Saved! with with Ellie Brigida and Leesa Charlotte

to like, I switched her rep. We will talk about because I have a whole I'm like, I think so right, because therapy, she's I mean, she's surprisingly versatile. She plays Christian angels and Christian devils. So that's range. We have to go over the evolution of Mantimore, evolution and devolution. Okay, anyway, welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante, my Jamie Loftus. I couldn't think of a fun intro. I wanted to sing the song from a Walk to Remember?

Do you remember the words? I don't know the song to Remember from a Walker? Because so yeah, my head back down and I lift my hand and pray yes. And she's like singing this at school and you're like, oh my God, this girl would be toast if this were real life. And that's the magic of Mandy Moore. This is our saved episode. This is not our walk to Remember episode. But I'm sure that's that's imminent. It's coming. It's just walking. It's walking, not running in it's walking.

It's slowly mosy ing its way into the Bectel cast catalog. But today what is already he is saved. Exclamation point. Yes, I love gratuitous punctuation in a movie, only if it's an exclamation point. I don't like like this year when it was like Emma period, I'm like, let's skip that. I loved the movie, but I didn't need the punctuation. I didn't realize that the title that movie came with a period. Yeah, it's it's not it's not alas Emma,

it's as emma sentence. And I just don't think that's necessary. My favorite unnecessary exclamation point is, of course, the one included in the title of Mother exclamation point the Darren Aronowsky. I like the comma in Titania, but you you just need it? Well, sure, that's just that's necessary. Well are you leaving out the comma? And I Frankenstein, Jamie, what you like? What about that one? That's another iconic movie, Comma, you gotta rate the best movie. Punctuation I like, I

like the exclamation point. I like exclamation point movies. Yeah, I'm trying to think of other ones. But before we get too far down this rabbit holes, introduce our guests. Um oh wait, wait, first, Oh my gosh, I'm so out of whack exclamation point because I we spent too much time talking. There's a lot of Okay, first, we have to talk about what this show is and yeah, okay, so this is the Bechtel Cast. We talk about movies using an intersectional feminist lens. We use the Bechtel test

just as a way to jump start a conversation. And that, of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alson Bechtel that requires two people of any marginalized gender have to have names, they must speak to each other, and it has to be about something other than a man, and that conversation has to last at least two lines of dialogue by our standards. So that's our rendition of

the test. There's also there's a question mark. There's sometimes movies will be a question like who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? And then I think the movie with the most punctuation is The Chronicles of Narnia, Colan, the Lion, Comma, The Witch, com and Controversial and The Wardrobe. So that's basically what we talked about on the show, the punctuation in titles of movies. It's a movie grammar podcast. Okay, Well that that gives us something to think about, you know, the punctuation.

It does make you think, oh brother, where art thou? Oh yeah, oh brother, Comma, where art thou? Question? Airplane? Exclamation point? Exclamation point. This is just the rest of the episode. Sorry, Sorry, Ellie and lisare to jump in with your favorite movie. Sorry. I was like, I was like, do I have to wait? I was It's hard. It was for me to not sing the song from what I was waiting for them to introduce me. I'm gonna be a good podcast guest liked it. Ellie. We'll do

a TikTok later. It'll be fine. We'll do a full cover and you it'll be great because you're like a legit singer. You are a trained Jamie kind of bitchy to lead the podcast, with but good. We both thought yea, honestly you your rendition was gorgeous, beautiful. I thought you were a trained singer, so absolutely, you know I'm not a training ball. I mean, as Caitlin said, for some reason, I'm not a trained singer. But okay, well you know what, I'm the Mandy Moore of this episode. I'm the bitchy,

mean girl. Okay, you're being a real Hilary Faye so rude full of christ love. Do you sing on Do you sing on TikTok? Ellie? Yes? I do? Oh yeah, I'd read that. Yeah, if you want to check out my TikTok, I actually do like vocal lessons on my TikTok, So yeah, teach people how to riff. So if you want to learn how to riff, I love it, just check it out. Yeah hell yeah, I've learned a lot from your Instagram as well, So yes, I put I basically just take my TikTok and put it on Instagram.

But yes, okay, well let me let us introduce you properly. So our guests today are co hosts of Sweet Bitter, a new podcast about Sappho, who is the first known woman in European literary tradition and also where the word lesbian comes from. It's Ellie Bridgida and Lisa Charlotte. Hello, Lli, we're officially here. Everything I said before it doesn't matter. Thank you so much for having us, of course, And Ellie, welcome back. You were one of two guests on our

episode about debs more punctuation, so so much punctuation. That's yeah, that's like a heavy four four periods after every letter. It is a joy to be back. Oh wait, we're back. Exclamation point a dinosaur story? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's one too. Anyway. Uh, the informant you're in cycling encyclopedic knowledge of punctuation movies is so impressive. I have a listical in front of me. I thought, this is from your head. Yeah. I was like, there's to say

another bitchy comment. There's no way Jamie's just pulling these, just being a mega bitch. I uh, mastering Commander, what if I mean that implies that I've seen all these movies. I'm like, I gun to my head, could not tell you who's in? Is Matt Damon the informant? I believe so question. I have no idea, Birds of Prey, Colon and a fantabulous emancipation of one Harleyan there. It's surprising there's only one piece of punctuation in that very long title.

It's so long, so many words. No exclamation. Isn't when Harry met Sally? That's like dot dot dot right? Really I don't know. I'm pretty sure is that mean? Okay, let's fact check? Yes, yes, really, yeah, when Harry met Sally ellipses No kidding. I never knew that. It's because it shouldn't be like that. Yeah, unnecessary, that don't need it? But what can you do? And Saved you need it? Saved it's necessary. So let's talk about Saved. Um, what

is your relationship your history with the movie? Elie? Why don't we start with you? So this is I've seen this movie a very very long time ago, and I barely remembered it, to be honest, I was like, I know it's hilarious, but I can't really remember it. And then Lisa and I did a rewatch where we watched it and basically, like live, we're live texting each other, and as an adult watching this film, I saw so much more than I ever remembered, so it was great. Yeah,

I could appreciate the satire a bit more. I think, of course, what about you, Lisa. Um. I think this came out in my last year of high school and I loved it. My my dad used to rent videos and we used to get like the preview movies, you know, ahead of time on like VHS. So cool. Yeah, I know, and be of everybody. Um and so I was a massive fan. I really loved jenem Alone from Life as a House of All Things. I don't know why I love that movie as a teenager, but I really did.

And I was into Hayden Christensen and I have to live with that, you know, we were all there. There was a time. Jennem Alone has very like chris In Stewart before Christin Stewart was Christin Stewart energy for me? How is she not gay? I just I keep looking it up to see if she's gay, because it feels like she's gay. Is she not? No, she's not gay. She's had a lot of lesbian love scenes. Apparently she's really gay. Energy. I keep I keep checking. Wait, I'm

looking it up because I had to. It says she's bisexual online. Oh yes, BiCon and she also was raised by two moms. Amazing, So that's why you just feel it coming off of her. Absolutely, she was raised by two moms and then she was also what is that term, m she she was also emancipated, emancipated from her two moms. Oh, I didn't know any of this backstory her her life. I had never looked up general Alon's life story before researching for this episode, if you can believe it, And

she's had a very interesting life. She's like she's been through a lot and she's out on the other side starring in indie movies. I think good for her. Caitlin, what's your history was saved? My history was saved? Is I'd seen it? I think twice before this, once in college, must have been not long after it came out. I think I was like a freshman or sophomore, So I think I saw it around the time it came out, and then I think I just caught it again at

some point a few years later. I enjoyed rewatching it. I'm excited to talk about it, and uh, yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with it? I think, like Elliot, I hadn't seen it in a really long time, but I I've saw it a couple of times in like middle school and high school, at like sleepovers and with friends and stuff. Um, I feel like it was a good sleepover movie. And I really liked Mandy Moore, so I would see her entire uvra, whether it's music, whether it's movies.

