On the Bechdecast. The questions asked if movies have.
Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, f and bast start changing it with the Bechdel cast.
Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlyn, I have a secret what. I wrote a story about a character named Jamie Loftus, and then we were like hosting a podcast together in my story. And then suddenly.
Bur Bonour, wow you're feel Wait Jesse, can you see Jamie? Oh wow your homage?
She shut them Kitleen, Oh shit them you too, bark bark anyway.
Hi. Wow. I panics because I was like, I know the bit I want to do, but I don't have the skills. I can't. I'm ill equipped, but I wrote and fringe we.
Anyway, Hi, this is the Bechdel Test. My name is Caitlin Dorante, my.
Name is Jamie Loftus, and I'm controlled by Caitlyn Dorante.
Mmm, sorry about it.
I frequently find that everything in my life changes. I have friends, I lose them. I'm on all fours, barking like a dog. I'm calling Caitlyn a genius non stop.
Yeah, thank you.
It's honestly kind of an incredible way to live. You know, the surrender of free will has its drawbacks, but you know she does let me go to sleep. Sometimes You're welcome. Thank you.
You're a genius, yes, I know. Anyway, this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point. But Jamie, my creation, what is it?
Well? The Bechdel Test is a media metric created originally by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace Test. A lot of versions of the test. The version we use is this one. We require that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names talking to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue in some sort of meaningful way. Can't really be more specific than that you know it
when you see it. So those are sort of our requirements. God, this is like such an interesting movie to talk about in regards to the Bechdel Test, because I feel like this movie came out in a stretch of time where the Bechdel Test was also frequently discussed, often in a way that I feel like it is no longer discussed now in a good way. I'm excited to talk about this movie same And we have a returning guest.
We sure do. Our guest is the senior editor at Vulture. He's the host of Good One podcast, and his book, entitled comedy Book Boom, is out on November seventh. It's Jesse David Fox.
Welcome back. Hello.
I was trying to think it if I know any words in French, and I don't. That's the word.
And a happy bonjor to you and happy book. Congratulations on the book.
Oh, thank you so much. Congratulations on your book.
Thank you. I was baiting you.
I made Jamie write that book. Isn't that a congratulation.
You wrote every word for her to sit down to.
Type to rewrite. Yes, You're welcome again.
Mister Haitlin did not want to eat a hot dog, and so they went really like four dy chest to find a way to get the book written. Welcome back. I realized as we were preparing for this episode, because we're covering Ruby Sparks twenty twelve, that on your first episode we also kind of did not a similar plot, but we did her with you years and years ago, and it's yet another movie about a.
Man that a writer creating a contra that he can control as a way of getting over an ex girlfriend that also was a failure because he tried to control that relationship.
Yeah. Yeah, Like he's the sort of guy I mean, I guess that they're still out there. I've met them. They're still around. They're kind of an unkillable mutant species. But it is interesting that these two movies. Yeah, they're a guy that's like, I couldn't be a bad person. I'm shy you.
It was the cultural zenith of that guy as hero that's shorthand for somewhat redeemable because it's this type of guy. Now, this movie, I think, not to get ahead of it, I'm trying to remember if this watching this movie helped me get over that part of myself that also thought that about like me that was like, well, I'm quiet, so I guess I'm nice. Or did this movie reinforce that feeling in me.
I'm really excited to talk to you about that because this movie is now eleven years old, and it's like we would have covered this movie very differently when this show started seven years ago.
Yeah, for sure, and by.
Differently, I mean worse because you grow in all that stuff. I'm so excited to talk about this movie. I was pleasantly surprised by how much it broke my brain. But Jesse, what is your history with this film?
I didn't see it in theaters, but I do believe I saw it soon after, but I can't totally remember when. But I do feel like this type of movie like Fox, Searchlight, rom Com Adjacent or whatever, was like my favorite type of movie, like Zoe Cazant's starring.
Movies directors of Little Miss Sunshine. You're like, yes, I'm listening. I'm listening.
Yes, all of this was like exactly my aesthetics. So I know I saw it. I assume like once it was on was streaming around that. I don't know how I saw it, but I know I saw it and then.
On demand or something disgusting.
And then I was like, I had a memory of this discourse around this and Zoe's sort of relationship to the termatic Pixie dream Girl. I remember reading an interview she said X and then I realized, oh, that was that interview I did with her where I asked her about like, now, how she feels because the creator of the termatic Pixie dream Girl regretted it, and then she was sort of the champion of how maybe the term, unlike the Bechdel test, was sort of like sloppily applied at the time.
Yes, and that's like I totally agree. I mean, you can't tell someone how to, you know, deal with their own word that they made popular, and like Nathan Raven is amazing, But it did feel like retracting it entirely was an overcorrection. It was just like, no, it's a thing, but just like not in every single case that someone says it is right, yes, right.
It became a way to fairly quickly disregard female performances and female characters so much so then if you then reject, you're like, well then are we Then we forgot The first point was to criticize a type of female character that this movie also was trying to criticize exactly. And then now we're back to partly the aesthetics of this character doesn't exist in the same way anymore, because like it was so associated with like certain types of haircuts and clothes.
My minit right, she's got the bangs, she's got the little cap sleeve dresses and you're like, yep, yep, we were there, we saw it.
Yeah, So because for your people have bangs, I don't know, like I don't know gen Z's relationship to this idea. Yeah, and it seems like it, if anything, it has like it's right for a resurgence, right. It is like not so removed from like girl Dinner or whatever.
Right. I think that this can like exist in conversation with I don't know what, like whatever every generation things that they've solved things and reinvented the wheel, and they never have and they never will. And that's just sort of my view on the state of things. And yeah, it's like gen Z has their version of these too. That will also be embarrassing to look back on ten years from now. I was thinking of Girl Dinner, Girl Math Girl, which is like something that I've sort of
let fly at different points as well. When there's that Christmas in a line of like you haven't written a woman, You've written a girl, And I'm like, and what do you mean by what you know?
What are you saying?
What side do you then take by saying that I am Switzerland.
I think let the girls do what they want. Let the girls do what they want.
That character makes some like very good points, and then he makes some very bad points throughout the movie. He's very inconsistent.
I mean, but that's kind of what I appreciated about him. I'm like, that seems like a guy that exists in the world where he's like, I love my wife so much, but I would change her if I could.
And you're like, yeah, he is a similar you know, insomuch as this movie's in conversation with like five hundred Days of Summer. He like is very much in the same ilk as like the DOOTI Er the more do characters of that movie. Yeah, he was like this version in that movie. They're both browier than the lead, but also like the conscience of the movie because in that movie is like I would give my wife bigger tits if I could, but in retrospect it wouldn't change anything, right.
But I love that broad Yeah, the chad conscience of the film.
So it is interesting to be like, is everything this character says ultimately the person we should be supporting there is? Yeah, because that line is the like philosophical thesis I guess of the movie.
I mean, yeah, way more so than anything Calvin e versus or for sure, I didn't make that connection. I also, I mean, this movie feels very much a cousin to five hundred Days of Summer. I haven't seen five hundred Days of Summer recently. Yeah, I mean I haven't really revisited it. But I was at Ikea with a man recently and was like, wow, is something bad about to happen to me?
Did you run around?
No, very intentionally stayed stills of behavior. I tried to really stay as still as possible and really like stay the path and get the plates I had come there for. Another similarity that this movie had with five Hundred Days the Summer is that I hate the last scene.
Yes, sure, very similar last seed?
Yeah?
Similar? Yes.
Oh.
I can't wait to talk about the ending of this movie and the rest of it. All right, James, what is your relationship with this movie?
