Hello Bechdel Cast listeners.
We we we wu. This is future Jamie and Caitlin recording this a week after we recorded this original episode. With two quick notes at the top.
The first thing we want to do is plug the tour that we've got coming up. You've probably already heard about it, but in case you haven't, we are doing several live shows in early February. We will be in San Francisco, Sacramento, Dallas, Austin, and San Diego in that order. The dates range from February first to February tenth. You can get more information all the details all the dates as well as tickets if you go to link tree slash Bechdel Cast and we hope to see you there.
We have such fun shows and we're doing Barbie.
It's the Barbie tour we've been in in dating you. But yeah, we're already sold out in Dallas and Sacramento, but stay tuned there may be more shows announced and get your tickets to the other shows. Yeah. The other thing we wanted to touch on really quick. This is a movie that is both about highly sensitive themes and
it just came out. So since we recorded this last week, there has been a fair amount of reaction and the reaction to the reaction, and we've had a week to sit with the movie and we have a few worthings we just wanted to talk about. So if you want to get to future JB and future Caitlin's thoughts on that, and I guess I don't know why I am like high to get that Villi Fulau has now seen and reacted to May December. If you're not aware who that is. This movie I think is pretty clearly based on the
Mary Kay Laturno and Villi Fulou abuse saga of the nineties. Yes, and you know he has since reacted to the movie. There's been reaction to the reaction. We're going to talk about it. And I also feel like I'm losing listeners at the very beginning because the filmmakers insist it's not based on that. Just go to the end of the episode. We also talk about it content with the episode It's a monster. This was a really challenging episode that we
had a great time recording. It's just because this movie, for everything we liked and disliked about it, is really challenging. So for sure, buckle in, we hope you enjoy the discussion and we'll see you in the future. At the end of the episode, yep, enjoy.
On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeffi bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Doo doo, doo doo.
I don't think we have enough hot dogs. And that's when I knew I was going to enjoy whatever happens in the movie May December, which I did not know what it was about or any of the themes. Wow, I know.
But the hot dog representation is very prominent, especially in those first five to ten minutes.
Yeah, and they're making more hot and there are people we're talking about three to a head by my math. Yeah, unless there were some kids, I wasn't saying whatever. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus, And on this podcast, we always have enough hot dogs. Over the years, some have said we have too many. It comes up to abundance, a surplus, if you will, order of hot dogs.
And I'm Caitlin Dorante and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation.
And boy, do we have a conversation have today?
Do we really do? Yes? The Bechdel Test is a media metric originally created by Alison Bechdel along with her friend Liz Wallace. That's why it's often called the Bechdel Wallace Test. Originally appeared in Alison Bechdel's comic Dicks to Watch Out For, and the original intention behind it was just like an examination of do women speak to each other in media? In movies? And how fucked up can it get? This movie seeks to answer that question, it really truly does.
I feel like that's sort of a concerted interest of Todd Haynes's work overall. He wants to see how many fun, dumb ways he could pass the Bechdel test. And I think that that's a really noble pursuit.
It is it is. We're proud of him for it. In any case, there are many different versions of the Bechdel test. The one that we use is as follows, do two characters of a marginalized gender have names, do they speak to each other? Is the conversation about something other than a man and a little caveat that we add? Is is the conversation narratively impactful or is it just kind of like throwaway dialogue that could easily be cut not.
An example of this is we don't have enough hot talks, which I think passes the Bechdel test because just because we don't hear it doesn't mean the hot dogs didn't answer. They said, there is enough hot dogs. Look at us, there's sixty. Did you see how many damn hot dogs? Charles Melton was brilliing there was enough.
Yes.
Anyway, we're talking about May December. I feel like it's been a while since we've talked about a movie like right as it was coming out. But this movie went directly to streaming, so it's allowed we can do it.
It always stresses me out to do a movie that recently has just come out because I'm like, I need more time to mull it over. So I kind of feel that way about this movie.
I mean, there's a ton to go through, and I think like, yeah, this is the kind of movie that, like the conversation will evolve with age two, but there's been I think, a really interesting wide variety of discussion, including the classic like Golden Globes, Like why is this being called a comedy?
Right?
I just am so exhausted with that conversation in general, I don't want to hear it. We have an amazing guest joining us today who bravely requested to cover this movie.
Yes, indeed, she is a comedian. She'll be releasing an hour special later this year, so be on the lookout for that. She's also in the Shutter movie Destroy All Neighbors, which I think at the time of this episode's release will be available on Shutter.
Credible title It's Kiran Deal.
Welcome, Come, Hello, you guys. This is so exciting.
The excitement is all ours.
I love the way you're like. She bravely suggested this movie aka she doesn't watch films anymore and happened to catch this on Netflix because she was like, Oh, I know Natalie Portman, Let's see what this thing is about. And then I thought it was the director of Tar, which I believe. I guess Caitlin, I thought it.
Was Todd to Todd's we were talking about, Yeah, the various interests of the todd O tour community. In the last two years or in the last ten years, men named todd seemed to be obsessed with making movies where the thesis seems to be, you know, women can be sex criminals too, which is true, Which is true, and the Todds feel that they are the one to say it. I also think that these Todds also have a vested
interest in casting Kate Blanchett as a complicated lesbian. Yes, because we have that in Carol and we have that interre are different wow kinds of Kate Blanchett's on display, but Todds nonetheless. Anyway, what's your history with this movie, Caitlyn.
I had just seen it for the first time four or so days ago. I considered not watching it a second time because it is a decidedly uncomfortable movie, but I was like, I gotta do my job. I need to absorb it more fully. So yeah, I've just seen it twice now in the past few days, and I'm excited to talk about it, or I guess, like I know, we kept being like is excited the right word here? But I found it intriguing certainly, And do I ever
want to watch it again? After this, I would say not no, but I think it will elicit an interesting discussion, Jamie, what about you?
This is going to sound excessive. It is completely by coincidence that I have not seen so many award season movies this year, but I've seen May December three times style. I watched it the weekend that it came out, because once I did find out what it was about. This is weirdly it sounds weird to say that this is in my wheelhouse, but because I did the Lolita podcast a couple of years ago, I've seen and analyzed quite
a few movies that have predatory and abusive dynamics. We've talked about it, I think briefly on the show I Can't for the Life and we remember in what episode this would have come up, but how infrequently up until quite recently, like representing an abusive dynamic and child sex abuse that takes place between an adult woman and a young man is like almost never shown or discussed up
until pretty recently. So once I found out what this movie was about, and also the tabloid case that it was loosely based on, which I was brag too young to remember, so I had to kind of go back and do some research on how heavily based it was. But so I was really interested to see this movie.
I feel like it does like with a movie where this is the subject matter, which is I mean, like we'll place the trigger warning in this entire episode for child sex abuse, for emotional abuse, for kind of every sort of toxic relationship dynamic that you could imagine, and also women being assholes, which is my favorite one. But yeah, so I was really interested to see it. I think it's really like well written and well done and well acted. I have some thoughts on it. I'm really excited to
talk about it with y'all. And then I also saw, before I prepared for this episode, I went to a SAG screening where Julianne Moore and Charles Melton and Todd Haynes spoke after the movie, and I thought that the way that they discussed what to me felt like a very clear theme in the movie to be very interesting. So I'm excited to talk about that as well. Yeah, but in general, I think it's at least for how generally poorly this subject matter is handled in media, that
this feels like a stronger attempt. And also it is about other things to it, and I think it's cool how the Natalie Portman character is just sort of this embodiment of how cynically media tends to treat abused people.
True, Kieren, how about you? What's your relationship with this movie?
So? I watched the film and I remember thinking huh, okay. So I didn't really know what it was about, and I was curious, and I watched the whole movie and then I was like, huh interesting. Interesting. Then I went into a kind of wormhole of looking up the source material about the movie, and like an interview that is by Ausie Press on the film that's about twenty minutes long, and it was one of those movies for me which I think is interesting. I was like, huh interesting, Okay, cool.
And then it was like as the evening went on, or as I went out, and then like I was like, why don't I feel good? Why is there like a niggling feeling that like I was weirdly cheated or something like what's bothering me? Is what I was the question I particularly felt what's bothering me? And it took me a while to unravel that. Right around that time is when I got Jamie's email saying what movie would you like to choose? And that's my history with this film.
Well, I'm excited to talk about that feeling that you were feeling in a bit. I mean, I am old enough to remember the Mary Kay Laturno y, like I
remember what the cases. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the movie is loosely based on Mary Kay Laturno, who was arrested in the late nineties on two counts of child rape because she sexually abused a twelve year old boy named and I might get this pronunciation wrong, really Fullau And yeah, I remember when this was in the tabloids and just like the regular news, like this story was covered very heavily in ninety seven when it happened.
What was your memory of like how it was covered.
I was eleven at the time, so I don't think I had quite like a nuanced enough interpretation. I mean, maybe this is just like me retroactively having like my adult brain and being like, yeah, I remember it being super sensationalized, but I don't know if that's actually true.
I think so.
Yeah, I just remember it was covered very heavily, and I do remember a lot of people's responses to it just like people my own age. There were boys that I went to school with who would have been around the same age as the survivor of this abuse, who were like, oh, I wish you know X, Y and Z teacher would do this to me, and like just that was a lot of the response that I was hearing from, like my peers. It was a bizarre time.
Can I say One thing I do find really fascinating is how when you are a kid, especially when you're kind of like going into those teenage years, how much of a grown up you feel like, and how certain that adulthood can feel to you, even to the point where like I've had like a nephew, Like and I remember like taking my nephew around and I was like, we're gonna stay until ten and he's like, no, I'm putting my foot down and I have to like kind of stop and be like, no, wait, I'm the grown up.
