Pan's Labyrinth with Aristotle Acevedo

actually have a question. This is a movie, right, So if there's elaborate, that's probably a really drawn out metaphor for a womb, is it not. Perhaps there's a vagina in the floor and we've got to climb in. This happens in I would say of movies, Well remember the floor of vagina from Mother exclamation point right, the floor of vagina. I haven't thought about that, And forever it happens so much male outurs they're at it again. At least this is this is a great movie. But I

was like, there it is. I forgot the last time I watched Pan's Laborriate, I didn't. I didn't know about the cultural sensation that is floor vagina or a vagina. Head vaginas come in many forms. We have two floor vaginas this month alone. I mean the descent cave vagina. Shocking. Wow. Um, anyway here we are, yes? Sure? I Well, are there two Doug Jones in your floor vagina? I guess I'll come in as long as he's there. As long as he's there, I feel safe. So this is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome.

We are a movie podcasts in which we analyze popular films, usually sometimes unpopular, I don't know. In any case, we analyze influential, for better or worse, influential films through an intersectional seminist lens, and we use the Bechtel test simply as a way to inspire a larger conversation about representation, inclusivity, intersectionality and what Jamie, what is it? What's the Betel test? Well?

It is a media metric invented by Alice and Bachtel, sometimes called the Bactel Wallace test, that requires for our purposes. There's different variants of the test, but for our test, it requires that there are two people of a marginalized gender with names talking to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue that's all it takes. Shouldn't be that awfully hard. You can talk about Floria Vagina, you cannot talk about Doug Jones. Sometimes

it's hard, but but we we will get. I mean, it's you know, this movie passes there, the podcast is over. You can stop listening. There's nothing left to discuss. Um. But that is that is the Bechtel test. But we use it as a jumping off point for a larger discussion. Indeed, and I'm so excited about our discussion today. I'm so excited about our guest today. You already know him, you already love him, because he's our producer. He's our dear friend.

You remember him from the Pacific rim episode. He's the sweetest, simply the best. He's an uncle now he's and he's Del Toro's number one fan. Is the credit that he wanted. It's a credit currently being sported on his very shirt, courtesy of a gift that I bravely gave him. Brave it's Aristotle Alsaveado. Hello, happy to be back. We're so happy to have you. We've missed you so much. It

has been far too long. I know, well because someone was just asking about you, and because of how you record in the Quarantine where it's just a very bare bones operation with me and Jamie. Um, but we still need you, Aristotle, and that's why you're here and we've been, we've been. I mean, this works out on so many levels because you are number one Del Toro head and people have been requesting Pan's Labyrinth for so long. I imagine it's pretty high up there. What's your history with

this movie? And I guess with the Del Toro fandom at large. I remember this the other day and it may date me a bit, but I still remember seeing the poster for the first time right here at the Alhambra Renaissance when I was just a kid, uh, and seeing it and thinking like, what the fuck movie called Pan's Labyrinth and You're not gonna have Peter Pan in it? That's so dumb, Like I was so mad that they took Peter Pan's name? Did he? But you know, I

was a foolish child that knew nothing. And then I don't remember the first time I saw it, but I remember really being blown away and immediately remembering that moment, thinking Wow, what that was? What a stupid thing? Oh that's the best, Jamie, what about you, what's your history with it? Um? I remember seeing this movie for the first time after school at my aunt's house because she had like movie channels and we did not have movie channels.

This is at my now Trump supporting aunt's house. We've simply fallen out of touch, but I did. There was a point in time where she had the channel Showtime, and I wanted to watch a cool movie. So I watched it and I love did I definitely. I don't know. I was probably in like middle schoolish it. It was like shortly after this movie came out. I didn't know who del Toro was at this time, but it was my first Del Toro movie, and so I held it very close to my heart and it holds up. It's

so good it does. Yeah, what about you. I was in college when it came out, and I think I saw it somewhere around that time, maybe like a year or two after six. When it came out, I was oh, sex okay, yeah, right, yeah, yes, and I was like, oh my god, this movie is so good. And I wish I had spent my life watching it more frequently,

because I think I've only seen it. I think I watched it once every like four years or so, so I've seen it like three or four times in the past, but every time I watched it, I'm like, oh my, this is incredible. I love this movie. It's so the story is so well crafted, it's beautiful, and I'm tronics of it, all the dug Jones of it all that I this is the first time I've seen this movie since like American fascism really ramped up. So yeah, same whole new vibe going on with this with this viewing.

Oh how nothing has changed? Yeah truly, but like, yeah, this is basically you know, Franco's Spain all over again. This was also I think the just to expose, uh, some of the huge gaps in the American public education system slash education system at large. Um. I think that this movie was the first any in depth look I

had at Franco with Spain at all. Like I think I had it referenced in school, but it certainly was never something that I learned extensively about, like Pan's Labyrinthe was truly what I was like, Oh, I should find out what is supposed to be happening in this movie, because I just it was very glossed over at school. For me anyways, I didn't even it didn't even get covered in any history class I ever took or anything like that has the only reason I honestly know that

it happened. I know who Franco is. But even for this I tried to do a little bit of research, and it is so complicated I can't even pretend to understand what I for a context corner, I was like, all right, we got to do a breakdown of Franco of Spain. And then I was just like, I don't think I'm equipped to do this. Just read the Wikipedia page.

Everyone like it is. It is incredibly dense um and I think I think it's also just like incredible writing on del Toro's part, that it's like he's able to present everything in a very historically accurate way, in a way that isn't like completely overwhelming or like if you don't fully understand the context, it doesn't extreme lee hinder your viewing of the movie, but if you do know the context, it enriches it. It's I'm always really impressed

when people can right like that. It's a miracle. It's incredible. Yes, But also in doing some of the research I did a little research I read, you know, I have some books on del Toro specifically, one of them kind of referenced kind of his inaccuracy in the Spanish Civil War and that there's still a lot of sugarcoating that happens, that Spain itself is still kind of reconciling with that the resistance was actually somewhat puppeted by Communist Russia at

the time and kind of use them and deceive them to even ensure Franco's victory, and like it's a whole very weird and that you know, the Francoist regime was as brutal as depicted in the movie, but that the resistance was also sometimes equally as brutal, Like they were also indiscriminate, le just murdering priests, anyone related to the church before and it was kind of like a back and forth of those kinds of things. I was like, ahh,

holy ship. I really was hoping for a good versus evil and I think it still was because Franco was evil, but evil er, yeah, right, the greater of two evils. Wow, I didn't realize that man history is bleak and that too, was like, oh, this is so much like I truly can't even pretend to like, that's just kind of scratch of what I read. So if I'm totally wrong, I'm sorry. That's fascinating. Well shod Should we talk about the movie? I guess so? Oh right. Um, so the recap goes

as follows. I left some stuff out just because it's such a rich story with a lot of moving parts, So my recap isn't necessarily going to do this a huge amount of justice. I just recommend that everyone watched the movie because it's so terrific. It's streaming on Netflix as we speak, or at least I hope it still is at the time of this release. But um, yeah, just watch the movie because my my recap kind of

skims over some stuff. But in any case, we get some text on the screen at the very beginning to provide some historical context. It is Spain in ninety four. It's a few years after the Spanish Civil War, and we learned that a group of like guerrilla rebel soldiers are hiding in the mountains fighting against the fascist regime.

Then we get a little bit of a fairy tale introduction where once upon a time there was a princess who lived in the underworld, but she escaped to the human world kind of forgot her identity eventually died there. She became mortal and died there, but her father, the King of the underworld, knew her soul would one day return hern So that's the kind of fairy tale backstory we need to know. Princess Mohanna Moana interesting. Yeah, I'm like, okay,

all my favorite princesses are named Mohanna. So then we're back in Spain. We meet Ophelia. She's ten years old. She loves fairy tales, and she is traveling with her mother, who is undoubtedly gregnant. She is gregnant with a confirmed Greg with a confirmed Greg who is a greg that's giving her problems, a problematic Greg. She's late in her problematic Gregnancy pregnancy, yes, and the third trimester of the Gregnancy. So anyway, um Ophelia and her mother are traveling to

the countryside. Along the way, Ophelia sees this large insect that she thinks might be a fairy and she also sees an entrance to this old labyrinth made of stone near the house where she and her mother will be living in. And this is also where Olivia's new stepfather, Captain Vidal, has set up this base camp because he is in the military of the aforementioned fascist government searching for the aforementioned rebels who were hiding in the nearby mountains.

And the captain, I feel like, embodies again in like a good way. But but because I feel like this movie has he's like patriarchy the character. Yeah, he's like an embodiment of toxic masculinity and fascist ideology. Everything that's wrong, that's him, that's that's his character. Yes, but also we're seeing it through her, like a child died, So it makes like, I mean, he's he's just he's a villain.