Ruby Sparks, I had not seen this movie, and I didn't know a lot about it. I think that we were all there in the twenty tens Manic Pixie dream Girl mess of attempt to have a conversation, you know, which we were a part of, and like, I just never got to this movie because based off of like what I was catching from this conversation, it seemed like to me it was framed as a movie that was purpose trading these tropes as opposed to criticizing and interacting
with them. And I think that that just like stuck in my head. And also, to be fair, the marketing does not really do much to change your mind. I went back and watched the trailer as well as the original reviews of this movie, which I'm like, Zoe Cazan kind of a playing a game of forty chess there, because it's like everyone received this as like a quirky
what was the god? The Atlantic review Ruby sparks a charming tale of boy makes girl, and You're like, uh huh uh huh uh huh did they see the scene where he made her bark like a dog and call him a genius? Apparently they didn't. But yeah, I had avoided this movie because I thought it was a perpetrator and not a and I was really pleasantly surprised by
this movie. I really enjoyed it. I mean there's stuff about it that I would just love a rundown of what the studio notes were for this movie, because I feel like that last scene doesn't feel consistent with what is happening even minutes before. And I think Zoe Czanne is a terrific writer, and so I'm like, I just don't think she would do that. But there's a lot of cool stuff in this movie that I feel like I haven't seen done quite this well in other places.
I liked it, Caitlin, What's your History?
I also had never seen it, and I think I had a very similar experience as you, Jamie, as far as like people would talk about it all the time in a pretty critical way, and either I misunderstood what they were criticizing, or the people who were criticizing it misunderstood what the movie was. Either way, I also thought it was like, Wow, a classic example of a manic
pixie dream girl presented uncritically, and isn't that awesome? And so I also was just like, I don't really feel compelled to watch this, or again, I might have been misunderstanding what people were saying about it. Way, I'd never seen it, and so when I was watching it, I was like, wait a minute, the things I thought about this movie don't seem to be the things that are actually here in this movie. So I found it refreshing. In some ways, I found it challenging, Like I was like, wow,
what hang on? And I think I'm going to like be processing a lot of my thoughts about this movie in real time on this episode. But I was pleasantly surprised by it, especially going in with like pretty low expectations based on the buzz.
I do feel like if the ending was fused with a bit it would like do really well coming out right now. And also if the outfits were better.
Well, I think they were good for the time.
At the time, they were incredible.
Well honestly, that is like truly the most dating part of my life. So literally every single person I dated for like seven years stress like that. So I'm like, that's the feminine ideal of like what I imagine people should dress like, So I don't have a problem. He dressed terribly. He dressed also only in a tan and green. It was like such a clear director.
Stoy is he Shaggy from Scooby Doo.
He was serving Shaggy the whole movie, including on the poster.
But I do think the ending is even two years later or whenever, like inside Eama, Shumer became the most popular show on television. The studio notes would be like end. It's the exact opposite way, like we want this to be the most heavy handed ending possible.
Yeah, he would get hit by a eighteen wheel yeer a couple of years later.
Yeah.
This movie, I will say, proves a theory that I was recently revisiting, or at least Zoe Cuzam feels the same way because it is fiction. But that the moment someone becomes famous, they stop maturing forever, or at least stop maturing in some ways forever. Yeah, and that's Calvin to the core. He's behaving so nineteen, this entire movie in spite of being thirty.
Yeah, shall I do the recap and then we'll go from there.
Let's recap.
Oh wait, let's take a break first, and then we'll come back.
And we're back.
Okay, here is the recap. We open on a silhouetted image of a woman being like, there you are. I've been looking for you, tee. What why are you looking at me like that?
Zoe zan is he he hahi on the storm, Yes, I love it, And then Calvin Weirfields wakes up.
That's Paul Dano. He was having a dream about this woman. Calvin is a writer who ten years ago wrote an acclaimed novel when he was only nineteen, but he since has not been able to write much of anything.
I found these scenes triggering.
I was like, relatable much. We see him, like, you know, sitting down trying to write, but his writer's block is very intense, so we see him instead hanging out with his dog, Scottie. He hangs out with his brother Harry played by Chrismasina. Awesome baffling. How in what world are they brothers.
And grew up seemingly in California despite he seems so Midwestern and him the most New york Man.
Right. I've also read in like the original press tour, like both Paul Dana and Christmasina were like, We're aware we look nothing alike, but we enjoyed it. You're like, okay, okay, okay, boys.
So Calvin seems to not have much in the way of friends. He seems to struggle to meet and connect with people. He goes to a therapist, Elliott Gold. His name is doctor Rosenthal or something, but Elliott Gold is his therapist. He gives Calvin a little writing assignment to try to help him to start writing again, and the assignment is to write a page where someone meets Calvin's dog, Scottie and likes the dog for who he is, despite
him being skittish and slobbery. Then that night, Calvin has a dream about the same woman who we will come to know as Ruby Sparks.
I think their writing in this scene is so good because she's just like challenging him in such a movie way where I watched this movie back to back twice and watching that scene go back, where it's like I would have loved that exchange when I was in high school. I'm like, Wow, she's not like other girls. She's really
like given him, like she's a handful. But when you watch that scene back, like she's challenging him in the safest way possible, Like she's only ever allowed to challenge him in a way that is safe for him.
Also, she's not like other girls. She doesn't know who f Scott Fitzgerald is.
Yeah, and he gets to tell her for how acclaimed of an author is. The books around this movie are so they are like a teenager's collection of books.
Catcher in the Rye, Great Gats be like the stuff that you read because you're supposed you like are required to in high school.
Yeah, it really felt like James Franco novelist era unfortunately.
Which is also this time.
Yeah, yeah, it's true.
Anyway, So this dream woman meets and likes Scottie the Dog, and then Calvin wakes up from this dream suddenly very inspired by the woman, and he starts writing page after page about Ruby Sparks. He has his brother Harry read what he's written of this manuscript so far, and Harry basically tells him that Calvin does not understand women, and that he's like written a very like tropy manic pixie dreamgirl type and that no one is going to want to read this.
This Chad is a literary critic. He is absolutely killing it in this scene. We'll get back to how his wife is treated, because we are told a lot about her, even though we see her one time and she's like, why is this bra here? You're like, good job movie.
So he's a sports agent but able to like read and digest a short story in like a dinner with his brother.
I really, I actually really liked that choice. I like that it is not challenged. They're like, yeah, he's a bit of a reader when he's not managing sports?
Is it a It's also like they let the how you code the actors in your brain do so much work of filling out who these people are, Like, well, he's a Christmas an a type, so obviously he's a sport agent. You won't realize that until like way later in the movie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.
So, despite his brother's criticism, Calvin continues to fantasize about and write about Ruby, writing this story where she and a guy very much like himself down to like that character also being named Calvin, being so in love with each other. One day, as he is about to leave home for a meeting, a woman is suddenly in Calvin's kitchen, and this woman is Ruby Sparks, played by Zoe Kazan.
Ruby. Ruby what her most recent episode, I already brought up Shaggy. This is what I bring to the show.
I mean, well, Shaggy the dog more like Scottie the dog, who I think is the best character in the movie because he pisses on Calvin's bed and that makes him mask who he is.
Do you think that was inspired by Calvin and Hobbes or they guess the image of Oh no, I guess Calvin. Calvin is the one that peeces though.
Oh, because Calvin and Hobbes, Hobbes and Shaw. Anyway, think about it, you know.
Scotti and Calvin, we got there, Scotty and Calvin exactly.
The three most iconic duos of the last thirty years.
Yes, yes, it's all making sense.
Okay. So Ruby Sparks is in Calvin's kitchen and she appears to be a real life person who does not realize she is a figment of Calvin's imagination that has magically materialized, and he will not tell her that for a long time. Anyway, Calvin, he's freaking out. He thinks he's hallucinating, that he's like, you know, losing his mind, and Ruby is just like, what's wrong, babe? Is everything? Okay? So Calvin tries to sneak out of the house, but Ruby's like, where are you going? Can I come with you?
So she rides along with him, but then he ditches her because he's meeting up with this woman, Mabel played by Alia Shokut, who gave him her number at a book event. Because she's like kind of like this groupie type who's like trying to sleep with him, and he doesn't have any friends, so this is like the person
he called. They go out for coffee, but Ruby spots them and thinks Calvin is cheating on her, so Ruby starts to make a commotion and he figures no one else can hear or see Ruby, but everyone around him is like, yes, I can see this woman. So Ruby is real in the sense that she now exists in the world and everyone can see her, and Calvin is like, Wow, I have a real life girlfriend. Now awesome, And then we get this montage of like them being in love.
They're going to a zombie film festival at the Hall would Forever Cemetery. They're going to an arcade.
