Matilda with Jess Murwin

would gladly eat the chocolate cake. And in fact, I wish you thought through this punishment more because it seems like I win. Yeah. Well, now I'm rethinking it, and I feel like I should just invite you over to eat some cake with me and like have a nice time together. Yeah, should we just like hang out? Yeah, let's do that. See, this is how the conflict should have resolved in that scene. That's that's good screen writing. Absolutely. Yeah.

Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. It just is there to initiate a larger conversation we have. But Jamie, tell me, yeah, what is it? What is the Bechtel test? I get you? Keep eating your cake. I'll let you know what it is, Okay, the back

Del disgusting. The Chel test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechdels, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. There's many versions of it. Here's the one that we use. We require that therapy two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialog, and the exchange should be meaningful in some way. Ideally Yeah, so so no, Hey, can I take your order? Yes?

I will have the cake unless it's important plot cake, in which case, so you know it's complicated. Every plot cake it counts. If it's just cake, it doesn't count. Every exchange is worth a close examination, which is why we talk about the movies for longer than the movies run time almost every time. True, ye, should we bring on our returning guest? Yes, we have a much requested

episode today. We've been getting requests for this movie for years, and we were simply waiting for the right time, the right place, the right guest, and here they are and the time is now our guests. They are a non binary, mixed race magma artist, curator, and educator. Their work focuses on reclaiming narrative space and fusing genre with social justice and holding space collaboration. And you know them from our episode on Rhymes for Young Ghouls. It's just Merwin. Hello,

Let's get sticky. This movie is very sticky. So many textures, so many gooey, gooey textures. Um, I forgot that John Lovett's has like a cameo as the Let's Get Sticky guy from the TV show they watch. Also, like there's a magazine at one point that Zinny is holding with like like Let's get Sticky and John Lovett's on the cover. So I'm like, is this game show in world like a big thing, like a big deal, And like, I

bet interesting, you know, interesting choice. I kind of want to what I would I like, I know that there's a lot of telegraphing of like television is the root of all evil in this movie, which you know, I agree to disagree. But but as I was as that show was playing, I was like honestly, I would watch that show. That's I watched The Masked Singer, Like, I would watch that show for sure. Um, have you heard about this new reality television competition program that's called The Activist?

Oh my god, Yeah, that is a show I will not watch and how it's a fucking horrendous disaster piece of ship. Yeah, but I kind of want to watch it for similar reasons of being like, oh, this is a bad idea, but like it, Like I can't not watch. I cannot watch. I like reality TV always has its finger on the pulse of late stage capitalism. Uh that is like the most late stage capitalism. I was like, oh wow, okay, so we're just doing this that Yeah,

that's that's going to be a bleak one. Who is like I I forget who was like on the feel like sure as a judge, Yeah, I wonder if he's going to be like, Okay, here's I can only contribute ushbucks to Uh interesting? Oh my goodness. Yeah, you know, famous famous philanthropist and singing sensation philanthropist. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Like I you know, I saw a post.

I think it was a friend of the show Jamison, meaning who was like posting about it, and I was just like this, this is such this is like a nightmare that I would have, you know, like right, so you know, it's like I feel the same way about let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. Yeah, well should we get sticky by diving into Jess? What is your relationship with this movie? Um? Oh boy? So you know, Matilda was like a very treasured film like when I was

growing up. It was one of the ones that we had on VHS definitely, and that in like the Lindsay Lohan parent trap. We're on like constant rotation in my hand like house with like my little sister, and you know, it was really funny because I hadn't seen it in a really long time. And then we were talking about like coming back on the show and I was like trying to think of movies and I saw that like Matilda was now on Canadian Netflix. I was like, oh

my god, we should do Matilda. And it was literally the first time that I'd watched it probably in like twenty years, and all of a sudden had this like a piphany moment, was like, oh my god, I think this movie is why I'm gay, Like like, oh, this is my route, um because and we'll get I'm sure we'll talk more about that. But like, rediscovering this film as an adult in the last you know, month or so has been a real trip. It's not me really reevaluate do a lot of things about myself in a

positive way. Like I'm like, I say, I hope in a good way. Yeah, yeah, you know. And I'm like, oh, maybe this is where I learned things because like, again, you know, there is a lot of like messaging in this film about how television is bad. But I also feel like, at least for our generation, I was really raised by TV, like you know, so I'm like, maybe I was also a bookish kid who didn't really have friends. I was also a kid who had you know, abusive

parents who didn't understand me. I was like, maybe maybe this is Matilda is the reason Matilda's like why I became an educator or like yeah, I don't know. Yeah, so I so it's very near and dear to my heart in in a lot of ways. Um yeah, that's that's sort of my history with it. Was like I loved as a kid, didn't see it for a real long time, watched it again and was like, no, I'm reformulating my personality around this movie and so much as

coming into focus. Indeed, indeed, Jamie, what's your relationship with Matilda? I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have never seen this movie before, which is so bizarre to me because it's like I'm in the right age range to have seen it, Like I think everyone I know is seen it. I think that it had to do with

my mom didn't like Rolled. I don't know. I feel like there's over the years on the show, I've just discovered all of these bizarre rules that my mom imposed on our media diets, just based on her personal preferences, where she's like, I don't like Rolled Doll adaptations, they're gross, and therefore I think it was just she was like, these movies are too sticky and you can't watch them. I mean, let's get sticky. I wasn't allowed to watch Um Charlie and the Chocolate Factory either, so and I

don't even think it was allowed. It's just like it wasn't around, it wasn't available because my mom thought it was gross. So I've never seen this movie before, and oh my gosh, I wish I had seen it because it would have, um, it would have made me so happy. I really, I really really loved I mean, there's plenty to talk about, but there's also so much joy in this movie, and like you can just tell in the

production of the movie as well. It was just such a great I watched the movie three times to prepare, which was not necessary, but I just was enjoying it so much. And then I was like having a tough couple of weeks, and I kept coming back to it because it made me feel good about the world. And so yeah, and also I feel like we should, I mean, we at the betele cast have an extreme Maura Wilson bias because yes, Maura Wilson is a friend of the cast.

So also you know, we're we're always tipping the scales in Mara's favor. That's true. Check out the episode we recorded on ELF couple of years ago featuring Mara. So yeah, this was my first time seeing it and seeing it and seeing it and it makes me so happy to watch. So I'm so glad we got to talk about it. What about you, Kitalin, Yeah, um, my relationship is fairly limited. Actually,

I had seen it as a kid. I remember there was some VHS that we owned that had remember when, like VHS has had trailers for other movies that were coming out around the time. I forget what one it was, but I've seen the like teaser or whatever for this movie hundreds of times for whatever VHS that teaser was on. I don't remember which movie it was, so I've seen the trailer a million times. But um, I had only seen this movie probably once or twice as a kid, so and it was so long ago that I might

as well not have really seen it. But then I did kind of take it upon myself to watch it as an adult within the past year because I figured we'd cover it at some point soon, and I was like, oh,

I should like reacquaint myself with this movie. And I did, and I was, yeah, like pleasantly surprised by how sweet and compelling it is, and how there's a lot to talk about, as per always with every movie, absolutely, and it's like it's one of those things that like Jamie you mentioned too, like there's a lot to talk about just in the film itself, but like also behind the scenes as well, like and a lot of like contexty sort of stuff that, like, you know, on the surface,

it's like, oh, this is like a beloved children's film, but there's actually there's so much there and there was so much going on to even like bring it into existence, like have it exist as a film. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I was really surprised you guys hadn't done it yet. So I'm super happy that, like we get a chance to chat about it because it's one of the few

or I don't I don't have like the best. I'd have to like do a thorough study on this, but I feel like so many movies, like kids movies, like family oriented movies from this era and like a little earlier, like the eighties and nineties, we're focused on little boys. Um, and it feels like this is one of the few from that era that features a little girl. So and they still, I mean they still skew very heavily on like when they do focus on little girls, it's usually

little white girls. But I'm like the movies that come to mind from this era, I feel, let me know if I'm missing anything. But it's like Matilda, Harriet the Spy, a Little Princess, uh Lindsay Low and parent Trap is that it is there. Yeah, definitely. I Mean if you could include all the amazing Mary Kayton Ashley movies, that's true there, and then there's five hundred movies about girlhood

that's very true. That's very true. Like, but it's it's really interesting in terms of that because I still feel

like to a certain degree that's still the case. Like I think it's changing, but like I think about like the young people in my life, nieces and nephews and like friends of kids and things like that, and like if I'm looking to like give them any kind of media, whether it's a book or a movie or something that like a lot of times it's really like I don't know, I feel really hard pressed to find like stories that are about like little girls that aren't like princesses or

aren't white, or aren't sort of you know, like upper middle class. And so you know, there's like certain ways that that that like, you know, we'll get into it, Like there's certain ways that like I think there's you know, playing to criticize with Matilda, but like I also think that there's like certain ways that it sticks out as like being so unique just out sticky, sticky. Sorry, it's

stickies in your memory. Um, whoever like listens to this episode and tallies up how many time we say stick or sticky or make reference to like it's get sticky, like should have been some kind of prise, a big

bottle of goo. Yeah you're welcome. Yeah. Um, but like yeah, like I think we've until this sort of like still sticks out like in the landscape of children's media because of that, like she's not a princess, and like there's like some good values that are still sort of like in the film that like make it really repiled a still show to young people. Yeah. Yeah, I think for the most part it holds up in in way more

ways than I was expecting it to. I mean, just even the core message that there's a little girl who is smart and the fact that she's smart makes her more compassionate instead of less. I feel like you see the opposite message telegraphed a lot and there I just love her, and and all the messages are of about like chosen family. Um, you know, all the messages to

around like having like a strong sense of justice. Um, I think are like really really interesting because like even before Matilda really gets like a hold of her powers, you know, she's like telling her dad, you know, like you're a crook, You're doing the wrong thing. The cops are like watching that, Like Paul Rubens is outside, is outside dad, and he's being a camera bro like he's like but like yeah, so so like you know, there's like there's things like that that I think are really cool,

you know, to like teach kids. It's like, yeah, if you feel like something is wrong, it's probably wrong, you know, like and you have a right to sort of say that. And with Miss Honey's storyline is like so much of her story progressing is dependent on her believing Matilda and taking her seriously, like we'reking for a little while she doesn't believe Matilda, she's sort of like, okay, pass around the head, and it's like, you know, sends her on

her way, much like the song sends her on her way. Uh. But then when she believes Matilda and does realize you know, that she's right, she does have these powers, and that ends upsetting Miss Honey free as well. I like the damn movie. It's nice. Yeah, let's take a quick break and then come right back to recap it and we're back. Okay, So here is the story of Matilda. We open on a newborn baby, as well as voiceover from Danny DeVito. But this is Danny DeVitto the narrator, not Danny DeVito

