Save the Last Dance with Khadija Mbowe

On the Bechdel Cast.

The questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism?

It's the patriarchy.

Zephy and bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

Oh hey, there, teenager on the train that I sat next.

To who me?

Do you like ballet?

Yes?

But do you still do it?

No?

And I don't want to talk about it. Oh okay, sorry, Ballet killed my mother. Okay.

Oh there I said it. Ballet and my dreams killed my mother. Okay, are you happy?

Wow?

That's a lot of trauma that you know.

It's kind of like, did you ever watch Kruella?

I must, I know, I haven't seen it.

It's like so funny to me because it's like the girl Boss mentality taken to like a fourteen, So it's like it stops being bad and it starts getting funny. They rewrite it so that Kruella only hates Dalmatians because they like killed her parents.

Oh that's right, And you're like, what, that's basically what happens in this movie.

Ballet killed her mother and so now she can't talk about it.

I mean fair, Yeah, anyway, Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin.

I feel like the Sorry, my name is Jamie. I feel like the moral of this movie is if you dream too big, it will kill someone.

So dream small or have no dreams.

If you have ambitions to go to Juilliard, someone will get into a car accident or there will be some kind of car catastrophe every time you audition, because it happens twice.

This happens a lot in movies of this era. I was thinking, there's some.

Hilary Duff movie that is rancid unfortunately about like raise your voice I think is called no indeed.

Yes, oh sorry, You're welcome now.

It's like I can't Some podcasts Dana want you to say anything until they introduce you. So I was silently violently nodding. There's no rules, one thing about me. I'm gonna bust out, calmly say oh oh, the epitome of white girls giving us nothing. Oh, raise your voice is a staple.

I love the I mean, it's like equally ridiculous that Hilary Duff is the voice of a generation, that Julia Styles is the ballet prodigy of a generation.

But she I think her brother dies. Her dreams kill her brother.

Yes, her brother. They were going to I watched this movie recently, So what happened was they were on their way to a three Days Grace concert. They came back from it. He snuck out of the house. He got in trouble, but he snuck out of the house. They went because he wanted to do it for her. And then on the way back, when they're singing, headlights and he's dead and she can't see flashlight, she doesn't want to audition, but her brother secretly send in the tape for her.

Wow.

I love the specificity of them going to a three days Grace concert. What an embarrassing way to die?

Are you many for? Hey? They died singing that. That's what happened. He died singing that.

I guess I need to watch this movie.

I've never seen it. Is it a D com?

It sounds like it's a D com?

No, No, But it's that middle ground place where like it's a little bit for older Ish teens. Okay, yeah, yeah.

It's for the Degrassi crowd or something. It's like slaighty above dcom age And she sees his ghost like comes to the concert or whatever, I miss, I would have appreciated a Julia Styles mom ghost.

Yes, sitting in the theater.

Oh yes, Casper can do it.

Save the Last Hands can do it exactly.

Okay, so we've immediately gotten deroute. Sorry, Welcome to the Bexel Cast.

Yes, this is our show where we examine movies through an inter sectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point. I just want to breeze right past that today. Look it up or listen to a different episode, because we show's.

Been on for forty five years. Okay, if you don't know what the tech, we barely talk about it.

It's the jumping off point.

For a bigger discussion about Chilia styles.

It's called marketing. Okay. And if you guys, I'm sorry not be attacking your audience. I know we have a.

Brand to maintain.

God no, but today's movie is.

Not The Hill or Duff one we were just talking about. It's Save the Last Dance, and we have an amazing guest we're so excited about. They are an unseerious content creator trying to get people to be less mean to each other. It's Kadija, mumbo, thank you so much for.

Being here, Thanks for having me. Oh gosh, we're starstruck. We're thrilled.

We're fans, which is wild to be because I literally I'm listening to you. You're on Behind the Bastards, and y'all are talking about that weird CIA sex cult thing.

Yeah yeah, Roberts accusing me of murder right and.

Left yep yep.

So, Kadija, what is your relationship with Save the Last Dance?

So, actually, Save the Last Dance is the first Okay, I grew up watching it.

One.

Of course, I always wanted to be a dancer growing up, but my parents wouldn't afford to put me in dance and were also like, girl dance. We did not come all the way from West Africa for you to come over here and dance, Like, open those books? What are you talking about? So? I always secretly loved ballerinas like that was always a thing that I like dreamt I could do. So I loved watching any kind of dance movie.

No, I didn't know.

It was like a part of a turning point and the kind of content you're making that's so cool.

Yeah, because I did video essays like once a month, but I was like, I'm going to make life advice and then I'll do video essays once a month. And then I was like, why don't I just like kind of mix these too. So I just like turned my camera on one day and was like, we gotta talk about Save the Last Dance because I have issues with this movie.

And then we watched that video. Because here's what happened with us. Jamie and I had prepped this episode to release on our Matreon as a part of Dance Sumber because the first movie we did was Flash Dance and then we were prepping to do Stay with the Last Dance, and then we were just like, this episode would really benefit from a guest.

Yes, and we both we realized in Uni said, because we had both watched your video and had like quoted it extensively, and we're like, we should just invite.

Them on the show. Like, what are we doing, We're being fools.

So we put a pause, we reached out to you, and we were like, I wonder if the reply, and then we covered burlesque on the matriar.

I fucking love burlest movie. I'm working side note, I'm working on a pole opera recital, and so that's a big inspiration visually aesthetically for it, because oh yeah, perfect watched it for the first time last year.

What a film.

It's just no hinges.

It is so Yeah, we were really into the whole air rights plot twist.

Yeah, it's so movie. You know, it's a movie that feels like a movie. It right.

That God disappeared too quickly, let's bring it back.

Yeah.

So anyway, so you responded, and here we all are and we're so delighted to have you. Yeah, Jamie, what is your relationship with Stay of the Last.

Dance similar to Kadija. I grew up watching this movie. I feel like it was like a real sleepover classic. I definitely saw it several times. I went to like community ballet classes where we like didn't compete, no one was particularly good. So the dancing in this movie was really great because it's not very good and we're like, we could do that, and like, tragically we may have been able to do it, because it's mostly just pointing, standing up, sitting down.

She does drop into those splits though, the middle splits. She does that. I was like, oh right, oh wait, okay, we weren't being kind to her because I forgot she immediately goes into that, and then everything else was yeah.

She trained, she trained, But yeah, I had like a pretty limited history with this, but I hadn't seen it in a long time before prepping for this, and so you know, it's very much a confronting your nostalgia demons kind of thing. And yeah, I forgot a lot of what happened in this movie. And I also forgot I think that this was my first viewing of this movie where I realized, I don't know what they're preparing for.

Because she's white and he's black and he's trying to give her flavor.

God, that really does seem to be the internal logic of the movie, because I was like, wait a second, is he a dancer?

Like do we know this?

Not?

What are they getting ready for? They're taking it so seriously. I love it.

Right because it's not until like past the midway mark that she learns about the the next string of Juilliard auditions. So before that, he teaches her how to sit in a chair.

And you, guys, I'm so sorry I need to say this. So as black people, dancing is really important, right, and so because of that, if you can't sit or stand or move your hips with some sort of attitude, it's kind of like a family embarrassment. Honestly, Like two of my siblings can't dance. And every time I'm like, I'm kidding, I'm don't, I'm not. Black people are on a monolith and i am not the representation for black folks.

I just He's like, you're not sitting in the chair, right, and so we have to incorporate this chair sitting as a part of your dance training.

You're like, yeah, exactly.

Even though at steps the club there is no point that any of them are sitting. No, no, well, I like, unless they're talking.