Like attempt at the IKEA scene.
Yeah, yeah, they do run through. Is it a video game place?
Yea, sort of like an arcade.
Yeah, it is a pitch perfect. This part of this movie is those movies, and at this point you're watching a probably like, oh, I guess it's just like another one of those movies. If you didn't know that this was making fun of that, you'd just be like, Oh, I guess we're just going to do that, And I haven't seen that for a while.
So involuntarily like Regina Spector starts playing in the back of your head and you're like, no, no, I didn't consent to this, right.
So then Calvin tells his brother how Ruby is real now, and Harry is like, that's not possible. Talk to your therapist because you've lost your mind. But then Calvin introduces Harry to Ruby. Harry still thinks it's some kind of hoax, like maybe she's an impostor who's trying to trick Calvin. So Harry tells Calvin to write something about her and if it comes true, then they'll know that this real.
So Calvin writes that Ruby speaks fluent French, and then suddenly Ruby is speaking fluent French, and Harry is like, wow, this is awesome. You can make her do anything you want. You can give her huge titties, you can you know, change her.
And sleep where he's really going, leaning into the sports agent side of his character.
Not the sympathetic brothers like you need more therapy. But now he's like, well, now that I know you're okay, immediately my second order.
And don't give blow jobs after a couple months. That scene, I mean, it's a low for that character, but again, very rewatchable scene where Calvin is like, I wouldn't change a hair in Ruby's head. She's amazing.
I love for Can I ask since I've seen this before, so I knew where it was going at that moment, were you both still being like maybe fuck this movie? Like maybe this movie is doing.
Is I couldn't tell.
Yeah, cool because like rewatching that's the first time, like my stomach starts hurting or whatever, or like or you're just like, don't do this. These people like be different people already.
I do know that I was still very on the fence at that point in the movie. But I think that, like Paul Dano's performance is really good because on the second watch, I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't think I believed him the first time. The way that he says it.
It's like, I think, honestly where I was like, maybe this movie is interesting and good because when I saw it was written by Zoe kuzannam okay, okay, promising, And then when he first calls his ex girlfriend a slut in therapy, I'm like, yeah, maybe this movie is going to be which if you haven't seen this movie, that sounds like a very bizarre comment to be like, maybe this movie rules, but like it's to show the like sympathetic, like tortured artist writer character and then have him say
something awful early on in a way that, like, even in twenty twelve, you would be like, well, that's an obviously cruel thing to say about someone. This person lacks introspection, I would get.
Yeah. I think where I was was because we've seen him say pretty nasty things about women before this, and then the way he just describes and characterizes Ruby. I was like, oh, he's a shitty person, yeah, and he does not respect when when.
He gives her the backstory, Oh, we'll talk about it.
Yeah, yes. But I was like, oh, I bet he is going to try to change and manipulate Ruby, especially because he doesn't tell her right away that she's a figment of his imagination. But I wasn't sure. Well, I wasn't sure if the movie was going to be critical of his behavior or just be like here it is, isn't this squirky? So at that point I wasn't sure where was going to go.
Also, like the language, especially twenty twelve, especially to a male audience member, You're like, yeah, that's how guys talk or whatever, like what do you even note? Like the subtlety of it is even more subtle than where I guess guys more frequently called women's sluts, not necessarily as a pejorative, but like clearly Zoe knew, Like you see it now, they're like, oh, this is actually she was giving bread crumbs. I guess in the first act.
Yeah, it's such a rewatchable movie. It's so cool where it's like, yeah, there are the big obvious things where you're like, oh, I don't I don't like this guy. But I didn't even realize all of the clues that they leave behind of like what a piece of shitty is? Just like in real life, what.
A treat mister snowman? I gave you all the clue or what is plan? I gave you all the clues?
That's from the Snowman. Some man was a guy, right, but was a snowman?
Refer to our Matreon episode about truly my Memory.
I'm like many Black Mind wipes after every episode.
I don't know why did.
I don't know why we did.
I don't know why we covered that, but I think it was just like.
Lockdown and let's do something amazing. Cool, Let's bring joy to the okay to the world.
Okay. So well, Harry is like, wow, you can change her and make her do whatever you want, and Calvin's like, no, I'm never going to write about her again, and he locks his manuscript away in a drawer. But after some time, Calvin starts to realize that Ruby isn't this idealized version of a woman who he fictionalized, that she's a real person who has free will. She isn't at his beck and call all the time, you know, sometimes she's too
tired for sex. She wants to get a job at a coffee shop so that she doesn't have to be financially dependent on him.
The way that he reacts to her wanting a job by being like, look over here, this thing I just said no to you can have it. Now, shut up about getting a job. And you're like, oh, no, what year is a oh? And that's howats all women?
Mm hm. And then Ruby is also starting to realize that Calvin is a pretty shitty boyfriend and person, especially after they go to this trip to visit calvin mom played by Annette Benning and her husband Antonio benderis where the whole time, Calvin is being just like kind of mean, and he's very stubborn. He's no fun to be around. He's disrespectful, and Ruby calls him out for it, and she also tells him that she's lonely. She wants to
make friends. She wants to take an art class and spend a few nights at her own apartment each week. So she's, you know, trying to establish healthy boundaries. And he does not like this. He gets more and more insecure. He cannot deal with her being her own person.
He doesn't want her to have friends.
Mm hmm. And one night, when she's out with her friends from her class, he takes the manuscript that he was writing about Ruby. He takes it back out of the drawer and writes Ruby was miserable without Calvin. And then he immediately gets a call from Ruby saying I want to come home. And then she becomes cartoonishly clingy, and codependence.
Gets do some acting. It's a big yes.
It's so good in the yes, yeah, yep, which he starts to feel suffocated by this clinginess, so then he types another sentence that Ruby is filled with effervescent joy, and then she becomes cartoonishly and annoyingly joyous.
Annoying to him, I think this is I think it's very cute to.
Those it's everything but the like being woken up by a baby deer kind of thing.
And now he's concerned that she's only happy because he wrote her to be happy, but he wants to be able to make her organically value concern, so then he writes Ruby was just Ruby happy or sad however she felt, and now it seems like she's experiencing mood swings and that she doesn't really have control over her own emotions, and he's trying to make her feel better. He's like,
let's go to this book party. And they go to this party hosted by another writer played by Steve Coogan who tries to come on to Ruby, and then Calvin catches them together in a swimming pool when they're in their underwear, so Calvin freaks out and brings her home. There's a whole interaction also between Calvin and his ex girlfriend Lyla at this party. We'll talk about that later, but at home, Calvin is like, Ruby, you embarrassed me.
You're supposed to be my girlfriend, so act like it, and they have this whole argument that will unpack later, but basically, she's like, you don't get to decide what I do and what I don't do, Like I'm my own person. And he's like, you want to bet because I can make you do whatever I want. And she's like, what.
This scene is brutal, absolute hard to watch.
I measure writing it for yourself to do with yours. She Ruby sparks herself.
Kill you guys, what are you doing?
Yeah? Really wild? But Calvin goes to his typewriter and there's a whole scene that plays out like a horror movie where he types a bunch of stuff and makes her do things and prevents her from doing other things, such as leaving, to show her that she is his creation, and she's obviously horrified and betrayed and she's sobbing. And then when she finally has the opportunity, she runs away.
And then Calvin, I guess, realizing that he shouldn't have done all that stuff, returns to his typewriter and writes as soon as Ruby left the house, the past released her. She was no longer Calvin's creation. She was free, and he is devastated that she's gone, But again he is like it was the right thing to do, and we're like duh. And then the movie ends with Calvin turning this story that just unfolded into a new novel. The
novel gets published, people read it, they love it. And then one day Calvin is walking Scottie the dog in the park and Scotty runs over.
The same scene where it's like sort of a Frankenstein of yeah, kind of eternal Sunshine and the end of five hundred Days of Summer.
Yeah, where Scotty runs over to Ruby, who does not recognize Calvin or remember anything about their relationship since he had like released her from the past, And then they start chatting and it's implied that they're going to reconnect and possibly like get together. The end run the other way truly. So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll be back to discuss, and we're back. Okay, we start?
Where can we start?
Where can we start?