I was engaging with the whole Mandy Moore cannon at this time, so I definitely thought it. I don't remember. I think that this was for I didn't grow up with Home Alone. I don't even know why, but I remember that this was the first movie I saw Macaulay Culkin and everyone was like, oh my god, Kevin, and I was like, who's Kevin? And then my friends laughed as we all laugh now bringing back back memory. So

here my friends are again, a million years later, still laughing. Um. But yeah, no, I hadn't seen it in at least ten years. I feel like a lot of it holds up. I think that what's most interesting for me is what this filmmaker has done since, because I feel like his work has since gotten quite bad. Where this movie, I mean, there's parts of it that are very steeped in their time, but I I generally liked it. Well, should I recap it and then we'll go from there. Yeah? Do it? Wait?

Did you who found the fun nepotism in this movie? I did? Yes. Susan Surrandon's daughter is Eva A Moor and that is who plays Cassandra Edelstein. Wow. Yeah. And then like once you know it and you see her again, like I see it. That is she looks like Susan Surandon very much, absolutely floored. And Jenna Malone played I think Susan Surrandon's stepdaughter and step mom. Oh I saw step mom a lot because my crush was in it. Mandy Moore again anymore, Many Moore was one of my crushes.

This was Liam Aiken. I don't even know who that is who. He played the boy in a series of Unfortunate events deep cut problem um. Anyways, there's all sorts of weird connection. I thought that that was fun nepotism, and she was good, so I didn't even care. She's one of the best parts of the whole movie. Absolutely, she's incredible. Oh right, So the story of Staved, we meet Mary. That's Gennle Malone. She comes from a devout,

born again Christian family. Her mother is Lillian played by Mary Louise Parker, who I think, isn't that another crush of yours? Jamie, isn't she a crush of everybody's? Yes, she's so thirsty in this movie. She is really This is like an interesting moment for Mary Louise Parker where she I just want all of her tank tops and I want to give her a little kiss. She's also

coloring her head the whole film. Yes, it's very funny, so many different and I feel like my mom had each and every one of those hairstyles at one point. Mine is the blonde, but like all the different like layering's like moms were layering into tell you for they couldn't be stopped. It's true. Okay. So Mary is about to be a senior at a Christian high school. Everything seems great for Mary until her Christian boyfriend Dean tells her that he thinks that he is gay, and she

like reacts. She bumps her head, and then she sees a vision of Jesus telling her that she needs to save Dean, which falls into something we talked about yesterday Caitlin, which was the coming of age movie about a young woman must always feature her underwater, having some sort of realization about the fragility of her own life, specifically in a swimming pool. Yes, in a swimming pool, and this

one cuts right to the Jays. I'm like, okay, this is a coming of age movie confirmed from the first scene. So as she's like underwater, she sees this vision of Jesus and she thinks the way that she's going to be able to save Dean is to have hetero sex with him, which they do and she thinks it worked, and obviously it doesn't, uh, And then she goes about

her life as if everything is fine. She heads to school with her friends, the fellow you know her her fellow Christian Jewels, who are Hillary Faye which is Mandy Moore and Veronica played by Elizabeth Tye. And then we also meet Hillary Faye's brother Roland and that's McAuley culkin. But Dean, her boyfriend, doesn't join them at school because his parents found out found like a gay porn mag in his room and he gets sent to Mercy House, which is basically like a like gay conversion therapy place.

Not always works so well. I know. Also Mercy House, I feel like it's like a catch all. They're basically like, if your kid is doing anything bad, to send them to mercy House. Yeah, they mentioned like drugs, alcohol, use teen pregnancy stuff, but yeah, I think the one they use is de gayification. Yes, it always works, especially when you put gay people together to make them not get in the same bedroom and have them bunk together. It always works, turns them immediately straight. Jk um. So Mary

is disappointed by this. They get to school and we also meet Castandra Edelstein, and she is the only Jewish student at this Christian school. She smokes, she's punk rock, she doesn't follow the rules, she misbehaves, she's not like the other girl. She's not like the Christians because she's not a Christian because she's Jewish. Therefore, like it's like it's honestly, so many of them, it's all satire, but so many of the things in this this movie you

just want to like hit your head. Yeah, it's like, oh God, she's Jewish, therefore she smokes, Therefore she's therefore a cigarette. Yeah, you're just like right. There's also this new kid at school, Patrick played by Patrick Fuget, and he is the son of the new principal pastor skip and Mary is like, oh, who's that Patrick Fuguet. Did anyone in the middle of the movie be like, oh, almost famous. Yes, it took just like wait, who hoo hoo hoo who it's literally the same haircut. I was like,

there was no excuse for me not figuring that out. Yeah, I had the same experience. So but Mary takes an interest in him, and he takes an interest in Mary. Um, I know. And then one day Mary finds out that she is gregnant with a little Greg with a little Greg. Oh no stand out line. Please let it be cancer. How horrible. She would rather have cancer than be pregnant

because of Christianity, because Christianity her. That was a very funny moment because she's watching this lifetime movie about this woman who thinks she's pregnant, but it turns out she has cancer and then um, and then Mary is just like, please let it be cancer, Please let it be cancer. Yes. Valerie Bertonelli in that movie, right, we see Valerie Burtonelli

many times recurring character. She's a looming presence. Yes. Um okay. So, so Mary has found out that she is gregnant with a Greg and around this time Hillary Faye has outed Dean to the school under the pretense of like, well, we have to pray for him kind of thing, and all of this causes Mary to start to question her faith. Um. It's also around this time that Patrick asks Mary out on a date. She declines, and then Cassandra and Roland

start dating. And then Cassandra catches on to Mary being pregnant, and she's like, you know what, I'm going to help you. She takes her shopping for clothes that will help her conceal her gregnancy and makes Hillary Faye pay for it. Yes, it's great, I do love how like it turns everything on its head of okay, like the Hillary Faye, this perfect Christian is actually a really mean person who outs people,

who does all these things. And the one person at school who's supposed to be the bad girl is the one who's helping. Yeah, yeah, who's helping this girl who needs help? Like she's actually a good person. Yes, iconic, I love Cassandra. Yeah, so they become friends along in Roland there, it's like a nice little trio. And meanwhile, Hillary Faye is horrified by all of this. She doesn't know that Mary is gregnant yet, but she's still trying to perform exorcisms on her and constantly trying to save

her and save Cassandra. So Cassandra, annoyed by this, spreads this old, unflattering photo of Hillary Faye around the school, which she is mortified by. So Hillary Faye, to retaliate, vandalizes the school and frames it on Cassandra and Roland and Mary by planting the spray paint cans in their lockers. And then when Mary's locker gets searched, they also find the ultrasound of her baby Greg and then everyone, so

everyone finds out that she's pregnant so to list. So then Cassandra and I think also Mary gets expelled or maybe just Cassandra gets expelled, but they're all they're all punished and they're not allowed to go to prom. But Mary is like kicked out of the group. Yeah, And then like Pastor Skip like wants her to go to Mercy House. And then like Mary Louise Parker's like having a whole thing where she's like should I send her? Should I not? That ultimatum? How dare you right? Well?