Yeah, but the sitting isn't a part of the dancing.

There's like four chairs for heated conversation there. This movie is I remember it being incredibly successful, and it just feels so like peak MTV movie of this time, where the soundtrack is pretty fucking awesome.

The soundtrack is bumping. I was like, Okay, hold on, you can do it.

Put your ass into it.

Oh you said that so reluctantly, I know.

I was like, I was like, because some of the lyrics are you can do it, put your back into it. And then I was like, is that the lyric or is it both of them?

I think it goes back and forth.

Music is amazing, Music is amazing. It could be good, things could be true.

You're so right.

I have a theory about this movie though, because I looked up the date it was released January twelve, two thousand and one. Guys, this was a pre nine eleven America. This was and when you think about that, it explains this movie. I don't know how, but I'm one of those people that were always connected back to nine to eleven.

I don't it's pre nine eleven and it's pre Shrek, and those are the two oo cultural markers.

It is pre Shrek. You're right, yeah, right, the final movie before then eleven spiritually spiritually before it was like two months.

I also didn't remember this in my memory.

This movie happened in New York, but I think it's because anytime I saw a city in a movie and as a kid, as like New York City, even if they're constantly calling at Chicago, it's New York City, it's beautiful. In any case, my history with this movie is yes, oh sorry, what is Oh my god?

Sorry, just like no, it's fine. This movie came out when I when I was a freshman in high school, so I was like the target demo, and I don't think I saw in theaters, but I probably saw it a few times at different like friends sleepovers, and we were all just like wow, cool dancing, and we just we thought it was cool. And I don't think i've seen it since. So that's what my history is. Wow, And I can't wait to talk more about it because this is a wild, wild movie.

It's a rich text.

It's such a rich text.

It almost definitely would have been my introduction to Carrie Washington as well.

Yeah, she was still a teacher when she was doing this movie. Really, yes, yes.

That warms my heart. She's so good in it.

Like she did not make enough money off this role.

Because like citation needed, but I'm pretty sure that was the case. I remember. I don't know when I was looking this up because I just like to learn about like how movies are made or like what the tea was behind the scenes. And yeah, apparently she was still teaching while she was doing this movie, because you know, we know they don't pay actors, y'all.

Come on, Nope, no, not ones that aren't famous already.

I did look it up, and it seems to be referenced in a number of publications. Ay, they're pulling a quote from her in Today dot com and People dot com.

Whoa, Okay, I love that, so it's true.

But yeah, she didn't earn enough money from this role because actors and especially black women are severely underpaid.

So which is still I mean, that's like a conversation that's been going on recently with.

Henson.

Yeah, crying off stage. Y'all too famous for their sah.

It's ridiculous. Yeah, So that conversation is ongoing.

Shall we talk about the movie?

You know, I think the time has come.

It's time. All right, Let's take a quick break first, and then we'll come back for the res cap and we're back. We're back, all right, So here's save the last dance. We meet Sarah played by Julia Stiles. She's a teenager who used to dance ballet. We get some flashbacks where she's hanging out with her mom. She's preparing for an audition to Juilliard. She's begging her mom to

Right as Sarah is like coming in hot but like she's blowing it anyways, you know, like like if she hadn't fallen, Juilliard has an eight percent acceptance rate, right.

And also, girl, yeah, like you I saw her leg going up with some of those I was like, Julia, activate those glute muscles, girl, lift lift that leg.

Yeah, but no, it's definitely her mom's death that botches the I mean, honestly though, when I was a kid, that was like the most engaging editing sequence I'd ever seen in my life. Oh the juxtaposition, I mean, come on, it was right up there with Oh my gosh, do you remember I forget what song is playing in the Glee episode where the cheerleader gives birth.

I think it's going on.

Oh Bohemian Rhapsody. Yeah, God, it's I don't know where that was stored in my brain.

What The fact that both of you even are referring to this sequence.

Also really incredible too. Thousands era editing just just shut up.

Okay. So the audition gets all messed up, and Sarah is devastated by her mother's death and she steps away from ballet. She arrives in the South Side of Chicago to live with her dad. Now their relationship is pretty awkward. He's showing her around his apartment she gets settled in. I was getting Charlie and Bella Swan vibes from this because it's a very similar scene where Charlie Swan's like,

That is well spotted. I like that she has jazz dead. Had to be like, this is a character I haven't seen before. I don't think I've ever seen jazz dead.

So jazz Dad, they say it's.

All been done, not so ah, jazz dead is definitely I knew.

Okay. So then Sarah goes to her first day at her new school, and it's worth noting that the student body is predominantly black and she's one of the few white students there. This will all become relevant later. During her English lit class, they're talking about Capodi and she gets into this literary debate with a classmate named Derek

He had my number from the very beginning because he did the thing that I love when boys do in movies, which is quote things. He's quoting various things, and so I was like, yeah, I have a crush on him.

He's like if a god can read, I'm immediately like, oh.

My god, like a teenage boy character is canonically literate. I'm like, ooh, okay, I'm gonna be interested in listening.

And can we just say, real quick, we're talking about Kerry Washington. Kerry Washington before the lip quiver, because we all know that lip quiver. It's like the Florence Pew frown. And then is it Sean Patrick.

It's yeah, he has three first names, and that's not acceptable. Sean Patrick Thomas, child actor, Serial Killers.

So Patrick Thomas and his nostrils, because Sean packs of Thomas's nostrils every time I recognize it. I was like, good for you, man, his nostrils are doing their own performance.

But anyway, they're flaring, and they were.

Flaring a lot. I just couldn't stop staring at it. As a kid, I just really remember his nostrils.

Okay, good nostrils. Game.

It's like the Will Palter eyebrows.

It's like, just sometimes that reminds me Jamie, did you do you remember that Will Poulter is in the Revenant, Yes I do. I did not remember that.

The only reason I saw the Revenant I was like, I'm wanting the Revenant to get horny.

I have no reference. I've never seen it.

I had only seen it one other time, but I was scrubbing through it the other day for a little special surprise for one of our live shows coming up. But I was like, what Will Poulter's in this? I wonder if Jamie knows anyway. So back to Save the Last.

Dance, a young Will Poultz. Okay, I don't like how I said that the same age. That's fine, okay.

So one day in gym class, Sarah gets on the balance beam and she starts doing ballet type moves and Shanil and her friends are like, wow, you can do ballet. In that case, you should come with us to a hip hop club named Steps. So after school, Sarah, Shaneil, Derek, and their friend Snooky ahead of their time, they're hanging out and they're kind of planning to go to Steps, and they arrange to get Sarah a fake ID so

Yeah, virtually stot like her acting style is like just not selling this really very much.

I wanted to shout out one of my favorite lines in the movie.

I think it's Nicki at the beginning of I don't know, there's elements of this movie where you're like, for sure this was written by multiple people over the age of forty, because there's the there's the scene where I think it's like Nikki who's like she's dancing in the hallway and they're like, what are.

You doing and she's like, I'm just doing a little hip.

Hop, yeah, serving other people. And then Shaniel's like, oh, that's just a little hip hop.

Yeah, You're like, that's a mom wrote that.

Yeah. The original script is whenen by some random white dude, and then this black woman came in later apparently and like rewrote it and stuff. But I was like, was this how they were talking to early two thousands or is this old head stuff?

I think the damage was done when the first job, I'm gonna say Cheryl Edwards innocent.

Aryl Edwards protect black women, Daryl Edwards, Anna said anyway.