I don't know.
Again. I was expecting something very different based on the comments and criticism I had heard about this movie in years past, and was surprised to learn that it is like to some extent, an indictment of the type of like misogynist man who is not capable of a relationship with a real human woman because he projects some fantasy or ideal onto her. Then he resents her.
Movie that we've covered with Jesse before.
What a man falling in love with falt some one who's not a real woman.
Yeah, their idea of who they are.
Yeah, And then resents when she cannot live up to his like projection or idealized version of her, and he resents that she has free will, and which is very abusive along the way.
The core of this movie is he hates that his girlfriends have free will. Unfortunate.
Yes, yeah, it's sort of my main problem with the movie, not philosophically, but sort of, Well, the ending is a whole other thing, but like they spend so much time with him trying to prove that he's not going crazy that it then underlines the sort of like magic of it where I feel like if he accepted that she exists, his actions would feel less because of the magical concept and more because of his behavior, you know what I mean.
Like it sometimes I feel like it's supposed to be ambiguous if he's making decisions, because like, well, you can't have a job, you don't have a social security number, you're a fake person or whatever. Yeah, But I only am thinking that because they spend so much time, and that seems like such a studio thing, being like, no one's gonna believe this. You have to have three different characters verified, right, And I think that's partly like first
time screenwriter getting to make a movie. She can't be like nine million movies do. Like every single Woody Allen movie literally does this where they're just like, some magical thing happens and they don't have to prove it. And I think this is all to say. I do think it obscures the like, oh, I'm watching a rom com, like a magical rom com quality to it, because you're like, oh,
it's a magical rom com where this thing happens. I guess it's also how he's able to justify why this is a book at the end of it.
Also, I feel like setting up the therapist character and then having him not included for the vast majority of the movie. I'm like, he has to find out like if that's gonna be the thrust, like or maybe don't include that character. I don't know. I was confused about.
I also thought he's a really well written, therapist and really well performed. He goes can it be bad and goes, I'd like for it to be very bad. I was like, everything about that seed is perfectly and then he's just gone, Yeah.
I saw a piece in Collider a couple of years ago in twenty and twenty one ever heard of it by Tony Oysen, which you know it's I had this thought as I was watching, and I think that this is maybe a trapping of current film criticism where you're like, this movie is actually a horror movie. Everything about that, Yeah, But I do think that this writer kind of unpacked that pretty well, and save for the ending, the movie kind of plays out that way in a way that
feels mostly intentional. But I've seen this. I've seen this movie characterize so many different ways in different like i've seen a characterize, and I think the way that we're going to be coming at it today where this is like a I think, like such a well done sort of takedown of this like stock character that viewers in twenty twelve weren't even prepared and like did not maybe
get it. I also described when it came out as more of a commentary on like the beginning of a relationship versus the difficult reality of actually being with someone, which I feel like is referenced more in the relationship between the brothers of Like, No, she's a person, and like, things will not be amazing every day and it's not going to be like dick sucking city. That's not how a relationship works, and he's like, I'm sure, sure, Christmas, Na,
I'm not gonna get my like anyways. So there's that read of it as well, and I've seen Zoe xand speak to both parts of it, so I just want to acknowledge that, but I am more interested in what
we're talking about. You're like, yeah, relationships are hard, But I feel like that would play out if the story wasn't so based in control of one over the other, because it's like, I think that you can have that discussion in a very like surface sense, but it only applies to this couple so far, because it's like he is ge peddling the shit out of her the entire Like she can barely participate in their relationship because of the controls that are the reason that she's even there.
So I don't know. Yeah, that rate of it didn't hit for me as much.
If anything, I feel like it uses that theme as a sort of like trojan horse for like the actual like satirical point is making, right, Like I think that's essentially like what five Hundred Days of Summer is about, right, Like, insomuch as five hundred Days of Summer does not feel like this movie at all, even though like that is essentially the point of five hundred Day Summer is that because by the she barks like a dog part, you're like, oh, holy shit, like that scene a shot like a horror film.
You can see a version of this with a different third act that become like a Black Mirror episode, like if it's like really heavy handed, but instead it's sort of like just subtle enough that essentially I think it makes it a much more like graceful critique, but also I guess can make it so dumb people or people who are not prone no, not you, like I'm just
a magic male critics being like what an interesting rom com? Right, So it's like and I do think that's like always the sort of problem with satire where either like I'm gonna be so heavy handed that it's so annoying, right like most Black Mirror episodes, or do it like this, which is like, oh, it can kind of trick certain people into being like, oh, I thought I was going to rom com. I now realize my title understanding of dating is wrong.
Right. I don't like the last scene, but I feel like if it was maybe played a little bit different, it could have that black mirror quality to it, and I like mileage definitely varies on that. But the idea that, for whatever reason I don't understand the magical rules of this universe that Mine in Black wipes Ruby's memories the way that it does every time I press stop on
my zoom recorder. But like the fact that she could be much like Clementine and Joel in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, she could be stuck in this loop of having to like be with this nightmare of a person who is incapable of growth forever question mark. But I don't think that that's what the last thing's trying to say. I think there's a read of it that you're like, oh, she's trapped, She's trapped, and that is the ending of a horror movie that is final destination.
Right, But no, I think the ending is actually like the studio being like this needs a happier, more uplifting ending, So let's have it so that he meets her again and now he's a redeemed man. And even though he was so abusive to her prior to this, he redeemed himself because he apologized in the book that he wrote about and it is.
Actively Yeah, the thing he's actively profiting from and will buy a second house with good for him and we it's.
I don't understand what narrative thrust we're supposed to believe earned any sort of redemption.
So glad narrative thrust is he's really been getting into the word therust recently, and just even the tacit support of it, it makes me physically ill. No, I agree, And I think that like a different version of this again, it's like the two movies that it feels like that last scene are influenced by. It's not completely dissimilar from the end of Eternal Sunshine, except you do get the
clear feeling from Eternal Sunshine that their relationship will fail again. Yeah, it will fail for the same reasons, and they are agreeing that they're going to do it anyways. Where it's like Ruby again, she is just like she has no autonomy, she has none of the information, and so she is like doomed to be because it's like, what is he going to do in this happy version ending? Is he going to not tell her again? Yeah, it seems like it's about to happen.
You won't know.
Yeah, that's a fix for now. I'm like if he literally if the movie cuts with him being like, I have to tell you something.
Then that's interesting. Ooh. I kind of like, yeah, very would have to change and then you're like, oh, this was kind of a horror movie because I think Calvin is a really I mean, he's despicable, he's the worst, but he's a really interesting, like well written character where he is saying stuff at the beginning of the movie, like he has that line girls aren't interested in me, They're interested in some idea of me, which is basically
identical to something Clementine says in Eternal Sunshine, and he does mean that he is worried about it. Seems like part of the reason he's reclusive is because he's insecure about his work, obviously based on his past relationship, and he's worried about being I guess in he feels the reason he's not in a relationship is because he's afraid that they will want mister cool literary guy and not who he actually is. Problem being he has no idea who he actually is and has no interest.
Well that, And it's like, I think this movie is like kind of commenting on the hypocrisy of this exactly because Ruby says that exact thing later, right, His concern is I want someone who wants me for me, not some idea of me, And then all he wants is his idea of what a girlfriend should be.
Yeah, which is like, I just think it's so well because I didn't catch that on the I mean, you can't really if you don't know what's going to happen. That line feels kind of innocuous in the first viewing, but on the second viewing and you're like, damn, she's good, she got my ass good. And that scene is doubled down on when his relationship with Lila is clarified at
that party, being as vague as possible. I have a friend who went through something like that not too long ago, where everyone's version of their breakup is going to be different and never completely objectively accurate. Impossible to have an
objective experience of that. But similar to how like Calvin chose the element of the breakup that was painful for him, because of course, getting broken up with after your parent has recently died would be painful for anyone that's disorienting, but chooses the one th that requires no self examination on his part to blame the entire failure of their relationship. We're removing contexts of years of when his father was
alive and he was a piece of shit. And I don't know, I mean, I think that that is like a pretty common thing that you see in breakups that doesn't really know a gender in how it's perpetrated. But I see men do it a lot.