Also Pastor Skip and Mary Louise Parker, I'm like I don't know her actual name. I think her name is Lillian. Lillian we're dating before that, right, and even though Pastor Skip has a wife, right right, talk about a couple, I couldn't be rooting for less. Yes, I'm rooting for Lillian like to be her own independent woman. I want how to be laid is what I want. Yeah, and not by Pastor Skip. I want her to be like a not shitty pain. Aren't There's there's a lot of

she needs some support. Yeah, I'm like you. She just fully was like, oh my daughter is gregnant. Didn't notice? Notice? Better sent her away. I'm like, excellent parent. So our friends are not allowed to go to prom, but they decided to go anyway because they figure out that it was Hilary Faye who bought the spray paint. So Cassandra and Roland as a couple, and then Mary and her day Patrick all go to prom, as do some kids from Mercy House, including Dean. So at prom, Pastor Skip

is like, you, you can't be here. God is judging you. He doesn't like what you're doing with your lives. And then Mary and Patrick are like Pastor Skip, you need to loosen up, dude, Like your standards are too high. God made us all different and that's okay. Meanwhile, and this is the most fun part of the movie if you ask me, Hilary Faye is freaking out, and then she drives her van into the big like Jesus statue

thing outside the school. Then Mary starts to go into labor cut to the hospital she's given birth, and then in her voice over at the end, she's like, Yeah, I probably misinterpreted God's message to me about saving Dean, but I do think there is a God or something out there or something inside. I can feel it, and that is the story beautiful. So let's take a quick break and then come right back to discuss where to begin with Saved. There's so much interesting steph in here.

I feel like there I was looking in too, like just religious satire in general, because I feel like there's definitely not a lot of like teen like religious satire directed at teenagers specifically, um and then it kind of

happens more on TV than in movies. And then I went to the religious satire Wikipedia page and also found that this is kind of neither here nor there, except to mention that the religious satire category is just overwhelmed with white guys just so, like half of the entries are like and then Trey Parker and Matt Stone did this, and everyone look like what like, so, um, you know, there's definitely room for other people in this in the religious satire genres. If you're listening and you're not a

white guy, you know, think about it. Not surprising that that's the case on the Wikipedia page, especially because, like watching this movie, one of the biggest things was there for sure could be more diversity. It's an entirely white cast obviously, like some of the students in the background

parts are people of color, but they don't have names. Well, and there's um Veronica, like Veronica, and there's Veronica, yes, and she almost nothing about I mean, unfortunately, I feel like we know a little bit more about her than we would about like some non white characters, which is set the bar is on the floor, especially if we're talking about two thousand four, because we know a little

bit about her background. But like she you could cut her out of the script in a second and nothing, but nothing would change and everything we know about her you could say in a sentence, which the movie also says in a sentence it's like she was adopted from Vietnam by parents who were there doing missionary work. The like that's it, that's it, that's it. Yeah, Well that kind of relates to another sort of I guess preliminary note about this movie, which is it is unlike a

lot of teen movies which are not religious satires. There's an interesting intersection here with it being a teen comedy slash like religious satire, which I enjoyed that about the movie. Yeah, but it's also it does fall into a lot of other kind of teen movie tropes. Still. For example, you've got the mean girl who's mean, You've got a hetero teen romance being a major subplot. You've got the movie ending in prom and Prom being like where the climactic

sequence takes place. You've got well, at the point where once they were at prom, I'm like, well, if we're doing this trope, she better she might as well have the baby at prom. And then thankfully she goes into labor at prom, because I'm like, if you're really going to bring a very pregnant teen the prom, she better go into labor. Like we've got why subvert that? Yeah, the only thing that's missing is like everyone bands together and votes her prom queen. But that's the only thing,

that's the only thing that's right. Justice Mary. Yeah, why didn't she get pro queen. Also, in addition to it being a very white cast, it's also another thing that we see in a lot of teen movies is they're

all middle to upper middle class. Yeah, well they're at like a private school to write like, yeah, I mean yeah, if it's a it's a religious school, then yes, yeah, it's it is fully troped out with a lot of that, like even that, and even it's weird because there are like some subversions inside of this movie, but there's like subversions that still exist inside of the troupe, like it

appeares to the trope. But it also for example, there's a clothes trying on montage, but it's not so that the teen girl can look really cute or like find the cutest prom dress. It's so she can find clothes that we feel, yeah, I like or the I mean this was I mean, I'm curious as to what everybody thinks. This was like a romance subplot that I didn't think

overwhelmed everything else. And I didn't hate it. I didn't like dislike Patrick Wheeler on like Patrick's skateboard or what I was, like Patrick's skateboard, Um, Like I thought Patrick's skateboard was at least like a pretty respectful sweetheart towards Jenna Malone. And that's you know, in a two thousand and fourteen movie, you never know how the insert head or real love interest is going to behave, And I was like, well, Patrick is at least a sweetheart, and

he's like, he is unproblematic. King. My favorite is when he um, he falls over and his friend handing the skateboard and he's like, he's like he's still really cool about it, yeah, and like shout out to his friend for helping in the friend is a sweetie exactly. Yeah, he's never really he's never displaying any like of that kind of machiesemo toxic masculinity that a lot of teen

boys are like have on constant display. And even I really enjoyed that he like challenges his dad at the end, and it's constantly just kind of challenging the institution of Christianity and and like still identifying as Christian, but like, but he doesn't judge, He doesn't like judge Mary for her pregnancy when she tells him to like back off and she's not interested, he does back off, Yes, exactly.

He respects her boundaries, He is nice to her, he treats her well, which all of these things should just be standard behavior. But considering that, like so many teen movies show teen boys being so horrendously cruel and awful to teen girls, like I always think of, I think my like go to example for like how horrible a boy can be to a girl in a teen movie is Heath Ledger to Julia Stiles in Ten Things I Hate About You, which is like liket that, But I did.

I generally found Patrick to be a nice boy who and I for that reason I didn't mind that love story because he treats her well. Yeah, I mean I do think you could probably take him out of the baby. But I also, like it did seem like Mary wanted to be with someone who she was genuinely into, and like I was sweet and respectful to her. So I'm like, all right, you know what, Patrick, sweetie, date Patrick. He's

gonna raise He's gonna help you raise your child. They're gonna be like this cute little like because Dean also, like after was like I want to be in the in the kid's life, and it's like the four of them is this cute little like, yeah, I have hope for the future of like that four. So I want to co parenting. That baby has four parents because Dean's boyfriend also is like, I'm here to He's in the picture at the end. He like, if you're posing for

the picture, you're one of the parents that parenting. Yeah, that kid has five parents. Um, it's going to be just fine. Little greg who is um girl? I think a girl? Yeah, Gregina, but exactly um so, I mean, yeah, they at very least even the stuff that fell into tropes wasn't so outrageously like the worst of the trope the same kind of the same. I mean, Hillary Fay,

there's a lot there in terms of her arc. I did at least appreciate that by the end she got some kind of come upance and it was clear that she was not the world's worst person in a way that sometimes I mean, if we're talking just in strictly category, Mandy Moore villains at the end of Princess Diaries, gonna

you know, who knows she's burning in hell? Maybe like we don't really know she doesn't necessarily alert, like she doesn't get any sort of redemption of like, oh well, this is where she was coming from, Like and Hillary Faye. For all the problematic parts of her story that we'll get to at least at the end, I feel like she has like a humbling moment. She has to admit that she's wrong, and she like accepts the help um people who don't need to be nice to her but

are aka her brethren. Condra. Yeah, I mean I feel like she also has the punishment of that hair. So the hair is so bad. Most of my comments to Ali throughout the which is like, I just can't It's just is it a wig? It has to be. I cannot imagine Mandy Moore having that hair in real life. It was two thousand and four. She might have it, couldn't. I don't know. I'm on the fence she many more. I just I don't. I'm first of all, I've had a crush seven. So there's that. I used to have

a poster of her. I think I've said this to Eu Caitland before. I had used to have a poster of Mandy Moore on my wall when I was like in elementary school, that I thought was like looking at me while I was asleep. Oh my gosh, So Mandy Moore was your guardian angel. Well, I got scared of it and I took it down, or or the ghost hunting her house either or she was looking at me too hard and I had to take it down. But

it was a big fan. Did I tell you that I met her and she did a show at NERD Molt Like, yeah, she was really nice and she did it confirmed she's amazing. Oh my god, she seems amazing. She I like, I mean, and and this is like a very interesting time in her career where she was singing like bubble gum pop. She was like in the Britney Spears is an available position kind of pop wise, but then she started. Then she did a Walk to Remember iconic Christian movie Canon where she played a character

named Jamie. And then she did Princess Diaries where she established that she knows how the mata rozzo and that she's a bully, and then she pays up on that again and saved. She plays a bully and a Christian really well. And I feel like I wonder if the director Brian Danilely was like I've seen her as a Christian. I've seen her as a bully. What if let's put them together, sim bully mash up. We know she can do both. Yes, she's so versatile. So it was right

after Princess Diaries that she did Saved. In the timeline, it was a couple of years after because Princess Diris is OH one, this is OH four. I don't know what she was doing in between them. Possibly more incredible pop music. I'm sure more pop mus to get it, because her name is Mandy Moore. Yes, she I don't know what she was doing. Oh, she was in a movie. Oh I did see this movie. She was in two

movies that I saw. Yikes. Uh. So she did Princess Diaries, then to Remember So sorry, she did Bully, then Christian. Then she did something called How to Deal, which I saw but I don't remember what it was, and then Chasing Liberty which she played the first Daughter, unlike First Daughter, which came out the same year, and that was Katie Holmes. And then she did Saved. A wild couple of years for Mandy and her part was was supposed to originally

be played by Anne Hathaway. Saved. It's just like The Princess Diaries. Anne Hathaway was going to be Hilary Fay. Yeah, yeah, until she dropped out to do possibly Ellen Chant that. I couldn't figure out what she dropped out to do. Honestly, I'm so happy that that happened. Sorry, Anne, but me, Andy's just perfect in this It's perfect, and Anne has ranged as well. But I'm happy that Mandy Moore is in that disrespect to Anne, but Mandy, Yeah, we wouldn't

have the Mandy Moore. God only knows. Which is just perfect? Right? Is that the ending credits? It's the beginning then it's like, this is a Mandy Moore film. We just want to let you know. When we were watching it, I was like, because it's just her voice and you don't see anyone. I was and I literally was like voice of an angel. That's many Moore. I knew it was her. She was

well in the original posters for this movie. She is like in the center, even though that doesn't even make sense for the movie, like it was built like Mandy. I probably because she was still a pop star and she was the most famous person at that point. She's always in the center of every movie. She's in yeah, right,

that's true. Yeah, but speaking to the Hillary fake character, that does bring me to a plot point that I forgot about ages very poorly and has a very strange place in the Brian Daniele film career Cannon, which is the extremely played for laughs fat phobic plot points slash prank. This sucks. So this comes up, and again it's so frustrating because it could so easily have been anything else or not even happened, and the movie would be no different.

But they essentially have this plot point where Roland mcaulay culkins character tells Cassandra and Mary, oh well, she as a like as a young teen, was fat and she was sent to fat camp and she doesn't want anybody to know that. They do a big joke about it, and then they prank her. Our heroes pull a very fat phobic prank, and we're supposed to be like, woohoo, right, this across the board doesn't work, superdated and embarrassing to

watch now. It also plays out in Brian Danely's film Cannon, because he goes on to direct a bunch of episodes of Insatiable that, like famously fat phobic um Netflix series starring Debbie Ryan. So this is like a he has a very checkered film. Like a lot of the projects he's worked on in various ways, um usually as a director, sometimes as a producer are problematique. They're just that whole part just like made me feel so itchy. It's gross. It's gross. Yeah, it's just really really bad, and I

agree ages horribly truly. It reminds me a lot of I think the closest like pop culture touch point to that is like a joke from Friends that went the entire series that was the exact same joke about Courtney Cox about Monica, and it's the exact same joke and it played out the exact same way every time that like, oh, this like extremely skinny woman used to not be how embarrassing, let's laugh at her, and with the assumption that the audience is laughing with us because we're monsters and it's

two thousand four. Yeah. So yeah. Also some of their language choices as well. Yeah I'm not I don't remember where it was, but they said the R word a couple of times in the first scene, and then I think at least once later on as well. There's definitely some some language that gets used. It's obviously there's like homophobic slayers as well, Like there's a lot of the time.

And this is not in defense of the language, but I think that that will get used in this movie movie to kind of let you let the audience know which characters we're supposed to be rooting for and not, because it's usually Hilary Faye and her posse who is saying a lot of problematic stuff, whether it's homophobic, whether it's ablest, and that's to let the audience know, oh, we don't like her, she's mean, she's bad, which again

makes the fat phobic plot point. So yeah, frustrating because the heroes do it and we're supposed to be like ya, like Jena Malone and Susan Sarandon's daughter, like yeah, two thousand four. And I do want to talk about the disability aspect of the film because we have Roland who is a disabled character. He uses a wheelchair, so we have visibility of disability, but as we've seen in a lot of media throughout the years, characters played by a

non disabled actor. And I found a few quotes from a review of the film from Disability Studies Quarterly by Beth Holler that focuses on disability representation in this movie. Let's see so here we go quote. This independent film from two thousand four does a good job of upending the usual disability stereotypes in film. Although it uses a non disabled actor for the role of wheelchair user Roland Macaulay Culkin in a well acted performance, it shows the

character as an average teenager. Another quote. Roland is established early as a sarcastic cynic, but not in the vein of a bitter disabled person, because he doesn't buy into the extreme version of Christianity practiced by his sister and others at the high school. So part of this review is um commending the film for making Rowland and average teenager who just happens to be in a wheelchair, not just an average teenager, not like the other boy. Also

like a cool teenager. I would say, like, he's actually pretty awesome. Yeah, that was my other my two crushes in this movie Mandy Moore because of course legally had to. But then the like Roland's character because he's a cool bad boy. He's like, I don't know, I feel like in two thousand four year like atheism, what like sexy Yeah, I also don't like going to youth group. Uh. And

then just a couple more quotes from this review. Um, the Roland Cassandra relationship is a step forward in disability imagery. He is never pathetic or pitiful, and although she is a rebel, Cassandra makes it clear she is not with him as a form of rebellion. When Mary asks her if it bothers her that Roland can't walk, Cassandra explains,

he gets me, and I get him. The Roland Cassandra relationship shows a deep connection that is emotional and physical, which is rarely seen with disabled characters in film and television. McAuley Culkin plays Roland well, handling the wheelchair with finesse and giving the character a growing sense of self as

he settles into a romantic relationship and a supportive friend relationship. Unquote. So, Um, this review was written in two thousand four, so it is the two thousand five I think, so it's at least fifteen years old. Um, I'd be interested to see a more contemporary perspective on this film. So, for any of our listeners who use a wheelchair, how do you feel the representation of um, this physical disability was in

this film and be interested to know. But as far as I could tell, like the this review said, I appreciated that Roland is like he's given a romantic storyline, the best one, the best one, yes, so the one I'm like rooting for the most. This is again something that you rarely see in popular media. So it's his story isn't about being in a wheelchair like he is in one exactly, like a struggle he's overcoming or whatever.

It's just a human person. Definitely, I and I mean I certainly I think that, like I mean, I think it's kind of a generally held the opinion that more disabled actors should be playing these parts. Definitely in context in two thousand and four, being that they did not cast a disabled actor, I feel like Macaulay Culkin did a good job and they I mean, again, I'm interested in in disabled perspectives on this, but it seems like he did his homework by like from all the research

I did, and like what his process was. And this was kind of like the beginning of a comeback for him as well, because it look like a ten year break from acting. I think this was like one of his first big film roles. As like an adults and he's great potty monster. Was that around the time it was I think of the year before this. Yeah, Mcaulay Culkin, I love so great. Yes, I mean I do think he did a great job with the role. And that that love story with Cassandra Rocks, I know, it's so sweet.