So they're like, Wow, this girl's so cool, she should definitely hang out with us. So then Sarah meets Shanil at her place before they head out to Steps. And this is when Sarah learns that Shanil has a baby who her I believe it's her grandmother seems to be like the primary caregiver for and she Kneel's like, bye, baby, I'm going out to the club. So Chanil gives Sarah her fake ID, she makes some adjustments to Sarah's outfit and then they go into Steps. People are dancing, people

That scene that line.

I know you don't want to say it, so I will say it. It's like, who invited the white girl to the negro function? Julia South guest mustn't been sick because there are any negroes here. And I was like, Julie, I'm gonna stop rolling your neck. You are in mixed company and you got invited here. You are a guest

Yeah, that scene is baffled and you're just like she has Sarah. The character of Sarah, just in every situation, displays a stunning lack of cel phon awareness, like and is never punished for it. This is a world where her lack of self awareness will never result in even a stray look.

She never learns anything from it. It's just like, what is the point of the movie.

Then she's living the dream. She doesn't grow orgy.

And she gets into Juliard.

Yeah, oh my gosh, she hasn't even become a better dancer.

Despite all of Derek's efforts. Okay, so Nicky, she's like one of the antagonistic forces for Sarah, and she has a romantic history with Derek and she wants to get back together with him. He's not into her anymore. But because there's this like blossoming flirtation between Sarah and Derek, Nicky's like, h gross.

Yeah, every word out of Nicki's mouth is just like a one liner insult.

About Sarah being white. Yes, And I'm like, Nikki you listen girl, Bianka laws in love you down, high schooler forever. Yeah, you a little too light to be coming after this white girl. Not saying that you're white, but girl, it's the light skin privileged for me. And then I also was like, is Derek a colorist?

I mean, it's possible.

He's really me stepping back.

It seems to be favoring light skin.

Listen, Derek, I'm just curious. Although that is Hollywood though. They like a dark skinned black man and a mixed biracial black woman. That's the ideal couple form in Hollywood for black folks.

We've seen it time and time again. Okay, So meanwhile, Sarah is at the club. She's just kind of watching people dance. She's observing, and then Derek comes over to her and asks her to dance. So they start dancing. He's showing her hip hop steps.

They're just doing a little hip hop Caitlin, all right, She's like, what is this like, it's just a little hip hop.

Then from now he's a little hip hop.

She's not great at it, but she's trying her best. And then a fight breaks out that Derek gets caught up in the middle of because there's this guy named Malachi who Derek is friends with, and Malachi is involved in I think drug dealing is I don't know if they come out and say it specifically, but that seems to be the implication anyway, So there's this like fistfight.

Oh say what? Say what?

Say what?

Yeah, you know that, I like it. Baby.

Meanwhile, there's standing up and sitting down.

She has to learn how to sit in a chair. It's so important her mom died.

Came and take it easy.

So they're hanging out a lot and he is teaching her some steps, and like you pointed out, Jamie, they're not preparing for anything. She's not anticipating another Juilliard audition yet. My guess is just like they have a crush on each other, so they're using this as an excuse to hang out, but.

It's the means by which they fall into weird love with each other.

Right, So anyway, he's teaching her all this stuff and then she does a ballet move. He's like, whoa, you know ballet and she's like, yeah, but it killed my mom.

So I don't want to talk about it attitude. I don't want to talk about it. For what He's like, so you said, Rondijan whatever because you don't want to talk about it, which I appreciated that lie.

I really like that, but yeah, because I was like, oh, they he said the thing that teen movies never say, the thing that you're thinking.

That's nice, Okay, So she's refusing to talk about her mom. Also, Sarah has witnessed Malachi threatening and assaulting a girl at school, and rather than telling him about that or like doing anything to help protect this girl, she's just like, hey, Derek, why are you friends with Malachi? And Derek defends him, and then they move on. They just move right past

What shocked me. Yeah, on her neck, and I was like, has his lips even been on your mouth? No?

Yeah, I was really Yeah, because after he gets into Georgetown, it's game on for some reason, Like.

Listen, the prospect of full tuition and your future being set for you. If that doesn't aroused you in this economy, I don't know what would.

I'm like, there has to be a missing scene where they are like because it seems like they're together really suddenly after like this really slow burned flirtation, and then yeah, in the train scene, you're.

Like, oh, I guess that they're dating because they're on a date and they're like making out on the train.

But they haven't even kissed on the lips yet. It's it's really weird. But anyway, So they go to the ballet. She's apprehensive about going in because of all of her ballet trauma, but they watch the performance. It upsets her. And this is when she tells Derek that she feels responsible for her mother's death because she died on the way to Sarah's Juilliard audition. And she's crying and Derek's like, it's not your fault. Don't give up on your dreams.

I'm also just like, if I were Derek, I'd be like, she should stop dancing.

And go to therapy for U for at least a few months. Seriously.

Well, also like if I was the superstitious type, which I am, I'd be like, seems like every time this girl auditions for Juilliard, someone she loves die and she wants.

Me to show up to that audition.

I'm not going.

Yeah, I'm going to Georgetown.

Yeah Yeah, I'm just like they're gonna I guess that's just a high school couple, but I'm like, you guys are gonna break up soon. Unfortunately, I'm I didn't have him go to a school in New York Yeah, to imply that they would like stay together.

The plot did not give them a chance, because.

Georgetown is a DC is that yeah, okay, okay, I guess not too far, but.

Yeah, sure, all they've been through a long distance relationship. It just seems cruel right.

Anyway, So she is like, okay, fine, I'll dance again, and this is when they have their first on screen kiss. Then she takes out her ballet shoes and puts them on for the first time since her mom died, and she learns that Juilliard is holding auditions in Chicago in one month, so she starts prepping and getting into shape, which includes ballet classes and it also includes Derek continuing

Yeah, I'm like, are they rehearsing to go to Steps? Because that's so like if true, that is like maybe they really did find each other, because that is like the doorkiest thing in the world.

That's so cute and weird.

I mean, I don't know if this happens or not, but I feel like, when you go to a dance club, you don't do choreography that you practiced in a random classroom.

Y'all have not gone to clubs with dancers. Let me tell you something, the girls. The girls will bust out the corey yo oh, the dance circle. Yeah. I spent a lot of time in my early twenties going to clubs with dancers that it was always a thing. They wouldn't bust out like choreo that they learned in class, but they definitely would bust out stuff where you're like, did you practices? Yeah, this is a little bit rehearse.

Did you rehearse for a party?

Okay?

Well I stand corrected.

Then I'm just here to be the reference for black and dance.

You know, thank you. Okay. So everyone's like watching their choreography and they're like, oh my gosh, wow, look at Sarah. Go except Nikki, who cuts in and starts dancing with Derek. She's putting her butt all over him, and Sarah gets jealous and leaves the dance floor.

I love that turnive phrase, Gaale.

I know she's putting her butt all over him. So I was like, yeah, yeah, I mean she is am I wrong' No, no, you're correct, not wrong.

I just didn't acpect the words in that order.

Yeah, exactly the way they came together poetry.

She can do it.

She puts her ass into it.

Every time you quote the lyrics, you do it so reluctantly. Well that time I did that on purpose. Okay, good, okay, okay, it was a call back. Oh we love a callback.

You're right, you're right, you're right putting her ass onto it.

Right, we need a remix of the song.

You can put your ass.

All over it, all over it.

That's what he said.

Yes, okay. So Nikki is dancing with Derek now, Sarah is off to the side, and Malachi approaches Sarah to be like, stay away from Derek Whitey.

He calls her, he's oil you, milk.

That does definitely happened.

Okay, Oh my goodness.