He's simply a villain, one of the best movie villains, I think, and I think if this movie were less well written, he could easily come off as like one of these very cartoony villains. And he is. He's extremely evil. He's horrible. Works for the story, though, I mean, it definitely works. It works for the story, especially because it is like this is a fair dark, grim fairy tale,

and he's very he's like borderline cartoonishly evil. But then you're like, remember, like, well, there were like fascist assholes who were not unlike this guy in real life, and also worth worth the note that Hispanic culture in general is very patriarchy, male dominant, like man is the man ruler over every like the language in itself is also completely binary and male is the dominant to the point where he I mean, I don't know, he does so many cartoonishly evilings, but when he goes to his dying

wife's side and it's like, if it comes down to it, save Greg and then he just like leaves, You're like, jeezs man, damn the room at Yeah, she's right there. She can hear you right there, sir. He's so, he's he's completely awful, and uh so this is kind of who Ophelia is up against. Um. We also meet Mercedes, she is a housekeeper, UM, and we meet a doctor.

They both kind of tend to the captain and his people, but we get a reveal that they are both secretly a part of this resistance and they've been helping the rebels, sneaking food and supplies to them. Um. Then on Ophelia's I think it's her first night there, the insect slash fairy shows up and beckons Ophelia to follow it into the labyrinth, and there she meets a fawn who thinks that Ophelia is the princess from the fairy tale in the beginning, and he has been like awaiting her return.

And as you said, Jamie, the princess's name is ma Wanna, but with two ends Malana with ends. So the fawn gives Ophelia three tasks to complete by the next full moon. The first task is to feed these magic stones to a giant toad who lives in a nearby tree um who has been kind of like wreaking havoc on this tree, and she has to retrieve the key from inside the toad, which she successfully does. The toad scene so scary. I

never remember what happens to the toad. It basically just barbs up all of its guts and then it's like skin shell just sort of deflates like a balloon. Oh my. There's a lot of like really horror imagery, like graphic violence and just like really scary stuff. It usually happens pretty quick, and you don't actually get a lot of views of like the scene where he smashes a face in with the bottle, right the bottle, and you know, you don't actually see his face. You kind of get

a moment of it being smashed in. But it's not like other gory movies where it's like we're going to give you the full look into his bleeding. It's like kind of it's a very quick thing most of the time. That's still the worst one for me, really bad. Yeah, but I was reading that Del Toro based that off of something that actually happened. I can find that quote right now. I was just reading it. Yeah, awful. Um, okay, So she's got the key from the toad. Meanwhile, Vidal

is getting closer to the rebels in the mountains. One of them is Mercedes brother. Also Ophelia's mother is her her difficult Gregnancy is is getting worse. Um, she's having pain and bleeding. Then the fun shows up and he's like, Ophelia, you haven't done your next task yet. You have to go into this dangerous place. Take the key with you. You'll see this feast laid out before you, but don't

eat or drink anything. That's very important. So she goes into this place and there's this scary creature, the Paleman, also Doug Jones. She sneaks past it and uses the key to retrieve this dagger, but the feast is very tempting and she is a child with not much will power, so she eats a couple of grapes and it awakens the pale man who has eyeballs in his hands. It's very scary and it kills two of the fawn's little

like fairy friends. But Ophelia manages to escape, and the Fawn shows up again and he's like, um, you ate the things that I told you not to eat. You're not worthy. You're never allowed to come back into the labyrinth again. You can't be the princess And then right after this, Ophelia's mother dies during childbirth. The baby survived. The Greg does survive. His name is Greg. Canonically, I

believe he's credited Greg. Yeah, baby Greg. So meanwhile, Videl is like figuring out that the doctor and Mercedes have been helping the rebellion. So Mercedes makes a run for it and takes Ophelia with her, but Videl catches them trying to leave, and then he's about to interrogate Mercedes, but she fights back, stabs him a couple of times,

and then runs away. The so cathartic fun but then Videl's army surrounds her as she's running away, but the gorillas are hiding nearby and they like, sniper shoot the bad guys. Meanwhile, the phone comes back to Ophelia and he's like, Okay, you know what, I decided to give you one more chance for your last task. You have to come to the Labyrinth and bring your baby brother, Greg, and you have to do everything I say without question.

So Ophelia snatches the baby from Videl's office, but she gives Videal this strong sedative and he's trying to chase after her through the labyrinth. And then Ophelia comes upon the opening of the underworld and the Pond is like, okay, you have to sacrifice your baby brother because we need the blood of an innocent to open the portal to the underworld. And she's like, um funck no, dude, this is a baby. I'm not gonna hurt it. Just then Videl shows up, takes the baby and shoots Ophelia, and

then the tears just start bursting from your head. And then and then when Videl emerges from the Labyrinth, the rebels have him surrounded and they kill him in another very cathartic scene, and then we cut back to Ophelia, who is dying, and her spilt blood and her refusal to hurt her brother and sacrifice herself instead opens the portal to the underworld, where she is revived and she reunites with her true mother and father, the King and

Queen of the Underworld. And then kind of the last little bit of the movie is she leaves kind of like hints of her herself on earth, like a little flower, and that you're saying that she dies and doesn't fall asleep, right, because I was just worried that you were going to be hay that energy and on onto the cast. You know what I've I gave this a lot of thought. She definitely does it fall. I mean, she's only with

dead people. But I mean you could say the same thing for well, what happens in Titanic, you know what, Jamie I think, Well, here's the thing, James Cameron, if you read his script, he leaves it intentionally ambiguous in the Titanic screenplay, whereas Garmo del Toro has stated pretty definitively that the fairy tale aspect of this movie is real and that she does, in fact die at the end and go into the underworld, and that's all real.

So point, James Cameron and Garama del Toro are friends, So it's conceivable that del Toros at the end of Titanic and was like, oh my god, I love this beautiful climactic ending scene in certainly Heaven. Uh let me let me draw from this, uh for for my own movie. James Cameron is my friend. I'm also like that, which let me hold down a whole other rabbit hole of Like, what are those conversations? I feel like those must be some of like the weirdest conversations between two people you

could ever find. Like I would love to just hack in and see what those guys are talking about in the emails. Well, he has got navy j pegs in his Gmail for sure. Okay, well counter counterpoint. Yeah, del Toro saw the end of Titanic. He read the screenplay, and he's just like, I don't like how ambiguous this is. I think that James Cameron really left it open to interpretation, so much so that some really brilliant people they're easily

interpret the end of Titanic as a dream. So I want to make sure my ending is a little bit more concrete counter counter counter point Del Toro, it's you know the heaven in Pan's lab Ranther the you know the underworld is a beautiful shimmering gold, which I think is a direct reference to the heaven that is painted at the end of Titanic, where the room is more luminescent and the lighting is different than You look up to the sky and it's so beautiful and you're like, wow,

that must be what heaven is like, a place full of dead people that you knew. And but isn't that also what dreams are like? Every time I dream, it's full of all the dead people. Like, my dreams are not like that. I'll tell you. Oh, that's okay. That's a great counter counter counter counterpoint is that dreams are usually terrifying. I had a dream last night that Adam Sandler kept mailing bras that weren't my size to my house.

It's not heaven at all. That was there gold in the background, golden light, no gold, There was no gold. He was sending it through Amazon, so it wasn't even ethical. He was sending me the wrong size bra to my house over and over and over and over and over, and I don't want to know what that dream means, but I did have it. Well, I can see that we'll never agree on this, so I have somewhat of a counterpoint here that that is an odd thing I

encountered in the research. In this essay, I'm probably gonna be referring to a lot that I was surprised to read because it's kind of a not a harsh criticism, but a little bit. It's a bit of a criticism on Gama de Toro, which I was I was happy to read, and it's exactly that that the writer criticizes. Is that he is one of the most vocal directors when it comes to his own films and loves to explain every bit of it. But that then doesn't allow

for your interpretation of it. He is actively directing everyone's view of how he wants his movies to be, which is kind of what you want to do. But he's very heavily influencing everyone that loves him. And now you can't find a flaw in it because he told you what to look for, opposed to being a little more you know, critical of like, well, actually, I don't think it means that you know just because you say, it means that you're still you still might be blind to

what you're subconsciously doing here. That's interesting though, because I think that in this movie. That's why I like was kind of going back and forth about like, Okay, is it real? Is this like just Ophelia's coping mechanism for for like dealing with living in this like fascist household, or is this are there actually like fairy tale elements

happening in her to her like in reality? Because I think the movie gives you enough clues for both sides of the argument that it is still open to interpretation. San um So, I don't even know if I agree with that criticism, because even though like del Toro is like, yes, here's what I here's my intention, or here's how I read my own movie, but I think he still like gives you enough of enough opportunities to interpret it a number of different other ways, especially for the blurring of

those worlds. Yeah, I kind of like, I mean, I kind of like that kind of DeSUS. I mean, we've kind of been talking about this an unusual amount lately, but we also talked about it in our episode about a girl walks home alone at night, where um Anna Lily I'm your port was very resistant to have her

movie labeled as any specific type of movie. It sounds like to come from the opposite side of well, where del Toro is coming, where del Toro is possibly being overly specific about like no, I didn't mean this, I meant this, where she was like, I'm not going to tell you what anything means, and I don't want you to put any label on this movie, even if it makes it sound better or whatever. So I think that

that's interesting. Yeah, I guess different directors make different choices. Um, we got to take a quick break, but then we'll come right back for more. Alright, we have emerged back out of the labyrinth and from out of the womb. That long staircase. Yeah, I wish I lived down there. That design is so yeah, I mean it's so beautiful. Yeah, where should we start where? I mean a few things that I never really noticed or kind of. Um, was really impressed by watching this movie with our lens in mind.