Actuality is right because they have this nice um moment towards the end where he's saying, like he's talking about like him trying to figure out, oh, are we together because like I was depending on you, and no, that's not it and that's not what I want. I'm with you because I like you and we get each other, and she's like I want I like you too, I want you to and it's like this this nic and she and I like that. It's like a little inversion but like she has to like go after him, which

almost which I feel like it's usually the opposite. And it's so I forgot how much I was like affected by their like love story when I was like junior high. But it's so nice and then prom outfits just yeah, they're matching. They're sweet and there and and I like because I mean generally I like Cassandra's character a lot too. It's like I it is, I don't know. I'm like, I'm not Christian. I didn't grow up particularly religious at all. I like went to church, but I didn't I a

lot of this. The hyper Christian plot poise in this movie didn't super hit for me because I wasn't really entrenched in anything other than um Mandy Moore and pictures of her on Google Images. But it was I mean Cassandra's character. I like Cassandra's character a lot because she's introduced as like a stock rebel character that ends up having like all of this depth and a lot more and like part of what ends up making her not like the other girls is that, like she has more

compassion than most of the people at the school. And I really liked where it was like Mary for so much of the movie seemed to have like all these had a number of women in her life, but no one who she was really like connecting with, And and then that person ends up being Cassandra, and it's so nice to watch their friendship kind of like develop. When Cassandra it seems like Cassandra is about to bully her, which is what Mary's used to, but then she hugs

her and then I cry. Well, going back a little bit to the religious point of it, I personally like, I went to a Catholic school when I was younger, but I'm from Boston, and I feel like Catholic schools in Boston are like Catholic schools in Boston, but they're not like this school. Like, if that makes sense at

least mine, I don't know. It's not exactly the same. However, in college, my roommate when she got to college was not very religious, and she wasn't very religious when she got to college because she was raised super super conservative religious in in Raleigh in North Carolina, went to a Baptist school. Her brother was gay. He came out in high school and they expelled him. And this was in twenty so like the stuff that they're talking about it it's like from two thousand four. But it also like

is people's lived experience. And I think that's what's so great about the film, and that they're showing you this is a real lived experience and like, let's make fun of it because it's absolutely ridiculous that this is happening. And at the end, let's like make sure we're pushing home the message that God made everyone different and that's beautiful, but it is also still like it hits you different

when you know that this is stuff that still happens. Yeah, I read that the director and co writer Brian Dannally based everything that happens in the film off of things he either witnessed while attending a I think he went to a Baptist high school or had heard other people's experiences, so he didn't like make anything up. This was all just like this was like stuff that he saw or

stuff that that other people had seen. And also he's a queer director who like came out and got disowned by his parents and like went through and then was later accepted by his parents. And it was I I had never watched this movie with that context. I was like when I was in high school, I wasn't like who directed this? I would just like look at all

the pretty people. Um, But yeah, watching it where it's like, I mean, I would guess I I don't have like a specific quote for him, but I would guess that a lot of like Dean's character is like him relaying some of his own experience or like cathartic re revisiting it where he came out in high school in a very religious family and was disowned and then like went

on to have this very successful career leader. So I was like, oh, I viewed Dean in a in a I mean, I always liked Dean because what's not to like. But it was cool to know that that's kind of like a director, like pulling from his direct experience too. That was cool. One thing I was hoping for more of in the movie was like us cutting back to Dean at mercy House and like seeing what he was going through there. I would have liked to see more of that. I guess that's what the movie. But I'm

a Cheerleader is for. So if you're like, I want to see more of that, like, WA's that movie? I was getting big But I'm a cheerleader vibes from mercy House in general. But I love what we got that just he plays it so well, like the Himich so cute. And then there I forgot. I don't know why, but I forgot that they come to the prom at the end, and that great. Like I don't know any movie that comes out in the early two thousand's, You're like, this

could go really badly at any second. But then it doesn't, and it goes like beautifully and you're like yeah, Dean, and Dean is like, oh, you're pregnant. Wow, we're so fertile, or like whatever. He I'm a daddy, Like I'm so happy. Yeah, and then everyone and then they hug and you're like, oh, this is so nice. I love that this This kid has so many parents, it's overwhelmed. And then old of these, like seventeen year old is just ready for it. Yeah,

seen year olds are like, let's be parents, Let's do this. Yeah, let me raise another manse child. This is gonna go great. Like mcaulay culkin and Susan Surrandon's daughter, They're like, we had nothing to do with any of this, and yet we were also the parents. Are they're the godparents? Maybe yes? Maybe? Oh my gosh. Let's take another a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion and we're back.

We haven't talked that much about Mary, right, everything else, all the side plus, Yeah, I've not talked about Mary that much. But I love Mary. One thing I really appreciate about her is that she looks like a normal teenager, and I just think we don't get enough of that, like she's got acne, her hair is sometimes greasy, and I'm just like, yes, this is how teenagers are so refreshing.

It was really cool to see acne on screen, like remember that from watching it for the first time, because like when the way that they like and I wonder if this was like an intentional thing, but like the way that they covered up Jenna Malone's like chin acne was like the way that I would have, which was like with a concealer that was not my shade. I think it was an intentional choice, Yes, I hope, so

otherwise I'm like dragging the makeup department. But I would always like cover up my chen acte with like a shade that was like lighter than my shade, so it was almost like an arrow being like check out what's going on down here. That was something that struck me about eighth grade two that like they Kayla in that movie has visible acne and there's like no attempt to buy the production by the makeup department to cover it

up because guess what teens have acne? And something behind the scenes fact that I found that really just like warmed my heart was so gener alone and Mandy Moore are the same age, but they're coming from a pretty different place where like genem Alone at this time is like an indie darling and Mandy Moore is like this international pop star. So they're like same age but from

different world. And there was like this genlem Alone quote that was like I was really skeptical and I was like kind of frustrated that the cast a pop star in this movie. But then Maddy and are friends and she was so nice and she like asked me for tips on acting and was like trying to become a better actor and liked genlem alonees of work. I was like, that's so wholesome and may be so happy. I love that. So,

Hilary Fay in real life they're actually friends. They're actually friends, or they at least were for the one month this movie is shooting. Still sweet, maybe smile, but I mean, yeah, I like I like Mary as a character a lot.

I like her arc as well, where you know, she starts out not really questioning anything about kind of the religious institution that she was raised in, and then when a few things happened, like her boyfriend being disowned for being gay and her getting pregnant, she starts to question her faith, and not in a way she ultimately ends up not believing in her religion anymore, or not believing in God anymore or anything like that. It's more that she just becomes more of a critical thinker about it.

Because what I like about this movie, and even though, like I was raised as an atheist, I'm still an atheist. So I appreciate anything that is critical of organized religion because I think there's a fair amount to be critical of. But the message of this movie is not like, don't be a Christian. It's more just calling out the hypocrisy that sometimes coincides with some Christian people's behaviors and attitudes.

And I think this movie is very helpful in that way because it still gives people permission to believe whatever they want to believe. It just encourages people to be analytical about what they believe and to practice compassion over

judgment and things like that. And Like, as someone who was raised with like in Catholicism, with Christians, I agree that it is like when you're in that community, Like for for me, my community was always accepting, So it's like you can still have all of the positive things about Christianity, which is what Mary's trying to say, like if God tells us to love everyone, why don't we love Dean? And it's like more questioning, Okay, well, why are the people around me telling telling me these things?

