Miss Congeniality

nipple jello shot had one. They're making their way around. They're right typical man, they're right in front of them. Uh So, I mean, we've really to set the scene. We've got a spread, We've got jello shots of nipples, of various eyes is. We've got a lot of nipple representation in the jello shots. I'm going to pick up a particularly large one here. It's good. Uh And then if you guys need a drink at any point in the show, the Five Nips and the Free Bush are

available at the bar. So thank you Emissary for making us these specialty cocktails. They're delicious, They're really really good. And thanks for having us. That will pass the Bechtel did what is It's hard at the live episodes because it's like they know what it's about, but we still

have to say it. We have to housekeeping. So we we talk about the portrayal of women in movies, we use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point, which is a test developed by cartoonist and writer Alison Bechtel that requires any piece of media have two female identifying characters with names speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue.

You'd think it would be possible for every movie to do this, but if you were at our Nightmare Before Christmas episode just now, you'll know that Tim Burton can't do it. I cannot do it. Some people can. It's hard, it's not hard, but it's it's not hard. It's so easy. We have been talking for minutes. I haven't brought Tim Burton. And that's on that thing that I said I would never do. I did it. So we're talking about Miss Congeniality today. Yes, clap if you have seen Miss Congeniality. Yeah,

and no shame, no judgment. Clap if you have not seen Miss Congeniality. One bartender in the bag, not bad. Everyone did their homework. Everyone. I love when everyone does their homework. It's very exciting. Yeah. Also, this is a modern classic and there's no excuse. So Miss Congeniality is spoiler alert. Oh has been one of my favorite movies. Really. Okay, so that's so. As you might have noticed, we don't have a guest because this is this is just us, baby,

It's an intimate gathering. So what's your history. I love this movie. I'm pretty sure I didn't see I was too young to see it in theaters brag, but I did. My My cousin Tammy is here and we have for sure watched this movie together nine million times. There are various vhs is of it circulating throughout the family and the world. Yeah, it was just like one of my Still the only form of self defense I know is saying from Miss Congeniality I like memorized. I was like, oh,

this is useful. I don't know if I could actually execute it, but yeah, whatever, solar up. No, I'm kidding, solar Plexus is hard. It's the gut. Tammy is a black belt also, Yeah, she's like a triple black belt. I encourage everyone to fight my cousin after the show. She'll she'll win. But yeah, no, it's It's always been one of my favorites. I think I first saw it either with my mom my cousins were both, but I watched it at least once a year. Wow, okay, I

love it so much. Great. I haven't seen this movie much. Sorry I didn't grow but they probably only saw it for the first time a few years ago and uh enjoyed it. I watched it. Here's why I watched it because I don't know if you know this or not, but I did get a master's degree in screen running from Boston University. I hate to bring it up, but I wrote a script with a similar ish premise. Um. My script was about a woman who takes improv classes so that she can learn how to go undercover as

an FBI agent. Very cool story, I agree, So did not make it to the big don't know anyway, So that was like the script I was writing. And I watched this movie as research. Would have been in like two thousand thirteen or something like that that I saw this for the first time. Okay, okay, So we came in at a very different points a late Miss Congeniality bloomer.

It's okay, you got there, that's all that count. Uh, there's okay, something that I suspect will be polarizing, not as polarizing as dry scams web scams, but maybe close as Miss Congeniality was the first movie I saw Michael Caine in. Mm right, Caitlin first saw Michael Caine and Muppets, Christmas Carol. Yeah, lots and not have a feeling that maybe there's some Batman people and there is well I'm sure he's been in other movies. But that's so wait okay,

so so clap, clap, your a little pause together. If Miss Congeniality was your first cane, okay, we got a few. If Muppets was your first cane, if Batman was your first cane, yeah, we're adults here, right. How about the movie? Is it Elfie from? This is a real thing that Michael Kine was in? Again, I have a master's degree. It was from like the seventies or something, so coming in with slightly different backgrounds, but so shall I do the recap? Let's do it. Okay, So Miss Congeniality we

meet Gracie Heart. She's an FBI agent. She's a little rough around the edges, but when we meet her when she's a kid. For yes, she punches two boys in one scene. Great moment in cinema. It's great. I like that scene a lot because I don't know. I thought it was like, there there's a boy that is about to get beat up because he's being a quote unquote like sissy and like he sucks, and then Gracie comes

to his rescue by punching out the bully. And then she approaches the boy she saved and she's like, hey, I think you're great. She has a little bit of a crush on him, and then he rejects her and it's like, now I look even stupider because I needed a girl to rescue me. And then she punches him out. I feel this is a very like realistic depiction of how a young boy would react in that situation. Definitely, and I wish that I could punch. I found that

seemed very cathartic and good. My only problem with it is when he's like, you're a girl and she's like, well you're a girl, using girl as an insult. Yeah, But other than that yeah, perfect scene, no notes perfect. So then she we meet her as an adult and she's got a middle part. Guys, she's in bad shape. The movie would have you believe middle there's nothing wrong with them, but for some reason that is like code for like, yeah, she's got a middle part and she

doesn't plug. So she is undercover with the FBI. She's a field agent, but you know, she's got frizzy hair, so she's not hot yet, and she and her crew are looking for a serial killer named the Citizen. The figure out that the Citizen is planning to target the Misunited States pageant, so they're like, hey, we better send

someone undercover to like scope this out. Then there's a very sinister scene using hacker technology that is just hacker technology is often misapplied, and speaking on behalf of my community, I apologize where they do. They're looking for the right agent, which just means that they're looking at pictures of their co workers in bikinis, and everyone is like t he he we love this, and then oh what if we