Something that jumped out to me. I'll just jump in here. Uh, women and blood, which I never really picked up on because there are bloods of all genders still in this movie. All people have blood everyone has blood and that's just a fact, unless, of course I did just watched every

Twilight movie, so not always some people drink it anyways. Uh, But just the real relationship between women and blood, I thought was really interesting and I'm pretty sure I like where most of it goes where I mean, I think it's very rare that you see a difficult pregnancy great

sorite partner friend, what did you say? A difficult Gregnancy on screen, which is weird because they're incredibly common and kind of the complications that come with pregnancy, even a metaph metaphor pregnancy like this very clearly is I thought was it was cool and that you see kind of the gorrier. I thought it was kind of cool to see that. I also felt like there were connection between um and again, sometimes I'm like, Okay, a man writing the story of three women. Of course there's just gonna

be a little bit too much vaginal fixation. Uh. And I don't think that this movie is really an exception to that, but it's such a good movie that I'm like, well, but like even at the end, I felt like del toro and please jump in if you're like you're reading

into this it's not a vagina thing. But even at the end where it's like Ophelia's blood that that activates the floor of vagina and stuff like that, where it felt and I was able to find a few readings of this that also referenced this, so I'm like, okay, I don't feel completely off base, but just kind of the symbolism of blood in a woman's life where Ophelia obviously like that never reaches menstruating age, but her you know blood at the end kind of activates this big

um change in the in the midmost of this world, or like there's Prey Nancy blood we see, there's you know, injury blood, we see, there's just I don't know, women in blood. It had me thinking, I see your point. That didn't even occur to me, And that almost feels like the type of like deep read, like over analytical

kind of thing. Whenever, like I don't know, there are different movies where there will be like a mountain and people will be like, that's a ballast, that's a Paenis that suggesting this is not a floor of vagina though I don't know, I mean the floor of vagina. I didn't think about I didn't consider that because I just thought it for a labyrinth. But I do think that is a valid point to make, is the floor of vagina. But he also was very explicitly said that the tree

is over there ovaries or a uterus. It did that that tree did look like I'm going to defend my floor of vagina, and like whatever women's blood saying. I mean, I don't, I don't and I don't even think this is like a misstep for this movie. But it was just something that stood out to me. And this and even the who like many of the hallways we see her walking through, uh you know, there's a fallopian vibe

going on to them. Yeah, I mean, and it and it makes sense where there's I mean, so much of the movie hinges on this Gregnancy that is difficult and

full of trials, and so that is true. Yeah, yeah, And I guess the tunnel that she goes into to find the frog that could be seen as vaginal opening to so much of it is so much of it seems to be about discovering yourself and growing up and coming to maturity, so that the floor of vagina makes a lot of sense now of you know, the blood going into the floor of vagina, being a period and thus reaching maturity and finding yourself in the underworld. I don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm not totally sold on

the on the period metaphor at the end. I just the relating like women in blood to a pregnancy or just vaginal blood at all. You would really not see in a big movie like this very often, but you see it pretty frequently in this movie, mostly via um Ophelia's mom. Yeah, I guess I didn't give a much thought prior to this. Yeah, it was. I truly couldn't stop any about it in this one, where I'm like, well, there for me, it's a floor of vagina and a

vagina hallway. One of the first things I wanted to bring up was that this is a hero's journey style narrative where a girl is the hero um, which is pretty unique. It's not often done. Female characters rarely get to be the hero in a hero's journey story. Another example off the top of my head is another again another character named moh Wanna, but like Disney's mo Wanna, is one of only a few other like popular media

hero's journey stories. I guess the new Star Wars movie like The Affair, but just definitely coming more popular, definitely not parody, and there it's only been in I think pretty recent years that filmmakers are like I would argue Hunger Games as well, Like sure, even even the worst of OZ. I mean, they definitely exist and have existed, but just definitely not not to the same for sure.

So I think that is cool for sure. And also I guess worth mentioning in the case of this movie, that she doesn't survive the heroes Ernie, which is I mean it fits again, it like fits the story perfectly, but it's very sad or I mean does because she dies and gets reborn in underworld heaven. Isn't that surviving? Yeah, I mean it definitely is in a way, um, but I mean in terms of does she get to ever speak to Mercedes again? Does she likes stuff like that?

Like she I feel like, yeah, it's it's very sad. It's so sad she reached the goal that she was reaching for. But yes, because I do still like to think that it is ambiguous that like that was just her in her head and now she's happily living that fantasy in the afterlife. But was it real, I would like to I guess, I don't know. I know I wanted to be real. Um. I also like if we're just in the way that I don't know. There's a

number of between our three main female characters. Everyone has a different dynamic and a different type of relationship, which is really cool. Um, And you kind of get these three very different types of women and they have very different responses to the like very oppressive force that's on top of them. Right where you have Carmen, who is I mean, and and Carmen is very fascinating to me, and I I love her so much because she is

the most deferential to the patriarchy. But I feel like a lesser movie would make you feel like and you know, look what happened to her, But but you know exactly why she is making the choices that she's making. It's made very clear, even when it sucks and it's upsetting, and you can tell that she is not always thrilled

to have to make them. But with her, it's this I don't know, like something I'd never really gave a lot of thought too, but kind of like towing that line of like she's trying to you know, like there's a class thing at play for her as well, which I feel like it is symbolized through when Ophelia gets the dress all fucked up and Carmen is really upset because that symbolizes a higher class status, and it seems like the trade off for that is her having to

put up with some of the most horrifying sexism of all time. But it also the movie doesn't I don't know. I mean, she does die right so, but I but I did feel like the movie didn't think less of her for making those choices, which made me, Yeah, I really love her. And even though you know, it's like she's not the like rebel of the story, but her narrative is no less important or valuable, and that is,

I think, really beautiful. We've talked about the from time to time on the podcast about how women not to the same extent in contemporary times, but definitely in decades past and centuries passed in millennia past, where women have been at such a major disadvantage in life, where they basically have to make huge sacrifices to survive. And it felt to me like she was a widow, her her husband, her husband died. Did they say he died in the war, so he probably he died in the in the you know,

Spanish civil wars about to have a great beard. I forget he looks like at the end, I was like, well, cool, Yeah, he's more or less Santa Claus. And so he died. What I'm guessing was quite a while ago. Her mother had to like take over his business as a tailor

in like the shop. It was war time. She was struggling, and then this distinguished military man comes along and probably like I don't know the circumstances of their marriage, but she probably just saw him as like, well, he can provide for me and my daughter, so I will marry him because what are my choices, which I feel like is like illustrated really clearly in that scene where Ophelia it doesn't understand why her mother felt that she had to get married again, and her mom says, I was

alone too long, and then it's it's so sad because I feel like you weren't alone. I was right there, but just there's there's a level that Ophelia doesn't yet understand, like what it takes to survive under I mean, almost every kind of oppression you can imagine for sure. Yeah, so this was like a choice of survival she had to make by marrying Vidal and then and then he turns out to be a horrible, abusive piece of ship

that is unfortunately the case all too often. But yeah, again it's like what choice did she have if she was going to provide for herself and her daughter? So, um, yeah, I thought that was an interesting exploration. I wonder if that could have been dived into just a little bit more. I don't know if there was necessarily space or need for it, but I kind of she was the character, the female character to me that I felt if if anyone could have gotten a little bit more development, it

could have been Ophelia's mom. But um yeah, I still I think it was still interesting the way that her kind of circumstances were presented to us. I think she also plays she's kind of used as the perfect example of how all women at that time we're just like you're just shoved down to nothing, Like you're just constantly gotten ship after ship after ship. There's no easy way out, and so she kind of, I think, unfortunately, has to

die to prove that point. You're like, nope, you're just not gonna get anything and then we're just gonna kill you. And that's that. Yeah. I was feeling that way on this few as well, where it's like they're whatever, they're these three women and girls are representing kind of like three different ways to approach this oppressive force and what

are the outcomes where she's very deferential to it? And I feel like like you're just saying your estortle, Like the movie doesn't want you to really take away, like, well, you should just be passive to the worst person in the entire world and you'll you'll get out just fine where And and I think it's like really telling that I don't know, I mean, I always am like doesn't feel you have to die um, but that Mercedes is the sole character to kind of get out um and