So then Derek comes over and he's like, babe, but what's the matter. We were just dancing. It's no big deal. I would never do anything to hurt you. And she's like, t he okay. So then they go back to her place and she's like, my.

Jazz dad is out jazzing all night, out jazzing all night with Kim Katrol.

She's there scattinga.

He looked at all the he dogs, he looked at all the I never knew such a hell of balloon.

Like I didn't know you had it memorized.

Is that little dog Ray had to do one for.

Listeners who were not aware we were referring to a video where Kim Katrol scats with her jazz husband yes and.

His double bass his upright yes, and.

It's maybe the most uncomfortable thing that one could watch.

Uh.

Anyway, So he's out jazzing away he is while his daughter's fucking.

Yeah, because they have sex in the living room because that's like where her bedroom is right now. She's sleeping on the couch. They fuck on the couch, presumably, and we don't talk about that enough anyway. Okay, Then we see a couple scenes where Derek is hanging out with Malachi and some other guys and they're judging him for dating a white girl. Then they're playing basketball and there's a drive by shooting because Malachi is in the middle of this turn for luckily, no one is hurt, but

I'm like, Derek Georgetown, Derek, come on, you're kidding.

Meanwhile, Sarah keeps working on her audition, but it's not going well her auditions. The following day, she has a tender moment with her dad, who I've mostly left out of the recap, but he is in the movie and we can bring him up.

He's I'm sorry I did too much jazz and not enough Dad, and she's like, I forgive you.

Sort of yeah, that's it.

I mean, I know that it seems like her parents were divorced for some time, but I was sort of like, wow, he does not care that his child's mother is very suddenly dead.

He's like showing no. He's like, well sucks, his life is fair.

I was giving one night stand were nice seed, We hooked up, she had you, and I was like, I gotta go, jazz id you this. I can't.

He was not even pretending to care.

He was not no good for jazz Dad anyway. So she's like, I just miss mom so much and I need someone who loves me to be at my audition, and jazz Dad is like, well, I love you, I could come, and she's like really, then we see Shaniel admitting to Derek that she had told Sarah that she agreed with Nikki that black men shouldn't date white women, and Derek realizes that's probably why Sarah was so confused about her relationship with Derek, so he calls the thing

It's true, Kevin Stewart, Bob, everyone's there.

They're all there, so we see them shooting at the other people who they're in this like turf war with. But Malachi and his minions get caught and arrested and also their car explodes, so it's like, again, if you're in a car while Sarah is auditioning for Juilliard, there's going to.

Be a kid.

I was like, truly, like people get into auto rex while she's trying to achieve.

Off this you're dancing hurts people literally.

Yeah, like be honest, like it's not worth it and you know it, you know it.

Yeah, you're not good enough to justify all these people's cars.

Exploding live sir is You're not Yeah, you're not borishna cough try not to pass out at that really good reference. I just dropped, Oh too late, pass Kay's throwing up.

Okay anyway, so Malachai has gotten arrested. Meanwhile, at the audition, Sarah messes up right away and she's like, I'm not ready. But then Derek bursts in and he runs to the stage. He's like, you can do it. So she starts again, and at first it seems like traditional ballet, but then it becomes a blend of ballet and hip hop, and then are like, whoa.

What is this music?

She's doing a little hip hop?

Oh my god.

Like the judges are like, what is that.

She's like they went from shrowning to smile, like just a little hip hop.

And then the judge who hates her is like, welcome to Juilliard.

Oh, I can't say this on the record, welcome to Juilliard. Which Chelsea and I when we watched this movie, we were as musicians who've like auditioned for Juilliard and all these other schools like that are like known in our community but not necessarily known outside of it because we both trained as classical singers. We were like, bitch, first off, you're not getting into the school because your audition sucked.

Real, unreal.

We just covered flash dance as well, and she also whiffs the beginning of her audition. She's like, can I start again? But the twist was flash dances. We don't even know if she gets in because the movie doesn't give a shit. They just wanted to date a forty year old man. But this one is interesting, yeah, because

On stage on stage.

It was Wow, they really found each other. They're weirdos.

I wrote in my notes, you need someone to go to the audition with you. Girl, you ain't cut out for this business because listen. Maybe it was a salty bitterness of me of like pursue my dreams without my parents' permission, but like my parents didn't even know if I had auditions for shit. I take myself there on the bus, did it and went back home like I don't I'm sorry anyway, Maybe she's too co dependent. She's too co dependent, and it's frustrating.

Like not for nothing.

I'd be mortified if someone I liked or like, someone who I cared about was at an audition. I'm like, leave me to the wolves that you'll never never.

Watch me look at me.

You don't need to perceive this, Okay, I'll tell you about it, and tell you about it from my delusional fantasy where they loved me, but like.

Me, I was robbed. I can't have anyone know that I was not, in fact robbed.

Oh goodness, Okay, so let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, and where shall we start, Kadija, is there anything.

You would like me this evil which is like so many things? Okay? Rich text. Firstly, yes, Nikki, I didn't believe Bianka Lawson had this much attitude, and I didn't believe her as the character. It almost felt like she was like do I really got to say all this, like you coming up in here stealing our men? And her neck I was like, give her something for that, because her neck kept rolling and she kept talking about like Okay, sorry, maybe this is a sorry, there's so

It's very complicated that the movie is not equipped to discuss meaningfully in any way.

They shouldn't have introduced it, Like I get maybe the one scene of the lady, the white lady in the train looking at them could have been a way to just do it, and like that would have been the only instance they really brought up of it. But of course, you know, movies have to have conflict. Instead of the conflict being I'm working through my trauma of my mom dying and dance and all of that, it's I'm kind of working through that, but mostly I like this guy

Right, so it has to And I feel like it's I hope of phrasing this curst late, but I feel like the movie does a lot of stuff to make Sarah seem to be the oppressed person like they go so far into the revert, like they're like, well, racism affects white girls as well, and you're like no, And this never like really registered for me until I was

Very weird, right, Yeah, because there's a way to me, there is a conversation there of yeah, like the colorism of all the joke that I made about Derek maybe being a colorist, or like, uh, just the idea that you're in a space. And I'm glad that Chanil pointed

Jail drugs and drive bys.

Maybe yeah, jail drugs and drive bys. I was just like, Okay, I get it. You know, different neighborhoods, especially because we're talking about poor black folks, so there's a different dynamic there too. It was just like all black people are poor and live in this part of Chicago, and because

Her She says because she's like, I met someone. And her friend assumes that the only guy that she would date would be a white guy, and she's like, oh, I didn't know they had white guys at your school, and she's like, they don't, but doesn't necessarily clarify that the guy that she met is not white.

Yeah, I mean, and again it's like you don't even see that character, like none of the white characters that.

Are we don't know.

The lady on the train, she's like racism the lady, and then they banquished racism the lady.

And then kind of like move.

Forward where it's like such as we have like patriarchy the guy, where it's like you just have to get rid of this one guy and you've solved it, which is like you know, movie logic, But like her dad doesn't seem to have, you know, an issue with her dating Derek, but also he doesn't give a shit about it, so I don't know.

Or he does it, but like when he's at the door, she's like, now it's not a good time and he leaves. But I'm like, is it because he's black or because he's dating her? Or I was like, are we going to explore this? I mean, he's a jazz musician living in the South Side of Chicago. He probably knows black people, I should hope, But you know, white people stole jazz too, so yes, so I'm like, you know, but we don't ever explore anything besides racism the Lady and reverse racism Nikki right.