put our austin a bikini? And then oh wait, he's right behind me and we're and we're laughing, and we're laughing but we're troubled in the year. That's not good. We can unpack that scene at a moment. There's a lot. Yeah. So the agent that they end up selecting to go under cover to participate in the Miss United States pageants, Sandra Bullock, turns out she's hot and her colleague Matthews played by Benjamin Bratt, Oh my god, hot, terrible character,

unbelievably handsome man. So he's leading this operation and he convinces her to do this whole thing. So they meet with Miss morning Side, Kathy morning Side, Candy Bergen, and Stan Fields are all buddy shot. The Chat that's what they call him. They call a shot. That's disgusting, okay, the shot they meet with the shot. Okay. So she enters the contest as Miss New Jersey and she gets teamed up with Victor Michael Caine. Great impression both of us because he's like a pageant coach, and he gives

her this major makeover. They bring her to like a warehouse like they's so it's like an airplane hangar. Are you ever so ugly you need someone to rent a building to fix you? It's upsetting how much Princess Diaries they need a room for a couple hours. But Sandra Bullock, apparently Sandra Bullock in her middle part, are so suffering. The flags at half masted and they like locked down. I don't even know where they are. Yeah, it's a giant building and they needed it to turn Sandra look

into a beautiful woman. Believable. So then she goes to the orientation. She meets miss Rhode Island. Oh god, we love her. So you know she's working on her things. She like it is a beauty queen. Now she does her talent. This this thing you the listeners at home, Jamie and I both just rubbed our fingers on our classes. Would be so confusing context alright, So and then they get some new evidence that the envelope from the Citizen was licked by a woman, which is like, what is this?

DNA does that? We know she's a woman, but that's not that's not how that works. Well anyways, the movie has to continue, so right, So Kathy morning Side is mean to her, victors mean to her. She's like, I quit. But then Benjamin Brad's like, but look how hot I am And he's like She's like, okay, I'll stay. Then I get there like, oh, miss Rhode Island, she's a terrorist maybe because she's like Tita and they're like, she's

she's just in Peta, like that's it. She's like for, I don't like for and they're like, well, clearly she's a killer. She's but in order to like try to coax some information out of her, she hangs out with the gals and gets closer to them, maybe even make some friends, and learns a little sounding about herself something. And then she learns that Miss morning Side is getting fired by we already knew the shot was getting fixed, we didn't know that Candy was getting dumped as well,

and this is a game changer. Also, Candy Bergen has an unfuckable son who becomes relevant as the movie goes on. Yes, Frank, that sounds cruel, but he is dressed like a turtle repeatedly, and he's literally the turtle turtle guy. But then they catch the citizens are like, wait a minute, we we got him. There's no need to be here at the

pageant anymore. But our friend Heart, she's got a hunch and she's like, no, I think we need to keep our eye on Miss morning Side, which is true because she ends up being so bitter that she got fired that and that's God's implied that she lost a pageant twenty five years ago and poisoned the winner so that she could claim the throne. She's I also don't understand was her plan to blow someone's head up? Yes, okay,

that is exactly the plan. That's a bad plan because the crown is like a bomb, right, but it's like that, I don't know. I'm just like, of all people, Miss Rhode Island, she's so pure well so, so it's time for the may and pageant and hearts like, I gotta do my talent, but the water glasses got drank, so then she has to do the sing scene thing she gets she kicks Benjamin Bratt's ass on stage, very satisfying.

It's really cool. Yeah, and then she makes it into the top five and everything's exciting trigged, but we are still drilled. And then Mr Rhode Island wins, but hearts like she figures out that it's the crown that's the bomb, so she like flings herself at her and you know, rips off the crown. There's a whole scuffle. The chat is like the show must go on keeps singing its line roots where he's just saying the lyrics to the

song five seconds after they've been song is great. It's also one of those classic scenes of like it's taking forever to detonate a bomb for no reason, like her Turtle Son's like I'm gonna do it. It's like normally fingers slipped, and then it falls down stair by stair, and then finally Candice Burgend is like, I'm gonna blow

up Miss Rhode Island's head, but she fails. She fells heart, saves the day, and then at the end she gets voted believe it or not, Miss Congeniality, it's nice, which means that you didn't win, but you're nice, yeah, which is something that is achievable for people. Yes, Okay, so that's the movie. Good Night, No, I'm kidding. Um, So where should we start. Let's start with the relationship because that is like one of the things I don't like about the movie that I just really want to knock off.

At the top, se can just sing this movie's praises, but the relationship in this movie sucks. Yeah, it's a bummer. Benjamin Bratt's face and physique are wasted in this movie. But it's because and it's weird because it's like I think the movie sort of like it. It tries to paint them as equals, but in ways that just demonstrate

their imbalance in the workplace even more. Where at the beginning, especially, he's treating her like one of the guys, and he's like, oh, we like you know, we like funk with each other. We insult each other, but all of his insults are

very pointedly misogynist about her body. He slaps her ass at one point, he makes comments about how he doesn't find her attractive all the time, and then the whole journey of this relationship is like he respects her after she gets a makeover and is just as good at her job as she ever was and is the same person, but now she has a hair straightener and he's in love. I hate it. Some of my favorite lines from him are,

by the way, you look like hell really cute. I think McDonald, their male boss, is more feminine than you. I'd rather kiss him, so you know, he's a feminist icon to punch. It's a homophobic joke and a misogynist joke. Mr Bratt right, he is like he's sexist, he's homophobic. It's just like toxic masculinity all over the place. But he's the love interest l O L. It's weird. Yeah, and it's it's weird because it's like you do, I mean, especially the nice younger. I had like a deep affection

for that character. But it's because there you can tell the reason she likes him. But her character, who were sort of led to believe calls people out, doesn't really call him out to the extent that he deserves to be called out right, because she calls out Michael Caine's character a lot. She's always like everyone, Yeah, she calls out these little boys at the beginning almost for yeah. So so that whole character in that relationship, I mean, it's like it's a movie in two thousand. There's gonna

be uh romance shoehorned in. But it's like there there were enough good elements of his character that it could have been a more level, fair relationship and there didn't need to be so many cast off Like most of the stuff in this movie that sucks is pretty fixable of Like, it's a lot of just cast off misogynists and homophobic jokes that don't need to be there. They don't really add anything, and by like, just don't do that.