be able to continue on in this version of the world. And how it's like someone who is from a lower class and is you know, expected to be deferential to the same person, but finds a way to navigate around that and kind of rebel and push anyways. And to have that character be the one who survives and goes on, you know, it's like the metaphor isn't a softball it's like I get it, but I like that, yet there's still again, I'm gonna keep referencing the same There's a

book that I have. It's a great book, yet is it. It's called The Devil's Backbone and Pans Labyrinth Studies in the Horror film and they're about these two specific films. The Quest for Meaning in Pans Labyrinthe by Romana Cortie, I don't know is the one that's a little bit

more critical. And she will also point out that even this happy sad ending is still a huge sugarcoating of the situation because Franco continued to rule for years after to nineteen, so like there isn't even in that little bit of hope that like there is no happy ending for them. It's fun And that gets mentioned to where I think it's Mercedes talking to her brother or different rebels are talking to each other and they'll say, like, even if we can like kill Vidal, they're just gonna

send another one. And if we kill him, they're going to send another one. So yeah, it's just like in reality, like Mercedes survives to the end of this movie, but like, but who knows what happens there's no guarantee that in like a year, she might not have been killed by

the fascist regime. Yeah, so yeah, I was. I was kind of like, I like that they at least reference that, but like I I also see her criticism that that kind of is like we I mean, in any time like one character represents I mean, I think that that's the downside of having like Mr Patriarchy as your villain, of like, well, once you've killed Mr. Fascism, Mr Fascism, hyphen Patriarchy, joy can spread across the land again, when

of course it's not never one person you know. Yet he's still such you're saying early, he's like a perfect villain because he's so brutal and evil and there's no way to sympathize with him really, which you also understand why, I mean, you don't understand like it not you know, sympathetically. But he is just a disgusting product of the time with major daddy issues. Oh my god, I can't wait to talk about his daddy issues. And the daddy issues

in this movie are running rampant. There's an exchange I really like between Vidal and the doctor character who the doctor is tending to one of the rebels that the fashion the fashion guys have captured. They're torturing him to get him to talk, and um, the doctor comes in to tend to him after he's been tortured, and the bull guys like, please kill me, and so the doctor complies, is like yes, this is like we have to make sure you can't they don't get any more information out

of you. And then Videl comes in and he's like, you disobeyed me. Why did you do that? Why didn't you just obey me? And um, the doctors like, well, to obey someone without question is something that only someone like you can do and not me, which is like what fascism is is, you know, just like obeying without question. And then that ties back in the end in a in a really cool thematic way where the fawn is like, okay, Ophelia,

I need you to just bring your brother. Don't ask questions, and then when he's like we need to like spill his blood for this whole thing to work, you can't like, don't question it, and she's just like no, like, I'm not some like Patsy, I'm not some or not's not the right word, but I'm not some just like follower who's she said that though like a Newsy fucking Patsy, and that's rewarded because she's like, well then she you know, she sacrifices herself and and you know, I don't know,

the moral of the story is just don't follow orders without questioning them, because then you become a fascist the end. Yeah, I think it's like Ophelia. I don't know, I'm really because you've you are so much more entrenched in the

discourse around this movie than than we are Ophelia. I I it makes me sad that Ophelia dies, but it does I mean, if we're going with the read where she dies, and I think that that makes a kind of interesting complex point where like you have one character who differs to the oppressive forest and it kills them. You have one character who pushes against the oppressive force and survives for now, and then you have Ophelia who

pushes against the oppressive force and loses. And just I don't know, seeing all those different kinds, like, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's one way to go against an oppressive force that's going to be a win. It just means that, you know, you have to do. It shows the weight of the oppression of like this is such a massive, massive front of evil, which is hard to

get around. But another weird is the fun gas little philia, right for sure, because that's what that's that's the weird, that thing that I still kind of have some trouble under standing why. I suppose, like was the eating of the grapes saying you'll never see me again but then coming back for a second chance part of the test or was is that just like all of this one long gaslight? And the other problem in this story really has the number one has the number one self proclaimed

Gammo fan. I also have to bring up a lot of the hiccups. But the odd thing in this story is that it's about Princess Juana running away from a patriarchy into a human evil evil like very oppressive patriarchy. You want to return back to the original patriarchy. So there's never really a freedom that she gets. There's a happier ending, but it's she still goes from patriarchy to patriarchy, right.

It makes you wonder why she ran away from the underworld in the first place, Like I'd imagine it was out of curiosity, but that is I hadn't I hadn't even considered it from that angle, and like, yeah, she is like it is another daddy, daddy's own, but a nicer daddy this time. Yeah. Well, I was like, is it like, I mean, it's not like The Little Mermaid where she's like, I fell in love with a man from above of so I have to go up there. I have to see a plot which and then you know,

get some legs and then become a human. It's nothing like, yeah, I guess we don't know why she ran away or like that part of this story doesn't apply to her that I was kind of struggling with that. To her, I'm like, where she gets to the labyrinth and then the fon is like, you're the main character in the story. But then it's like, well, then why doesn't she know about anything that happens to the character before because she loses her memory as as soon as she comes, so

she forgets why the first patriarchy is bad. So the ending of the movie is she's going to go back and then find out soon I mean patriarchy bad, but they never also explicitly say bad, So I like, what wait, truly, I just imagine like the kind of situation of like I want to live amongst the humans to see what it's like, but then I want to be where are the people are exactly, and the other kind of she's

a try so you can't falter for it. But the other odd thing about the situation is that the world is so oppressive she would rather leave, you know what I mean. The kind of feels like a in the current situation, it feels a little bit like I hate both of the candidates, so I'm not going to vote. Oh so I'm just gonna like I'm out of here. I'm I'm moving to Canada, moving, and she's literally moving to Wow, And I'm like, she's a child, so of course that that's the option we'd all take. At least

she can't vote. Uh, yeah, that makes sense. It's always I mean, and I guess the other the other way that I saw to read that happening was like whatever you if you're going from, Like she pushed against the oppressive force. It lost her her life, but then it kind of also won her this immortality that's implied of like almost like a Martyrie martyr for the cause kind

of immortality. So even though she's physically dead. Maybe I don't know, it's like her her death meant something in the human world and it impacted people in the human world, which is I mean, yeah, I don't know. That's the positive spin I can see on that, but it also could be seen as moving to Canada. I had not considered the martyr I saw. I saw more as it like another victim of the Franco regime. But the martyrdom

of it is that changes everything. I hope, hopefully, I'm like, you would hope right that, like Mercedes survives, and hopefully she survives long enough to tell the other rebels about this, like little girl who wouldn't listen to the captain and like had this big imagination and lost her whole family and gave her life up because she wouldn't capitulate or whatever. I hope, I mean, I hope because otherwise it's like,

oh God, life is so many ningless. And on that note, let's take a quick break and then come back for more discussion and we're back, just really quick stuff. I mean, this was kind of like I guess the one oh one of why Ophelia is such a cool character, but just so it's all said, put it out there. She's she's a little rebellious kid. She doesn't wear fancy dresses that look like exactly like the Alice in Wonderland dress because I'm sure a reason when you tell her to.

I like that she has this really rebellious spirit, but it doesn't like it doesn't mean that she's a bad kid. I feel like a lot of times you see that in movies where it's like you just need to learn to be good, where she knows that her mom is wrong. She doesn't understand why her mom is making the decision or wrong by her view right, she doesn't understand why her mom is making the decisions that she's making. But

it doesn't destroy their relationship. It definitely affects it, but it they still have this like strong love and respect for each other that doesn't come apart even though they are being true to what they think is right in very different ways, which is something you don't usually get in a story like this where it's like, I mean, I guess I'm just in this headspace because we are

talking about the Little Mermaid a lot. But like Ariel disobeys her dad and he's like, Cia, you suck you're bad, And I like that happens in stories with young rebellious protagonists and a lot of their parents are like, no, I don't see it your way. I was never a child. I'm going to destroy your room full of a little weird your labyrinth. But in this I like that there are so many shades of gray to the mother daughter relationship, even though you don't see them together that that much.

But even that moment where I don't know, my favorite moment they have together on this watch is like when she's in the bathtub and she's just disobeyed for the five millionth time, and her mom comes in and is like, well, we're very disappointed, and you were really frustrated, and the captain is more disappointed than me Cia, and I was like, okay, that's like a really lovely and then Ophelia like gives this little smirk like I'm glad I disappointed him because

I hate him. She knew and I and also that's like indicating to her that her mom is not actually that disappointed in her, and it's just like, which is lovely. I like. I like that. I also like the relationship dynamics between the three of them, The three the three main female protagonists being the mom, because you have the mom who's like struggling and trying to do the best

for her mother, I mean for her daughter. But then Ophelia also goes to I have to say that with um, I guess the things that she can't talk about with their mother. And I appreciate that being there in the movie because that I feel like that never that doesn't come up often with a child talking to an adult about kind of grown up things, I guess, or things like this is how I feel because they have to talk.