And why is? Why are they why are these messages of love being distorted? And then it's like even if you don't believe in Christianity or you don't believe in a God, that's fine, but you can believe in loving

other people. That's universal. Yeah. I really appreciated that angle where it was like almost like I feel like in some movies and this isn't even really a criticism because I don't like dislike this choice, but sometimes it's like the the lead character is so headstrong and so unlike the other that you're like, it's almost like an intellectual Mary Sue situation where you're like, wait, how did they arrive at this conclusion? Like I agree, but I'm like old,

so how did they get there? At age you know, fifteen? Where it was kind of refreshing and cool to watch Mary challenge things in a very kind of like realistic way, and at the end, I mean like who knows, maybe you know by the time she's like twenty, she's completely

disavowed Christianity and she's not into it at all. But like, it felt all of her choices made sense to me more so than in a lot of teen movies, where it was just kind of clearly the writer making like, uh value statement about like this is how I feel people should act, So my teen lead is going to

act this way. Where it was like because I mean, because Brian Daniley is writing from his own experience, He's like, well, I feel like he does a pretty good job of putting himself in issues of like well, how would a girl who grew up so entrenched in these values, like what would be her process of working through this? And

it's like I really liked it. I thought it was really sweet and like had a weird amount of love for Christians, you know, right, Like most movies would not extend because you see, you see enough perspectives from different characters. Where you have a character like Hilary Faye who has taken her religious beliefs to the extreme, to the point where a lot of what she says and does is

very problematic. Then you have Mary who seems to identify as Christians the whole way through the movie, but her relationship with Christianity changes throughout the story because of you know, different things that happen. Then you have Dean, who also remains a Christian throughout the whole movie, despite different fellow Christians thinking that he he's living in sin for his sexuality. Then you have Roland, who probably was a Christian earlier

in his youth but then decided he wasn't anymore. And I don't know if he specifically identifies as atheist in the movie, but he says at one point I'm not a Christian. Yeah. Then you have Patrick, who is like the pastor's son, who again still identifies as Christian, but does more of like kind of the critical thinking that Mary comes to do towards the end. And Patrick to who like challenges like he challenges his dad, And he also said one of the like when I don't know.

One of the lens that really took me off guard on this viewing was like him talking to Jenna Malone and being like, well, I think my dad is wrong about how he like basically like he says, I think it's wrong how my dad views gay students like that's nice. Yeah, I think he says I don't think Dan's sick, yeah like or yeah, like, it's the people who are sending him there that have the problem, not him. And wait, what's I wrote that quote down because I liked it

a lot. Let me find it here. Oh yeah, Patrick says, and I started to root for Patrick definitively. He says, Mercy House doesn't exist for the people who get sent there. It exists more for the people who do the sending. And it's like, yeah, absolutely, Patrick, Yeah, Patrick, Jean Patrick. But I think that even if you're not religious, because I grew up in an atheist house, but I think that every child kind of goes on that journey with

their parents. I mean, like, my parents have pretty conservative values about a lot of things, and there is a lot of stuff that I said as a teenager or thought as a teenager that I just didn't know was any different. And I went on my own sort of journey of discovery with that as well. And I think even that's relatable in its own way. Definitely same. Can we talk about Mary Louise Parker and there's some crushes

in this Lee Is Kenny. I honestly totally forgot her entire plot in the ten years that I hadn't seen this movie. I do think that she is like a pretty exceptionally shitty parent and I was not rooting for her at all. And I also think Mary is way too nice and forgiving to her She is too Christian about it. She should have been like mad at her mom or I would have been mad at Mary Louise

Parker if she was my mom. Where it like she didn't notice that her daughter was pregnant, and on top of that, when she found out her daughter was pregnant, she punished her and made it about herself or like allowed her to be persuaded by Pastor's skip that like her daughter's pregnancy was somehow about her, and that she was going to punish her pregnant daughter because of something that she had done that she was not going to I was just like, I can't believe this movie made

me be mad at Mary Louise Parker, but yes, there it is. I also think, like I'm on the other side of it, I do think they were what they were trying to do, which I could understand, is like, this is a single mother. Did she get pregnant when she was young as well? Is that what we're inferring, but she was married. I don't know. I know that she was like widowed when her daughter was young, but I don't know if she was like if she had a baby young or what what that what the implication

was there? I'm not sure. Wait, Lisa, what were you gonna say? I just think she had her young and them was widowed. But either way, it seemed like she just was She's a woman who just could not handle her daughter, and then her daughter basically became her caretaker. She has to die her hair a lot. Yeah, no, but you can. I just think she she seems like she was very overwhelmed and just and then her daughter was more mature than her and basically started taking care

of her. And she's like, oh, this is how our relationship is great and never changed it, which is not like she should definitely change it. But that's definitely like where I saw it. Yeah, I don't think I saw it so problematic because my biological mother is a narcissist, So I was like, this is fine. It depends where your bar is. My bar is really loves. I think I got mad because I have a very narcissistic parent that I would just like, yeah, I wanted Mary to

like push against it more than she did. Ultimately, it's Mary Louise Parker, so it's fine, but I can understand. She does go like, this baby needs to be raised by a mother and a father, and it's like, you mean, two teenagers, do you really think they're going to be the best candidates to raise a child? Like what are you talking Because she's like contemplating sending her away to Mercy House, I guess to raise this baby with Dean And it's like, what that would be the worst possible idea?

What are you talking about? I was just mad at her. Well, she also like she definitely likes had complete blinders on with Pastor's Skip too, just like there's a man who's paying attention to me for like she was getting the day that's all bit matted. Yeah, Pastor Skip sucks. Also there's a whole part with Pastor's Skip, which everything in

this film is like exposing the hypocrisy. Right. You have Pastors Skip who is committing adultery according you know, like the Christian values, and he's the one who's like, oh, your daughter is needs to go here, when it's like just take a look at yourself, like no one should be judged in my like, it's like just yeah, so and I like that. I mean Patrick pushes up against him a little and it's like, mom wanted to divorce. You seem to want to not be with her. Why

are you doing this? And he's like, well, because Jesus Christ and so literally she'll live abroad for twenty years and they'll still be married and it will bang, Mary Louise Bacca, that'll be what's best for your son, Like what are you doing? But yeah, I think the Mary Louise Parker character is not like the way that she's

presented in the movie is not like bad writing. I think it's more just another indication of like, here's how sometimes people are hypocritical or they'll clin you know, they'll be like, I'm Christian, but then they don't they don't do the Christian thing, or they don't actually be there for their daughter when they need her, and you know, things like that. So I hope she steps it up

as a grandmother. Yes, I felt like there was an arc towards the end, maybe because yeah, she's the one who gets into the ambulance and then I love you daughter, and then in the hospital she's like, I'm a grandma. I think again, maybe I'm like bringing too much personal baggage to the table. But whenever, like a mother daughter like conflict is resolved by being like, you know what, I thought about it, and I don't regret having you. That is not a satisfactory resolution for me. I'm sorry.

Is that not love? I've come to understand that's love, and in fact that is seems to be like another bar is on the floor of like you know what, I actually don't regret that you are currently alive. You're just like thanks anything else for any other forgot that line. It's soap, that's so bad. That's how they're plot resolves. Or she's like, I know it. I made it seem like I wish you were never born, but actually I don't feel that way. I'm glad you were born. And

that happens kind of like not infrequently. I can't think of another example at the top of my head, but it was like it's like teen sometimes, like teen parent stuff, especially when there's like a young parent, it plays out that way quite frequently, like well I would have done this, this isn't this if you weren't born And they're like and then you know, five minutes later, girl like I'm glad you were born and then they hug like that

left track. You're like wait what But like, as someone who is a result of teen pregnancy, that is literally my life. So I like the representation. We're talking about representation here, exactly true. Does anyone have any other things they want to talk about? I want to talk a little bit about Tia. I feel like she's a character.

