around.

I love a talking animal Paddington.

Hello, I don't even like a talking animal. I love Scoopy Ruby Ruby Roo. And I think it's only because he like he talks. Scooby. Hmmm, that's a character in this tone poem.

Scooby only speaks when he has something to say, he's not just running his map. I really appreciate that, and a character I appreciate.

When he's he is careful.

He he can speak English as a dog.

He can speak English, but he's not you know, he's not waxing.

Poems his words very carefully.

And that's not to say he doesn't have a very rich interior life, because you know he does. You know, there's a lot going on in that big old dog cranium of his.

Although there is one thing he says that I did not like one bit, and it's when he's trying to convince Shaggy that Mary Jane is actually a monster, and Shaggy is like, nah, I don't believe you, first of all, believe Scooby's. Secondly, Scooby's response to that is saying, you're whipped.

Yeah. And I was like, first of all, who told Scooby what that means?

Who taught him that?

And you know, maybe not.

To call Shaggy out as a bad you know, parent, slush friend. I bit Shaggy taugh him that there.

You think Scooby learned that on the beach where.

I think Scooby learned it from Fred?

Ah, very possible, very possible. Yeah, And I think that that is I'm grateful. I mean, I not that I think that the concept of being quote unquote whipped has made its way out of media entirely.

I do think that.

Phrase has has sort of gone the way gone the way of Jim Carrey.

Grinch's not around anymore.

It did, but I haven't heard it in over a decade.

I think, I think, yeah, and I think I think that that is that's you know, that's something. I was kind of jarred to hear that phrase because I was like, oh, I know, I kind of forgot that was a thing, And why is Scooby Doo saying it? And why was it really so pervasive that.

Scooby Doo could say it and the Shaggy would be insulted by it?

Because I think something that is nice about Shaggy in general is that he is a and also, you know, I'm ranking him four out of five, but the first three are so strong. I like Shaggy a lot, and I think that like he is a very emotionally generous and that a character in ways that men are not

He's not playing the fred game, he's not nagging her. He's like and so yeah.

Again, for like the whipped thing to be introduced and for Shaggy to be insulted, it also just felt like out of character because you're.

Like, I don't think Shaggy both of them gives a ship. Yeah, Like, what's getting into these boys? There's there's there's such nice guys.

Well, it's these creatures that it's the monster.

It's the monsters that were unleashed. Yeah.

So that that I found to be That was not Scooby's best moment, but I have to believe that he grew from it. And I oh, Scoopy.

All right, velma okay, so velma. Yeah. I do also like and it feels very of.

The time and in that same sort of like mission that it seems like James Gunn had that we've been talking about of addressing just like the popular tropes or the popular opinions around this character and attempting to challenge them, which it seems like having her be explicitly queer in this movie was an extension of that mission, but barring that, like addressing like how she is always been considered to be the smartest person of the group but is.

Not considered to be the leader.

And why is that and like exploring that through the story I think is a really smart move.

And I.

Like, I mean, I don't know. I still think that Fred ends up a little bit too on top for my taste towards at the end of the movie, and that, Yeah, the conclusion of this movie just in general is tricky because I like Filma's journey. I obviously don't like scriptnotes boyfriend, but he's barely there. He kind of is just there to like set up a flashback and then comes back

But I did appreciate that.

I mean, it was like a smaller arc, but that Velma starts sort of I mean, it's like you see those dynamics in real life of like there are you know, two women in this group and one is turning on the other to try to gain favor of the shitty men that they're surrounded by.

It's a dynamic that definitely exists.

It sucks, but it exists, and it feels like that is sort of hinted at within this group. And then Velma to some extent realizes.

The error of her ways, and I like that. I like and like Linda Cardalini is a great Velma true.

Trope that is addressed in a way that I did not think was productive and was just like showing the thing was you'd be.

So pretty if you took off your glasses.

The sequence in which Filma's glasses are off, she's more sexualized immediately.

Well, and this happens to an even greater extent in the sequel where she's trying to impress Seth Green. So Velma takes off her glasses, she suddenly has hair that's twice as long. I don't know if she put in some extensions or something. And then she's wearing this like pleather red, like very squeaky outfit that's like very form fitting, and she's doing this to impress Seth Green because that's

He's definitely a red hairring.

The end that he has red hair.

Did you think you know what when Fred was possessed by the monster. He very much.

And I feel like I'm bringing up the Barbie Movie a lot also because we're kind of preparing to cover the Barbie Movie. And I saw the Barbie Movie. I have a lot of issues with it, but I saw four times in theaters. I have two Barbie Halloween costumes and I'm wearing.

My Barbie crocs right now.