They're the only two that can talk to each other really about, Like I'm in this secret rebellion, I was like I met a faun though at a lot of points to Mercedes listens, but it's also kind of like magic isn't real, right, But I think that's also just from coming from being hardened from flipping in a fascist regime.

Perhaps what I like that Mercedes does that Ophelia's mom doesn't is that, yeah, Like it is definitely clear from the beginning that Mercedes is like, Okay, this is like a kid thing and it's an imagination thing, but she doesn't try to really take that from Ophelia because it seems like, I mean, Merses especially is so entrenched in like some really difficult shit, and it seems like she sees this kid and she's like, oh my gosh, this kid has such a wild imagination and has so much

going on in their inner life that at least doesn't it's a projection of living in a fascist regime, but it's at least fun and it's hers, And so she doesn't try to be like this is fake. I think she's just like, Okay, don't like, don't take things too far. I don't know. And she also says like she feels like a cool aunt for her friend talked to, especially because she says like, no, I don't believe in those things now, but I did when I was your it.

You know, I did when I was a kid. So it's like she's letting Ophelia having it and like not telling her not to believe in those things, whereas her mom is like, these are you just need to stop reading so many fairy tales, like there is no magic, and so like her mom sort of forcing her own little bit of oppression on Ophelia, whereas Mercedes is like you like yeah, but like believe in whatever you want to believe in if it helps you cope with these

awful times. I'm going off that. I mean, it's like her style. You were saying earlier that the fun is like an asshole for sure, Like he's definitely gaslighting and confusing her constantly, and like the goal of what he actually wants is never clear, and if if that is kind of like her projection of the world she's around, where like it's this inner labyrinth that she has to navigate that's full of male figures that she's kind of

afraid of that are giving her. That's like I don't know, just like providing endless confusion and lack of clarity, and like, oh, maybe that's what it is. I am always I guess just using this lens going in it. I guess I never really thought very hard about how like the mythical creature she encounters, the fairies, are coded female or they use she prone up, but but you don't really know you don't, I mean other than their protectors, but like

you don't really know much about them. But like the two characters you get to know in the Labyrinth are too kind of deceptive. And then in the in the second villain, what do we what? The Paleman's case is like terrifying a little more on the nose too, But that that also, I think lends nicely in with it, like these are things that that she's projecting the pale Man is because I hadn't realized how close those scenes were. But the big dinner scene it's almost right before the

Paleman scene, and they're exactly mirrored. So the Paleman's cave that is a little more Catholic churchy, yeah, which Gammo has said it's supposed to represent the Catholic Yes, yeah, that scene is a criticism of that institution. Right. I don't know if I even made that connection. Every time I watched this movie, I'm just like so dazzled by like the visuals, and I'm I'm always like, oh right, there's also like symbolism and stuff that I keep forgetting

to pay attention to. I watched it twice for this and both times by the end, I was like fuck, I wasn't even like thinking like research, I was just watching. I watched at once for fun because I knew I wasn't going to be able to focus because it's so good and I haven't seen it in years and then the second time for analysis and I still didn't pick

up everything. It's just so rich. But yeah, it's like if it's I mean, has has del Toro said explicitly that the creature she comes across in the laborate are just are her interpretation of what's going on in front of her. I don't think he said that, though, I do like that, but he did say that, like the pale Man is a like reflection of Vidal in a like as above so below type of got it? Can

we talk about Mercedes? So one of the bigger cathartic moments or storylines for me was with her, where basically what happens is that Vidal underestimates her because she is a woman. Because there's that scene where he's about to interrogate and torture her after he's figured out that she's working with the rebellion, and he sends like the his like second in command guy away and the guy's like are you sure? Like don't you want me to be here? And he's like, for God's sake, she's just a woman,

you know, Like what what could have possibly happen? She's not going to do anything to me, right, and that that's like what kills him exactly, yes, and he's like, you found my weakness. It's pride. And then two seconds later, she stabs him in the back jokers him. I forgot that she jokes him. I was like, oh no, don't joker him. It also looks like she stabs him in the heart, and I'm like, how did he not die from that wound? I don't know. He's a super super villain,

you know. There are certain moments where I'm like, I he's he gets injured so many times, he's like restpute and grade like number of attempts made on his life before he finally dies. Yeah, but so yeah, She's basically just like it's because I'm a woman that you never suspected me, Like this is how I got away with it. I was invisible to you. And then she cuts up his face, tells him you won't be the first pig I gutt it, and we're just like, whoa go. I

didn't remember that part of the movie. I guess I had just kind of forgotten that since the last time I watched it. And maybe it's a little just like I don't know, just like kind of surface level, like whou feminism go? But it worked on me. I was like, hell yeah, Mercy best. But then it's the thing that's

sad about it is that she she does. I mean, I'm glad that she I mean, of any character in the whole movie, she well, yeah, she like her getting the killing blow on him, and that second scene where he's like, you know, trying to do the honorable soldier thing and be like, tell my Greg, like what time it was when I died and she's like, Greg, won't even know your name was Greg, and then she kills Like that is like, so what made me sad on

the second watch for this recording was she says explicitly like, motherfucker, don't touch the girl. But then he does, he kills he kills her. Yeah, but then he's killed for that, but it's like he still kills her. He didn't. I just I'm like, why didn't that fascions learn something? Because they don't have the capacity to learn many cases, And

I like that they give that. Delta gives Mercedes an in her life as well, because I feel like sometimes with like rebel characters, all you know about them is like they are fighting for the right thing, and you don't. And I mean honestly, like Mercedes being a member of the underclass on top of being underestimated as a woman, on top of having a huge heart and sense of

direction is enough. But I like that we also see that she is doing this for her family, and she's like I like that you kind of get to know some people in her world as well, because I always kind of forget that. You meet her brother and you get to like get some insight into why she does what she does, um and that they're kind of working together, and I just I like that. I like that you

get that background for her. I think, in uh watching it, that scene is awesome, But in also true horror fashion, I find myself asking why didn't you kill him then? Like you had your chance. You could have killed the villain right then and there, especially in reference to gutting a pig, which you get more grotesque with it, you would slice the throat open, thus killing the pig, killing the man. I like, you had it right there, and they're going to try to kill her either way, so

she might as well just finish the job. But I think it also those speaks to be like huge gap in capacity for violence, whereas he would have no trouble doing that. But she is like, you know, I'm not an evil person like you are, Like I wouldn't cut someone throat like that. Like, yeah, she's probably like I wouldn't stoop to murder. Maybe, but it's just like when

he brutally kills an entire family for nothing. Right, it's like some time like considering the circumstances, I don't know, slid his throat, like he was incapacitated, he was injured enough that she probably could have done it. Yeah, then you get into a whole the whole like spiral of Then that changes the movie. Then you got to write it differently, so like how would failure have survived or how you know, how would this change? And I, you know, I just want to see what does that look like?

We need some AlterNet endings. Speaking of spiral, the mo Wanna spiral from Disney's Mohanna is also on the Faun's head. It was like, all this spiral imagery across both movies, there's a conspiracy here. I was like it because I was about to be like and that is the work of the illuminati, And for the next forty five minutes, I would like to take you starting with jay Z

and Beyonce at the top. Let's so they're obviously in control of the app Um, yeah, a lot of I mean there's Honestly, the movie is so dense that there were some images and references where I'm like, I know that this probably means something, but but there's only so

much time. Um. This was the first viewing of this movie that I saw the captain's constant razor blading of his face to have some significance of like he he has this obsession with control and order, but also and and you know, is down to use violence to achieve kind of arbitrary order of his choosing. So I was like, okay, I get at that time, delto I see you, I see you. I used to just think this guy grows a beard really fast, but I was wrong. Um, it

was like, what does what could that mean? He beards fast? I love the moment where like he holds the blade to the mirror and cuts his own throat, because like, yeah, I feel like that's the moment where you've already seen a do all these scene acts, but that's when you're like, oh, he like he loves this, Like he this is what he wants he's just so obsessed with death and dying and wanting to go out in a blaze of glory. And it's there and it's subtle, but I would I

do want to know more about the daddy issues. Yeah, okay, so let's talk about this. So this sort of I've found this really interesting because I mean, Jamie, we've also talked a lot about how, like so many movies just kind of boiled down to like a father son relationship or that's always some undertone or overtone and a lot

of movies. So here I appreciate that we get an exploration of how that kind of obsessiveness with like my father and my son can be really toxic, and that it can stem from a really kind of morbid place that has nothing to do with familial love and it has everything to do with just like like societal roles

and expectations and all of ye. Yeah, so the Dell is obsessed with his father, we come to learn, which we learned because he keeps his broken watch with him, and then we find out the backstory of this watch where his father died heroically in battle and as he was dying, he like smashed the face of the watch so that his son would know the exact time he died, because that's how a brave man dies, according to this, Because like, this is my first time hearing this, but

I'll I'll go with him. That's also such an an odd thing for you to want your kids, like I want him to know that time. Not that I loved him that, but the time when its like this time has actually been very traumatizing for him to know all this time. And here's something I don't get, so maybe you can help me understand this. But so we find out this backstory and then the guy at Dinners like Fidel,

is that true? And he's like, no, that's nonsense. My father didn't even own a watch, even though we've seen said watch with the smashed face of it many times because he's constantly looking at it and like fiddling with it. So I was confused as to why he would deny that same that. That's kind of why it made it so curious to me, because he's so obviously obsessed with it.

