Reality Bites with Bridget Todd

That was my That's one of my favorite bubbles to burst. Not because but that was something I learned while I was making Lolita podcast, because I was just making a superlist of popular songs that are actually about exploiting young women. And My Sharona is I mean, look, if you want to pause the podcast and take a gander at the lyrics, be my guest, but it is, uh, it is a rough road. My my dad. That was one of my

dad's favorite songs. And I was like, Dad, you gotta you gotta take a peep at these lyrics, and he was like, oh my, oh my. Now look this is just a sampling of one of the elements of culture that maybe don't age very well. Welcome to the Bexel Cast. My name is Jamie Lofts and my name is Caitlin Durante. And this is a podcast where basically we take media that you love and point out everything that's wrong with it from an intersectional feminist lens. I think that's a

little harsh. We we take a look at it from an intersexual fevtist lens. We're not a part of the ruin everything culture. We take a look at things that just happens sometimes as a byproduct of what we do, because a lot of things kind of just ruined themselves. I guess so is that fair to say anyway? Um So, we used the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point

to initiate a larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, originally conceived as a just kind of one off joke in a comic by Alison Becktel called Begs to Watch Out for Uh, and has since been kind of repurposed as this media metric.

There are many versions of it, the one that we use requires that two people of a marginalized gender who have names must speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man, and ideally it's a narratively meaningful conversation. Oh yeah, oh yeah. And today we have a long time request with a much beloved guest, so let's get to it. We're covering reality bites directed by one bend Still are written by

one Helen child Dress Childress. Don't know, sure, don't know, and we'll never know. And that's on in hernalized misogynt we know how to pronounce Ben Stiller's name makes you think, okay, uh so look at her wonderful returning guests in here. Indeed, she is the host of the podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet. She's the host of the new podcast Internet Hate Machine on cool Zone Media. Check it out. And do you remember her from our episode on Eve's

by You. It's Bridget Todd. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me, Thank you for bringing us reality bites. I'm very excited, too excited. Did did to discuss us us us this movie? Um that you have brought us? I feel like This movie is very often held up as like this is the gen X movie, which, as many you know, and we can bitch all day about jen X and we will, but I will say it must suck as a generation to be told like

this is you when you like it or not. Like, I don't think that millennials really have a movie that is like made like this is your defining thing. I think I would resent it on. I would just resent it automatically. So to our gen X listeners, whether you like this movie or or not, I think it's just I feel like it's the only generation I know of that is like, there's one movie about gen X and it involves one of the most toxic relationships I've ever seen.

Committed to film. Oh, brother, um that said, I'm excited to discuss this movie. There were elements of it I liked very much. So bridget to kick us off. What is your history with reality bites? Oh, I have a long history with this movie. That's why I suggested it. I loved it when I first saw it. I saw it as a young person, maybe I saw it in high school. I even had the soundtrack that I bought from the Salvation Army, which the soundtracks, slaps sound it

really is. Yeah. I loved it, And I also think it was a movie that when I was young in the suburbs, I thought, when I'm an adult, this my life is gonna be like this. It's gonna be cool, creative young people hanging around in a group house, you know, smoking weed out of cans and quitting with each other. It really presented a life that I found aspirational at the time. And it's funny because watching it now, I'm like, thank God, that wasn't my eye. Yeah, not a great

fate as it turns out. Jamie. What is your relationship in history with this movie? Um, I don't have much of history with it. I had never seen it before. It never really never came across my desk as a youth. I have worked with one of the producers of this movie before, Stacy Shure. She's really really awesome. So I'm coming in a little bit biased here because I just think that she's like championed so many movies that centerr women and queer stories, and like she She's done a

lot of really really cool work. But I never actually like sat with this movie before and watched it, and honestly I was coming in thinking maybe I wouldn't like it very much at all. They're definitely like I mean, I think that this movie, like I didn't know much about the history. I didn't know it was like written by a young woman that is like very much pulling from her own experience, which I think is really cool and especially in would have been super rare. And then

just like I don't know. I mean, my main issue with this movie, which I'm sure we'll be talking about, is it's like hyper focus on this shitty relationship that

I mean, and amongst other things. But it felt like there were a lot of things that that this movie was commenting on that even when characters sucked, they sucked contextually in a way that felt like there's a lot of satire and a lot of commentary on like why people are making the choices they are, Like no characters goats completely uncriticized by the movie except for like this relationship that I just have Like oh um, But but

I'm very excited to talk about it. I feel like there's a lot of it resonated more than I was expecting it too. For me, Caitlin, what is your history with reality bites? I Honestly, I am not sure if I had seen it before, because there were parts that were very familiar to me, the my Sharonas scene in particular. I that scene is really fun. It is. But what I remember even more than them dancing to that song was the line where they're like, Avian is naive spelled backwards.

I don't know why Corny jed x line. Ever, why did I remember that so much? I'm not sure. I think there's a very real possibility that I had only ever seen that seen probably from that movie Trivia Game. Seen it, Oh my god, And that's just why I remember seeing it. That's the millennials true movie. Oh yeah, Oh you just a lot to memory for me of how much I love seen it and I haven't played it in years seen it kind of rules. Yeah, oh yeah, that's so much cultural osmosis. Um. Maybe that maybe I

had seen that scene that way too. Also, this is like Janine Garofolo being I was like, that's the true harbinger of of a gen x um classic. Is like Jennine Garofolo in a supporting role. Yeah, we've done it. That's how you know. Um. But yeah, the rest of the movie wasn't super familiar to me, so I think I had actually seen the whole thing, and it was just that scene in the gas station that I saw and then thought I had seen the whole movie. I'm

not really sure. So, yeah, not super familiar with this movie. But but there's a lot to talk about there is This is not the primary thing to talk about. But I didn't know Steve Zon was in this movie, and as a known Zon head, I was like, who, well, well, look who we have here, Stevenson. I love Stevenson so much. The fact that anyone would say in a movie that no one wants to have sex with Steve Zon, I'm like, you're gonna want to check your notes on that one.

I do love Steve Zon. Do you remember when he played the cat Stewart a little? Of course. I remember when he played Stewart Little. Yeah. He played Nathan Lane's best friend and his only line was snow volume of best friend. God, he's so delightful. It's such a delight when he like, no one's ever sad to see Steve's on. He's what was your Is that your favorite Steve's on movie?

Stewart Little Yes. I'm trying to think of where I first fell in love with steve 'son, it would have been I remember this is I don't think where I fell in love with him, But he was in a Christen Early Christen Stewart movie called Speak, which is about a very traumatic it's very traumatic, but Steve's On plays the nice teacher of a middle schooler who experiences pretty horrific abuse. And so Steve's On, You're like, oh, nice, Mr He's just always Mr Nice. He's always Mr Nice?

Is Mr Nice? He cannot play a villain. Um, I've accept in White Lotos, where he definitely does. Oh that's I didn't finish that series. Um. I first saw him in the movie joy Ride. What's that? It's basically a remake of the movie Duel where a scary truck driver terrorizes Steve's On, Paul Walker and Lely Sobieski And it's pretty cool. What else is Stevenson is also and You've Got Mail? I think maybe that's the last time I got thrilled to see him on the show in a

movie I had. The Whites did not like. It's funny. I'm looking at his IMDb reality bites. Was only that like the fourth movie he had ever been in he was in an episode of All My Children, a movie, a TV movie called First Love, Fatal Love, another movie called Rain Without Thunder, an episode of a show called South Beach, and then reality bites like that was his This was like early Steve's On. This was his break,

this big break. I read that because the casting process, for I mean, the production of this movie is just like wild in general. But I read that Ethan Hawk had just like done a play with Steve's on and was like, he's cool for human and then Steve's on being Mr nice Um was really enthusiastic about playing a queer character who is like who comes out of the closet and is loved and accepted for it because he's Mr nice So the only movie I've ever seen him

being not nice in is um a perfect getaway. He's like, I don't want to spoil it, but it's got I think Mila Djovlovich maybe uh. And he's very much the villain, like not just like the villain like in White Lotus where it's like, oh, he's rich and has a lot of privilege, A villain villain like a bad guys. Good

for him. He's got range. I also remembering he's Mr Nice And I don't know if anyone else was a baby sitter and saw the Diary of a Wimpy Kid movie series, but he's he's Mr Dad in that one, and yeah, sure he makes some mistakes, but at the end of the day, he's Mr Nice. Well, shall we move on from Steve's on? The beginning of the ence is in this movie this is a feminist movie podcast, which you wouldn't have guessed from that conversation at Tirade

about Steve's on about how he's nice. Yeah, let's recap the movie, shall we? Let's do it? Okay, So we open on Lelna. That's Winona writer. She's giving a speech at her college graduation, which effectively sets up the theme of the movie, which is like, Hey, there are all these problems in the world, but what do we do about them? I don't know that. I like how every generation will, especially now that like we're no longer the youngest generation and we're growing crustier with each passing day.

I do think it's like funny how that this is the question of literally every generation. But everyone is like, but it was my idea. We're kind of the first people to have this problem and it's like, wow, Dan getting old is punishing. It was not our idea, and we are also fumbling it. So amazing. Yeah, Okay, So then we see video footage because Lelena is making a documentary about her friends. Her friends are Troy Dyer. That's Ethan hawk Hot mm hmmm. His character is despicable. His

character is horrible. Yeah, Vicky, that's Janine Garoffalo and Sammy Steve's on of the Zones sence Hot. There's I just I'm going to be annoying today. Um there was. I was thinking of just like other very gen xy movies and things in general, and I was thinking about Rent, which I feel like also goes in this category very much. Also features I think, a visibly terrible documentary about someone's friends. It was a very niceties thing to do to think

that you were. I mean, I guess it's like how millennials and gen z use social media to be like get ready with me, and it's like, God, everyone's so fucking boring and you all have the same instincts exactly. Yeah, And I think that to document our lives and make them public. I do think that Winona Writer's fake documentary in Reality Bites seems more interesting than Anthony Rapp's fake

documentary in rent That's a professional opinion question. I mean his documentary is just videoing his I mean, Lena is like act them questions about like what's it like to be worried about AIDS? What's it like to do this? Like she's asking them their perspective the documentary. If I haven't seen Rented a long time, so excuse me if I'm misremembering, But if I recall correctly, he's just like got a camera in his friend's faces and they're just

living their lives. Yeah, he's trying to do him more Like I'm just like, is who's getting releases for these things? Logistically? Like who's getting releases for this? Yeah? He was just bringing his camera to like like support groups in a way that you're like, this is illegal mark following this person's anonymity or whatever. Yeah, she's anyway, Here's They both probably would suck, But I think when known as this is more interesting and it seems like at least everyone

is willingly participating. That's true time. Here's my hot and potentially terrible take, is that the TV network in your Face version of who are not think is like not that bad? Totally agree, I'm so I would that. I was going to totally say the same thing. I thank you, honestly, I truly so. I'm sure we'll get to this and

I maybe I'm jumping the gun. But the scene when they show it, I was like, it just seems like the bumper or the teaser, like you don't even what was so bad about it they I truly don't get it, Okay, my As I was watching that, I was like, how different is this from the trailer to reality bites? It's pretty similar and very similar, but that's like I feel like that's kind of like one of the bizarro like.

I mean, I know the word irony is used really heavily in this movie, but that's like kind of the weird irony of this movie is like a movie about selling out, but like you would have had to have sold out in order for it to be made. It's a studio movie, right. I don't know, Jamie, define irony. You can't. It's undefinable. Literally, I was as she was fumbling with that, I was like, oh, I would have I would not have been able to do that, would

have sucked it up. I also think that what Ethan hawks characters definition is like also not quite the right definition of irony? Was this before or after the Atlantis Morrissette song This exchangees I was like, could no one in this generation correctly define that word? We don't know anyway. Okay, So Lene is making this documentary about her friends. We

see footage of them talking. They're goofing around, they're speaking on their lives and their future plans, and they all seem kind of aimless and they they're not really sure what to do or how to proceed. Then we cut to Lelena having dinner with her parents. Her dad gives her a gas card, which he says he'll pay the bill on for a year. He also gives her his

old BMW. There's some debate about whether or not she should take the BMW because she mentioned being more morally opposed to BMW's in her graduation speech, but ultimately she takes the car and loaded the privilege these kids have, um I know. Yeah. So then Lena we see her at her job as a I think production assistant on a morning talk show for Frasier's dad. Oh my god, right, second only the two times I gasped, No, three times I gasped. First Steve's on reveal, second, Fraser's dad revel,

Third she chooses ethan Hawk reveal just just just. But Frasier's dad absolutely killing in this movie. And his character is a menal jerk he learned, just like in Frasier, except in Frasier it's complicated. I mean, he's he's like a softie that we love, but he does run for like an extreme like he doesn't even vote for like an extremist candidate, and might have some and not so great political positions. I would not because I think, isn't

he like a former cop? Like you? You're like, I don't want to know how this guy votes, but I do love the just the character setup of I love my fancy sons, my fancy lad son, my I love my weird fancy sons. You're like, well, someone's gotta a little aside. I I only I watched Fraser for the first time in The Pandemic and my partner loves the show, and I was like, oh, isn't it about a gruff guy who has two sons who are British for some reason?

And he was like, no, they're not British, They're just fancy. I always, for whatever reason, I did assume they were British. I would say that Kelsey Grammar and David Hyde Piers do sort of affect a like movie like Transatlantic accent for their roles. It's not they don't sound like they're from Seattle. They sound like Rose DeWitt Picater from Titanic. Yes, they sound they sound like they're from a place that never existed. But I mean, look, the Fraser reboot, goddamn

if I'm not going to watch it. They shut down one of my favorite local bars to film, which is weird. That's a thing that's happening. A Fraser reboot. Oh yeah, I don't know about this. There's going to be a Fraser reboot. And they shut down this bar near me called the Thirsty Crow, just like a fun but like grimy little bar. I was like, what is Fraser going to do there? Get killed? Like I don't know. Okay,

So so we see Lena at her job. Then she gets into a minor car accident with this guy named Michael played by Ben Stiller, and they meet via this car accident and they kind of hit it off and he asks her for a date. Meanwhile, Troy slash Ethan Hawk has been fired from his newsstand job for eating a Snickers bar, so he has to move into Lelena and Vicki's apartment and he crashes on the couch for a while. We also learn more about the dynamic between Troy and Lelena, which is a bit contentious. It's a

bit will they or won't they? The friends are hanging out, we see more documentary footage Lelena and Vicky and Sammy dance to my Sharona in the convenience store. Troy is like, I'm too cool to dance. You're like, shut up. I hate him. I can't stand Troy can't stand. He reminds I'm discovering that a lot of nineties ethan Hot characters are really deplorable. Because Before Sunrise is one of my favorite movies. But I went back and rewatched that recently.

I was like, oh my god, his character is awful in that movie. He gets a little more mature and Before Sunset, but I still haven't seen it. I mean, it's like there's I I'm it's it's so confusing. I wish I could was anyone able to find like because I read that this script was written like sevent dy times, so it sounds like there was like studio notes on

notes on notes on notes. Um. So I'm just like because it seems like the final script goes all the way up to like, yeah, fuck this guy, but then at the last second it's like, nah, he's great, he's great, and you gotta marry him. And I was like, that has to be a studio notes. Like I cannot conceive of a world because it's like the movie goes all the like she does the she does the right thing, she bails. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, So then Lelena goes on

her date with Michael Ak Ben Stiller. They make out, which Troy sees and he gets upset about this and he picks a fight with Lelena and she's like, if you have a problem, just say it, and he's like, I love you, and it seems like he's being sincere, but it turns out he's just being an asshole, even though it is clear that he is in love with her, but he won't admit it. Anoying Can I Can I ask a question there? Because that's something in rewatching this movie,

I was sort of like, what is this? And I know people are complicated and I've certainly been there, what is the vibe of like being in love with each other? It's also in plan that they've hooked up drunkenly at least once in the past, at least once. Like why are they so against admitting it, talking about it, communicating about it? Like I understand that in in the in the universe of the film, it's supposed to be like they can't admit it, you know, they don't want to

ruin the friendship. Why not, Like why it's communicating openly about how you feel such a villain in the universe of this film. I feel like my assumption was like they're twenty two and extremely emotionally immature, Like that was sort of mine. And like especially Troy, like I mean, we can we'll talk about Lena and all the ways where like she's very messy and a lot of regards, especially with her own privilege, and like she's just like bad at navigating it. But like Troy especially, I feel

like he's like I don't know, like I'm trying. I was watching this movie, I was thinking, all this bad advice my mom has given me at different points in my life, but where she's like, well, sometimes like people run away because they know that they can't handle a

relationship even if they care about you. And I was like, yeah, like I can sort of see that in Troy, of like he knows he's a piece of ship to some extent, and like even if you love someone and you know you're a piece of ship, but then but then he's also so unwilling to work on himself that you're just like, I don't know, I don't know, what do you guys think? Well, I would have definitely had the hots for Ethan Hawk's character when I was in my early twenties, No question.

I would have let him suck up my life, suck up my credit, crash on my couch, no question in my mind, I would have gotten sucked up in that Troy tornado. Happily, I would have been in love with steve 'son and then he would have come out to me, and then I would have been like, I'm happy for you, and then I would have cried for weeks and then we would have been friends forever. But yeah, I mean I don't get the whole Oh, we love each other, but we refuse to admit it thing. I mean I do.

But for me, at least, if I like someone romantically, I go out of my way to tell them, see I will, I will be quiet about it forever. So I do understand like where he's coming from. But also, but but I feel like that gets conflated with like, and so he's allowed to be an asshole and neg everything. She says. It's like, well, it's one thing to not express your romantic feelings to someone, but that doesn't automatically translate to like, and you get to be at evil

villain because you can't. But i'fe like that's where a lot of the masculine issues that Troy has, that's where a lot of them live. The film really like validates his antisocial dick behavior, And it's supposed to be like, well, he's an artist, he's tortured, he's emotionally unavailable, and we're

supposed to not find that problematic as of you. We're supposed to like empathize for him being in that state, as opposed to be like, well, you're an adult and you are responsible for communicating the way that you feel. If you can't, we're not all supposed to find it charming or whatever, right, And it's like there are moments where Laney like does explicitly say that where she's just like, oh, you're a fucking artist. Then like where is the art at?

Like what are you doing? What? You don't do shit? Like she calls him out on his ship, but then like the but then she just ends up with him anyways, and the I don't It is a tricky movie because sometimes you're like, you know, there's a lot of criticisms I would have of these characters that I'm like, yeah, I probably did something like that when I was twenty two. I probably did something emotionally volatile and weird. Um. But

it's it's tricky. Um. There's this through line in the movie, or this kind of like subplot where Vicky we learned that she has a lot of casual X and then she becomes worried that she is HIV positive because a friend of hers tested positive for HIV, so we see her going to get tested. We then see a scene where Lena's boss aka Mr. Fraser's dad is an asshole to her, so she retaliates by humiliating him on air, which gets her fired. So now she's worried about money.

She's worried about paying rent. Troy consoles her and in so doing, he surprised kisses her and she's like, no, it'll ruin our friendship. And also I'm dating Michael. Troy's ability to make anything and everything about himself is um infurious staggering. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lelena shows Michael her documentary and he is like a VP of programming for this TV network similar to MTV called in Your Face, and he thinks this documentary would be great programing for the network,

but Lena isn't sure about that. Um. We also see Troy after having been rejected by Lena. He's being pretty distant. Then we see Lilena trying to get a new job in television, but she can't get hired for anything. She then considers a hot dog job's hot dog David Spade hot dog cameo, Hello there. And I also like that she can't hack in the world of hot dogs. She's that I found to be good hot dog representation of like not just anyone can work in hot dogs, which

is true. And on the other end, I appreciate that there's a through line with Laney that she is a smart and creative young woman who is constantly thwarted by being bad at math. Um don't know that? Yeah, it's like I know this, I know this struggle. I know this pain at math, bad at money numbers in general or not her strong suit like no way either. Let's be real, could either of you to add two numbers

like that in your head? Like he he throws her like three dred and sixteen plus twenty nine, Like you couldn't add that in your head quickly without a piece of paper, right right? And she also like I do like how I mean, like when not the writer's the bet, Like I love this character like just buckles under like one milliss thing of pressure at any time. They're like to find a word, she's like and like explode And

he's like, what's stupiless too? And she's like, I don't know that is that doesn't have My favorite line of the whole movie when she can't add the numbers that she's guessing and David's fate is like it's not an option, and then that that seems, I mean, it is a well written like the line that it ends on. Rai's like, look, I've been at this job for six months, for a reason like that's honestly the funniest scene in the movie. The scene that proceeds that we'll talk about. But there's

some really fucked up ablest language and ideology that's happening there. Yes, Okay, So Lena, she's struggling to get a new job. She's bumming around for a while. Then she calls a psychic cot line and racks up a huge phone bill. So now she has to figure out how to pay it off and get her life back on track. So she basically starts running a scam where she pays for people's gas with her dad's gas card but makes the customers

give her cash. So she's collecting the cash knowing that her dad will pay off the gas card, and that's how she like earns enough money to pay for this phone bill. She she taps in and out of her privilege. It's wild, It's wild. Yeah. So then Michael tells Lena that his network wants to buy her documentary and make it a series. Um, and she's very excited about that

because she's like, this solve my money problems. And then Michael and Troy argue because Troy is being an asshole and he's like, you don't know what Lena needs, and Michael's like, I know what she needs in a way that you never will, and you're like, oh my god, put your dicks away and stop trying to measure them. And then and then the fact that they go back for round two before the end of the movie. I'm like, you, guys, this,

this is such a bad look. She shouldn't pick. I was really hoping she would do the thing where she is like, wait a second, I'm twenty two. I picked nobody. I picked myself right, Yeah. Yeah, Sex in the City finale style. I mean I I do I in the universe of this film. I always wonder is Michael such a bad guy? Like what did he do that was other than with the movie? Like what do you do that was so wrong? I have the same thoughts. I

don't hate Michael. I think it's very interesting that the movie seems to want I mean, I feel we're supposed to dislike Michael because he works for a corporation, but he's like a yuppie sellout. Yeah, he's a yuppie sellout. But the messaging of this movie is so muddled where it's like it's okay if some people are sellout, but

it's not okay if other people are. Again, I just like it makes me want to read earlier drafts of this movie because I found Michael to be a pretty sympathetic character, and I liked that the movie went out of its way to characterize him as like a guy that had dreams but was bad at math, and like he's like, I don't know, it's so weird because you put yourself in gen X brain and we you know,

we all work for fucking I heart radio. We don't have a like to stand on when it comes to like being yuppie fucking sellouts here, we are not even a little bit. I take what I am. I am, I have a price, people have met it. You know what can I say? Right like and and it's a very twenty two year old mentality. And I don't even mean that in a negative way. I think, like young people being vehemently anti capitalist is always a net good thing.

But but to put all of the evils of capitalism onto like one benz Diller, who is the only person in the movie, or the only man in the movie who seems to a be willing to apologize for when he fox up and be like accept Laney's decisions and like seems to like genuinely respect and love her. I felt like a sellout for kind of being like is he not bad? But like is he saying I don't know? Are we are we old by saying is he that bad? But I don't think he's that bad. He is sweet

to her. Troy treats her like shit, Like there's a noble difference in the way that those two guys treat her. And I also feel like he is you know, he like wants to siphon off corporate money to get her art out into the world, which again you would think is exactly what's happening by reality bites being made and by producers championing this young writer and like, so there's all these like interesting parallels that I'm like, I don't

hate Michael. I understand people's criticisms of him, like ideologically, but like he seems like a pretty nice guy. I don't know, Yeah, I would let him take me to the aquarium restaurant. I'm just saying. Watching that's when I was in high school. But I first watched it, I was like, Oh, he's such a yuppy fuck. Troy is the is clearly the right match for her. Watching it recently in my thirties, I was like that, Michael seems like a nice guy, probably got a furrow one k

taking her to dinner. Guy, Like I literally was like, dude,

I don't know. I was like at this point, like you can't be emotionally abusive and make me pay your rent, like you make a fucking lane man, And like, anyways, he really I think he really has choice number in that scene where he's trying when they have their second conversation, like you're like the Jester, like holding a skull, Like it comes out terribly, But I think that he really is the only person in the movie who really see Stoy for who he actually is, which is just somebody

who wants to make crafts jokes while really offering not a lot himself. Is that Yeah? And I also was like, would I ultimately date a guy fumbling that hard to make a Hamlet reference? Yes, of course I would. Where he's like in the Clown and the Skull and he's alone, You're like, yeah, man, yeah, okay, we're all I guess we're all on team Michael. It doesn't feel like a great place to be but what's the alternative? But here

we are. Yeah, apparently it's she has to end up with a guy buddy movie, right, There's no alternative, So these are the choices. Okay, So, speaking of selling out, Lena sees what the In her Face network did to her documentary footage, which basically makes a mockery of her and her friends. So she's furious and she storms out back home. She and Troy talk and he's like, I do love you for real this time, and then they

smooch and then they frick. But then the next morning, Troy is very distant and he bails, and Lena goes to his show that night, I think where Michael shows up and apologizes to Lelena for the whole network mishap. He's like, let's go to New York and we'll show the network the series the way that you want it to be. But then Troy pops up and he's like, I panicked this morning, and yeah, I know him an asshole, but I'm the only real thing you have. Oh my god,

that speech a legendary, a legendarily bad. And she well, this is like, what what drives me up a wall about this movie is she reacts appropriately, She's like, go fuck yourself, because he literally is like, yeah, I'm gonna treat you bad. Yeah, I'm gonna disappear out of nowhere. Yeah. I don't play by anyone's rules, and I don't respect you, God, but I love you. And dude, oh my god, imagine that a man like said that to you, all defiantly expecting you to like marry him because of that pet

or something, or like run away with him. The audacity of straight man. Let me tell you, Oh my god, I was. I was a pretty exceptionally um bad decision maker at twenty two, but even I wouldn't have gone for that bullshit. He's he's literally telling on himself in a in a way that it's like almost doing her a favor because then you're like, okay, you're telling me who you are. Now I can walk away. There has to be a version of this movie where she walks away,

like I would hope. So, what the hell do you think? It's like one of those situations like I was it Pretty in Pink or Sixteen Candles where there's two apparently two versions where she chooses the one guy and then she chooses the other audiences didn't like it, Like, do you think there's a cut of the scripts somewhere where she doesn't choose him. I think it's pretty in pink. I'm guessing if there were seventy drafts, the coin couldn't have flipped in his favor and all seventy right, I

don't know what you would think, right, Yeah. Anyway, point is that this love triangle slash like competition between Troy and Michael for Lolene's affection. It's like reaching its peak here. Then Troy leaves town. We find out it's because his father passed away, but he doesn't really tell Lolena that he's leaving, and so she's looking for him. She's thinking about him, she's moping around, and then Sammy's like, oh no, Troy went to Chicago. So she's about to go after him.

But before she can, Troy shows up at her doorstep and he's like, I love you, and I wish I had behaved differently the morning after we smooched and fricked, and then they smooch again, and then we flash forward in time. They're together, it seems like they live together, and then the movie ends with Lilane's dad calling and being like, why is there a nine dollar bill on my gas card? Yeah? The end, Can I say something about that? Because the scene where Okay, they smooch and

they frick, he wakes up, feels weird, bails Okay. Then Laney is like where is Hei. There's like a montage where it's like that's sad you two song is playing and it's like have you seen him? Like she's like going to all his old haunts and like finding his laundry, and then Steve's on it is like, oh, his dad is sick. He's in Chicago. I ever heard of a fucking phone? Like, I guess I feel like, I mean, he does call her, but then he's like I can't.

Oh that's all right. I hate it. It's like I guess i'd just be like in the universe of the film, him not being able to physically express himself verbally even this to be like, Yo, my dad is really sick. I'm gonna be gone for a couple of days. Talk

to you. Then I don't think we're weird. When he shows up unexpectedly at her door, we're supposed to be like, wow, this is so heavy, and in reality, it's like he just skipped town for a legitimate reason, but couldn't even leave her a voicemail letting her know, Like, and why, I guess I feel like why is it treated as deep in the movie or like like a weighty emotional choice all he had, Like he couldn't leave a message, right, and then him showing back up is like, oh my gosh,

it's so romantic that he just showed up on her doorstep and professed his love after he's been an asshole to her for the entire movie, which is like, it's so it's such an abrupt way to end it, because it's like if there was a draft of the script produced where the fact like it's it's referenced twice early in the movie that Troy is dealing with a terminally ill parent, and like the I can't imagine, thankfully, I can't imagine the existential stress that comes with that, especially

when you're so young. Like that is a real thing that I'm sure, I mean like causes people to act out and like you know, like that grieving process is a real thing, but like there's no emphasis put on it, and it's made to seem like well, because the horrible thing happens that excuses how poorly he's treated people this entire movie, when it's like there's I don't know, like I always we've talked about this a bunch on the show, but there's like such a dearth of like movies that

address grief in a in a thoughtful way, and it's like that there is an opportunity to like explore it with Troy's character, but like it just doesn't really go there because it's like you obviously like feel for him, he's lost a parent, but it doesn't mean that he hasn't been treating Laney like ship seemingly before his dad was even sick. Like it's like he's just been an at Like he's an asshole going through something horrible. That's an interesting thing to explore, but you can't just like

forgive the behavior. I don't know, he does nothing to redeem himself. That's exactly it. We we as the audience never see him, Like what is the thing that we don't see him grappling with any of that, like coming to realize, you know, I have treated her badly and I have like not treated her the way that I wanted to treat her, And you know I've learned from

my behavior. You don't you don't see any of that, you know where you just are spant to be like, oh his dad passed away, that was some sort of emotional block or weight lifted, and now he's gonna show up at her door and she's gonna be thrilled to have him. Like I think if the movie had shown us a little bit or like built like built that out a little bit more, I would be more willing to accept it. Also, sign oute Jamie, how many beverages do you have? Because I've seen now the coffee whatever

than the kids. This is I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Look we've got we've got three. We've got three on rotation right now, pretty cool, or or any of the diet cokes, because you know who loves the diet coke. Jamie's got a diet coke. I was like, wow, quirky white girl drinks too many big gulps. Someone has my fucking number, Like ridiculous. By the way, we need to take a quick break and then we will come right back. And we're back and we're so hydrated and we're doing great.

I would say that most actually the things I'm drinking are not contributing to hydration. Um, by the time this episode comes out, I will have already said something about it. But I've been working at um Haunted hey Ride, and so I just I forgot I had all all of my last night's hay Ride beverages, and so I've just kind of been draining them throughout the morning and afternoon. Beautiful. Um, so we we've we started talking about the Lana slash Troy slash Michael love my angle. What else needs to

be said about that? Yeah, let's let's kind of tackle it. So I this kind of gets into my curiosity about

like how this movie was written and made. Okay, so a lot of this revolves around the writer, Helen child Dress or Childress I'm truly not totally sure, but there's a there is a piece that came out a couple of years ago from Atlantic writer Sriah Roberts, um work I really like, but about sort of the legacy of this movie and um, how it's remembered because I guess when this movie came out, it was not popular with its target audience nor which I feel like is a

very gen ic thing of like fucky, you don't make a corporate movie that me, you know, so like whatever, I get it, But how Helen child Dress is like kind of been left out of the narrative even like it just feels like a very hollywoody story where studios were like, Okay, gen X, like they're now viable consumers or whatever by the early nineties, and we want to have a like generation defining studio movie because there had been a couple of indie movies that had done well.

There was a a Richard link Letter movie that I've never seen that, but like they were like, Okay, there's an audience for this, let's do a studio version of it. So they bring in this young writer, like Helen child Dress is is Laney in a lot of ways, which she's very much admitted to. And so she's like being given five hundred dollars a week to write this movie. Laney makes four dollars a week. She's pulling from her

own experiences and her own friends. But by she wasn't even invited to the twenty five year reunion of this movie, like it got swallowed full by Hollywood, and like, I mean, I don't know, like whatever, I can't make a character judgment on Ben Stiller based on this, but it seems like this is more remembered as like Ben Stiller's first directed movie and not like Helen Child. Dress's experience is committed to film. She also has not gotten a script

produced since, which feels relevant. Um, we just wanted to share a quick quote from her from nine also to tie it back to the love triangle that was ben Stiller's suggestion and idea. Helen Child just early versions of the script gave fuller pictures of all I guess four main characters live, so there was more Steve's on, there was more Janine Garoffalo, but ben Stiller was like, let's keep it focused on the relationship, which is what we all have hated the most. Interestingly the note from the

male director. But um, yeah, she said. Um. Helen Child was said, I have worked consistently and constantly for twenty nine years. Um. They estimated she's written forty screenplays since Reality Bites. Um. She says. Of the handful she wrote on Spacked, half were sold er optioned. Most of them feature female protagonists. In all sincerity, I think that was a problem. Um, which is I mean, nineteen is a stretch we have well covered, and so that is definitely

a thing. So yeah, and and to be clear, so she she went for like two decades or slightly more without any writing credit. So if you look at her I am dB, she does have some writing credits from like I think sixteen and beyond, I think for mostly television. But yeah, she made this movie that ended up being this like cult classic, like people still ride for this movie.

But ben Stiller hasn't had trouble directing more movies. And yeah, she's not given the credit where credit is due for like telling her own story and for example, like the I'm also pulling this from that Atlantic piece. But um, the iconic my Sharona dancing at the gas station scene is like one of the producers of this movie, Michael Shamberg credited that scene to Ben Stiller entirely. He's like, yeah,

that was Ben Stiller's idea. But Helen Childress was like, um, hello, I wrote that into the screenplay in the script, So how and what why was it his idea? It wasn't. It was just this male producer failing to give the screenwriter, Helen her Duke, credit for writing that scene into the movie. And then when that was pointed out, this guy Shamberg was like, oops, uh, yeah, I guess she does. And then he said something like, so she deserves credit for

guiding Ben's direction. And then he says, I think the reason that I mistakenly gave Ben all the credit was that he was determined to give this feature film his feature film directorial debut a strong visual style. So the guy can't even like her, But like, what does that have to do with Like it's again bare minimum ship, Like, oh, he directed the script, like that's that's his job. She

wrote the scene like it's hurt. So yeah, It's just all of this is very indicative of the way that women in Hollywood are often erased from the narrative, forgotten about, ignored, not given do credit, all of that stuff. All that to say, also, this movie is produced by Danny de Vito. Just wanted to throw that out there. Danny. I don't have any more information than that, but to bring it back to the love triangle. Focusing on the love triangle was very much a Ben Stiller note, and it's the

thing that we that bothered us the most. In that Atlantic piece, they do talk a little bit about Michael, but in a way that I thought was interesting where like that character it seems like went through a lot of different drafts and Ben Stiller wasn't originally supposed to play the character, and then eventually he's like, oh, I can pull from my own experience as you know, like not even to insult it, but like you know, as like a working sellout basically to you know, kind of

flesh out this character and like, I feel like I can relate with some of these moral dilemmas. And I guess that he and Helen Child just would improvise as the two characters to like figure out what that relationship was, which I thought was kind of a fun way to write. I'm sure that that's part of the reason why Michael does come out as a more sympathetic character than if he was just written as like, this is the guy you don't want to end up with, this is Mr Business,

this is Mr Evil. Right, I'm seeing not to bring

up Titanic again, But what choice do I have? I mean, I think it would have been, yeah, kind of an easier or like maybe a lazier choice to have like the Ben Stiller character be like cal Hockley, and then you have your like Ethan Hawk being more of the Jack Dawson who is artsy and poor and who isn't some cog in the capitalist machine like the boyfriend at the beginning of every lifetime movie, where like, this woman is uptight, woman is dating like a guy who only

cares about his job, and she needs to date someone who is free and wants to save this Christmas tree farm or whatever. She needs to move back home and start a Christmas tree farm and that's uh, and and go to church tomorrow while you're at it. That's a

more respectable outcome for a woman. Yeah, but yeah, just to put I guess a button on the love triangle thing, it feels like such a trophy choice to have a woman be in this like hetero love triangle where she has to pick one or the other and the option of like not picking one of them isn't presented, and then ultimately she picks the worst option of the two guys because again, both aren't great options, but at least Michael is nice to her and Troy enjoy such an asshole,

and it just kind of sends this message that so many movies and in so much media has delivered to audience, which is that, oh yeah, a man can treat a woman like shit, uh, and he doesn't have to apologize for it, and she will still pick him for reasons unclear.

I personally blame the studio executives for that. I feel comfortable blaming the studio executives for perpetuating that because it just feels like very nineties Hollywood studio notes in general, because it sounds like Helen Child just wanted to take it in a totally different direction that would have allowed you to explore these side characters who I think are like really interesting, and there's a lot like the you do get a fair amount with Lena and Um and

Vicky and their friendship, but like, I just like I wanted to see more of that because there's so I was trying to think of other friendships that It's like, it's a loving, supportive friendship that is constantly challenged by like class issues, which is like something I have you don't really see in movies very often. I was like, I'm you know, I want to see the version of

this movie that's more focused on that. I want to see the version of this movie where you know, our only openly queer character gets more than like mentioning three quarters through the movie by the way I'm coming out, I mean great, but you know, you just don't get

a lot. Where's Where's my son? Yeah, and I think the point that you make about flushing out those those side characters more, I think is so apt, especially with somebody like Vicky, because you know, they allude to the fact that Vicky is obsessed with like seventies pop culture, and so if she's you know, just graduated from college,

that's probably her childhood. So are we supposed to under We're supposed to like what's going on there that she is someone who is a you know, sexual libertine, but it's perhaps obsessed with the ideality childhood of her youth. Like I feel that there's a draft of the movie that made that flushes that out, But in the in the version that we see, we're left to connect these dots that are not really connected for us in ways

that I think just don't really work. It's confusing. Yeah, it's like I would love to know why she's so fixated on disc and I bridget You're probably right that it's just like a childhood nostalgia thing, but we just don't even get I didn't even think that yet, that thread is never really connected. And then that, I mean is one thing I did like is that like much like us and I probably for generation ever because whenever

special as we think we are. Um. I did like how these characters are constantly trying to contextualize their own experience using pop culture. Where even when Vicky is talking about her stress about waiting for to find out if she is HIV positive or negative, which I thought was I mean, I wasn't expecting that to be tackled within this movie, and I thought it was pretty tastefully and

thoughtfully done. Um. But the way that she explains her anxiety is like imagining herself as a character on Melrose Place and right, but like the way that it's presented isn't condescending. It doesn't make her seem silly or like unintelligent. It's like, oh yeah, that's like, not only are you worried about potentially being very sick? Like also I feel like that in that like simple exchange, she's describing how she thinks the world will perceive her if the results

come back a certain way. Because pop culture trains you how to see the world in so many ways, and like moments like that, I was like that is awesome. You never get stuff like that that's interesting. I have mixed feelings about the way the movie handles HIV and AIDS. Um the movie seems to be quite obsessed with it. Number one, there are several references and like sometimes kind of like offhand jokes made about it, or like characters will make an offhand comment or joke about HIV and AIDS.

And then the kind of main conflict that the Vicki characters is dealing with is that she is worried that she might be positive for HIV, and so she goes to get tested. And this is based on her having you know, multiple sexual partners. She has a little book like a sex diary, seems, where she like writes down the names and the dates of the people she had

sex with. She doesn't always remember their names. I used to do that based on this movie because I saw this movie when I was a version and when I started having sex, I was like, oh, you're supposed to keep a diary. I don't have it anymore, but in my early days of being sexual, I love it. It could be a helpful tool, I feel like, But you know,

so she gets tested, she's waiting on the results. Um Prior to her getting the results, she you know, expresses a lot of concern about, you know, yeah, the way she might be perceived or what her life might be like if she is HIV positive. I just felt that, Okay, for this to be an issue that a hetero sis woman is dealing with, when HIV and AIDS is something that largely affected the queer community, it just feels like

a weird erature of that. And obviously I'm not saying that hetero people cannot become HIV positive and have AIDS, but it's an issue that was famously not handled well because it disproportionately affected the queer community, and you know, like Reagan and and other administrations and institutions didn't give a shit about the queer community. So it was just

like very mishandled basically every administration. Right. So for a straight character to have a storyline where she's concerned about this, it just felt kind of maybe indicative of that erasure. But I was like, well, what's the alternative to have the one queer character in the movie to be concerned about that. I wouldn't want that either. I mean I think that that then you could really easily skew into

tragedy porn. And my understanding is that um Helen Childress is not a queer writer, and so it's like, would it have been her place? I also was not sure. I mean, I wasn't surprised that this movie had a preoccupation with the AIDS epidemic because it was started being written in It makes total sense to me that this would be something that these characters would realistically be talking and thinking about. But I mean, yeah, I I wasn't quite sure where to place it. I thought it was

like interesting that they tackled the subject at all. I think it would have been a really easy issue that this group of friends would have been thinking about to erase from a major studio movie. I don't know. Yeah, I guess it's like with this specific writer in this specific movie. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't have preferred it if the steves On character was if his whole storyline was defined by that. But then I guess that that's also the thing with having only one queer character in

your movie. Like, I don't know, it didn't bother me that much, but also I'm completely open to that story point not being yeah, yeah, curious would if any listeners have any insight on that. Um, can we talk about the steves On character, Sammy, Let's talk about on Baby, that's gonna be a new segment on the show, and then talk about the steves On intersections. Okay, So it didn't even register with me that he is a queer

character for a while, which does a few things. Signals to me that he is just allowed to be a queer character without that being like the first or defining thing you know about him, So his queerness is normalized in the story and in the world that he occupies. I also didn't notice any stereotypes of gay men being used with his character. But also he's kind of barely

in the movie. He's the only character of the friend group that we see that we never see with a romantic or sexual partner, except there's maybe like one quick little scene where Sammy's in a diner with a guy named Lance. Yeah he's he, and he does introduce him as his boyfriend. Oh okay, I missed that. Okay, but that's such a quick throwaway moment, and clearly because I

missed that part. So the fact that he like he's just not allowed to have any kind of like romantic subplot the way that other characters that's kind of like the focus of the movie. I did really like the scene where you see him and Vicky kind of like doing this bit where they're rehearsing him coming out to his family. Um, it's cute. And then you see the aftermath of him coming out to his family and they

did not receive the information. Well there, they don't seem to be supportive, and you see how that affects him. You you see him talking about, you know, the reasons that he has chosen to be celibate, that he you know, hadn't been honest with himself about who he is, and you just like you see a lot of his kind of him expressing his inner struggles in a way that a lot of movies, especially from that era, never bothered

to do or just like never handled well. So I thought that was it's queer representation in a movie at a time where there was very little on screen queer representation, and when it was there, it was usually really grossly mishandled. This representation isn't necessarily the best. Again, his character is kind of the of the four friends, like he has the least screen time and I think it's Helen Child. Riss did indicate that she wrote many versions of this group,

wasn't the case. So again, it's like a studio issue of like, well, sure we can have an openly gay character, but not too much where. And this also feels like an era where I mean, even going back to Rent of like queer characters are or like the movie Philadelphia, which I've never seen but I know what happens in it. We're like, Okay, we could have gay characters on screen, but only if the worst possible thing happens to them.

And so it's like we're not interested at this point in pop culture of like just exploring a queer person's day to day life in the way that this movie seems to be interested in. But then the studio doesn't let you go all the way of just like letting a gay man be a person, like and Steve's on such as sweetie, where's his first line? Where he's like such a He's just like, I don't know, I want a career. Oh, Mr Nice, Mr Nice. Yeah, let's take another break and then we will be right back and

we're back. I wanted to go back a little bit to the so this is a very white middle to upper middle class. I think maybe spans because the middle class existed when this movie came out, which is kind of like confusing to navigate. I think that. I mean, obviously they're all young white people who have done some college, and it seems like Ethan Hawk didn't finish college, not because it was financially struggling, but like because it was

like a that was his ideological preference. So it wasn't like he had to drop out because he couldn't afford it. So as far as class, because I think it's like interesting and telling that this is like hailed as the gen X movie, even if Janet's audiences didn't like it at the time, and it's still so centered on the

white middle to upper middle class experience. Oh yeah, there's a lot of like social issues that get brought up in the movie that the characters talk about, Like so many movies ignore societal ills that are affecting you know, people across the globe. But they're talking about like the energy crisis and the environment. They're talking about class and

wages and workers rights, they talk about world hunger. Like these things get brought up and the movie is largely about a young woman who's like optimistic and she wants to make a difference in the world and she wants to try to help fix some of these societal ills. But then she ultimately like doesn't really do anything and she just like kind of marinates in her privilege and

makes a documentary about her friends what happens in Rent. Also, she acts like working retail after college it's the world, like the worst thing that, Like everybody works retail after college and it's not that like she makes it seem

like it's the worst thing in the world. Okay, So I had so many feelings about that plot point, and that was another thing where it's like that to me was like what was really interesting about Like the tension between Vicky and Lena is like something that does genuinely suck about Lelena is she like wants to have her like cool, burnout friends, but she always there is an element to her character where she always has to view herself as a little bit above them, which is complicated

because like there are things she says them like you're being an asshole. I know you're technically correct, where especially Troy, Troy is not paying rent. He refuses to look for work, like he's just being He is like actively mooching off of her and then negging her all the time, which is like go fund yourself. Situations very different with Vicky. I feel like it's telling that the only two people

who live in this four person apartment are the two women. Um, I don't think that Sammy has a job for most of the movie. Yeah, Also, I don't think he lives does he live there? I think he lives somewhere else, But I don't know ifwhere he lives somewhere else because at one point he comes in and um, went Ona rogers, like, what are you even doing here? You don't live here? But she says that's Detroit too, and he does, and they call it the Maxi Pad, which leads me to

believe that it's a house where only women live. Yeah. I don't know, I might been reading too much into that. No, I like that, But like with Vicky, I mean, like she I don't know, like there is kind of this. I wish that we could have explored it more because it's like Lenna is, you know, trying to like live life on her own terms while being while actively denying her own privilege, but you know, capitalizing on her own

privilege when it suits her. Where Vicky it seems like she's from the lower middle class baby, it seems like she doesn't have of a safety net in the way that Lolena does. And she's working at the Gap, she

becomes a manager. She's like taking pride in her work in a way that I thought was like really cool, Like she was just like, oh, you know that sort of shy, like I feel like a corporate sellout, but I'm also like I've never taken pride in my work before, and like that's a cool feeling, and that was like a cool element to that character. And then Lolena thinking she's a little too good for it and and like openly expressing that to Vicky and Vicky being local, fuck

you, you you elitist break. There's there's there's like a couple of different times in the movie where someone calls another character out and you're like, yeah, good for you, and then it's just kind of dropped, and then we cut to the next scene and everyone's getting along again. Yeah, what that gap thing? In particular, when La lana Is thinks that she's high and mighty, she's like, I'm not

going to work at the Gap for Christ's sake. But then when she's at her low moment, when she's on the couch, chain smoking, racking up money to the mine, she's like, oh, you think you're hot, ship because you work at the Gap. Like it's interesting how for her the gap is like beneath her. But then also she feels like it's being lorded over her later, right, Lena, So yeah, I wish that Vicky we just got a