And it's weird because so this movie was written by two women and a guy, Katie Ford and Karen Lucas and Mark Lawrence. I was trying to do research on each of them. Couldn't find a ton on karenen Lucas. But Katie Ford is a queer woman, so you would think that there wouldn't be quite so much kind of

casual homophobia in it. But then it was also two thousand so and the other end of that is there's more queer characters in this movie than in most movies of that time and still now where there's I mean at least two characters that have direct impact on the plot that identify as queer. And it's not like coding and all the bullshit were used to where Michael Caine's character identifies as queer. Wait see, I found he's like

wex your pubes. It's all a character. I found him to be more coded that way than identifiably that way. But I might have missed something. Well. He implies several times that he's in relationships with men and and at one point plays it off as a homophobic joke where he's talking to someone he knows and he says about Benjamin Bratt's character like he he's with me, and she's like, oh, so to me that it's not an explicit statement, but

that I don't know. That went a step further than coding to me, because usually like a coded character in my head is like playing to every trope and not acknowledging anything outside of a trope where he is acknowledging he is attracted to men and he's been in relationships with men. I feel like it's alluded to several times where that was just my read of it. There's a moment where he grasps Benjamin Bratt's shoulder and then he's like, what a pity that he can't that he can't stay

and stop with that impression. And then at the end of the movie, Miss New York comes out to the world on stage and says that it's like, what is the line she has? Oh, it's she says, it's great, Oh, hang on, I got it here, and her girlfriend's in the crowd and she's like yes, and then we're like love winds and then she's dragged off stage. So it's like, okay, so it's I just want to let all the lesbians out there. No. If I can make it into the

top ten, so can you. And then she's like love you, Tina or something Tina's like, and then we're like yeah. But then immediately after that they cut to the TV station. It's weird. It's like you get a good moment and then it's sort of cast off in the next moment where the TV people are like, can we even say lesbian on television? And it's like no, no, no, right,

I don't know. Like that mostly worked for me because so like Miss New York says says that, and then like Gracie collapse and woos to show her support, and then William Shatner is like, stay tuned for our final five lesbians contestants. And then after that the guy behind the scenes is like can we even say And then there's a woman who's like, you got a problem with that?

So to me, like the men are made to look like bumbling idiots who like can't hang, and then the women in that scene are all like kind of challenging the status quo. Well, I would even say that it's restricted to gender. I just think that in that scene, everyone whose side we're firmly on, which includes Victor, are pro miss New York basically coming out to the world on live TV, and so everyone whose corner we're in

is cool with it and not shamy. And yeah, the guy who's like like he's made to look that way, the movie wants you to see him that way. So yeah, so I was okay with that. What didn't work for me so well was the scene where Victor tells, like a backstage hand, he's like, Benjamin Brett's is with me, and then he's like, I'm not with him with him because he is wildly insecure about his sexuality and he

does not like gay people. But again, he is poised as the love interest in standard book kisses a homophobe. At the end of the movie, Sandy, there are still there are problems, and he was also in The blind Side, so she's got certainly some problematic things of her catalog. The way this movie handles queerness is kind of all over the place. But I don't know if for two thousand it acknowledges queerness in the way that most mainstream

movies wouldn't give it. That. Yeah, So back to the conversation about the Benjamin Bratt character and he is in a pool and that's good. Uh, well, you see his nipples. That's great. Yeah, there's that whole scene where their heart and Matthews are wrestling. Whenever he's trying to convince her to like take this undercover role, there's moments where like she he's like, just do a few like button shipping exercises, tighten ess, slap or in the ass. He slaps her

in the ass again. At the end of the scene. There's a moment where like she has his head right in her crotch and they're like doing this whole thing. So it's like, oh, I wonder if these characters have sexual tension, that that is a thing that whenever, like a woman is fighting a man in a movie, I feel like it always comes down to the head between the legs and it becomes this like sexual subtext of I know that's a legitimate move you can do, but

must we every single time? And must we deliver a cute, little punchy line while we do it, like squeeze head of like you I was gonna say, you're cute, but whatever equip not you're cute that's not equip that's just a feeling. I feel like I feel like Black Widow does it all the time, and like the Avengers movies. It happens in the Jumanji Welcome to the Jungle Ever heard of it? Is there a fandom for that feeling,

doesn't it? It's the guy who can find the nipple? Basically, any any movie where there is a like female action star, you can better believe that she is wrapping her pussy around his face and using it to slam him into the ground. He's like, Wow, she's powerful, and you're just like ick, yeah, that's gross. And of course that moment happens a lot, and usually in narratives where a woman who is like unusually strong or good at fighting is forced to prove that over and over and over, which

this movie does a few times. Hey, i think it's about time for us to just take a little quick break. I'm tired. I'm tired news the way okay, transition a little bit to the way Gracie is treated by her co workers again is all over the place where they definitely know she's good and they do seem to respect her, and like the opening sequence in Like the Present day is Gracie makes a call during they're trying to catch

some Russian guys. There's a briefcase, it's all very vague, but Gracie makes a call where she saves him for choking to death, and that choice results in one of her co workers getting shot. So that I thought was like a cool scene and a good example of like watching a female protagonist be flawed and funk up but in a way that isn't pointed or makes her seem incompetent, and the way she's treated like she's punished for it

because she fucked up, but it's not. The subtext isn't like you're stupid or you don't know what you're doing. It's like you made a choice and it was the wrong choice for not following orders, which is a legitimate reason to get in trouble, especially when like people's lives around the line. I want a whole movie about Gracie and her boss. I really like that they got a fun dynamic. And also in that scene, she saves herself.

