Practical Magic

unusual recording situation today, which is kind of nice. Yeah, let's talk about it. And we're in your bed. We're in my bed, which is where we usually record the Matreon episodes if you're a member of our Patreon aka Matreon. Yeah you know, but today we're doing a main feed episode in the bed, which is weird because I'm used to be in loose in the bed, but now I'm like, no button up, not all button's about a couple of them.

I think this will be a nice sort of blend of the silliness that we engage in a bit more on the Matreon, but also perhaps a bit more structured like a main feed episode. Life is so complicated. So normally we have a guest. We don't have one this time because we were about to record with our guests and then something came up, but we weren't able to reschedule with them because I'm about to go into surgery. Yes, I'm about to have my sludge pouch removed. It's probably

it'll be gone. It's my gall bladder, but it's really a sludge pouch. And if you need more information about what I'm talking about, you'll just simply have to listen to Sludge an American health care story, my podcast about how the system here is very funked up and biased and broken. So give that listen. But so, we weren't able to reschedule with our guest before my surgery, so it's just Jamie and I doing this. Bed keeping is

but not too loose. Yeah, And this is the last sludgey episode of the Bechtel Cast, which I think we're all very grateful for it. It's sludge free after this. My mom sending you an edible arrangement. We're telling me this earlier. I was like, well, I don't know, like and she asked for your address. So maybe, but maybe she's going to get him. She's just gonna show up. She's gonna use her jet blue points. Oh good for Jill. She loves her jet blue points. And I think all

of that past the Bechtel tests. Oh yes it did. Wow, great structure. Um so we analyze. Actually, I think my sludge identifies as a man because it's vengeful trying to ruin your life and invading my body and space and only a man. And it is nice too because it just means that will inherently miss it less that's gone anyway.

Oh man, I want to make a cartoon of like you're slow singing like, don't make me go do like wait there, don't humanize my sludge the anthropomorphs like wait before you behead me, doctor, I just want to plead my case. Oh well, well, what if my sludge is like a witch sort like and it's like being wrongfully persecuted and really it's just it's suckers. Oh, today's gonna be fun. Uh So we hadized movies using the Bechtel test, which I think we will. We brought up the mail

identifying sledge. A lot of it passed. Yes, uh so used the Bechtel Test sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, as a jumping off point for discussion, and the Bechtel test has has a couple of different requirements. Yeah, it requires that there'll be two female identifying characters with names. We'll talk to each other about something other than a man or a male sledge, of course, for more than

two lines of dialogue. Incredible. It's almost like with all those steps, it's almost like it's like a spell in a spell book it's true, or a curse stories curse. I wonder how many times it's been said in movies. It has to be a lout there like it's a spell or of course, I feel like there's like a lot of Halloween time d cooms that probably used that. While we're talking about Practical Magic today, it's been a long request. Yeah, it's just the two of us today.

We're keeping it loose, so let's get into it. What's your history with the film, Jamie So I first saw Practical Magic in Lansing, Michigan last year as a part of the Capital City Film Festival. Is a show called Destroy All Cinema, and I was riffing live riffs. You'll love to hear him on Practical Magic. What I try hadn't seen with a comedy collective based out of Lansing called Comedy Coven, So if you live in that area, please check them out. So Coven of Witches perhaps exactly.

It consists of Tricia Chamberlain, Stephanie ander Chan, and Emily Surgett. They're all great. But so I first saw it in a live capacity, and it was kind of fun to try to piece together this movie in real time and try to be funny because I was just like, I don't know what's happening. Um, And then I've seen a couple of times to prep for this, but pretty short history. Okay,

what's your history with Practical Magic. This is one of those movies that I wasn't very familiar with throughout most of my life, but I knew that it was something that we were getting requested all the time from listeners. So I was like, oh, I should check this out because eventually I'm sure we'll do an episode on it. So I watched it probably for the first time, I would say, like around a year ago. Also, and glad, I did you know? It's a fun movie. It is

a weird movie. Weird it's structurally a bit confusing, but I also do get why people love it, So yeah, for sure. I think if I had um seen it as a younger person, I would have like a much stronger attachment to it and a pretty iconic cast as well. Like it's quality regardless, getting to see Sandra bl Like and Nicole Kidman as sisters, rules, Diane Weest is their Stockard Channing is there, and a young Evan Rachel would oh yeah, yeah, one of the daughters, So there is

I mean there. I get it's a very confusing movie, but everyone is committed a hundred percent, and so we simply have no choice but to stand. Um, yeah, should we get into it? I mean, I don't know what was your actually I am curious what was your interest in witchy culture and stuff like that when you were younger? Were you really interested in it? No? Not, not, I would say at all. Um, I wasn't like I hate it and I think it's stupid or anything like that.

It just isn't something that ever piqued my interest. Well, what about you? I thought I was a witch until I was about eleven years old, and not a Harry Potter, which as all listeners at the podcast, will know I was not a Harry Potter stand. As a child, I thought I was like a practical magic kind of which because I had I have two relatives who run a new Age shop in Massachusetts, I was very steeped in it's from a very young age, kind of like the

one that Sally runs in the movie. Yeah, yeah, except like I mean even more so, but it was they do not work there anymore, but yeah, like my my aunt and uncle worked at a new Age shop and would do readings and would do and you know, we're very nurture. I think it's weird because I grew up going to church, but I think that like new Age stuff was what appealed to me more in terms of like religion and like shaping my self identity. But I

really love it. And it's funny because I think that this movie is kind of peak, like scratching the surface of that culture in kind of a very basic way that I think probably would have been appealing to me had I seen it at the time. But yeah, I'm always just any time that there's a movie with which is I'm like, oh yes, because my mom fully was like, you're a witch, you have powers? It was like, yes, that's so cool. Yeah, it was cool. The growing I'm

thinking you're a witch. I can't recommend it enough. It is very fun. My like family because I was effectively raised as an atheist, Like it was a completely secular household, so I had no religion growing up, and I think because of that, I just nothing like supernatural or like mystic or magical or anything like that really appealed to me. Is something that I would want to, like embrace is anything other than fiction, Like I love reading fiction about it.