But then why would he deny it? Yeah, I don't know if it was more of his like pride or he's like, I'm I don't have feelings I don't keep my daddy's broken watch with me, and I don't put it under my polluminate sleep. Like I kind of it was easy for me to read that as he was lying, because otherwise it does kind of muddle that. But yeah, I was a little confused about that as well. But

why would he lie? I think it has to do somewhat with a like having to live under that shadow, because the officer was just like your father was such an incredible soldier undertone that you'll never be able to live up to. Uh, And so he's like fuck him.

That's you know, you didn't have a watch him. But one of the other like visual things that Germo has noted that I don't think I ever would have understood otherwise was that, uh, the entire movie lives alone in what I think is the mill or whatever that giant room is. But that giant mill symbolizes a giant broken clock because the background is all cogs and machines that are not moving. So he is so obsessed. He's literally, you know, cocooned himself inside of a broken clock. That's

all he lives for is smashing that clock and to die. Yes, I read that too. Yeah, that I was like, well, I guess I have to watch the movie again. Fine. Um, what I found funny about this whole watch thing is it basically the same exact thing happens in pulp fiction when Christopher Walkin comes in and he's like, hey, Bruce Willis character as a kid, be your daddy kept this watch up his butthole for two years so that I

couldn't then give it to you. And it's like, Okay, I don't know, but but like just a little bit more about this kind of father's son obsession, saying where then we learn before the baby is before baby Greg is born, they don't know the sex of the baby, but he just keeps assuming it's a boy, you know,

biologically male. I'm like annoyed that he was right about that, But it is a Greg everyone everyone, I mean, so does um Carmen and uh Failia also takes this at face value as well, So I yeah, it would be interesting if they turned out to not be right. But um, I guess it it serves the story that it is like a male baby because then he can continue to be obsessed with it. And it does make that moment at the end with like you mentioned, Jamie, where Mercedes

is like, you're son, isn't even gonna know your name? Bang, You're dead Greg SRG. Yeah, and then you would you would think best case scenario. And again, because we're talking about such a violent period of time, we don't know, but ideally baby Greg will be brought up by by rebels and would be kind of you know, that makes that's another way in which Ophelia's sacrifice would not have

been in vain. That she is inadvertently getting, you know, her little brother a better life, um, at least spiritually and probably in every way than he would have had

if he had stayed with the Captain. Yes, I had a quick thing I wanted to address here that um that I mean, it's it's kind of service, but I just wanted to, I guess, just even reference it because it seems like del Toro is kind of unambiguously referencing Alice in Wonderland a few different times in this um, like most prominently with the literal dress, which she isn't

you know, very fond of. But there it is of this story that is usually told and written by men, that features a young girl going into a tunnel and learning going into a floor vagina, learning a thing or two about a sing or two, and then coming out on the other side in one way. So I just wanted to reference um the other movies, some of which

we've covered, that take the same tax. So obviously it seems like the at least the popular genesis of it is Alice in Wonderland, where a young girl falls into a floor of vagina and meets a bunch of men that don't like her and and also in that case a mean queen, and then you know, she comes out. We've covered Coraline. That is another another a vagina that pops up, swallows her up. She learns a lot about her, her role in the world, and her feelings about her parents.

She's popped out of the vagina in the world. This also happens in Spirited Away, a movie. I have not seen it in many years, so I can't speak to

the specifics of it, but it's much the same. Uh. Young girl tumbles into a natural vagina, pops out changed um, and then pans labyrinth where this is This is the floor of vagina approach where she goes down a series of tunnels, meets a series of foes, and then I mean, I think the most tragic example where she doesn't survived in the traditional sense, but her memory survives, and she kind of graduates into she's not even going to move out of the floor of vagina, She's just going to

live there. I also wanted to uh, back up my my Little Journey to Womanhood metaphord, not because not just because they're is such a huge precedent for it in fiction from male a tours that are generally very very loved. So again, I'm not like dumping on it, but it is a thing I did a little bit of research on, like the Fun and Pan, The fun and and the like. The mythological creature of Pan traditionally is like a very

sexual character. So if we're reading that, you know, Pan is presenting himself and his little goat legs to to Ophelia, saying a series of things to her that are very confusing, giving her a bunch of what seems to her like random goals that she hasn't fully understand. I feel like that does lend itself to the read of like she is on this journey towards figuring out what womanhood is to her, because literally, the sex God shows up and she was like, I don't know what this guy is

talking about because she's ted. So that's my little rant on girls and holes. We love to toss a girl into a hole in popular culture. We just love it. I was worried about that too, because it's called pans labyrinth in the English translation of the title, but not in the Spanish one. It just translates to the labyrinth of the fawn or the fawn's labyrinth. But I guess because Pan was a more recognizable thing than a fawn, which for me that wasn't true. I was like, I

don't know what Pan. I had to get certainly misled some of us. Yeah, it's not Peter Pan, so what the hell? Um? Yeah, so what's the point? Unclear? But del Toro has said that even though this English translation of the title identifies the fawn as Pan, that the fon is not Pan in the movie, and has said quote, if he was Pan, the girl would be in deep ship. Um, and its very clearly stated that it is not. But

nonetheless the fun is also closely. Faun is still deceptive and there's some sex stuff with Yeah, and then I but then I also found Aristotle. I would love your take on this if you look at the I mean, aside from the fact that the poster is not about Peter pan Um, every poster I was able to find for this movie is a gaping vagina and there's just no way around it. Like the marketing of this movie was a lot of pussy. But I was able to find a quote from del Toro that kind of pushes

against that reading. I guess it just is. Really this is a case study in like I mean, he's saying it's not there, but I can't stop seeing it. Where he was asked in an interview with Filter mag the Russian was um. So often in fairytale analysis, there's a tendency to read any story of a young girl as a psycho sexual parable. But this film specifically doesn't go that way, Thoughts and del Toro says it doesn't at all.

I consciously avoided it, not out of prudishness, but out of the same reason why I tried to avoid the myth of vampire vampireism in Chronos. Blah blah blah blah blah. Up about Chronos in Pan's Labyrinth, I knew the psycho sexual angle was really tired. It felt very nineteen eighties for me, and I felt this was a movie about a girl who was on the threshold of making a

choice where she could cease to be a girl. But it was not about sexual identity, which I don't even think pushes back against how I feel that much, because it doesn't seem like a sexual identity thing as much as it is of like figuring out how you can survive as a woman in this world. I don't know, Yeah, because there's nothing inherently sexual in any of this. It's all very much about it does. But that's also wild hymn to say, because everything is a uterus in this movie.

Like I have Bragg, I have the Criterion Blue ray that is literally a vagina Aristotle. Yes, I did not even see that until, like, until you brought it up. Now, I mean I recognize the like it's a beautiful artwork by Becky Clunan. I want. I wanted the poster so bad. Of course, it's sold out in seconds, but it's it's similar as the regular poster where it's kind of the tree,

but it's also kind of the fawn's head. It all looks like a uterus, but that is she is coming out of a vagina, like the you know, the it's right there. It scrambles my brand. I don't think that there's anything wrong with this, but it is always weird to me when a male filmmaker is like, it's not that I'm like, but do you are you looking at it like I'm looking at it Like it's just I don't know. It is definitely an interpretation thing, but and

it also is a set design thing. But because we know del Toro is so involved in the process, it's kind of not like, well, he just showed up and there were all these vaginas in the floor, like he

I don't know. And I feel like this also kind of goes back to the essay that I mentioned initially that he's trying to influence your view of it with what his intention is, but that doesn't mean that that's still not there because he's still a man raised in a extremely patriarchal society, so that of course he has major blind spots that he just can't see. I think and we all kind of have that. We all have major blind spot you just cannot see because you don't

know that they're there. That's why I really appreciated this critical essay of him because you know, it does kind of make me appreciate him more while also recognizing, you know, not perfect. I love I love the hell out of this movie. There's and there is a vagina on every post, and both of those things can be true. Well, I'm also disturbed at this trend of it being I mean, the suggestion that it is is it can there be a psycho sexual interpretation of this movie about a ten

year old girl? Like why is that even entering the conversation for like the film critics and and like the filmmakers who are like, yeah, let me put all this vagina imagery into a movie about a ten year old, Like I don't I hate it? I agree, but I also feel like it's a valid question to ask because

it does happen. It is the right It's yeah, it's not so much the questioning of it, but it's more like, why is this imagery that we that we would see in a movie about a ten year old girl who is like about to start to come of age kind of thing? You know, Like it just it feels weird. It's uncomfortact that it even has to enter the conversation. That's what I mean. I feel like I would appreciate it more if he was more directing. I was like, yes,

it's about becoming a woman. She's never sexualized, we don't, you know, sex has never brought up, but you know, people grow up. It hasn't happened, right, Yeah, And I think I would appreciate that way more than like no, no, no, no no, that's not it. It seems like a little yeah,

this answer it. I had to read it like a few different times because it was like, I feel like that is almost that conversation that's telling because it's conflating coming of age with sex, which is, you know, a part of coming of age is navigating your feelings around sex. But it's not the only thing that happens. Come of age,

so much happens. But the idea that like you're reducing coming of age to like when losing your get your period or white like having sex for the first time, it's and it's also that's also like obviously a very like sis normative thing where it's like, well, you're you know, you're a woman as soon as you get your period, and it's like no. I went back to school the next day and I didn't know what kind of lingas

was for five years. Still I would say that so little of my life had changed other than we I feel like we've talked about this. I just was like, I think I shipped myself, and my mom's like you didn't, and I was like, all right, moving on, Yeah, I guess.

I mean, if there is going to be so much vagina and uterus imagery, and I would rather there be injury vaginal blood, like for a movie that doesn't really deal in sex very much, I feel like it's disingenuous to imply, like I mean on his end of like it doesn't have a lot to do with sex, but it does have a lot to do with like women's bodies or like sis women in a in a way that isn't exploitative, but it is very present. I don't know,

it's confusing to talk about. And where I come down on the whole thing is like, if you're gonna throw a bunch of all this imagery into your movie, then make the protagonist an adult woman and not a ten year old girl, I guess. And then also like, what does assist man know about a maturing female body? And why is there that obsession with it? Called bo burn

him off? Let's get Bo Burnham on the horn. Um, And as much as I love eighth grade and as much as I love pianez La Brentha, it is it really did makes you question, like why this is such a prevalent Well, we're really like why it is such a prevalent storytell like why is it such a pervasive cultural story for a man to write a story about a little girl falling into a vagina and learning something? And why why is it always assist man telling that story?

I just I mean again, I love this movie to death, but it's it's like worth bringing up and I feel like we had not as in death, but like a similar ish conversation in Coraline of like why is Neil Gaiman just like tossing this little girl into a vagina to learn a lesson? Why is it? What? It just?

It just happens a lot. So the moral of the story is I would appreciate more coming of age stories for little girls and more heroes journey narratives about girls and women that are actually written and made by women. But that said, this movie fucking rock. I wouldn't change a thing. And it's it's complicated, Okay, this movie is the greatest and it's also weird, but that's like, that's the beauty there. It is King of the weirdos. True, Yeah,

he's man. I also realized like halfway through that we we acknowledged the shirt that I'm wearing, But did it specifically say that it's a shirt that you got me that says directed by Gamma de Toro. Yes, send us a picture of yourself wearing it, if you would, Aristotle, and then we'll post it on our Instagram. We'll do, We'll do. You have a favorite del Toro movie at present slash has it ever changed? I do, and it

was gonna be something. I don't know if we're wrapping now, because I was going to recommend um Hans Labyrinth objectively good film, Oscar winning, beautiful, gorgeous movie. The Devil's Backbone is his other I believe he has three movies in Spanish objectively his best movies. The other ones are great and fun, but those are like truly the best, most meaningful, I guess, except for Coronasconos is good, but it's a little more cool than meaningful. But Devil's Backbone my favorite movie.

I have a tattoo right here on my arm of once again then, but the Criterion collection cover, and that's kind of the other side of Little Boys in a Boy's Home during the Spanish War hands his post. This is during and I read the Delta says that pans Obyrinth is the sort of like spiritual or thematic sequel to The Devil Backbone, even though they're not necessarily like

narratively sequels. They're like kind of spiritually companion films in the sense that they both take place during the Spanish War. But there's also I like to think that he has created a universe that he hasn't touched since of you know, a very dark, sad, grim world with a lighter side of the things that we consider dark, Like you know, the beautiful note always a Pan's Labyrinth is like, there's all these scary things happening in the fantasy world, but

none of them are as dark or as horrifying. Is what's happening in our world that actually happened, Like, none of it is as evil as that. And it's kind of the same thing with Devil's Backbone, where it's a ghost story, but the ghost isn't the problem. It's the men in the movie. Yeah, and it's a much smaller, more intimate movie. I feel like that doesn't make sense. But when you if you see it, you get it. Yeah, I gotta watch it that Unfortunately, I don't think it's

streaming anywhere. It's almost never anywhere. That's why I had to buy the Blue Ring. But it's worth it. And then Pacific Rim which we've done before too, and that's more of like a big dumb fun movie. We're gonna do it. We're going to get to shave the water at some point because again, talking about the Dug Jones Fish, we didn't even talk about Doug Jones King. Doug Jones. He learned Spanish for this movie. They didn't use his voice learned how to learn. They didn't. They didn't use

his voice, but they did. He did learn Spanish for it, but it wasn't good enough, so they dubbed it over with the Spanish speaking actor's voice dog, but Doug Jones rocks. I found out that he And it's too bad because this is a cultural image that has been taken by the alt right, which I didn't learn until I was like, this is fun and then everyone was like not anymore. Um, but do you remember that McDonald's mascot from the eighties that was called mac Tonight and it's just a mascot

with a huge crescent moon for a head. Yes, that's Doug Jones. Wait for McDonald's or because I'm thinking of U J. J. Leno right or Conan one of them also had a moon headed mascot. Maybe they were copying it, or maybe the other way around. But yeah, mac Tonight was I don't know before my time, but he was a guy with a big crescent moon and it was about getting food and McDonald at night. I see it's

all right now they all right. I don't even want to know what they've done with mac Tonight, but apparently they took him. He's gone. But he's Doug Jones back in the day. That was an early Doug Jones gig guy with a big he loves a big prosthetics. Sure do well, even with the huge as moon head. He's like, I'll do it, Jamie. Would you agree? Alfred Molina should have been in this movie? Yeah, he is part Spanish, he should he as an actor Spanish descent. Yeah, I

mean he is bilingual, like I feel. But then I do feel like if he was in this movie. He would have been playing someone really terrible, and I'm almost glad he's not in it because I don't want to see him be a bad guy. I think he would have made a great doctor call. Yeah, he would. He would have fit. He would have fit in this world too. I don't even know what I'm saying when I'm saying that he fits in like a fantasy movie, and he fits in a period piece like in many ways, Pan's

Labyrinth is a period piece. Yes, indeed, thanks for the excuse to go to Alfred Billina's Wikipedia today. What was he doing this year? Well, maybe he was. Maybe he was offered to roll and turned it down instead, he might have been doing something like the Da Vinci Code. I hope that's not true. That would be such a bummer if he was like, can't no, can do Guiarmo, I got a sweet in the Da Vinci Code. I don't know. This movie is so goddamn good. It's also

where it's not even worth noting. You just want to throw it out there that Enrico Lupi, who plays the king Father character, is also in the Devil's Backbone and in Chronos. He's another of your most frequenters until he passed well. And also, um, the woman who plays Mercedes is I recognized her from Et Mama Tempion. Yes, yes she is. She think is the only other movie I've seen her in the way. Let me make more great connections. Garmo A Fonso Krone in Youoritu three best friends. Alfonso

helped produce this movie. Yeah, I didn't realize that until researching for them. You know, he was involved in it, and that there was also I read on the scholarly journal Wikipedia dot org that there was like some disagreement about whether or that Inatu said that he viewed Pants Labyrinth as a truly Catholic film, and then del Toro was like no, which seems like it's kind of his thing. He's like that read is is No is a no

for me, which is so hard to like. I don't understand how he can say that when he's so obsessed with Catholic imagery, Like that's just so his jam and he was raised Catholic and he kind of hates it, I guess, but you can't ignore that it's there. Well, that's what I kind of yeah sometimes I mean, And also I have if I'm like I am I'm like, I guess if I were, if I were making something on such a large scale, I bet I would have some control issues with it as well. Of like, no,

that wasn't what I was saying. I was saying this, but but even so, it's like when you're able to make something on such a big scale, it's like it's cool that people can see different stuff in it and like see parts of them. I don't know, And also just like it's to be definitively like it's not about Catholic, Like I guess, I don't this like implies that you have more control over your what you're putting out subconsciously than you actually do. I don't know. Wow, art is

complicated art. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the film? He needs to make more Spanish speaking movies, hasn't done so in a long time. Yeah, what was the last one? It was Pants? And then he went to do more Hell Boys and then specific ram Aple Water Crimson Peak. I always forget that was him. And then didn't he burn a couple of years doing like almost doing Hobbit and then not doing Hobbit. Yes, well, this movie does pass the b actual test between Ophelia and her mother Carmen.

Between Ophelia and Mercedes um as far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination through an intersectional feminist lens, This one it's tricky for me because on one hand, you have this, like again a hero's journey narrative that is led by a woman, three women, really, I mean especially, and then two women or two female characters emerges like the most heroic characters of the film,

between Ophelia and Mercedes. And then I like that it's a fairy tale narrative that is about a female character, but it is not like a princess having to get rescued and falling in love with a prince, because like I think, Disney, uh, and you know, other entities have kind of conditioned us to think, oh, fairy tale, that's probably about a princess falling in love with a prince. So but I still like that you have like all that, like you have like an evil step father this time

in versions all that good ship. A lot of the components are there, a lot of the conventions are there, but it it subverts a lot of that stuff, you know, by being critical of fascism and you know, so you know, it's just the characters. I mean between again Ophelia and Mercedes especially, it's two female characters with a ton of

agency who are driving the narrative. But then you have the whole and again, I don't know if it's just how my brain works, where I am not good at picking up on symbolism and I'm not good at picking up on visual metaphors, like I just didn't even occur to me all of the like and I know it's right there, but just like all of the vagina and

the blood and like what that might mean? And what is the obsession with so many like male auteurs telling stories about girls going into what could be interpreted as a vagina whole and it's and then having an adventure there um, and like what are the implications of all of that? I don't know how to make sense with that. I'm like reminded of my days in film school brag where I would take like film studies class that had these like interpretations that I'm just like, what are you

talking about? That's not there. I don't see that at all. And then I'm like, well, maybe it is there. I don't know. I don't know again, I just don't know how to read things that are not extremely explicit. I guess so, and if you're roasting yourself, I don't know. I was like finished, but still has in yourself all everything that I it seems like I understood came from reading Garamoa's words. Yeah, and then also realizing he just has a certain language where some of those things are

kind of repeated throughout all of his movies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess like knowing you're knowing his entire catalog, definitely, he sure. Yeah, he loves asa metrical circle things. Yeah, the Moana spiral it's there for um, which is also probably like symbolism that it refers to something that I don't know about. Yeah, that one, I'm like not smart enough, don't know. So with all of that in mind, I

don't know what to rate this. I really love this movie on a like just purely like I love watching this movie. I'd give it a million nipples on our nipple scale. I don't know. I guess it would be like a three point seven five or a four. It's still rates really highly based on the characters and what they do and the various kind of thematic things I don't know what is everyone else gonna do. I'm gonna Klein, I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna do three three point

seven five. I think between that, yeah, because I mean, there is so much being done here in the fantasy genre that you don't get to see very much. You get also like, I feel like we we hit on it here and there, but like the commentary being made on class here, even though I didn't realize what aristole you brought up. It's kind of at the expense of

historical accuracy. But I really like the commentary being made on class here and the trauma that can come with trying to get out of the class that you were born in um in order to survive, and the sacrifices that come with that. Like, I feel like del Toro is really good at having those conversations a lot of the time and has a way of I mean, just based on the stuff of his I've seen, it seems to be like a champion of the working person. I'm very critical of the upper class, which, uh, a lot

of movies aren't. Where it's like, this is a movie about a princess, and it is about how the marquis, who are these people that they're in charge of? We don't care. So, in addition to three female protagonists that all are very different and have very different faiths, it makes me sad that the female hero's journey results in most likely her death. But it makes sense in the story, and I feel like that ties into other commentary that he's making. So it worked for me. It makes sense. Yeah,

I did the vagina metaphor. I mean, is I think I got more. It doesn't really bother me. It bothered me more when I found out that He's like, no,

it isn't. I'm like, come on the So maybe that was me just being a little like but it but but she walking into a vaginta guarmo and that's okay, but just like, don't be like it comes off a little fawn like no, no, no, don't question it, right, So so that I mean it also is like kind of any and he's interestingly he like is very clearly inspired by another narrative that uses this exact convention of tossing a girl in a hole to learn a lesson. He is openly admitted to that, but maybe doesn't I

don't know. I thought that that was interesting. I'm gonna go three point seven five because that's just what I'm doing today. I love this movie so much. It will always be my first Del Toro, my favor Del Toro, and Doug Jones forever. That is what I had to say at three point seven five. And I'll give one to each of the main three characters, and I'll give my last point seven five to the ferry that gets their head bitten off. I was also thinking three and

a half, but I do. I end of want to give it four because I think under a critical lens there's lots of faults and lots of things that could be improved upon or made clearer. But I think overall net good. It's a movie about two women, more than all three, but two women being rebellious in the face of extreme oppression, and I think that is it. You know, it's not a children's movie, but it can at least be hopeful in a good lesson taught. So net good

for sure. Not good. Yeah, I would say four, though that also feels at a little bit much, right, That's okay. I think I'll settle on a three point seven five because I think there's still room to maybe give Mercedes a little bit more characterization. I think there's room to have given the mother a little bit more characterization and more fully explain kind of like why she made some of the choices she's made. And yeah, it's it just could have gone a little bit further, I think with

some of the characterization. So I'll land on at three point seven five and all my all, my nipples. How many nipples does it? Dug drones fawn have? They must have four? Well, if a fawn is a part goat, right, goats, I believe you know, off the top of your head, I think they're they have like a four utter situation, much like a cow. So that's my guess. I don't know.

I really hate that this has become a part of my personality that I just know how nipples don't I want to really and you know what this ends today? This thing never never talked to me about. Yeah, no more cat facts. I'm moving on to something else what I don't know. But anyways to the toad. Oh yes, feminist icon, queer icon, the toad. The toad. Watching the toad deflate never doesn't make me laugh. When the when

the toad is just like I'm a balloon. I'll give my three point seven five nipples, you know what, I'll give him to the pale all of them to the pale man. Yeah, we never what was the pale man's real story? He has murals of him torturing children hanging up in his little cave, but like, who painted them? Did he commission someone? Yeah? Yeah, he's got a whole sh morgus board of food that he that you're not

allowed to eat? What is that? Is that class commentary that only the rich are allowed to eat the luxurious food? Also shout out to the production designer of this movie for for so many reasons, right, but mostly because I'm like, those grapes did look good, so tasty. Usually when someone like eats the forbidden freedom like that doesn't even like, like you must be so hungry, but the grapes are like, those grapes are gigantic. Though, I have to get back

into it. But that also was a little bit of a question for me, was we know that she's rebellious, so that's our understanding of why she does it purely out of rebellion. Because she is so rebellious, she disobeys what the font tells her. It's the grapes, but there's also no reason, like she has proven to be a very strong character, and you know, never do we learn that she likes sweets or fruits or anything. We never

there's no like you missed your meal. There was no real reason for her to have any strong feeling towards those grapes, Like she could have easily gone out of there, but for some reason we get the temptation and she fails too. Because it's like the other comparable like story thing.

I was like, Oh, it's like when Aladdin takes the lamp, but you also know why he wants to take the lamp, and that's kind of like set into his character when you know him, of like, while he survives by taking, like he has to, he has to deal to survive. This is built into his character where, yeah, it's not totally clear why she eats the grape other than the

big old grape because it just looks so tatous. Well, there is that scene where like she's sent to bed without dinner, but that happens several days before this, so it's not as though she's like hungry, and I don't think she's still hungry from that. I don't know if that's a really good point. Yeah, I'm not sure. Well, Giarmo answered that question. What are we supposed to say about that? Sir? We won't ask you about Vagina's ever again, we promise. Well, Aristotle has been such a delight to

have you here. Thanks for coming on the Castle. It's just nice to have you back. I know, we lower the embargo on men and then you come on for an episode, and then we raised the gate back. I appreciate it. Yes, of course, where can people follow you online and check out anything? You'd like to plug? Aris? Tacos on everything except for TikTok, you know, because who knows why Why make the account if it's not going

to be there? Yeah, all these tacos and everything. But I also want to shout out D s A and water Drop and street Watch and all those organizations and being involved with those and finding your local version of that because they're happening everywhere, and though not always perfect organizations, they are doing net good. Yes, and the work that you know other people should be doing and blatantly aren't. So mutual aid is the way, the light, the direction.

Can I also just say Aristotle that you posted some videos I think in July about like how to reduce your single use plastic waste, and I like really took it to her and I'm like taking a lot of measures to very drastically reduce the single use plastic in my life. Awesome, thanks for that. Yes, I've got a lot of good response from those videos, but I just hated doing it. I don't. I was like, I hate having this camera on me and just talking into it, so I'm just gonna stop. Well, it worked work. You

are legally obligated to start a YouTube channel. M Well, speaking of YouTube, we do have a channel, but we don't post anything of it but instead and don't expect that to start. Sorry, but you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes, and that's

at patreon dot com. Slash Bectel asked with that, shall we shall we go back down to a pretty I'm pretty hungry If you guys wanna see if we swipe something from the pie Man. Yes, let's do it all right, by by bye,