She's so great. We love Heather, Heather like underrated person or eye endorsed Bernie every time, married to a comedian like really no notes, But I like, I thought that was an interesting character because she we've seen this character before of like wanting to be in the popular group

and kind of doing whatever it takes. And she works like several jobs so that she can earn money to buy a car so she can like offer rides to the popular girls, and she just wants to fit in and have like but it's a case of she is also being mistreated by Hillary Faye because Hillary Fame mistreats everyone around her. Uh, and then she's the one to expose like, oh yes you did buy those spray paints. Redemption for Tia and then she picks up the the tr At the end, she's like, can I wear the

tiar and Hillary faces a great storyline. I love it. I think. Also one of my favorite lines in the movie is when Pasta Skiff is telling them they need to help their friends, and he's like, you've got to I don't remember what he says, something like you've got to go and be a warrior for the Lord. And she looks at him like dead pan serious and goes like, shoot her. It's just so well done and so good. Yes, amazing, Yeah, she's so good. How the Matterazzo rocks, and how their

Matarazzo Mandy More collaborations rock. They're just all very When I guess maybe it's I haven't been keeping up, I'm like, she should go on, this is us, Yes, start with Mandy, bring it back. I wanted to talk a little bit about Cassandra also. I think we've like we've touched on her quite a bit already, but I just really enjoy

her as a character. We commented on this too, but they're like, well she's not She's Jewish and that equals punk rocks, smoking, getting drunk at school, like like that equals that equals the opposite of religious, which is like

Jewish is also a religion. So yeah, it feels like a very like two thousand four American simplistic interpretation to be like the opposite of Christian is Jewish Jewish, You're like, well, it's really just a different like so yeah, like well, if the writer it's just like this weird false math equation where it's like, well, if the opposite of Christian is Jewish, in the opposite of what Christians do is what a Jewish character would do, which is also like no, no,

but like interesting attempts. I don't know either way. I really enjoyed her character, the part where at the beginning when she's like fake speaking in tongues and she's really just being like, my hot pussy, it's good. That also means that Susan Surandon for sure saw this movie and was like I'm sure she was proud. Yeah, like Susan Surrandon was in Rocky Horror. Yes, I'm sure she was like, yes, following my foot stuff like she sings touch me. It

was an homage to touch me. That's true. Yes, incredible. She also has a rocking bod like that last seme and she's chasing. I think that was like a moment for me when I was younger, like, oh god, yeah, there's definite cleavage. She manages to work past again another god awful haircut. I'm like, what is this? What is this? May it never return? Oh? But it will? They always do,

always cycle back. Also shout out to the scene where it's right after Dean has come out to Mary and then Mary Google's just the word gay, which is so funny. And then what comes up is guys ram a lot dot com, which I did go to and it like directs to I forget what podcast it is, but it directs do a YouTube link of a podcast talking about this movie, which is really clever, which means that podcast bought that domain name that god that's wait, let me

let me do that right now. They honestly deserve it. It's um my brother, my brother's friend, and me is the podcast. So shouts out to them and their episode on saved, which you can find if you go to guys ram a lot dot com bookmarked on my browser. That's my favorite thing to do is go to uh. If there's a website or an email address in a movie, you better believe that I will send an email to that email address or go to and go to that, or a phone number that doesn't start with five five five.

You're like, then it was something, And usually it's just like I remember that Luke on Gilmore Girls said a non five five five number one time and it was like donate to Red Cross and I was like, damn it, not that someone gave me their phone number. Um. I wanted to talk about this when we're talking about if it passes the Backtel test. Yeah, I think we're there. Yeah, the exorcism. Maybe we'll start with the exorcism scene. It's amazing.

I have been contemplating does it pass the Bechdel test because it's three girls in the van and they take they take Mary and they perform an exorcism on her. But they're talking about God and Satan in the exorcism and but our God and Satan women. Oh well, I like that's open the interpretation. Yeah, I think that, yes, it is open to interpretation. But I think these particular people's interpretation of God and Satan is that they are men. Mandy Moore thinks that they're man, that God is a man.

But it's also just a ridiculous scene I'm filled with the power friends and throws a bible at her. It's just so good. Mandy Moore, really, I feel like shines in the scene. She's wearing like not a juicy guitar track suit, but essentially a juicy guitar track suit, and she's with the Halloween out with the with the angel wing. She's like the opposite of a walk to remember, whipping a bible at someone's ahead Like, it's incredible, a great scene, a great thing. And they're also what are they what

soundtrack are they playing there? I felt like, oh, like parody. Isn't Halloween. It's something very spooky. Yeah, it's like hurtying like a horror soundtrack when they abduct their friend to throw a bible at her head. Yeah, maybe my instinct was Halloween, but I also could be quite wrong. I don't remember. It's something very ominous and spooky whatever it is, seventies horror of he is being parodied, and I'm like,

I'm so young, I have no idea. Um, I think it passes the Bechtel test in other cases though to a ton. Yeah, Honestly, like many times recently, forgot to pay attention to the Bechtel test. It definitely, I mean, it definitely passes quite a bit. I mean I think that most of the interactions in this movie are between women. I mean there are a lot of you know, women aren't getting along, they're not seeing eye to eye quite a bit. But that doesn't mean that they're talking about men.

Like it passes between Mandie Moore and genom Alone, passes between genom Alone and Mary Louise Parker, passes between Jenna Malone and Susan Sarandon's daughter, didn't use one character name. It passes a lot. Yeah, I like trying to pay attention to it. And there was one scene where they're watching Valerie Burton Elly and I was like, all this passes. It was just them talking about the movie. But I was like, oh yeah, yeah, it's her and her mom just sitting on the couch. This works. You love to

see it. It does. And for a movie, you know, for a movie written by a man, that's not nothing and we'll take it. Or yeah, when they're when her and Cassandra are talking about her being pregnant in the bathroom, yeah, almost that entire scene passes. I guess the where he does get murky as God comes up a lot and they seem to all be like pro God and Jesus are talked about a lot. The Ariana Grande song had not yet dropped and it hadn't been introduced into the zeitgeist.

But yeah, yeah, it's passes um. Let's take a look at the film with via the nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination of the film through an intersectional feminist lens um. This one, it's a little tricky, as there are some things, as we discuss, that are quite of the time of two thousand four, like problematic language that gets used by characters who we are meant to be rooting for, the whole fat shaming storyline done by characters who we are meant to be rooting for, um,

things like that that obviously age terribly. On the other hand, you have this movie that's satirizing, like religious fundamentalism, specifically like Christian attitudes towards queerness and towards premarital sex and

and and things like that. That uh, the takeaway is like, think critically about these things and don't just do whatever your religious leaders tell you to do, because sometimes those things are harmful and hypocritical and they're doing it anyway, right, So yeah, I think there's there's a lot of things to like about the movie. I think that it does still fall into some you know, teen movie tropes and and stuff like that, But overall, I enjoy this movie.

I think it handles most of the things that it's trying to tackle pretty well. There's disability visibility, although it's not perfect. They didn't cast a disabled actor to play the part. I also want to point out that Roland is on the poster of this movie, but he appears to be standing along with the other main characters who also appear to be standing upright, So he's not in his wheelchair on the poster, which feels like deliberate erasure

of his disability, and that is messed up and confusing. Um. So, you know, there are missteps like that when it comes to the disability representation in this movie, but it also feels like it's going in the right direction in other regards, especially the movie giving Roland a romantic relationship. I wish we would have gotten to know the queer characters better. Different things like that where I felt the movie was

a bit lacking. But overall, I do appreciate that this movie is providing commentary on some of the more problematic and hypocritical and homophobic attitudes that unfortunately some Christians have. I would give this probably like somewhere between a three and a three and a half. Maybe I'll just kind of split it down the middle three point to five because a decimal love quarter nipple. Um, yeah, I don't know, or maybe it deserves more than that. I don't know.

The nipple scale also doesn't matter. Perfect magic, the perfect magic never made a mistake. No. People all the time are like, what you give this movie that nipple rating? And I'm just like, I don't know, I don't You just need to listen to the previous part. Yeah, just listen to the episode thing. If you're listening for the end,

I don't know what to tell you. I'll give it as I'll give it a three point five, and I'll give one nipple to Marry, one nipple to Cassandra, one to Roland, and I'll give my half nipple to Dean. And that's how I distribute my nipples today. Please and thank you. I'm gonna do three and a half as well. I agree with your interpretation, Geel, like like it is, like, especially for two thousand four, it's doing a lot right that most teen movies we're not doing right at the time.