Yeah, And I really liked that inclusion of that scene with him and Lila at the party toward the end of the movie, because again, the only context we have up until that point was she broke up with him shortly after his father died. He calls her a heartless slut. She I think was his only past relationship they were together for five years. Other than that, we don't know anything.
And then we get her side of the story, and I'm like fully on board with I'm like, yes, I believe everything you're saying lie.
And she also acknowledges that it hurt that she chose the moment to break up with him that she did, but also that that doesn't mean that she was wrong or needs to regret it, and like having that full messiness acknowledged. And also it's so clear that like, yeah, he couldn't love her for who she is, and when she started to want things outside of their relationship, he couldn't handle it.
He couldn't handle it. He couldn't handle that she was also an aspiring novelist, Like he felt very threatened and was making progress, right, he begrudgingly helped her in her career, but again he just like didn't want her to be more successful than him or anything like that. Yeah, she says, like, you weren't curious about me. You just had this image of who I was, and anything I did that contradicted it you just ignored. And this is exactly what he
does to Ruby. And we're like, yeah, okay, mister pattern of behavior, Oh.
God is ask Kathan.
I also think, I mean, part of the reason I think the character works and that you allow yourself to sort of be surprised or tricked or whatever. By the movie is that, like Zoe seems empathetic to like writers and this character as a writer. And I do think it's from a few things. One, it's like our parents are famously writers. She comes from a very famous all
the way, all the ways down nepo baby. But also like she is dealing with like how she is perceived in Hollywood or whatever, Like she understands that she grew up in Hollywood, so she knows different types of people. And I do think there's a deep understanding of this person's psychology that's not just like a sensitive misogynist. It's just like a cartoon villain's like there you.
Ever heard that turn of phrase before? What a scary phrase, But.
It just like clearly she's like, oh, I know how the wheels of this person's brain work to make them the victim of all situations, and like how good they are. It's almost like because these people are writers, their ability to create the other person in relationships is like heightened. And because the aracters were written as writers, it makes sense as well. You're like, well, like it makes sense that he would make up fake people in real relationships
and fake relationships. He's a writer. That's what he does, and I think that allows it to not just be you know, a black Mirror episode or whatever, where it's like it's just an idea of a person and you just project nothing. It's honest, Like Paul Dano is not a blank vessel. He's like a very specifically written person. She wrote it for him, and.
Also like cool with Paul Dano to like take that on, and I think, like, do it really thoughtfully. I can't imagine shooting that scene with someone I'd been in a relationship with for five years. But then I can't imagine being in a relationship for five years, so it's complicated. Yeah, there are other parts of the second If you watch this movie, unfortunately you do have to watch it again soon after because it is just like a very rewarding rewatch.
I think that another element of his character that resonated for me and felt familiar perhaps was that Calvin has this very juvenile again, just like the amount of guardrails that this guy has set up to resist any introspection or self reflection. It's like the corn Mazon signs, Like it's unbelievable how he's done this, and he has this you know core belief that like women don't like him.
He also has a very clear idea of what constitutes a bad guy and a bad partner, and he repeats it over and over in a way that is like it reminds me of like tropes we've talked about in the past, Katling, where it's like patriarchy, the guy where you're just like the most like he's like, kicks the door down, pulls someone's hair, and is like, I don't
think women should vote. And then any other man in the room, because this guy has behaved so terribly, is given like narrative impunity to act in more subtly misogynistic ways because there is this blowhard and the way that he describes I mean, the two things that stick out to me is like the where he's imagining Ruby before she crosses into the real world, where she's like, I usually date guys that are kind of like shitty to me. And then he says why would you date a guy
like that? Which is always what the guy who was about to do that says immediately before he starts doing it. Bone chilling interaction to watch. And then I think the choices that he makes to flesh out her character is also very telling of how he views himself to be not like other guys, which is, yeah, we talked about not like other girls all the time, but he clearly thinks he is like different from all these other men. And also, what was this book he wrote when he
was nineteen about? Because this writing is stinky. She's twenty six from Dayton, Ohio. Her first crushes are Humphrey Bogart and John Lennon, kicked out of high school for He also projects a story of child sex abuse onto her to romanticize her.
And make it like it was her fault.
There is like a romantic lark that she took when she was a child.
Yeah, right, he says this.
At one point, She's like, I'm a mess, and he's like, I love that you're a mess. But he doesn't. He like loves The parts of her messiness that he finds charming are like waighs in for him to control her of like she doesn't know how to pay her bills. Well, that's the way for me to control her. Little things that he enjoys doing. But when it comes to actually being a person he does, I don't know. It's all planted, really really thoughtfully.
Yeah, it's like he only likes the part of her that's like, instead of kissing, she jumps into a pool with her clothes.
Right, I'm shy, but.
That scene where she's the sort of character breakdown scene does feel like literally a note for note five hundred days a summer thing, because I do feel like that movie uses dating an older man as a way of showing like she's sort of like on particular, it's so hard to understand like what those writers were thinking, where it's clear Zoe was thinking, this is what those guys think is like cool or whatever exactly.
It's like I know that Zoe Kauzanne rejects the calling of Ruby Sparks the character a manic pixie dream girl, and I tend to agree, like this movie isn't putting out that character as like, here's a story about a manic pixie dream girl. It's an indictment of that trope. But the character that he develops in this list of characteristics, he's like, I think, rattling off to his therapist toward
the beginning, he has developed a manic pixie dream girl. Yeah, and then when she turns out to not be that and be a much more like nuanced and complex person. He doesn't know how to interact or deal with that. And then again, like Harry, his brother, who is somehow like a genius in literary criticism, and his inconsistencies are I don't know what to make of them exactly, but he's just.
Willing to give it a pass just because it's like, I do feel like there's I mean, not so cartoonishly so, but I do feel like there's people like that out there who like, are essentially good partners in their actions, but also talk shit about their partners in a way that can be ugly.
Let me just list a few things he says, and they're almost all in one conversation, but it's in the car, no, when they're like sitting by the pool. Oh oh, okay, write the manuscript. So he's, well, there's that. The car is pret because that's all. So he says, like, okay, who reads love stories women? And it was like, okay, reductive. But then he's like, but women aren't going to want to read this because quirky, messy women whose problems only
make them endearing are not real. He's like, women will see right through this, and you've written a shitty character and he says, like the honeymoon phase thing doesn't last. Women are different up closes, he starts talking about his own relationship, and then he says some weird things because he's like, I love Susie, my wife, his wife, but she's a weirdo. For example, sometimes she's me as fuck for no reason. You're like, okay, sir, let's.
Like recalibrate our definition of weirdo here because I'm not understanding.
And also, is she mean as fuck or are you just a dipshit who's like not a great partner and she's calling you out for it? I don't know.
I do think that line makes the most sense of like other things he says is too sophisticated, but that feels like actually his best way of being like both
empathetic to his wife but also unable to understand. Yeah why right, So he's like, women are complicated, like my wife confuses me all the time, right, And you're like, well, at least he understands that they're not only projections, but like he should not hypothetically be sophisticated enough to be like and that's because women are three dimensional, you know, Like he's not like a media studies professor. Right, so it's like he's a sports agent of course, which you
don't know that. But so that line I thought was like exactly, I think what I can magine that read a level.
Of emotional intelligence they would be capable of.
I also think part of the problem is there's so few characters in this movie. Yeah, that like ultimately characters have to carry weight beyond their roles because you're like, it's only like three actors.
Yeah, and then there's like little they're like, we have Antonio Banderas for thirty six hours have fun data. He's gonna make a chair, very magic mic of him to do. Oh my gosh, yeah's magic micing. But I do like his version of like a homemade better than chair better. But also it looks like a prop from the Blair Witch Project, though I don't know. Before we hop back, I just I wanted to take a moment for Susie
because we are sort of talking about her. Yes, here's Susie Corner there felt to me like and speaking to yours just saying Jesse, like the fact that she just does not get a lot of screen time at all. I think she's talked about more than we actually see her talking, which to me kind of undercut. But what that's I think, like, really the main weakness of this movie for me is I wish that, But it depends on who you view to be the main character of this movie. I do wish that we got more moments
with women. I think it would have been cool if we got more moments with Ruby and women, because I think that not to be gender prescriptive, but people who have been in bad relationships can smell it on you a little bit, and it would have been cool to see her have an interaction with someone who is like, things don't feel quite right. I think it would have been cool to give Ruby some sort of friend or ally to like help her tease out like I don't know.