So she gets like kind of held hostage by one of the bad guys and he's holding a knife to her, but she does the sing thing, so she does that and she saves herself. But that, yeah, so she gets in trouble, so she does kind of have to like, well, I'd say that, like, at no point does she have to like prove her competency at any point to the

other characters. It's weird. It's like but smaller stuff though, where it's and she she I guess makes this point to Benjamin Bratt at one point of like, she's ultimately chosen for that assignment because she looks conventionally attractive in a bathing suit. And even though Benjamin Bratt later is like, no, it's not, it is like that is the clearly implied reason that she's chosen. It's like she's competent, but it doesn't hurt to look great in a bathing suit on

top of being a you know, badass fighter. So that is sinister. And then in the next scene, just going back to that original, so Gracie is punished by her boss kind of rightfully, so she fox up, and then Benjamin Bratt's character is put in charge of the beauty pageant thing, and then there's a whole scene where he is incompetent because he's like, oh, so what are we

doing here? And then Gracie will make a suggestion He's like, we're going to do that, and then she makes another He's like, we're going to do that as well, where she is doing the job for him and it's pretty clearly spelled out, but then that kind of goes away as it goes on, and later he's like, I'm about the job. I was like, really, because we doesn't seem like you're very good at it. I read that scene as because it's a room full of men and they know that they have to work on this pageant thing,

so they're like, oh, no, a thing that women do. Ah, and they like just completely forget how to do their job. And then like Heart comes in with like the oh she's a girl, but she's like, yeah, called the pageant and then called the network, set up meetings with them, like call the San Antonio people, let's get jurisdiction there, like all this like common sense stuff that they shouldn't to do, but they're just like girls stuff. Yeah, they lose their ship and then we get to the computer

scene click click. There are many scenes of like male gaze throughout the movie Freaky, like Y two K male gaze where it's like not just male gaze, but male gaze via a Windows computer, which just seems so much worse now. Right. So the first one is when they're all crowded around and then they like make a game of it, so're like, okay, female agents under the age of thirty five who aren't pregnant as hell, who do we got? And then they're just like they're making women's

bodies a spectacle. They have like popcorn. They have this weird software that can put one bathing suit on anyone, which is not real, but the photoshops are convincing, um, but it is that it's just like a whole scene where they go through women they don't know and they're like or like, and then they start putting bathing suits on man and then that's played as a joke, which is also just like how embarrassing if if a man presents as feminine at all exactly, And then and then

they get to Gracie and they're like, also, why would the FBI know what she looks like naked? That's what that software implies, is like, we have your nudes and we will use them because they could just have because all of a sudden, they just have a picture of her from multiple angles in a bathing suit. You're just like, that's not out the government works. Maybe we'll listen to this in a year and be like, that is how the governors. But as far as I know, they don't

have nudes from every angle in the year two thousand. No, No, I don't know. Ask Massage. Maybe he knows. So that's the first very male gaze you've seen where yeah, it's either like uggling women's bodies who they find attractive, or it's any woman who's not like conventionally beautiful by Western standards, or like there's like an age element too. If a woman's over a certain age, they get a grown and yeah,

it's bad. So the second male gaze moment is heart is like equipped with like a little camera and she's being introduced to the other contestants and all the like FBI men are seeing this. They're like a girl, what's legs losing their ship? And that comes back a bunch of time. I mean that comes back when they're spending time together alone and having conversations. That happens whenever she's in a dressing room or backstage. You just cut to Benjamin Bratt and a bunch of men who have recently

gotten their SAG cards. It's just like panting frantically and you're just like, oh great, they're they're federal agents and we trust them. Um yeah, but they're yeah, they're just like completely objectifying and like oggling over every woman they see.

And then my my last point about that is that a demonstration that Benjamin Brott's character has grown is that like sometimes like two thirds into the movie, when they're doing that at the screen he steps in front of when they're about to look at Gracie's boobs, and he's like, guys, no, he comes in on his fucking horses. Actually, we shouldn't do this because I decided I respected my colleagues since she became hot. You're like, you don't get a trophy

for that. You're all bad. Yeah. Another thing I wanted to talk about is how Gracie Hart does not like other women at first at first, which I like, I understand why the movie made this choice there put it's like fish out of water scenario. It's like, Okay, who best would be the person to put into this like beauty pageant role? Shure, it's going to be like a woman who's rough around the edges, who doesn't like to be around other women and stuff like that, but like

the way she treats and talks to other women. In the beginning of the movie, Shenamin Bread's on a date with someone and Heart is very patronizing to her, and we get her name, so, like her name is Beth, and she's like, I'd love to hear yeah, because she's writing a paper on like criminal justice, and she's like, I'd love to hear a woman's opinion, and Heart is like, get out of my face, you idiot, you young idiot. And uh, it's not a great pass. It's not a

good pass, but it is a pass. It's it's interesting. I mean, you can see that a lot of I think what would have been helpful is under having some context for why Grace he feels that way, because the only thing we know about her other than what we see unfold in real time is that scene at the very beginning of her when she was a little kid, and that's kind of the only context we have for who she is and why she is the person she

has later on. Right, So if we had I agree that that is like it's a choice that the writers have to make for the story to work and for like the growth to seem effective. But it wouldn't have hurt to have a little bit of background on Gracie and like what makes her inclined to be like a tomboy, or like why is she more comfortable around men than she is around women, Because that's like a character choice you can make if you explain why that is. I

don't know. I also think there are other ways to make her be a fish out of water without making her actively hate every other woman she's ever talked to, because like their moments where she's like, I'm not going to parade around in a swimsuit like some airhead bimbo that goes by the name of Gracie Lou free Bush, which is how she gives them, and we love it there. I don't know. I mean, I'm I'm very attached to this movie, and I will continue to make excuses for it. Uh,

but she gets there. I don't know. I feel that this movie does a pretty good job of showing different, at least two different versions of femininity and what a woman can be, and then showing a version of femininity that's very commonly condescended to and uh, you know is male gayzey. But in getting to know individuals, like she makes friends and sees value and like learns how to interact with other women and have friendships in that at the end the speech, and it's great. I don't know.

I I like her character's growth. I think it's very it makes me cry. It's a it's a it's a beautiful character arc. But yeah, I guess I would just argue that there are other ways that that could have been handled where she isn't so antagonistic to women. Again, I understan when the choice was made narratively, but it just means there's another example of a woman hating other women or women not getting along. But the nice thing is that that is overcome by the end of the movie,

right it is. I don't know. I feel like sometimes in like media stuff, it can be valuable to see a very common trope and then have it be commented upon or resolved. That worked for me. But speaking of women on women violence, let's talk about Candy doing this. Candy is a deep well of trauma and she's what isn't she funked up about? There's first of all, masterful before the pants suits on this character iconic, iconic. She There is a Bettel passing scene where Canada's Burger threatens

to kill Sandra b it is. It's great, one of my favorite passes of the entire podcast. She was like, this is my thing and if you suck it up, I will murder you with my hands. And we've graduated from the she's all that you should kill yourself to this congeniality I will kill you. Let's get rid of the middleman. I will kill you makes so much more active. Yes, yes, yes, yes, um.

The main thing I wanted to say about her as the female villain is that I feel like female villains and I know they're exceptions to this role, but I feel like it's more common that female villains are there in the story when the protagonist is also a woman, as if to say, oh, a woman couldn't defeat a male hero, but if she's matched up, right, But if she's set up against a woman, then we as the audience have an easier time believing that she could pose

a threat to the female hero. That's really I've never thought of that, but that I mean, if you just do a cursory review of princess movies, versus Yep, I'm convinced we've got half of an example, and yeah, filling the rest of the blanks. She's right, No, that's a

great point. And and there's that I don't know. The her character is challenging because you are you're given more context for her character than you are given for most people in the entire movie where you find out that she was the runner up twenty five years ago, and it's still very mad about it, to the point where she's sabotaging, she wants to blow up someone's head a quarter century later about it. The bitterness attributed to her character,

I feel like, is almost speaking to your point. A little bit is something commonly attributed to older female characters, where in a movie with like a younger protagonist, if they are older women around them, they either serve as like a mother a nurturing role, or if they're the villain, they're bitter about something that happened when they were younger, and they take out that bitterness by punishing or for instance, blowing the head up of someone younger than which is

frustrated because it's like having Candice Bergen's character in this movie is amazing and it kind of it's it's kind of a waste in some ways, and a lazy writing choice to make like an age is like, oh, she's bitter because she's not, you know, a beautiful twenty five year old anymore, and because that's just such a common thing attributed to older female characters ever, as they're just pissed that they're not so funk that her sound looks like a turtle. Also, but yeah, I don't know, I

liked I liked her. I liked that at least you she's not based. I'm just holding this nipple and I wanted to feel I'm gonna slither it down my throat. Okay, um, I like that. At least the writers gave enough consideration to that character to give her a backstory, because otherwise it would just be like a woman is crazy for no reason. So at least we get context. But the context is kind of lazy writing as well. So he way to like fake a bunch of serial killer notes,

so skills. She also appears to be like good at her job of being in charge of the pageant. It seems very successful, and but also she wants to blow people up and that's bad and so it's hard Michael Caine also has a backstory where he I mean, it's sort of he's just like, I won't the champion, Like he's treating her kind of like Sea Biscuit. But also also we're like rooting for him. I don't know, right,

can we? So let's talk about the makeover the make right, So Vick Michael Caine takes one look at Heart, knowing that he's going to have to make her over, but he doesn't. He's like, if you're crazy, Heart, I quit right here and now. Similar thing happens in Princess Diaries, like it's more fun the way it offense and Princess Diaries. If we've got to have a makeover scene for me, I go Princess Diaries every time. It's frustrating. Okay, this is something that is perhaps deeply rooted in my psyche.

Every time I see the reveal on the makeover scene, I still am like, Wow, she's so pretty, and then I feel horrible about myself. But the reveal shot is it bangs. I don't know, like it's it's it's weird. It's like, I guess that's just like the core of our podcast too. It's just like, oh, I that I feel this way, but at least I understand why. But that reveal shot to Mustang Sally, Holy shit, it's very rewarding.

But also I know, I know it. For this movie, the makeover is justified based on the context of the story, right, Although could you argue why do beauty pageants exist in the first place and why is the expectation for women to be so beautiful? But that's not the question this movie is asking, right. Yeah, so at least she's getting a makeover to be able to participate in a beauty pageant. Sorry scholarship pro scholarship, as we say sorry, So I

don't know. It's kind of a cut and dry standard makeover sne where she has a middle part and then she doesn't. She's she's been Sandra Book the whole time. The reason she has the makeover is I would argue that she's it's like one of those not like the other girls women where you know, she choose with her mouth open, she doesn't care about her hair, she doesn't you know, she's clumsy. She wears gender neutral clothing most

of the time. Here's where we start to pull from the Liz Lemon Book of Feminism that I find very troubling of like, let's present what no one can deny is a very conventionally attractive woman and just call her ugly over and over and just hope we can gaslight our own audience into being like, yeah, Tina Fey looks like shit and like just by I don't know that's something this movie does that on one hand, you never see women eat food in movies, and that is something

that it's like, at least we see her eating like a normal person would, but she's dipping steak into spaghetti. I wouldn't. Well, I guess this comes down to a lifestyle, not just shame that I've dipped things and other things

that shouldn't have been dipped in. Perhaps I've I've dipped many things same, but I'll to say it's it's weird because it's like you do get to see someone eat like a human being, and when food is taken from her and beauty pattern food is given to her, the movie is commenting on it and like, this is fucked up. It doesn't to me suggest and this is what women should do. Like it. She's upset about it, she's annoyed with it, she doesn't want to do it. But on

the other hand, it's like she's Sandra Bullock. Like it's annoying and frustrating in movies to try to gasolate your audience at the top of a movie and be like, she looks horrible and look, she's such a slob. She's called a slob over and over and over, and it's like, no, she's Sandra Bullock just like every time. It's like, you can't just give Tina Fee a cheese stick and call it a day. You can't like it's that is just a half hearted attempt at I don't know, I don't

like it. Side side Caitlin, Yeah, I'm tired. Can we take a break, Let's just take a quick break. Yeah. I think the makeover is justified narratively, unlike it is in other movies. It's not just like, well, men don't enjoy you, so but all the fix it. But again

I have to go. But and maybe this is, you know, opening up the conversation to beauty pageants and because it is the makeup over justified whenever we consider I don't know where I land on this because on one hand, I'm like, your body, your choice, if you want to participate in a beauty pageant like you do you, but also because women have historically only been valued for their appearance, and then things like you know America and other beauty

pageants just reinforce that and have historically been very racist, which we can also touch on. But because like there's no Mr America or is there. I don't know, but I don't think so, not that we know of there. Yeah,

that's that's a weird I don't know, that's tricky. I've I would feel weird coming down on either side of that argument, because it's like, if it's what you want to do and you feel good and empowered and comfortable with everything that's happening, great, but there are, like you were saying, like very clear examples of those being harmful to the women participating in them and certainly to like young women and like young boys, seeing that this is

how we present women and this is what you're supposed to look like, slash, this is what you're supposed to be attracted to. So a lot just reinforces that like standard of beauty that we need to dismantle, am I right?

But also like a piece so there's sort of you know, but I mean Grazie Heart does have a lot of opinions on beauty pageants, which she comes around on by the end, but in the beginning she's like, it's like feminism never happened, Like any woman that would want to participate in a beauty pageant is catering to a misogynistic

neanderthal mentality. I wish she like at the end of the movie was like, well, there's arguments to be made either way, but she's like, pageants are awesome, and you're like, oh, okay, I don't know, right, And then like Benjamin Brott over here is like, hey, you can get scholarship money, you can see the world. He's very pro pageant, so wonder why, but also like, great, if you can get scholarships, why do you need to prove that you look fuckable in

a bathing suit too? You know, the classic question again, I don't know. I don't know, but the way the story explores that, although I do wish that she didn't just the movie's conclusion isn't like pageants good, keep them going, Like yeah, that seems kind of like a Kappa, but we you know, the story takes extra care to like get to know at least five of the contestants and see how they interact with each other and learn at

least a little bit about each of them. You learn most about Rhode Island, but there's I'm trying to remember the states New York, California, Texas. Those are you think the four main and plus Rhode Island and then Gracie's New Jersey. But like, you see them interact and they're very often not talking about men. They're talking about their backgrounds. They're talking about what they're like, plans or strategies are in the competition. They give each other advice, they exchange

gossip while drunk and covered in paint. They do a lot of stuff. And so by the end, when like the characters we know make the top ten, you're happy for them, which seems like kind of hard to do and a story with so many different characters, I appreciated that they went out of the way to show that they were people that wanted to be there and felt empowered by being there. Is that a weird cop out in its way? Probably, But also we get to know them and that's nice. Yeah, And the story could have

easily not gone in that direction. It could have been, like I could have been bitches. Yeah, and rather than focusing on the like friendship that happens among them, it's more focused on the like romantic relationship with which, by the way, I also I just want to add how Benjamin Bratt's character asks out Gracie because he says something like, hey, before we get back to New Jersey, you get all ugly again. Do you want to go out to dinner? And then if we fuck after that's cool. Just still

be hot to me, like you're just like yikes. And then then she's like yes, and then it's an early interaction. It's not good right this movie. I don't know. I love I love it. And then there's those parts. It's a two other there's a there's some other parts. Uh problematic thing. Sorry. There's a scene at the very beginning whenever Heart is like in that restaurant. She's got like the book with the camera in it, and she's like trying to survey, like the people the woman with two asses.

A woman gets fat shamed. Uh. There's jokes that make light of being deaf and being a mute. There's jokes that make light of eating disorders. Uhh Yeah. There's a very pointed comment from Gracie to Rhode Island, her best friend at there, and she's allegedly shalling up to make her feel better and brings pizza and beer, and then you know, all the women are like, you can't, we don't eat that, and Gracey says something you canto like

who cares? Rodel was just going to throw it up anyways, which is outting her eating disorder, and it's just like, oh God, we're supposed to like the protagonists, like what the funk are you doing there? And in making light of like what is a serious issue inside of that community and for women in general. So yeah, funk. That does not age well that joke. Nor does There's a reference to Rainman, and then she like makes fun of

people with developmental disabilities. Weird Rainman reference, and that's got Jurassic Park reference, so I guess that can stay whatever. I like, there's a lot of it is. It's all this little stuff that it's like, we don't lose anything from the meaning of this movie by losing these like shitty little interactions that could be replaced with other stuff. Right.