the character. They're two different things. But Danny DeVito is talking about how everyone is born, but some people are born special. Then we meet Danny DeVito the character a k a. Harry Wormwood. Not confusing at all, not confusing at all, but iconic. Like opening show, like, the introduction to Harry Wormwood is like kids make grimacing at a bunch of babies, you know, like you do, totally normal for an adult man just to like be making that

face out a bunch of newborns. Yeah yeah. And then he sees his daughter and he's like, I guess I also love like the whole sort of like there are two genders, pink babies and blue babies. I mean, unfortunately, something that so many people still subscribe to. There's a store, there's a store for babies down the street for me that's literally called the Pink in the Blue. How embarrassing for them? Yeah, okay, So we meet Harry Wormwood and

his wife, Zinnia played by Ria Pearlman. They take home their newborn daughter Matilda, who they barely pay attention to because they're selfish and they're not nice people. And also Ria Pearlman's outfits are really good. Oh, I mean actually all like the everyone's outfit in this movie. I feel like the like the Wormwoodes, even though you know their mean, mean mean, their outfits are the ones that I want

the most. I don't want the good guy's outfits. No, like Miss Honey for all of her virtues, essentially just wear his beige the whole movie. Yeah, I'm just like, oh the virtuous must wear beige. No, let the virtuous wear Pearlman's outfit. Yes, like her bingo jacket, her jacket bingos and rhind stones on the back, And I'm like, I want that jacket, that jacket. I hope that someone's taking good care of that jacket. I hope Rea Pearlman

still wears it. I hope she does do. Apparently she went to like when her and Danny Vido, you know, we're starting to work in the movie. Apparently she went to Las Vegas to buy all these clothes and it was like part of her personal wardrobe that she wore on set. So I was so I really do hope that like she does have that jacket and breaks it out for special occasions because it is so perfect. I forgot that she and Danny DeVito got divorced, and then

I remembered, and then it made me for around. But I didn't even know they were married until I was like reading about this movie they're iconically married. I guess I had no idea about Danny DeVito's personal life, nor did I really know who Rea Perlman was. My bad I stand for one as like as as a comedy, as a fashion icon. Um. But yeah, apparently they're still very good friends. They have stayed very close, so that like makes me happy. That kind of makes up for

the fact that they separated. Yeah, I just want them to be happy. They seem like such I've not heard. I hope that I haven't missed something, but I've I've never heard a bad word about either of them. They both seem so lovely. No, and that's something maybe like I don't know what we should like Caitlin maybe finished the recap, but that's something we should definitely talk about because I feel like Danny DeVito, shall we say, almost like unproblematic king Like I feel like, I don't know,

I'm problematic King, short King. The list goes on. Hopefully this episode age as well in that regard, because as of for this recording, unproblematic King who seems to be beloved by a But we've been fooled before. Yes that's true, that's true. But he just like got banned from Twitter like two weeks ago for supporting like Nibisco workers being

on strike. So like him, Oh my god, I didn't know that, I know, right, like Danny, and he was like openly calling likely being like, yeah, America is pretty racist. Like before it was like okay to be woke. He was like, yeah, this is a pretty racist country. So you know, loke King added to the list. We'll see if he's a sticky king. Oh we get to the end of the I'm gonna hazard a guest and say he is a sticky king. Okay. So Matilda gets a

bit older. She developed a lot of exceptional skills. She's very independent, she can cook for herself at a very young age. She's very good at reading by age like four, and then she starts going to the library every day and reads tons and tons of books. Then she gets a little older six and a half and becomes Marl Wilson. She wants to go to school, but her parents refused to send her to school, which I'm pretty sure is illegal. She then starts to retaliate against her dad. She pulls

a lot of hair based pranks. Basically switches some bottles around so that he accidentally bleaches his hair. Then she superglues his hat to his head. I didn't realize that they were all hair based pranks. Yeah, good hair pranks. Yeah, good hair pranks. But like, I don't think she really like pranks her mom, Like, I don't think she really pranks in it's mostly directed at her dad, which that

is maybe something worth discussing later on. But as far as like the child abuse that Matilda is the survivor of, it does mostly seem to be at the hand of her dad, where even though her mom is extremely neglectful and you know, not a great parent and not nice or affectionate towards Matilda and like certainly turning her head the other way, I mean, because she's aware that abuse is happening. Yes, for sure, she's enabling that situation to

go on, you know. But there were a few there were several scenes where like she's like, Okay, I'm leaving the house six year old Matilda to go play bingo if you want some chicken nuggets there in the microwave. Like she seems a bit more pleasant at least, so yeah, I guess Matilda spares her from hair based pranks. Hair

based pranks. Then one night Harry rips up Matilda's library book and forces her to watch TV, and then the TV explodes, and it seems like maybe it was just a coincidence or maybe she made the TV explode with her mind. We don't know, you think, is it a carry situation? Wow? This is I didn't even think of that, But this is kind of like the family friendly comedy

version of carry. Yeah yeah, But like fire Starter, there's a lot of like abused kids developed tell the Connecticut stories out there, you know, like it's a popular drop like if only Carrie had a stronger inherent sense of justice things, maybe things would have gone a little different, or at least there was like more sort of like hamming it up. You know, there's just more hamming it up and carry pratfalls. You know, we've always said about

Carrie here at the balls not sticky enough. I was just gonna say the main problem with Carrie not enough stickiness. I don't know, it gets pretty sticky. It sounds like it's not not a sticky movie, but just not quite where we needed to be. I mean, she gets blood dumped on her. That's that's pretty sticky. That's pretty stick Could be stickier though, could be? Could be That's my impression of a Hollywood executive justifying their presence. I don't know.

So we think it's sticky enough, maybe we should reshoot it. That's me working at Marvel. Sticky enough, I don't know anyways. That would be one million dollars please, Yeah, I think I think this ending is really touching, but it would be better if she could get gacked, you know, just slime. What if everyone got just climbed at the end of the Venger's endgame. I'm just spitballing here. Would be one million dollars. Oh goodness, I might actually go see those movies, right.

I feel like I would be way more engaged in the lore if they just slimbed characters at moments that I was supposed to be paying attention, and then I'm like, oh, I'm back, you know, yeah, I'm in I mean, Spider Man is is pretty sticky, so Spider Man also sticky. It works for me, that's why. Maybe that's why we're drawn to the Spider Man movies over the other ones. Or is it because of Alfred Molina? Is dot com something to Alfred Molina could have been Harry Wormwood. He

could have been Harry Wormwood. Dan Indvida doesn't a fantastic job, but I could also picture Alfred Billion in that role. At the very least, Alfred should be doing the voice her. So it's a separate voice, then it's less confusing. Yeah, absolutely, Okay. So the next day, Agatha trunch Bowl played by Pam Ferris. She's the principle of Cruncham Hall Elementary School. She buys a car from Harry Wormwood and she also tells him about all the disciplinary actions she takes against children at

her school. So, based on this, Harry decides to send Matilda to this school that looks like a prison for children. Yes, exactly. So Matilda goes to her first day of school, where she meets a new friend, Lavender, and where she watches Principal trunch Bowl terrorize the small children, including flinging a tiny adorable little girl around by her pigtails and then tossing her over a fence. The practical effects in this movie are very impressive and make me miss practical effects.

Although it sounds like the actor who played Miss trunch Bull got extremely injured. She got injured the climactic scene. Yes, and I think that little girl not as badly injured as you might know. She got injured she like cut her finger on something, so it was not good, but that was like white. She got flug over it. Apparently it required stitches, so it wasn't like it wasn't a huge deal, but it wasn't like a no big deal kind of thing. Okay, so maybe maybe I'll think on that.

Apparently too, it was like the little girl who actually did all ended up doing all the stunts because they had somebody there to do stunts for her. And one thing I was reading was talking about how she loved like she was nine and like being in that harness and getting like flung around was so much fun that she was like, no, I'll do I'll I'll do my

own stunts. That's a regular tom cruise. Absolutely Okay. So then Matilda meets her teacher, Miss Honey played by Mbeth David's, who is basically wearing a burlap sack because she's one of the good guys and she is very sweet and nice. Huge juxtaposition against trunch Bowl. Miss Honey sees how brilliant Matilda is. For example, Matilda can multiply big numbers in her head and she's like, Wow, this student is brilliant.

She goes to principal trunch Bowl and to Matilda's family to advocate for her education, but they don't want to hear about it. Then we get the cake scene where trunch Bowl makes a student named Bruce bog Trotter eat an entire chocolate cake while the whole school watches and uh, we'll talk about that my nightmare night. And I was like, God, yeah, well we'll We'll just have to unpack that later, Team Brucie,

I know. Then trunch Bowl comes into Matilda's class, terrorizes the students as usual, and then Matilda seems to use telekinesis to fling a newt onto her then tries to demonstrate these telekinetic powers to Miss Honey, but they don't work when she's put on the spot. Then Miss Honey invites Matilda over to her house and tells this story about how her parents died when she was young and she was raised by her aunt, who is big twist,

trunch bowl. I didn't see that coming, I treatly did it. Really, that's so interesting, I think because I had seen this movie so much as a kid, I'm like, oh, the big reveal, um, But like, that's pretty interesting that you didn't see it coming, Jamie, We'll have to like talk. We're about sort of untrench double well not much as foreshadowed.