That undercuts the moment where she's completely shocked. But also no person she would meet in the world would be like, I know what's happening. Paul Dano writes down what you do and that's why you can speak French now, But just like someone for her to process that confusion would have been cool, and Susie would have been an interesting character to maybe be that person. But we don't know anything about her. We know that she's a weirdo and
maybe she's mean, but also maybe she's not. We don't know enough about her to even get a read on what the reality of that would be. And then also she almost left him once. Hmm, I forgot about that part, which I think is a cool detail. But again, if you don't know the character is just like, well, she's just sort of like plot meat. This is kind of how she's treated.
And she's I think the only person of color with any significant speaking lines. But again she's also not one of the least developed characters and yeah, not significant.
Well it's like I guess alia. That's why I thought, like if I read the script and somehow had this ability to give Zoe a nome and Fleishman in Trouble did not exist already, but yet time how I knew it. It's like it'd be so useful if the third act switch perspective, because like now, it's like, what does a person with no memory of anything but a personality and a history, how do they become a person? That would be interesting, that's not the movie was trying to make
a comment on people like Paul Dano or whatever. And I imagine also, who knows if the duty was like, well, got to follow the protagonist, which is mister man Paul Dano. Ruby Sparks is a manifestation for him to like grow up. It did feel like a very that time, where like that's the only plot a man could do, which is like, I mean, it's literally exactly what happened with five hundred
days summer. Even though it is making fun of five hundred days a summer, the plot still follows that way, even beyond when it's like useful for us as the viewer, Yeah.
I mean any sort of perspective shift, even if it doesn't do the hard fleshman is in trouble thing. To see Ruby in a scene without Calvin, I think would have been useful, and I don't think would have necessarily challenged the reality of the movie we're in already.
Does she have a scene where she talks to his mom?
I can't remember, not really one on one, I don't say sure, ooh, now I need to watch the third time.
I'm pretty sure that we outside of when she's like calling him from a bar, I don't know that we ever see a scene where they're not together, because she I think recaps a conversation she had with his mom to him. I'm pretty sure that that's how we find out about.
That, because can you imagine that scene, which would in Solva Bechdel problem but like still would be like she goes like look my boys, blah blah blah, you know,
like something. You can imagine that scene where like she knows that both her sons have these sort of like problems with women, but like something, something, something, at least that would be like, what is Annette Benning's perspective on any of these things happening other than she has a nice plant and like it's cool to be married to Antonio Benderis, whose character's name is mort not remember.
Yeah that, Like again, I really really like Zoeka Is in I think she's like some of our s tier nepotism, I really do, but I do like I thought the mom character again kind of like a missed opportunity and felt very like I've seen this character a million times, like Polo mom to Woo Woo mom, unless that's like her being This is a clear rom com stock character that we've seen before, so I don't know, I'd be curious,
like what the reasoning was. I understand that like on the rewatch Calvin's reaction to his own mother is a huge red flag and very very self involved, where he clearly is unwilling to accept a version of his mother that is not comforting and familiar to him, which is
how he treats women in general. I think it's interesting that there is I don't really know what the timeline is, but there is like an undercurrent of like Calvin very likely has not processed grieving for his father and is projecting that onto his mom, certainly more so than his brother, who he sees all the time. It seems like he avoids his mom and judges her for being in love again. And I think we're led to believe embracing a truer
version of herself. Yeah, but like I wish that they used her more.
It's interesting because now that you talk about it from the respective of grief, right, So he's like essentially, as we said, like he's nineteen and never stays nineteen, and then like he responds like a kids dad died, and then he resents people who respond like a grown up whose partner died or whatever. And it's like that scene with him and the bunny or whatever in the therapist's office where he's like, not only does he need a
bunny to comfort him or whatever? He then is like jealous that maybe someone else, right, and that is like how does sort of his grief and need to be comfort and his possessative interact with each other. And you see it all from that scene, right, you just wouldn't
think of it. Right at that scene, You're like, Oh, he's a quirky boy and he's gonna beet a quirky girl, and this is gonna be like and there is a thing where his characters only referred to as a boy, like they're all girls and boys, so there is something where like, oh, of course a boy wants a girl, right, Like follow.
It up on when Christmasina is like, you haven't written a woman, You've written a girl. Kind of clarifies maybe what that means, even though I'm like justice for girls. But yeah, like I'm starting to I'm like, is this
the most genius movie of all time? Because I also think you see early indicates of the type of person he is in the way that he treats his dog, where first of all, he I think it's no mistake that he later makes Ruby act like his dog, but it's a really early conversation between him and his therapist that seems kind of innocuous, but it's like he wants to have a dog because he wants to have fun with his dog. But every time we see that he needs to take care of his dog, he's annoyed. He
doesn't want to do it. He wants to offfload the difficult part of having a dog to someone else, and that's really depressing because it's like he views women as dogs and that he also doesn't want to care to the difficult parts of a human relationship.
And he wanted the dog so that there would be this kind of built in excuse for people to stop and pet the dog, and then he'd meet people, because he seems to struggle meeting with people and connecting with people, but he's never like looked into why that is.
Or they're like, I can't criticize someone for getting a pet to feel more connected to the world.
No, I'm not criticizing, but.
Totally like it's like another indication of like he will do backflips to avoid self reflection.
You know what's an interesting example like the Alia Shotcat scene, which is so he's at first you're like he's using this person. But even when she's like we're gonna have sex, he's like he spits out a drink, like it's almost like, oh, no, I was using you just for this one thing of like getting a bearings of reality. I don't I'm not even using you in the way you think I'm trying to use you. And he can't even control he doesn't even like that, and but that also then reaffirms he
does that. He goes, I'm a good guy. I'm just using this human being as a way of getting a grip with reality. I'm not using her to have sex. That's like what bad guys do. And you're like, but she wants to have sex, he.
Doesn't get it. Yeah, And it's like, by his own description of women up to this point, we know that he is judging her severely for wanting to have sex with him in spite of not knowing him very well, which is like she clearly doesn't give a shit, but it's like he's judging her for that, and yeah, he says to her, he's like, I don't want that. Like he basically says like, I'm not using you for anything, And I think he believes that scary, bone chilling.
Yeah, truly a conversation that I felt really like, damn, this is well written, and this is very emblematic of the type of emotional abuse that this type of guy inflicts on people. Is the scene right after they've returned from that party where she got in the pool and she says, you have all these rules and you don't tell me what they are until I've broken one, and then you get to be disappointed in me. And he says like, here are my rules. Don't fuck other men
and don't let them think about fucking you. And she's like, okay, so what now I'm responsible for what other people are thinking? And he's like, yeah, when you act a certain way, it leads people on. When you take off your clothes at a party, it makes people think you're a slut. And I'd prefer if you didn't do that. Is that clear enough?
Were you?
And it's just like Wow, everything about how he is in a relationship, his controlling, this, his possessiveness, his condescension, it's like all just right there on display in a way that felt like very authentic to how that type of abuse plays out.
And I was just like, damn, yeah, well.
It's also like how a guy like that uses quirkiness as like a sort of shield or whatever, which is like by sort of like being lighthearted, he doesn't have to like actually reveal what he's actually thinking the entire time, right, So it's like hypothetically this entire time he's mad at her or resents her, or it is like he creates her, and he's like you dressed. You can imagine him being like you dressed like a slud even though he described how I didn't even think of that.
Yeah.
But then he's like finally where he's like pushed, You're like, oh, you've been all of these thoughts have been locked and loaded. And a worse movie would like somewhat like Frankenstein. It right, it's like you're my creation. But because the movie is like ridden more in defense of Frankenstein, Conder's just acting as Frankenstein would frank Stein's monster, not frank Stein and
doctor Frankstein. I would just be so fascinated to have a brain of a person who was really on board with Paul Daniel's characters in the entire time, and then that happens, and does that person go, yes, she is wrong, she shouldn't sleep with that guy where that scene seems to be like, this is why a character would do this, because it's almost like, I think, what's interesting about this movie.