I mean, there might be a world where this could conceivably happen. But even just Sarah, who comes from what appears to be a predominantly white suburban or more rural community going to the South Side of Chicago, she.

Was in Vermont, they did that all permits here, like what's the whitest pa.

Right, being suddenly immersed in a predominantly black community, and for her to just be like, yeah, I'm so cool with this. I fit in right away because of all the attitude I'm giving. And it's also like, Okay, that implication's also pretty messed up.

It's like, yeah, I'm glad that, like the black girls are having some fun, but it's all attitude and neck rolling. And I'm like the one scene at the beginning when she's with the black nerds and they're all sitting at the table being like we are the future, I was like, representation matter, Oh gosh, be like, don't let me catch you. See to get that table again, it's like see high school, high school.

Yeah, the clicks are there, but yeah, I mean, ultimately this movie ends up just being about a white girl suddenly finding herself in this black community and being like, oh, that's just a little hip hop. Well I'll learn that and then I'll all basically appropriate everything that is near me. She starts dressing differently. She starts like wearing her hair in twists and braids.

And she starts wearing tims. Yes, yes, yeah, that was the turning point in the movie. She put on those timberlands and.

She was like slamming, said slammon so much.

She said slamming a lot.

I forget if this was from your video, but like, I also watched Kenny j D's video about Save the Last Dance that came out recently, which was really really funny. But like the legacy of like movies where that this feels like very clearly placed in where it's like a white character like works through some external issue in their lives by briefly being in a predominantly black community.

This is a story of Taylor's oldest time hate and paneteer and bring it on? Mmm? Is it the second or third one with the launge noles in it? When she's crumping?

Oh god, I want to I want to say the first one, so I couldn't say.

This is basically say the last Dance but haten paniteer, and she goes to a predominantly black school.

Bring it on all are and nothing?

Yes, bring it on all or nothing. She goes to predominantly black school and cheers there, and the black girls had roll their necks and do not like her. And then she shows that she can do it by doing white mediocre dancing, which I'm gonna be honest and Canada at least I'll see at the clubs like, we'll all

But Yeah, Yeah, there's not a lot of information I was able to find about the production of this movie. I was really hoping for like an oral history kind of peace on this movie, but it doesn't seem like one exists, which is really frustrating because this movie, and a lot of teen movies, feels like studio notes within an inch of its life, to the point where it's like incoherent at certain parts, and it seems like whole

I'm like, did you that's why she.

Danced Ten Things I Hate About You?

Yeah, there's a see where she gets up on the table at a party and starts dancing, And again I would say, like, not particularly well, right.

I'm just like yeah, I'm sorry.

I'm gonna say the thing that I probably shouldn't say in mixed company. But here we go, older black man at a certain age. Y'all, y'all be given to little too much? What what is this? What you saw? Julius? I'm sorry. There are plenty of white girls out there that could have done a lot more and not been

Yeah, it's just like it does feel like this movie is directed by someone much older than the age demographic, which is true. He is almost fifty when he directed this. Not true to be agist with the direction, But when you're making a movie for teenagers, you should like talk to one, you should talk to one well because you're also talk to with you.

Yeah, you're bringing in the baggage of like two generations removed from the target demo and the actors in the movie, and so yeah, you're like bringing in this kind of like generational baggage from a bygone era. And all of this is happening in two thousand and one, which is like, you know, over twenty years ago now. So like it is, despite the movie having a black director and having a black co writer, the sole story by credit goes to

And he goes on to make this a cottage industry, like Duayne I.

And that's the reason why I was sideways, because he did a lot of these fuckings.

Yeah, he found something that worked and just relentless save the last dance the way she moves. Don't remember that one step up, save the last dance too, step up to the streets, make it happen. I don't know that is step up, three D, step up, Revolution, step up all in He makes like a billion step up dollars after this because he's like, uh, yeah, I think I.

Get kids movies and you're like, Dwayne, I'm not sure. I'm not sure those share Dwayne.

The kids just want to dance to a little hip.

So yeah, I mean, despite the movie having a few black creatives in like significant roles, significant creative roles, as you point out in your video, Esda Kadija, like this movie still has kind of like the stink of written by a white person all over it.

It's Hollywood white gaze, not the Hollywood white gaze. Because I always have to clarify that.

Not Andy Cohen.

Well that's a whole other that's a whole other conversation.

Yeah, I don't have time, but I mean just yeah, the way that this story ends up panning out as far as like she ends up in this predominantly black space, she starts just basically appropriating the culture. Anytime anyone calls her out for any behavior, she doesn't learn anything from it. She takes it as an attack, and then she's just like, well, I'm just gonna do whatever I want to do. And then she ends up incorporating the things that she learned

Yeah.

Well, and it's and I feel like it's also implied. And this like reminds me of a lot of the conversations from several years ago and still now of how like your Charlie d'milio's on TikTok would take and repost dances originally done by black users and then become super famous and you know, make a bajillion dollars off of that appropriation, and it's like, we don't get the feeling that at the end of this movie that like Sarah is going to continue doing hip hop and or that

A thing that I.

Didn't talk about in my video essay that I am thinking about more now is how we package desirability because I think someone like a Julia Styles, she's pretty popular around that time as an actor, and even now with like a Charlie Dmeliar or whatever like TikTok. People talk about the algorithm and how it does like certain facial features, certain looks, even complexions, like there is bias in its algorithm,

Like And this is something that I've had to contend with in my own like movie watching journey, where that's just so much of what's available are white centered stories. So they're just so ubiquitous that if you go to the movies or if you want to watch a movie, nearly ten out of ten times it's going to be a white centered story, which is why white people do have to almost deliberately seek out or like they have to kind of put in a more conscious effort, and most of them simply don't.

Yeah, it's you don't think about it. You don't know what you don't know. So from a like compassionate place, yeah, you don't know what you don't know, so you don't know that you're missing a whole genre. But also from a girl you got internet in access and saying wi fi, we all do. Like if you don't, if you don't want to put yourself in those positions to watch those movies where you might not get all the references or you might not like understand certain things, then you're not

But but yeah, it does kind of challenge like when you were saying, like, well, what it means when you say, like a movie is for you versus it's not where like a lot of white audience members, we'll look at a movie and be like, well, it's not for me because I don't see myself in it, so it's not

Oh it started. It started kind it was like calling and there was like you fucking broken book too, bitch.

Well that self talked fucking piece of shit.

But no, I always try to tell people in my videos, like you need to be intentional about consuming different things because media is not a place where you go to for creativity. It's not thinking outside the box. It's not a vision. They're packaging and selling to you what they think you want. And when they find somebody else that is willing to do something else and be creative and other people like it, they jump on that, you know,

No, totally yeah.

And like having it be like again, just like having the prerequisite be that something needs to be relatable for you to be able to connect with it, which is absolutely not true.

Bitch, stretch out your brain muscles like stop this, y'all.

I teach in my screenwriting classes. Brag, I teach screenwriting classes. Go to my website Kaitlyn Johntay dot com and sign up for that centering yourself. I say, one of the reasons that theme is so important as a writer to be like cognizant of what theme you're putting forth is because, like we relate to stories, not because the characters have the same exact experience that we do, but because those movies explore universally relatable themes that can be told via

Of these characters, Like, I can't relate with this. I'm like, you haven't seen the movie. You don't know that, like you.

It's yeah, it's very first and then Save the Last Dance is an interesting case study because the cast is predominantly black, but because the protagonist is a white person. You know, you discuss this in your video as well, but it just means that now it's a bunch of black characters propping up a white protagonist and being there to support this white narrative in this white girl's you know, struggle of self actualization.