There's another one where the reason that she's able to even enter into the contest because miss New Jersey was discovered as working at porn films, So it's like shaming people who work in the sex industry or working porn, so which a lot of been again leverage to be a criticism of the beauty pageant, but it isn't. It's right for a joke. So it's a lot of like early two thousand's era like problematic jokes that they weren't thinking of. But we as sophisticated eighteen years later audiences,

we have never made a mistake or been wrong. Yeah. No, I agree that that was another moment that you're just like Jesus Christ. That's uh from people that were supposed to like I love Rhode Island, and I love that there's there's just like a range of different types of women where the you know, Gracie's assumption at the beginning is like every woman who participates in a beauty pageant is a specific way, and then we see that there's

a lot of different types of people. Well, I argue that it's sort of like half lazily written to state that they're coming from, Yeah, the Texas girls like the Alamo, You're like, all right, New York talks about a bagel like you're just like, Okay, I guess there's a teacerent amount of diversity among that like group though, So yeah, so I mean there there is diversity in in the

group of women we get to know. Um, it seems like the pageant majority, but the women we get to know the best are still It wasn't yes because Gracie and Rhode Island, but God love Rhode Island. That I was just gonna ask, what's your favorite date? What's your perfect day? She's such a dumbass. It's so sweet, but but like in a in a very endearing I love her. Yeah, she's she should be Miss Congeniality. Well she's misses. My

head didn't blow up, so she should be thrilled. Can we talk about the scene where Miss Rhode Island talks about her college professor attacking her. Yes, because can and we will. So this is when Heart is coaxing information out of let's not let her get up the hook. She's actively trying to get people drunk for information. That's very much her intention is Like, she doesn't quite rufy her colleagues, but she is not as drunk as everyone else on purpose. She also just comes out and says, hey,

have you ever committed a crime? Who was credited? Her job? Who was she? Kiano Reeves and point Break come on, Keiana. Point Break literally goes into a Burger joints like I'm in the FBI. This is my name, Like it's like compulsive. He can't help it. So she's like, hey, is anything like have you ever done anything bad? And then Cheryl ms Rhode Island talks about how her college professor attacked her,

and then Heart says, did you report him? And she said no, I never told anyone before, but this kind of thing happens all the time. And then Heart says, no, it doesn't, and then we are like, yes, it does. And then she talks about how there's like all these maneuvers that she could show you. She's of course talking about sing sing. We got a lot of foreshadowing for

saying until it happens. That interaction is interesting where it gets like percent of the way there for me, where in my head Gracie's reaction to Cheryl telling her that makes sense for that character because Gracie has been fighting people her whole life, so in her head that doesn't happen because she is tough and aggressive and fights people off. There should have been something done inside of that same scene to like you're saying to be like, no, that

does happen. And Gracie, as much as she is doing a good thing in theory by teaching Cheryl how to defend herself, is also like this happens all the time, like putting the onus and the responsibility on the woman

to defend herself because there's no way around it. You're gonna get attacked, so you have to learn how to defend yourself, versus acknowledging that this shouldn't be happening, Like That's all that would have taken for me for that scene to work, is like I'm sorry that happened to you, and acknowledging that that's a common thing, and then show Cheryl how to kick someone's ask great, I shouldn't have to teach you this. We should teach men not to attack.

But here's saying, but in order to survive the world as it's been set up so far, break someone's nose, like fair, what do you have anything else? Most of my stuff? I think in general, I really like Gracie. I think that where her character lands is death. Definitely frustrating where we are to assume she's keeping the makeover, she's going to you know, take that change on permanently. It's not until she gets her makeover that she's able to find romantic love or has interest in romantic love

that we know of. And she ends in kind of like a little bit too propageant, a little uncritical of like, yeah, so no one got blown up, so this system is doing good. And then the last interaction between Gracie and Miss morning Side was I don't know, like in theory, that's a cathartic moment for Gracie because she gets to clap back at Candice Bergen because Candasburgen says yeah, yeah, and then Sandy says yes, and we're like, oh a callback.

But Cannisburgen is chaotic evil in this that character didn't have to just be like pure evil. Like again, just getting back to what we talked about of how those characters are written. Is sort of satisfying to see her sent off to jail, but it's also cheap to put women against each other and then be like and now you go to prison, you're bad. And it's not like the system she was working with and was always bad, whatever, it's a perfect movie. A couple of other things I

wanted to touch on. One of those more problematic components of the movie is the constant idea that's presented that people who identify as women need to be presenting as more feminine, like just a constant thing. Like Michael Caine's character says like, I've I've taken a woman without a discernible trace of estrogen and turned her into a lady. Benjamin Bratt's like always nagging her, being like, you look like ship until you looked hot with that makeover, and

now I love you. Yeah, I mean, well that that's kind of I feel like the fact that she decides to keep the makeover kind of says it all in terms of where the movie stands on that, and that's that's a bad Just make us wash her hair and not straighten it, and then it's like, weirdly that would be progress. That's fucked. Yeah, I think that's those are

the main points that I had. Yeah, should we take any see if anyone has any questions thoughts that we didn't, Yeah, Oh, the question you asked, So the question was which actor should have been placed with Alfred Molina Okay, well, we've got a lot of options. Do I think he could have replaced the Chat I do. Do I think he could have replaced Michael Caine? I do, but not quite. Do I feel like he should have replaced Benjamin Bratt Absolutely.