There is like some voice over where Danny DeVito is like, Miss Honey Harbor's this dark secret, but she doesn't let it affect her love of teaching or something like that. I just thought that she had been a student of Miss trench Bulls, Like I thought that they was clear that they knew each other, but I didn't. I didn't pick up on the family connection. So that was a

very effective whist for me. That makes a lot of sense because there is that one moment where I think Miss Honey goes to like trench Bull's office when she's like, I think Matilda might be happier in an older class, and like they're talking at that point and like trench Poles being like creepily familiar calling her like yeah, like gen and yeah, right, so that was like that was always what I thought kind of gave it away, but again, like I can't put myself in the position of like

just seeing it for the first time. Now, so that's really interesting, Like yeah cool. So yeah, so we get that reveal, and then we also learn that like trunch Bull now lives in Miss Honey's childhood home and Miss Honey lives in this little cottage now, and then they go to trunch Bull's house when she's not there to take back Miss Honey's childhood treasures, particularly a doll of hers Lissie doll Um, which I learned is the first

name of Roll Doll's widow. Let's see is her name. Yeah, we also have to talk about Roll Doll because he's got there's there's a ton of shift on there, semitic yea. His his friends, even the way his friends described him made me think he was like a man baby edge lord. Like you read things that people, Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, Roll was like my best friend for forty years, but

he was terrible. You know, you're like, what like listening to it, or like reading accounts of people who knew him, you're just like, Wow, I'm so glad that he wasn't alive when the Internet existed, like he would have been at Nightmare. Imagine the would have sent god, Oh my God. The opposite of Danny Devita's Twitter presence would be World

Doll's Twitter presence. So then Trench Bowl comes back home when Miss Honey and Matilda are still there, and then there's this big there's this big game of like cat and mouse where she's chasing them around, and then Matilda and Miss Honey finally escape. Matilda starts to then practice her telekinesis powers, and she gets really good at them, So one night she goes back to Trench Bull's house and uses her powers to rescue Miss Honey's doll and

to terrorize trench Bowl. But then trench Bull figures out that it was Matilda who did this because she finds her hair ribbon that she left behind. So then the next day at school, trench Bull tries to punish Matilda, but she again uses her powers to make Trench both think that Miss Honey's dead dad's go is haunting her dead dad, who Trunch bowl. Might have murdered, yes, might have murdered, almost certainly murdered. Probably did murder. Or it

was an owl? Maybe? Okay, the staircase. We're back, We're back. Wow, Oh my gosh. Kaylin and I used to talk about the staircase on Matrian episodes for I forget why we originally started doing it. But the owl theory not the first time the owl theory has been explored on this show. And absolutely, absolutely, you know, miss trunch Ball deserves a fair trial. We shouldn't use her queerness against her. Yeah, exactly could have been an owl? Could have been an owl,

would have been okay. So Matilda is terrorizing her, and then Matilda and the other students run trunch Bull out of the school, out of the town. She's never seen or heard from again, and so Miss Honey moves back into her childhood home, Matilda visits her often, and then Miss Honey adopts Matilda when her parents announced that they're moving to Guam, and Matilda's like, well, I don't want to go. I want to stay here with Miss Honey here. I already have the adoption papers. All you have to

do is sign them. So her parents are like sounds good to me. And then they leave and then Matilda and Miss Honey live happily ever after together as a loving family, and that is the end of the movie. Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and we're back. Wo where shall we start? There are so many places. Well, I kind of wanted to just I like to look at the film as like,

what's what are his intentions? What is it doing? Since so many children's movies have some sort of like moral moral at the end of the story kind of thing. For me, I think as far as like execution, there's things to be discussed, but as far as intention, it seems to me that the message of this movie is like the celebration of a little girl reading and learning and getting an education and how important that is, and how I think that's generally a really positive thing to

have in a children's movie. It's a really great thing for little girls to see watching this movie, for little kids of all genders to see. I bet a lot of children saw themselves in Matilda and like appreciated her thirst for learning. So that is obviously something that's largely at play in this movie. There's some I guess baggage that comes with that, where there's like weird like kind of classism and elitisms stuff tied to this, which we

can get into. But as far as like what the movie I think is trying to do, I appreciated the efforts. And I almost wish that I had grown up more with this movie and did watch it more as a kid, because I think I would have benefited from the message of, like, it's really important for little girls to learn and have a thirst for knowledge and a curiosity about the world.

I totally agree. I feel like Matilda and Harriet the Spy kind of go together in my head of like movies that have this inherent message that encouraged young kids in the nineties, uh, particularly girls, to trust their instincts to be curious too, and and that there is a purpose and meaning to like seeking knowledge and not taking you know, adults at their word, and and just a lot. I I totally agree that this movie seems to come

from a very good place. And in the process, I mean like we're going to inevitably talk about uses, tropes and stereotyping to get to the good place it's trying

to get to. I feel we have. It's kind of a rare movie in that regard where I don't feel completely like as confident in most children's media that it has such a strong core message, which makes it like, uh interesting and frustrating that it uses the tropes that it does to accomplish a good message, because it ends up, you know, kind of weighing it down in this interesting way.

But I still like, I can't in good faith like write this movie off entirely, and don't think I ever could, because it's so uh it is coming from this this very beautiful, encouraging place that I think, you know, Jesse, you are alluding to this earlier like that there's still not a out of movies that have core messages like this that are that are this popular in this memorable although apparently not in that I didn't realize this movie

like flopped at the box office. I always assumed it was a huge hit, but it I guess it's like it was in its VHS era that it like became huge because I viewed this as like a ridiculously successful movie, which I guess it wasn't. Yeah, that's what was really surprising. Um, you know, I think that it was much more successful on a critical level perhaps and like at a box

office level. Um, but but just you know, coming into it, what you're both are saying like uh, and I think Harriet the Spy is and also a really good example of this. It's also it's not just like you don't like trust your instincts and things like that, but it's also like you are the author, like you you have control in your world, you have autonomy, Like I think

they're there. I mean, I don't think that even for stories that you know, are geared towards like older women or older like people of like that aren't just male, like I don't think there are a lot of stories that sort of give that same sort of message of autonomy,

like both in Harry the Spy in and Matilda. You know, it's sort of like these young girls who are in this position that you know, things are going on that affect them that they don't have control over, but we still see them taking steps and taking measures and like

being active. And that's a little bit the thing of like when Harry yells at Matilda sort of like when a person is bad, you know, instead of saying like when a parent or when an adult is bad, and like in giving Matilda that key of sort of saying when a person is bad, he allows her to have that autonomy of sort of saying like, oh, okay, well

I can then make choices. I don't have to be just passive and have things happen to me in this story, you know, like so often, you know, you guys talk about it on the show all the time, you know. We we sort of get these protagonists that like things happened to them, and then another thing happens to them, and then another thing happens to them, but they're not really choosing at any point in time. And yet here

we have this story of this young girl. You know, we see her from literally like being born up into the age of like six and a half, um, you know, and being very very active. And I think so much of that too, you know, in terms of like how this adaptation was done, has to really do with the fact that there were like a lot of women, a lot of parents, a lot of people involved. That like

we're invested in young women. That sounds like a weird way of putting it, but like both Danny DeVito and Real Pearlman, as well as Robin Spee Cord and Nicholas Kazan, who were the screen the couple who wrote the screenplay, Zoe Kazane's parents. I didn't realize. Yeah, both of both of those like both of those couples came to the book through their daughters. And I think that that like shows in the way that the film it did get adapted and the choices that were made, you know, the

things that were changed. There were a lot of male characters that are in the book that don't appear in the movie. Like the majority of the cast is female. You know. It is really like this story that is like very much focused on empowering Matilda, you know, within

her world. And I think that that is because you know, like I said, you know, they're coming to this story the book came out I think at the end of the eighties eight nine, you know, so they're coming to as parents themselves, being like, oh, you know, my daughters can see themselves in this book, you know, how do we recreate that? And Robin see Court is, as you probably with No. Two, was like super involved in A

Little Women just before this as an adaptation. So it's like it's also you know a lot of like the feminist stuff that happened in The Little Women, you know, like that's also a little bit of her influence in there, you know, Like so I think that that's like kind of why the story ends up getting crafted that way. Mar Wilson's mom also was like a really big driving force and getting this movie made. Um because when you're a kid actor, of course, you know, it's like you

have your agent and then you know your parents. Hopefully you're making decisions that are in your best interest. And Mara was starting to become like had been in a couple of things and was starting to like become famous or more famous as a child performer. And they were being sent tons and tons of scripts all the time,

you know, for these like cute little girl parts. Um. But Susie Wilson, her mom had Red Matilda with all of her kids, was a huge proponent of like reading the book, even like at like Mara's school, like in

the library to kids and stuff like that. Um. So when this script came up, you know, it was like mar Wilson I think described as or like her mom like left on it was like this one, you know, and was like very present on set and the films dedicated to her because Unfortunately she passed away shortly after it was in prosproduction, so like she had just like such a huge effect, um, and yet she's not necessarily one of the credited names that we think of in

in terms of this film. But yeah, you know, and I think that like because like, you know, as a working artist, like I think a lot about the intention that goes into things when we're making things, right, Like filmmaking is is such a team sport, and I think so often, you know, we're sort of like especially since sort of like this era of like at war directors and like it's all about sort of like the person who's like got that director credit and who's at the

head of it. But so often I think that there's like all these other influences that are coming into that story that are important to acknowledge, because we don't make things in a vacuum, right, So it's it's just as much about the who's introducing the idea to who are you talking about the idea with? You know, who are you who's helping you with like the design of the film,

Who's you know, doing all these sort of things. Yeah, but yeah, I think I think that's sort of like Lad a pretty good groundwork for the for how the film turns out. And by all the accounts I read about the production, it seemed like everyone had a ball. Danny DeVito was an angel, good and responsible director, right, Yeah, and the kids had fun and the adult actors had fun, and yeah that it was like a very pleasant experience

for everyone involved as far as I could tell. Yeah, even like Jamie you mentioned pamp Ferris, who played Agatha trench Bowl, even though she had gotten injured and doing a couple of the stunts and things like that, Like she I was watching an interview which she was talking about it, and she was like, you know, I was like trying to stay away from the kids, and I was trying to like not have fun because it was like I was supposed to be there. It's like the

trench Bowl in the superintimidating presence. And she was like after two or three days, like she's like, the kids would come up to me and put their like little hands in mind and I couldn't help it, like you know, would just be like totally run over and totally sweet, and like pam Feris is such a a far cry away from like the Trench Bowl it's really it's really quite funny having seen her in other work and being like, oh my god, I can't believe that's the same person.

I know. I forgot that she was on Marge as well in the Harry Potter series because I feel like she we only encounter her as someone who like she's very typecast as villainous, and then yeah, we might have watched the same the same interview because I was just like, she's so sweet, Like what a her She was in Called the Midwife too, She plays us none in that and Called the Midwife is you know whatever, like it's about sisters, religious sisters who are midwives in like London

around the Second World War, I think, and like, you know, spoiler alert, I guess for Called the Midwife fans, but like when her character dies on Call the Midwife, like there's people who've written entire blogs about like how crush they were about that, Like you know she is, like she is this like British character actor who's just like

so beloved in so many ways. But I feel like you're in North America, were like trunch Ball, Like where do you think she knows Molina another British character actor. I want to say. I want to say, yes, yes. I wonder if they have any like overlap. Maybe they met at the theater. Who knows, could be very possible because Pam Fares has done a lot of theater. It's true.

I love the idea of Pam Farris, like trying to go method on set and then like that lasting for a couple of days and then she was just like so one over by all the sweet kids and she's like, well, never mind, going method is actually an incredible waste of time. Usually yeah, yeah, exactly, Like she's not leaving dead rats for like the crew to find or anything. She's just like, yeah, like they're these kids are smart, they can they can act,

but that's why they're here. Um, there was a little okay, So one of the first things that jumped out to me, which is like partially based on personal experience, it's like the concept of whatever, the concept of genius is fake, and that I always think is such an interesting I almost wish that it had been phrase a little different because I think that it's phrased that way in service

of saying Matilda is special. But what makes her special isn't the fact that she's a genius what makes her special is that she is compassionate and uses uses her natural abilities to help other people and to pursue justice. I feel like that, but I don't know that. I feel like I just have mensa PTSD, and so I'm just like, no, not that word genius with children. It's

that's a dark road to go down. Absolutely. And Also that joke that Harry Wormwood makes about Moby Dick, I was like, that was the there are a few moments where were like, oh my gosh, that is such a nineties children's movie moment where he like kind of implied like he thinks that Moby Dick is about sex or something like what iconic bizarre children's joke from the nineties. No. Absolutely,

Uh well, I mean we can talk about it. I mean I think it's interesting to sort of look at, you know, bringing up the idea of genius, bringing up sort of like the idea of exceptionalism, and how like that comes into like the class conversation that we could

have in Matilda. Because I also, as much as I love and that's not even like too strong a word, as much as I love like Harry and Zenia Wormwood, like, despite their horrible nous are so like spot on the way that they're characterized is like, you know, we get that sort of first line at the very beginning where it's like they live in a nice neighborhood, they have

very nice things. They're not very nice people. You know, we're set up to sort of understand them as being villainous based on their values, and when we take a look at what those values are, you know, they love money, they love consumerism, they love TV, sticky stuff, they love sticky stuff, they like, they eat, they eat micro We have dinners in front of the TV every night, like

that's their family time, you know. And I feel like characterizing this like also the fact that like Harry Warmwood is like I used car salesman who's like buying and selling like stolen cars. Um. You know, I feel like if they were poor, then they'd be considered white trash,

you know. And I think that like I'm I'm not entirely sure what we're supposed to take away from that, you know, because and also that characterization of white trash is like garbage, and and you know, I hope that I don't offend anybody but using that term, but like I know what you mean, but like it's sort of like this idea that even though they're you know, they have achieved a certain level of like status and wealth, they're lacking middle class of values which would make them

part of like the in group of their peers, like you know, no other homes even in that neighborhood. Like when they're doing like the shot of like the car pulling and look like their home. You know, they've got like lawn ornaments and it's like very retro looking. You know. So even as the villains though they're they're placed a sort of like very outside of their peer group to say, like or like when they go to the fancy restaurant too, you know, and there's all sorts of buffoonery that kind

of goes along, you know, and zinnias. They're going in like take your hat off, Like we're in a nice place, take your hat off. You know. There's this desire to be acceptable, but they perpetually miss the mark and talking about sort of like what middle class values mean in like this sort of sense, it's like hard working, self disciplined, thrift nous like honesty, white, able bodied Protestant, like respectable conformism, patriotism. Yeah,

exactly patriotism. You know, they're fleeing to Guam, but the Guam is a U S territory. The FBI can get you there, like but like the yeah, like I feel like they don't know that, and like the reason that this matters, I think in the film comes back to sort of this idea of like why, you know, why are we calling Mattila a genius? Like why are we

putting that out there? Like is because there's like certain like social markers, certain cues that I think we're setting up from the very beginning about like who you should like and why you should like them, and you shouldn't like the warm words because they chafe against middle class values before we even know that they are terrible people,

right you know what I mean? Yeah, there's I was a little I feel like there's some dissonance with the way the Wormwoods are characterized because on one hand, you know that there villainous because they're selfish and they neglect and abuse their daughter, and Harry is very unethical in the way that he conducts his business and and of like part of his villainy there is that he is not like taking from the rich, he's taking from people

who have less money than it. He's exploiting exactly. And so there's all these things that, like us watching this movie are like, yes, clear signals, clear markers that he's a villain. But then there's this other component that kind of comes into this classism elitist thing, and it's like kind of education based where the movie subscribes to this thing where people who are highly educated and who have

a job that requires a lot of education equals good. Um. This is most clearly demonstrated with miss Honey with her kind of job and position and her just sort of valuing getting in education, getting in higher education. She even has this little monologue where she's like, you know, if you were to get sick, the doctor you go to would have gone to college. If you get sued for selling a faulty car, the lawyer you hire would have

gone to college. A k A like quote unquote important people with quote unquote important jobs go to college versus people who don't go to college and who have a job that does not require college education equals bad according to the movie, such as Matilda's parents, Like again, her dad is like a car salesman who says he didn't go to college. Her mother plays bingo all day. She

says she didn't go to college. Um, there's the lunch lady who is presented in such a way, and she has such a small part in the movie, but she's presented in such a way that like the movie wants you to think she's grotesque because she's working class person, working class older woman. Like, yeah, and this movie has an issue with older women. That will get to write the exception here is miss trunch Bull, who would have

to be highly educated to be a school principle. But in theory, I don't understand how she takes over cruncham Hall, Like I think that that's like specifically vague, like, but because she the way she conducts her professional life, she doesn't seem to care about education. She does not even though she's a principal of the school. She's more concerned about abusing children and terrorizing children then she is about

children having an education. So the movie subscribed to this thing where it's like if you see the value in education, which like kind of in theory or just like inherently like obviously education is good in learning things is good, but this idea that like you have to go to college to be worth anything is classist and elitist and and and it would be somewhat not completely at all, but it would be a somewhat of a different discussion

if the concept of higher education weren't inherently tied to money, right, and tied to class and and there are all these I mean well documented, we can't possibly cover them all here, but issues with access to higher education and who it's available to versus who it isn't And so yeah, I kind of like it's so cooked into the story that I can't I couldn't really think of a way to

fully remove it. By I thought it was like, it's such an important choice in terms of the movie working where I feel like a lot of the classism and elitism could have been removed from me if that idea was just sort of simplified to like in curiosity about the world around totally. But because they take get a step further and say that if you do not pursue higher education or if you're not highly educated, you must

be an incurious villain that like like evil, right, abusive, etcetera. Absolutely, which it would have satisfied me if the Wormwood parents were just incurious people. But it isn't it. It's tied to class and it's tied to I think it's going back to what you were saying just about how they're kind of characterized as visually as like quote unquote white trash.

It seems like their intellectual in curiosity is tied to class, it's tied to their appearance, and it's saying people like this, you know, people like this aren't worth as much as

people like you know, miss Honey. And I think the visual language of the film can't be you know, overlooked because it is it is a children's film, you know, so there is like a lot of simplification of the narrative that ends up being transmitted on a visual level, because you know, it's sometimes it's easier to communicate those ideas, is of like you know, this is you know good and this is bad. That's also you know, like a in Kately you can probably speak to this from like

a screenwriting level. You know, you have to have tension in script, you have to have like the white hat and the black hat. You know. Like but I think the way that people are stylized in this film, you know, and even just to talk about fatness a little bit which which I'm sure we'll get to, but yeah, it's relying on really really tired tropes, you know, like and we made the joke sort of about like, you know, where his pages the whole movie she's wearing essentially like

a potato sack um. You know. In the book, there's a lot more context given around that, about the fact that like Ms. Trench Puple is like garnishing her wages and that she's actually quite poor and that's why she's living in a farmer's shed. You know. The cottage that we see in the film is quite lovely, like I would love to live in that little cottage, full on

like Instagram cottage, like yeah, you know, it's gorgeous. Um. But like in the book, she's living in a farmer's shed for a dollar a week or like a hound a week, because of course she works at trench Ball School, so trench Ball controls how much money she gets paid, and so she's you know, so there's like there is like a you know, if her parents was very plain in terms of like the book, it was, you know, it was kind of explained by that, you know, by

the fact that she didn't have access to fund where we don't get that context in the film. So Miss Honey is just presented as like this paradigm of like goodness, and it's like she's well educated, she comes from an

affluent background. You know, she's soft spoken, she's feminine, she's you know, and and and you know, this isn't not not to dismiss that character, because I think Miss Honey, as we talked about a little bit earlier, you know, plays this really important role you know, in her liberation is part of Matilda's story as well. Um, and also the way that she relates her own experiences with trauma and abuse to Matilda. I think it is very critical

to helping Matilda. But yeah, like we're sort of you know that moment where um, she's sitting in the Warmon's living room and she's giving them that that speech about education, and they you know, like I think Zenia has like curlers in and like Harry's like he's trying to redye his hair after it's been bleached and they're watching a fight on t you know what. It was iconic, but

you know, like there's this very stark contrast. Again, she's like a thing that's out of place right in the Wormwood setting the same way that like, Matilda is out of place in that setting, but it's I think that it's made less stark because of of who Misshoney is. Yeah, and there's a line of dialogue from Matilda's mom that I feel like could effectively transition us into the conversation about appearance and fatness and femininity and and that kind of stuff, where her mom says, a girl does not

get anywhere by acting intelligent. You cho those books, she's talking to, Miss Honey, You chose books. I chose looks. So let's talk about the way people look and like. And as Zennia is saying that though we're supposed to be laughing because we can see how Zenia looks, you know, and like. And there's a couple of moments like that

in the film specifically about looks like. There's another line trunch Bull says at one point, you know, like I can take a joke as well as the next fat person from where we're supposed to be, where we're we're supposed to be laughing at the character and not with them specifically, right, Yeah, I mean, Caitlin, you were alluding to this a couple of minutes ago, but how or maybe maybe as you just how appearance is so emphasized in children's media because of the audience and how like

it these very deliberate choices really make a big difference in just forming children's views of the world. And so you can see and really all of roll dolls work. And just an aside, their Roldal not just a deeply unpleasant person, but a deeply anti Semitic person, very pro vaccines, So I guess that's good, but certainly very like but also like hugely misogynistic as well, like uh, incredibly racist.