It's like it's about human relationships, but it's also like a media critique, right, but it doesn't feel just like a media critique, and I think it all it works into all of those levels that're just sort of like, oh, what is it saying about how movies are structures and how that feeds into how people meant specifically think how gender roles are supposed to play out, right, It's like
the idea of roles. It's like on multiple levels, which I think is why she's so smart and good and also built in is like I'm going to write really big, crazy parts for me and my partner to like go.
Off, which is like very very cool, which.
Is notable because like this is a huge breakthrough for her as an actress. Like Paul had been in stuff because he was a little missunshine, but she's like, yeah, there would be like he was a big actor and she was just sort of like bouncing around doing theater and then does this and again writes a movie way later, but like then becomes much more notable as an actress, oddly enough, almost exclusively playing romantic leads in like lighthearted
indie comedies. But it also works on sort of the basic level of like I want to showcase for us to show like I'm also not just what Hollywood thinks I am when they picture me.
Sure, yeah, I'm like excited to see I mean, i haven't seen more from her since, but like I'm excited to just keep seeing more from her because she's I mean that sort of speaks to the last thing I wanted to just like touch on she sort of talked about earlier, but just that, Like, this movie just feels very ahead of its time in a way I wasn't expecting.
I watched back some of the original press tour of this and it's a lot of Zoe and Paul and Paul being asked more questions and Paul being asked There was one just like subtle stuff that like watching it ten years later in like three sixtyp you're like, ooh,
do not talk to my friend that way. There's either just like switching the direction to talk to Paul Dano about something when they're there, to talk about the movie that she wrote, and start in and then also just like little stuff that like, oh, I think this may have happened to me before, where it's like a scene that Zoe Kazan has written, and there she's asked more than once, like how much improv happened in that scene, as if it was unbelievable that she could have written
a well constructed scene. It just made my blood boil.
She went to Yale for playwright.
Like she wrote it, Dude, it doesn't sound improvise whatsoever. And then I just wanted to share the lead on this glowing New York Times review of this movie from twenty twelve, it's the critics pick by Stephen Holden, who hasn't entertained a fantasy of romantic omnipotence in which a dream partner complies with your every wish in the language of my fair lady. Oh, wouldn't it be loverly? But wait? Would unquestioning obedience really answer your deepest longings? Or would
it rob you of the thrill of the chase? Might playing puppet master awaken inner demons that drive you to behave monstrously? Ruby Sparks is an ingenious and delightful variation on the Pygmalion myth toy is whimsically with these questions. As the initially perfect relationship between an author and has sprung to life, creation goes through changes. That's how a positive review of this movie would go.
In twenty twelve.
Ten years ago.
Brudal Well, I'll contrast that with a few quotes from Zoe Kazan just to kind of like contextualize where she coming from and like how the development of this movie went and where the idea came from. I guess she was inspired because she was like going home one night and saw a discarded mannequin that she thought was a body, and she was like, oh no, and then she realized
it was a mannequin. But she's like, what if, like there was this like discard like just like a I don't even know actually how I don't know how that turned into this idea. But she was also inspired by the myth of Pigmalion, and then she started writing a chunk of the script and then she realized the thing that she wanted to explore with this is the kind
of idea of love versus the actuality of it. And she has a few quotes that I want to share I'll paraphrase this first part where she describes how you know her mom is a feminist and she was raised with feminist thinking, and her parents had a kind of non traditional relationship where traditional gender roles weren't that observed, and she says, quote, but with my first relationships, I've found myself being expected to behave in an almost subservient way.
It was shocking. I couldn't believe how traditional the roles are for so many people. My girlfriends would sometimes say to me, God, you're so lucky, he loves you so much, and I would think to myself, I'm so lonely. I feel like a doll unquote. And I feel like that informs like a lot of what this story is about.
She also says, quote, I haven't seen a lot of things from that perspective, that idea of being gazed at, but never seen that moment when you think I am so strong and so brave inside and you're treating me like a baby. So I wanted to explore that in a way that wasn't unkind or alienating for men, because I love men unquote, and maybe like that almost makes
men are awesome. She says, huge move for Jesse. And it also makes me wonder like was that a studio note at the end, or is she saying like men do reserve redemption sometimes I don't know, it's we don't know either way.
I would just be interested to hear her talk about this movie. Now.
Yeah, the final thing I want to share from her is she says, quote, I'm very girly. I've been girly since day one, but being girly led to relationships where the guy has a very strong idea of me. But it's an idea that it's only appropriate for adult. Just because I'm girly doesn't mean I'm a lost little girl. I hate that you're either a little lost girl, or you're a bitch who doesn't need men, or you're a nurturing motherly type. I have all of those things inside me.
Who doesn't unquote, And so just like this collection of quotes is I think like very informative for like what her and just were with this movie. And we talk about this a lot, especially that last quote as far as like, oh, hyper femininity has been kind of criticized by many different types of people, but including feminists, because it's like, oh, well, you're just like succumbing to this expectation of what a woman.
Would be guilty of it early in the show.
I've definitely done it throughout my life. Yeah, and I like this. She's like, no, like just because I'm this way doesn't mean that I'm not also other things and that I'm not complicated and that I am not a feminist. So yeah, I just I liked those quotes and I liked where she was coming from.
Yeah, it was around these times. There was like I don't remember when New Girl started, but I feel like New Girl was partly also like the debate about like the idea of Zoe Deschanel, because like people were like making fun of like hello Giggles type people people were yeah, and that was so she was like on the front line of like quirky people can also have depth or whatever. Now like that it's not like the number one thing this movie is about, but it is somewhat defense of like,
you know, quirky people are complicated. They just sort of manifest those complications with different ways.
But on the Calvin character, as he's like listing off the traits of the Ruby Sparks character, he says something like she's complicated and that's what I like about her. Well, it's first of all, you did not develop her to be complicated. She just became complicated because she materialized as a human in the world. And secondly, you don't like that about her. You do not like this she's complicated.
Yeah, you just like that. She's like a Zoeka's hand type.
Yeah, like character actors who appear in round cons a lot. She's been typed a lot over the years too. And I think it is interesting to like look at hers and Paul Dano's career alongside each other because they've been together for so long, and it's like they're both tremendously talented actors, and it's like he easily gets more opportunities to show range and to try shit out, and he's still a type Like you're not casting Paul Dano for certain kinds of roles.
But like he's not the Terminator, but he is.
The Riddler, right, And it's like Zoe Kzan doesn't get those kinds of opportunity or at least that I know of.
No, she gets to play a journalist in a movie, right, It's like she's she said, and like it's her and Carrie Mulligan which are both Zoe kzan Cary Mulligan types, and it's the only reason they get to both be in a movie. It's because it's about two journalists. Like, she doesn't get to play the villain in a Batman movie, which would be like imagine she played Poison Ivy. It's the weirdest take on that characters be cool.
And it's interesting because it seems like she's like interacting with these ideas ten years before it you know, continues to happen.
Yeah, because I imagined someone informed by going on auditions and you know, it's like quirky person types and the and going into auditions and everyone is like a different version of regards of how manic they are Pixie in some capacity.
Yeah, sorry, I was just distracted by my thought of, you know, who does get to be a Batman villain, Zoe Kravit.
There can only be one nepotism Zoe in the Batman universe, Zoe k Yeah. Oh wow wow Yeah continues. Does this movie pass the Maxels test? I don't think it does. I don't think it does. I don't think so. That's a bummer. Yeah, I could see that being a creative choice because I would be really surprised if Zoe Xan was not aware of this metric, just based on what I know about her. Maybe that's not true, but I do think that it would probably be true. But I
don't think that the movie. I don't know. I still think it's a fantastic movie that has a lot to say about Jinda, But I don't think that the movie would be harmed by and I think in some ways in my brain version of this movie, it could be helped along in an interesting way by giving Zoe a woman in the real world to have some sort of like or just watch Zoe observe other people's relationships and talked to someone about it. Like it just feels like because we do see her being active as she gains
autonomy without even realizing that that's what's happening. But it would have been cool to see her talk to people instead of just reacting to Calvin. So I feel like this would be stronger if she talked to more women.
