Mulan (1998) with Ceda Xiong

theaters really anymore? Um, But we just wanted to say hello, yes, and that we hope you're doing well. I hope you're feeling well and staying inside if you can, and if you do have to be out working, we are with you and we hope we could be a nice part of your day and that we love you all. So as to be expected, I'm sure this will come as a surprise to no one, but the upcoming live shows that we had scheduled, um at least the ones in Austin and Boston. The Austin one we had announced and

sold tickets for sold out. We unfortunately had to cancel that and everyone will be refunded. M We are still waiting to hear about l a On, so we'll see. Stay tuned. UM. In the meantime, if you need extra Bechtel in your life, our Matreon is there for you with extra episodes. We know a lot of people have been burning through a lot of episodes quickly, UM, and we have plans in April to do some commentary tracks for you to watch while you're at home. Audio commentary

April baby. Uh. In the meantime, please enjoy this episode and Moulan enjoy. On the dodcast, the questions asked if movies have women and are all their discussions boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy and best start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hi, everybody, I was like, I was like, where do what? I was trying to think of a fun in Oh. I don't know. I'm just excited for this episode. Hi everyone,

Welcome to the Backdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin drown Today, and this is our podcast about the portrayal of women in movies. Uh where we use the beck Dol test. I've heard of it to jump off, have a jumping off point, and then we you know, just do it deeper dive, not the whole podcast common misconception. I love when someone's like, oh, I've listened to your podcast, which, first of all, there's

never a need to lie about that. I've never been less hurt like when someone's like, I haven't listened to your podcast and makes sense, you know, like why would you listen to a podcast to shame our audience? Use silly sods. But like when someone's kind of faking it and then they're they're like, oh, that's the one where you spend an hour and a half figuring out if it passes the backtel, I'm like, do you think we just print out the script? And I like, M, I

don't know. It looks like that's a male character, so is not going to pass on to the next live we should do in April Fool's episode, that is just that, like us going through the script of the Shawshank Redemption and just doing what like people who are lying about listening to the show, I think it is. Anyways, this

is the bet. We use the Bechdel test, which is a metric invented by cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the back Doel Wallace test that requires that a piece of media have an exchange between two female identifying characters with names that is about something other than a man. Should be easy enough, especially for this movie. Right, Well, well, I don't know topic. It's kind of the no, well, it's complicated sometimes that's the thing, not a perfect metric.

But also we just have a lot to talk about today. I'm so excited for today. This episode has benny long time coming. We were going to do it a while ago, and then we found out that there was a live action reboot of this movie coming out, and then we had to postpone doing this episode by like a year, which has been a painful way but the way here we are. We were talking about Mulan finally finally, Yes, the day has come Um and yeah we have we

there's so much ground to cover. So without much further ado, let's introduce our guest. Um. She is a writer, a comedian. Um. She's been a guest of ours previously on the Crazy Rich Asians episode, and she's also made a contribution on our Gremlins episode, which we were all very grateful for and She's amazing. It's Seedi seng Hi. Thank you for having me back, coming back so excited to talk about Mula, which was one of the first jokes I ever wrote.

We actually about Mulan, really was. I had this bit that I was, you know, I recently booked the job. I got a role in the live action rem a Mulan, And people in the audience would clap, because sometimes you go to an audience that actually doesn't know you're joking, so it's very sweet when they do. They're like lapping, And then I would say, well, I'm going to be playing Mushu because it's always been my dream to play

Eddie Murphy. So yeah, I guess they're they've brought back Mushu for the live action remake, but not not Eddie. Eddie Murphy is not voicing it. But I just saw an IMDb thing where Mushu, but I don't know if

Mushoe talks, I don't know. Well, maybe my information is wrong, but I just today watched uh one of those like IMDb dot com originals where they like do a little they're all all all bangers, but they're like people were wondering would Mulan's Animal Friends return for the live action reboot, and no one knew for sure, but it seems like Mush at least Mush. I don't know about the cricket.

What does he what does he look like? Is it like one of those like scary like lion king, like photo realistic, Like I mean, he's a real Komodo dragon. You're like, that's not why I come to the movie, but it would be so weird based on what I've seen in the trailers, which seems like a like for a Disney movie. It's like a gritty action the first PG. Thirteen, the yeah of the first because I guess that they're they're like they're doing some real warship in there. Huh.

So again, Mulan is making some like serious like I guess it's called bushoo ushoo fantasy kind of moves, so lots of wire work that's really like body intensive. It should be incredible to see. I'm really excited about it. I'm like, I mean, is Mulan the first Disney princess

who presumably kills people? We don't see her rack up a body count in the cartoon, but I feel like it's implied that she would have killed the main bag guy, right, she lit him out somewhe she kills some well also, I mean she crushes a lot of people with that avalanche at A lot of people are in the aval but they also seen to mostly come back and survive that.

I have a lot of thoughts about how the how the enemies on this in this war are portrayed, which is like super racist, yes, like I mean we have so so much because there they're like, oh, like people who are on the opposite side of the war evil.

We're going to draw them darker than the rest of the cast and their zombies and they have like animal eyes, yeah, like the dark Like it's the way that it looks like the beast in Beauty and like they yeah, it's a crazy way to regard like the Humes, which is like the stand in for the the invaders of China

at this time. But it's it's so funny because he's got like fanes too, literally from the dead, and you're like, this is not human And this was the first time watching this movie that I love, but like there are some things where you're like, wait a second, I don't know what this war is about. What if Mulan is on the wrong side of the war, like, we don't know what if they're fighting over don't don't trying to like uprise against like a very like totalitarian empire. We

don't know, they don't and they don't tell us. They're just like, well, we love Mulan, so she probably on the right side of the work. But you're like, we don't, we don't. That's actually guarantee war is fucked up? Did you in this official stadium perhaps glorifies war a bit. Yes, that said, it's also a cartoon. Does that make it better?

I don't know, right, I don't know. I don't know if there's another Disney movie that deals with war, like I mean, I guess Lion King in a sense, like the skirmishes with Uncle Scar kind of warl that is because it's like different, but it's so isolated, such a small battle. No, this is like, this is historical. There's

an actual war that happens. There's people that are divided politically, and then there's the sort of the duty to the country, which is like what Mulan really stand for, right, Like, there are some like nationalism undertime duty to the I mean,

which I don't know. I'm like I don't even know how to feel about that, but but it ended up the military stuff in this You're just like, whoa there, it's just very And I was thinking about that because there's been a lot of writing about the reboot and about their like, well, is this movie like being to you know, over the top with like funded by military stuff and like nationalism stuff, And it's like that may be true in some ways, but it's like most Like,

I mean, so many popular American movies are funded by the military that I feel like it's disingenuous to be like the entire Transformers is funded by the fucking Marines.

Like it's so true. We talked about this in Independence Day with Lindsay Ellis, But like there's this like such a well documented history of like people who have a good relationship with the military get tanks to use in their movies, and their movies make a billion dollars and you're just like, I don't military industrial complexes is Oh boy, is it not good? Quote me on that, so let me get the full camouflage military industrial complex. I know we went into this being like maybe it's good, but

I'm here to tell you it's actually very bad. I mean, the part of the military sequence I found interesting was like how whimsical the army training was. That was like, that's definitely like a place in a Disney movie where that should happen, because in most war movies the training is definitely not whimsical. This is just like a giant

pole which belts around your way. And then also question, is Leshan like the only male love interest that takes off his shirt and a Disney movie, Well, Aladdin is pretty shirt like is pretty, but but he's his nipples are covered. That's true. S his body is very Suddenly You're like it's right there, right. And then I went back to my like I was like five when this

movie came out. I was just like, oh wow, like just like your weird little like baby brain being like this is different like this yeah, I I mean I remembered when that scene happened. I mean, um, well, let's dive in officially with we're gonna talk about the military industrial complex, but we've hardly begun. Um, ste what's your relationship history with this movie? So I was talking to Caitlin a little bit earlier, and I kind of missed

the boat on this movie. When I was growing up because I got a little too old for Milan when it first came out, so I actually didn't watch it until I turned like thirty, and so I came to its super late wash it when I was thirty so moved by it totally cried after like a first viewing as an adult, I was like, oh, wow, the you know, a story about the headstrown only daughter of a Chinese family,