Fred when he's possessed by the monster looks like Beach can see.

I think that Freddie Prince Junior as Fred is he's giving, He's giving Ken Ken Ryan Goslins as the Barbie movie.

Yes, I also made that, except that he is. I mean, I guess that. Well, we'll talk about the Barbie episode. Ryan Goslin.

Ken is also absolved to a degree that I found to be a little silly, as is Fred. Because you know, these issues, they're cyclical. We just have to keep forgiving men with certain kinds of hair.

But what were we talking about?

Who can say, Oh, we were talking about how Velma is treated in the sequel. Well that I mean that that is nice, but also again an over rewarding of the male character to be like, wow, he liked so well.

Woman for being a person.

And then the reason I brought it up is because it's Daphne's idea for Velma to dress like that, and they have this really bizarre conversation where she's like, I'll help you pick out an outfit, and and before that, Velma's like, I don't know how to get him to like me. I'm not hot, and then Daphne's like, I'm not hot either. Anyway, let's go change our outfits. And it's just like, WHOA who wrote this exchange?

I'm bombed.

I have had that exact exchange with women friends like I look like shit, No, I look like shit.

Well I'm gonna change my shirt. But this is children's media, you know. Don't do that. Don't do that.

Do that.

Ultimately, with Vamma.

I appreciate that this is her story, Like her main story is challenging friends, being an asshole.

The story is very clearly on her side.

I think that there is a marked difference with how I don't think that well.

Vilma is damseled at one point, but then.

Is rescued by Daphne and like giving Daphne this big moment of agency and challenging how Shaggy viewed her to not be an active member of the group, and like we get moments with Daphnie and Shaggy where they're sort of presented as like the less effective members of the group, and Daphne is like.

No, we have to do this.

I think that the way that Vilma is quote unquote damseled but like I would say, more just captured generally that with the exception of that one, I think that like even towards the end, she and Fred are captured simultaneously and are equally active.

In getting out of the sea situation.

So to me, that's like not even really a damseling. That's just you know, that's just monsters when they're unleashed.

I mean, they're going to be capturing people.

One thing about monsters. Don't unleash them. You're to be in a.

World of trouble. Yes, So those are our gals. Yea, let's talk about we.

Hinted this, but they're the this movie and this franchise, and this movie does not move the needle on this really at all is a very very white franchise. And the way that this movie handles any even a hint at a non white, non American culture is handled I think pretty poorly, real.

Real bad.

So one example is the group of people who, first of all, they're it's very vague, but they seem to be coded as Polynesian in the most like generic stereotyped way possible.

It's like almost impossib the comment on because you're like, I don't even know to the extent that the writer knows what they're even saying.

Right, It's almost as if he just like took existing troupes and stereotypes, and.

Which, to be fair, if I'm remembering correctly, are present in the Scooby universe. But it's two thousand and two, and you don't have to do that, even in the heat of Shrek.

Don't even racist, Like come on, yes, yes, so there's so there's like this just this vague coding. The character of Nagoo, who by the way, is played by a white British actor named Stephen Grives or Grieves Okay. He's explaining that he and the other people are upset that Emil Mandavarius displaced ancient creatures. There's no mention of displace seeing, you know, people, which is the thing that happens when colonizers come in and steal land from indigenous people.

Which I mean, and this feels like, especially in the cartoony universe of Scooby Doo, like an actual opportunity to comment on it, because you're theoretically you'd be displacing people to start a shitty theme park, like it is like a cartoonish situation and feels like a missed opportunity.

Right, But instead they seem to be primarily upset that these ancient creatures which are also monsters. And there's references to like the island being this like thoroughfare to this like mystical realm, so there's all this like mysticism attributed to this indigenously coded people. There's also that luchador character named Zarkos, and it's like, Okay, why do these Polynesian coded people have a why is there like a cultural thing from Mexico?

Right?

It is just like treating like this movie. And I think that the Scooby Doo universe in general, and a lot of media that dates especially because like this is it almost feels like if you want to make a lazy, racist writing choice, then for sure adapt a property that came out forty years ago.

And then and it's like, oh.

Well, that property is likely already deeply raisist in the way it's portrayed any other culture, and like it's it's really frustrating and like, yeah, just over the top cartoonish to the way that this movie and this franchise in general up until more recently treats every culture that is not white Midwestern Americans as a monolith.

It's wild.

And then there's also the representation of voodoo, where there's a character whose name we never learn, everyone just calls him Voodoo Man. He is played by an actor named miguel A Nunez Junior.

We really hope he was paid well, because of course he was not for this.

I know, I know, but I have to say it out loud and to keep optimism alive.