I'm the grown up. No, no, no, I pick when we go to sleep, you know what I mean, Like, you're still a kid.
Yeah.
And I think about that with something like the movie Kids, you know, like watching it when I was in college or something and seeing it and kind of being like yeah, this is how kids are versus then seeing it as a grown up and then being like oh no, oh no, oh no, oh no, how terrible. Oh no, that's the differential I hear when you're talking about those boys, which is just a really interesting developmental difference, you know.
For sure.
One of the things I appreciate about this movie is like it attempts to comment on like how media portrayed cases like this through the Natalie Portman character, which we'll like get into, but when she's like being tasked with helping to cast like an underage actor and she's giving notes that they're like, quote unquote not sexy enough, and then when you see the product at the end of the movie, the character has clearly been aged up, which almost always happens in movies of this nature, which in
some ways it's I think a positive thing, certainly for the actor, Like you don't want that to be happening to a twelve year old actor. Again, interesting that Natalie Portman is in this because she's in Leon the professional, which is very much that kind of role. And Yeah, there's so many weird layers to this movie. But then it also as a viewer conditions you to think that a thirteen year old isn't a thirteen year old, a thirteen year old as a sixteen year old, and a
sixteen year old as a twenty two year old. And it's like the way that it's also weird that we have Charles Melton because that's what Riverdale is. You know, he's like thirty years old playing a seventeen year old. Sure, I don't know, like, yeah, this movie touched I guess
I have thoughts on it. But this movie did end up touching on way more than I thought it was going to on, like the way that stories about child sex abuse are covered and then subsequently like portrayed, because Natalie Portman's character really thinks she's doing something when in.
Fact, she is part of the problem, the most evil person alive.
I can't say. The one thing I like about her character is that she openly hates her fiance because it seems like he sucks. Yeah, and so that's the one that's the one place where I'll be like, all right, I see it.
Well, let's get into it with the recap, but before that, let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back, and we're back here. We are Okay, so here is the recap, and we'll place another content warning here for child sex abuse, emotional abuse, rooming, things of that nature.
I just do want to apologize for covering this film one more time. Takes a lot, Karen, So sorry, so sorry.
I mean these things must be discussed.
So, no, it's true, and it's not the first. Virtually, it's not the first. I was it might be the first. I were talking about. Well, it doesn't matter. We've talked about the show before many times.
Yeah.
Also, Kieren, feel free to jump in that. It's a very open summary discussion.
Okay. So we are in Savannah, Georgia, and we meet Gracie played by Julianne Moore. She's prepping for a barbecue with her husband, Joe played by Charles Melton, who is noticeably much younger than Gracie. There's talk of a movie star named Elizabeth Barry who is going to be there doing research for a role, and she'll be shadowing Gracie because Elizabeth is playing Gracie in an upcoming movie.
She keeps calling it art house. It is revealed at the end that it appears to be lifetime, right, She's like, it's an art House movie. I was like, oh no, I don't know. It seems like you're in Burbank, got their ass.
Wow, a lot of Burbank shade. Wasn't expecting Burbank shade.
I mean dunking on the valley.
Wow, just just throw a grenade to start the discussion.
Sure, Burbank hasn't had enough difficulties.
Hasn't Burbank been through enough? Yeah?
Exactly. Wow, I wasn't expecting that from this.
I'm really sorry I didn't sleep last day. All due respect to Burbank. I love Burbank.
I mean they have three AMC's all within a like five hundred foot radius of each other.
Yeah, some of your best friends live in Burbank, y'all. We've heard it all before.
Yeah. I'll never live it down.
Okay. Anyway, So Elizabeth Barry we meet her on screen. She's played by Natalie Portman. She shows up to Gracie's house and gets acquainted with everyone, including Gracie and Joe's teenage kids, twins named Charlie and Mary. Gracie seems apprehensive about this situation where this movie is being made about her. There's mention of, you know, like getting the story right. And making sure Gracie is seen and understood. There's a friend of Gracy's who tells Elizabeth, like, be kind in
your portrayal of Gracy. Also, we see that someone has sent Gracey a box of like literal shit in the mail. So something's going on. We don't quite know what exactly yet, and.
It already like we covered sense a Boulevard yesterday, and it's just like already just a real week of characters that are women in their fifties who have an entire scary bubble to protect them from reality and surrounding them from moment one.
Yes, indeed. So then Elizabeth starts studying Gracy and going through tabloids from the ar early nineties, and we get a glimpse of who Gracie is and what her story is. She had spent time in prison, she gave birth while she was in prison, and there are pictures of her with a very young Joe We're talking like middle school age, so things are starting to come into focus. Elizabeth spends more time with Gracy, asks her and Joe a bunch of questions. We learn that Gracie's eldest son from a
previous marriage. His name's Georgie is the same age as Joe. We also learn that Gracy and Joe met when he came into a pet store where she worked. He was looking for a job, so we're getting more details. And then Elizabeth meets with Gracie's ex husband, Tom and he confirms the full story, which is that Gracie, in the early nineties, when she was thirty six years old, started an affair aka committed child sexual abuse with Joe when
he was thirteen years old. Then Elizabeth continues her research, interviewing people around town, such as the owner of the pet store where Gracie was caught sexually abusing Joe. She talks to Gracie's defense attorney, as well as Gracie's older son, Georgie, who tells Elizabeth that this ordeal ruined his life. There's also ongoing tension between Gracey and Elizabeth because Gracey still just seems uncomfortable about the idea that this movie is
being made. She thinks that like Elizabeth is just kind of like meddling and always around too much, which is true, which is true, she is yes, And then there's a different kind of tension between Elizabeth and Joe. She points out that they're the same age more or less, and it also feels like Elizabeth is trying to flirt with Joe when she goes to visit him at work. Joe tells Elizabeth, people act like I'm some kind of victim. But Gracie and I have been together for twenty four years.
Why would I stay if I wasn't happy? And it's not clear at this point how Elizabeth feels about this whole situation. Then things start to really fall apart. We see Gracie having a meltdown, although the thing that she's crying about is cake, because she's like a professional baker.
Right, But even that is like not exactly true, because he's like another sunset full of our overlap where it's like all of Normandesmond's fan mail is written by her butler, all of Gracie's cakes are purchased by her neighbors just to like quote unquote keep her busy, right, which, yes, very bleak.
Why did they live in such a nice house?
I don't know.
I asked that so many times, and my boyfriend kept making excuse. He's like, maybe she sold her life, right that maybe that's why. I was like, maybe, but that's the only thing because it doesn't it doesn't make it sound like either of them wrote a book. He works as an X ray tech which is a good job, but not like mansion good job. Like I don't understand.
It's a weird thing where it's like a lot of the issues I have with this Like I love that it's two women to strong female leads, whatever, but like a lot of my issues with this movie are actually around class and the treatment of the Charles Melton character.
The lack of development of that little boy for sure, the fact that he is a prop in this movie, the fact that none of the relationship is explored, the fact that you know, you're saying it's an interesting commentary Jamie on like the press and the predatory nature of the media. But Julian Moore is letting these people into her home is the other piece of it. So there's
there's definitely like a duality to that. Also, I just think back to film school or any time that like, not that I went to film school, but what I've heard that people who went to film school have said is like, isn't there always like something about being first person and verite, which is kind of like, you know, understanding this like hology, the depth of the psychology of like verite in terms of putting somebody in the firestorm of the most interesting action, and the immense privilege that
comes with like having this very slow burn, Like you took the least interesting approach on this insane topic, Like you did it through the point of view of a lifetime movie actress walking into the home of like the twenty four year relationship between a teacher and a child, and we follow Natalie fucking Portman.
What are we doing.
We're talking about hot dogs and cake. I'm so sorry.
I know I'm excited to discuss this further when we like get into the full discression.
Sorry, and I interrupted your very thorough breakdown. I mean, you don't even have to watch this film.
I love it, but like these are the things that we do want to talk about, so we'll get to it. But anyway, Gracie's having a breakdown because someone stopped ordering her cakes, and I'm like, sh okay. Anyway, Then there's a scene where Joe also breaks down and cries because he's high on drugs, and we sense that he's like starting to maybe kind of interrogate things from his past.
And Caitlin, he's never done drugs before. Right, he does drugs on his roof with his teenage son, and his teenage son gives him the drug, right, and he's never done them before, indicating some level of like, you know.
Rested development. Perhaps.
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you, Karen that Joe is an underdeveloped character who has been sidelined in these narratives his whole life and is still being sidelined twenty four years later. Like, it's still very clear that Gracie feels like she is the romantic protagonist of this story, and it's like he's sidelined in every single way, including
in this movie. So I feel like I had to like cling to little details like and he's never got to smoke weed because of the way his life has gone. And also just like how tremendously controlling she is. Like one of the first details that I picked up on is like when he enters the scene for the first time, she's like, that's two beers today, and it's like, oh my god.
Let the man live away from you.
Yeah, I can get the creditor.
Let him go anyways, Yes, Then we get a scene with a graduation dinner because their twin kids are about to graduate from high school. And afterwards, Elizabeth talks to Georgie, Gracie's adult son, who tells Elizabeth that Gracie's older brothers sexually abused her starting when she was twelve years old, but that Gracie refuses to talk about it, and she still has a close relationship with these brothers, it seems.
Then Joe gives Elizabeth a ride home and they kiss and they have sex, and she keeps telling him that he's young and he could leave Gracie and start over, and he's like, no, I would destroy her and this is my life we're talking about, and he gets upset and storms out, and then he goes home and has a conversation with Gracie where he's like, hey, like what if I was too young when we got together?
And she shuts it down.
The emotional abuseome manipulation really amps up here, where she's like, you're the one who seduced me and he's like, I was thirteen, and she refuses to listen to him or allow him to express his feelings and she storms off.
And that whole scene is okay, I forget if we've talked about this already, but like that whole scene is pretty directly pulled from an actual interview that Mary Kayla Turno did on television, Like it's horrific hearing it in a private setting, but then when you go and watch the clip, you're like, it's just like so horrible and uncomfortable to watch.
It's the who's the boss line, like like she had pieces so many times in the Yeah, who's in charge? Or who is the boss? Who's the boss? I thought that was the most interesting scene in the film. To me, that felt like the starting point of a film. You know, that felt like like from there, from that jumping off point.
Now let's explore Joe.
Yeah, let's figure out who Joe is and let's figure out what this is. And the fact that that was the culmination of this movie. It took a while to settle in because I do think the directing is good. I think all of I think, especially Natalie and Juliane are both like incredible actors. Like, so kudos to like the makeup scene, which I know you didn't mention, Caitlin, where the two of them are putting on the makeup is like I thought that was very compelling, Like when
Natalie does the monologue. It's very compelling, Like just the performances are really marvelous, so I can understand why they were attracted to the performances. But from a storytelling point of view, I was just like bruh, Like.
Way to focus on the least compelling and least important. I would say part of this narrative, bah rah oh ruh was my answer. Okay, so Gracie kind of is manipulating him, and she shuts this conversation down. Then we cut to Elizabeth rehearsing a monologue where she's impersonating Gracie. You know, she's like preparing for this performance she's going to give in the movie. The words that she's rehearsing are presumably coming from a letter that Gracie had given
to Joe at the start of their relationship. Joe gave this letter to Elizabeth, and now she's like performing this as a monologue, and in the letter, Gracie acknowledges that she crossed a line that what she's doing is illegal and unethical, So she knew at the time what she was doing.
She lies about the whole movie that she like, and that was like an element of the Barry Kayla turta story too. She was like, I was not aware that sexually a music a child was illegal.
I was like, yeah, fuck you. You're like, girl, you're a teacher.
You're a teacher, You're a thirty six year old teacher. You've fucking freak.
Anyways, yes, okay. So then it's the day of the twins graduation and Gracie approaches Elizabeth afterward and she's like, you know that thing that my son Georgie told you about my brothers, that was a lie. Georgie is really insecure, but not me. I'm a very secure person. Parentheses put that in the movie bone Chilling, and we're like, ah. And then we cut to the set of the movie, the biopic that Elizabeth is shooting about this ordeal, and it's fucking creepy and gross the end.
Yeah, and Katelin, can I just add that in that last scene where it was like Julian Moore approaches Natalie Portman, which she's like, my son told you that that and none of that was true. Natalie was like, oh, wait, what you know? Wait he told you that? And then she goes, of course I speak to him every day, and there's kind of like this in the same way that like what's her relationship with it? Like if you're looking for the breadcrumbs of it, it's like, what is that relationship with that son?
Then no idea, Like that scene is consistently baffling to me, where I'm like, there's no reason to believe Gracie. She's complaintly delusional, but also because of what she put her family through, her son is not a reliable narrator either. That like horrible cringey scene where he's like, I will give you information for your.
Be that yeah, if you let me be the music supervisor.
Yeah right, He's like, I know good songs, and you're like, oh my god, I hate this whole it's just a catastrophe.
And then the other one was when Julian Moore like leaves the bathroom because the scene where it's the graduation dinner kind of goes terribly wrong, and the children who have left the house are kind of like out of her grasp or spell and maybe seem to realize that their lives have been particularly messed up, and so there's a level of rebellion. She gave them a scale for their graduation gifts or whatever, and she wanted a beautiful time, and then Natalie happens to be in the bathroom at
the same time. Of one line I do remember thinking was like quite interesting, was like the I guess I've always been naive, you know, and that's helped me or something like Julian Moore says something to that, like I've always been naive.
Yeah, you know this character's obsession with control, including controlling how well, wait, should we take a break.
Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and really dive into this discussion. So we'll be right back and we're back. So, yes, we've already kind of started this discussion and let's keep going.
Yeah, Karen, I want to go back to what you were saying about how I mean, I think Joe is the character to really art with here because like, I completely agree that we we're kept at arm's length from him the entire story, and you start to see towards the end there are a few really beautifully done scenes by Charles Melton. In the scene where he's finally confronting
his abuser and stating what's happened. I think the scene with his son is really good too, and like there's a few really good scenes with him late in the movie, but for the most part, we're kind of like kept it arms length through him, and I wasn't able to like, I don't know, I don't hate the framing device for this movie, but I also think that there were ways that were like obvious to more meaningfully include Joe even
within that framing device. But then I wonder, I'm like, is it possible when it's like, to me, this movie should be more about Joe, but then it seems to want to be about a struggle for a narrative control between Gracie, who's pretty obsessive about getting people to think a very certain thing about her that isn't true, and she knows that, like, she's not a naive person at all, she's a control freak that wants people to think she's naive.
But that comes at the expense of focusing on who's been abused, And I feel like that is like consistently an issue, no matter how well other portions of it are done. That seems to be like a consistent issue in movies about abuse and also just dealing with abuse on a longer timeline, because that's so like you never see that someone coming to terms with abuse, you know, over twenty years later, which is like a common experience, and I feel like, yeah, we were kind of cheated
by not getting to go with Joe on that journey. More.
Did you see that other movie by that filmmaker that was on a I think it was nominated for an Emmy and it was about her abuse experience and kind of realizing that this relationship that she had when she was like thirteen years old was actually an abusive one.
Was it?
Did this come out a couple of years ago? Yes, Okay, I did. I can't remember what it was called. Oh god, I don't. I hate these search terms, but yes, sorry, I continue.
I can't remember the name of that film, but I remember thinking the psychology of that film was so illuminating, And even the way we are discussing this film now feels like it has more depth and substance than what was put on the page in the movie I watched, And it's like the audacity to take this topic if you don't have the kind of grit to examine the psychology of like who these people are, why they are
the way they are. When the culminating scene is the last scene in an actual interview, like when that should have been kind of a jumping off point. The whole thing felt for me, the kind of you know, the third person, like really abstract eye of the framing device on top of it to remove you even further from that narrative just felt like like again, I watched this movie and I was like, oh, that's well directed, that's like,
these actors are great. And then there was a niggling feeling and I was like, why don't I what is it that's bothering me? I always felt like something was going to happen, and like nothing happened, and it's like all in hot dogs and cakes, and like the entire movie is existing in these like these scraps that you were kind of clawing for, and it never felt like it ever came to a head or illuminated anything, or
came together. And so in that way, it becomes the exact voyeuristic exercise that it's trying to comment on, you know, because it's offered nothing of actual value into the human psychology. This is the last thing I'm going to say, and this is a thing that has bothered me a lot, and I don't think a lot of people talk about it in entertainment. It's like when you watch the real interview of the guy, he is like a dark skinned kid, you know, and the actor that they cast is a
biracial actor. You know, he's a pretty like white passing face.
You know.
It's like why is that okay? So much of the time, like why are we willing to do that with these actors who should be Like, that's a real person. I remember seeing that in the Facebook movie and Social Network, like there's an Indian guy named Vivia, real Indian guy. Anthony Minnguela ends up playing him again very like light skinned person lights.
He's not damn if he's not.
He's not Indian.
He's like I mean, and this is like a brown dark brown skin. This is a real person, you know, and we're we're so specific when it comes to like, oh, well, who's a real cab driver or who's a real like do you know what I mean? Like all then it's all about authenticity. But what do your emergency rooms look like? You know, like what do your doctors look like? And
then what do your doctors on television look like? And a lot of that to me, I can I feel myself getting angry, and I don't want to be that person. I'm reading tichn Han right now to try to deal with the seeds of my own anger. But quite frankly, I do still blame the world.
That's the truth it is at though, like you have every right to be angry about that.
But then it's really like what is the eye of the person or the institution or the system that is making the film and what they deem as like I'll pass, that's fine, that doesn't matter, and what is seen as important? And I say that specifically because this is a real person,
you know, this is a real person. And you see the casting controversies over like the Little Mermaid being black, you know, or fictional characters, like it's just wild to me that in these cases where you have a real human being, there was no maybe there was an effort made, I don't know. And then the irony is that the screenwriter is a casting director, you know, so cal like girl I found it.
Well, it's kind of like a two prog thing. First of all, this movie is completely disinterested in talking about any race or class dynamics in a way that is very frustrating because they're right there and it's like, I still I do think that this movie is unique and that there are elements of it that definitely like I haven't seen before that I thought were positive, But it is like there's so much that's kind of left on the table and leaves you feeling frustrated for days afterwards,
where it's the only clue you sort of get within this relationship that Gracie is very disinterested in dismissive of Joe's race, is that she gets it wrong. The one time that it comes up, she says, oh, you're the only Korean family in the neighborhood. He's like, well half Korean, and she's like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then keeps going. So it's like this is allegedly someone that she loves and can't even you know, isn't even interested in enough
to get that correct. But outside of that, it goes essentially completely undiscussed and unexplored, And I feel like on the writer's part, I feel bad, Like she was a first time screenwriter. She came out of casting like great.
Flowers to it all happening, and like it's absolutely an impossible business and we were happy for you.
And the fact that like, you know, women don't get to right movies enough. Obviously you could tell a woman wrote this movie. All that said, I think that there's like just it rubs me in such a weird way that this is so obviously the Mary kay Laturno story. But in every single interview I've seen that is like either like walked back by every single person who's asked anything about it. And I feel like Kieran, like speaking
to your point. One of the things that you can get away with by taking a step away from the story it's obviously based on, to the point where there is an entire scene that is ripped from an interview related to this case, is that you could quote unquote get away with changing the race of a character and casting a lighter skinned actor because you're like, well, it's not that story, it's a different story, when that's absolutely
not true. And then also watching that interview, you can see that Villi Fulau is sitting next to Mary Kayla Turno incredulous that whole time, where with Joe, it's more like in the context of the scene of where we're at in the movie, it makes sense, but it's just like Joe isn't allowed that sense of incredulousness that is reflected in the real story.
Because when we do see that in Joe's character arc, it's not until the last twenty or twenty five minutes of the movie, and then we cut away from that, and then the rest of the story focuses back to Gracie and Elizabeth and then the movie's over. So like like you said here and like right when, because sure, like the agenda of this movie is to examine, you know, like how difficult it is, especially for people who abuse, and specifically child sex abuse, for whom it has been normalized.
Those people having a difficult time kind of interrogating that because it has been normalized. But then you know, when they start to examine it and think about it and acknowledge what happened and reflect, then they start to be like, wait a minute, this was messed up, Like this is a very traumatic thing that happened to me, and like the movie seeks to explore that process, but it focuses way too much on Gracey, not nearly enough on Joe, and I would also also say not nearly enough on
their kids, especially like the twins. It just is like, well, but what about that? To me? That scene where Gracie's putting the makeup on Elizabeth. I was like, what is this? Why is this? He cut it? I don't care about this, Like, I just found it unnecessary to the more core story here, which is, like, what does it look like when someone for whom sex abuse child sex abuse has been so normalized?
What does it look like when they do start to interrogate that and feel their feelings and try to confront their abuser, and like that, why isn't that the core of the story?
And what is the conversation around sex with your children? What is it when your child brings home a partner? Like what is like?
Seems like? Nothing like?
And and then the other thing is if you're taking from that interview, if you're literally ripping from that interview, the thing about Villy is he actually seems pretty smart in the real case, came from like a broken family and says very specifically in that interview, he says, I wanted my children to live in a two parent home
so that they had that growing up. Like there's a point of view there that's clear and it's quiet and it's strong, but like there's absolutely a point of view if you're paying attention when you watch that interview and I think, to me, this film is a really interesting lesson and who gets attention? Who gets to be paid attention to even in a story like this one, Because the most interesting thing about this story for me was the story, not the storytelling.
Yeah, I mean I feel like, ultimately, like if you're coming to this movie hoping to get a what we never get in stories about specifically child sex abuse and people recovering from child sex abuse, which is a focus on that you're gonna leave disappointed. I feel like the way in which I was able to engage with this movie is because these movies almost universally in a way
that this movie is not different centers the abuser. I think that the one strength of this movie is that I don't think it like leaves you wondering like is she a good person? Which a stunning number of these movies do of, Like, not only is the story of Lolita centered on Humberd Humbred, there is like ways that a lot of people leave the movie adaptations of that being like this was a tragedy. Ultimately, this is a
romantic tragedy. So not only do we have no interest and active demonization done of the victim, but you have this sort of bizarre, underhanded redemption arc for the abuser. I think that this movie lays out pretty clear, especially like on repeat viewings, that like she is delusional, she is unapologetically a monster, she will never face herself, which seems to be the experience of Mary Kayla Turno who died in twenty twenty, and so in that way, I
think it is interesting saying the Natalie Portman character. Honestly, I like the idea of it, and like I feel like there are a few moments where it felt valuable where you see Natalie Portman so actively taking part in the continued exploitation of this story, the continued like her whole job there is to focus on the abuser, which is why I feel like it takes her a while to get even develop an interest in Joe, and when
she does develop an interest in Joe, it's gross. She goes to the pet store and tries to fantasize what it was like for Gracie to sexually abuse him in a pet store, and it's like framed as like this is such a goofy thing that I'm doing. I don't think the movie thinks she's right for doing that, And I think it's like really gross to have to watch someone so invested in exploiting this and then at the
end exploiting it badly on top of it. But it still makes like all the same, not even like I mean, it just like completely turns its head towards who was abused and then who gets abused by extension where you get moments with Georgie, but then you sort of get it suggested like well but Georgie was kind of evil, and you're like, well, I don't know, and I agree with the kids where it's like everything you know about the kids is for the most part in relation to
her and not him, you know that, like he seems to be invested in being a really good father. I do feel like, going back to your point, Kreen, like if we're comparing Joe and the real life analog, really who is of Samoan descent, that he's actively kind of dumbed down a little bit. It seems like he's made to seem more bumbling, less smart, more easily dismissed by the narrative, and she's just like a bulldozer.
It was, and he was wooden. He struck me as quite Wooden like not anyway. Whatever, it's fine.
Yeah, the performances are.
Good here in Stall. It's fine. It's fine. It's whatever. We have to move on. But that's literally what this podcast is about. We don't have to move on.
I mean, we can talk about till the Cows Come Home.
I mean. The movie's other agenda is to examine how often something like child sex abuse gets sensationalized and mishandled in media, especially you know, tabloids and Hollywood movies, which is why that final scene plays out the way it does, and why you see Natalie Portman's characters are pan out the way it does, because at first, she seems, you know, objective about this, as far as like, I'm conducting this research, I'm talking to these people, I'm trying to understand how
they feel, why this happened, all of that stuff. But then you see her start to engage in really gross behavior. She manipulates Joe into a sexual relationship with her, much like his abuser did when he was a child. Like it's just I think that that's something this movie handles well. Is like that examination of the mishandling of other Hollywood movies.
But as far as the way this movie's structured, I feel like Natalie Portman's character coming in should just sort of be a catalyst that gets Joe and their teen kids to be thinking about this and interrogating it and processing something that they've clearly never had a chance to process.
Right, It's not even like you need to get rid of the Natalie Portman character, because I mean, it's devastating to see Joe once again put through the cycle of abuse, and Natalie Portman is sort of like peacocky around like she's a fucking journalist. She's not, and I think people a trusting her as if she is, which is a huge miss and I think that that's the mistake that Joe makes, is he entrusts her as if she is not just a journalist, but an ethical journalist, and she's neither.
She's on a show called Nora's Arc like she which I do think is really funny every time I hear it. But I think all three of us sort of agree that the movie's mission versus what we would have wanted focused on is different. But even going with what the screenwriter chose to go, and why can't we see people talking behind Natalie Portman's back. She is not God, She's not even good at her job. I would have loved like especially with the kids and her daughter Mary like that.
Maybe it is just like the dressing room scene that is like so devastating, and like Mary, I wanted to see more with all three of them, but with her specifically, because it seems that of the three, she is going through like coming to terms with who her mother is for is who she's been conditioned to believe her mother is still loving her mother, and working through that and going through like the fact that Gracie's character is at different points controlling and critical of all three of her
children's bodies. It's like, drink milk, you're not strong enough, your arms look fat in that dress, and I gave you a scale for graduation like she's I think in a way that is very typical of like white boomer women obsessive about like monitoring their children's weight. But Mary, in particularly, it seems like she's going through so so much. When she's about to leave this house, they're clearly worried about what's going to happen to their dad once he's gone.
Why can't we see the kids talk to each other, Like those are really really interesting conversations, and it makes sense that, like the scene with Charlie and Joe and the roof is really good and it's also clear and just like remembering being a teenager with like a parrot who is going through shit or is like emotionally fragile, Like, those conversations with them are totally different than the ones you have with your sibling where you're like, what the
fuck is going on? Like they know what's going on? Why don't we get any insight? It feels like this movie will only be as interested as Natalie Portman's character is in anything that's happening, and that seems like a huge missed opportunity.
And if you had her be the lead, it's kind of like the inconsistency. Okay, great, this is the framing device of the movie. We're deciding that this is what we're going with.
Great.
Is she a B movie actor that's like in a bad thing that isn't good? Or is she like incredible at delivering this monologue in an Oscar winning performance? Is she you know, genuinely interested? Like there's like a little bit of tonal like because Natalie is a pretty invested actor, and that's a phenomenal monologue. She crushes the game on that shit.
So it's like, but then it's bad ten minutes later.
Yeah, yeah, But then it's like, let her be amazing at her job so that she can ask better questions and we can learn more as an audience, do you know what I mean? Like as opposed to being so surface, I don't know what the solutions are because it's like, in order for you to have the conversations with just the siblings or whatever, then she's not around, do you know what I mean? Like, there aren't a lot of
like third person omniscient. It's weird like sometimes it will show you just the relationship between Juliane and Charles Melton, but like but then it weirdly shifts into like third person omniscient, like sometimes but it's mostly Natalie Portman. We're looking at everything through every scene, so I don't think
it quite decided, if that makes sense. So that's the only reason I'm saying, like, Okay, but from the lensing device, like make an omniscient third and she's one of an ensemble of characters, and then we can actually see a little bit more like portraiture and it's.
Like you don't even need to lose the focus that, Like, it seems like another big mission of this movie is to like, I don't like in a way that the more I'm so glad we're talking about that, Like, the more that we talk about it, the more it's like it is frustrating that, Like Gracie is really obviously needing to control the narrative around her life, and she's like, I don't know about this movie, but clearly if she can get Natalie Portman on her side, that is a
huge win for her in controlling this narrative. And she wants to, you know, be like we are a normal family, we are happy. Why would you portray us, you know otherwise. But like there's a way to like even still center how she is being controlling without giving the lens to Natalie Portman. Then, like, even if you give it to Julianne Moore, you still get a lot more insight into
what this family is. Like, I mean, you do get yeah, like Karrian, You're right, you do get those moments where you're back in the house and it does shift to Joe in moments, But it's like only to an extent and only really to the extent that it serves Gracie or Elizabeth's story, not outside of that, except I think the only real exception to that is the scene with
his son and the scene this father. Those are the only two like moments we get to see Joe, and then when he's texting his secret girlfriend and I'm like, go to her, go to her whatever, go get the butterfly girlfriend, get out of there.
Yeah, but we also don't have any sense of how Joe's father or Joe's son feels about this situation, except like a tiny little glimpse where Charlie when they're on the roof and he says just something like I can't wait to leave home, implying this situation's fucked up. And I had thought it was normal because that's all I knew. But when I sat down and thought about it off screen, maybe it's not great and I want to leave. But we can only sort of speculate it what he's feeling.
I also want to know, like why if we have the older sister Honor who is out, and I think she's like more empowered to be like this fucking sucks now that she's out. She has like incredible freshman year in college energy I really love her where she's just like you guys fucking suck like and she's right or her mom fucking sucks and she treats her as such. But it's like, does Honor talk to her half siblings? Like is that something that is? It doesn't seem like that,
but we don't know for sure. It seems like in my mind, why wouldn't once you're out of that house, why wouldn't you want to go talk to your half siblings and sort of have some validation of how fucked it is to have to be in Gracie's life at all,
much less be her child. Like there, I don't know, there's a million relationships that you can explore, but it just more focused on like the bubble that is carefully built around Gracie to protect her, and that mission has made clear super early because it's like Kaitlyne, what you were saying with the neighbor being like be nice to her. We know that the lawyer's wife buys a million pineapple upside diame cakes from her to make her feel like she is liked. No one is worrying about Joe. Joe
is a critical component to preserving Gracie's reality. And that's I mean, I think that that like does reflect real life dynamics that happened, but like get more into it.
It's also like you can show how controlling somebody is by all the people around them who talk about them behind their back. It's all those conversations around somebody that you can be like, oh, this is the way that they're manipulative, because then you can watch their behavior but then see how that plays in contrast, even down to like that dinner table conversation when the teenager like stomps
upstairs and he doesn't have the milk something. It's like if Julianne Moore was just like teenagers, you know, teenagers, you can't control them, do you know what I mean? And it's like but really though, because you fucked one, you know. So it's like the kind of like if you could even just twist the knife a little bit deeper into like having the character have to confront some of what she did because of the presence of Natalie Portman and the questioning that would come up as a
result of this person. Because even that Ozzie interviewer in that interview does more of it than this film does in my opinion. You know, he was like, Mary, you were wrong. Mary, come on, you were wrong, Mary, Mary, come on, come on, Mary right? And Mary, he was a child, Mary, you know what I mean?
Like, and then Villie is also sitting right next to her being like I was a child. Like it's if you're listening to this episode, you haven't seen that interview. It's brutal, but it is important to and I haven't seen,
like I find it really frustrating. So when I went to the SAG screen, I was really confused and bothered, especially having seen so many movies like this how everyone but also Julianne more specifically, and I love Julianne where but she will not call this character a child sex abuser or an abuser at all, Like it was really And at first I was like, maybe this was a weird interview, Like I don't know, it felt off to me because first of all, the name Mary kay Laturno
or really fill out did not come up in this forty five minute discussion they had, which is already like I was like, is there like a life right's evasiveness? But then I was like, no, she's dead, Like why could we not acknowledge the very very clear source material here that which has been consistent in their press tour are then julian more specifically, like this is pulling from a Todd Fields right.
Todd Haynes is the director of not Todd Tar Todd Haynes.
Towar Todd's toward Tod's hard to keep them straight.
I like his work, but I can't remember it. Sorry, Sorry to Todd Haynes. Okay, this is an interview he did with Sit and Sound where he's describing what my recollection of that Q and A was. So he says, quote, I already mentioned how I was not ready to think about certain aspects of the Mary kay Laturno story. But Julianne had a very strong idea that this woman wasn't a pedophile, that she had a princess syndrome, an intense
kne to be rescued by a young, virile man. It's like the myth of the young knight, who, with his sheer virility and stunning youth, will save you the damsel in distress. This enabled both parties to deny the age difference, because the power could shift back into his sure hands or whatever. And I did want those lines in the final bedroom scene, who's the boss and who is in charge? Who is in charge? To suggest the myths that they live under. This movie was just so full of extremes
and exceptions and tabloid excess. It's also about people who refuse to look at themselves and the choices they make, which we all do, and I knew I also was doing unquote, so.
I like, wait, so Todd Haynes is saying that Julianne Moore refused to acknowledge that Mary Kayla Turno was a sex criminal and a rapist. Is that what I'm gathering, I'm not.
Totally clear, and I don't want it, Like that's a huge thing to level against someone. Yeah, it sounds like at least in her process to prepare for this character, she was like, well, Gracie doesn't think that she's a pedophile, So I as an actor cannot just.
Like a going method kind of like I have to get into this character psyche.
And it sounds like that, but it's also like, I mean, I don't know, and then at this point I'm reviewing some interviews I watch, but still it's just like it is weird to me that she's not playing the part anymore? Why can't you comment on this part, like, if you have to put yourself in a fucked up heads place to play a character to some extent, that's the job, that's how a lot of people do it. But you filmed this a year ago. Why can't you not like
acknowledge who you were clearly basing your performance on. Because there was a lot of talk about the creative choice of the list, but that also comes from Mary Bayla Turnal, so like acknowledge, Like, I mean whatever, I just think it's a very confusing choice to not acknowledge. To continue in the press tour, be like, well, I have to honor this character. You're like, no, you don't. Your character is a sex abuser. They went to.
Jail, especially because that's in direct conflict and contrast to what this movie's trying to say, which is, look how fucked up Hollywood mishandles and how it sensationalizes child sex abuse in movies about that, Like.
It was really the only person and I'm blood so like the screenwriter Sammy Birch is like, yeah, I remembered, like as I think Sammy Burch is like in her late thirties and like remembered basically being the age of Villy Fulau when the story happened, Like has talked about that at length, but every other major creative player like will not go there. And I just think it's weird.
I don't get it because, yeah, like you're saying, celet that feels like it plays into the tropes around these movies, because I feel like with these movies, the content of them and the way that they're discussed in public is like almost equally important. I know that Todd Haynes can't control the way his movie has discussed or received, but it's just as significant. That's also kind of what the movie is about. So I just think it is. I
just it's been on my mind for weeks. Thank you for listening to my Ted talk at Why won't Julianne you're Todd Todd, My Todd talk Tod Ted talk. Why won't Todd make her talk about this? Why want Tod tell her to talk about it?
Do you remember Jamie that did you? Were you able to find the name of that other movie on HBO that some other very good actor played.
Unfortunately, there are so many movies about child sex abuse on HBO. I can't find the one that I'm because I know it came out in twenty twenty or twenty twenty one.
I wish I could tell you. I might be able to find it for you later.
But it's it was really good.
I just remember watching that. I love the feeling when I watch something a feeling illuminated. I just love the feeling of feeling like I understood someone else's experience that's so different than mine, and you take me into the lens of like their erience, even if it's not my experience, Like that's kind of to me the magic of the storytelling in the filmmaking. And I just remember that that film that I cannot remember the name of. Clearly I'm terrible with names.
I don't even remember this coming out.
It was nominated for an Emmy, Was it okay?
I don't think I knew a lot of people that watched it. I mean, but it's a really hard movie to watch.
Yeah, it was a hard movie to watch for sure. The Tale, The Tale, The Tale, The Tale.
I totally agree with you, Karen, like it really puts in perspective over the course of a couple of hours, just like what a difficult experience that is to like untangle in your head even well into your adulthood, which
is what Joe is going through. And the movie only shows you the very very beginning of him and like leaves him in this interesting place too, where he doesn't want to sit next to the family at graduation, but he's still so proud of his kids, and you're just like, please just get in the car and never go back, please.
And take your kids with you, like get them out of there. Well they're out, that's the thing.
Well, yeah, yeah, I'm just reading this is Wikipedia. The Tales are twenty eighteen American drama thal written and directed by Jennifer Fox, starring Laura Dern. It tells the story about Fox's own childhood sexual abuse and her coming to
terms with it later in life. So I think it was probably because it was her personal story that it was like, oh wow, that was a film where I kind of watched something and I was like, damn, Like I watched someone go on a journey and learn how they saw something and then how they learned what something else was in a way that I don't know was
just like wildly elegant. It was a hard movie to watch and not a lot of people watched it, you know, and maybe that's part of it, do you know what I mean, Like, maybe it's all of this is also like a game of marketing and distribution and like who gets eyeballs for whatever reason, et cetera. You know, But that I do think, in contrast to May December, is like an interesting counterpoint, just I think specifically because it centers the victim.
It's like and we both liked it and didn't remember the name because no one talks about it anymore. It's that sort of terrible. The book that I wanted to recommend that sort of deals with the same perspective is called My Dark Vanessa came out in twenty nineteen twenty twenty by Kate Elizabeth Russell, based on experiences from her childhood.