I can't possibly relate to that. It was very It was very like I should have known that this was coming, and I still was not prepared for how much it moved me. Um, and I watched this again just like right before the podcast is to refresh my brain and the details. And it's still a very, very action packed story that has a lot to do with how the protagonist is self motivated, and I think that is something

that like we love to see in female characters. And she's just so she's so smart and has her own morality and she has such conviction and that's really like what gets her through all of the movie, really, and I love that turn at the end where she has to dress as a concubine so she successfully passes as a woman. There's a lot of like drag king stuff in the beginning, which I really love, and there's like kind of drag queen stuff towards me, and I was like,

this is such kind of a drag eccentric movie. There's a lot like yeah, I mean the gender performance, like the female gender performance in this movie, it's like it's kind of fucking incredible, Like it is really yeah, yeah, talking more about it, there's well, we will, we definitely will. I mean, there's so much to talk. I mean, I because there are certain elements. I just have never watched this movie in not uh like I love Mulan lens. That's the only way I've ever watched this movie is like,

this is one of my favorite movies ever. This movie came out when I was five years old, and I don't remember seeing it for the first time, but I know that I saw it like five hundred times. We did a whole Mulan Halloween and my family that, Um, I checked the pictures. I'm like, Okay, we were not racist, because you have to check when you're a white kid, you have to be like, did my parents do a good job. I think that they're a pretty good job.

I'll show you the picture, but but I should be the front page of the podcast this week for the record, because you gotta be careful. But yeah, like I was, I loved it so much. I love just everything about it. The Stevie one of the most cursed Disney musical collaborations in history, between Stevie Wonder and ninety eight degrees Credits. I was like, what is happening? I was ranking. I was like, I think it's the second most cursed collab.

I love it, but it's the only more cursed collab of the Disney Renaissance is in Sync and Phil Collins. That's the worst one. True to your heart kind of slaps. It's good, but you're just like, how did these don

did these people meet each other? It was that like Tarzan. Yeah, I think I've mentioned this before, but in my favorite press junket of all time, which is in Sync with Phil Collins, and and it's like peak in Sync, it's nine in Sync, Like Lance Bass is like, yeah, Phil Collins is pretty much the sixth member of in Sync. I wonder how Genesis feels about that. College is just grimacing or you're just like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen. All I have to say I loved

Mulan at the time. I feel like it was the first genuinely empowered Disney princess I had ever seen. It was because there is like some nineties girl power elements to this, but it really hit for me. Um. My cousin was Warrior Mulan. I was Reflection Mulan, and my brother was Shi. You were super deep. We were. It was a whole family like we were just like we're a Mulan, We're Mulan heads. So I love it. Yeah,

what's your history with it, um Cita. I'm like you where I had aged out of kind of Disney movies and I joke about having aged back into them because I'm going to see Onward tomorrow. Um. But yeah, I was twelve in this movie came out, so I was like,

I'm too cool for cartoons. So it just like came out at the wrong time for me, I guess, and I and so I didn't grow up with it, and I think I only saw it maybe once or twice, just sort of in passing, not paying that much attention to it in my like kind of more adolescent or

early adult years. And then I've watched it three times now to prep for the episode because I'm like, shit, like I hate that I missed this when I was younger, because like it's so good, like it's I yeah, I mean there's there's plenty to talk about, but I love so much about it. I love the songs, I love the music, and I love there's like these all these great montages. This is the first viewing that I I think because I haven't seen this movie in like six

or seven years. I think this is the first time I've seen it since I have become a beady once Wong stand I didn't realize he was. I didn't. I don't think I knew who he was the last time I saw this movie like in high school, and like I was like, wait, what, like so much good stuff. There's so much and yeah, I mean you were touching on just the character of Mulan, just like being so smart and rustful and outspoken, and like, yeah, it gives

us a lot to talk about. It's also I think for for girls that weren't like kind of girly girls, like it has that rezomie like um the reflection Mulan song that's very much about like trying to figure out who you're supposed to be in this world that tells you that you're supposed to be one way, but you feel a totally different way, and that kind of plays into the gender performance of it. But but that's soon also probably, Like I was thinking about Mulan as a

whole for for young women. I was like, this is a very good movie to also watch if you're like a female comic amongst a lot of male comics where you're like or is she's trying to fit into the army? I was like, oh yeah, I felt that we're like everything is disgusting, but you just have to like go along to be like, yeah, this is great and people

are still like we hate you. Like cool. Yeah. I was just talking about how we were getting ready for this episode today in a room with um two gay men and they were both like reflection and like spoke to me so much when I was a kid, of Yeah, I mean, because it is such like a general theme for people who feel like they don't fit into what the prescribed norm is, where like it's it's And then I did some research of I was like, oh, I wonder if this is a common read and it seems

like there's like a fair amount of writing from queer and trans writers who are like Reflection was like it I easily see that. There's that line where she says, like,

when will my reflection show who I am inside? I mean, And I think we've heard a similar read in The Little Mermaid where like arials, transformation, Um, yeah, like feeling like you're in the wrong skin, and a friend of the cast, John Ford, spoke to that a bit, yes, So I mean, I feel like that's always a cool There's plenty of criticism of like huge pop culture Disney movies, but the fact that like there are those big themes that they can speak to that make kids who feel

out of place feel heard is really cool. And there are such massive movies too, basically everyone sees them. So it's not just like, oh, this is a message that like a few people see. It's like, this is a message like across a generation can see that. That does difference. That really does. IM one of my closest friends from

high school. She immigrated from Haiti around the time this movie came out, and it was one of the first movies she saw in America, and she was like so impacted by it that she majored in Chinese in college, she's a fluent and she works in international relationship. Now she I'm like Mulan, Like, people love Mulan. It changed a lot um, all right, So I'll do the recap and then we'll get into the discussion. We open we're

in ancient China. There's an attack un invasion led by the big scary chan you, and the emperor is like, this will not stand. We got to recruit people from my army to fight these invaders. Then we meet Mulan. She is prepared, kind of cheer good. She is preparing to go to the village matchmaker because her family wants her to be matched with a good husband so that Mulan can bring honor to the family, because that's how a woman in the world of this movie brings honor

to her family. We meet the mom, we meet her mom, and we're like, oh, I wonder if this relationship will be explored, and then it's like no, and they're like, funny, Grandma Trope. I'm like, okay, it's kind of funny. And then her meeting with the matchmaker goes disastrously and she tells Mulan that you will never bring honor to your family, and that's when Mulan sings reflection about how you know, maybe being a bride is not the part she's supposed

to play. Then the army recruiters show up, and one of them is this guy, Chief Wu, and he's like, hey, the Emperor is ordering one man from every family to serve in the Imperial Army. And Mulan's father is prepared to serve. But Mulan thinks that he should not have to fight. I think it's implied that he was already um a warrior in a previous and he and he was injured and he like walks with a cane and stuff like that. So she's like, he should not have

to fight, so she decides to take his place. Um. She cuts off her hair, she dons her father's armor to disguise herself as a man, and then rides off into the night. And her family discovers that she has left, but they realize that if they reveal what she's done, she will be killed. Um, so they can't go to stop her. Meanwhile, and then Eddie Murphy, Eddie Murphy shuts up. Um. There's a lot of high jinks and mishaps here, but basically he's like, all right, I'm gonna go watch over

and help Mulan. I feel like he's just kind of warming up for Shrek this whole movie. Like he literally is just like maybe I could make a billion dollars off of doing this. He's just warming up for Donkey and never forget Shrek. Never forget Shrek, never forget Okay. So, with the help of Mushu and Mulan's lucky cricket, she goes off to join the army. And meanwhile, a young soldier named Shang voiced by Beati Wong and the singing voice is Donny Osmond. By the way, I know the

masked singer himself. He came in second place the first season. Um uh. He is made captain of this army. And I didn't catch this at first, but it's like a nepotism thing higher basically where his father is the general. I didn't either. I don't know why. When I was a kid, I'm like, I don't know if I was just I was so hyper focused on, like I love Mulan, but I never realized that Lee Seng was nepotism and that he was grieving for like half because his father

dies I totally forgot that. I thought that scene where he sticks the sword down, puts his dad's helmet on top, and Mulan sees him grief. I was like, that's a moment. She was like, panties are wet a man didn't exactly on the battlefield right after his father's deaths were just like we're all there. She's seen him his shirtless and then you're like, you're like, yeah, yeah, inappropriate, but you

you get the sentiment. And then that's like, I think, a great moment in terms of like showing how like I mean, they don't go all the way with masculinity in this movie and kind of examining it, but the way that you know, he has to to maintain his role of authority compartmentalized like enormous grief totally. And then he gets on his horse and he's like it's fine, and everyone's like, oh, it isn't. And then they have to you know, war war indeed today in addition to

other things. Yes, um okay. So he has made captain and he begins training this group of recruits that Mulan has joined, and she says, hey, guys, yes, I'm definitely a man and my name is Ping, but Mulan as Ping kind of gets off on the wrong foot accidentally with a lot of the other soldiers um but eventually she wins them over and they become friends, and the

training begins and Mulan is not good at anything. She almost gets sent home, but then there's that fun training montage and we see her get really good at everything and one of the greatest songs in Disney history. It's so and I didn't like in that long Slapper montage you see the Mary Jane trope entirely like done away with because it was it would be like, I feel like a classic Disney steak to be like, and she got to war and she just was good at war.