Like and that's the thing that bothers me the most. It's always this like privilege will give you, like you said, it warps your brain, and it gives you this navel gazing thing where everything is about you and everything is personal, like people calling out the way the world is, which she's like, open up your pretty brow and look at the world, like you live in a different world than me.

Oh, please come back and talk about cuties.

Oh my gosh, I yeah, I want to rewatch it to.

The problem around that movie.

Lord, yeah I remember with Sarah.

Yeah, I feel like she does have a problem and like she has something to work through to the extent that she's like lost her mom and she's.

Lost a parent.

But like you're saying, like her problem or that what she's working through is just more important. It's just more important and the world has to bend to ushering her through that problem, where like Sarah is present, but she doesn't take initiative to help any of her friends through their problems, and the movie doesn't have that ex to her. Like the movie keeps being like she's the most amazing girl to ever live, and you're just like she's going through something, but she's like certainly.

Not, you know, like she's really really hot.

And I feel like we see a lot of people in the movie apologizing to her uselessly.

Even at the end when Shaneil apologized her, like we're still cool. I'm like, Okay, maybe Shanil didn't shouldn't have been that, Like you get into tip with your friends, she shouldn't have especially agree with Nikki is like that's the animy bitch you agree, will buy op. But even the way Sarah's like yeah, we're cool, but still has an attitude I'm like, bitch.

You owe her an apology as well, Like it's just like it's really yeah, like the world bends to solve Sarah's problem and solve Sarah's life while like playing into a lot of stereotypes that just like the whole thing is really undercooked.

It feels like, yes, that's a good word.

And again it's a white protagonist but a predominantly black cast otherwise, but I think like this movie was so popular and like popular among my age bracket, and I don't know if young people are still here. We probably not, but I feel like they're like, Okay, how do we make this movie that has a predominantly black cast palatable to a mainstream white audience exactly? And it feels like the movie just caters to that constantly, because again, like

Just which arguably she does what.

She doesn't do very well either, but like the story is told in such a way where it's like, Okay, this is palatable for white audiences because we're just watching her kind of just do whatever she wants, appropriate whatever she wants, not learning lessons along the way, even though they're like friend of the show. Jordaane Cyles has a piece called White Girls, Better Black Women and Save the Last Dance where she talks about how Shaneil was like done so dirty and has like good points and is

It's like you came with me to disappointment. I'm asking you for help. Also, girl open and putting red eyes you over here, sitting here, word about you, Jewel audition. I got a baby that I did get care of. Yes, Dad is trying my patience every two mins.

It m h.

It's like people will often depict black women as bitter but not go into why they might be bitter for sure, Why am I upset? Why am I angry? Because I don't think being bitter or angry is a bad emotion to have. I'm like, lean into the anger, lean into your villain era, like, feel your feelings. But why is it that me feeling those feelings makes you so uncomfortable to the point where you have to walk away, or you step away or I have to come and apologize

And Sarah refuses to even consider that there's any truth to what NICKI saying, to what Daniels saying, and just I don't know. It has this like superhuman ability to make the takeaway from every scene be about her.

You know what it is? Oh my god, Okay, I had I have a few biracial friends, and one of them one of my best friends. She says that her fear is always her mom is white and her dad's black. Fear is always that her mom would say some shit like I'm not racist, I have black children. Like that's always her deep fear. And I had never thought of that before because I'm not biracial, and I remember being like,

Mm hmm.

It's given Kim Kardashian when she wrote that letter about oh my god, I'm gonna have black children and I can't believe that the world will treat them this way. And Chris was like, really proud of you, Kim, and I was like, go, your children are so fucking wealthy. Your kids are not not to say that they might not. They're gonna deal with stuff whatever, But like your kids that will be able to have security get driven in

Yeah.

I managed to wipe that that statement from my mind. I'm forgot.

Sorry, sorry, no, but there's this phenomenon of you know, white people being like, well, I can't be racist, I have a black friend, or I'm dating a black guy, or like.

Do you know a black person or you actually friends with them? Because like a lot of y'all know black people, but are you actually friends?

What do you have out?

Do you go to their house? Yeah?

This? Yeah, I'm like, And also you need to have more than like this is the other thing. You need to make a conscious effort of some people. You can't help where you live, right unless you have the money to move places. So if you live in areas where you're only seeing black people, like you don't see black people that much, and the only interaction you have is through the media, different types of media, not just TV shows and movies, advertising, whatever. When you meet a black person,

Like shit, like that, But yeah.

I also have grown up in so many different types of environments where I've been in predominantly black spaces, predominantly Hispanic schools, predominantly white schools as well, So like, yeah, it's interesting when you note that people have never had to go out of their comfort zones in terms of their physical identity and how little we mix or integrate.

Actually, I can speak to the experience of growing up in a predominantly white community. I grew up in a small rural town in western Pennsylvania. There was very, very very little racial or ethnic diversity, and of course I'm going to and I did harbor racial biases growing up. I didn't know any better, And like you said, my frame of reference was in the media I was consuming. And it wasn't until I went to college and actually like met and befriended people who weren't white and started

Yeah, I mean even conversely, I grew up in a predominantly black and Hispanic neighborhood and that because I feel like the way that this is presented is that, like Julius Diles, by being a white girl in a predominantly black space, that's all it takes to do the work is just by like hanging out.

For a couple of weeks. And it's like, that's absolutely not true.

There are white people in my community that are tremendously racist. Like it's just feels like it's this very movie presentation that sets the bar it like sub zero, like in the core of the earth to be like to actually have engaged with any issue on race, which again, like we were talking about, Sarah doesn't. She does not engage, like she's around.

But she combatd that white lady in the train and that was it.

She defeated racism, the lady, and you're just like, it's just I don't know. I mean, I guess it does go back to your point, like it's just like unbelievably Hollywood, and it's like the problem of racism has to be solved, and it's like the stakes are the same as getting into Juilliard in spite of having no talent, and like these are the two and they're equally important because fucking who knows.

When you said you grew up in probably black and Hispanic neighborhood, I was like, I'm always fascinated by white people like that. Not because I'm like, what was that like, but just because I'm like, okay, so you've grown up around in proximity to people, and you felt what it

Then everything ja a little bit like.

Sarah's like white discomfort is something that we see throughout the movie, and it's just like, no, it was actually fine for her to walk away from that conversation with Shanil where Shanil is making good points, and but because it made Sarah the white girl uncomfortable, she has to leave. And then it's actually Shanil who owes Sarah an apology by the end, and it's just like.

For making her uncomfortable.

This is like off topic, but like I have some issues with how like self care.

Stuff is sort of present, like mental health.

I think that a lot of like mental health languages has been co opted to get people out of uncomfortable conversations they need to be having it that they don't want on.

A video about therapy speak Oh my god, wait in my spirit.

It's gonna be crash landed into my algorithm. It's like, I mean, it is wild. I think that there is a like self care lend you can apply to that scene where we're saying that Julia Styles's character is clearly wrong, where it's like she had to protect her energy from the discomfort. She doesn't need to engage with that, which is just like telegraphic that like she doesn't need to engage with issues around race and poverty because they don't

Thank you, poor Malachi.

Okay, Malaki deserved more too, because he was there was a lot. There was masculinity, your respect, a particular black masculinity, and what does that do that expectation, especially when you don't have, as he's saying, like the smarts, like allegedly he doesn't have the smarts like Derek like to go to Georgetown. He's like, this is what I have. I'm like, okay, that's something. Oh but no, no, he's just a mean, he was abusive and terrible, so yeah, like.