I think if Alfred Molina is playing the Benjamin Bratt character, they have to rewrite it right because they're like, people are going to believe bad things coming out of Alfred Blina's math. He is a sweet teddy bear who respects women, and he's going to be doc Cock one day. We can't disrespect him like this. I think he would he should replace Benjamin Bratt. Final answer any other questions or thoughts, Alright, you gotta, we gotta. They're like leave retired. Um, it

doesn't pass the Bectel test. It does a lot. There's almost an entire scene that passes the Actel test from what I could whenever all the contestants are being introduced to each other when yes, and then there's also almost a whole scene between Cheryl and Gracie that you get significantly in there before before a man is brought up, which is cool, and I think it's like a testament again to like the story having a vested interest in

you getting to know who these women are, which is great. Yeah. Um. And then there's of course the scene where Kathy morning Side says, if you get in my way, I will kill you kens Bergen who she is, given it her all, I love it. I would pay her to threaten me. And then yeah, I think there's a couple others here, and there's I mean, there's there's a bunch. Usually if there's a scene with contestants, it passes at least once inside of your average scene. If it's a scene with

Gracie and miss morning Side, usually it passes. It takes a while because it takes it just takes Gracie a while to get to the pageant. But once we get there, it's relatively smooth sailing. If we're getting into it. Are they usually talking about traditionally feminine things such as beauty pageants, makeup? And yes, but you know the test is flawed. Also, there's the whenever Benjamin Bratt's character is like, hey, we suspect miss Rhode Island is a terrorist, go talk to

her and get some information out of her. She's like, wait, you want me to talk to And they're like yeah, and she's like, what do I talk about? And they're like leg waxings, fake orgasms, the inability of men to commit, which is mostly what I talk about. It's like where is the lie? So that was a funny joke, some fun fun commentary, but like it shows that, like she does not even understand the concept of a woman talking to another woman. They play up the tomboy aspect to

so much. She's like, do you want me to beat it out of her? Like what? We have seen her kick Benjamin Brad's ass multiple times at that point, so it does seem to be their friendship dynamic. Yeah, yeah, she's just rowdy. Yeah. Shall we rate the movie? Yeah on our five nipple scale? Yeah, Okay, what do you think I would say? I think I'm going to give

it a three. Okay, you can go higher if you want, But I feel I think there's there's too many kind of problematic things that don't ange well for me to go higher. But because it's Gracie Hart who is driving the narrative, she I don't think at any point has to be saved by a man. She's always saving herself. She's always advocating for herself and standing up for herself, defending herself. Um oh, one thing we didn't say is that she is the only one who doesn't give up

on the mission. All the men quit yah, and she stays. Right, it's her hunch that like keeps her in the game. And she's right. She's really good at her job. She's like, hey, everyone, I'm really good at like decoding stuff. She's basically a hacker. She's hacking, so I'm biased sorts. So yeah, she's the one who does everything. She staves the day at the end. But as we discuss, there's you know, problematic things casual

home phobia. The romance thing is big where we're like, yeah, we're supposed to root for her to end up with this guy who thinks she's ugly as hell until she gets a very painful procedure done. He's constantly nagging her, and he also like it's like I need to watch these things happen to you. Like he's there for her various waxing. It's like, leave. I think he took the

day off to do that. You there could have been an opportunity to comment more on like the standards of beauty that society has decided or a thing, but it kind of misses out on some of that. It does provide some commentary, but I think it misses on other

opportunities and definitely doesn't go all the way. Yeah, So I'm gonna let land in the three and I'm gonna give one to Gracie Hart, I'm going to give one to Candice, and i will give my final nipple to the bare nipple that we do see of Benjamin Bratt's I am going to go three and they have. Uh maybe three quarters four feels wrong for some reasons, but as close to a four as I can get without it be three and quarters. Three and three quarters works

for me. Like you were saying, there are a lot of missed opportunities and just kind of general lazy y two K writing on the only woman we see who's over the age of forty is written to be very bitter and villainous. There was an opportunity to incorporate women of color in a more meaningful way, of like, even though it is a diverse group of women, we get to know, the three primary women we see and get

to know well are still white ladies. But in general, I mean, I think it does well in terms of it would have been very easy, like we were saying earlier, to make the stickle at the beauty pageant that the women were mean. And you know, that is more Gracie's obstacle to overcome. You know, she dislikes women, and she's right to at least the obstacle is that she's wrong

and she cares about these women. And and you know at the end of the movie where she's late because she's in the FBI, etcetera, and they help her with her makeup and they get her ready, and that's like a nice moment, and I just choked up. Anyways, I love this movie. I think it's and and and it

taught me how to sing. And Gracie is a I think, a great effective character whose arc works, although I wish she didn't end on the side of like and now I learned that beauty pageants are awesome and being hot is cool. By oh and now I'm armed and fabulous. So I'm gonna give it three and three quarters, okay to to Gracie, one to New York and then the remainder to Tina, her girlfriend. Yeah, the sequel we're all waiting for. Also, Sandra Bullock comedic Powerhouse. The pratt falls

in this movie, the brat falls. They Okay, I deserved there. She prat falls during a dramatic scene. It's great. She's at the beginning where she's like upset and at her apartment she's like the punchy bag. I got so much rage. But she's still prat falls because she's Sandra Bullock and she's committed to who she is. I want Sandra Bullock and Hillary Duff to prat fall off. Who is the true master? Yeah, well I think I think that's our show. Yeah,

thank you so much for so much for coming. Thanks to Emissaries, huge, thank you Laura, Sam and Alias for having us here at Emissary Listeners. If you're ever in DC, you come check this place out. Is this really cool? Like it's a cafe, it's a bar, it's everything. It's there's just good for nipples. See what happens delicious jello nipples. I'm drunk. There's too many of these nimes. Thanks again to Emissary and everyone here, and thanks to you audience

for coming. Enjoying the rest to night. That's mere