But it's like you see that she learns it and really like commits to it, and so do the men around her, and it's like it's a struggle for everyone and it's like goofy, but at least you're like, okay, at least they're showing like it's not it's not that Mary Sue like chosen one kind of narrative, like she

really rested her asked to be a great soldier. We see that in Aladdin with Jasmine where she's like awesome at like flipping over across buildings and she's like, I'm a fast learner and she's like yeah, it's like you've never left your palace, Like how are you right? You're just like you've never left any Yeah there, when would

you have practiced that? That's a really good point because I was reading about the legend, and in the Chinese legend she actually learned martial arts and sword fighting and everything from her dad. But if you had gone that route with the story, you would have been not able to have the training montage because I think what's what's so great about the trade being montage, in addition to the sun and everything, is that it's the camaraderie with

her friends. That's that's what builds like an army, right, Like speaking of the military industrial commers, one of the many reasons that so many men are so what it imponded to it is the commonality of experience of going through war training. Yeah. Yeah, and like seeing that, I

don't know. I like that they not only managed to show that, but they may as you show it, and maybe the most entertaining way history of war movies, I know, because like compared this training montage to like the boot camp sequence in Full Metal Jacket, and you're just like, oh, these are totally very different, like we know which one is more realistic, but which one has fun um Okay. So then she goes through the montage. She gets really

good at everything. She's the only one who can figure out how to get to the top of the poll to retrieve the arrow that Shang had fired. She's st smart um and by the end she's at the top of her class, so to speak. Um. Meanwhile, the Hun army is advancing and Mulan and her fellow soldiers are

sent to fight. They come upon Shan You and his giant army of Hans who start to advance on them, and they're about to aim a canon at Shan You, but Mulan is like, no, I have a better idea, and she aims it at the mountain, which causes that huge avalanche that berries Shanu's army, and everyone's like hip hip, hooray for Ping. But Mulan as Ping has been wounded, and when her wound is tended to, that's when everyone

discovers that she is a woman. And in one of the rewatching it goofy ist music stings I've ever heard of, Like when comes in Oh, when Lesian comes into the tent and Mulan is revealed to have titties, there's a sinister titty sting where it goes like it goes like Dune, Dune, and it's like she has t and then everyone's like, like, it's so weird at least soapy in the middle of this great movie. But I like rewound. I was like,

wait a second, they did that. There is a sinister like I guess that that like if you're but you're like, that's a little on the nose, but yeah, it's like she has t. Well, when it's revealed that she is a woman, um, they're like, this is treason and the penalty was supposed to be death, but because she saved Shang, he spares her life. Because of that awarding male mediocrity, I have to date this man because he didn't murder me.

It doesn't seem fair. So instead they just abandoned her and she feels as though she's a failure and she's about to turn and go back home. But this is also when she sees Chanyu's army rise up from the avalanche, like the snow and she realizes she has to go worn the army, so she does this. She arrives in the city. No one will listen to her because she's a woman and these men do not, and they view

her as a trader. They're having a parade for her work, but yes, they're they're taking credit for It's in fury. She's like, She's like, the Huns are about to kill you, and they're like, go away, shut up. Yeah, while they're like spending however much money, literally taking credit for her work, and it's like, what a beautiful parade that she cannot get through and then she gets no credit for It's like it's a celebration of her accomplishment that she has

to overcome because yeah, so so rude, um so. And then during this victory celebration, the Huns attack and kidnaped the emperor, but Milan and her friends fight back and dressed in drag while doing it um to trick the Huns. Yes, they saved the emperor and Mulan kills Shan you and the emperor is like, wow, Mulan, you're so cool. Here's a spot on my council and she's like, no, I'm good.

Actually I'm gonna go home to my family. She returns home, her family realizes, oh, you have brought us great honor, um for being a war hero. And then Shang shows up and he's like, oh, you're cute. I just realized. This is where like in retrospect you're just like, yeah, I'm not crazy, and I'm not I'm not happy about the ending, but and that's so let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And

we're back. Yes, um so, because we just finished Caitlin's famous recap, I think that on rewatch Um, the ending is one of the parts of the movie that holds up the least well for me, Um because I feel like, you know, at the climax of the movie, the whole country bows to her. I'm like weeping. It's the most cathartic, amazing, Like this woman who has been through this intense sacrifice and like she's done so much and she's finally like

just getting credit for what she did. It's so just like you don't get to see that a lot, especially in the kids movie, and and then to see what the like where that leads to is I feel like you see this whole movie of Mulan kicking open this door that was not open for women, and then the movie ends with that door just kind of shutting behind her because the and and especially bothers me and the way that they wrote that scene between her and the emperor,

and then how the Emperor talks to Lei Shang about her after she leaves, which he basically is just saying she's not like the other girls. It doesn't make him reconsider should women be given more opportunities? Should women be allowed to be in the military. He's like, you don't mean a girl like that every dynasty wink wink, And it's just like totally missing the point of what the movie seem to have such a great understanding of. And they're just like, oh, like, yeah, women can do stuff

as long as they're like this woman. And even even she is just sent back home to domesticity and a boyfriend and she has to be okay with that, right, like to be fair. That is how the legend also kind of ends, and legend ends so much worse. Yeah, Like but it's like it's and I feel like a movie that does so much more than most movies made for young girls do, Like they could have taken some artistic license there and could have given her a life

that didn't have to just do it. And she has a boyfriend now and that and the end right, and I have complicated feelings about this because like the Emperor is like, hey, you're so great that I want to offer you a position on my counsel. He's like giving her this, this position of power, and she refuses to do that. She's like, I'd rather go home and be with my family, and that's her choice. But also the movie makes her make that choice, and like they don't

need to do that. I don't know, it just felt weird, and I was glad that at least it's like, oh, she was offered an opportunity, but that almost makes it feel weirder to me. Of like her whole like the Disney Renaissance model, of like the heroine at the beginning sings about what she wants and it's to be like seen for being different and that's okay, and then at the end she just decides to be the same. Like

that that doesn't even feel consistent with the character. All of those two those two points are really good consistent with the way that this movie portrays Mulan. I think maybe what they were trying to do is hard come back to the myth, which has Mula and being like, I love my family so much and war is going to come between my family, and I have to stop the war so that I can be with my family, And I don't think the movie does that very well.