Sure, we see him in I believe, two scenes. Both times he's trying to conduct again a quote unquote voodoo ritual, but again it's nothing that resembles actual practices of the Voodoo religion. We talked about this a lot on the Princess and the Frog episode, Yeah, where if you're interested to hear more detail, like.

The full history of appropriation and that because that's also Yeah, in.

The Princess and the Frog.

It's appropriation within the context of New Orleans specifically, and I mean there's it's it's a very deep history.

Yes, so in this movie it just just presented as like a gag. I don't even know. You could write that character out of the movie and it would not really make much of a difference. He's only there to suggest something about the castle. But like that could have just happened to different, like the whole thing, both the representation of voodoo of the indigenous coded people.

Yeah, I even hesitated to call it representation, like it's like it's just like saying shit in a way that's offensive.

Yeah, Like it's Yeah, the presence of it, I guess is like it all reads as no thought or research went into anything. It's just relying, relying on and reinforcing existing stereotypes. The filmmakers, it just seems like they're like, well, who cares, only white people are going to see this anyway, and sit.

Like that, you know, again, deeply untrue and uh yeah that's super I mean I I honestly, I'm gonna be honest and say I've seen a single damn Guardians of the Galaxy movie.

And furthermore, I don't plan to.

I bravely have seen all three.

Well, I guess that's my question, not that it in any way excuses the way that he handles a.

Series of cultures throughout this movie.

Is this something that in James Gunn's body of work there's been movement on from what you've witnessed or I'm always curious in like how someone course corrects or doesn't throughout the course of their career.

Right, I have not watched those movies through that lens. The main thing that comes to mind is zoeis sol Donna, another example of her, you know, not being allowed to show her actual skin and instead she's much like Shrek. She's green, he's green.

She is green in those movies.

And even I know that as someone who is really like kind of like absurdly avoided not those movies specifically, but just like.

They make me tired.

I got so depressed after I saw Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. I was like, wow, like a Sam Raimi superhero movie, We're so back, and then it just absolutely sucked so hard and I fell asleep, and then I was just like, I'm done with these motherfuckers. I'm done I'm not seeing them anymore. They don't even let Sam Raimi make a good one. He made Spider Man two. I know what kind of joke is this.

I think that Alfred Molina could have played the Mister Bean character. Just for the record.

Oh sure, yeah, of course, yeah yeah.

But he was in Freedom this year, so he couldn't read.

He was busy. I don't think I have anything else to talk about. Do you do you d o? O?

Jamie Scooby, do you do you?

No? I don't, I I uh, I do not.

I think that that is all I have to say about Scooby Doo two thousand and two. But I will say that I I was pleasantly surprised by how much of this movie held up better than I thought it was.

However, Caitlin Darante, does this movie pass the Bechdel test? Sorry?

First of all, my name is Caitlin Dante.

D o O huh.

And secondly, I think it does right. I forgot to pay attention as per usual.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say the rectal rest? Does this movie rest? Yes? It does? It does? Yeah? Between Velmont and Daphne.

Uh, there there's a few ext I mean there's some exchanges that are about you.

Know, characters I for example, Scooby Doo, but usually when they're talking they I think one stood out to me was Daphne protesting to Velma, characterizing her as helpless.

But they also talk about ghosts.

And monsters, who I think, in the context of this movie are presented as relatively genderless, and so would I would have that count Well we didn't. Oh, actually, really quick, we didn't talk about.

Mary Jane, oh right.

Who I think is Like it's frustrating because I think that, like Daphne and Velma.

Are the best characterized of the four.

I think that the women are given more precedents and more significant arc than the men of the story.

That's rare, that's cool.

And then we have Mary Jane, who I think is very much presented as a girlfriend character in a more kind of stock character way.

We get depth to her in that she is possessed, but.

I would ultimately say that she's a possessed girlfriend character and a waste and I don't like seeing people waste Isle of Fisher's time.

I think is is what I believe to be true. So that's uh.

But anyways, this movie does pass the rectal rest and the Bechfel test. But what about the most important metric of all time?

If you're referring to the ripple rail.

God, it sounds so gross when you when we scoobyfy any of the like vernacular associated with the show. Yes, the rectal test and the ripple rail.

Oh aka the nipple scale, on which we rate the movie zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. Yeah, I'll give this movie, I guess, two nipples. I think that while it does rely on some pretty tropey ideas of female characters and like the way they are designed, the way they are presented feels rather tropy at times, rather ropy rather ropey. I do appreciate that they are given the bar is low here,

Yes, and it actually follows through, because I feel like so often in this era you would get the beginning of that message and it would bear out in no significant way. So I do think ups On actually having the vague feminist statement.