You know, right, And it's like Malachi doesn't really have a chance with the audit because we see him being physically abusive to a student, but.

We don't see the nice part of him. We only hear though, like he was willing to go to Juvie for Derek, which is an admirable trait to do. Like these like they threw everything at him and he said, I'm not gonna snitch. Like there could have been even that moment when he came to Julia Styles. I forgot what had happened before I watched it, so I thought he was gonna come up to her and try to like talk to her or like say something. I don't know, I just thought that maybe there was gonna be a

Right, you white right? Could be that, And on top of that, she's weird and.

And she's not very good at dancing. Yeah, what I found interesting about that especially the Malachi Derek friendship. Is something that I observe a lot among men and their friendships with each other. Is that someone who has seen a different side of a person will say like, Hey, that guy was really shitty to me, or I saw that guy doing something really awful, maybe you shouldn't be friends with him, and the guy's like, well, I haven't seen that. I've only seen the good side of him.

So yoh, you are right. That is the point to bring up too, because that's the other thing. It's like, I wish that they would have explored their friendship more so that at least we as the audience understand why Derek has such an allegiance to this guy that just seems like he hates women in general, not just white women, but especially white women.

Yeah, yeah, but the movie glosses over that.

Yeah.

I feel like the way the Malachite character is handled is super messy, where it's like from it feels like the empathy that the movie has for him changes from scene to scene depending on what needs to happen in the scene, and so it just comes off super messy. Some of the lines he says are funny, such as that the black man's life madness in mayhem, and I was like, what the what.

This is the other thing? This is where sorry, go ahead, before I just put.

It that that was the end of that particular thought.

It just I almost sound like an angry, bitter black feminist, but like, you know what, actually they deserved each other because what big Black men will try to victimize themselves as much as white women will sometimes, And I'm just like, there, y'all go ahead. Not obviously I'm not talking about all black men are all all white women, because I gotta say it that because y'all be like, yeah, but truly must be a day ending and why when a black man says that's a black man's world madness and mayhem?

Right like they're all I just yeah, that friendship felt like under examined. I mean, which gets to something that I was feeling sort of throat the movie, where it's like, the movie has obviously an interest in Derek and in Chanel, but like not to the same extent that they're interested in Sarah.

So there's stuff that will.

Be introduced to us that kind of just goes away, or the movie's attitude kind of flip flops, because it seems like what's important to the movie is that Sarah's journey is on track and consistent, and so if things get a little sloppier to the characters around her, no big deal.

I have a question for y'all, do you know what the plot of say, the Last Dance to Is it the same thing where it's another white girl that goes into a black.

I've never seen it. I have no idea.

So my understanding is that it's a continuation of Sarah's story, although it's not played by Julia Stiles, so it's like, I think it's just Juilliard. Okay, wait, let me, I'm on the Wikipedia thing. Okay, so yes, she's a Juilliard. She's now played by Isabella Miko, who is in Coyote Ugly apparently.

Okay, Coyote Ugly.

Now, sorry, here's a sentence that jumped out at me. Oh no, I'm pretty sure she just gets a different black boyfriend at Juilliard.

During orientation.

On her first day at Juilliard, Sarah meets Miles Sultana, who takes her for a trombone player. When she what what, I don't know, she's air they're in not a ballet dancer.

Yes.

When she tells him she is there for ballet, he questions whether she is a ballerina. Sarah boldly states she's already a ballerina. She is there to become a came at ballerina. So she just dates another guy actually.

By Columbus Short.

Yeah, yes, of course it's Columbus Store. He was in all those dance movies. Okay, yeah, where is it him?

Is he in Stumpy Ard?

Yes? Okay, yeah, fucking love.

Stop the art, this whole decade of dance movies. You're just like, my god.

Let's have fun again. Bring back the dance movie.

Yah, let's right one.

Let's do a dance movie, my dream movie. Since you're a screenplay writer, I'm going to give you this idea and like, if it ever comes to fruition, I just want to be a little percentage. It's like an enemy's to lovers cheerleader rivalry where the two captains are you know, they're the femme girlies, but they're enemy teams and then they both end up at a gay conversion camp and have to break out together and that's how they become lovers.

Bring it on, but I'm a cheerleader, like pallidation.

That's so great. I'm not a writer.

I'm big ideas, but when it comes to sitting down and writing it, I'm like, girl, I don't know, this is hard.

Oh goodness, No, that sounds like a great story. But yeah, say the last dance to I haven't seen it. I can't really.

Say save the last dance to the streets Havannah Knight.

Now we've done them all, does anyone?

I guess? Havanah Knights is probably another example of that of like white girl goes into Spanish culture and learns how to dance. I haven't seen it though, so I don't know.

I love Dirty Dance and Cavena Nights. It was my introduction to Diego Luna.

He's the romantic lead in it, and a picture them now that was on heavy sleepover rotation. Unfortunately, Baby Diego Luna Bragg.

Does anyone have anything else they would like to talk about?

Oh gosh, I feel like we could keep talking for hours truly, I'm like, what is this movie?

Yeah? I was like, are there any other lines that I particularly thought were interesting?

I do think it's hilarious that Shaneil is like she, you know, dreams of going to fashion school and she like designs and like puts together all these outfits. But I'm like, are her outfits good? Because I feel like.

Yeah, they should have thought more about that. Not very they should have thought more about that, like just the way and I know she like styled her in the car and stuff and like did that quick change whatever? But yeah, they don't really like they give.

Yeah, we need more about that. We need more Shaneil. In general, it was like, I don't know enough about two thousand and one.

Well, I feel like I missed opportunity that I thought because we learn about Shanil and Derek's mom really late in the plot, Like it's presented as a twist that is not a twist, and it's like, why couldn't we have just learned this earlier. It's because the movie doesn't care about them the same way it cares about Sarah.

But that felt like.

Because and again, this is like a plot point that is like riddled with stereotypes. But their mom is absent. It's described that she's in jail quote for drugs ellipses, for things women do for drugs ellipses, And you're like, okay, but even if we're just taking the plot point that Sarah and Shanil's mother are both absent, they're not like that is like a chance for an opportunity, a chance to connect like something.

Early on, Yeah, I lost whatever. But also this is the part where I was like, ah, y'all should have let the black people leave because Mama Dean would have come around the corner and been like, yet them drugs the Reagan planet. You know.

Yeah, well to that point as far as like I'm not even sure why Shanil takes Sarah under her wing, like and then do Derek and Sarah have anything in common, aside from the fact that they've both read Capodi and have opinions on it that they read for class. I just it feels like another like undercooked romance where it's like, what do they like about each other?

Yeah, they have common.

Derek toes the line of being in his world, but also he wants to go to Georgetown, and he knows about Capodi and he's a black intellectual, so like there's a certain like he's classed differently than the people around him because of that intelligence and because of the way he can talk and how he can code switch and go back and forth. He doesn't really code switch that much, but like, you know, just like he's teeters that line I guess of being black but not Malachi or snooky black.

Right, So is the movie implying that because he is like quiet intellectual, then he like it makes sense for him to be with a white person.

Like I don't know if much I got the vibe of like less that and more like maybe it's a respectability thing of like, Okay, we want to show different depictions of black folks, so we have the nerdy black dudes for a quick second, but Derek is a black man that like anyone would want, not even just black women, but even a white girl would want. He's smart, he is driven, Like that's what she Neiel's talking about. She's like,

And I'm like, oh no, it's bleak. I will say to pay this movie a tiny little compliment, even though it doesn't handle anything thoughtfully that at this time, the early two thousands, very few movies featured an interracial relationship. We very rarely saw interracial kiss time with Jungle Fever.