But I wasn't like I was like this is going to be a part of my lifestyle or anything like that. Totally I would appealed about it to me as a kid, especially, was like I didn't like going to tread like it was weird. I think that like we just went because my parents were like, we're supposed to do that. But like I went to Catholic churches for a little while, I went to like a Congregational church for a little while. I mean my parents and my oun uncle called it paganism.

I don't know if this technically even falls under that umbrella, but what appealed to me and what appealed to me about witchy culture was that it was the only like semi religious structure that empowered you a little bit and gave you some control as opposed to the shame and the constant asking for forgiveness that from the other religions that I had experienced, where like this was like, Oh, it's like, uh, you know, you're being empowered to you know,

whether you're casting spells or doing rituals or whatever. It is like you have some ability to cause change and make things happen. Interesting. So there's a whole discussion to be had kind of about which is witchcraft the history there in all that, Yeah, we can, We'll get there, but for now, let's discuss the story it recap Okay, So we begin learning that women in the Owens family

are witches and they have magical powers. The first of them was their ancestor Maria from colonial Puritan times, Yes, and she was banished on an island with her unborn child for being a witch. And she stayed there waiting for her lover to come rescue her, but he never came, so she cast a spell that she would never again feel the agony of love, which eventually turned into a curse on any man who would love an Owens woman, and that curse will kill them, and it will straight

up kill them. Then we meet to Owen's sisters as children, Sally and Alien. Their father died because of this curse. There's like this beetle that comes around and makes this like chirping sound, and that's how you know the man is going to die soon, right. I love that plot device. I don't know, it's like a beetle or something. And then their mom dies I guess shortly after that of

a broken heart. So the two sisters go to live with their two aunts, Franny that's Stockard Channing's character, and Jet Diane Weest and their aunts are also witches who teach them magic. They live somewhere in New England. I was guessing either they I think they live on an island. I think that they might live like on Nantucket. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It gives it has given me some Nantucket vibes. Yeah, I would say Nantucket or

Martha's vineyards. Yeah, surprise it didn't take place in like Salem, but who knows you, I don't know. And everyone in the town hates the whole family for being witches, which which you're a bit. You're like, let's punch that up, all right? There? Does it pass the back to test? Though maybe it does, But I was just like, man, there are three writers on this movie, and we couldn't we can't do better than which, which you're a bit. The kids are like not smart enough to come up

with something more clever. Kids are geniuses. Sorry, there should have been in Shakespearean pros there i ambic pentameter. Yes, okay, So we get to know the two girls a little bit better. Jilly can't wait to fall in love, but Sally says she hopes she never falls in love because

she sees how much agony it causes people. So Sally casts a spell, a love spell about a man who she thinks will never exist, because if he doesn't exist, she won't have to fall in love with him, and then he won't die, um, and she won't have to deal with a broken heart. Right. This imaginary man can

flip pancakes. His favorite shape is a star, and he has one green eye and one blue eye, which is like, I mean, I feel like there are people out there like that, Like I think it's kind of a low yeah, Like I mean, I guess that finding some with two different colored eyes is a little more difficult. But I'm like, pant likes pancakes and stars. That's like you're describing a five year old like, but sure, yes. So then we

cut to the sisters as adults. Sally is Sandra Bullock, Jilly is Nicole Kidman, and Jilly runs away with this guy that she's in love with Nicole Kidmen. In terms of having her Australian accent not out, it's so different from movie to movie to the point where I'm like, is it like it depends on how she's being directed, But it's like it's like sort of at Bay. Really I wasn't noticing that. But also there's certain I don't know. I guess my Nicole Kidman meter is very sensitive because

sometimes I'm just like, how did you come on? There's a few but whatever, I mean, you do watch a lot of big little eyes, so that makes sense. Yeah, And and she, you know, at the end of the first season, for some reason, she's just like, I'm Australian, and I was like, okay, we know, but you're not supposed to be right now where we'll have a talk about it. So Julie runs away with this guy, but meanwhile Sally wants to have like kind of a more

like grounded quote normal life, like the nuclear family. Yes, and then Sally spots this guy, Michael, and she and him suddenly fall in love, almost as if a spell were cast on as it we don't know. And then they start kissing in the street. A Faith Hill song is playing. Is it? It's this kiss? Yes, this kiss one of the many moments this movie is totally all over. It's just completely totally inconsistent to the where you're just

like constantly suffering from whiplash from the previous scene. Faith Hill, I think, is one of the first, all best, second of all, most jarring from all the South, Like this is supposed to be like kind of like a you know, like you kind of expected more Fiona Appoly song there, like at least like an artist with some more mysterious witchy vibes. Oh sure, I wouldn't describe faith Hill as

that artist. Well, especially because like if you hear country music like that, it conjures up the South, you know, the American South and not New England. So yeah, it was it was choices were made. I don't I don't think it's a bad choice, that it a weird choice, but I do like it. As with most things in this movie, you're like sure. So cut to a few years later, Sally and Michael are married. They have two daughters, hers, but that death beetle starts coming around and starts chirping

a little bit outside. Sorry, I don't effects. What if beetle juice can turn into a beetle and then it's the same. What if beetle juice in practical magic take place in the same extended universe? I would buy it. I would. I wish that the faith Hill song played during beetle Juice? This what another faith Hill song? I can't name a second one. I don't know nothing against her. I just wasn't really there, sure you know, I just

know that one. Okay, So the beetles chirping, and Sally's husband gets hit by a truck and dies in a very dramatic the fruit flying in that scene because he's a fruit salesman and slow mo fruit. And then we're like, oh no, her love kill to him because women's emotions are lethal. Ah God, Well, anyways, fruitgo's lion? Yes, bye bye yep. So then Sally goes to her aunt's and she's like, this curse is real and it's why my

husband died. And then they revealed that they had cast a spell on the two of them to make them fall in love, and she's like even more furious, and she tells them to bring him back from the dead, because their witches, they have the ability to do that, but they refuse because if they do that, he'll come back all dark and unnatural. So Sally just has to accept what has happened, and she is grieving, and then she decides to stop doing magic. Meanwhile, Jilly has been

traveling around. She's partying, she's meeting a bunch of people. She's got a wig on and a classic kidman wig. I've had a shout out I have. Well, I'll do it in a second. But there was recently a power ranking of all of Nicole Kimman's wigs. She was not wearing a wig in a movie. May not know what her hair is. I thought that was I just thought that was her natural hair in this movie. I they're on the wig ranking. I mean, and I'm just using this, Okay,

I've visited this a few days ago. Uh, this is from ques dot com by Singia sing kurts Um, and it's a ranking of all of her wigs. Based on this list, it does seem like she is usually wearing a wig, even when it seems like she's not, including in Um, like I thought that was her natural hair in Mulin Rouge. Apparently it is not. It is a wig. So I just go off the assumption that Nicole Kimman is always wearing a wig. What if she is bald underneath,

making her the baldest woman in charge? That would explain so much, really, sure Wood, we can't. But anyways, she's got she's got intense nineties banks and I love it in this movie definitely, And I think right now she's in Arizona with this guy, Jimmy Angel Love Sure, who turns out to be abusive. So Sally goes to rescue Jilly from him, but he kidnaps them both and holds them hostage. So they drug him but accidentally overdose and kill him, and they're like, oh my god, what are

we gonna do. We're going to go to jail. The cops won't believe it's self defense, so Jilly has the idea that they cast the spell on him to bring him back to life, and since he's already dark and unnatural, they figure it won't matter, right, so they go back to the aunt's house. They do the spell, they put the line in the coconut, etcetera. Sure that happens, right then? Yeah? Um? And then he comes back, but he is aggressive and he starts choking Jilly, so they knock him out and

then they bury him in the backyard. But they decide not to tell the aunts, right, but Jimmy's spirit starts haunting them and he ruins their midnight margarite a night. Rude, Rude. They got one of the most the most iconic scene of this movie and the most totally dissonant, I think, because there are children upstairs and they are screaming, screaming,

and then they're immediately sober. And in one moment they're like laughing and dancing and having a good time, and then the next moment they're like calling each other like sluts and witches. And then the next scene requires for them to be stone cold sober, even though we just saw them being fully blackout drunk. You know, it's just it is what it is. We just have to we just have to buy it their witches they can they have to spell the sober or is it a curse? Oh?

It keeps getting me. It's funny, Okay. So then this guy Gary shows up. He is a detective investigating the disappearance of Jimmy Angelo, and Sally gets flustered and accidentally tells him that Jimmy kidnapped Jilly. But they got away using his car because they like have his car, and he's like, why is his car in your driveway? And they're like, oh, yeah, sloop sees. But they're like, but we don't know where he is. So Gary keeps hanging

around town. He's trying to gather information. And then Sally's daughters find Sally's spell book or curse book, and they find that the spell of the made up man that she made when she was little, like the guy who has the eyes and the pancakes and the stars, and they start to realize that Gary has all of those traits that she described in the spell curse. They're like, wait, Gary, do you like pancakes? They're like, oh my god, it's that he can flip them. You're right, he doesn't even

like them. We just can flip them. He knows him away once he slipped Gary god honestly setting a pretty low bar for for the dream man, but sure. And then Gary finds Jimmy's ring because a frog barth sit up, which he loved to see. Good practical effect, practical magic, look at that little cinema knowledge. And then he's like, you ladies are in big trouble. You better get a lawyer.

And then Sally decides to tell him the truth, which she sort of does, except that she's like speaking in riddles, and then they start kissing, and then she notices that he has one green eye and one blue eye and she's like, no, I can't. And then Jimmy's spirit shows up and Gary is like, what the funk is happening?

And then the sisters kill the spirit, or at least they think they do, and then Sally tells Gary that she had cast this spell when she was a little girl, and she's like, that's why you're here and we'll never know if this is even true love or if it's just this spell curse thing, and he's like, I don't believe in curses. I wished for you too, and we're like, oh my, goh, Mike. But then we find out that Jimmy's spirit is still around and has possessed jillyhoo Sees.

So they need a coven of twelve women to banish this spirit. So Sally, who has been made like the top of the call tree at her daughter's school because Jilly cast a spell to make her that, So she called all the moms from her daughter's school to come help and be a part of this coven. And together they exercise Jilly and kill Jimmy's ghost and sweep his dust out of the house because women be cleaning, be sweeping,

but also which imagery brooms. And then Sally and Gary kiss because Gary comes back, and then Fun and then they fly off the roof because it's Halloween. And that is the story. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back. Welcome back. Oh boy, there's there's a lot to discuss,

as per huge. So, I mean, something that I wanted to just sort of get out there right at the jump is the this movie is an extremely white movie, as our most movies still, but particularly I mean in

the late nineties. This is very very typical. But I think it is kind of especially glaring when you're tackling the subject of witches and being kind of mothered for for that, because just historically is worth mentioning that women of color, and specifically black women have been mothered and accused of being which is just as much as white women. But as is normal with American history, the struggle of women of color with the exact same issues compounded with race,

are kind of generally erased from the narrative. And I think that we see that in virtually every story about the Salem witch Trials too, Like, there were also black women were killed and demonized during the witch trials, and yet most of the narratives that we see you're focused on white ladies. So um, so yeah, I just wanted to mention that right at the jump of Like, I love which representation, but it is just not extended to women who are not white in American movies very often.

Even I mean, I think that our other main witchy movie we've covered, The Craft, one of the witches in that movie is black, but she's criminally underwritten and just done a disservice by the movie as a whole, and the focus is always on the white girls. I mean, we've kind of revisited these late nineties classic mistakes over and over, but this movie is certainly guilty of it

as well. Yeah, another thing, and this is less of a kind of historical erasure thing and more of just like I suppose, metaphorical or just sort of like a thing that happens in the narrative. But so the Owens women are, they're always mothered right by the community who has cast them out and called them witches and bitches um. And then there's a moment towards the end as Sally is like calling the phone tree and she's like, hey, you know that thing that everyone's been whispering about me

about how I'm a witch? Well it's true. So she effectively comes out. And then a scene right after that is like her colleague at like the like which shop that she runs, Uh, that character is like did you hear Sally just came out? Which of course is language used for queer like that, And so it's like taking the like borrowing or maybe even appropriating this experience that we thrust upon queer people, a burden that we put upon them because of how heteronormative society is. And it's like, well,

if you don't. If you are not hetero, then it is your burden responsibility to come out. And then to ascribe that to what Sally is doing I thought was peculiar at it was just another bizarro misguided like what was the objective of this scene? So yeah, that those are a couple of things right off right at the top, that we're not the best choices to be made. Yeah, so there's yeah, there's definitely a lot of issues. What is What did you like about this movie? What did

you feel this movie did well? Well, there's a fair amount because it is a predominantly female cast. There it is largely about women, at least of the characters that we get to know the most supporting each other. They do not have the support of their community until the very end. But even that's nice when like the moms who have been like you know, making snide comments and casting them out of the community. Uh, they even come to help a woman in need. So I like that

it's largely about like women supporting women, says the supporting sisters. Um, there's three generations of sisters and which is cool. Cool, they're all living together, they're all practicing, you know, witchcraft. I like that they also make mistakes. It's not like the like the perfect female friendships that we sort of see in movies where they're like, you know, women can only be friends and connected if they do it perfectly,

which is a trope that drives me insane. And I mean, every every woman in this movie is human, right as well as being a witch u and and makes mistakes that the aunts make the well intentioned mistake of being like, but we wanted you to have love in your life and she's like, well, now my husband is dead, and where where's this scene where Sandra Bullock is staring at her husband's grave Because I miss you so fucking much.

We should do another episode on the Rock. I feel like with the benefit of you know, year and from like, I think, I think there's more to say that I missed you so much. But then it was like the the inverse of um like these like perfect female friendships and relationships is something else we see that's very troubling movies, which is women hating each other for no real irrationally.

And neither of those things happened in this movie, right, which is great, and I especially do I mean, and there are problematique things that happen inside of this relationship. But I do like the relationship between Sally and Julie.

I like that they're very different, but the I don't know, just even like the little touch of like they can feel, they can instinctively know when the other person is in trouble, especially when Jilly, even though they have like their differences in conflicts that um Sally is Julie's first call when she is being abused was a moment that I was like, Oh, that's like a real you know, like that was, Oh, that that's like a beautiful sister thing that actually felt

in a movie that does not feel grounded in reality

at all, like a more grounded good moment. And and I know that it's like, you know, we're not endorsing murder here, but the fact that you know, their bond is so strong and Sally generally, I mean, she believes Julie like they it's Sally's annoyed that Jillie's in this predicament, which I don't think it's necessarily fair, but she is also like, I obviously believe you, and uh, if we got to kill this guy, we gotta kill this guy, you know, which you know that there's not a one

to one application in the real world. But I do like that, like intense loyalty and trust and belief of each other for sure, that they even make a pact that like they must die at the same time, like if one of them it's going to die, it's gonna die. I love childhood pats and the people who take them seriously. Like my me and my two cousins were so so

we all thought we were witches. This was like in the same time, and we made a pact we were like between ten and twelve where we were like, oh, well, if we get married someday we have the other, we won't choose a maid of honor. Both of you will be my maids of honor. And then they're keeping that promise, which I'm like, oh, that's so It's so nice and it makes me cry to think about. But I'm also like, we were stupid. Do whatever you want. And also being a maid of honor is really hard. I don't want

to do it twice. But you know, here we are, you know what I mean, Just the closeness that they show, and I mean I was even getting some someon Louise vibes from this movie. But it's it's like just because it was our redhead and brunette with an inseparable blond. No, because they kill a man, they oh, that's true, and they have to They think about going to the police, but they're like, the police won't believe us, because police often do not believe women if they're being you know,

if they're victims of assault or anything like that. But this movie is if Thelma and Louise were witches and which Susan and Susan Sarandon falls in love with the Harvey Kitel character, So I thought that was very true funny. But yeah, I mean they kill they kill an abuser. Uh, they contemplate going to the police, saying it was self defense. They know they won't be believed, so they have to take matters into their own hands. And that's pretty much

what Louise. That's true, and it's and you know, maybe this movie is a little less gracefully written, but but all the main points were there this movie. This is also like kind of unrelated, but this movie is directed by Joan Didion's nephew, So if not feminist icon, feminist icon adjacent to be sure. Griffin done, Griffin done, yeah, and it was written by let's see screenwriters were Robin's Swygert. Yes,

Robin Swygert is very cool. She has written a lot of iconic movies including Little Women, which will be covering on the cast soon, Matilda, The Jane Austen Book Club, and she wrote she helped. She was one of the credited writers on Memoirs of a Geisha and Curious Case of Benjamin Button. She's written a lot interesting um. She was one of the writers, as was Akiva Goldsman. I

don't really know her background. His background he wrote Batman Forever Batman and Robin I Robot I am Legend Cinderella Man, so this is kind of an outlier in his catalog. And then the final writer was Adam Brooks. Adam Brooks has credits including Wimbledon, Bridget Jones, The Edge of Reason, Okay, go Off King. So it's written co written by two men, one woman, but it's based on a novel by a woman, Alice Hoffman, who is an icon in that she lives

in Boston. Yes, I saw a lot of signed. Alice Hoffman's locally swish, but she's she's a She's written a lot of popular books I don't. I don't really know. I mean, I would be curious to see to know how this strays from the from the book, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I have not read, as per usual book podcast, haven't read a book, so so sorry. But if you do have insight, um, feel free to offer it in the comments. Um. And if you've read a book, feel free to just tweet at us and brag about it,

because it ain't easy. Who has the talks are long? I fall asleep. So yeah, I mean, other things to like about this movie I think are that. I mean, yeah, it's just it's just largely a story about women supporting each other. Because as you as you you know already pointed out, it's Sally helping Jilly with her abusive boyfriend. Like it's just no questions asked, She just like drops everything,

gets on the next flight and us to help her. Uh. Then we see the scene where Jilly learns that Sally has never picked at the top of the phone tree chain thing at her daughter's school, and she goes and cast that spell that so that she's at the top. It's very very lovely, like the portrayal of motherhood I thought was lovely and or you know, just female gradianship in general, because we're talking about the aunts, um, the sisters.

The sisterhood is I love. I do love in in movies when two women band together to kill a predator, it is very cathartic and fun to watch, especially when it's a frosty tipped loser like Jimmy Angel Love he was full spiritually had frosty tips, though he definitely spiritually had them. I also like that, Um, they were very different,

as you already said. Also like they had very different lifestyles, like just it's all about like going on and fucking a bunch of people, it seems, whereas Sally wanted the more kind of traditional nuclear family unit lifestyle. But like neither of them ever judged the other for the they wanted.

There were some like light teasing, which feels kind of on par for how sisters treat each other, but like, yeah, it did feel like there wasn't really a value judgment placed on either of them, even by the movie on like this is just how this character is chosen to live,

and both of them. And it's also like because I you know, like a red flag that I would immediately assume because they are kind of as I love that they're different, but they're you know, they're written kind of like trophy different, Like this is the fun one and this is the one that wants the family, Like it's basically like the Charlotte and the Samantha, right, which but but but I feel like what would normally happen which

doesn't here? Which is great? Is that um, the fun one quote unquote is either mocked or punished in some way for being you know, like sexually active, which is like such a you know, age old trope. But they both, I mean, they both get into pretty deep ship and like it. I don't think that necessarily one of them is more screwed over than the other because you know, Nicole Kidman, although it is she's the one that ends up I think the only difference is the men that

they end up with, at least briefly. Um is that Nicole Kidmen, the sexually active independent uh you know, left her hometown one is the one that ends up in a relationship with an abuser, whereas Sally, who wants the nuclear family, ended up with a sweet pie who loved her but then was hit by a truck because she

loved him too. Much right, But then also like because Nicole Kidman's character ends up with this abuser who they then kill and then she doesn't like get another guy at the end, which is great, Yeah, but which is great, But I feel like that's almost maybe like nineties narratives kind of punishing her, maybe arguably for like you mess you had a shot and you messed it up. But this this nice lady, she had a husband and yes

he died because the Beatle was there. But also then he gets she gets to fall she gets to fall in love with this other guy. Yeah, that would say. So that's like, yeah, I totally see what you're saying.

And the fact that Sandra Bullock gets to date two great guys and Nicole Kipman gets one horrible abuser um is kind of like and it's like to the point where you're like, I don't even know that the writers were consciously making that value judgment, but it does sort of when you're in over analysis moment, you're like, the optics aren't great, and of course, like you and I don't see like a woman getting a relationship as a reward the way that like a lot of narratives but

this but this narrative does see first as a reward. Every movie considers hetero relationship between two boring people the best, the best, the us that you can expect from life. Um so yeah. And and it also you know, like people in who desire a nuclear family, it's not like they don't sometimes end up in abusive relationships, and you know, reinforcing the idea that every nuclear family is impervious to abuse and conflict. It's a dairy Hollywood narrative that you're fed.

Um so, yes, maybe we are over analyzing it a little bit, but it's how we feel. That's our job. Okay, that's our job. That's how that's why you pay zero dollars to listen to this. Okay, we've gotta take a quick break, but let's come back soon, shall we. Yeah, let's great, and we're back. Well, I can't believe you cast so many spells? Or were they curses? During that that break? They were curses? I liked, all right, what

would you like to discuss next? Kind of continue? Do me a little bit off of the romantic interests that the movie has for the characters. I feel, and I say this a lot, but here we go again. I feel that the romantic storyline between Sandra Bullocks character Sally and Aidan Quinn Gary is not necessary and probably didn't need to be in the movie. My guess is this is a studio notes relationship, or I feel I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the original the novel

and it was just adapted that way. I hard to say. We can't make that call at all, having not read, but either way, I would have liked the story a bit better if it had just been two women having to deal with this abuser. They kill him accidentally. Again, we don't endorse murder on the Bectel cast. Yeah, but this is a it's a movie, but it's a movie, and so killing in the movie, right, they have to

deal with the aftermath of that. I think that could have been handled just as well and effectively had there not been this romantic storyline wedged in, because that ends up being a weird thing where he stops doing his job as a criminal investigator because if this spell curse that she's cast and he's like, yeah, we've ruled his death as an accident, and we we don't know this body is not anywhere. We never found the body. We don't know what happened, but my job as a criminal investigator,

I'm just gonna put that on the back burner. Just with this woman, it does feel like and like his character Ultimately, it feels like an attempt at raising steaks because he's brought in a like oh no, now there's someone on their tail. But yeah, he's kind of like the way his character is treated as like, oh, like, you don't get the feeling that if he finds out, he's going to be like, you're going to jail. Like

it doesn't really heighten the stakes that much. Is just for me, it was like just a distraction of like I guess aid and Quinn is here or whatever. I don't know. I wasn't a big fan of that either. I thought that, you know, I would have liked a little more of maybe the daughters there was other use of that real estate or that the aunts can do something. Yeah, the fact him being there is an obstacle, fine, But the fact that then he and Sally end up in

a relationship, uh didn't work for me. And he was never even like a particularly like he just doesn't because he's immediately like there's there's like chemistry between them you're like, he doesn't seem like a particularly like difficult obstacle, Like I don't know, right. Um. The fact also that one of the huge vehicles that like drives this whole narrative is the idea of like romantic love and it's like, so it's in love with who, who's in a relationship?

How does that affect our lives? Like, so let's talk about that too, because that was like one of the things on on this rewatch where you're like, we really only with some exceptions, like there's a little spell that she does at the school. There's like small little plot spells that we see that we're like, oh, that's she's stirring her coffee with magic, like basic kind of stuff.

They You're like, Okay, they can move things with their minds, that's cool, But you really only ever see their magic in practice as it is related to men um and

as it is related to their like different relationships. And I think that that is like another thing that you're just like like there, you know, I would have liked to see, like what can they actually do outside of navigating around this curse that I think is also inherently like there's something did in there too, where the concept of the curses you know, any man or is it a spell though it's a curse, it's always a curse.

But the idea that you know, all men who ever love these women will die just sort of you know, like goes into that uh sort of nasty trope that just means like women's emotions are somehow a dangerous thing and that um, treating a woman kindly and and like loving a woman properly is somehow dooming you like it does sort of tie into and I feel like doesn't isn't really examined by the movie that much of like Reasons that which is people who are perceived to be

which is used to be executed, which was just like women with too much power, It was a fear of it was either like an excuse to get rid of woman that the powers that be didn't like uh, were stepped out of line in some way, or it was a condemnation of women in stem and like womeners and yeah, which is where usually considered thought to be witches when they were stepping outside of societal norms and and disproportionately women who were menopausal or post menopausal were so like

older or elderly women were often thought to be which is more so um poor women, widowed women or never married women were all like these types of women were to be more likely to be persecuted for being witches. Right, And so it's just like the entire culture surrounding the persecution of people accused of being witches just ties into this, like fear of women straying out of what is their

societally expected role. Right, It's just like stepping out of line means you're more likely to literally get murdered for

no reason. And I think that this movie does some things to challenge it, but it it is again a very late nineties safe challenge because most of their magic is in direct relation to hetero stuff and results, you know, the result, like you were just talking about, is romantically fulfilling hetero relationship for the character who is not more sexually active, who more subscribed to the the idea of

the American woman role. Yes, but yeah, I mean just in general, like just in terms of what I think would have been more fun to watch, just to see, you know, how they could use their magic in ways

that didn't directly relate to men, right for sure. Even so, I think It is nice to see positive representation of like witchy characters in media because media has usually done what society has done in terms of its treatment of people who were assumed to be witches, which is which is too, which is wow words, um, which is to paint them in very negative ways. Um, which characters in movies are usually like the evil, the yeah, scary bad,

which is who are evil? And the farious and I think normally jealous too is a defining quality of like the traditional Hollywood which character is that the snow white evil stepmother, which yeah, like envy is really tight in and that has kind of nothing to do with the nineties, which which is fun because I mean, which ha there, and this is kind of where this is like coming out in a moment where it's kind of like a peak like cool trendy nineties, which because it's like at

this time we have the Craft I think comes out shortly after this. We have a Craft was I think a couple years before is it before? Okay, so we have that, we have Sabrina the teenage, which Harry Potter is about to come out in a cocus pocus like the nineties is fully Halloween Halloween Town for crying outlet, Like it's like this is a big moment for sympathizing

with witch characters. Also the Witches of Eastwick, which I have not seen and don't know what the movie is about, but if it might be an example as well, I

don't know. We don't know if someone has um every time something like specifically this comes up and like, Hey, if anyone's written their thesis paper on this, email me a PDF, because I would be curious as to like, because like the mid to late nineties is loaded, like there's just this huge boost in which characters being portrayed sympathetically and not just sympathetically, but being portrayed as like

cool and aspirational, and I wonder why that is. I wonder, like societally, what was was what was going on that made that made that cool. I'm glad it happened. I would I wanted to come back because it was you know, inclusive this time. Yeah, definitely. It was a good departure from the way which has had previously been represented, which is also not which is also not at all reflective of the women who were actually condemned for being which is throughout history. So it's just been so muddied and

it's weird. I mean, I I like the the all cool reboot of which is I think it's fun and and awesome and like it just was very influential on me as a kid too. Like so I'm very biased in saying it because I was just like, oh, this is my ship, but it was very cool. Um, can we talk a little bit about the Jimmy situation. Yes,

let's talk about him. So there is like the depiction in some ways of an abusive relationship in this movie between Jilly and Jimmy, And I will say, I know this is like a polarizing topic and everyone's going to

have a different opinion. I was kind of pleasantly surprised with how this movie handled it, partially because he gets killed, which is great and cathartic, but I, I I mean, we sort of talked about this already, But I really liked that Jilly called her sister right away when the relationship truly became volatile and saw support from her sister. I thought that that was like a pretty realistic, strong move

on the part of that. Like, I was weirdly, like very affected by it that every time I see that scene and I don't know. I mean, I I it's also implied in a way that was I think it's just like that relationship because it did get so cartoony, and I think Jimmy has maybe a little too cartoony for an abuser, uh in in some ways where it's like, you know, he's up and then bonk him on the head and he's down, Like there is like a cartoony

nature of how they kill him. But another thing that could have affected me and I was like, Oh, that's like more nuanced than I would expect from this movie, I guess, is that Julie makes it clear that she really did, like have feelings for him and loved him and didn't have guilt about that and was like honest about that with her sister. And that was another thing that I was like, Oh, that's more than I would

expect from a movie like this. And I also found to be just I'm like, oh, I don't know how often you see that, because you know, so often when abusive relationships are portrayed, we see the characters in the movie being like, well, why don't Julie, why don't you like just all the kind of normal blaming stuff for women that are in abusive relationships, but to hear her, you know, say genuinely that she did love him and she was afraid of him, and you know now she

we'd see the moment where she says, enough is enough. I need to seek out help to get out of this situation. I thought was was kind of well done and right. I was again just be I think mostly because it came out where it's like, you know, everything is blamey and weird. I was. I was like very impressed with like the way that that played out, and like we've discussed before that Sally doesn't um at any point not believe her sister UM. And then you know,

however cartoonish I think. I mean, it would have been a little weird if they didn't kill him in a weird, cartoony way, I guess, just because of the tone of the movie, but in a very cathartic way. I think for women who have been in abusive relationships, it is always very fun for us to be like and then he gets killed and no one gets in trouble because that's just like a fun fantasy. UM. But yeah, I don't know. I was generally impressed with how this movie

handled it. Right, because all relationships are complicated, including ones with abusers. So but movies often failed to explore or any of the complexities of those relationships and usually just paint the abuser as being just like extremely cartoony and he is, especially after he killed Sillier and Sillier but up till that, but before that, Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think the movie handled that fairly responsibly. It was nice.

Yeah and there And I think we've discussed this, I think more on the main trion weirdly than on the main feed. But the idea that I mean just statistically, women are more commonly abused and assaulted by men that they already know as opposed And that's not to say I mean it does happen with strangers, but I think that there is this disproportionate representation in movies of it happening from a stranger um and less often from characters

that the female character already knows. And I'm sure that that has something to do with the discomfort with male audience members seeing themselves or qualities of themselves in an abusive character. And that's something I think it was. Was it the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo episode where we

had like a conversation about that. And I'm not saying that Jimmy is like a character that men will really see themselves in because he is like a late nineties goth Um, which is not super common any longer, but it is, I don't know, just like setting the groundwork. I think for what is a more common abusive relationship than what we see in movies? A lot was uh you know, points for sure, points you hinted at the

bonking of the head, the sacred bonking of the head. Uh. Well, I'm glad you brought it up, because this is one of many examples we see in a movie of a woman using specifically a frying pan as a weapon. Um it is, which is it is like a cartoon example. Yeah, So right after they bring Jimmy back to life after they've killed him the first time with poison, Um they bring a back to life, he starts choking and attacking Jilly,

so Sally bonks him on the head with a skillet. Um. You know, because women be using domestic items as weapons, they never get their own weapons. But I was like you, but you know, magic, like surely there's conjure up like a thing to like make him go to sleep again or something. I don't know, but um, I know you're totally right, Like is like that's another confusing use of like it's implied that they can do infinity magic, but they only do like heater real relationship magic, which is like,

come on, show me something else. Um. But I've been I've been keeping a little tally of all the movies that we see this very specific thing happening of a woman bonking a man with a frying pan, Raiders of the Last Art shuck a lot, um, yep, that happens. I forgot about that. Who framed Roger Rabbit? Those are the only ones I could think of off the top of my head, But I know there are more, because

I know we've talked about others. But yeah, it's um, it's a trope that this movie did choose to subscribe to, although they probably weren't even aware of that they were doing it as they were writing it. But also, how about that midnight Margarita scene? So much fun, iconic and weird and every way it's so bizarre because it's sandwich between two heavy scene. Yes, totally yes, weird and incongruous. I don't we're alert sure that was a word even that was it was adjacent to a word that was

like I could. I'm like, man, if you were like the director of that movie, that'd be so hard because you're like, hm, it doesn't fit. But I like it so much. I guess just put it in wherever. I just I love to see women having fun in a movie because you don't see it that much. You don't see women get to have fun, fun together. Yeah, so it was really nice. But then they are being like, you're a whitch, you're a slut. But then they do you He's like when since when is being been a

crime in this family's right? Coming to the defense of her sisters, like I'm we claiming the term, They're like alright, uh yeah, no at this movie, uh, you know, unfortunately, and in some ways I can understand it was not very successful. Um, it did not make back its budget unfortunately, which is you know, I mean, and and these are big stars at this time, so I think it was probably surprising that this movie didn't make its money back.

And a lot of the criticism around it at the time was based around the tonal issues, which you know, we can't deny them. So there wasn't even I mean on the on the cursory check I did, because you know, we like to go back and see how movies were reviewed because there's a lot of the especially the further bike you go. Most film critics are white guys, and so when movies come out for anyone that isn't them,

they're like, hey, did it there? Or even just like I liked it, but what I liked it, but like I don't think it was written for me, and and then be like I'm talking in a star it wasn't made for me. Um, we're not as much of it. They're most of the criticism around this movie surrounded the tonal issues, which is a valid criticism, and they're like, but Nicole Kidman and Sandra Book are great, would love

to see them in more movies, which I also agree with. Yeah, um, just a couple of last things from me one other film and Louise parallel both movies, and with either the two women jumping off or driving off of a surface, Yeah, one goes far better than the other. Yep, So that's still little keeping much. And then finally, there is a black cat that keeps popping up in the movie Do You Talk about it. Well, it's just that cats have eight nipples, and that's cat facts with Caitlin, but also

black cats there's still superstition around them. Black cats are much harder to get adopted in like places like the SPCA and stuff like that, because people still have a superstition around black cats. Can I tell you something? Yes? Please? Two years after this movie was released, when I was seven years old, I adopted a black cat and he lived for fifteen years and he was really mean, always mean. He loves me, probably had a curse on him. He was no he was taught much like my current pet.

He was very into toxically performing his gender. But you know, r I p the cat. We tried to give him a name, but he was just here the cat. My roommate has a black cat right now. So positive representation of black cats and movies, and this movie does it. So I would say it's pretty neutral that the cat isn't as much of a character as it should be. It doesn't speak like Salem, And that was actually a really stupid creative decision. Why wasn't the cat a puppet?

Wasn't the frog a puppet? Erasure? Alfred will init should have played the frog. It was just a grown man in a frog suit. Like but I just found out today that Paddington on ice. I'm very excited for you in London. Go back. I can't afford that. You know, you have sledge costs. They're Anastasia is happening near us for the next couple of weeks. Ice are just regular wish on ice, just on regular but still pretty cool. Talk to me when it's on a slippery surface. I

saw Anna's Asia on ice as a kid. I remember the wig, the raspute and Beard kept flying. Oh it was great. I love ice shows. Okay, let's do Anitania again. Well that's practical magic everyone. Yes, this was so fun. Yeah. So if you like the style of this episode, you'll love our matreon. Yeah this is literally the matreon is horizontal, the main feet is vertical, and that's just kind of the difference exactly. Um yeah, thank you so much for uh for a wait, we have to do a bunch

of stuff. I forgot how our show. I was literally looking at prices for tickets on Anasthesia rate a sec. Does this movie pass the Bechdel tests? Yes, it does, it does. It does pretty handling a lot between a lot of different characters. Yeah, there's sometimes like again, like we are always sort of like a movie to movie in terms of cont the subcontext being about a man, because a lot of times they're talking about how to

cover up a murder, but of a man. But I found like the murder of a man who passes right inherently yes, yes, but even so there I mean before the man enters the picture. But also like it's like, yeah, we did cast that spell on you so that you'd fall in love with the fruit vendor. I just don't. Yeah, but there's still there are there are lots of conversations that pass. In fact, um, I don't know if two men talk to each other in this entire movie. Oh that's a good question. I don't. I don't. I can't

think of an example of it happening. And if so, it's how we normally see the movie pass the backtel test, where it's very kind of inconsequential and in passing for sure. So there you goddamn go. So we've got our nipple scale of course, zero to five nipples. Based on its representation of women. I feel like this one probably gets I'm tempted to give it a three, maybe even a three and a half. Obviously it gets some nipples docked

for it being guilty of only featuring cis hit white women. Yes, yes, so there's that issue that it's which is the issue of this era into today. But this movie is like, especially given the subject matter, um, and the tendency of this genre to completely exclude anyone that isn't a straight hot white lady. Right. Um. I do enjoy a lot of things about the movie though, again that it is largely about women supporting women. Um. They they do have

to support each other about things relating to men. But that I mean that the scene at the end with the coven coming together all the women who had preview to sleep in like, which, which, you're a bitch, and they're like, actually, I wanted to see the inside of your really cool house, so I'll come over and help help you sweep out the dust of this shitty man. Um.

So yeah, maybe I'll give it. I'll split the diff I'll give it a three point to five that thank you, and I'll give one nip to Sandy Bee, I'll give one nip to Nikki Kay and my other one point to five nips I will give to the little Black Katy who we see first as a kitten and then we see you as an adult cat. And I don't know if we ever learned its name, but it's super cute. So I'm I'm gonna go. I think it is the same thing with three feels to allow. Three by five

feels too high. I'm gonna follow your lead, my sister, which um and go three point to five. I think four it's time. It gets kind of a surprising amount, right. I like the relationships between women in this movie. I

like the trust and support even when it comes to murder. Um. Yeah, And and that you see, even though we've discussed in terms of Hollywood, we don't see a lot of different types of women physically, but but personality wise, there is a lot of different approaches to life, and no one has really except with the kind of subtle things towards Nicole Kidman's character. Um, they're generally treated with respect even though they're making very different life and lifestyle choices, which

is really fun. I again think that the stuff with the abusive relationship was done more right than you would expect kind of campy movie to do, and it's a fun watch. The line in the coconut scene. I say, cut Aidan Quinn and put the line in the coconut scene in it twice. Um. Yeah, it's a fun movie and I you know, everyone should watch it if they

haven't seen it. I'll do three point to five and I'll give one to Sandy, one to Nikki, one to Evan rachel Wood, and uh point to five to the Froggy who should have been all for Millina, who should have been out for Billina. But Alfred was called and he was like, I don't want to take apart from a frog. And we're like, he's a here, what was he doing? I thank you for I was like it would be too much, thank you for carrying up. I don't know, let's see, let's say it alf b. He's

right now. He's probably like, how am I going to promote Frozen two? He's coming off of that boogie Night's heat. He could have been filming for either Agnolia or Deadly Do right to totally identical movies. Anyways. Yeah, that's the episode on Practical Magic. Everyone, damn right it is. Thanks for listening. We'll just go straight to our plugs, which are again, Uh you liked the the loose, silly style of this episode, then you'll love our Matreon, so subscribe.

It's five dollars a month to bonus episodes every month, and you can do that by going to patreon dot com slash pectel Cast and we're gonna be doing another just the two of us episodes seemed to celebrate our three year anniversary as a goddamn show. It's coming on up, So if you're a longtime listener, subscribe to the Matreon we and if you want a merch, we've got merch at our Tea public store, te public dot com, slash b backdel Cast, Holidays coming up, et cetera, and check

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tab and all the links will be there. So if you live in Denver or you live close by, come see us. So we'll see you soon and we'll talk to you soon. Happy Halloween, which you bit by