But it's basically about it's told in flashbacks and in the present, where it's about an adult woman coming to terms with the fact that she was groomed and sexually abused by her teacher and did not believe that to be true until she's I think the characters in her mid thirties when she starts to deal with it, and it's I mean, it's brutal, but it feels like both of those projects are doing what you would want and
what I think should be more common. And this isn't a problem specific to May December, but it does feel like in a movie that is trying to comment on how these stories are told, It's gross to say, but I do think it is more marked to center the abuser and the stories that are not centered on the abuser do not tend to get this same promotional push.
Because it reminded me, Okay, this is like me being a broken record, but it reminded me of doubt Go with Me Here, which is a movie that is also about child sex abuse, but that there is this mystery about the way that that movie is made of, like did he do it? That feels completely beside the point of like, yes, he obviously did it. Why can't we center the family more? Why is Viola Davis only a one scene? Why do we barely see the child all
that stuff? And it feels like, because of the way that this movie is framed, the movie ends on this weird cliffhanger, like where Julia Moore is just saying shit at this point and then you're like, oh, what is her deal? And you're like I don't think that should be the central question of this movie, Like I, I don't know.
So here's a controversial point. It's like in an industry with notoriously so many high powered groomers and sex abusers, like I mean, because the thing that's interesting to me about the tale that we both don't remember is it's
also centered on an adult, like it is. It's actually I can understand why it would be difficult to watch a child, but it's interesting that it's another like very prominent like Oscar nominated, brilliant kind of I think caliber of like Julian Moore, Natalie Portman like kind of actor. It's a great cast, it's beautifully done. Why didn't it get the same push? Why didn't that get the theatrical We don't know. We don't know what the story is there,
but there's something. And again this is not the conspiracy theorist in me, but it's like, is it a cultural thing where it's like the audience isn't down or is it like a is it like a gatekeeper thing as to what stories we think are like what somebody in top position decides to put their push behind good question whether that's conscious or subconscious, not even that it's like
some conspiracy theory and citious thing. But I do think it's hilarious that we live in a post Harvey Weinstein world, a post Les Moonvez world, running CBS for years and then getting out on million dollar deals, and it's just like people failing upwards after they're like grooming and sexual abuse habits, like even in this business to this day, it's like and then we're surprised that, like the stories that get centered in this business are the ones that
like center the abuser and the mystery around them. Like is it that surprising?
Right? It's the same way that our cultures obsessed with like true crime from a ooh the serial killer standpoint, like ooh, the perpetrators of these crimes, let's learn all about them and how did they get to where they are and blah blah blah, whereas we rarely remember who the victims were, and we don't talk about them and
we don't remember their names. I don't know. There's just something about our current cultural climate that we are, for some reason able to more easily stomach learning about and hearing stories about criminals and perpetuators. Are these horrible things that.
I don't even think that it's our current cultural climate. I just feel like it's just like a stagnant Yeah, it's gone on forever. I don't know. I mean, like, what seems abundantly clear is that the stories that are told, it's very in line with the stories we see pop
off and get really pushed in media. The only reason this movie exists is because the Mary kay La Turno story was treated in the way that it was, to the extent that a writer felt, thirty years later the need to comment on it because the coverage affected her so strongly. But the coverage did not take an interest in Billy and mischaracterize it as an affair, which is like what this movie is attempting to grapple with. But it's like you're just like caught in this fucking feedback
loop of commenting on how poorly it's talked about. And I hope that like this movie being well regarded. I don't feel optimistic about it, honestly, but that this movie being generally well reviewed, well thought of, will at least indicate that there is an interest in confronting these kinds of stories, hopefully centering the right people, the people who are being victimized and who are surviving on long periods
of time having experienced this abuse. I also think that like this, I mean, who knows how you characterize this movie. It like it is objectively weird to be like this is a comedy. It's not, But there are moments of weirdness and moments of levity in it that I thought, Like, again, if there is a movie about survivor of child sex abuse, it doesn't need to be tragedy porn, even if they are going through something really difficult, Like, you can have
moments of levity. You can have moments of like be a person and experiencing day to day shit and weird stuff in your life while grappling with this. If the concern is like it's going to be too depressing, yeah, it's going to be really difficult to talk about.
But it's like, I.
Mean, think how many stand up specials are about a comics trauma in some way?
Yeah, Like it's possible to have levity to these stories and center survivors as opposed to the perpetrators of it. But I don't know. And also the two stories we're talking about, the Tale and My Dark Vanessa, while like closer to what we're wanting to see in storytelling are centered around young white women, and like, you don't see stories like the fictional character of Joe or the real life person really fulau dealt with in anything that gets produced.
So the fact that the tale comes out and not many people get to see it is like, it's just I don't know, it's really discouraging.
Yeah, I will say that when you brought up Caitlin the like why is our culture fascinated with the murderers, It's like because I've never really been that interested in that. But when I hear other people talk about it, the thing that I've heard them say, which I thought was interesting, is like it's so far from my life, do you know what I mean? Or like my life is calm.
I want my life to be calm. So there's like a voyeuristic element of like an escapist voyeuristic element of like let me see how like dark and weird other people's like fucked up lives are. Because then I go back to my life and it's like my kids and my family and I like feel good. Or it's like I've heard the same reason that people like reality television. I just love the drama because I don't like it in my life. So this is like an outlet, kind of like the way that sports is an outlet for war,
you know what I mean. Like it's like a way to be competitive in like a war sense. I mean that's not the way I see it personally, but I think that there's an interesting take of Like the other question is what do you want from your media? You know, and how much space do we have in a market place and in this attention economy? Like who gets the attention? To that end, I hope you have millions of listeners because otherwise I'm going to be devastated.
We have billions.
Wow, Okay, great Zuckerberg numbers. I love that.
Yeah, our Patreon is eleven billion people and we don't there are not even that many people on the planet. Yeah, but we have alien listeners from other solar systems.
Oh that's so chic.
Yeaeah, pretty cool.
It's a new pilot program that Patreon's doing. We've had a lot of luck with it.
Just yeah.
I mean reaching out to new markets is really the move.
Yea.
Our reach is far and wide, epernomical.
It's terrifying.
What I do think is very funny about the movie though, is like I can't think of that many movies that have like, oh, like I kind of watch it was like okay, And then as time went on, I was like, why is this bothering me? I think that's the reason I picked it as the one to talk about was I was like, it took me a while to figure it out because there's enough skill in the way that it's done.
Yeah, because it does have something to say that is valuable.
Yeah, It's like I don't think it's a bad movie. It's just like not as subversive as it's presenting itself. I think it's right.
Yeah, And in a weird way, it's like the insidious nature of the way that like the things that were wrong with it crept up on me. It's like weirdly reflective of like the insidious nature of the entire story, do you know what I mean, Like about abuse and all of the other Like that's why I thought maybe it would be like a kind of a rich discussion because everyone has a very specific take, and I guess you could argue that that's also good storytelling.
I mean, it also makes you ponder this movie not being that subversive because of who it centers, which is privileged white women. Like consider if the Mary kay Laturno or like, you know, a woman who abused a young boy was a woman of color, that story probably would have not gotten nearly the same media coverage that the Mary Kayla turnout case Scott or it would.
Have been treated tremendously differently.
Yeah, because of the way that like, white women doing bad things get so sensationalized in media, and then this movie is just kind of like perpetuating that same thing of like, well, yeah, we're focusing on the two white women of this story versus the survivor of the abuse, who is a person of color, and we're barely going to focus on him.
So yeah, and that's all a function of the fact that this movie was on the Blacklist and Natalie Portman took an interest in it, probably because she played that rolling lee on the professional you know, back in the day.
So we're about like for yeah.
Yeah, exactly, And so she took an interest in it, and she's famous enough to take it to her friend Todd Haynes and like, and then he's famous enough to know Julian Moore and those people are able to get this story made because those people have, like from a financier's perspective, it's enough like Cloud that it makes the
financial investment of the film worth it. So there's like also these weird mechanisms where it's almost built in, do you know what I mean, Like it's like if it wasn't a prominent like, how many prominent black actors are there who could do that? How many prominent POC actors are there that have that level.
Of cloud institutional support?
Yeah, the institutional support where the name and the attachment is like, Okay, we're going to take this first time screenwriter's movie and get it made kind of thing, right, you know what I mean? Like that's I think that there's also like a bias or a skew, just in terms of that's a vestige of like you said, culture begets culture to an extent, right.
Yeah, right, And then like going off that and again I'm presenting it as a hypothetical because I don't know because the way that this movie has been discussed it has been so bizarre to me, like because of the sort of sequence of this script getting handed from person to person to person in the way you're describing, was it ever handed to anyone who would have had the foresight
to be like, hey, where's Joe for this section? Or just like asking the questions because Charles Melton is the least famous lead actor, how empowered do you really feel? How included in the conversation do you feel? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like at least because I know that Todd Haynes worked with Sammy Birch to revise this script before he directed it. But it's like there was
clearly no one in the room. If these conversations did happen, I'd be curious what took place, because it's like, I feel like you should be tracking Joe in scene to scene and like finding points in the movie where you're like, okay, if we're not going there with him, why, Like what is the narrative function of excluding him at this point in the narrative? What is the new and a function of not sharing this? Like is this I don't know?
And again it's just like I think the core frustration is they wanted to tell a story that we don't think it is as relevant or interesting.
Which is arts Like you know, it's like I've always heard when you give notes on a movie give notes on the movie you watch, not the movie you would have made. So we have not done that in this podcast.
Todd Haynes didn't ask us for notes. So we talk our shit.