little more Vicky context. But I do like the peaks you have into her life of like, I don't know, it was sweet that her parents, uh love each other, but she's very grossed out by their relationship and like, oh, good for you, Vicky, good for you. Your parents love each other. Oh I didn't read that that way at all. I read it is that they don't like each other and they like the romance is completely dead. We shipped with the door open. I thincause that's how dead the

romance I think shipping. I think that you can have romance and ship with the door open. I agree the two are not mutually exclusive, but I think it's a very naive take on Vicky's part. It's like, well, I think maybe they're they're in super love because you can if you can see someone take a ship and still

be like you like, let's smooch and frick um. So I mentioned this, but so as Lelena is like trying to sort out her money troubles and trying to get another job after she kind of like puts down working at the Gap. She then goes to her mom for a loan, and her mom suggests, well, why don't you work at a fast food restaurant. This is the scene where the R word is just casually thrown around by multiple characters. Several characters. Yeah, and not just in this scene,

although it gets it gets said other times. And Lena dismisses a job at a fast food restaurant citing a very ablest reason. I do. I do appreciate that the movie kind of makes a point to show that a job at a fast food restaurant is harder and takes more skills. She cannot she cannot add eighty five together quickly or whatever the numbers were. Because the movie does have little moments of commentary like that, like kind of class commentary, and I think it has a lot of

good moments. Yeah, there's a scene that seems to be satirizing networks like MTV and the entertainment of that era where Laney's watching a show and I forget what it's called, but it's this woman. She's like the host of this show. It's like a fashion fashion it's meant to be House of Style. Did y'all watch that? Oh my god? Empty. I might be older than you all, but it's it's

clearly meant to be MTV's House of Style. Cindy Crawford got her start on that show, like it was like it was that checked that but I think so it was like in the nineties it was MTVS Fashion and it was always kind of like edgy hip hop fashion. But yeah, it was their fashion show. Okay, So what happens in this like you know this like kind of spoof version of that on the In Your Face Network is it's this woman, she's the host of this show. And she's like today we're in I think they're in

Compton and she's where in Compton? And you can buy this this Bandanna. It's got red for crips and blue for bloods or I don't even know if I have the colors right, And she's like and it's only seventy yeah, and it's made by Donna Carro and famously a bougee

white woman. I actually love that comment. It's like the movie does try to do some nineties commentary of like that was the vibe of the nineties, like corporations and white rich people co opting like black folks and like Latino folks and like like working class like fashion and like making it a thousand dollars and then selling it

back to people exactly. Yeah. I thought that, like especially for some reason, like the TV stuff especially, I thought was really really effective with the I mean, even with the Frasier's Dad Show, where it was very clearly like parodying a lot of daytime TV where it was like, you know, exploitative thing and tragic thing where you know, he's like today we have this amazing child and and someone with Alzheimer's disease and you're just like it, that

is clear like what they're trying to do. And then I also thought it was like interesting that how when on a writer is like duped by a TV psychic and like that that was just a little montage of like predatory TV scams of the nine nineties because it was like TV College, TV Psychics and like just little ways that the culture of this time preyed on desperation and loneliness, which is like there's a different generational reboot of how to prey on desperation and loneliness. And I

thought it was like kind of a fun comment on it. Oh, the TV Psychic scene has my favorite line of the movie where when her roommate is coming to talk to her about the phone bill over the phone, the TV Psychic is like, Laney, I said that you're in great danger, dangerous, And then and then Jean in Gruffalo is like, we have a four phone. What the fuck it's from this nine number? And then you just see when on a writer like very slowly hanging up the phone. That's comedy.

I thought it was good. Yeah, Like it's like part of the reason that the ending to this movie bumps me out so much is I feel like there's so many like strong threads of like ways this movie could have gone. Characters, they could have expanded on more topics, they could have taken a little further, because it's like with Troy and Laney, like they're both shitty in their ways.

Troy is by far worse, And I would hope that if Laney had done what I wanted her to do at the end and just like got her shipped together and figured out who she was as a person and worked a retail job and wasn't a total snob, I'm sure that these would be issues that hopefully would course

correct later in her life. Troy maybe permanently broken. But like how Troy's central, Like it feels like what they're trying to ask with that character, I don't know, let me know what you think, because I was like, it seems like Troy is trying to do the thing where he's like saying something valid, but his methods are shitty and like don't make any difference for anything. Where it's

like he wants to exist outside of capitalism. He resents capitalism, he resents that you are expected, you know, certain things are expected of you to exist in a society and be considered someone worthy of respect. A valid question and like fair, but like he sucks and like he's useless and he's mean, and then in the end he's kind of like rewarded by getting everything he ever wanted. So why I mean, because he's a white guy who had a safety net the whole time. That's why I like,

at one point it's like a throwaway thing. But I think that Lena's dad set up a cushy job interview for Troy that he didn't go to, and I think he didn't go to it because he was like hanging out with her. I think that like her dad definitely is like I said, I'm a job interview and he couldn't even bother to show up. And so you're right that it's it's as someone who is a former like slacker knew a lot of like slacker types that were

anti capitalists. It's really easy to be that way when you have a safety net, when people are looking out for you and someone can make a call and get you a job. And I think Troy is very good at presenting his his rejection of all that stuff ideologically on the outside, but not so good at acknowledging what

he actually has access to, which is not nothing. Right. Yeah, And it's like Troy's life, I mean, his life would become so much more difficult if Laney and Vicky weren't constantly doing what he's yelling at them for all the time, which is working so that they all have a place to live, which Troy is not contributing to and is in fact actively hostile to them for like working so

that he has somewhere to yell at them at. Like it's just it's so messy, and it's like the movie seems to know that, but then the ending it's it's wild. It's wild. I also find it fascinating and maybe this is some irony that the movie loves to talk about. But like the the like paradox of this being a movie about characters who are like, oh my god, selling out is like the worst thing you can do, and like it might be tempting, but ultimately your loser if

you sell out. But then this was also a studio movie, and Ben Stiller said something like it's a strange thing because it was a studio movie about the ideas of commodification and descent or whatever. And the idea that it was a universal movie, meaning like the movie studio universal, a universal movie that was really sort of independent minded,

was something that we struggled with. So it's like the same studio that released Jurassic Park the year before was also releasing reality Bites and clearly made a bunch of script changes, and like all, they had all these studio notes, and it's probably the reason that Lelaney ends up with Troy at the end, because that's kind of like the more like right gretty romantic choice for her to make, which I mean, I was glad that at least, like the major players and this who worked in this movie,

I'll seem aware of that because it's like it's a pointed to just truly like what are you going to do? Like what the like? Because all of the you know, like they're all of the resources are in the hands of big studios, like, right, what the funk are you gonna do? And it it's I don't know it. Have either of you ever seen SLC Punk? I have not know I have. I've seen it many times. Do you like it? Um? I liked it when I was in high school. I rewatched it maybe two years ago. I

actually think about it. I like not to kind of spoil the ending. I don't know if you'll have like a philosop I was. I wanted to talk about the ending to SELC Punk because I think I like it better. Yeah, the the ending is great because it's like, oh, this whole time, all of that ideology was BS and you sold that in the end and turns out you just like we're a poser like everybody else, and that's fine. It's called growing up. The end, like, I kind of

love that. Yeah, like so, I the only time I've seen Slski punk I was on Molly Nights, but I really loved him. But but the ending, in spite of me being high out of my mind, the ending really stuck with me as one of the more like, you know, it doesn't feel good to watch, but it is an honest depiction of like. And also it's a Matthew Willard joint Caitlin, Oh, I I've unfamiliar. I just have yet to succeeded. And unlike Reality Bites, it's a true indie movie.

It made like two dollars and it like premiered at Sundance And but but yeah, like the the way, I was sort of wondering if Reality Bites would take that sort of option where it's like, you know, it seems inevitable that this grew at least you know, two or three out of the four are gonna end up selling out in the way that adults are forced to under

capitalism more often than not. But I was wondering how self aware it's like that it didn't do it in a very self aware because even in the like the closing line of the movie, Laney is like, it's acknowledging that Laney has used her privilege to get to where she's at with Troy, because it's her doubt on the phone who you know, like all four boomer criticism of like look at this, you know how they opened the movie with like your revolution, you know, you traded your

revolution for shoulder pads. Fair, fair criticism. But it's like our characters are well on their way to doing the same fucking thing by the end of the movie, but it's not quite willing to like go there and admit it in a way that s LC punk was like, yeah, little or to suit Now he's uh, he just got to the law school. He went to law school. He went to play shaggy. He's a corporate stooge. I mean,

Lillard's taking that Scooby Money can't even blame. It's funny, like we're like, okay, so in the universe of the film, nobody, only certain people are allowed to sell out if if the clock spins five years later, like are we to believe that Troy is still under employed and like blowing off job interviews and sort of intentionally getting fired. And Lena is like, certainly they would have, like you would have to get a job at some point, Like that's

life and life is unsustainable otherwise. Right, It's like he's not gonna If there's one person who's not going to singlehandedly dismantle American capitalism, it's Troy for Reality bite like he's gonna have to do something at some point. And I feel like such a like a mom saying that, where I'm like, get your life together, young man. But you know what I do starts a podcast. No, he starts a podcast and we're a part of the problem. Yeah, you think Troy from Reality, but it's wouldn't be fucking

podcast two he's got. He's probably got two podcasts he has. Oh you know who he is. I know exactly who he is. He is like the leftist podcaster who was all like, oh, like class solidarity but makes three dollars a year via Patreon, but you would never know it because he talks about like class workfare every week in the podcast. That's who he never volunteered a weaken his life. Yeah, absolutely no. No. Oh, look, we're all a bunch of fucking sellouts. We're a feminist podcast on the I Heart

Radio network. At the end of the day, if it's like, well, shit, fuck, we're the end of SLC punk. Um, okay, yeah, does anyone have anything else they want to talk about? It's everything ahead that might have been it. Yeah, the same. Does this movie pass the Bechtel test? It does. Yeah, We've got We've got some conversations, We've got some various combinations. It's a lot of Lelaney and Vicky I think is

most of the Bechtel test passing convos. But what about that nipple scale, the famous flawless nipple scale where we write the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples. Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I feel like it's maybe like a two or a two and a half, just one of those kind of split down the middle ones, or maybe it's less than that. Let me talk through this. Um. I appreciate that this is a movie, like written by a woman writing about

her own experiences. It's coming from a pretty privileged place because at least the characters it's like, yeah, they're broke, but they're broke in the way that white college graduates from supportive middle class families working entry level jobs are broke broke, not poor. Right, So it just feels gross to make a movie where things like money and labor and socioeconomic class are major themes of the movie, but

the movie only features educated, middle class white people. UM. I do not like that the movie is predicated on which of these two guys is she going to choose because she has to pick one because hetero romance must prevail, and then she picks the guy who has been actively cruel to her throughout the entire movie. I hate that for her. Um. There are some things I do like. Um,

there's some interesting satire. There is a queer character whose queerness is normalized within the story, even though that character gets the least amount of screen time in this version of the story at least. Um, But it's you know, queer representation that was I would say, generally more positive than you would tend to find in this era. Um. And yeah, as I think I like Trailed Off, But it's a a woman writing this screenplay about her life,

about her experiences and her relationships. It seems like it got studio notes to death almost uh seventy different drafts kind of thing. But um, I don't know, it's just have I come to any conclusion. No, I'm gonna give it two nipples. I'll give one to one on a writer because I do love Oneona, and I'll give the other nipple to screenwriter Helen child Dress, who again has been kind of like left out of the conversation about this movie and like isn't given credit where credit is due. Yeah,

so there you have it. I'm gonna go two and a half on this one. Maybe maybe I'm talented to do three, but I I the the centering of the relationship is just like so frustrating that I guess I'm going to do too and a half. Um again, yes, like this is yet another you know, quote on quote generation to finding movie that solely focuses on you know, middle class uh six white people. I do appreciate that there is some different class backgrounds and discussion of class.

I feel like most movies like this, just like or most you know, coming of age movies, class exists in a complete and total void. So at least then that's not the case. Um, this movie asks a lot of interesting questions. I think that, you know, the answers are really complicated because we also like our generation is not going to have the answers and uh, you know gen Z best of luck, but and then there's no more generations. Uh So Ultimately, yeah, I think that this movie asks

a lot of interesting questions. It challenged me in some ways, it frustrated me and others, and uh it made me want to rewatch SLC Punk um. But I do appreciate that this movie, um is you know, written by a woman who has lived out a similar experience. Um. I think that her career since is very indicative of how disposable, um, women creatives can be in Hollywood, especially during this era.

I'm glad that there has been some motion against that since it doesn't seem to be something that happens quite as much, and that there are a lot of women in high positions in this production. You have a woman editor of a woman writer, you have a woman producer.

But yeah, I don't know if this this Honestly, this movie is like challenging for for me, and uh, you know, being an adult sellout is fucking embarrassing and it's also unfortunately kind of a part of being an American and it Uh I guess that that's all I have to say about it. Uh yeah, So I'll go two and a half and I'm giving them all to Helen because, um, it's ridiculous that justice for Helen event Stiller is getting

credit for ship shoot it. Yeah yeah, bridget Yeah, I'm going First of all, I love that we're just explicitly identify playing as adults sellouts, and this feminist adults sell out is going two and a half nipples, and I completely agree, mostly for Helen children. It's like justice for her. I had no idea about the ways that she was sort of written out of her own experience, and that just sucks that this is a movie about her life that is so accredited to Ben Stiller, a man, that

she just gets written out of it. Like I was googling pictures, it was difficult to even find pictures of her with the cast, and like, this was her story, So most of those nipples are going to her. Also, Jeanine Garoffalo, I have a soft spot for je Garoffalo

supporting casting. Yeah, in this movie, I once loved it as a youth, watching it as an adult, it's I agree, it's challenging, but yeah, I I like a movie that makes it attempt to show queerness in the nineties in a way that it's not so traumatic and Steve Zon doesn't die or something like I Think for the time, I'm gonna go too and a a half of fair. Yeah, Bridget, thank you so much for joining us, Thank you for returning. Come back any time. Oh it's always a blast. Anytime

you're you're about to get sick of me? Impossible, can't happen, won't happen? Tell us all about your your new show on cool Zone. Oh yes. So Internet Hate Machine is an exploration of kind of an unpleasant topic, which is the online harassment of women, specifically black women, but women of color in general, and how I believe that is connected to our current sort of political and social healthscape. I guess I'll say, uh, and so yeah, it's it's

but it's I swear it's not dark. It's not a start of it sounds, but yeah, it's an exploration of the ways that all of these things online, the way that black women have been treated, have gotten us to a place where those same tactics and those same ills impact all of us and really make it hard for us to have a functioning democracy. So if that sounds like something that you're interested in exploring, please check it out. The new season or the first season drops October. So excited,

thank you, thank you so much for coming back. We'll be we'll be plugging the hill out of the show and anything else you want to plug. As far as your social media handles, yeah, you can follow me on Instagram at bridget Marie in d C or on Twitter at bridget Marie. And I have my own long running, long running two years podcast, podcast World. I'm I'm proudly claiming that's a long time. Two years. That's a long

time called there are No Girls on the Internet. Please check it out amazing and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast. It is five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes. You can also get our merch at t public dot com slash the backtel Pass. This is such a funny way to end the episode after reality bites

or like in conclusion, capitalism our exclusion. Give us five dollars a month and support us on Hellscape social media platforms that are actively running the world. Um, you know, or we can just go fund ourselves whatever you want. Uh. On that note, let's go watch Fraser's dad's TV show. Honestly, I would watch it if I had pneumonia. Yeah, let's let's do it. Okay, Bye,