Like if we're going to dive into roldlf for for a moment, like, yeah, I think we should because it's like, I mean, his views are subtly accessible here, I think absolutely, and and like and I think that it's important context to like have this information in terms of even looking at like other of his works that have been adapted, you know, because he's looked at us being this really beloved children's author, you know, like he's on all these

lists of like you know, most beloved UK children's authors of all time, you know, like most beloved this and that and the other thing. And yet yeah, he's a highly unpleasant person, incredibly anti semitic, incredibly misogynist. He also wrote pornographic books for adults, whoa I did not know this? Yeah,

did you even know? That's like I feel like I remember I learned that when I was a teenager, and I was like wow, yeah, him and Shel Silverstein were like writing making mint, like writing like books for kids, and but also writing a lot of like pornographic books for atuts. Interesting. Yeah, and there's nothing with writing pornography, like right now, you know, like there's nothing writing wrong with writing erotica. It's a good way of expressing your

creativity and horny nous. But um, I write it via text message to people all the time. You know what text messages are kind of like the new one pages or like single sheets sexting what is a sext but a logline for a film it is, It's like an elevator pitch. It's like, hey, these out yeah, you know, and and and like you know, people used to write love letters. Sex thing is just like today's love letter,

you know. But like yeah, just just the fact that like even people who have read his like erotica are like, yeah, like it's this is very misogynistic. I mean, that's a good that's a good indicator because there's a lot of you know, and his I mean, his racism like is present in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory repeatedly, like the characters of the Upa Lumpas are deeply rooted in his

own racism. And there's I think that other examples in his work were it's so as we're talking about this, it reminds me of the conversation that was taking place around Dr seuss work last year as well, where it's like there are all of these men, like men who wrote children's books and are deeply influential and there and I mean and also not men, because we can bring J. K. Rowling into that conversation as well, where you know, on a closer look, not only where their politics got awful

and their prejudices god awful, it is also present in their work in ways that it are like hard to kind of grapple with. Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's been quite as bit a conversation around role Dal. I don't know why that is. Yeah, maybe because he's dead,

I don't know. I mean, and it's very interesting to look at because I think that like oftentimes, when you know, when we talked to about like yeah, like like rolled as a really excellent example, we haven't really he hasn't really had like his reckoning sort of, I guess in

terms of like social media. But I think it's because a lot of people don't really know, I guess about his anti semitism and like misogyny and racism or like, you know, it always comes back to this thing, you know when I talk about this a lot, because oftentimes people will be like, as like an indigoud person, people will be like, oh, yeah, well it was okay that we like treated Indians like we did at such and such a time, because you know, that was just the culture.

And unfortunately that's always patently wrong. You know, like when there is discrimination and prejudice and bigotry, you know that is happening at any point in time. It's not so much that that was the culture as the powers that be within the culture, like us as individuals, were willing to permit it because it wasn't going to lose as

social capital. You know, we knew, we knew when like Song of the South came out in the forties that it was incredibly racist film, you know, but we weren't we as in like white and white passing people weren't willing to get up in arms enough about it until it was like Disney plus, like it was like, oh, and you know, we're going to keep this one in the Disney vault. And then people were like, oh, yeah,

that was a really racist filment. Was like, but we knew that at the time, you know, we we know, we know that kind of stuff at time, and we and we still sort of like let it go anyway, you know. And I think that we have to sort of understand it much more in a human level as opposed to sort of being like, oh, well that was just okay at the time. It's like, no, we made it okay, you know, and the same thing was rolled out. I feel like there are people, you know, as much

as like what he said. It's horrendous and I don't want to repeat something anti semitic marks that he made, you know, here, I think there were a lot of people who probably agreed with him, or at least like didn't disagree strongly, you know, or we're just complicit. I mean, yeah, intolerance has been tolerated for much of I mean, people called out D W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation in nineteen fifteen for being racist when it was coming out. Yeah, but like not enough people took him to task, and

then he just kept making movies. And yeah, so I think that I mean, what what what you just said that's so beautifully of inherently tying it to social capital does seem to be the big thing where it's like, yeah, people are not like people didn't just wake up to the injustices of the world five or six years ago, which I feel like is sometimes how it's characterized. Obviously that's not true. But now, I mean, at least at present in some cases, still not all cases, there is

a risk of losing social capital if you are intolerant publicly. Yeah. Yeah, so people who perhaps in another setting would have been apathetic or ambiguous, you know, do feel perhaps a little bit more pushed to at least not comment or or or or to do so like in a in a very like in a way that's not going to lose some social capital. And like I'm not trying to like point any fingers with that, Like I said, like, I think that it's important that we understand it on a

human level and that also means like for ourselves. Um, you know, even though I grew up knowing that like my grandmother was Magma, I was also taught like some pretty horrendous shitty stuff about Native people through like the education system. And I definitely have like funked up in racist when racism like is applicable like to other groups and other situations that I am not like directly a part of, like, but like you take responsibility for that and then you try and do the best that you can.

But this podcast is not about me. Let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. The last thing I wanted to say about Role Doll and then let's get the funk out of Rolled doll Land because it is so depressing. There the last thing, and I think this ties to social capital and capital capital is I didn't This news went right over my head. But in December of Roll Dolls Family only, slash Estate issued an apology

for his anti Semitic comments. I think it's very interesting that they only chose to like thirty years after it happened. First of all, waited thirty years, which many I mean, it sounds like there were many Jewish groups that said, like, okay, cool, but why the thirty years And what I think that that is inherently tied to is the conversation that was taking a place around Dr Seuss around that same time.

There is kind of I mean, and while I want to believe, and I have no reason to not believe that Roll Dolls descendants do not hold the anti Semitic feelings that their grandfather did, it doesn't feel it comes off as very disingenuous because it feels like damage control because the Roll Doll estate received reportedly potentially as much as one billion dollars from Netflix to license his catalog to adapt over the next you know, decade or or

whatever it is. So it's you know, it's it's like, okay, that is Situations like that are so are so frustrating because of course, an acknowledgement of the inherent harm that those comments made towards the Jewish community like that absolutely is worth saying. But it doesn't feel like it's being

done for the right reasons at all. It sounds like it's to preserve the Estates capital and I feel like we're seeing a lot of that right now, and I don't It's it's like I don't know what alternative to suggest, Like I'm not unhappy that the estate is acknowledging it, but it just doesn't. And also I was like, but what about the misogyny and the racism not that. No, no, we're not gonna we're not gonna talk about that, Jamie, like one issue at a time. Well, we'll circle back

until we get threatened for something else. And no, and and and you're you're totally right, you know what, You're

totally right. And it's sort of like, actually, like looking at what this film is about and about having a sense of justice, and how about like standing up for what you believe in and sending up for people you care about on the one hand, and then on the other hand, being a total and absolute corporate chill like and I mean, you know, allegedly allegedly allegedly, I guess, like I don't have any kind of association with adult family. I'm sure they're all lovely, you know, we're not trying

to tire them all with the same cancel of the dolls. No, no, but yeah, but it's it's I think that like I would encourage people to be very to be very skeptical when these kind of moves happen because of what's going on behind it, you know, and like they're getting reportedly a billion dollars from Netflix, but like Roldal also already came from a very affluent family. They have had this like very successful publishing arm you know, of his estate

as well. It's also like a billion dollars going to people who are not or either you know, like like that's the thing too with like these these literary adaptations, like like something to keep in mind as well, is that, like, oh, yeah, I know, it's nice that like the books that we love as children are being adapted and things like that. But like if it's just like more money going into line the pockets of people who are already wealthy, why

not go to an independent bookstore? Like why not take a chance on like a first time author, you know, of color? Why? Right? Why why invest so much money in adapting books by a misogynist, racist, anti semi and instead invest that like not and this isn't the point, but like that have also been at that have already been already been adapted to death. Are you, like, do you really think you're going to make a better Matilda than this? You probably not like that. So sorry, sorry

to derail the conversation around um visual representations. I just think that, yeah, that Royal Doll's background is important to prejudices are important to understand and leading with that discussion, right, so let's talk about yeah, because his I mean, his misogyny. Although I mean, to be fair, I don't think I read this book. I read a few other Royal Dolls books as a kid, but I don't think I did read Matilda. So I'm not sure how much of this is cannon to the book and adapted from that, or

if it's more cinematic like adaptation choices. But what we see here similar to the like higher education people equals good, people who have not gone to college equals bad. We have a and this is worth unpacking because I'm gonna kind of probably oversimplify this here just to start with, but there's this idea of like women and like female presenting characters with more feminine features slash like who more

closely adhere to Western beauty standard thin women. I mean, then like thinness is virtue equals nice and good, which again is embodied in the Miss Honey character predominantly, and then women with more masculine features slash women who don't adhere to Western beauty standards equals mean evil, bad, embodied by principal trench Bowl. Um. I think there's also a conversation to be had about how that character is possibly

another example of a queer coded villain. Yeah yeah, so yeah, yeah, I mean, I know, butches that in the right light, you're like full trunch bowl. I would even argue that the name trunch Bowl is like homophobic, like you know what, like come on, like, how are some slack god? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, no, so trunch trunch Bull is definitely a queer coded villain. I mean, whatever with Gator, But like honestly, you see the trench Ball and you're like, Okay, you know, I

know what's going on. And what's so sad about that in so many ways is the fact that, like one, this idea of creating queer villains is not a new idea, you know, like this is like Disney playbook, you know, this is something that we've been doing in popular media

for a really really long time. Um. And I think that like in the unfortunate case of Miss trench Ball, and again, like I feel like I'm in this episode I'm coming across like I sympathize with the villains a lot in this piece, and I really like, maybe that's like some of my own issues and empathy or whatever, but like, I really feel bad in some ways for the way that like miss trench Balls represented because I think that she's mothered not only in the masculinity of

her body, so to say things like they intentionally darkened Pam Ferris is like mustache as an example, you know, when they put her in this very boxy outfit and they give her like a false end of her nose to make her nose more prominent, and they did all these things to make to make her appear more masculine on purpose, and like that, plus her size sort of like takes her out of this realm of femininity and like her in her kind of interest too, as far

as like Olympic shot pudding and like right, which is like extremely fucking cool. Yeah yeah, And if you look at the athletes that perform in those those uh that

perform that perform it's not a performance. If you look at the athletes that compete in those categories, they're built like a brickshit house because they have to be like if you're gonna like pick up a super heavy weight and like hurl it across, you're not going to be built like a gymnast is going to be, you know, very petite and like you don't have a ballet ballerina's body. But that's like inherent to the sport. It's like so

exactly right, you know. And and you know, one thing that I don't I don't feel like we talked about enough in terms of like body pot sittivity and things like that is the fact that like different bodies are good at different things, you know. And and miss French Dooble is like a former athlete, Like it makes sense that she looks the way that she looks, and yet that's used to demonize her in such a poignant sort of way. And like part of that is the way

that like fatness is represented in this film. And to talk a little bit about that as like, because I think Trenchable is like not only the like antithesis of Misshani in terms of like you know, good and evil, it's like even just like their characteristics, you know, principle is large and expansive and loud and mascula and all these sort of different things and she hates children, you know, but I think specifically because of her fatness, Like it's

worth noting the way that in our culture fatness tends to be portrayed and also tends to like affect gender. So what I mean by that, And you know, looking specifically at this film, fatness tends to either for men,

tends to feminize them. You know, we've seen that in like expressions like oh you've gotten man boobs or whatever, So a fat man is looked at as being more vulnerable, more feminine, we will, you know, and we see that a little bit in the way that like it's not I think a coincidence that the kid that trench Bill picks on is a fat kid. You know. That's like

a whole other conversation, you know. Whereas like I think for women, and like, even though I am non binary, I was raised or I was like assigned female at birth, there's a lot of ways in which like being fat and being assigned female at birth or presumed female um or being female um ends up removing you a little

bit from femininity, or at least it used to. Like to give an example, there was this ad campaign that was really very controversial, A couple of years ago in the States and encamp and that was supposed to be targeting like childhood obesity, and it was like, it's really hard to be a little girl when you aren't And it was a picture of a of a girl who was fat, and like that was like the line that was like over her fat body was like, it's hard to be a little girl when you're not and when

you're not little, when you're not little, that was the the implication, and for a long time that was true. Like, for example, when I was growing up, like we didn't shop at the mall or anything like we you know, we relied on like thrift stores and and like hand me dns and stuff because we were like lower middle class.