Yeah, yeah, we can talk our shit all we want. But that's the kind of It's like you said, it's not the story they wanted to tell. And I think maybe this is too cynical to say, but also maybe they just didn't care. You know. I think the one thing we don't talk about enough is like a lot of times the people in the room just don't care. I think they don't care. I just don't think they care. It's not that you don't know. It's not that you
haven't read the articles. Is that the person in the room has to give a fus shit, And it's a much easier position to pretend you give a fuck or to say that you It's exactly the duality you're describing
with Mary. You know, it's like it's much easier to pretend to be a person who can who gives a fuck, than to truly face yourself and see the hypocrisy of actually, no, he just wasn't that important to me, and anything that was confronting and pointed out that it was important to me was something I didn't want to listen to, and that wasn't given space in that room period. Like not in a mean way, but just in a like you know.
And in like the cynical Hollywood way. It's clear that this movie once it was cast, they're like, well, regardless of whether these are the most interesting characters, this is what we're gonna give everything to because we got Natalie Portman and Julianne Moore and no one in this movie. Even though I think that there are performances I don't love this Natalie Apartment performance, to be honest, Like, there are performances that I think exceed and characters that are
more relevant to the story. But they're like, well, we got to keep the famous person on because otherwise Netflix executives people turn it off if Natalie Portman's not on. Who gives a shit if this character is you know, the story or not? Who knows. I know that those processes are so, but it's like, I, cynically, I do believe that that is sort of why characters get focused on that are not as important, and like, oh, for sure, I don't know.
I think the thing about it that, Like, I think for the longest time, I thought, Oh, people just don't know. And then the longer I've spent I was like, oh, no, they don't care.
They don't they don't want to be bothered.
Oh they don't care.
And to understand that, you're like, Okay, then this is a whole different thing, and maybe that's. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to confront any of our own whatever it is, do you know what I mean? Like I try to remind myself that I'm like, you know, those iPhones are made with like chips that are kind of like ruining countries,
and I still have an iPhone. I try to remember my own hypocrisy even if I'm not faced with that hypocrisy, and how easy it is to kind of turn away and say I don't want to deal with this because like I need my iPhone because of X Y or Z, even though I know that where that chip is coming from is actively making the world and other people's lives worse, you know what I mean. Like it's like hard to confront all of your own versions of hypocrisy. So like I try to remember that as a human being and
like have empathy for that position too. You know, but I haven't been able to like kind of reconcile the understanding of like preaching one thing public facing and then the like apathy. Yeah yeah, but the actually I'm just like just I wish people would just say, yeah, we didn't care, because it's like, let me know where you stand. It's kind of like the thing where it's like I'd rather just hear, yeah, I'm racist than have somebody pretend that they care and then like, actually there's all this
like insidious shit going on behind the scenes. I'm like, at least I can respect.
Your position that you're aware.
I respect your take like it sucks and I don't agree with you, but like, at least you have this self awareness to be like this, who I am, bitch, you know what I mean, like, and you stand by and with that. But we don't live in that world. And I think that's why I've never really been a fan of Earth.
And that's why we have so many Intergalactic listeners.
That Patreon.
It's so frustrating, and like goes back to what your
point is is. I feel like there are elements of this movie that are trying to make that point while doing the same thing where it's like Bracie is a character who is aware of what the truth of the situation is but would never admit it, and she is made out to be kind of the villain of the story, when it's like this movie wouldn't have been produced and that character wouldn't exist if these same systems weren't already in You know, we certainly do live in this society
tone we Does anyone else have any thoughts on this movie they'd like to share.
I was just gonna say, that's why we do comedy, because it feels like the only thing left to do is laugh a lot at the times, you know, I feel like the only thing left to do is laugh and listen. The other thing that's great is that you guys do this podcast and you have this space to speak about it, Like I wouldn't have said it half the fucking shit I said on this podcast in most places, And honestly, when we get off this call, I'll probably ask you to delete most of it.
No, what you've contributed here today is very valuable.
And please don't put these opinions out there.
Sorry, this was all between us.
Yeah, it's just like a private, private comedy.
We're just for curious.
Ye, cool cool cool cool cool, But.
No, I mean, it's like this conversation was tremendously helpful for me to, yeah, just to like tease out, like what is working about this? What is it? And why is that? I feel like I hadn't gotten deep enough into that and why is that? And for a movie that just came out, that's a super valuable discussion for us to have.
And it's also interesting to see how much movies are, Like the one cool thing about a movie that's coming out right now is movies are, to an extent a reflection of the moment we're in, the cultural moment we're in. And so it's like sometimes if you can ask why is that, you also start to understand the society around
you a little bit better. You know, the society you live in, and why you know the way that maybe some of the choices in that movie were reflective of some of the systems in place, you know, that would make that be the movie that was told, which has its own value and merit, And like, you know, it's also like we all understand that this is a bunch of like well meaning artists, I'm sure for the most part, who are like trying to make something good and that's
always hard, and you get the money where you can and you fucking run with it. I'm sure all of those people have like ten things they are trying to get made that can't get made. You know, when you listen to like Martin scor says, he's whatever his stories about, like spending thirty years trying to make I don't know that movie with those old people in it, you know.
Yeah, I mean this feels like a stepping stone movie where it's like cutting in a more right direction but still missing the mark in some regards. But it'll open the doors to other movies and other stories down the road that do more meaningfully explore the things that are lacking in this movie, So we'll see.
I hope that we live in a world where a big director not just has the interest but also the like institutional support to tell the story of a Joe as opposed to intentionally or not. This movie like accomplishes further turning Mary Kayla Turno into this American character that is still with us, and it's like, come on, guys, I can't like.
Yeah, we need a new Todd to make a different movie.
But I don't incurred that was more Todds.
That's what we did, all right, More Todds is definitely the conclusion of this podcast, and I think we've all decided more Todds.
Okay, so this is a future Caitlin and Jamie popping back.
In as promised. Yes, we're recording this pick up on Wednesday, January tenth, if there are more updates. Unfortunately, this is why we don't usually cover movies that just came out. However, we did want to just sort of touch on a
few things first. I guess, having had a week to sit with the discussion we did in this episode, I feel like it was a lot of talk about what we would have liked versus what we got, and I've been struggling with I've been sitting with this conversation, which I'm so glad we had because it was so challenging and so like, I don't know, I guess I just wanted to add that as much as I think it is like clear that it's not necessarily for the good of all for there to be this bevy of movies
that ask you to try to understand the abuser, I feel like I might have oversimplified how I approach that. I don't think that that is a useless thing to attempt within a film. I don't think it's necessarily the most important thing. But I was thinking about it just from the perspective of how I've heard a lot of survivors of abuse talk about, not this movie specifically, but movies that tackle these themes. Where as a culture, how
do we prevent abuse if we don't understand it? And sure, so, I just like wanted to add that as an addition to what we spoke about. I don't think it resolves a lot of the issues that we had to this movie, but I don't think that that is like a completely cynical and terrible thing to attempt.
No, And I don't think we explicitly said that. It's more just like, why does the focus always tend to be off the perpetrator and very rarely on anyone else involved.
So the other thing that we need to talk about is the fact that we obviously discussed the many parallels that the story of Made December shares with Mary Kay Laturno and Billy Fulau. Since we recorded that the Golden Globes have happened, Natalie Portman, Charles Melton and Julianne Moore were nominated, so there's a lot of interviews that took place in the week leading up to it. Villy Fulau actually did watch and release a statement about this, so I just wanted to share what that was quickly. I
think it's very pointed. And then also Julianne Moore and Natalie Portman have since reacted to that. So this was originally in an interview done with the Hollywood Reporter. You know, long story short, no surprise here. He does not like the movie and offers clear reasoning why. He says, quote, I'm still alive and well, if they had reached out to me, we could have worked together on a masterpiece. Instead, they chose to do a rip off of my original story.
I'm offended by the entire project and the lack of respect given to me who lived through a real story and is still living it unquote, and so I think I mean that unfortunately connects to the discussion we were having about the fact that the more time that passes, I find it incredibly evasive and dishonest that the filmmakers are not acknowledging the parts of this movie. I understand
that it is not one hundred percent biographical. It couldn't be because they didn't reach out to him, right, But I just think that it's like, for a movie that seems to want to make a point about the exploitation of survivors and of the media cycle, this press tour from May December does not feel challenging of that at all. It's extremely evasive. Every single response that you see as that, well, it's not based on that. But meanwhile, the climax of
the movie features direct polls from Mary kay Laturno. Julian More discussed watching documentaries about this case. I find it really frustrating. His quote continues quote. I love movies, good movies, and I admire ones that capture the essence and complications of real life events, you know, movies that allow you to see or realize something new every time you watch them. Those kinds of writers and directors. Someone who can do that would be perfect to work with, because my story
is not nearly as simple as this movie portrays. Unquote. So here like again, I feel like I understand just whatever, having seen biopics, the limitations of writing a biopic, how you are behold into a lot of things that often produce a frustrating movie. If that is the case, this movie, I don't think like has a case for being transformatively different enough from like change more details, is what I'm saying.