I'm glad it was like successful. I'm glad that it got like for such a like you know, pretty like low budget movie. It has so many really like popular actors and performances that are really good. Um, it's a super super white movie. I feel like it's like one of it's most glaring flaws, which is also extremely two

thousand four of it to do. That said, there there's a lot that it does right, and it's I feel like kind of in I'm trying to think if like, um, teen movie has done what Saved did as well since and I can't really think of one. So it's kind of in a league of its own in that way.

And I really enjoyed rewatching it. Um and I still have a crush on Mandy Moore and three and a half nipples one to Marry Louise Parker, one to Mandy Moore, one of maccullague Culkin when all my crushes and then the other half goes to genlem Alone, who I hope it's doing great. Yes, yeah, Um, I feel like I want to be a different nipple, just because just to be different, even though I feel like a three point five is pretty fair. But I'm just gonna go with

four nipples so i can give full nipples to everyone. Um. I agree with all of the problematic stuff about it, which is why I can't really give it more. Um. But I also feel like two thousand four, it's like judging it by the time the Year of National Treasure,

we were different people. Yes, I also feel like we haven't really talked about this as much, but I give it points for having like a teen lead who is pregnant, Like we didn't really talk about like, like that's the big thing with the movie that I feel like we didn't talk about Mary as much. Um. So that being said, I'll give a nipple to Marry two Dean, to Tiya who hasn't gone to nipple yet, and to Valerie Burton

Elly for being on screen sometimes during the film. Hell yeah, yes, nice And you're totally right, Ellie, we did not talk about this. But teen pregnancy is something that we have a difficult relationship with as a society. It is generally very shamed by society and then more recently by the media. Kind of exploited with like the whole teen mom expanded

universe and stuff like that. Totally totally, and you know, while it's not an ideal situation, I think it's like very much worth reframing how we think about teen pregnancy because it usually happens because teenagers are not provided with the education and resources they need about how to prevent pregnancy, because comprehensive sex education is not a thing that is commonly taught in schools in the US, and no matter how many times proving that sex education lowers the rates

of teen pregnancy, and by withholding information and resources and tools, you are perhaps doing people a disservice, just imagine, right, especially because like in a Christian school like the one featured in the movie, they are almost certainly doing if they do have any sex education at all, it's probably abstinence only sex education, which is like basically what I got when I was in high school, which which kind

of extends to fearmongering. Reminds me of the scene in Mean Girls of like if you have sex, you will die right there, So I mean, I think, yeah, if if you want to hear a more a longer conversation about how teen pregnancy are treated in movies. I would direct you to our Juno episode on the Matrion. I think is maybe the longest conversation we've had about it indeed. Um, but yeah, I think it's it's worth just kind of

re evaluating. I've had to do some of my own kind of re evaluating how I feel about teen pregnancy, um, because you know, it's it's our broken education system that's really mostly at fault for why teen pregnancy is a thing. One of the issues that in particular that shaming the individual does worse than nothing and I and I like that.

I mean, in the case of this movie, it kind of like ends ideally, but that Yeah, that like the teen and question had a wonderful support system, and not all teenagers are that lucky, but it but it is nice to see that shown of um, that a baby needs a support system, not the nuclear American family that we're shown so often for sure. Yeah. Anyway, Lisa, what about you for your nipple rating? I definitely had three point five as well, So I'm going to just go

back to being a shape and following. I mean, it's a good it's a good rating. It's popular because it's right, you know, yeah, exactly like a popular thing, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm also going to give one to Tia. I'm gonna give one to Jni Mary Louise Paka. I think she deserves it. I'm going to give one to Save the Musical, which we didn't discuss but that exists found on YouTube, which is um like John Dawest is in it, like, um,

Tripp Vanderbilt from Gossip Girl he plays. Are you talking about Aaron Tibate, Yes, yes, yes, I'm like Aaron Tibate. Also is Eron Tibate like he was on Broadway before he was in Gossip CRP. I know, but I don't know his name. I just know him as Trip Vanderbilt, all right, Um. And then I'm going to give half to the guy who gives Patrick a skateboard because he's

he's a friend. Yes, I love that his last name is Wheeler and therefore a skateboard like all of the we didn't really talk about it, but the way characters are named is so like goofy silly satire names like obviously Mary. But then you know Patrick's skateboard is the character. Um, and you got a hand at to Patrick's skateboard. He has a skateboard pastor skip just sounds like a youth pastor, and I was just like folly on board with like, Yep, that sounds like a youth pastor to me. Tia the

name of my h boyfriend's childhood dog. So coincidence impossible. Definitely, definitely not Lilian. I'm sure it's a reference to something that I is out of my pay grade intellectually. Isn't Lilian the original evil woman in the Bible? Or is that Lili? It's but still probably close. That might be. Probably she's the temptress. Everyone who listens to Russia who is like into mythology is like, it's like, you know nothing,

stop talking right now. Probably it's a method. I don't know. Also, I'm going to take my nipple away from Mary and give it to Veronica because she deserved way more. She deserved what she thought she deserves anything she got nothing side, But thank you Ellie and Lisa for being here. What a treat, Thank you for having us. Where can people check out your stuff and tell us about the pod? Yes, Lisa, do you want to take it? Or you want me to take it? I was just gonna let you take

it all right. So we're really excited about our new podcast. It's called Sweetbetter. It's all about Sappho, who, to be honest, like as a feminist, not enough people know about Sappho, just like as a literary figure who was a woman. You know about Homer, like you learn about all of these ancient Greek poets, and we don't really learn that much about Sappho. So Lisa heard an episode of Buffering where our other host, Elise, was on and they were talking about Sappho, and Lisa, do you want to take

it from there? That you were like, I stalked her on the Internet and was like, can we make a podcast about this? One's because I want to listen to one and it doesn't exist and it's such a cool story and I can't believe I didn't know it, So, um, yeah, don't listen to anybody's stalking and creeping on the internet

gets to you everywhere. Yes, yes, And so from there we all just met on the Internet and put together this show because we all think Safa was really cool and we think anyone who listens to the show will agree with us. So I hope you check it out. We also write and perform a song for each show. So that's a fun thing that we decided to do. That adds to our workload. Yeah, because well, because Sapho is a poet, but actually all of her poems were meant to be sung. So we take the poems and

we turn them into songs. But they're more contemporary pop songs what we envisioned they might be if Sappho was around now, sort of like how Mandy Moore was just a poet, but her poetry is just meant to be sung exactly, bring it all around, perfect exclamation point. Okay, and oh the Mandy Moore I will say, the Mandy Moore rule in movies is if Mandy Moore is in the movie, does she get to sing a musical number

to remind you that she's Mandy Moore? And this movie follows the Mandy Moore rule because she sings a few times and it's never too it's never like a walk to remember invasive, but it is. And she sings in Princess Diaries too, she sings. Stupid Cutist is my favorite iconic everything. I love her so much. She's so perfect. Is there a movie she has not had a song in it? I wonder. I'm like, I'm trying to remember back to how to Deal which looking up the poster

her worst haircut. Yeah, and I don't think she sings in the in the one way she's the president's daughter, but like maybe she's on the soundtrack, you know, maybeundtrack. You just don't know, but yeah, well you can find I'm like, also, I don't even say no if I said where you can find it. You can find at sweet Bitter podcast dot com correct or sweep Better pod, yes that's correct, or at sweet Bitter Pod on Instagram and Twitter, and we're in all of the podcast apps.

And make sure you're write sweet better as one word, because if you write it as too, we won't come up. Oh good to know sad times got to be specific. Well, thank you again so much both of you for for being here and talking about Saved. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe

to our Patreon ak Matreon. Why don't you It's five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the entire back catalog you love to see it, and then you can get our merch on t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast, and we also have masks if you need a mask, which you do because you're a good person, aren't you, see and find out there. Yes, and uh, I think this episode we've all been saved, so that's safe. We

saved exclamation point. Let's change it to the back dol cast. The back cast by