And I used to like wear my dad's like some of my dad's old clothes and stuff to school because anything that was like handed down that was sort of girly or anything that we like my mom got that was like sort of like what we're girly like styles and sighs, like her sighs so small for somebody that

was like it would have never fit my body. So automatically, you know, you're getting made fun of at school because like one you're fat, but also like you're wearing your dad's clothes to school because like literally there weren't clothes to fit you. And I think that like there are some more like size inclusive brands and things like that. And that's why, like when we're talking about fat liberation, like clothing does play a part in that, because you

have to wear clothes in society. Um, Unfortunately, we live in a society, yeah exactly, and people are going to judge a twelve year old wearing like their middle aged dads, like business casual clothes a lot harsher, you know than they are like another twelve year old that's like fitting in with like what people are wearing. So uh, you know, and it used to be the same, I mean, and I still think it is largely the same. Unfortunately for

folks you know, who are my size and larger. You know, there's still is very few choices that we have when it comes to clothing and and things like that. Um, and so there is this like if you can't find gender affirming clothing, then like already your gender identity and how you affirm that is like sort of skewed, you know, in a way. And I think with trunch ball as well, Like she's not dainty, she's not like she doesn't have these traditionally feminine qualities, a lot of which are related

to size. You know, when we talk about fat phobia, you know, it's important to recognize like the gendered elements of that and as well as like the racial elements of that. A lot of fat phobia is anchored in racism. You know, it's anchored in this idea that like white virginal like you know, what is it, like Anglo Saxon Protestant like bodies were supposed to look a certain way, and that became the ideal that people in society, women

specifically were expected to adhere to. Jamie. You Um. A recent episode of ac cast dove into that as far as like diet culture and beauty standards and body size standards. Really well, so if anyone hasn't listened to that already,

check that out. But um, yeah, it's grounded in a very colonialist Western I mean, we talked about the Western beauty standard all the time, and and it's it's very much rooted in colonialism and racism, and and it's a it's a zero sum game for everybody because it's rooted, and like everyone's bodies are being controlled. And so it's like even if you're you know, if you do look like miss honey, let's say that is still the result of the demands and pressures of the society that you're

living in. So it's yeah. The the book that I would recommend to everybody listening is Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings, which is just such an incredible comprehensive look at how fat people are othered and also how specifically, uh, non white fat people are extremely mothered um and have then yeah, and and how it's just it's yet another systemic issue that can be traced right back to colonialism absolutely, and and like and I second Jamie's recommendation on the

books such a fantastic book and and like I feel like it's a book that I will continue to go back to and like reference, uh, because yeah, you know, there's there's a lot of stuff that we can all learn. What I was going to say in addition to that, too, is is, like you said, it's a zero sum game, everybody loses. And fatness and like queerness, the way that those two things interact as well in terms of villainy, like I said, is to just sort of render this

body monstrous. You know, Like there are distinct moments in the film where trench Bull is like portrayed as being almost like animalistic. Like I think about like when she's like sniffing like the ribbon that she finds um you know, it's like yeah, or when she's like chasing Matilda and Massani through the house, which is still such like even now,

it's still like such a terrifying scene to me. She's like sniffing the end, she's like she's like breathing heavily and like visibly perspiring, you know, And it's like this very animal sort of thing. And the way that her the camera treats her body at many points, and I feel like we're we're constantly seeing her from like up angles. We're seeing like her fishy lenses, like like unflattering lenses.

She's shot very very differently than anyone else in the movie, even the other villains, because it's like you don't really see those applied to to Matilda's parents, even though I think that they are also not through fatness, but they're they're also physically mothered. Yeah, especially I think like especially I think Harry, I think it's sort of like the taller woman shorter man sort of thing that's like that's that played with like and like sort of stereotypes around

like masculinity. I think also come into play a lot with Harry, And I think that that's maybe y mental to plays the pranks that she does on her dad is because he is so invested in this like masculine

idea of his appearance. You know, he says to his son at one point, like, you know, I'm not selling a car, I'm selling me, you know, like, and so I think that, like that's another sort of line in the film where I feel like we're supposed to be laughing at the character because he's like, you know, he's like the short little guy who's like, you know, we have this idea in our minds that like short men are like somehow more vengeful then just like regular sized men,

which is wrong. I mean, it's incorrect, but like I think that it's definitely like something that exists culturally. So I think that there's like a lot of different like ways that people's bodies are used in this film. And I also think, like I think about like the fat characters that I had growing up as a kid. It was like Miss trench Bull, uh that one Chicken from

that uh like from Chicken Run. Oh no, not even from Chicken Run from from the like Disney Robin Hood where they're like foxes, I know exactly who you're doing. And she's like made Marian's and she's Scottish and she's like I think she's called Mrs Cluck, Madam Cluck, Lady Cluck. I don't know, Mrs Chicken. I don't know. Anyway, she was fat. Also, there is ursula. You know, we're not getting like there's not like you know, it's not like

we get like a broad great spectrum, you know. Um so yeah, so when you do see like this like particularly unflattering portrayal of like a fat character, you know, like that's what I mean. Like I think my empathy really like kicks in and it's like, poor miss trench Bull, you're so awful. Also, I don't know, like one thing. This is sort of a side sort of note, but like trunch Bull says at one point that like she's like she hates children, and she's like I'm glad I

would never was one. And that just makes me think that like maybe trunch Bill had like a really traumatic upbringing and she didn't go to therapy, and like that's why she behaves the way that she does, you know, and we don't get any insight into how That's something I didn't even that didn't even click for me, is like we get an extreme insight into how Matilda and Miss Honey were raised, but we get no insight into

the people were being told are the villains. We have no insight into why they behaved the way they behave with the parents or with Miss trunch Ball. No, and and and like not to excuse like villainous behavior, not to excuse like people who are abusive, absolutely not, and not to make excuses for them. But I would argue that you know, here in we're pretty well aware of the fact that like, sometimes people who are abusive are violent.

You know, sometimes people who are not great parents are the way that they are because of the fact that you know, they didn't have great role models and experienced abuse or experienced trauma themselves. Like hurt people. Hurt people because thing happens in a vacuum. And it would have been interesting to explore, yeah, why these villainous characters are the way they are, but the movie doesn't have any interest in exploring that, and especially when it queer codes them,

like that's why. That's what it really bothers me. Is sort of like the fact that like, you know, here we have a queer coded villain who's like violent and abusive and we have no context for why. So then it's just like, oh, queer women specifically are just violent and abusive, and that end the story, which is like not not nothing, you know, like it's it's not a

helpful narrative to perpetuate. It did make me laugh when Miss trunch Bull comes into the class, I think the second time she like oversees Miss Honny's class and the little girl who she had formerly thrown around by her pigtails was like, yeah, we learned how to bell difficulty via a song that Miss Honey taught us Mrs D, Mrs I, Mrs f f I, Mrs C, Mrs you, Mrs L t Y. And then trench Bull is like, why are all these women married? There? I think that,

but but like why are why are all these women married? Question? And that's like another reason so here, okay, just as like a quick summary, I keep referring to trensh Bull as a queer coded character. Here are the reasons. That is one of the reasons in the book, although I don't think it's made as explicit in the movie. She hates long hair. That's why she throws the girl around

by her pink tails, is because she hates long hair. Um. Like I said, they darkened Pam Ferris's mustache specifically for like the trench Bull, and of course we associate facial hair with like certain types of gender expression. You know. It's the fact that there are no love interests in this movie, and we didn't bring that up in terms of like something that's kind of crazy about kids films, but there's always love interest in kids films, but this film has no love interests. Yeah, so I think I

love it, right, It's so good. I'm so happy that Matilda didn't get like a boy that she was sweet on. That made me so happy or that Honestly, I thought that Miss Honey, that was the most remarkable avoidance of that trope, because I the second I saw Miss Honey, I was like, oh my god, they're going to marry her off to some weirdo, like to Paul Rubens. Or something. She's gonna marry a cop Lana del Ray style. This

is a nightmare. But Miss Honey, I thought it was like because I feel like and I'm trying to think of who I'm thinking of here, but because I feel like we've seen so many Miss Honey characters in children's media who always are like that. That is how the traditionally Western beauty standards feminine woman. That's how her story ends.

It's like but where it's like, there's so much of Miss Honey's story as its present it in the movie is almost like a Cinderella e story, except that it ends with her asserting herself, confronting her past, and adopting a child to raise as a single parent, which is like,

that is awesome. That like I was blown away by that creative choice and like, you know, and and that idea of sort of like even after like even in the like after the you know, when we're getting into like you know, after Trunch believes, you know, and Miss Honey's living her life and until it's coming to his like there's no man at that point, even that's brought into the picture, it's like no, no, no, she decided to be a single parent. She was like, no, I

got daddy bucks. I'm good, Like, don't even worry about like ushbucks. Yeah, yeah, because her dad's And I think if they had married her off, we wouldn't have had those moments, Jamie. I really think that there would have been like, instead of her standing up for herself in a certain herself, I really think it would have been the man being like, well, gosh, darn it, you can't let your aunt treat you like that, you know, Jennifer, how could you let yourself be treated this way for

so long? And you're like, get out of here there. Yeah. But then but then it's it's it's such a double edged thing because as it feels so pointed when that same choice is applied to miss trunch Bull, because it's done so without context and we don't have any context about who she is exactly right, And because she's also like the older spinster and I had to use that word,

but like she's like the older unmarried woman. I feel like there's also always a connotation like that, like and and again, I hope this is changing, but I feel like for a really long time, it's like, oh, the older unmarried woman. You know, it's like, well, you know, you guys might not be able to see, but I'm raising people on the podcast can't see at all, but I'm like doing like the vaguely eyebrows sort of thing.

You know. Yeah, there would have definitely been like a folksy old saying that we had for that on the East Coast, like, oh, you know, she's a little lightner Loofer's meaningful glance like, yeah, I heard she's more of a cat person, if you know what I mean, except that we do see trunch Bull kick a cat across the yard. Yeah, she's actually not much of a cat. She's not much of a cat person. That that scene is still swept saying to me that in the new scene,

the cruelty to animals, yeah, really bad. I want to go back to the way fatness is treated in the movie as it relates to Bruce bog Trotter, she played by Jimmy carrs who's a doctor now, who's a doctor? Now? Oh my gosh, I have some quotes to share. Okay. I found this oral history that is specific to the cake eating scene in the movie. There's like a long oral history from Newsweek. No kidding, I didn't know that

yes by Zach Schonfeld. Will link it in the description, but it's a long oral history about one scene in the movie. Anyway, So a bunch of people are interviewed. I have a couple disturbing quotes from Danny DeVito, who's, uh, maybe this makes him perhaps not the Wilke came we thought he was well because he says, um, in an earlier quote, he's just talking about the child actor Jimmy saying, um, oh, you know, he was so cool. He's an orthopedic doctor. Now I don't know exactly if he's a surgeon or

just a bone guy. So there's that one. The second quote is him saying, it's really funny because like Danny DeVito, because like the reason I knew that kid is now a doctor was because there's another quote another thing that I read that Danny DeVito was like, yeah, kid, he's some kind of some kind of doctor. Now, maybe an osteopath. I don't know. I thought you could, yeah, you could hear him saying that in his voice, like I don't know,

it's some kind of bone guy. I don't know, but I love that Danny DeVito like those he's some kind of bone guy. He's like an uncle who's trying to remember some kind of like cousin's boyfriend's roommate or something, you know, like, yeah, I don't need to know. I don't. I don't need Danny DeVito to know more about medicine than that that's wine. That's good. Well, listen to this second quote. There's a lot to unpack here. So Danny DeVito says about the actor who eats the cake in

the movie quote, Jimmy is looking amazing. He's grown into a fine young man. He was a little chubb chub when I knew him. Now he's a strapping young gentleman and a doctor not doctor doctor is how it's quoted. Danny DeVito can't not talk like a Newsies character. She's a doctor. And then the final part of this is of his quote is oh I need bone doctors. Man, I'm the original guy in need of bone doctors unquote. Okay, and I'm back and I'm back. That second quote was

not great, but the third one I'm back. So how is Danny de Vito a native auntie like that happened? I don't know. God, that's I bring up this quote because of the way he's talking about Jimmy carrs he was a kid. Yes, So what happens in the movie is Principal trunch Bowl calls an assembly so that the whole school can watch her fat shame a child because she suspects him of eating a piece of her chocolate cake. Um, which is it's never terribly clear if he did or

if he didn't. He says like it's better than my mom's. But he's also but like, I don't know if that's just like something a kid would say, right right, So we're not even sure if he is like guilty of this non crime, but for this nom nom crime whoa

sticky sticky alert. So she calls him on stage and it's like, here, eat this piece of cake, and then he does kind of reluctantly, and then she like summons the cook of the school, who brings out the rest of this enormous cake, and then trunch both forces Bruce bog Trotter to eat the whole thing in front of the school. So the fact that it's like a fat kid who stole the cake to begin with, who is made a spectacle of basically who is publicly shamed for

are perpet humiliated. Yeah, and eating thing, and the whole

thing being framed as being disgusting. Like I have to skip over this scene because it is the way in which, like the costuming they put like all this like smeared chocolate all over him in his face, and the angles that they're shooting this kid with, and just the kind of grotesqueness of it all is basically using cinematic language communicating to the audience saying basically like when fat people eat, it's gross and it's shameful, and this is how you

should feel when you watch that, and it's just so horrendously fatphobic and toxic. And and they do the same thing with trench Bill. There's a there's a point when trench Bills eating a piece of chocolate cake at her house. I think, when yeah, tell, then there are there where they do like a sort of similar sort of call back. And it's a lot of mouth sounds for no reason and a very tight angle for no reason. You know.

But this scene is like this scene in particular has been written about by a lot of like fat academics and artists, like because this is our trauma, this is our collective trauma um for folks who can't see me on the podcast. I am a fat person. I'm very happy calling myself that. That is like being called a little chub. Chub by Danny DeVito is now my dream,

um and putting it on my back list. But like you know, uh, this is like this is part of our collective trauma because like, UM, we have this association first, first and foremost, you know, we have this idea within our culture that you are ultimately the person who determines what your body looks like, which is not true. UM. Our bodies are they estimate probably you know, the way that we look is determined by our genetics. So what does your family look like? What did your ancestors look like? UM?

Is like variable sort of like health outcomes, but a lot of that is also like tied to class, tied to ability, you know, like do you have chronic illness? Do you suffer from like depression? Things like that? Can you afford? What was that article about that woman who spends like so many thousands of dollars every month on

like smoothie like health food smoothies and like that. Oh absolutely, you know, and like for indigenous people as well, like you know, when if you want to talk about like spending thousands of dollars at the grocery store, like there is an overwhelming occupation. Um. And you'll see this a lot on reserves here at least in Canada, Like, um, there's a lot of government messaging about how indigenous folks like, oh, you need to make healthier eating choices and you need

to do this, and you do that. But um, like I've been in flying communities in northern Quebec. Here we're buying like it's to buy like like a two liter of mal it's like fifteen bucks, you know, to buy like a thing of like asparagus, it's like twelve bucks. You know, if you're trying to feed your family, you know, you have to make certain choices about like the food that you can even have access to, like fresh produce, like getting fresh produced up north can be challenging at times,

you know. And it's not even just up north, Like I'm from Eastern Canada. The last time I lived in Eastern Canada, I lived in our a city, you know, like a city with public transport and universities and like like guess like a real city, like a real you know, and like there was still like the winter before I moved to Montreal, caulie flower to get ahead of cauliflower. It was like eight bucks, you know, like and that's like in that's you know, that isn't in a remote area.

That's just like being on the East Coast, the price of living is very, very expensive, and so like I hate the term food desert because again, like all of

this is very intentional. You know, people can grow cauliflower in a lot of places, like there could be you know, different projects and things like that, but especially like a lot of indigenous people you know, would love to connect with like getting traditional food, um, but a lot of that is made so difficult and so expensive that you know, at the end of the day, it's sort of like will make healthier choices, It's like, well I can't afford to.

I am making the best choices that I can afford to to feed my family, you know, and factory farming is awful. And there's a lot of arguments around like you know, eating specific diets and different you know, to do different things, you know, lower cholesterol or less meat

intake because of the effect on they plan it. But for so many, so many people, that decision is like again like having enough food right right and having access big time, and that is like one of the many things that this movie does that feels it almost feels like it's interacting with the point we were talking about earlier where it was like the kind of you see where they're going with it, but it's inherently like misrepresenting issues around education and oversimplifying it of And I feel

like the way that this movie treats food, like you were describing just as like this is an individual decision as opposed to all of these factors. And then on top of that, who gives a ship? It's none of business, yeah, you know, and like and even just like the portraying it as like, oh, you know, he can eat all

of this cake because he's a fat kid. Like that was like always like the jump that I sort of we're making my brain of like and it's like, no, like the human stomach, no matter what size your body is, is about the same, Like it's about you know, it's gonna be your little like your little poach. You know, it's not it's not that big cannot fit an entire chocolate cake. That's like I don't know, twenty inches in diameter.

That thing was enormous, like tall like and very sticky. Um. I would also like again sort of with like trunch Bowl, you know, and broadcasting things via people's names, Miss Fanny broadcasting things via people's names, Wormwood, which is a poison broadcasting things via people's names. I feel like bog Trotter is also like a fat name, like a lack of like a better term for it, like and and it's it's it's sort of this like it's it's because of sort of like the like oh sounds that you end

up getting. I don't know, it's like the roundness of an oh. I don't know, bog Trotter. You wouldn't call a thin character bob Trotter. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It almost sounds like because I wish I had written them down, because trench Bowl comes up with several just

iconic insults that she calls the children. The one I remember, she calls them something something piss worms something, it's like um, but bog Trotter almost sounds like one of the insults that she would hurl at a child and then like right, But contrast, Miss Honey is called miss Honey because she's sweet and pleasant, it's like Swan being your last name and you being like beautiful. Right, It's like it's like that, yeah, that extreme, Like I understand why Roldal makes those choices

because of whatever. He's telegraphing things in simple terms, because he's a children's author, but he's telegraphing things that are broad stereotypes, so he's using his tools for evil. I don't like it. And then when we talk about how Bruce's story plays out, because that scene takes place, and then it kind of ends as this like Spartacuss style ending, Um,

let's let's unpack that. I'm curious of what you both thought of how that seems kind of results, right, because instead of any and again, this is a room full of children who you know are perhaps not the most equipped to advocate further peers against a tyrannical principle. But it's also a movie, and like whatever, you can suspend

your disbelief for things. But rather than anyone being like, no, Bruce, stop, you don't have to do this thing that's clearly like making you ill and causing you pain and is humiliating you and all this stuff, Matilda's like you can do it. Keep eating which you're like, oh, she's trying. She's trying, but like, yeah, like she's egging him on in support

and almost like encouraging him to finish the cake. Might read on it as she's encouraging him to finish the cake out of spite for Miss trunch Ball, right, So it's like there's no like malice in her intent, but as far as like the implications of what she's cheering him on for is not very productive, we'll say no. And it's it's I mean, I'm sure we've all eaten things out of spite for somebody, you know, at least once a day, you know, like, yeah, it is really weird.

And I never, like as a fat kid and as a fat adult, I never look at that scene and at the end like feel like whoa, you know, yeah we won, right right, it was like everyone loses. Yeah. So it's it's like really, it's really really tricky and

it's nice. I'm so on the one hand, I am so happy for Matilda that she stands up and like supports one of her peers and like and some of the scenes I love most of the movie is like um, the scenes between like the friends when you start to realize that like her in her Tensia and Lavender and Bruce like hang out, you know, And I love that, and I love that Matilda would feel like she's standing

out for for somebody. But yeah, it's I do want to touch on Lavender really quick because she is one of the few non white characters in the entire movie, played by Kiami Duval. She is I think the only bipop character who has any lines of dialogue. There are others in background shots who were like kids, who were like extras in the classroom, but she's I think the

only one who has lines of dialogue. Um. Even so, though she has very little narrative significance, to the point where if you noticed, she's barely mentioned in the recap because you could essentially write her out of the movie and the story would not really change at all. True,

I love that she's there. She's the cutest child I've ever seen, and I just wanted more for her because she is present but not in a meaningful way, and that's extremely noticeable in a movie that is predominantly white, which is as we talked about at Like at the beginning of the show, mainstream children's movies in like American cinema, especially the ones that have like stood the test of time and that we like still watch and remember and

like talk about, are so so so white. It's just another unfortunate example of there being very few people of color in the movie, and the one that has a name and any lines of dialogue still doesn't contribute to this story, isn't allowed to contribute to the story in any meaningful way. Absolutely it us feel like symbolic diversity over anything, you know, like which feels very of its time. But also you know, how how much of that has

actually been resolved in modern media? Exactly No, And it's it's so unfortunate because, like I said, you know, some of my favorite moments in the film are moments between Lavender and Matilda, Like I really love for example, when um that last sort of rampage that trench wile goes on and she, like Matilda then like saves Lavender by like lifting her up and putting around the pipe and

then bringing her down safely, you know. And there's another moment to where like when the newt and she knows that Lavender put the new in the water, and Lavender is like, well, thank you for not telling him Matilda's like best friends don't tell you know, those moments are really really nice, And I always been watching this film, as much as I enjoy it, always wish that there were more of those kind of moments, because, like, I think it's also just like nice, nice friendships, you know,

just and there's room for it in the movie, it feels like it's and I feel like it's almost like Lavender's character is put aside in favor of focusing on

their relationship between Matilda and Miss Honey. But I feel like it would have been a powerful choice to have Matilda like strongly connect and learn about her connection with a with a kid her own age, too, especially because it's set up in the movie that like, she doesn't have friends like people her age that she talks to because like again, her really awful parents are depriving her

of opportunities to connect with children her own age. So yeah, I almost would have rather this story unfold in such a way that sure, Miss Honey can be a character, she can be a positive influence in Matilda's life, but I kind of rather see a story about Matilda meeting like a best friend and developing that friendship and the hi jinks that they get into together or even just like including Lavender in the Miss Honey story, like where it seems like she is also has you know, she's

also being abused at this school by Miss trench Bull. We have to assume there's a larger context for that. How did she end up at this school? What? Like what is her what is her family? Like like it

there's it? Would it would help the story? No, absolutely, and sort of like yeah, like with her home life, like like that's always the big question I have is like part of trench Bulls like over the top punishments, is like the idea that like parents would never believe children, you know, so then it's like, oh, okay, well then like what's is Lavender also in a situation where like she needs to be rescued like you know, and and you know, you start to sort of wonder about this

kind of things. I think it could also be interesting for Matilda to like meet a family that's like functional and like healthy like healthy relationship dynamics and sort of like be able to sort of realize like which I think she does. Like I think she's very well aware of the fact that, like her home life is not ideal, but like it might sort of like take that contrast of like being like, oh, you know, like I could maybe ask for something better for myself, Jamie, I know

that you have a heart out soon. The last thing I wanted to bring up very quickly is just shout out to this movie for not being copaganda, because the FBI agents in this movie are like treated as kind of being, you know, bumbling fools. And the funniest part of the movie to me is when so like these FBI agents are tailing Mr Wormwood because he is like buying and selling stolen car parts and stuff. Why the

FBI is involved not sure, but the unclear. Matilda keeps telling her parents like, oh, these guys that are outside watching you all the time are obviously cops, and her mom's like, no, their speedboat salesman. Um. And then at one point Matilda comes home and the two agents, one of which is Paul Rubens, are in the house and like her mom is kind of flirting with them, and then Matilda takes one look at them and just like dead pan is like they're cops and it's the funniest

part of the movie. And I just like laugh off off um and then Danny DeVito comes in and calls them surfer dudes and male strippers, which is like, but again, that's sort of like confronting. He's like, he's like picture of his own masculinity. Like, right, you know, he's anti surfer, anti surfer dudes and male strippers, surfer dude masculinity. We gotta talk about it. Um, we've already covered point break,

Um that surfer dude cops do. Yeah, but yeah, this movie is not pro cop which is saying a lot for a movie from the nineties. I want to believe that's the inner Danny DeVito to I do I do to, And I also love that, Like you know, in my head canon of like what happens to Matilda later is she flourishes as a BiCon and is like, you know, totally at protests with a sign that's like a cab

you know, Wilson rules. I mean, because that's who she is too, Like, that's what she's doing in real life, exactly similar, I imagine, I would hope a similar trajectory. It's like Mario Wilson, but if she still had magical powers, yeah, exactly, which she might. You know, Yeah, we have to ask her um, does this movie pass the Bechdel tests? For sure? Lots lots of lots between a lot of different combinations of characters. As far as our nipple scale zero to

five nipples based on how the movie fares. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, this one is tricky has while it's doing some good things as far as it's kind of like themes and more like the moral statement the movie is making and and how so many people just took positive messaging away from the movie. Uh, it is kind of overshadowed by the fact that a lot of the ways in which that messaging gets across is relying on harmful, fat phobic, classist, elitist, homophobic tropes.

With that in mind, I feel like I to me, it is going to have to be one of those like split down the middle movies, where like it's doing good stuff but by way of bad stuff. So yeah, I think I can only give it two and a half nipples. I do. We didn't touch on this really, but I do love the kind of theme or like the interpretation of like the Chosen Family narrative, and like

that thing is really sweet. I love just again, how like valuing a little girl learning and um, you know, just like having a thirst for knowledge is something that I think is important to see, especially when the movie is directed at children. But yeah, it's a lot of like of the time, nineties era problematic stuff. So two and a half nipples, I will give one tomorrow Wilson, one to Pam Ferris, and one to the poor cat

who is kicked by trunch bowl. Looks like fly, looks like fly hit it hit and does have eight nipples there. I brought cat facts back a very special appearances. I'll meet you at at two and a half. I think that there's this movie. I mean it's like it's it's tough because it's like we've talked about this whole episode. There is a lot of heart and I think good intent at the core of this movie. And and that

really does make a ton of difference. However, I mean, starting from the person who wrote the story, it wouldn't with whom there's a trend of baggage attached. And um, you know, his prejudice is kind of being difficult to remove it impossible in some ways. To remove from his own material is basically impossible. And so we see these homophobic tendencies that you know are also inherent to the nineties, like the homophobia, the fat phobia, the symbolic inclusion of

people of color. But the characters could be caught out easily and don't have stories of their own. And so while I love Matilda and I do love the message at the core of her and Miss Honey's relationship and story of chosen family of adults listening to and taking children seriously, which is just always a message I respond really strongly to, and and everyone's life improving as a result of listening to children and taking them seriously. There's

so much good. And then the tools used to arrive at that very good conclusion are just very loaded and very harmful in many ways. So two and a half. I will give one to Matilda, I will give one to the Bengo Jacket, and I will give the last half to Lavender. Um, I'm right there with you, with

both of you. As much as I love this film, and as much as I sort of joked at the beginning that like I, I I feel like it is very informed of like the person that I have become, Like a lot of this stuff that I take like as good from the film is stuff that like I'm bringing to it now and not like stuff that's necessarily in there. And we do that a lot as as you know. I think it is like queer and gender diverse people. You know, for a really long time, stories weren't made

about us. And so you know when we get like a queer villain like trench Ball, and we get like a queer story like this, because I still think Matilda like Zinny is basically in drag the whole time. Um, there are like no male love interests, Like this is a very queer story. And but like that wasn't put there, I don't think intentionally. I think that is like interpretation coming like after the fact. Um. And yeah, the chosen

family side of things is wonderful. And I would say to anybody who might be out there and feeling like they are not appreciated by their family or they are not being loved and nurtured way that they need to be that like, sometimes the people you are related to you can't do that for you, and you can find other people who who will love you and appreciate you. Like those people are out there, and you should never hesitate to seek out your chosen family because yeah, you know,

like you deserve that, you deserve to be left and nurtured. Um, so two and a half nipples I will give. Oh man, now we just want nipples on the Bingo jacket somewhere. So I feel like, you know what I feel like. I will give a nipple to Maura Wilson because not only is she incredible in this movie. Not only is she incredible now, but she was also like in the process of losing her mom during this whole thing, as a you know, and as a kid. I can't imagine what kind of like stress that is so huge. One

nipple for Mara. Um, I would give my other nipple to pan Fist as well. She's amazing and she did such a fantastic job in this film just being such a hammy camp villa in I hope there's somebody out there who does trunch bowl drag. I'm going to look it up. I bet there is. I'm gonna I'm gonna look it up, and if not, I am going to it's your time to shine exactly. And then my last half nipple, um, my last half nipple hasco that Bengo jacket.

I'm going to recreate that Bengo jacket. I know, I feel like there should be we have to contact Superyarchy stat there should be repros of of the Bengo jacket, or we should have like a like a crafternoon. That would be so fun. Oh my god, this is the first time I'm hearing this expression. Crafternoon. Yes, and it's changed my life. Imagine the time we're going to save. Absolutely,

crafternoons are great. Well, Jess, thank you so much for coming back and for this bringing a wonderful discussion that was a pleasure. Where can people follow your stuff, check out your stuff online, support you, etcetera. Um So, the best way, the best place to find me is at rad Babe on Instagram and it's like underscore rad Underscore Babe Underscore. Anyway, if you search Jeff Marilyn, you'll find me on Instagram. Um. I didn't think about the branding

when I chose the name. Okay uh and I'm I'm always out there in the world doing doing queer stuff, doing in indigit queer stuff, doing fat stuff, doing movie stuff. Um So that's the best way to find me in to to follow me. Um if you happen to be in Montreal. Right now, the Cedar t Project, which is a black and Indigenous solidarity project especially for street involved folks, is doing a fundraiser, so you can check them out on Facebook at the Theater Tea Project if you're looking

for something to support UM. I also have their information up on my Instagram, so that's why you can find me. I have a film that I made, a documentary called Love is the First Sacred Lesson that is going to be playing some film festivals this fall, so keep an eye up for that. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I'm very excited because it takes so long to make films and then you know, you're like, I don't really want to have anything to do with it anymore, so put

it out in the world. No, no, I this this film is really really close to my heart in a lot a lot of ways, so I'm excited for people to see it. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being here again. Whenever you want to come back, bring us another movie and we'll talk more. Oh absolutely, And you guys, you know, come to Montreal now that like things are opening up a little bit, like well craft, dude, baby, Absolutely,

and we'll eat bagels and you know speak French. Carolyn and I are always doing that, so it's just gonna be another day for us, right, It's gonna be amazing. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Becktel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon. It's five dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, which is over one hundred bonus episodes at this point, so there's lots of stuff to go through. It's a good time

to join um. You can also get our merch at dot com Slage The Bechtel Cast, follow your heart, do it or don't do it, We won't know either way. But if you want some stuff, that's where you can get some stuff. And with that, seems like we've gotten pretty adequately sticky this episode. I'm extremely sticky, very stick Never been stickier sticky with discourse. That is wow. Whoa okay, bye bye ye