If you don't want to feel beholden to this real life survivor of abuse, who a lot of his biography was completely glazed over, Like you can't just change his race and make him less smart and be like transformative. And I was seeing a lot of like back and forth on Twitter that generally fell on the side of the movie. I just found it frustrating. What I found
really frustrating was the actor's response is to this. I know that I reference the SAG screening that i'd been to Yeah brag, oh okay, where it was my first sort of encounter with like this press tour feels weird to me that continued. So to be fair, these actors are being confronted on a red carpet, so it's not like they've had time to put their thoughts together about the reaction. It appears that both actors did not. This
is what we're talking about. Julian Moore Natalie Portman was not able to find a Charles Melton reaction, which is what I'm most interested in, But what right? In any case, I do think Charles Milton was robbed for the Golden Globe, But in any case, Yeah, So it seems like Julian Moore and Nadelie Portman are learning this for the first time on the Red Carpet, So take that into consideration with these quotes. Sure, but Julian Moore says, ah, I'm
very sorry that he feels that way. I mean, Todd was always very clear when we were working on this movie that this was an original story. This was a story about these characters. So that's how we looked at it too. This was our document. We created these characters from the page and together quote, I just think this is not true. This is demonstrably untrue. I just listened because why am I mad at Julianne Moore. That's not something I want for myself. But that's like not accurate.
It's just false because there are several interviews that happened much earlier that I'm pretty sure Julianne was present for. And even if she wasn't, she I feel like would have been privy to this information. Where screenwriter Sammy Birch specifically referenced the Mary kay Laterno case as being an inspiration and then like, right, you know, Julian Moore and Natalie Portman have both admitted this story was an inspiration but not meant to be a depiction of these real
life people. It's just an inspiration.
But it just ends up feeling like in this situation, I'm most inclined to empathize with Sammy Birch, who has been the most forthcoming. It's her first screenplay. Like, but I just I just find this to be incredibly dishonest because she mentioned having watched a lot of merycula, and I do believe that she did. She look at other cultural figures. Sure, I guess it is like it presents the question of like, I don't think we've ever talked about it in this context, but like what determines commentary
that is transformative? Yeah, for me, this doesn't clear the bar. It feels like and again, we talked about it this movie. I liked a lot of what it had to say, what it was trying to, like the messages it was trying to explore it. We've talked about that for two hours at this point, Right, but like it it doesn't clear Okay, Julian Moore continues to say, it was a
very challenging part. She's somebody who has transgressed in a major way again evasive language, and I think in order to justify what she's done, she sort of tells a story about her life. There's a lot of I don't know, it's interesting, you know, Natalie's character comes in and these two women are in a struggle for narrative dominance. Who gets to tell this story, Who's right, who's wrong? Unquote. Okay, fair point, but I feel like the reaction to VILLI fulaus.
It's just doing the thing again. I find it so cutly Natalie Portman reacted like this quote. I'm so sorry to hear that. It's not based on them. It's you know, obviously their story influenced the culture that we all grew up in and influenced the idea, but it's fictional characters that are really brought to life by Julian Moore and Charles Melton so beautifully, and yet it's its own story. It's not meant to be a biopic unquote. I find
I don't know. The more I sit with this, I know that everyone, I mean, I can see because there's like critics and friends that I respect and take their opinion in stride, But I just like it feels like this press tour is getting away with something that it just really doesn't sit well with me.
That in getting away with something that the movie seems to be critical of, which is how the media handles these types of cases.
Yeah, I think both of these sort of stories, the villifulau reaction and then the subsequent reaction. I haven't seen a lot of coverage about it. I've seen repeated and justified praises of Charles Milton's performance. I've seen a lot like there are a few May December press narratives that have really endured, you know, in the months since it's come out. It feels yucky to me.
Mhmm.
And that's future Jamie and Kate.
Yes, and now we dismount and return.
To the PA. All right, this movie does pass the Backfeld test. It does. It simply does. Yeah, And that's not necessarily super relevant to the conversation that we've had, but true, we always say at the end of the episode whether it does, and it does, and I think that's all I really have to say about it.
I agree, let's move on though to our nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, where we rate the movie examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, and I do appreciate the things that this movie is attempting to say about the topic of child sex abuse and how it's difficult for people to andate, especially if it has been very normalized for you, which for a lot of people it has because of this rape culture we live in, and because of the unchallenged sexualization of underage
people that exist to this day and has existed for all of time, that has been normalized, unfortunately, and the movies commenting on that, it is commenting on as a byproduct of that, how media and Hollywood sensationalize stories where child sex abuse has happened. And yet it doesn't, you know, hit the mark all the way because it's still I think, you know, we all agree here that it focuses on
the wrong people. We would have liked to see more about Joe's point of view, the kid's point of view, how they are processing this, how they're dealing with this, all of that stuff. So because of that, I think I'm only gonna give it. I'll give it three nipples. For what it's trying to do but also what it's failing to do. And I will give them two. I'll give one to Charles Melton, I will give one to real life person Reilly Vulao, and I will give my
third nipple to all the Todds of the world. All right, I'll give it to all the hot dogs. At the beginning by raw Dog by Jamie Loftus, thank you so much, You're welcome.
I'm gonna go right down the middle here, I'm gonna go two and a half nipples. I think, unfortunately it is still a big deal in any major release movie to acknowledge that an adult woman can sexually abuse a boy. I hate that is the case, but that you know, up until very recently was not like the way that you describe kids at your school talking about it is
clear evidence of that. Like that that is a fairly recent cultural shift that I think that it is like net positive to have a successful movie that unequivocally acknowledges
this was abuse. Yeah, having seen a lot of movies about this subject, I think this this movie is definitely like better than most, but still commits a lot of the same exact problems that we see in movies that really mishandle the subject of child sex abuse, as with a lot of movies, like right when we talk about them after they come out, I feel like we did a good job this time. But sometimes it's just like when a movie just came out and you don't hate it.
I feel like you generally give it credit for being more progressive or subversive. Then it actually ends up being and you reflect on it down the line.
We have done this in the past.
It's true the things we said about Captain Marvel, I swear to God.
And Wonder Woman, like ugh, we were so young.
The point is never again. No, I think that, like, I am not unhappy that this movie exists. I find it really frustrating. It's doing certain things well and then it's ignoring a lot of subjects that you would think if it really were like a subversive work, it would have more interest in. And also no one movie could you tackle an issue as complicated as child's sex abuse. And I feel like sometimes it's easy to be like, well,
I didn't it do everything. It's one movie. Hopefully, like you're saying, Caitlin, this is a step towards being able to tell a story that it seems like all three of us were more interested in And you know, I just think, like in all movies right now, I'm like, I just am like not really particularly interested right now in like narrative movies of like understanding a very evil person. And there's so many like that right now, and I think that sometimes they're like, but it's a girl boss
that You're like, I don't. It's still not working for me. But anyways, I like Todd Haynes, I love Carol and I'm giving this two and a half and I'm giving it all to the hot dogs.
Nice, Yeah, Karen, how about you?
I'd like to actually rate this on a scale of hot dogs as a post to nipples.
If that's cool, fine, Yeah, as as you're right.
Yeah, and I'd like to give it. I mean, I see this movie as beginning and ending for me. When I looked at that grill and I saw those hot dogs on the grill, and I think that Jamie really said this best. There's not enough people to eat all these hot dogs.
It makes you think were.
They going to sell them to Costco afterwards? Yeah? It makes you think. And I think the enigma of that moment, you know, is a metaphor for the enigma of everything we've spoken about today. So you may not give this movie a lot of nipples, but I will give this movie forty hot dogs.
Of course, amazing out of how many is the max number?
I'm not so sure.
Okay, okay, that's fair.
I'm just happy to be with you on this journey.
You're like, what is the maximum number of pot dogs? It's difficult to say.
Yeah, that's so true, that's so true.
I feel like we'd have to go back and rewatch the movie, and I don't think that's something any of us are gonna do.
Not I.
Yeah, Well, it's been a delight to have you, Karen.
Thank you so much for coming on for this truly like challenging episode. I mean, it feels weird to be like, I had a great time, but I thought this is a great discussion. Thank you for We just covered Shrek four, so we're pretty you know, like the discourse has just been all over the place this month, on the Pods.
The Donkey Man, love him exactly, exactly.
Where can people check out your stuff, follow you online, et cetera.
I'm on the internet at shit from Kieran Shit like the poop that comes out of your butthole, how foor gets delivered to you in the mail if you are a character in May December, just shit from Kieran on all the platforms on the internet. Forgive me Internet, and dear listeners and intergalactic listeners. I did come up with that a long time ago, and it was foolish of me, and it's too.
Late to change it.
Yeah, sorry about that.
Yeah, it was I did it to myself. I was like, oh, this is flippant, but that was ump. That was dumb and I have regrets. And here we are.
And be sure everyone to watch Destroy All Neighbors, starring Kieran.
No, it's not starring me. It's starring Jonah Jonah Ray You're and Alex Winter from.
Oh Bill and Ted right, Yeah.
Yeah, very nice, gentlemen. And it's a little horror comedy and it'll come out on January twelfth, and you guys will have to review that movie, not with me, and see if that passes the Bechdel test.
Will it's on the top of our list.
I won't be listening to that episode, just so you know. And I don't want to know how many nipples or hot dogs it gets because of my deep sensitive no whatever, it's a fun horror comedy.
Hell yah nice, Well, thanks again for coming on the show. You can check us out at Bechdel Cast on Instagram and Twitter slash x bla, as well as our Patreon at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. Become a matron yes, and you'll get access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog. Also check out our link tree for tickets to our upcoming tour in early February. We're going to cities in California and Texas.
Why because we've felt like it. That's just how it ended up.
Yeah.
And then you can also get our merch at teapublic dot com slash v Bechdel Cast. And with that, let's have a hot dog? Is that the song I kind of forget? Bye Bye Bye Bye.
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie loftis produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Volskrosenski. Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftis, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash Bechdel Cast