There could be even be a scene where like she either becomes friends with Susie or has like a girlfriend from her acting class or something like that, and they talk about Calvin's shitty behavior.
And where she sees a woman being treated worse than she is and like how does she feel about that?
Or like right, right, right, And then if Ruby calls him out on his behavior, then he would probably just write another sentence on his manuscript of like Ruby has an intense distrust of other women because women are petty or something like that.
Yeah, intentionally keeping her from other women would have been an interesting choice.
Yeah, yeah, it.
Seems like because both like intentionally the movie was like I have to follow the beats of male protagonist hero movie, even if he're subverting it. Yeah, right, I think, which I talked about last time, which is like sometimes if you do the strictest version of like Hero's Journey, it's like, well, there's no room for anyone else. But also I imagine it's also, as we said, there's so little cast, there's
so few speaking roles. That's why it was like it has to be the mother because there's only so much budget for her, Like all the people in her class have to be extra. She couldn't be like not some good painting, right, we can't even see her painting class.
No, we don't know if she's any good, which does feel like a creative twice. I don't think he cares. It's not like her paintings are hanging up, which also is like, yeah, he just doesn't give it. He just wants her to do a romantic sounding thing. He doesn't want to look at it.
No, he prefers that she's good at cooking, right.
Right, although I think we see some of her illustrations and paintings like in the bedroom.
Yeah it's paintings of him, right.
Yeah, it's literally paintings of him, yes, yeah, but again he wrote her that way or something. I don't know anyway, Nipple Skill our scale of zero to find the rector Jesse based how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist lens, I think I'm gonna give this a three and a half. I'm docking it for the ending, which is a little too sugary and Hollywood e and maybe it was a
studio note or not, We're not sure. But basically, the Calvin character gets a redemption that I don't think he has earned at this point, and I don't like that he's like presented with what seems to be an opportunity to like reconnect with her and like have a second chance. And again I don't not to say that people don't deserve a redemption. It's a case by case scenario. But this person doesn't this person at this time, this character does not because he has not earned it at this time.
So I did not like how the movie concludes. But everything up until that point, for the most part, I thought, was like a really interesting characterization of men's expectations of like what a hetero romance with a woman should be or not, you know, hashtag not all men, but like a very kind of in general or like, you know, under patriarchy. This is how a lot of men feel and how they operate and how they behave and what their conduct is like in these types of relationships, and
it still happens. We're not past it yet. So I thought it was a really interesting exploration of all of that. But also it's a very such a white movie, and it's like we're in Los Angeles and what do we why? Anyway, three and a half nipples, maybe even four, I'm not sure. Let's go three point seventy five, and I'll give one to Zoe Kazan. I'll give one to the actor who
plays Susie, which is Tony Trucks. I will give one to Annette Benning, and I'll give my three quarters nipple to Scottie the Dog and specifically the piss on male Calvin's bed.
I had a similar fruitless battle between three point five and four, so I'll do the same three point seventy five. I think that this movie is pretty fucking amazing. I do appreciate and want to shout out the fact that it is co directed by a woman, Valerie Ferris of Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Ferris who previously did Little Miss Sunshine.
It is written by Zoe exam Like. I think it's very very rare, even in this subgenre of like good movies that address this trope, to have a woman involved at the highest level, which is interesting, and so I'm actually giving it four because I just changed my mind. I do, however, think that like this entire subgenre also does take place in upper class white families with I
don't think any exception which does feel worth examining. Yes, especially because you're saying we're in LA like, it's ridiculous to have Antonio banderaz In essentially a glorified cameo role alias katt In essentially a glorified cameo role and Susie truly not involved in any meaningful way, so I am critical of that. I don't like the ending, obviously, but the majority of the movie. I think this movie is so ahead of its time. I think is really good
and it made me want to watch more. Zoe exam by ZOEA Kasan because I don't want to watch she said again, unfortunately, not because I'm a misogynist, because it was boring and I do want all the president's men with women journalists. But that was not it. And that's the rude thing I'm saying at the end.
For no reason, Jamie. I can't believe that you, my creation, would say something like that. So I type something you said on my typewriter, the.
Best reporting of our time, and it was like being a mother is hard, and you're like, oh my god. Anyways, we're talking about the movie Ruby Sparks, which I'm giving four nipples to right now. I am giving one to Susie, I'm giving one to Ruby Sparks herself, I'm giving one to Alias Chacott, and I am giving one to you. Think I'm gonna give it to Emmanette Benning, I'm not. I'm giving it to Christmasina because I had a great time watching them.
Wow.
Yeah, a guy who likes sports and can read talk about there's there's a lot being subverted in this movie. I'm kidding. Uh huh, I'm going to a hockey game tomorrow.
Wow incredible, Jesse, what say you?
I will also give it four nipples. I have a bad memory, but I've decided to retcon my brain to be like this movie changed my life and maybe because the flaws in my own ways, like how I approach relationships. I don't know if that's true, but it seems around the time where I was like starting to get better
at understanding people or people or whatever. Like I also think, you know, like I never said friend zone, probably, but I maybe did, you know, Like I was raised in this culture and I had to learn, and I think this movie was formative and like helping. I think Five Hundred Days of Summer is somewhat also about how a certain type of guy creates an idea of a woman and then realizes like, oh, maybe I'm creating idea. I don't love her, I love the idea of where, but
kind of really lets that person off the hook. And this movie, like really makes you sit with how grotesque it can look. And like that scene where it's that scene that we talked about being really tough to watch, like forces you to like confront that like this is the worst it possible can be. And I think that's really impressive. But as we said, it's like it is a narrow world. So and then I will give these
nipples too. One for Zoe Kazan the writer. One for Zoe Kazan the actress because while doing the script, she also found a way to show all different types of moves she can do and like that's the benefit of Nepo Baby, and he's like, well, I'm gonna write this movie, I must have like showcased different things.
Speaks French, yeah yeah, which is a very Kazan thing to do.
One for Paul Dano for reading the script being like, yeah, we should do this, me and you.
What's the worst that could happen?
They're still together as far as like, oh.
They got two kids.
I see Paul Dano around with.
One of Melissa Lozada will have a multiple time guests of the show. I met him at a coffee shop once and had a full on It wasn't a romcom moment, but he was just like, what book are you reading? And She's like, and I thought I was gonna pass out.
The first time I talked to Zoe, we talked about books. I can't remember why.
A couple who reads books are so pervasive, so important.
They are real Brooklyn parents and actors through and through. And then I have one more nipple and it will go to Valerie Ferris and Jonathan Dayton for remind me what twenty twelve was like and having a soundtrack that was not souf fun Stevens but sounded like the mood board was like, well soup on Stevens like, and I missed that. So kudos to them for this being the first project they did after that movie.
Nice Jesse, thank you so much for joining us. Thank us about your book before you go.
Geez oh.
Books are so important.
We just important. And Zoe Kazan read them.
If I see them on the street, I gotta give him a copy. The book is called Comedy Book. It's a book about comedy functions as an art form and as part of our culture. It's no it's like a heady, big book about the last forty years or so of comedy most related to our topic of conversation is I talk about context in satire and is it better for satire to be really heavy handed allah Black Mirror or for it to be something like this where people might get confused. I don't pick a side, but it's an
easter egg. I ultimately would prefer something like this then to Black Mirror. Yeah, and it's a bookstores. I'm doing comedy shows for it. One in New York on November seventh, one in LA on November thirteenth. Go to those please.
It's a wonderful book. I'm like, I'm enjoying it so much. It's been my Sunday book. It's been keeping me company. Yes.
Is there anything social media as you'd like to?
Oh my name on all of them. I'm going to leave or x after the book comes out, but until then, if this is before that, I'm so on Twitter, but not Instagram's where I use just to promote things cool and post Simpson's screenshots.
That's work that's important, and you follow us also mostly on Instagram. At Bechdel Cast, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon dot com, slash Bechdel Cast and become a matron where We do two bonus episodes every month, plus access to the back catalog of around one hundred and fifty bonus episodes, all for five dollars a month.
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Okay, bye bye bye by