I think the movie focuses more on her individuating herself, improving herself, and so it is distinctly disappointing at the end when she reverts when she gets I mean Lesha and is a boyfriend, which is great, but like, that's

not that doesn't feel like where we've been led. Yeah, and that also was never her goal, Like it didn't we weren't led to believe that she she The movie starts with her outright not wanting a relationship in any way, to the point where she's like really frustrated that it's being forced a p and so I mean, it's it's I feel like, at least it's like, you know, she's choosing her partner, and that is different from what is

being presented to her at the beginning. But it just feels like a not a fair compromise for the character that we've I don't know. And it's weird because it's like when I was a kid and when I was watching this movie growing up, I never really thought of it that way, but watching it now, I was it was It's not like I mean, it's still an incredible movie, but I was kind of like, I feel like Mulan would want more. I don't know, and well, what's your

ideal ending? How would you want to see her end up? My ending? Okay, I was trying. I was trying to think about this. I if she ends up with Leashing, great, but I feel like if her and Lea Shang they worked together maybe and like she's proven herself to be this incredible soldier and maybe they could work alongside each other as and which I mean that's probably not historically feasible,

but it's a Disney movie. Like I'd like to see her go on and like in my head, I'm like flash forward to Mulan training young girls in like physical combat, Like that's badass, even if it's in her hometown and her dad's there and he's like, I'm so proud, and her mom is like I wish I was a character and I wi had in her life, right, but it's like Mulan training young girls and maybe she's home with her family, but it's like something of like has something

that's more than what she was rebelling against at the beginning, right mind, when my version of the ending would be if she accepts that position on the Emperor's Council. Again, assuming it's he's not like, you know, an evil dictator. We don't know of this dynasty, but we're not sure, so hopefully, you know, he's very progressive. He's you know that he like more women on the council and right exactly, I mean hopefully that's why he offers on the job.

But she accepts the position, she moves her family to like the Imperial City so she can still be with her family. But you know, she's got this powerful position in politics and stuff like that. And you know, if she ends up with Shang, fine, but for the movie to end that way where like he shows up and he's like, hey, I just realize you're hot. That just feels so tacked on, especially because like what you were saying where right around the low point of the movie

screenwriting degree, I had to mention it. But um, she has this whole in realization where she's like, oh, I, UM, maybe I didn't do this for my father, because that's what seems like her motivation is initially where she's like, I'm going to save my father's life, and I think that's probably still part of why she makes that choice, but she realizes like, maybe I didn't do this for

my father. Maybe I what I really wanted was to prove that I could do things right, like, because we see her failing so miserably at like being what's expected of her as like a traditional woman and a bride.

So she's like, but here's something I think I could be good at, and it turns out she is, and it ends up I feel like those themes end up kind of fighting with each other a little bit, where they just like by subscribing kind of strictly to the like mythic mulan that has existed in culture for thousands of years and then also adding in these nineties themes, but the nineties themes don't really pay off in the way that it's written, um, and they kind of just

they're like, well it we have basically this ending, so let's just keep it. But it is like she has that line where she literally like maybe I wanted to do things right, maybe I wanted to look in the mirror and see someone worthwhile. And that's like, I mean, she articulates that herself, and I feel like that desire is maybe paid off a little bit in the fact that, you know, trying to bowse to her, she gets credit

and she gets validation. But to think that that is like, Okay, well I'm done, I'm self actualized, and now I can just be a wife just doesn't It feels like it undoes a lot of what had been set up. I like that they try to add these modern themes, but I just feel like they're not fully paid off on It's like the themes are modern, but the actions are historic but not, but then the historical actions undermine the themes. Yeah, it ends up kind of like being like, yeah, in

a little bit of conflict with each other. Yeah. I just think maybe in history two women have always found ways to to enact rebellion in ways that you just just not obvious. And and an historical record is so shitty at keeping record about women in general. Who knows if if Mulan didn't. Okay, so in my version, Mulan

besides that living as a man is pretty awesome. So she goes back to her hometown, tells her parents maybe like assuages them or does something where she like assuages their fears because there's going to be news all over about her, and she just goes on and lives as a man and like figures out like how because she's so successful. As I love this reason, listeners, please share

your ideal ending of Mulana. We all agree the one that we get isn't the perfect one, and I mean, there's just seems like there's three better ideas in the room right now, I think, so maybe the live action one will you know, it'll be closer to one of these.

Could I really quickly share just the the sourcement, just a quick summary of what the kind of legend um and how it goes, because I wasn't totally I knew that it was based on something, but I didn't know if it had something to do with history or for a strictly legend. It seems like it's legend um, but so here's a quick wiki summary. It is officially based on the Ballad of Mulan that goes a little something

like this. It's set in the Northern Way era, which is between three eight six and five thirty six, which is like somewhere in the time that the movie is also supposed to take place. Is a D or BC a D but you know, a long time ago. We don't know what the politics are at this time. We still don't know who's right. I try, I was really trying to do research of like is this a real war? Yes? Who is right? I couldn't figure it out. I've got confused.

I'm sorry. Uh. The poem starts with Mulan sitting worriedly at her loom as one male from each family is called to serve in the army to defend the Tuoba Realm from the Ruin invaders. Her father is old and weak, and her younger brother, which I'm like, oh, we cut him in. Well here's a dog. When she's like little brother, little brother, yea the dog. Well, her younger brother is

just a child or a dog. So she decides to take her father's place and bids farewell to her parents, who support her, which I think is an interesting difference. And she tells her parents I'm doing this. I kind of like that about her away. She's already skilled in fighting, having been taught martial arts, sword fighting, in archery by the time she lists in the army, which I think is what you were saying to about her dad. And the interesting thing about Chinese women is that like kind

of feminism went through different waves. I mean, the kind of feminism that we know about ancient Chinese women during the Confusion periods are like very like subservient and like like supposed to obey the patriarchy. But Chinese women also went through periods of time where they were the head of the household and they were like more pushed to

the forefront, and those records are lost in history. Of course, it's comforting to be like, maybe it happened there, It seems like Mulan, especially because like for a story to persist for this long and like it seems like this story was written in a period where women had more agency than possibly we do right now. Um, So after twelve years of fighting the army, so she's in the military for twelve years, and after twelve years the army

returns and the warriors are rewarded. Mulan turns down an official post and asked only for a camel to carry her home. Wouldn't it be great if she left on a camel. She's gretably joyed by her family. Mulan donned her old clothes and meets her comrades, who are shocked that in the twelve years of their enlistment together, they did not realize she was a woman. So that's the story.

So I feel like that element the ending is kind of pulled from the legend in but then like some of the parts I think about the legend that are really cool are left out, Like what if Mulan left with her parents blessing? That's kind of wild, And like what if her father had actively trained her that would have been I don't know. There's like parts of this ancient story that feel more progressive than the story where right.

I wonder if, like the this adaptation was like, well, let's really heighten the patriarchy here, but then also like bowed down to it by the very like in the very final scene of So did y'all check out the credit the writing credits for this movie. So the story is adapted by Robert C. Somebody somebody, and then the actual screenplays written by like five different people, one person

being I think Chinese. I think there's one person of the fighters, Yeah, is Chinese who her other writing credits I found were Toy Story two and My Little Pony Movie. So she's solid, solid record, solid. Yeah. I was reading on Cora. I just got curious about what the Chinese think about Mulan, and I just love Cora and all it's freaky people the right like ten pages for every answer. And one of the commenters said that Kung Fu Panda

was a better depiction of Chinese culture. Cannot disagree because

comul Panic got a lot of things right. Well, let's talk about I mean, the depiction of Chinese culture in this movie, because a lot of the criticism I've seen around this and again I'm like a dumb white lady from Massachusetts, so my knowledge is limited, but reading just a little a little bit about the criticism surrounding it, it seems like there there is this like disconnect in adapting Eastern legend to Western pop culture, Like there is

like some disconnect there that like it works for Western audiences in some ways in a way that like doesn't it doesn't. I think so. Some of the reading that I did was that Mulan as a like the four Thousand Lines poem that it is, like, you know, a lot of Chinese students have to take the entrance exams that allow them to qualify for university. A Mulan is part of that curriculum. So so it's essentially like the

hardest test you have to take. It you have to know like four thousand lines of a poem like Mulan has a totally different kind of place in the Chinese like psyche, it's gonna like it's like like if you had to read you know, like Katalas or something like Latin geeks would know what Catalas is. But that's the kind of test that it is, you know, So that that's that places it in a different like it's very reverential but also very scholarly. So there's that part of it.

But I think what I noticed in just the production design of the movie is that they just mashed up

Asia in the movie. So like the soldiers uniforms look Japanese, they look like a very Samurai influence, and then there were a ton of drums, which are very Korean, and so I think when they when this movie went to China, I think Chinese people were just like what the actual fuck, Like what the funk am I looking at on screen right now, and there's this tiny dragon that's voiced by Eddie Murphy, you know, and also named like mushi, which

was like offensive in itself. Yeah, it's it's named after an Americanized Chinese dish, even that in itself, like I read some because I I didn't realize that Musho is in the new movie. I thought he was cut out because there was a lot of criticism. It might be

very wrong. It might just be a dragon who is probably like photo realistic, but like to look at it, I can't say, but I I when the first because a lot of the analysis I was reading was when the first trailers were coming out and people were just kind of reacting to it. But um, you know, some

American audiences were like, where is Eddie Murphy? And then the response was like that character was offensive in a lot of ways and kind of like and like just and also like, I mean, at least was meaningless and had no grounding and anything that was realistic and then at worst was like yeah, kind of like offensive and like you just named something after like americanized Chinese dish that you've had white male writer, um, of which there are three on this movie. Yes, there's a lot of them,

there is, uh. For from what I could tell, it was for writer for white writers, two women and one person of Chinese heritage, who is a woman who you would think, couldn't she just write the movie, you would think, But no, you need the backup of some people such as and it's kind of I mean, it seems a little sinister to me that there are some writers here who uh there's two writers in particular who are sis had white male writers who went literally went to Harvard Um.

So just a person we've encountered, but especially this writer, m Philip Lizebnik, who is a writer who seems to have specialized in animated children movies with non white protagonists, in spite of the fact that he is a sis had white male who went to Harvard UM. It's very sinister to me that you could trace a whole generation of kids worth of like held misinformation, if not racism,

to like particular writers. But Philip lizette Nick has credits such as Pocahontas, uh, probably the worst one of all, Mulan, the Prince of Egypt, The Road to El Dorado, The Lost Treasure of the Knights Templar, like just movie after movie after movie that mischaracterizes non white protagonists. Um and kind of creates these very Western narratives around cultures that they couldn't possibly understand. I mean, those were hits too,

and they were all hits. And I think that's the only color Disney release Ease right, Diseasesees Switch and the other writer who kind of has the same thing as Chris Sanders, whose other biggest hit was Lilo and Stitch Um which Hawaiian is a Hawaiian culture. Chris Sanders as from Colorado, and he also fun fact this is is it fun? I don't know. He directed that new Call the Wild movie with Harrison Ford in a Pilo tennis balls, So you know, he's fine. He's never been. He's finally

back in his old white man genre telling stories. I guess. I don't know, Um and a Dog, but it is. I mean, it's like the two writers with the most credits are two white men who have been telling non white stories from a place of ignorance for their entire careers, to the tune of millions of dollars. For your consideration, Let's take another quick break and then we will come

right back and we're back. We're back. Um. I have a list of ways in which this movie subverts a lot of Disney movie troops that would like to share, especially of this renaissance era, because this is one of the later Disney Renaissance movies us all the way. I think people might disagree with me, but I do not think this is a princess movie. You could disagree, but I think that's also a good thing, not positive, um

to me. Unlike a lot of other Disney movies which are like the ones that are geared towards girls, they are princess fairytale narratives. And even even though this one is kind of based in ancient legend, and you know it does feature a female lead, it's not like a princess, you know, getting locked in a tower needing to be saved by a man, her prince charming any like. None

of that. Yeah, so, you know, just the message that rich, conventionally beautiful, usually white, young stiss women who are princesses looking for prince are the only type of women who whose stories are worth telling. Um. But Mulan subverts that whole thing. Um. I think she is the are of a wealthy family though, just judging from property like her own, like Zi, Yeah, it was, it was like very large. And usually in China you can tell how fancy people

are by how high their doorsteps are. Interesting, the higher to doorsteps, the wealthier they are. You have to cross with like massive threshold. Well by that metric, Geah, they're chilling, they're good, keep the rats out nice. Next one is that kind of like piggybacking off of it not being like a princess fairy tale movie. Um, Mulan's Gold does not have anything to do with finding a man or

like having a romantic interest. And you know, while Shang does show up at her house at the end and it's implied that she ends up with him romantically, it's like not the focal point of the story in anyway. It's it feels like more of like an afterthought, like danu mall thing than any major part of the plot. Thank you for saying any time. Yeah, um, And I would also argue, well, here's something that I am not too happy with, but I think Shang is like not

the best love interest. Agree, he's hot, he's hot, nipples. I was trying Okay, I pause, I couldn't talk. Does he have nipples? Because Disney has this weird thing where they're like men can be shirtless, but they can't have nipples. He does have kiples, he didn't, okay, thank you, because I was like King Triton didn't have nipples, and that that kN Tritton does does have there just dominent nipples.

Back the nipples because there was a time where they were shirtless men but they didn't have nipple because maybe King Triton's nipples scared them off. Maybe, but like Aladdin does not have nipples. Aladdin was just so sexual. They were like, we got a total back because the genie also doesn't have nipples. Both male protagonists are shirtless the whole time. They don't have nipples, and then you're just like, who is this or got anatomically correct Asian male nipples

for the audience Another point for the movie. The next thing on my list is that Mulan's mother is not dead. She does not have a dead mom the character wise, characterwise, she is not alive. She could just be the grandma. They could have just folded that into one character, which is like, yeah, there to this day, shamefully, one of my mom's favorite Disney exchanges in the Whole Cannon is towards the end where the where Mulan says would you like to stay for dinner? And the grandma says would

you like to stay forever? My mom howls, She's like the funniest joke ever written, Like that's my mom's bar for comedy that exchange. But Grandma, Yeah, So her mom is a lot, her mother isn't alive, and we also see her grandmother. Both of those characters really just want Mulan to be a bride, And the movie does frame Mulan's relationship with her father as the more important relationship in the story, and I think a little more like

even more frustrating. On top of that, is like her father seems to be the only person in her family who believes that she is capable of more than being a you know, like very conscribed feminine person, which is frustrating and like doesn't I don't know like that, Like her father is the one who believes in her, and her mother and her grandmother, who are both seemed to be pretty strong female characters, don't believe that she's capable of more. It's like, well then they might as well

be dead, you know what I mean. I don't want them to, but but you know what, like the fact that her father is the one who is presented is by far the more most sympathetic character, where Like he's the one that believes in her and he gets the big moment at the end of the greatest honor of all is having he as my daughter. And I'm like weeping, but I'm also critical. Next thing is, from what I could tell, the villain is not queer quoted like the

villains are. It's just racist. It's just racist that way better. They don't even have human skin tones, that's like they're and he has yellow eyes. That is I mean, that is like something that is like a major issue I had on a rewatch of Like they are drawn to not be people, the people who we are not given any perspective on why are they fighting? What are they fighting for? It? They're like they're on the opposite side of our protagonists, and so we're going to draw them

as gray, immortal animals. What if they're fighting for like universal health care is just like fuck you girl. More likely, what if they're literally canvassing for Bernie? I mean, that is how Bernie grows up, but then it's like but ultimately they have some good ideas. I don't know. My guess is that in the context of this kind of time period in China, there's a bunch of warring tribes.

There's like there's no real China like per se. You know, China's in its four thousand years of history has had so many different iterations of its kingdom. So the sort of fancy side, the fancy Chinese in this movie are

like the ones that have cities and stuff. Most likely there were the people that were leving taxes against the people that were more nomadic because they're because they have the infrastructure to do it and to collect taxes, and the invaders, usually nomadic invaders don't want to pay taxes. That's why they're nomadic. And maybe that's that might be

what the invasions about. But the timeline is also super distorted, so I in in the movie it says it takes place during dynasty, which ended like a hundred years before. Like the Huns, the legend and the movie don't take place in the same I don't even know how intentionally that's done or if that was just like scattershot White writer being like here because the Han dynasty, from what research I've done, seems to be kind of like a

Golden age of Chinese history. So I don't know if a white writer did a light google almost like sure, let's put it here, um, But that's not It seems like the Ballad of Muan takes place after where we're being told the movie takes place, which would be in BC. Not so confusing. Ancient history is wild in any case, the villain is not queer coded the way that many

villains of this you know, Disney Renaissance era are. I wouldn't give that a point though, because it's just racist instead of it's like a racist and making it to seem like it's a zombie animal. That's true, okay, so withdraw, but speaking is just worse worse. Well, and I don't mean to sound like I'm defending anything here, but the queer coded villains are also racist in these in you know, Lion King and because they always have darker skin and

things like that. Yes, I mean, and this is the very least, but like at least in some cases the queer coded villains have been reclaimed. I do not see anyone reclaiming like like, like, fuck you, Disney, I'm reclaiming Sean You like no one has reclaimed Sean You. Plenty have reclaimed Ursula in a very powerful way. That is like a middle finger to the Disney Corporation. That's also given him a lot of my She's a businesswoman and a lawyer. Of course, Shan You has made zero dollars

in the past ten years. If the color we're talking about is green, shaw You is negative. Another one. Mulan never has to be saved. I don't think me if I'm wrong, but I didn't. I don't notice any moment where she had But she does save. She saves Shang during the avalanche, and then again towards the end when um Shan You is about to kill Shang and Mulan like throws a shoe at him, and she's like, it

was me who took your victory away. And then Mulan and Shan You battle each other, which leads me to the next kind of trope being subverted, which is Mulan gets to defeat the villain during the climax of the movie, and she fights with weapons and pots, pans domestic items, which is how we normally see if a woman is allowed to fight and defend herself. It is with traditionally feminine objects, right, Like Mulan is using like real weapons, whereas her friends, her army buddies, who are dressed in

dragged by the way and this and this climactic sequence. Um, they are using like fruit to fight the bad guys. So it's like, guess, I mean, I don't know what that suggests exactly inversion that you're like, it's like, it's like men who are presenting as women still using domestic items to fight with. I think, yeah, it didn't bother me. Well, the fun part of that scene on the roof with Shang You is that she's fighting him with like the sort of the board identity items, like a random stick

or something. Right, But then she takes shang you sword from him, And that's the bad ass of where you're like, oh, ship's about the guest real you got your sword taken away? Stereotype. You're like, listen, raises villain, she got to the top

of the pole. You don't understand, Like it's exciting, um, And I well, I was worried that this wouldn't be the case because you know, we see in a little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast, where even though the protagonists of those movies are women, it's always the male love interest who steps in and like defeats the villain.

But so I was like, oh, no, is this going to happen again, especially when I don't even know where Shaning is for the majority of the Yeah, he's like I'm honestly, he doesn't kind of burst in and fight Shan you for like a minute, but then then he gets knocked away. And then Mulan takes over and right fights with weapons. She uses cannon, she uses swords and both narrows and like all this stuff, and Shane gets pretty much sidelined from that, you know, final climactic battle sequence,

he breaks her fall. That's how important to the fight is he breaks her fall. He doesn't want a well placed poll could do. Um. So yeah, those are the main things I clocked in terms of this movie, um subverting, And I just think that like Mulan is a character overall, is just better characterized and like someone the Little Girls and anyone who's watching this movie can look up to far more than the main stree is Mulan, Like she fucking rules like no one will ever talk me out

of mulan rules. She's amazed and and she's also from what I was able to track, the first non white person, whether justified or not, included in Disney Princess Cannon, who isn't sexualized within an inch of her life, because that was a huge I mean with Jasmine Esmeralda and Coca Hantas. They were three brown women of different ethnicities who were

over sexualized, and it was a big problem. And this was like one of the first things where you're, like, did Disney take a note because Mulan is not sexualized, she like her body is mostly hidden, right and and and that kind of lines up with like, her character has no vested interest in appearing in a sexualized way.

And it's like, it's one thing if like a female character is like I want to present a certain way, but that is not her stated intent and the movie doesn't subject her to anything that doesn't make sense, and that like that that is like, unfortunately a huge step forward for Disney Renaissance movies, especially as not like I mean not they sexualize all women, but they especially over

sexualized non white women. So in that way, you're like, and there would have been an opportunity because there's that scene where she takes a bath and like the pond, she gets naked, and there's right but like all of

that is handled like very responsibly as far as is handled. Yes, But then like that reminds me of the moment in Little Mermaid when Ariel has just gotten her legs for the first time and she's swimming to the surface and then she bursts through the surface and there's this shot she's like silhouetted by the sunlight, but it's like really sexualized where like wet hair whips around her whole body is rising. Yeah, I mean, god, I don't want to I mean, how can like all of my various eating

disorders be traspect to dizny movies? Don't want to think about it. But I don't think Mulan was a contributor. So um well, that's a good transition into talking about

how masculinity is portrayed in this movie. I think that it's mostly good points that are brought up, but I do have some thoughts on it where I feel like Mulan's character in many ways is presented as a direct challenge to like Musho, who is a character that I'm like, I honestly am like on the rewatch, I'm like not very attached to because he is, like the joke is that he's very fixated on his own size, and the

joke is that he's kind of misogynist. But we like him and like I kind of had it with that, and like whatever, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey and we salute him. But in general, I mean, I like those scenes where Mulan is presented with traditional masculinity, which is like sweaty and aggressive and mean, and she's kind of like you, I hate that I have to she

resents that she has to participate in it. Uh. There's that scene where Musha is talking her through her first interaction as a man with a man, and it's like she punches him in the face and she slaps his ass and that's the whole interaction and it like sort of works and you're just like okay. But and then

there's that other um. The other interaction that Mulan has that I feel like is in complete challenge to the masculinity presented by the soldiers is when they're singing a girl We're fighting for a song that I have problems with but where Mulan's only line in that song and she's like, how about a girl that has a brain that always speaks her mind? And everyone's like like fuck you.

Like that was the moment where I was like female comic where it's like she's almost fit again, but then she almost stands up for women and everyone's like, get out of because the lines before that, they're like, we want a woman who's really hot, who will you know, really congratulate me on my masculinity, my battle scars, I don't know, and then the one guy is like, I don't care what she looks like, but she has to cook me meals all the time, which is a fat joke.

Also on top of that, it's just that I've kind of conflicted with how the soldiers that aren't Lee Shane because I feel like he's in like romantic interest category. But the three soldiers that she becomes friends with, there's good things and there's bad things because by the end they realized they should never have underestimated paying Mulan and that a woman is capable of so much more than

what they were singing about. But ultimately it's kind of I feel like, kind of falls into like the friendly misogynist trope where we hear them there's a lot of like constantly they're like, I want to woman, I am very like committed to this style of soldier misogyny that also feels very Western too. It's like very Western culture, but we also love them and it's so it's like they sort of learn a lesson at the end, but I feel like it doesn't go far enough because they

are just like lovable misogynists. Ultimately, I think they're They're supposed redeeming scene is at the end in the that battle where Sheng You comes out and he's fighting Le Shang and then the emperor's gone and they actively decide to group around Mulan. And when they make that choice, that's the that's the that's the choice that's supposed to

justify all the misogyny I think. And I it's like and I like that it it laid lands somewhere, but there's still a whole song about misogyny that thinking that we know by heart. Yeah, And it's like somebody so everything in a movie is intentional, nothing's accidental. Somebody was It's paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for that song. And then singers were also booked time separately to sing that song, and then sound engineers were also paid to

miss that song. So when you think about how much work it takes to put us on into the movie, the question like does this misogyny the anthem have to be in this movie about like empowering a young girl who get three songs in this movie, and this is one of the reflection make a man out of you and girl they're trying at the beginning when there's the match. I mean, twenty of the songs are aggressively misogynists the

first song, in the last song. So once again, I don't want to sound like I'm defending anything that's bad, but like I read that is one of the obstacles that like Mulan has to overcome, is like misogyny, and like that's why that song is there. Do we need it there? Do those lyrics so doesn't doesn't have to slap like to laugh. It's like they did too good of a job with the misogyny anthem, And I feel

the same. I feel this. I feel the same way about like I used to tell a joke about this then and I was like I gotta grow up but one of the best songs in Hunchback of Notre Dame is the priest singing about how he wants to murder a woman if she won't fuck him, and it slaps. It's so it's such a good song and I know every word, and you're like, this can't Like the villain songs are always the best songs. Maybe we could interpret this as the villain song. Maybe I feel the single song.

I mean, it's like, I feel like that is kind of a great area. But like I feel like the song with the worst message shouldn't slap the hardest. I see your pointing. Yes, that's a new rule, putting it down. I do has to be like not the best song. Yeah, it should be like the collaboration between Phil Collins and Insane, you know, like that should be the writing team behind this.

Is that it has to be there. It has to be like mediocre and not memorable, because if it's good, then you'll know all the words and you'll, like, whether intentionally or not, sort of internalize it, you know. I do, like though, where like Mulan's relationship with those like three soldier friends of hers like lands, where they once they realize, oh she is worth trusting. They get on her side again.

They dress and drag and then they like use the method that she used to um like shimmy up the poll during their training, so that gets called back to that's how they like get into like the emperor's like chambers so they can save him, like all that stuff. So I at least like how Mulan has allies by the end um, of course, none of them are women.

She has no female friends in this story. That's that's the big failing of Well, no, I wouldn't call it a failing because the story wasn't sort of meant for this, that the myths and Mulan doesn't spread amongst young women and make young women want to like take places for their fathers and rewards, and that she Mulan remains an

exceptional woman. And that's like, that's always like the thing that the pick me trope, you know, like where you like pick me, I'm special, I'm not like these other girls, And unfortunately Mulan does fall into I'm not like other girl's territory. That's so that I mean, just you're saying that, it's just like because we've been making fun of the not like the other girl's trope for so long, but the way you just for I mean, like it does I feel like they're not like the other girl's trope.

There isn't really a not like the other guy's trope. And I feel like that is a way to tell women that you have to believe that you are the only person who can do this as a way to discourage you from encouraging other women to do the same thing that you're doing. Like it it does feel like I mean even in in our common experience of comedy, like I was always fresh rated by like why are all the like it's so easy for male comics to

make friends with each other. There's there seems to be really not a lot of intense competition among them, where when I was starting, I felt like female comics were felt to be in competition because there were just less spots for them, and so a defense tactic would be and not like the other girls, like well what I do is and what the other people do and it is.

I feel like it's like a patriarchal thing to be told, like you have to be so confident in yourself that you want to actively discourage other women women from doing the same thing I mean, And I've been thinking about this a lot lately, the idea of like not like

the other girls, and and what does that mean? Because on one hand, like the way this movie partly frames that idea, is Mulan kind of rejecting femininity in a certain way, or at least the type of femininity that is often forced on women by men in or by patriarchal standards in that might make her seem like not one of the other girls, but that's in a way that like, that's her choice. She's expressing her authentic self, you know, she's she might not be as feminine as

other women or you know whatever. But to me, I didn't really have any problem with that the way it's at least that specific aspect of it is depicted in this movie, because um, the whole setup, like the whole first act of this movie is us being shown Mulan not fitting the mold of what's expected of a woman and a bride in her community and culture, like you know the world of this movie, Um, because what's expected of a woman is to be quiet and delicate and obedient,

and you know, these porcelain doll wives who will bear children and you know Mulan doesn't really want to participate in that. Um. There's whole song, the you know, the one that we forgot about, the You'll bring honor to us? All I think is the name of it. But you know, the lyrics are things like a girl can bring honor to her family in one way by striking a good match. This could be the day men want girls with good taste, calm, obedient, who work fast paced, with good breeding in a tiny waist,

sing a Cain. I can't. I don't know that they're there, I know, but I think that that song. I just have such conflicted feelings about it because I feel like that song is used to make every woman in the movie to look bad. Yes, Like why is that? I know? I feel like it comes from the same place. Yes, the only ally to move on in her life even remotely as her father. Right, Okay, yes, I agree with that.

I guess what I'm saying is just the idea of like, you know, being yourself and if yourself is a little like, you know, tomboyish, Sure, if you don't want to be a wife, um, and like that's just like who you are and what you want and like as long as you're like not dismissing or judging other people who do want that, which I don't think isn't is Yeah, so I agree, there is like a conflicting message to be had here because that whole setup serves to show like, yeah, Mulan,

isn't this like obedient, submissive woman. She's strong, she's outspoken, she's smart, all that stuff. But it does end up painting all those women who do like want to go to the matchmaker and be matched with a husband. It makes them seem like, oh, what fools. It paints them very broadly. Yes, and to think about everything economically, because every decision that these characters make in life is tied

to like how they're able to live. Is that the women are making these choices because they have to marry out of the family because the family can no longer support them, you know. So it's like they literally are getting married to live. That is that That's something that's like in the first brush of this movie feels like

a choice. What's really not a choice? If it's frustrating to see a movie of any I mean, and Mulan is not the only movie to do this, and it's not the worst offender of this, but to make it seems like this is what women truly deeply want because they are petty and vapid as opposed to like literally this is the only way in this historical context to survive,

and there are complicated feelings that come with that. There is an opportunity to show that with her mother and her grandmother, but it just kind of ends up seeming like they're not exactly shrewish, but like rigid in that way of like. And I feel like, as a kid especially, you don't fully understand where that's coming from, and the movie doesn't really attempt to explain it to you know, I think it's it's almost too complicated for the movie to explain. But the place that comes from is does

feel shallow. I agree, Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's like it's but ultimately Mulan is the like the best heroine in Disney Cannon up to this point, so it's like you have to give it its due and you know what else, she is the baldest woman in charge. I even though she doesn't like shaver head or anything, but she does cut her hair. That is like such a great afe that montage. I'm like I'm like, it does so much to like from it, And I'm like, oh, this like glorifies going to war. But I'm like, but

I'm crying, so I don't know what I feel. It's like Ultimately we do see her like making a gigantic sacrifice for the patriarchal figure in her life to go to war for them. But but you're also like, but then she realizes, like, I did this for myself, So I don't I love it? I mean, and the idea of I've read a number of things that are about

gender performativity theory as it pertains to this movie. One great analysis I read was independently published by writer named Julianne Fung, who generally praises and argues that the main theme of Mulan is a film is about gender performance.

She's she's using the hit She's using Judith Butler, you know, like she's but but saying that basically, one of the things that makes remarkable is that she recognizes that gender is in many ways a performance, and she learns to perform it too, and and then by the end of the movie has like effectively convinced hyper masculine soldiers that gender is a performance to the point where they're willing to experiment with it themselves at the climax where they

dressed and drag very confidently and are successful, and you can make an argument of like is a mockery being made of them? Is it kind of played for laughs?

I think in if some ways it is in the same way that the climax of the Lion King Toman is wearing this little like grass skirt and he's like, it's not totally great because it's a little bit of joke, but it also like on paper, it's like these hyper masculine soldiers are willing to play around with gender performativity theory and like that doesn't happen a lot of that's cool and they're not punished for it. They're successful. Yeah,

they they defeat the villain who's just advocating for socialized medicine. Um, that's because because he's sick, he's jaundice. Why is medicare for all? The villain? But I don't understand. Um. One of my favorite lines in the movie is when um Mulan like first shows up to like the boot camp and she's something happens where she like punches one of the guys to like try to fit in and like

be you know man. But um, she says, you know how it is when you get those manly urges and you just got to kill something because like she is, it's like just you know, gender performance. The last thing I wanted to say, just like something that I because I've been trying to sort of keep up on as it is recording. None of us have seen the new Mulan movie. It's not out. I really hope that it's good. They're the other ones have not been, I mean, but

it's also like they've all made money. They it's very possible that it will be fine and make a billion dollars, which is also like whatever I'll see it. I have

yet to see a live action adaptation in theaters. Um, I've seen most of them and I have them, but like this one, I will see because Mulan means I think of this era the most to be out of any of them, but it is there is still it seems like that persistent problem of this movie is trying to be a negotiation between the American and Chinese film industry. Is the two most powerful film industries on the planet, and from what I have read, about the plot of

this movie. There have been narrative changes, but all of them that I've read about, you're just kind of like,

is that better or is it just different? Where in this adaptation the idea of arranged marriage is really really pushed when it's like this was never even a part of the source material, Like it's really frustrating, and it seems like what the live action adaptation is referring to instead of the source material, which is more progressive than adaptation, as it's referring to an earlier draft of adaptation that

was scrapped. Because what I found in my research was the first pitch of this movie is that she that Mulan is betrothed to Lee Shang, and that through resentment of the person she's betrothed to, she's motivated to pose as a man to get out of an arranged marriage, which is, however, you feel about it, very different from the source material, and that seems to be and I don't know what the exact but it seems like it's instead of it's just like, man, something written in ancient

times is more progressive than what we're doing now. Just fucking Christ. There's an alternative version of her love interests, which is that she was. It's actually a really progressive vision of love, which is something I don't think about

with ancient Chinese stories. But she's engaged. She's one of the most beautiful women, most accomplished women in the village, and she's engaged to a man who appreciates her unconditionally, and even though they're absolutely in love with each other and he's like literally Mr Perfect, she breaks the engagement to save her dad. It's like fully like seeded choices as an individual, So she breaks her perfect engagement with

her perfect man to go save her dad. And then during the course of the battle, she meets her fiance again. And by this time, because her fiance is such an amazing man, he's the military strategist in this war, so she has to hide from him because she's like in full drag as a man. So in her sort of hidden agenda where she's on a different side of the

mountain from him so that he can't out her. That's how she defeats the enemies, because she's in the right place at the right time, which is also like, how do I feel it's more interesting than this idea that I just read. Wow, I'm like, I need to take a second on that one. The last thing that I had to say was just a funny uh anecdote that just I think just like speaks to how rigid the Disney formula was, especially at this time, where it's like female protagonist has to sing a song about what she

wants at the beginning. She has an animal sidekick and a secondary animal sidekick. This is like well documented in all of them. I think it's most clearly taken from Bocahunas, where you have Miko the Raccoon and Flit the bird. There's two and Mulan is a copy paste of that, where I guess that like like executives were pushing the cricket so much. No one wanted the cricket. Everyone was like, the cricket doesn't do anything, cricket can't talk. Why is

the cricket here? Everyone, including the two sis had white male directors, were like, we don't want the cricket. Uh. Director Barry Temple said quote the directors didn't want the cricket in the movie. A story department didn't want the cricket in the movie. The only people who wanted him in the movie were Michael Eisner had to cricket when I was a chod. Then Harry Tumble says, I was sitting meetings and they'd say, well, where's the cricket during

all this, and someone would say, fuck the cricket. So just if you're wondering why the cricket is very spark because everyone was just like, we don't know what to do with the cricket. You have Eddie Murphy, what more do you want from us? I mean the cricket is lu shue sidekick, was your psychick. He's like a forced to your sidekick. Justice for the Cricket. He knows how to right. We see him like writing something on the lead can read. He can read and write. He's very educated. Yeah,

why can't we in Justice for the Cricket? No one wanted going back to the live action thing. Um the live action Milan seems to have eliminated the villain of Sean you uh and added instead a witch. Um, the hawk or the falcon or whatever type of bird that is that we see in the animated version is now a witch who can anamorphe into this bird. It needs to be seen whether this is a good idea. I mean, it adds another female character, but I could be violence exactly.

Goldie is amazing, so I'm here for it, good good um. And then Mulan seems to have a sister now, as referenced in one of the trailers, so I don't know hard to say how important that character will be, but they seem to be doing what all these live action Disney movies are doing, which is like add some female characters, some female friends for you know, the women the female protagonist in the movie to like appease fans. Probably um well,

and I'm glad that we are seeing. And it's also a female director of the new Mulan movie, although there's still she is a white lady from New zeal And. So I feel like it kind of remains to be

seen to how effective this adaptation will be. I feel like there is a lot of and Lyndsay once again, Queen Lindsay Ellis has done and excellent if kind of like oh no to watch video essays about the kind of woke ifying of these Disney reboots and how meaningful is it and how much of it is motivated by money and just saying things that modern audience is wanting to hear, while still not ultimately like updating what their values are. So we'll see, we'll see. I want to

be I'm I'm cautiously optimistic. But we've but five of these movies have come out and none of them have been good. I hope it's good. Um does a movie pass the Bechtel test? I don't think so. I actually forgot to pay attention once again. I think, yeah, the grandma and the mom might have had a conversation about Mulan, which technically passes the Bechdel test, right, I think it depends. I think on this on not like strictly like it may pass once, but the context of what they're talking

about is always marriage and marriage. I feel like it doesn't pass. I don't know. I was reading in the forums of like there's been more so than almost any other movie I've ever checked on this because I thought at the end, I was like, I don't really know, and then I checked in the forums and people are back and forth. A lot of people are like, technically yes, some people say that the female ancestors talk to each other, but we don't know whe their names are, so for

us doesn't pass. I'm going to say that it for me, it doesn't pass. And I think that that's a testament to mentor the fact that this is a movie where we have a very strong female protagonist who has no

women to talk to. Right because even the conversations between women, either whether it's you know, Milan and her mother or grandmother or the matchmaker, the context, like we said, of almost every one of those conversations, even though there might be like two line in exchanges where a man's name isn't mentioned, the context of the entire conversation will still be like are you primped enough to be a bride? Kind of thing to a man. I think that this is kind of a movie ultimately that I to my

grave will defend Mulan. I love Mulan the person, but I think in terms of how this movie portrays women, it ultimately is like the exceptional woman and not that women are exceptional. Yes, yes, indeed, that's always way of putting it. That's my pull quote. Also, that is that is what I'd like for you to put on a T shirt. Um, bye bye. Well, that brings us to

our nipple scale, serified nipples, basiness representation of women. Um. I mean, all things considered, it does a pretty good job, at least compared to other comparable Disney Renaissance movies, it is, you know, the most empowering one to date. And then you know, then Molanna came up along where well, but Molanna came along almost twenty years later, and Molana isn't perfect, which contrary to our critique. Um, But like I said, I wish I had had this movie to grow up with.

Um Instead, I like latched onto a Little Mermaid and we already talked about how many problems that movie has. Um, I think I'll give it a three. Um, I'm that might be a little too generous or maybe not generous enough. Sometimes I really miss fire on the new Nipple rating. And you know, it's a hard metric, but you know, I think the way that it subverts a lot of the tropes, specifically of Disney movies, while it also adheres to a lot of kind of the you know, problematic

things that we've already discussed. Yeah, I think I'll stick with a three. Ummulan is a character is terrific. I hope this live action reboot does her even more justice. Um remains to be seen, But three nipples, Um, I will give one of them to shang Um and his visit bowl nipples. Um, I will give well and then I'll just give the other two to Milan. I'm gonna

know three and a half on this. I'm also very biased towards this movie because it's like one of those movies that I have seen a million times and it feels very like in my DNA of just how much I love it. But I feel like for its time, this is as progressive as children's media was getting on a mass scale. I think that like young just young people in general seeing this movie like got a view of a female protagonist that they really had never gotten on a mass scale prior to this point. She is

never a damsel in distress. She is very motivated. She is amazing. I feel like the main fault of this movie is not letting that inspire the women around her and making her. I feel like it almost is kind of oppressive to isolate her as the exception to the rule rather than someone who could inspire the women around her. Um. And plus the other thing I mean, I think the

way that the Huns are portrayed is like flat out racist. Um, the fact that this movie was directed biasis at white men and majority written by them, and the more you learn about them, the less good it gets. Um, there's a lot of classic Disney faults going on here, but I think that they, in spite of a lot of stuff, they managed to pull up. I think maybe they're most progressive movie to date at this time, and at least

a lot of them. A lot of the cast are voiced by Asian actors, a lot, but not all of them. Not all of them, but more than I expected, honestly when I went through The Soldiers, right, yes, so you're like, uh, you know, you know, Eddie Murphy's warming up for Donkey whatever. Like, there's a lot of stuff in this movie that's of its time, such as the Steve You Wonder ninety degrees collapse couldn't have happened in any year. But ultimately I think it's net positive. I would happily show this movie

to a young person today. Um, I think it super holds up and it's kind of I don't know it. It definitely changed my perspectives at the time, and it's great. I love it. Three and a half nips to Go to Mulan one and a half ago photo realistically to Lei Shang so I think I will do three nips Mulan to to Mulan one to Lei Shang being portrayed as a leading man Asian love interest, which is pretty

rare in all movies across all American like filmmaking history. Um, nipple really taken away for just a weird mash up of Asia they presented. Sure, I feel like they could have definitely done more research, just been a little bit more specific. Just um, I don't know, asked one Chinese person other than the one Chinese like woman of Chinese descent who worked on this movie. Yeah, or in the on the writing to well otherwise thoroughly enjoyable, really love

this movie. Yeah, sure, well seta thank you so much for being here, having me, having you. Um, what would you like to plug? Where can people follow you? I am? I am working on a lot of things, but none of them are pluggable, So you just follow me on my Twitter at Slowbear s l O B E A R. Nice, amazing,