Results in something wow, crumbs, crumbs. And also that scene where she fights is I mean, for me, it's it's a sleigh.

It's great, it's good, it's it's fun.

And speaking of sleigh, it's kind of giving Buffy the vampire sleigh.

Or if we're saying this, the the vernacular is dead, and if it's if it's arrived at.

Us, you know, it's well Jamie don't.

Yeah, I was gonna ask if you want to come over and lamp with me later, something that hasn't been said in decades. And also I never even heard it, I don't.

I was like, it's very possible that that was like reaching New England parlance in my area. After we saw Napoleon Dynamite five years after it came out.

Really don't know, we really don't know what what all that was.

Then we should come for Napoleon Dynamite.

But I said earlier, I never want to.

Oh, sorry, okay, but I had to take it back.

But why did I say that. I don't know. I think I just don't want to watch it.

Oh well, our job, Jamie, is to watch every.

Movie we wanted to watch. We wanted to watch Scoopy.

Yeah it's true anyway, Okay, okay, So that is Daphne's storyline. Velma's storyline is being frustrated that a man is taking credit for her work, a very familiar thing and.

We've both been there.

We've both been there, and the end of the movie, the situation is that. So really it's kind of like a redemption for Fred, which is kind of annoying, yes, but it is Velma being acknowledged and recognized publicly, like in front of the press, on the news, on the news, for her work. And then he also like again the bar is so low here, but he gives her the space to like tell the story for herself and say, like,

He tried, He tried.

It was two thousand and two, so.

I appreciate the attendant, right.

Yes, So you know, maybe I'll bump it up to two and a half even and I'll give one to Elma, one to Daphne, and one to Ruby Ruby Rue or one half.

I'm gonna give two and a half to the version that or not I'm gonna give. I'm gonna give two and a half to the version that came out on three, to the version that James Gunn intended. I think that the the racism in this movie is pretty.

Uh obviously fucked up. Not that there's any obvious way to do that, but it's pretty flagrant, I guess, is what I'm saying.

The way that a number of cultures are not only turned into a monolith, but insulted on top of that, and on top of that, just like a lot of missed opportunities for inclusivity that the franchise takes. We know now with the benefit of time decades to course correct on I was interested to learn about the history of trying to include queer characters in this franchise and the very of the time way that that was prevented from happening.

This is my character for two thousand and two. That is fairly impressive.

And then to piggyback on what you were saying, I think that, yeah, the I wouldn't have expected of this era for the two characters of the five to be most focused on would be the two women, and that yes, at their core, they are kind of like simple feminist messages, but in the context of a kid's movie at this time, the fact that those messages are said and acted on within the story.

I thought it worked.

I thought it was good, and I wish they had kissed. Yeah, And so I'm gonna give Yeah two and a half, two or three, depending on which version of it we're talking about.

I'm gonna give one to dafh.

These suitcases I'm gonna give only I'm not giving mine to people a Dafty suitcases at the airport. I'm giving one to Scooby's Grandma Drag and I'm giving the half to.

The animatronics inside of Mister Bean.

Wonderful.

And there you go, you sickos, the hundreds and hundreds of people that said no, no, we want them to cover Scooby Doo, Well guess what we did.

And we had a great time.

I hope you're happy, had a blast.

I had arrest with you raitlan Verante.

Wow.

And just a reminder, if you want to, you know, force us to do things that are ultimately fun for us, you can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon right now five dollars a month to listen to two additional bonus episodes with just Caitlin and me every single month on a theme that I would say at least every other month. We give the Matreon community a chance to choose either what the theme is or we come up with the

We have fun over there, and if you like the vibe of.

Today's episode, that's kind of what the vibe is like over on the Matreon so check it out.

So true, and that's at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast.

You can go to the rectal Cast.

Don't go, we don't We can't vouch for whatever is that pat patreon dot com slash the rectal Cast.

But spin off podcast. No okay fine, so yes Patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. You can also go to te public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast for all of your merchandising needs, which are designed by Jamie Loftus. Sorry Raimi Rough.

Yeah, tis the season to get your just to show where you stand on the political spectrum and get merch.

That says I think beatles juice comes wet.

Scabs and or dry scabs, and yeah, people love to wear the merchant public.

Just kidding.

I think the entirety of like it is, if you want a shirt to wear only inside your house, you gotta get the scabs merch. Anyways, we love you so much we're yanking the mask off your face at being like, wait, you're just you're just some guy?

What the fuck?

Yeah? And I would have gotten no way with it if it weren't for you middling podcasters.

Exactly whatever, exactly, And I think we really stuck the

Landing and we're gonna bye, goodbye,