And that was the eighties, which.

Fucking fever. I saw the Guard.

Yeah, sure, there are a few exactly nineties.

It was rare. It was pretty rare for a while. You got like one a decade.

Yeah, pretty much.

And like movies that maybe had almost like an implied interracial romance, such as like Men in Black where it's like Will Smith and then I forget the actor's name, but they don't kiss. There's no interracial kiss on screen in many cases.

So I was like, okay, bad boys as well.

I think, yeah, I feel like we had that same conversation yeah, on that episode as well. Point is that there was very little representation of inter racial relationships or like physical contact at this time. Not that it's necessarily a representation when as far as how that relationship plays out, but it is representation.

See the thing with representation, if there is more, more of it, just more of it. The clumsy versions that come through, they're not as big a deal, you know, like it's it's not as big a deal, say, the last dance is like, okay, cute whatever, But because there are so few and far between, and because if one doesn't do well immediately, it's like, well that's a wrap, you know. It's just like, yeah, let's just allow ourselves to make more bad depictions so that we can have enough.

And more pictures of it just like being normalized, rather than because like a lot of the discourse between the characters in this movie are characters discussing is this a good idea? Should interracial relationships happen? Whereas if it's more representation of just like two people who are in love and they're together and they happen to be an interracial couple, and that's just presented as a perfectly normal thing. Yeah, but we were getting very little of that at the time.

Are there any movies that y'all can think of, movies or TV shows that you can think of where they've had an interracial couple of like any mix that you've been like, Ah, this was a pretty interesting take.

I feel like I've pointed out different examples of this on various episodes. I can't even remember the movies anymore, but I know I've made the comment of like, oh, this is an interracial couple where no attention is brought to it. It's just presented as like a very normalized thing we covered.

I don't think that this is necessarily the best example. We covered something New last year and that that was another movie about interracial relationships that was a little all over the place.

But it's like, yeah, there you go, we haven't covered it yet.

But oh, Romeo must die. Listen, I'm not gonna lie. I fucking love rob Let's Die.

That's really brand Thank you, thank you, yep, yep.

I thought this was a safe space. I'm just looking up. Yeah, something new is on there a fellow.

Oh oh, I guess Brandy Cinderella. I guess that is cere.

Brandy Cinderella is the perfect example of that, because they really just let us pop into a fantasy world and have fun. I wish Predess would have done that from the beginning. Just do that, Just do that.

I feel like we see interracial couples in media more today than we used to, certainly, but at least in this era it is. I mean, but there were also other movies that featured interracial couples, in dance movies, specifically around yes this time, like it was a thing.

They're bringing two worlds together.

Exactly, and it always center as usually a white girl who's like learning tolerance and a little something about herself, and you're like, all right, that's the one.

Yeah, real quick. I wanted to point out there's that moment where Sarah is given the fake ID so that she can get into Steps, where at least fifty percent of the movie takes place. It seems they never go anywhere else, it's always Steps, And she's given this fake ID and Sarah sees the photo and she's like, oh, she's ugly. She's fat, oh girl, And that is just a thing that Sis said in the movie without being challenged, and that was pretty nasty.

She's twenty one.

Right, and see.

Yeah, there's I mean there's a lot of parts of this view I mean, or very of the era in just kind of like dismissive and weird ways.

It's an extremely two thousand and one movie.

Yeah, in any case, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

Uh? Yeah it does. Yeah.

I mean, you know that's the positive we can say.

That is just further proof that it's you know, it's one metric invented as a joke.

But it does. It does pass.

It does pass.

Yeah, at least between Sarah and Shaneil And then I also think between Sarah and her mom in the two seconds in this movie where she is alive, yes, where she's like, come on, and then her mom's like it's a florist emergency or fucking whatever.

Sure, also between Sarah and Nikki when they are yeah fighting. But yeah, it does pass. But what about our metric, the most important media metric ever conceived, the nipple scale zero to five nipples, and we raid it. Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist, lens I would not rate this movie highly.

The minute she said intersectional feminist, lens I was like, ooh, I gotta take off two more points.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So honestly, I mean it was a very two thousand and one attempt to examine something that the movie did not have the capacity to examine meaningfully at all, and based on how it's basically just a movie about a white girl who appropriates black culture, and any time that anyone calls her out or she's made to feel uncomfortable, the movie is just like, yeah, can't you sense how uncomfortable she is? And isn't that

And they can't.

She's doing her best. It's such a hard situation for her to be in, can't you see that? And it's just like, no, all of the framing around that is really quite silly. So I'll give it a half nipple for showing an interracial kiss in two thousand and one.

Yes, I thought I was mean I was gonna give it one point three nipples.

Oh, I mean, please unpack it.

But that's only because they employed more black people. That's literally it. Because black people were on the payroll.

A lot of people got a paycheck.

Yes, whether that paycheck was good is uh, but.

You know, I mean, based on Carrie Washington's anecdote about having to return to teaching after this movie because she couldn't quit her day job because what you would think would have been a role that should have paid the bills for a while, Uh didn't do that.

So oops, I'm gonna go one nipple.

I think, Yeah, this movie is not doing very much and I don't know, I don't think I have anything else to add to it. It's just like a movie with a predominantly black cast that still manages to be about a white woman. It's kind of like, holy shit, it's they really.

The bamboozled us. They it was deceptive.

Yeah, I got us also not for nothing, like I know what we are mostly.

Talking about the themes, the characters.

It's boring. This movie's boring. There's long stretches of it that I was bored.

And the dancing isn't fun to watch because it's.

No three D and step up two like the ship was like they were doing so they were dancing.

There's a reason I own Stomps the Yard on DVD. It is fun to match.

You admitting you own Stop Yard on DVD. You ow that movie DVD?

Probably when did it come out? Like two thousand seven.

So you have an old ooh wow.

I bought it in like as soon as it came out on DVD because I saw it in the theaters twice.

I don't know anybody else that had owes that movie, like just no one, not race or anything. I just don't know anyone that owes that movie or saw that movie twice in theaters.

I can't explain it.

I just listen. I spoke to love Romeo must Die so. And my favorite problematic movie is The Hot Chick. It is so.

Problem I have never seen it.

I have so much fun watching that movie.

It has come back kitties in The Hot Chicks.

Rachel McAdams one of her first movies. A young Ashley Simpson is in there as a little cameo.

Wow.

It's yeah.

Well anyway, there you have it. That's our save of the last Dance episode. Kadita, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute treat. Please come back us or please any movie I love, Coots or literally anything. Where can people check out your work? Follow you online? Plug away.

You can find me at Kadija dot bo on TikTok, Instagram. What's that other one? I don't go on X but I have one. You can find me on YouTube. Just look up Kadijimbo.

Yeah.

And if you want to check out some of the stuff that I'm doing that isn't online related, Operatica, the pole opera show that I'm producing. You know, the landing page just says coming soon, but the image is pretty cute, so check it out and follow the Instagram Operatica Events. That's O p e r A t I k A Events amazing.

Hell yeah, and if you can check us out on social media at Bechdelcast, you can go to our Matreon where again, rather than releasing this saved the last dance episode there, which was our original intention, we swapped it out for a burlesque episode, so you can.

Really pritch discussion going on over there as well as flash Dance. And that's five bucks a month for two new episodes every month and access to our entire back catalog. You can also get our birch over at teapublic dot com Slash the Bechdel Cast.

Woo.

And with that, let's go to our Juilliard audition. But be careful, don't get in a car because it's gonna crash.

Jesus, Bye Bye.

The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lickterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskrosenski. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast