Love, Simon with Matt Rogers

we were doing for your birthday. So and it's our last show in l A for a couple of months, so be sure to come out celebrate with us, bring me a bunch of presents while you're at it. I will be as rest for sure. I will be dressed as a resputed um and I would say it would be the last time to incentivize people to go, but I know it won't be. Uh. And the reason we won't be here for the summer is because we will

both be doing shows in Europe. That's right, That's why we'll be gone from l A for a little bit. Now you understand Dad it because Jamie, what are you doing? I'm bringing my solo show Boss Whom Is Girl to Edinburgh Fringe Festival and London. If you are not familiar, is my One Woman's show about an evil corporate feminist who uses feminism for bad, unlike us who use it for good. Um, it's it's a lot of Elizabeth, so much fun. I've seen it many times. You're Caitlyn's a

stand of the show. I don't pressure her to go, but I'm really excited about it. I've never done Fringe before, so if you're a UK backtel head, I'd love to see you there. I'll be in London doing it on July eighth at the Bill Murray okay, sure, only five pounds ago and those will be the only two shows I'll be I'll be doing there for Boss and His Girl, and then i'll be at Edinburgh Fringe every damn night from July one through August at Pleasants, Baby Grand please

come to those. I don't know anyone there, and it would be so great to see a friendly face shows in Europe too. Why thank you for bringing it up, Because I'm doing probably mostly stand up shows, um, some in London, some in Edinburgh, some maybe I'm going to be in Dublin too. I don't have any shows booked there yet, but until maybe he until you're like, hey, Caitlin, uh do this show in Dublin And I'm also going to be some other places in Europe to any Athens,

Greece listeners, because I'll be there. I don't know what the comedy scene is like there. We're traveling women now, yes, you gotta deal with it. We're going around the world, so stay tuned with maybe announcing additional day. It's mystery question mark who knows. So keep checking betelcast dot com on our live appearances tab. That's where you can find the links to all of their shows and more so, thank you for listening and enjoy the episode that you're

about to hear. On the bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef and best start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello and welcome to the Becktel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dronte and Jamie loved it and we talked about the portrayal and representation of women and movez yes and I said that so aware I liked it. I liked it. I like you made a choice and

I and I was. It's like when you're watching a movie and you're like, that was a choice, and I come back to it. If she backs out, I'll respect her list. It's not my favorite choice, but I've never really liked that that's the one you made. It was a mistake, and I am I'm stopping. I love my favorite thing to do on stages, make a choice, feel a little bit of hesitation, immediately back up on it, and lose the entire audience. I love that when they're like, oh,

she's really going for it. Oh she realizes it's not working. Oh she's receding into herself, and we have to spend forty five more minutes with her that I keep telling what happened to me last week? You know, wonderful, What a what a gift. Anyway, so we talk about we use the Bectel test as a jumping off point to initiate this larger conversation. And the Bechtel Test, of course, is a media test created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, and it requires that a movie or anything with a narrative

has two female defining characters with names. They have to talk to each other, and they cannot talk about men. Unbelievable. I wonder if the Lorena bob it. Thank you, Henry, I'm just gonna keep talking about it. I wonder if it passes it doesn't pass the Bectel test of Loraina Bobbit chops her husband's stick off and drews it into the woods, even if she's not talking to anyone, that does automatically passed the Becktel test. Yes, okay, um, cool, Well shall we begin. Let's do it our guest today,

we have a great one. I'm excited. He hosts the last culture Eristas podcast with Bone Yang, and they've been on tour with the I Don't Think so Honey Live Tour. It's Matt Rogers. Hi. Hi, Honestly, what I loved that you said before, my favorite thing to do is make a choice, and that could have been the end of the end of the sentence. And then you're like to make a choice and then back away, and I was like, perfect, and then you were like and then they're stuck with

me forty five minutes. So it wasn't very specific scenario. And I loved every sentence it could have been compounded to, and the sentence that ultimately it was Plymouth, Massachusetts. The whole hour of it incredible, wonderful. Oh we forgot to mention. Okay, So full disclosure, Matt. We have an embargo on mail guests that we that we sometimes lift when the time is right and the time is right for you. We only yeah, we only do it for best of the best. Okay.

So who have you had on what's the company? Alfred Molina? Oh yeah, we had to lift. Well yeah, I mean there was no choice. I mean, I like, I forgot that he identified as any gender. I was like an idea than a gender. Unbelievable. And I heard one Patrigan just in the room, just now. Yes, So we've been we've been very choosy. So you know, you're really some top tier ship. Honestly, I'm really grateful that you guys

have chosen me. And I do think that the movie I chose for you guys like, it's good that I'm here to talk about it. It's only white gay talk about white gay bullshit. Okay, I am No one else's take counts. This is a white gay fantasia, and I'm here to expound on it. So today's movie, of course, is Love Simon. What is your history with have you read the book, what's your like, what's your relationship? I have not read the book. I did see the film

in theaters. I was a good supporter of this LGBT cinema. Um well, when it came out, I was kind of like, oh boy, like what's what's this going to be? And then I I kind of was like, you know what, let's give it a shot. And I did end up crying by the end of the film. I actually cried a couple of times. I saw it with my best friend Sudie Green, and we we went and we were emotionally affected by it. And then I had that moment of everyone that had criticism of it that was like

justifiably good criticism. I was kind of like defensive about it because I was like, but but just let us have this and then but also it's like not a perfect film, and also it's it's super like for the privileged. But I did like enjoy the film, you know what I mean as a movie. I was like, I'd rather see this movie than like fucking paper Heart or whatever that ship was with, you know what I mean. I just was like, at least it's different than that. I

don't have patience for a John Green joint. I just don't I don't care, Like I really don't care about like this, like sort of I don't even know if i'd call it twee, but like this kind of like mystical team girl bullshit, I don't care, Like she always has to I for like The Boy to learn a lesson and that's the movie, right, And also The Boy and those movies just so fucking boring. And also if there's like a sort of interesting male character, you know,

there has to be a boring character. It's like in those films, like one of them has to be boring. And I'm not right. I'm not saying that Simon isn't boring, because Simon is pretty boring and has an Elliott Smith Foster and and and Radiohead April two written on his chalkboard walls. You're just like, man, he's like you know other gays, he's and that's not like the other guys. He's straight. Yeah, he's like, may as well be straight.

And also like when he's asking his friend when he does come out to his one friend and he's like, did you expect anything? Did you suspect anything? And she's like, I mean no, like because you're too freaking boring to have any personality to draw anything on the most exciting

thing about you as a poster on your wall. Know, there's a lot of I mean, and I guess teenagers like I definitely did this to some extent, but a lot of like this is the character and you can tell because this is their bedroom, like boor At kid. Like boor At kid, You're like, oh, I know the vibe of this kid. It's boor At kids. I actually I was like justifying to my friends why he was

so boring. I'm like, the thing is like when you're day in high school, you don't have a personality because you're not allowed to have one, Like he's saying he likes Radiohead because he can't really say, like Christina Aguilera, you know what I mean, like all these things true, And I was like, you know what, Yes, that could be true, or maybe the filmmakers are just like he's a kid that likes Radiohead, which I think both are

equally possible. I don't know. I want to assume it's smarter than it is, but it could just be like a fine B plus movie, which I love, I love, I love that for it. I really like this movie, and I have I'm coming at it with some blind spots, but I saw it twice in theaters and I did a good lots of good laughs, some good cry and thank you for that. I was very emotionally invested in this story and that, of course know it's it's not without its issues, but we'll talk about those. But I

generally really liked this movie. I saw it this morning. I laughed, I cried. Yeah, I liked it. And then when I was like, who wrote this movie? And it's that this is us writers, which makes so much sense because they're pulling. Yeah, they're pulling at the exact like there is an element to this movie at times where it's like you feel like your heart strings are being

pulled very scientifically and methodically. They're like first I'm going to do this, and then I'm gonna throw in a dead scene, and then like then Jennifer Garner's the mom, which is like at this point, that's what she does, that she This is my second favorite Jennifer Garner mom role.

But what's the first favorite? Juno Juno? Yeah, I think I might like this movie more than Juno or maybe definitely or maybe maybe it's been a long time since I've seen Juno, you know, just to like flat out say this just up top, because I already feel myself being like needlessly cynical about it. It was very kind of cool to see a depiction of two gay kids kissing at the and and then everyone sharing, you know what I mean, because that would never have happened when

I was in high school. And I think that, like, you know, the criticism of this movie like it is what it is, but also it's like, come on, it's it's a nice movie where good things happened to someone who struggles, and you know, I can relate to the struggle.

And sure, like I think we as a society are still progressing and in some cases regressing, but like you know, we're always hoping for more intersectionality in movies and in in media, but you know, it has to start somewhere, and I feel like this is a good in the right direction. And the fact that this movie had like a gigantic release and it was very successful and like well regarded that, yeah that says a lot. Yeah. I

actually made my parents go see it. I was like, you should go see this movie because my dad like, and my dad said it hurt his feelings. I was like, why did it hurt your feelings? He was like, well, the scene with the debt, because to be honest with you, the scene the dad. And I think Josh Dumel's best performance. Let's just say, I don't know if I've ever seen him be like, I've never been impressed with him before

this movie. He was good. And also I think like it's kind of it's that kind of thing where it's like, you know, you're giving that scene as an actor, and like it's probably pretty hard to mess that up, like it's pretty emotional situation. But he was great. And I remember I said to my dad, I was like, you should go see this movie. And he's like the scene with the dad about him missing it, that was like

very similar. When I was watching that scene, I actually like was very emotionally if I did by it because it mirrored the own scene in my own life very I mean even the vest he was wearing. Remember he's wearing that coffee dad vest over a flannel with a hat on. That was my dad's like that that he was doing like Rich Rogers drag in that scene, And I was like oh boy. And so the way he was being emotional about it, they were standing very far

away from each other. It was kind of just like, it's that kind of masculinity that there's like that thing that needs to get broken down. Extra it did a like a job in that scene of depicting that and so so between that and also the scene with the mom and there was lots of stuff that was gonna get me. Sure, Yeah, it's I mean I cried a lot during that like sequence of him coming out to different people where just and then one of the scenes would end, you like, and then another one would start

you'd be like, ah. The sister too, was tough for me. When the sister comes to his room and is like, Simon, are you okay? Is it true? And he was like get out of here and yelled at the sister. Had I wish they had had more of a reconciling somewhere in the end they don't really get that. I guess he gives her a queens in art and that was. Yeah, that that was I think that was for me, the most privileged moment of the movie. I'm like, Simon, where did you get this money? For a least everyone seems

very wealthy. That is one of I like that. It did make me laugh a lot where where like where it starts where like I'm like you, I just got a car from my parents. My house has five rooms, Like my mom is incredibly liberal, like as if she were in her early twenties in New York City, like smashed the patriarchy and they're fucking gigantic house. I am assuming was bought with an oil fortune. Like, we don't

know that, it's crazy his mom is a therapist. Oh, yes, they do say that, right, I don't know, Yeah, we don't know what his dad does. Though I don't think I know. I don't think they say. You know. That was actually something about it where I was like maybe something they were going for which didn't really land and just felt like privilege. But maybe what they were going for was like a kid like this that it seems

like has everything can be hurting very much. And I think that that is like something I sort of related to. My family was an upper middle class. We were middle class comfortable. My mom was a hairdresser and my dad was a phizzed teacher. Like we we had a nice house, but I was still in pain every single day, like an immense amount of emotional pain. And I didn't think

I was lucky, you know what I mean? And so I think something that the film could have done was maybe just given more of an acknowledgement of that sort of like privilege. Sure, he comes from a place of economic privilege, of white privilege, and we can talk more about that, but first, how would we do the freaking recap recap he I'm talking about the specifically, so we meet Simon, he is he describes himself as a He's It's like he's like Brochure, Like, oh my god, You're like,

is he twenty two? Isn't It was? The first thing I did was google his age to see if I should feel like a pervert, but it's yeah. I was just like, oh this is fine, and I'm actually going to see, like where's he at, what's he doing? Yeah? Of course, And he would describe himself as a normal teenager. You know, he's a senior in high school. He's got some great friends. Their names are Leah, Nick and Abby group. Yes,

another Brochure friend group. He's got a great family and things are going pretty well for him, except that he's got this one big secret. It's that he's gay and no one knows. He's still completely in the closet. So at school, there's like this blog that's popular among the students.

It's Leah's only character trait is that she loves I relate so closely with Leah of being this like calling a friend frantically, being like refresher Internet like just God, and being in love with Game and forever like that's just she. I felt very close. Um, And she says, hey, did you see the latest post. It's from a guy who posted anonymously as code named Blue, and he is saying that he is gay, and Simon is like, oh my god, there's someone else like me. So he writes

him an email. He writes Blue an email, Shock. I love that they took the time to show us that he made a shell Gmail account. I'm like, that is appropriately saro. So he writes Blue this email saying like, hey, I've also got a big secret. But he also signs it anonymously as again code name Shock, so they still don't know each other's identities. And then he's like waiting for him to write back, and then Blue finally writes back. Tony Hale is screwball comedy. He's like buster blue thing

all over the place. Tony Hale's character was a little touchy. For mind. He was a very touchy vice prince and he was completely inappropriate in a way that's like maybe we could have seen a movie about this like fifteen years ago, and like we would have said nothing, but like now it's like stop being this way with these kids.

It felt a little out of place with like the movie very modern, but then it was like, oh the like it's I know, this movie is like clearly pulling from a lot of John hughesy kind of stuff, but that was the one parents. I'm like, that's like just straight up textbook John. He is perverted like he was. He was dangerous. Yeah, I was like he should be fired. But he's like, I've got a tender date tonight and I'm trying to fuck and he tells that to his

student and then he like claused. The student is like we can talk about this here. I was like, you're fired. Its wild. So then anyways, but he seems to be having a good time in the role. He's having a great time in the role. I bet his day he's tossing in some improv line seeing what sticks. I wonder if it was ever even discussed on set, like hey, this principle is like a little edgy huh. And they were just like, no, he's fun and then like his

last beat is like a bizarro no homo joke. He was like, you're just like Tony, You're You're Emmy nominated. You don't need this. Another great teacher in the film, Righting love that character. She was amazing and she had all the fun. She had a lot of the L O L one. Definitely. She is the theater teacher. And Simon is doing theater. He's doing a production of Cabaret with Abby, his other friend, which to me was like, I don't know if this guy is being closeted, would

be even be in the play. That took me back to my high school days where I didn't do anything really, no, did no plays, didn't know nothing, because that was that would have been a huge tell. Either could be like a dead giveaway kind of situation. Yeah, and I mean I didn't even have to deal with it being Cabaret, like he's playing like the MC in Cabaret or who was playing it was like an extra Okay, So he was in the cabaret. But either way, in cabaret, if

you're in cabaret, you're doing some sexy. It is a sexy hip movement. I gotta see cabaret and Hello Dolly, my SERI and Dolly change. No, it's a dancer. I was never in any of the musicals because I have the worst singing voice in the world. It's true. So, yeah, the Lady Gaga stars, thank you so much that I'm going to be discovered on this podcast. Okay, So Blue finally writes back, and he and Simon get to talking over email about their experience with being gay, and they're

like sexual awakenings and all this stuff. They're both very articulate. Yeah, they're great writers. They're like screenwriters there. It's almost like they've written many episodes of This is Us. They also capitalize and use they use punctuation. I'm like, this is a teenager. But like, who were the guys they say gave them their sexual awakenings again, Daniel Radcliffe and John Snow, yes, those are good ones. Those are They show two very

different young gays. What I mean like, well, actually no, they're both into young Yeah, from like very nerdy properties yeah exactly. Okay, well, yeah, these these boys are bound to each other. You're right. I liked I liked when they cut from the john Snow to like every teenager wearing a john Snow t shirt in the high school. You're like. That was very stressful for me because it's all it's kind of like shamy for like how people look.

It's like, oh, here's a guy who's like he's kind of chubby, and like here's a guy who's brown, and it's like I wouldn't want to date any of Then they do do a little bit of that, yeah, with no awareness. Right, Yeah, that was a little It's weird. I was thinking the whole time. I was like, what if Blue is not Hollywood hot? At the I thought about that too. Spoiler Allard, he is absolutely Hollywood. He is completely is he over eighteen? He is Thank god

you can jack off to him to guild. But he's like, I'm it was so like, I don't know, he's like Hollywood hotter than Simon. You're just I was like, it would have been an interesting choice for it to be like someone who was not the hottest person ever, But like whatever, they it was a good kiss. Yeah, I

cried during it anyway. Okay, So Simon starts to speculate about who Blue might be, and then at first he thinks it's this guy named Bram who plays soccer with his friend Nick, and then emailing back and forth still and then at one point Simon leaves this email logged in on a computer at the school library. Enter bore at kids, Enter Martin, who sucks so bad, but he that actor does a great job of making that character so unlikable and well that kid, that kid that you

were just like, why am I involved with this person? Like? He really was well well drawn out. He to me felt like the logical conclusion of Chicken Nuggets kid from eighth grade. Really that makes me so sad. You don't think that Chicken Nuggets grade like figured himself out. Oh my god, I had so much hope for Chicken Nuggets. I thought Chicken Nuggets kid was the best I thought right there in eighth grade, Elsie Fisher had literally found her husband. I'm like, girl, it worked out for you

in the end. You fucking nailed it. Like Chicken Nugg gets an interesting TV and Morty and he's already he has romantic instincts at eighth grade. Come on, I take it all back and take it off worse than him. He's probably also going to be sucking dynamite in bed later on because he has to try the worst people in better the hottest. He's going to make it come because no one's ever going to tell like, well, hot people, They're just never going to be told that they're not

doing something right exactly ever. And it's like, I'm not going to be the one to tell them I'm just happy to be here, or that they have to do something. For example, Simon, and when we find out who Blue is later and he is Hollywood hot. When they finally do have sex, it's going to be like, well, who

tries you know what I mean? They're going to have to take turns, making an ass like kind of rubbing against each other in a very unsexy way because Blue is like, I'm ten out of ten hot, and Simon is like, well, I'm eight out of ten hot and white. So so he's like, think anything anyway, anyway, we have to take a quick break, but we'll come right back. So Martin logs in onto the that Simon was using

and he sees the emails. So then he approaches Simon and basically blackmails him and says, hey, I really like your friend Abby. Everyone likes his friend, yes, and I need your help getting with her. And if you don't help me, I will expose your emails and out you to the school. But there is something about this girl where you kind of believe that she's like the one that she's the one that everyone wants to be with.

It makes sense, and she's like a good character and she's a good friend and all that too, so they don't fall into the pitfall of like the bitchy hot girl. And they made it that she was new to the school too. They made that she had only been there for like a year, so you buy it even more because there's like that new girl who there's like an

air of mystery about you know what I mean? That was a smart and she was the only one who seemed to be of like a lower socio economic class because she lives in an apartment building versus a huge McMansion like everyone else lives in. So there's that um but okay, so anyway, so Simon agrees to help Martin so that he's not being outed. So Simon invites Martin to the Halloween party that Bram is throwing that weekend.

They all go to the party and like Nick and Abbey are vibing, Martin tries to butt in but it's not working, and then like Nick wants to ask Abby out. I'm like having deja vu as you're saying, like Nick and Abbey are vibing, because I'm sure I've heard this in regards to some people. For sure they've been vibing for millennia someone. But because Simon is like, beholden to this awful blackmail situation of Martin's, he has to be like, no, Nick,

don't ask Abby out. She's dating this college dude. He makes up some imaginary person. Yeah, he becomes a prolific liar in a web of lies. A web of lies. Um, meanwhile, a teen lie. So many teen movies are based on bets, tricks or lies. Yes. So meanwhile Simon is working up the nerve to tell Bram that he's Jacques at this party, but then he walks in on Bram kissing a girl, so he's like, well, Blue is not Bram never mind. So now Simon thinks that Blue might be this guy

who's a server at the Waffle house. Also Cutie again, is he a teenager or is he? We have to be very careful about who we say is hot. And I'm pretty sure that no one in this movie is a legitimate teenager except maybe the little Sister. Sure everyone else is in their ties based on my cursory, Like the Little Sisters, I AMDB and she's got like a fucking glamour shot and it's like age thirty six. She just did like fucking Lady Macbeth. I hope. So okay.

So then Simon comes out to Abby and it was so that girl that you come out to I loved that scene too, That's great. Yeah, she was like, oh yeah, sure. I'm like, oh cool, you're still too hot for this, You're still too hot for that situation. She's like, I'm not surprised. I wasn't expecting anything, but I'm not surprised. Crazy to think about, because I'm also incredibly smart and

perceptive and nice and very chill as well. There's nothing wrong with me actually, And then something that this happens in a movies a lot, where it's like she's the only, like you point out, she's the only character who's like a little bit poorer than everyone else, and that is always like weirdly exoticized in like teen movies, like, oh, she's kind of from the other side of the track.

She's got a little bit of otherworldly wisdom from what with being poor and so like, it's just like she's been hungry once, right, like, so like she's actually got a lot to teach us. And it was right and it would like definitely set off some red flags if she was like the only person of color in the movie who also happened to be the only person who was of a lower class. But you see like Nick and Bram also with huge houses, so it's like, okay, well,

at least they're not doing that kind of house. Does we don't see Ethan's house? Which one's Ethan? Ethan is the only out kid in school. Oh no, we do not see his home. Correct, we should say there is another out kid at school named Ethan. And because of the way Ethan gets treated, Simon stays in the closet, but he's reluctant to Yeah, he wants, like Blue and Jacque, to reveal their real identities to each other, but Blue

isn't ready, so we still don't know who Blue is. Meanwhile, like Abby is warming up to Martin and Nick is like, fuck it, I'm just gonna tell Abbe that I like her. But like Simon has to keep up this sharade, and he's like, what if you consider Leah instead of Abby? Because Simon thinks that Leah is in love with Nick. She want not idiot, She's in love with him. It's so obvious. That was one thing I thought was a

little not right with the movie. Is it's like in that scene where Leah, who like fully sleeps over Simon's house in his room, somehow that's allowed. Um, She's like, I just want to love one person, looking him dead in the eyes, and she's like I like you basically, and he's just like, yeah, anyway, good night, And he I knew. I knew every time one of my friends was interested in me. It set me off into an

interior panic, which I think was something that could have explored. Sure, yeah, like a part of it's a big part of being closet in high school. It's like navigating like the fact being that you are expected to have like a heterosexual experience. Maybe he's just not very personal, like I'm I'm rarely knowing that it's hard to know, like he's so borning but a great, perceptive, beautiful writer and emails, but it doesn't can't take any signals from someone he's known for

his entire life. That was a little bit off, And it's also I don't know, Yeah, I felt. I felt. I felt really bad for Leah's character almost the entire movie because she doesn't really get a win at all, down to the very end where Simon's like, get in the back seat, my sexy boyfriends taking your spot, So Leah has to sit in the back where her two friends are french ng and then like the only boy she's ever been in love with is with his sexy boyfriend in the front seat, and it's like, God, you

sucked down that ice coffee like you've earned it. But she is going to Leah is literally the type of girl who fucking blossoms in college. College. She is going to be crushing Dick in college. Yeah, Like guys are gonna be lining up because she's super smart. She's like television star beautiful. In fact, she is the star of Thirteen Reasons Why on Netflix. Oh is that okay? I see I have only watched the first episode of thirteen reasons why. But it freaked me out because it's a bad,

dangerous show. It's like suicide is actually sick, like like gikes um. Okay. So then they're all at the homecoming football game and Lyle the waffle house guy is there and he's like, Hey, what's Abby's deal. She's so he's not gay after all, so he's not blue. Um. And then Martin thinks that he needs to make this big grand gesture with Abby, which Simon and I was so mad when he did this. That was Simon's idea. Simon gave him that idea to do a grand jest. I

would argue, he just says, go bigger. Well, he says yeah. To me, it's he's just trying to get Martin off, just like says a cliche, just to like get rid of them. I guess, I don't know, maybe I'm being

too mean to Sigmon. But even in that waffle house scene where this is like one of the most unrealistic fact to the movie to me, in the waffle house scene where Martin does that thing of standing on the table and my name's Abby and I'm beautiful and I deserve the world, and then Eventually he convinces her to

stand and she becomes okay with it. I'm like, like, that just reminds me of so many tense drama club parties that I did not want to scream at and yet and she also like it gives the weird vibe that she's like now going to have a crush on him, right. I was like, no, I think this is like fully humiliating. It's like not in line with her character. Yeah, I've, I've, I don't know. I felt bad for her in that scene and I was like, Simon, can you help out

with this? But you know he's being black mountains, right or right? So at the big game, Martin steals the microphone from the student who is singing the national anthem and very publicly professes his love for Abby, and then she's like, I don't like you like that, and so like to draw attention away from his humiliation, Martin leaks Simon's emails and outs him on that big Crab blog. The little sister comes running in. She's concerned. He's like,

get the funk out of here. A little bit before this, Simon thinks that Blue might now be this guy Cal who is in cabaret with him. There's like a little speculation about that. So now that Simon has been outed, he's freaking out. He goes up to cal and he's like, are you blue, and Call says I'm not, and then he ends up coming out to his family Simon does.

It doesn't go very well. His his dad like a joke about It's dad is like the king of microaggressions, like every time he's on screen means well, but he's not nailing it. Yeah, So it had been like Christmas break and now everyone's back at school and his friends confront him and they're like, Abby's like, you pimped me out and that's very fucked up. H Nick is like, you tried to set me up with Leah. That was

fucked up. And then Leah's like you're the one I was in love with and then you tried to set me up with Nick. That was very fucked up. I hated this scene. This scene sucked to me because it's like, this kid just went through one of the worst things in his life, maybe he might ever go through, and all of you can't fucking deal with the fact that, like you went through like a week long period of like minor inconvenience socially because he was fucking getting black

mouthed and drowning. I hated this and for them to leave him like that, like that could have went really badly. Kids like that like that are closeted, that are in that sort of that have been publicly humiliated like that, for you to bail on him, I was like, this is so funny. I understand why it happens in the movie version of this story because he has to go through like the low point where everyone has basically turned their back on him, But in the content, it just

felt so like too much. Yeah, and and a generally, like the kids in this movie are generally pretty like I don't know, it just like seemed out of character for all. Like it's one thing if they're like, hey, we're piste off that you did this, but like bailing on him just seems like right, yeah, I know, it's a movie. I said. I was worried that Abby was just going to let him off the hook for like pimping her out, so like her anger I think was

the most justified. Like I didn't hate that she confronted him about it, but it was weird that they were all like and you've been out it and fuck you'll see you. Maybe never that any of them confronted him. I just I just don't I don't know the fact that they completely abandoned him in a time where you know you're and is like very vulnerable, seems we didn't

even ask how he was doing. They didn't they didn't even check in with them, like, Hi, we can talk about like what you've done to us, but like first, let's confront you on the street in this pack, and we're not even going to ask one question about the fallout, like with your family or like how you are where

your head's at. It might have worked a little better for me if like one friend couldn't let it go and it seemed more like a personal character, But it was all of them, and so we're just like, oh, so they're right, Like it's just it was, yeah, I don't know totally. So then there's a few scenes where like Simon confronts Martin tells him to suck off. He has a scene with his mom where she's like you're still you and I love you, garnering out and she's and then the scene with the dad that we already

talked about a little. There's a great scene with Natasha Rothwell when these two bullies like confront Simon for being gay and also um Ethan, the kid that's already been out, and Natasha Rathabel comes up and she's like basically and they will, I want to make that my ringtone. I it was really good. And then they all go to the principal's office and I love that, like even the gay kids have to like gets into the principal's office

to like hear their apology. It's like we're totally putting the burden on them despite them being totally not there there. It's like, I mean, I love that scene between Ethan and Simon was one of my favorite parts. But I was like, man, Tony Hale, you really like don't know what you're doing us. At least it was clear that he was like that was the wrong thing to do, because for sure he seems so incompetent in that scene.

But I was happy that they did put Ethan and Simon together for at least one point, because Simon gives the moving an opportunity which I think it could have taken more, but the movie gets a chance to at least be like yeah, I'm like gay, black and all, so like not necessarily conforming to gender in the way that we all dress and everything like that, so it's crazy hard for me and my family will not accept me.

I'm like yours. So it's like, yeah, I thought it definitely like started to shed some light on another perspective, and I thought maybe we could have gone a little bit further with that um. But it was nice to at least hear from this kid, and it didn't just

feel like the movie was using the kid as a prop. Definitely, there was a punch of the man who played Ethan, who of course is twenty seven years old, did like a bunch of really good Clark Jones, Clark Moore, Clark Moore did, he did, He did a bunch of really good interviews around I think like really took full advantage of being a part of this movie to like speak more to that um and said kind of what you said earlier, mat of like I hope what people take

away from the movie is that even if you're in a very privileged position, it's still an impossible place to be in for a lot of people. But he also he spoke a little bit I just want to share share a quote. May I sure, may I he did? He didn't interview with teen Vogue incredible and said quote, we're used to seeing strong black characters, especially if they're effeminate. Ethan has some depth added to his character where he's not just the punchline. He has vulnerabilities just as much

as anybody else, even though he's comedic relief. He's also a source of inspiration for young people nervous about being accepted by others. So I wish I mean, it's like I wish he was a more meaningful part of the plot, even though I mean they do. He has seen a bunch of different times, um, but mostly in most of the scenes he's in, he's being bullied by those two

homophobe kids. It's true. Yeah, I mean, I guess the best I could say for that is he is always above it and like always has a funnier, better response to it. I don't know, I don't know what did you make of that character. I thought that it was interesting to way because I didn't know any out gay kids when I was in high school, so I don't really know. I didn't have a barometer for how they

get treated. It obviously, was like painful to see the kid, even though he always had a smart, funny response to it. And I like that they empowered the kid in that way and gave him his intelligence and his humor. So many kids don't have that, And you know, I wondered if, like, um, that was the representation of the average kid. Like I

think it was a good I think it was. It's nice to see for gay kids that might be closeted to watch this movie and see themselves on screen this way and them to be given this this superpower, which is his intelligence. But to me, it was like, the reality is like this kid might be really depressed, and it seems like, um, it almost seemed like when Simon turns to Ethan and it's like, my life is over, it couldn't be worse, etcetera. He almost really believes that

his life is worse than this other kid. And I don't know, you can't expect too much of this movie because it is a movie for teens and it is like a big studio film and it's supposed to be you know, mainstream, But the reality of being POC and gay is like really so much different than it is to be someone like Simon, and then also at the end of the movie, well, I guess you'll you'll you'll say, you'll say who Blue is? But Blue is black in

the movie. And also just the reality of like there's just so many more things that are going to be reality that they deal with. And I wondered if the movie wasn't The movie was so blissfully diverse, but with that kind of diversity comes a whole other series of things to deal with, definite, And I wonder if the movie was using diversity in a way that was like, look, we're a diverse film, and then kind of ignoring a

lot of the realities. You know, a kid, a kid that's a kid that's like Simon, a white gay kid who's sixteen, seventeen years old. They might not be at at the point where like the person reveals themselves and they're a black kid and they he might be in the place where he's like, what is my parents going to think about this? So it kind of just felt like this whole it almost felt dumbed down in a

way so that it can be woke. So it felt like it was it felt like it was raising it's i Q. It feels like it's ignoring or not like using opportunities to make statements that would have been helpful to make it glazes stuff over. Yeah, for sure. And that was like the one the one thought I had

about the Ethan character. And I don't know how spot on this is, but just the fact that he only becomes meaningfully involved in the plot to sort of explain something to Simon, but we don't really get to see him be involved in the plot in a meaningful way where he's just like is rightfully so saying like this is my experience and like you are not the worst off of everyone, and kind of like all out and take stock of of what you do have going for you,

because you know, even though it's a difficult experience, you're you're very lucky. Which is a great scene, and I'm so glad it's there, but it's it almost feels like that character is put there and then can't participate in

any way other than to be that example. And so he's there, is an example, and then isn't really allowed to participate in the movie, which kind of sucks because he's a good character and and there's a lot there that you think, you know, there's so many characters in this movie that there could have been like real estate freed up for him, because like what if Simon was friends with the only out kid at school? Like what

would that be? I don't know, you know. They It's almost like I almost feel like saying I also want to see like love Ethan with him. But it's like you wonder if you wonder if a major studio would do that, and the answer is not, I probably would not,

at least not today, maybe in five years. I mean, you're talking about a movie that literally like has Simon have like a quote unquote gay day dream and it's him walking jauntily to like I will always know not those I want to dance with somebody while everyone wears like a bright colored T shirt and I'm like summer that, yeah, I thought about that, and he's he's like, um, well, maybe not this gay. I'm like, dude, this is not gay. This is colorful. This is not gay, Like gay is

everyone in this scene eating each other's ass? Like you like, this is not gay? And so I'm kind of thinking, like, wow, this movie like it's about homosexuality. No, you know what, it's about being gay? It's not about homosexuality. It's not about like actually reckoning with your sexuality. It's about being different socially, and it's about having secrets. That's what it's about. And so like it doesn't make any effort to pretend

like it's more than that short. You know, it's like PG, you know, and like I said, you can't expect too much of it, and like, you know, movies about like heterosexual teen romance are not about sex, well largely, but um, it can't succeed on every level that I think we'd like it to, right, I mean, yeah, it's a it's a teen movie that adheres to almost every like trope of the kind of like a teenager with a secret, which is also why I feel like people should go

easier on it, you know what I mean. It's like like, so I'm of two minds of it. It's like I can see everything that you're saying is right. Also the movie is this like it's not it's it's just not gonna Maybe it's not gonna make a social comment. Maybe it is just for more people to see themselves on screen. And if you are not in that more people, that sucks, Like I'm sorry, I hope that for everyone to be represented.

I personally hope for everyone who represented it's like Hollywood's issue, right, And it's not surprising that like for the baseline of like the first like wide released movie of this kind, for Hollywood to play it safe and be like, well, if we're going to do this and take this quote unquote risk, then he'd better be like white hot from money, and like that does make sense in terms of being the baseline of where I mean, Hollywood feels comfortable gambling.

That's not right and that's hitty and bad and I want you know, everyone wants it a love ethan and like, but it it doesn't make sense to me that this is the first like quote unquote gamble that they would take. It makes sense to me on paper, you know what I mean. I wish that Hollywood would realize that actually when people most see themselves is when the stories are the most specific. Yeah, Like, for example, something that's a phenomenon, I don't know if it was a box office phenomenon,

but it's a movie that everyone knows is precious. You don't get more specific than that. Like, it's just it's a very specific story of trauma and struggle, but it really connected with a ton of people on many levels

because it was bold enough to be that specific. So by kind of washing this story out and not allowing the intelligent conversations that would happen in real life to happen, I wonder if it actually could have made more money, if if maybe people would have been a little bit more passionate about it, because right now, the conversation we're largely having about the movie is it's like it was good. It could have been better if it felt more real, you know what I mean, which is like, you wonder

how necessary that is? Sure, we need to take another quick break, but we will be right back. Um, I'll just finish up the recap because is I like, I'm enjoying this break in format? Yeah? Yeah, we're like, you know, it's discussion integrated within the recap, but its spread. We've said it Toive. How'sn't it okay? So Simon posts on the blog after some of the you know, intensity at the school has has died down a bit. Um He posts on Creek's secrets and he says, I love Blue,

whoever you are, I want to meet you. Here's where I'm going to be after this. After Cabaret hope to see you there because I deserve a love story and you deserve a love story, and we all deserve love. He makes up with his friends. They all go to the school carnival together. He rides the ferris wheel waiting for Blue to show up. For a while, it seems like he's not going to even Martin. He offers his

guilt four dollars. He says, I love you. It's me, and then we're all in an audience like if it's him, I'm going to and then it's not him, and it's not Yeah, and he gives the ferris wheel guy. Imagine if it was the ferris wheel guy. It's like, I'm mind if I said, he gives him like a couple of dollars to keep it going for one last time, and then who shows up? And who shows up? But I enjoyed that twist. I was. I was really happy

it was him. Yeah, I liked he was my favorite candidate the same Yeah, And they kiss and he says, are you disappointed it to me? And I was like that's such a thing too, was like, you probably the kid was probably nervous because what if you can care? And he's like, oh god, never mind. Yeah, it's a real Martin Nabby situation. Right, It's worth it for me because you get that big moment of everyone cheering um while there is a queer kiss happening on screen which

never happens. But just like logistically, I'm like, oh, it's such a big ask to be like, hey, do you want to come out the entire student body, like who are all going to be gathered? Like that is so much pressure and Simon has just gone through this whole thing where he was put under too much pressure to come out publicly. And I was like, I feel like you kind of I don't know. I loved it, Yeah, I loved it because it was like I think that it was obviously a message. It's like I'm willing to

be this brave. So I think like his bravery made made him want to be brave, you know what I mean. Well, yeah, they talk about that, you know what I mean. Like I kind of loved it and I kind of got it. I could see that really happening in real life, like if one kid was if I thought of this happening, I was like that I can see being a reality. Like I was wondering like if I'm in high school, and if I was doing this and somebody was like, I'm actually gonna do this, like be here, maybe I would,

Maybe I would. I would love for that. I just was I felt I felt concerned for Blue. I hope Blue is cool with this. But they did talk about making each other brave. They inspired each other, so that does make sense. I just got nervous for him when that was a big as it's a big ask. But they also kept expressing major hesitancy of wanting the world to know his identity and everything. Question. Do you think that they continued on into college or is this a

beautiful flash in the pan from senior year. I think that they had a really nice rest of the senior year, tried to be a long distance for a short time, maybe even went too long, like six to eight months, and then it got just too hard at college where there's just so many other gay, beautiful dudes. But they they'll always tell each other in high regard and guess what, who knows, maybe they'll even maybe it's not over, maybe down the road, but they've got more growing to do.

I don't think it's one and done for these boys, because Simon says he's going to college in Los Angeles ever heard of it? I know where are you going? I bet? And you know, because like he's going to a nice college. He's probably going to US. And he does not have student loan debt that simon. I'll tell you one thing. It doesn't. He's able to go to West Hollywood guildfree ins. He's going to Hamburger, Mary's at Chapel. He is fucking you know, actually works at pump No way,

of course, of course. Anyway, So that's the story of the movie. And we covered so much, covered a lot already. It's a good, great soundtrack to We didn't say that the music is really good. A lot of bleachers. There's a lot I like about this movie, and I would like to hear your opinions, our listeners opinions on this. And we talked a little bit about how the movie handles race and kind of glosses over things that like a young queer person of color would have to deal

with it. It introduced is all these characters and then kind of glasses over the intricacies of that situation. However, it felt to me the movie normalizes people being attracted to people of different races and ethnic backgrounds without needing to draw a lot of attention to the fact that they were attracted, except for that one weird moment where Simon is like fumbling with his words. That was the one moment where there is any attention drawn to it.

They're at the Halloween party and he is still trying to pass this straight and he's talking to his friend Nick, and Nick's like, Oh, it would be so hot, and Simon's like, yeah, she's hot, but she's not really my type, not because she's black. I love black women, but I don't have a thing for black women. I just love all women. So he's like, it's like a bad joke. It seems like a bad attempt at humor, Like, oh, I'm not fetishiz right, but also not not because it's needless. Yeh, needless.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it kind of worked for me because he's in a stressful situation where he's like trying to pass so I kind of got that he was like stumbling over his Yeah, and a lot is that Abby's expense, And it's it's tricky because it's like you know that ultimately this is Martin's fault for being the worst most boat kid of all time. Like he's just like a bore

at poster come to life. But but it's like, you know, Simon does sell Abby up the river for almost I mean for what we have to think is the majority of their friendship because I haven't even known each other

this lot. Like it's just I mean, I'm glad that she stands up to him, she of all people, should have, but I don't know, yeah, she was the only one who I felt like, you got a real bone to pick with him here, Yeah, you know Nick that was just like a like cock block at best, Like Nick was not greatly Like there was no reason for Nick to turn his back on his lifelong best friend out

of nowhere. Nor was there for Leah really. I mean, although it's like, okay, she's disappointed, but again it's like she was at best inconvenience for he said like the space of a week. It must be hard to hear that the kid that you're in love with not only doesn't like you, but like it's you know, different than you've ever thought. And then there's got to be a lot of emotions that go through your mind there. But

but it's not abandonment. This is a critical time, especially with what yeah, yeah, that could be and and they do. I like that she is the first to forgive him at least, and it makes sense to me that she would be the first person to be like, no, I love you, accept you and all that, because he's like chasing her when she's like walking her dog or something,

which is I don't know. I like that scene, the reconciliations to me, at least, compared to the teen high school movies that were a thing when I was coming of age of like all those like late nineties like She's All that, Ten Things I Hate About You, Those were like the things I was watching, And none of those felt like real high school experiences or like anything that anyone was dealing with or going through because they were all based on these like crazy bets that get

way out of hand and it I never saw anything like that in my high school experience. This movie felt way more real of a depiction of the high school experience than those. At least I bought it as a high school movie. Even though the kids were looking what they looked like, I bought it. I mean, it's like where everyone's gonna be five, which is almost always going to be true. It felt pretty I mean I also, it's like none of us have been in high school for a while, so I'm like, I don't know if

this is what high school looks like. Like they had phones seems realistic to me, Like that was my bar for like does this make sense? I'm like, yeah, everyone's got fun, so clearly it's a high school. Another moment I liked, and I think this is part of why I think this movie feels a lot more realistic than a lot of it's like Teen Predecessors, is that the big romantic gesture that Martin tries to do is like very similar to the thing that we see in like

Ten Things. Yeah, he should not of dancing across the bleachers shouldn't work in that movie, though, does work to win that character back over. So I like that we see it not working. I'm imposing I'm imposing a moratorium on big gestures. They're not done forever, but I just need I just need a break. Sure, they're very aggressive, they're big, Yeah they're huge. But I hate about them is they're too big, and I crumble under pressure daily, so it's putting a lot of pressure on the subject.

It's crazy. It's like because then it's like you could do the most, like while you're performing this big thing in the football game, and then literally all people will remember is what the other person did to respond to him. That's what it's all out to. So it's really like you're defining their legacy in this moment. And I thought it was great that Abby was honest with him without you know, being like, you know, which would have been

a worst choice for that. It's so that whole thing made me think, and I'm like, this is this is probably about gender in some way where I've had multiple conversations with like my friends from high school or my friends from when I was younger that like, if something like that ever happened, or if someone ever asked you to marry them at a sports game, that we would say yes so as not to humiliate them and then later tell them, actually, I can't do that. That's what

I was protective. Yeah, I mean that was like, I don't know why I've had this. Probably every time I see a gesture like this, or you're out of sports game and it happened, You're like, even if I knew the answer is no, I would say yes to protect

his feelings and then later be like, don't do big gestures. Literally, what would actually happen if this were to happen in high school is everyone in there would be losing their ship laughing, and then the girl would probably be like, oh my god, stop and she probably would like run out, like at least this is the way it would happen

in my high school, so you would run away. But my assessment of this moment is kids are not this mature, Like she's not just going to measurably sit there and be like, I'm so sorry, but I just don't think of you like this, but I would like to be friends. Like no, no one's doing And that's the moment everyone's like, she's twenty seven, Oh my god, why is she here? I don't know. I feel like teens this day might might have done that. I don't know. It is okay

for me. I thought it was a good aspirational scene of like, okay, best case scenario for everyone involved. That is a cool way to handle it. But they sort of lightly touch on how Martin becomes target of bullying after that, and there's just like a bunch of shitty

memes about like shut down or like whatever. But I think I think realistically Abby would also be the target of some harassment based on that of like you fucking humiliated him, which is I think we're that whole mentality of like I would say yes even if that's not how I felt comes from of like you shouldn't humiliate someone in public, even if they're putting you on the

spot by Yeah. Here's a few other scenes that I really liked the hetero coming out montage where Simon's talking about like why is the onus on queer people to have to come out? Like why can't straight people like you know this unfair societal expectation that's set up in some great parent acting in that in that a little bit, and then we already touched on this a little bit, but the scene where miss Albright is like yelling at the homophobic bully kids, that just energized to me for

that was that was necessary. We love that character. And then she went all the way and yes, into infamy. And then I also really liked the scene where Simon yells at Martin for outing him because he's saying stuff like you took everything away from me in terms of like I get to Yeah, it's like I get to this should have been on my terms, how I do it, when I do it, to whom I do it, etcetera, And you took that away from me. And Martin, I

mean that character is really well written. I think we all hate him rightfully so, but but I was just like, oh my god, he's going to log into the in cell board and then we're fucking screwed. Martin is the type in cells have bora posters. It's proof, It's just proof positive. I also like a large part of the movie is seeing a lot of like male vulnerable. Okay,

so here's the thing. There's there's not that much to talk about in terms of the representation of women in this movie, which makes sense because it's a movie about a gay it's not called Love Alexis Rebecca Simon, So there's not a whole lot for us to talk about in those terms. But the things that I think are worth talking about are like the idea of masculinity, and

you know it does right, I am not sure. Yeah, it's so weird because I'm so taken in by this movie that I wasn't paying as close attention that they should have it did call attention to the fact, I'm like, why aren't Leah and Abbey remotely friends for people who seem to be together of the time, they don't speak,

we don't know. That was like one thing that bothered me about Abby's character in the way it was written was that as much as we know she's like, well rounded, she's a great person and also hot, she they like they do sort of like guys gal her a little bit because she has no female friends that we see. Even though she's around, She and Lea around or anything, hardly see them interact. Yes, yeah, which I know is like, I mean, that's not going to happen in this movie.

It's not their movie. But I mean it was just weird a little bit more of them interacting. Not the worst thing to ever happen, but real quick about like male vulnerability that we see which we often don't see in most movies. Well, first of all, like Simon, the whole story revolves around him not being secure enough in his sexual identity to come out. We see like Nick

being insecure about his like sexual inexperience. He's like, you know, I've only had sex with one time, right, Things were slipper United didn't put my dick in the right place, and I'm insecure, but it was cute. I really liked that. And then here's something that rubbed me the wrong way a little bit where Martin, as he's seeking help from Simon, say something like, I don't want your help changing me.

I want your help getting Abby to like me for me, which I think is an important thing to happen, but I hate that it comes from this character who were meant to hate and who is wrong every other time in the movie. I wish we had seen It's almost like the movie didn't decide if who that kid really was, Like was he just annoying and like he's a good person at heart but he's annoying, or is he like chaotic evil He's like a vicious blackmailer who is blackmailing

and you're supposed to feel bad for him. At certain points where it does feel a little I don't know this whole movie, and it's like it is what it is, kind of like what you're saying, but there are elements of it. I'm like, this is very focused groups to the point where I'm like, I'm not sure exactly who

you're supposed to be that's what it is. It just feels like it was trying to be too many things for two different people, and it's like, I don't know, maybe the villain could have just been a villain, Like that's fine, he's irridamable, great, but like, don't make him this sympathetic, like, oh, he didn't mean to out you and funk your life up. It's like, No, the whole four dollars thing at the end, I'm like, that's not

a redemption. He doesn't need sounds horrible, Like if you want to make arrangements for Butt six, you know emails like yeah, God, does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I would say that I'm going to shout out the soundtrack again. The sounds gave me everything I love. It's like late eighties early nineties throwbacks down. I love that song wild Heart. I love that song Strawberries and Cigarettes that Troy Sevan does on the soundtrack. It's really good.

It's very evocative. It seems like they're almost like referencing John Hughes. But yeah, by doing that a brave observation by me, Jamie that I'm sure. And it was one of those movies where it was like maybe made maybe twice as good of a movie as that actually is. With the music. Oh yeah, I thought it actually like really served like an atmospheric purpose, which is what it

should do. Wow. I think Alfred Willina could have played Simon. Sure, Honestly, I think they could really strategy make a sixteen year old man play a queer teenager. Now that his progress, it's so funny to even think about Simon as being queer because he's just so straight the whole time. Well okay, stylized completely straight. That is one thing I wanted to touch on because we talked a little bit about this.

Another criticism around this, Yeah, well he's just like, you know, he's the definition of walking the world and with complete privilege. I mean, he doesn't even need to code switch. That's just who is who he is, like to play Devil's advocate. And again I'm coming from a place of not being a gay man. Uh, it needed to be said, Caitlin. I know that people have been wondering that I've been am I blue? Was I blue? I don't know? Maybe I anyway, So we talked a little bit about this

on their recent DEBS episode. But in that episode, I appreciated that because any time like a lesbian is portrayed in a mainstream movie, usually it is someone who presents as very butch. You know, they're they're made to adhere to these like rigid stereotypes. And similarly, when gay men are portrayed in mainstream movies, they're usually presented in such a way that they're very flamboyant, because I think Hollywood's like, well, how will anyone know they're gay unless we make them

so flamboyant. Here's what I would say about it. It's like, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. Because if you depict the kid as being more gay acting quote unquote right, then you get a bunch of people that are like, well, there we are again depicted as being this way. And then if you depict the kids being very straight acting, especially when he's played by a straight actor in real life, you get this thing

of like that feels like a raiser. But there are tons of gay men that act like simon, lots of gay men I wore masculine. It's hard to find a balance, and I think it speaks to it speaks less to what these individual films are doing, and more to the fact that there just isn't and hasn't ever been enough representation period because every single time one character comes out,

we put all the weight in the world on it. Like, for example, when I was growing up and there was Will and Grace, it was like, are you a Will or a Jack? And we didn't know what it was like to be anything else, So it was either you are really straight, acting to where you would never know and you even even the people that you date are

like really even more straight acting like cops. I don't know if you remember Will's boyfriend played by Bobby kind of Ali, who was like this like super butch cop or your Jack, who essentially is a like a joke, you know what I mean, Like he was abroad sweeping stereotype.

So I think as a result of that, it's hard to gauge like whether or not this movie made a mistake or not, because like there just isn't enough representation, and you can't say that people aren't out there and are gay and they act like that, because they do. There's a whole spectrum as it turns out. I don't know, I think, like this is weird to say, but like as someone who sort of identifies as being somewhere in

the middle. When I want to turn it on, I can be very flamboyant, and then the way I'm speaking to you guys right now, you know, I don't know if someone would quote unquote no, it's just hard because like we can't see ourselves. All we see are like each other, and then depictions of ourselves in media, and we're just not up there that much. So I think, like I don't necessarily have too much of a problem

with with this particular movie in that regard. Maybe maybe maybe there's something to the fact that they have a straight actor playing him. Yes, which is like a case by case it always feels tough. Yeah, I was gonna ask how you felt about well, because I'll say this, like, for example, for the auditions that I go on, it's hard because a lot of the characters are just like stereotypes, like and you can feel them trying on the page to not make it like that, like in the breakdown,

it won't be like gay and he knows it. You know, he wears a fucking crazy scarf. He loves to wave his finger. It's not like that. But it's like whenever anyone writes girl comma in any line, it's like, Okay, you try too hard, you know what I mean. But it's at least interesting and at least good to see them trying. But I don't think we're ever going to get to the point where we're where we're not precious about each and every character depiction up there until we

see more. And unfortunately, like I'm not being offered to play a lot of straight parts, and I don't know a lot of gay actors that are out there openly gay who are just routinely booking straight roles. So when it feels like the vice versa is true, often it's frustrating because there's tons of gay actors out there that

are just as talented as these straight guys. And yet Heath Ledger and Jake Jillen Hall, allegedly straight actors um performing and broke Back Mountain like the seminal gay romance of our time, and then to see that continue to do that as an eighteen and like Love Simon is like the gay mainstream movie and Nick Robinson is playing it and he's straight. I'm not saying they all didn't

do a great job. It's just about representation. Yeah, and and the fact that I mean this, I believe that this was adapted by and originally written by, like it was written by top to bottom straight people. Yeah, the director Greg Berlante is gay, so there's that. But like you said with the focus group comment, you know this was filtered through a straight line that this is essentially the Abbey of like of like you know, it's like a gay thing for straight people. Um, so it just

feels like that's even named abbey. I was surprised to learn the novel that this movie is based on was written by a woman I thought for sure a gay man, but it was written by a straight lady, which is like, yeah, I mean with with stories like that, it's so hard to find a story, and I think it does speak to like the amount of pressure that is put on

queer stories because there's just not enough of them. But it's like, I feel like you can always trace it back to a pretty heteronormative source, which is just when you actually lived that experience. Okay, So I really very closely almost went through this exact experience, like I wasn't out it in high school. But like the way that he goes about his life the interest he like claims to have, Like I didn't not see myself in it, and so that's why I was a little bit sensitive

to the criticism. But yet now having like time with the movie, I can see the criticism you wish because it really got it, really was there. You wish it had really gotten it, you know what I mean. And I do think with like maybe three or four more like gay creatives in high positions there, or like maybe even a gay actor, like just a suggestion could have been made of like I feel like he's too upset here, or he's not upset enough here, you know what I mean.

Like there was some specific emotional movement moments where I was like watching him act the situation and I was like, it's so specifically something else, you know what I mean, just as an actor watching and I was like, this is all on the page, but you're not getting it right now, or just like or like you're getting it right now, but the script isn't allowing you to say

what it really is. Like there was a couple of times where it all came together, like him saying like this was my thing to do and you took that from me. That's really good, you know what I mean.

That was like right there, But then there was like moments like with the dad and the mom where I just felt like more emotional response was needed, or just like little tiny things like where it just didn't feel measured in the right way, where I was like, chemically, I think that this actor just maybe is just not capable of acting this scenario. But I found him very

appealing overall. So focus group wise, for everyone, the movie works for me who went to the specific experience and it is a specific experience and should be treated as such. I could just see the little things that weren't right, So so it's like, yes, I'm I happy the movie exists. Is it like a fucking Grand Slam home run to me? No, because it wasn't as specific as it should have been, which is the point I made before about like that's when you really get at the heart of these things

and move people, is when you actually get specific. Because I was more moved by Precious than I was by Love Simon, and I didn't I I'm not. I didn't go through that, you know what I mean. But I can appreciate the specificity and the attention to detail that goes into something like that, whereas this was like, Okay, you made you made a movie that tried to make a lot of money and make straight people happy and make them feel good for seeing it, which I am

guilty of, but but you should feel like that. It should make people feel good. Yeah, I mean, it's there's so many double I don't know. Yeah, with with this, yeah, it's a tough one. And it all comes down to, like I said before, they're just not being enough. So this is the first one, and I'm happy it was the first one, but because you know what, you get into like a lot of the nitty gritty about like what actually goes down in Ethan Ethan's life, and then it is a sad movie, you know what I mean.

But I do think like this movie opens the door up to this conversation, and therefore, because this conversation exists, that movie is more likely to be seen. And I do think our I should be open to the reality of what it's like to be a queer person of color.

I don't think it is like and so you know, it's even been eye opening for me in the last few years, Like in my late twenties, I'm much much closer with my close friends that are gay and also people of color, and it's just like, you know, the sexual realities of that, the romantic realities of that, the social realities of that, the the realities of that in terms of online dating, in terms of useach of the apps, it's like very dark and I we haven't even touched

on it. My best friend is a gay man. Brag is no, he just bought a house. He purchased with the house um. But when he was single and on Grinder, he would show me all these profiles of white guys being like no blacks, no fats, no Asians, is the popular mask only, like all that kind of stuff, And I was like, wow, there's still a lot of discrimination within a community that is marginalized and being repressed. So that that's the disease amongst especially white gaze is you know,

they have this narrative in their heads. We have this narrative in our heads of we've been oppressed. We think it might be as painful or equal to anyone else who's been oppressed. And then when we do overcome that quote unquote oppression um, which most of us do in our teens or early twenties, we then feel entitled to saying, well, I've been through enough, now I'm allowed to have my

quote unquote preferences. And so a lot of people aren't ready to reckon with the fact that, like they have racism in them just because you've been oppressed in terms of a society like that that you're a sexual minority or your your sexual preferences are keep you in the minority. Like they think the they're like better than racism, they

think that they're immune to it. Yeah, it festers, and of course, I mean we like with white feminism, you know what I mean, Like it just doesn't include everyone. And so then you're on these apps and you think to yourself, like we should be the last people where this is like thriving. But like you can walk in the streets and not hear something racist. If you go on these apps, you will see something racist, you will, I mean. And then there's all the like transphobia within

the queer community. You know, there's all kinds of like you know, discrimination within these communities. And it feels like we're making strides, feels like things are getting a little better.

But and I think that the movie Existing is a good thing because I think ultimately like, and I know that's not even what we're debating, but um, like, it has been a debate, like amongst gay friends of mine who really don't like the movie, because I think there's a mentality that this movie like purports to represent more people than it does, and I don't think that's true. I think that this movie is telling a story about

a kid coming to terms with the sexuality. Um But, like I said, because it's the only one, we put all this weight on it. And I think that because this movie exists, we're able to have these conversations about what it gets right about what it doesn't. And that's film criticism, which is for many people what advances the cinematic form anyway. So I've seen the conversation truly, especially

in this room. Yes we're such heroes, but it's it's been very interesting to see the conversation about this movie. Like I had. I talked with someone one time I really didn't like this criticism of it, but he said that he felt that the Natasha Rothwell character was a magical Negro and I was like, that's a really interesting, weird to say, and he was like, the movie uses her to like save the day and it's not fair. And I was like, yeah, but what are you saying,

like if that part was played by Chelsea Handler? Would would would it make it like you could not change the script, and would it make the movie stronger? And so now, and that's when I think there was a real fever picture on this movie where in the gay community conversations like this we're happening, that we're truly picking it apart bit by bit, And I think that is not helpful, you know what I mean? Because I think that's Hasha Rothwell is amazing in the movie, and I'm

sure she feels fine being in it. I'm sure she doesn't feel utilized in that way. We just want her to get paid as much as humanly possible. I was just like, I was just like, it's odd to me to like use that criticism against this movie, but that's what was happening, and that's what happens. I think when there's just not enough representation, that's all there to talk about, then we'll talk about it. I mean, the thesis of this discussion and our whole podcast is we need more

and better representation. We okay, let's okay, bachtel test. I think there are a few scenes that come close. I tried to document all of them, but I think I might have missed some. But like, there's a scene where the mom is like, let's watch the affair, and then Simon says, we can't watch the affair as a family, and the mom says why not, and then the sister chimes in, Norah, we know her name, she says, because it's all about sex, and then mom says, god forbid.

We see people make love. So it's like a conversation where men are present and then also contributing to the conversation. But there's like a two line exchange where just women are tugging yeah, and they need to be alone, not nerve version of it. All these different caveats, I feel like maybe yeah, I feel I'm I'm not so quick to say this one counts. And it's also based on yeah, it's also based on our response Simon has to it and they're talking about head roast sex, right, so probably not.

There is a scene where Abby says I just found a press on nail in my salad, and then Abby and Leah at the same time say Debbie. They're accusing Debbie of her nails. I'm so sick of these passes. I think I don't know how to just be like, who is that fucking judge who was like, I can't define porn, but I know it when I see it. That's how I feel about the Betel Test at this point. I'm like, I'm no more of these bullshit passes. Yeah, and then there is a scene where Leah says, thanks

for letting me stay over. Simon's mom says, you've been staying over for ten years. You don't have to thank us, and then Leah says, oh, yeah, that's so that as close as it comes insightful, know, I know, I know, I'm surprised women don't interact more in this. I don't know if I'm surprised. I guess based on how many female characters there are, we would have a few more interactions betwe mean women, but we only have like these and then a couple that don't pass the test. And

I guess that's not any objective of the movie. But there are always like opportunities to make this, and I feel like Leah and Abbey are the biggest missed opportunity there. They're around each other the whole time. Yeah, and friends and allegedly. And also I'm realizing right now that the mom and Leah discussing her staying over that can't pass the Bechtel test because they're talking about the house and that house identifies as a male. I think it's very big.

It's making itself known, and it's like taking up a lot of up a lot of space. Like and also the subtext is like, thanks for letting me stay over with Simon, which also why was that allowed? I'm like, I wish my mom when I was seventeen playing while they were in that room. Is there a boat in the body? I'm on a week for I was like, fine, want to let me know. I was like, this is like a sex see adults romantic song. Very the whole

film was horny, and I like that about it. Oh yes, I'm fully I think it would have may be more uncomfortable if the actors were underage, but they were so clearly forty years old. I'm like, this is great. There, No, the younger sister was older than they actually were, like drama school together. Yeah, she she's in the affair Like that was an inside joke. Oh gosh, okay, so let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Oh, that's true,

this is true. It's not fair for this right because I will. I would give it a five though, would you? Yeah, because I think that the female characters that presents are all three dimensional, I would agree with that, I do, you know what I mean? They're not the focus. They're not driving the story, or at least if they are, it's passively because it's Martin like black Aileen Simon because he wants to funck Abby. So they're not necessarily very

active characters. But the way they're written, the way they're presented, I do feel like they're dynamic, interesting, multidimensional characters. Yeah. They in terms of just being in a script and being supporting characters. They're written well and I helped that the story. And they're not functional in a way that it feels like we're losing their integrity as characters, you

know what I mean. The mom is like progressive and lovely and a good mom, you know, but she's also interested in other things besides being a mom, which is something we don't see in a lot of these movies. And it's so rare that we know what the mom's job is, and we don't know what the dad's job is. That never happens, and it seems like, I mean, based on that unless it was like a cut scene, it seems like she's the breadwinner of the family, which is cool.

And also, you know the character of Abby like she does she stays true to herself the whole time, Like she doesn't just allow herself to be talked about or like dealt if by the men. She is truthful to herself. You know, Leah the character, she says what she feels and it's well performed and you get the sense that she'll go on to be a dynamic person. Yeah, there there was I the word I think about. I mean, it's like Anne, it's kind of rare that you know

Simon's two female friends better than you know Nick. I know almost nothing about Nick. He plays soccer, he had sex ones, like that's all we know about him. Really, um, where you do have like full scenes where I appreciated the extra work going into Abby's character of like, Okay, she's new, she's from a lower class background. We know she has like her dad is an alcohol like these are all things I think fifteen years ago we would

never find out about those characters. And the same with Leah, of you know, I mean, I can strongly identify with her being the long suffering, being in love with her gay best friend and just being like no, but like it's played responsibly. I'm glad that. I mean. The only thing that made me feel weird is Leah turning her back on Simon in his moment of utmost need. That was very put off by. But I'm glad that Abby.

I mean, Abby I think is like the best female character in the story because she she is always like almost to a point where it's unrealistic for a teenager to be so like mature and always knows the right thing to do. Um. But it's I mean, it's like if we're making a movie to set an example for teenagers, which in theory this movie would be, then she's great and I think it works works well, you know, and and good for the little girl. She got a queens

and art. Yeah, incredible. I hope she gets better at cooking, because women be cooking women. But to me that there's enough of like yeah, yeah, I I think I'm going to give it. I'm not prepared to give it a five. I think I'm going to give it maybe a three and a half because you, well, we we should, we

should ask that question more. Yeah, we'll be because we in our ratings we also take into account like the representation of people of color, of queer people, of other marginalized groups of which we almost never see on screen.

But because as we've talked about, like there's an introduction of at least two queer people who are also people of color, and the movie glossing over their experience, their specific experience, I feel like that could have been I mean, the movie probably should have been like Love Bram or Love Ethan, Like I mean, I think maybe we'll get there someday, but get that, you know what I mean, Like, so it will get that we're slowly progressing is a

people in a culture and in the film industry. But um, and then, I don't know, this is tricky just because like women aren't the focus. It's a tricky movie too. But if you're going to have a movie that where women aren't the focus, great that it's a queer male love story, Like that's what that best I could hope for.

I think I'm going to go for on it. But I mean the only it's weird though, because it's like my My only criticism of the female characters is I feel the same way about the male characters is that they just feel a little bit uncanny Valley overly workshopped

in certain places. But I mean, it's again, it's just like it's a movie for young people, and so I think it can be almost dangerous to like show a young female character being completely off the rails if there's not the real estate in that movie to address it. So I don't know, I thought, I thought that the women we see are great. Yeah, well, Matt, thank you so thank you so much for guys for having brilliant You know, we lifted the band for good reason, but

it's back on. But Aristotle still shout out to Aristotle, shout out. What would you like to plug? Where can people find you online? You guys can follow me at Matt Rogers though it's Matt Rogers th h O. Or you can listen or and in addition to that, you can listen to my podcast Last Culture Asta with Bowen Yang where we discuss pop culture and wow, I've heard of it, talk about it. It's one of my favorites. Thank you. You can follow us at pectel cast on

the platforms, all the platforms. You can join our Patreon five bucks a month to extra episodes a month. Kind of incredible. You're gonna want to be a matron of our matriarch, going to want to join the matriarchy? Uh? And then yeah, our merchanes on t public and you know review us on the tunes. Oh yeah, I love our reviews and they're just like, like, I get it, I'm stupid. It always makes me feel so bad. Oh, it's cutting reading. I just on the way here. I

read a bunch. I was a guest on another podcast and I read the reviews and it was like, oh my god, people hate me so much. Caitlin has great self control with that kind of stuff. I have no self control. I read everything and I feel I'm addicted to feeling horrible. We should all be more like setting a great example. Look, I teach classes on how to be me. Yeah, thank you again so much for being here, Matt, and thank thanks for listening. And we'll be here next week. Bye.