Love & Basketball with Zainab Johnson

we done to this five thousand? Um, and women have been portrayed well in four of them. I think conservatively did like it was pretty good, and then some people that it's like, you know, somewhere over fifty percent good. But then you're like, but still a failing score. Anyways, Um, we use the Bechtel test or Okay, here's what I want to try to do because of today's movie, Um, Bechtel basketball. Can we combine the two of best basketball or Bechtel ball test? I mean we could thoughts? No, Okay,

I like love and basketball. Yeah that's so that's this movie. We use the Bechtel test, though, to initiate a larger conversation about the representation of women in film and The Bechtel Test, of course, is a media metric created by cartoonist Holes and becktel Uh, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, and it requires that two female identifying characters who have names must speak to each other about something other than a man for at least two lines of dialogue. That's

our metric. Theoretically, they could talk about love or basketball and it could pass the Bechtel tests. That's true, but it depends the the Bechtel ball tests. Fine, I'm going to figure this out by the end of the episode. Okay, I trust you, Thank you so much. So we are talking about love and basketball. We have a guest, of course, she is a hilarious comedian and we love her dearly. It's zab Johnson. Hello here, So what's your your history,

your relationship with Loving Basketball. I love the movie Loving Basketball? Do Basketball? The movie Basketball? The movie Love Basketball. But I used to play basketball. I used to play basketball in junior, high school and high school, in a little bit of college. And I saw Loving Basketball when I was in high school. Maybe the w NBA had just Love and Basketball came out. Maybe the first year the w NBA prepared not long after. Yeah, very close, right.

Love the Basketball came out two thousand. The w n B a I think, was established in nineties, but I guess that I was just like reading in the background. I guess the first draft of the movie was written before the w NBA existed, so they like changed the ending to include anyways very soon after. Yeah. Well, you know, it felt like a movie at the time. When I saw it, it felt like a movie that was being

made for me. I've seen a lot of movies, like as a teenager, and then when I saw that movie, I just felt like, Oh, somebody wrote a movie from me and I and that's why I liked it. Yeah. I felt that way about like Benditt, like Beckham, because I was a soccer player, okay, and I well, I didn't have the same exact experience as the protagonist of that movie. I was like, Oh, a soccer movie starring women. Yeah. I feel that way about Black Swan. Yeah, yeah, what's

your history with this? I had honestly never seen it until we prepped. Yeah, I somehow I missed it, and I'm sorry everybody, but I have seen it three times now since I found out we were going to do this episode, and I'd rather enjoy it. Yeah, it is one of the best movie soundtracks ever in life, and one of the best songs that plays in the movie. It's not on the soundtrack, and I hate when they do that, like it's one of those Maxwell songs. It's

that Maxwell song. It's there's like two big songs in the movie where it's where he you know, he's like She's like, I'll pelay you for your heart, which come on, come on. It's like we watched it together yesterday. I was fully crying. It's just it is just so it's such for me. It's like I was in a relationship while I was playing basketball, and it felt like a lot of times the two were intertwined. And so when I watched that movie, I just feel like, I just

feel like it's such a good representation. I think of what a lot of female athletes go through. I also, I feel like I wasn't seeing a lot of coming of age stories that were all black cast and like really good representation. And I feel like loving love hip hop, oh my god, loving basketball. I feel like it gave me that too. I feel like it gave me representation in so many different ways, and I was very appreciative

for that. And we've talked about this on the podcast before, but so few mainstream coming of age stories focus on people of color, black girls, black people at all. Uh, it's mostly white people. And the story does like Triple Duty, where it's like it's a female story, it's a black story, and it's like an athletic story that isn't just focused on it like yeah, it's just this movie has at all.

This is a big sleepover movie for me. I feel like this would be in the regular I don't know when I would have first seen it, but I know that it was like I played basketball when I was younger, like through seventh grade and then stuff, but it was mostly just because I was tall and around. And then the second that they're like it also requires skill, I was like I should probably just bow out, um, but I really like, like I just this would I feel like, you know, at a sleepover, you do like a double

feature with your friends. This would like often be in the rotation and so all the even the moments that are like maybe a little bit corny, it is still like I'll I'll play you for your heart, like that's I love it. So much. It like, yeah, I don't know, this movie still gets me all worked up. I love that. I feel like this is like a very specific like flashpoint of like what my into this movie was. But when I first saw it, the Proud Family must have been on the Disney Channel to either of you ever

watched The Proud Family? Not really, but I know it's It's start Kyla Pratte Yeah exactly. So I was like, Oh, that's Penny Proud in the movie, and so I was like, yeah, I'll watch this. Um, yeah, it's it. I have a lot of love for it. I think that movie introduced Kyla Pratt was this like her first believe it was her first big because I just didn't know what she looked like. She just sounded I just knew her voice from a cartoon. Yeah. I was like, no, that's Penny Proud. Yeah,

she's so good in it too. Everyone like all the performances in this movie here. So I had this interview very recently that Sini Lathan's who the art of Monica in the movie. Um, she said that she wasn't the chosen actress for the film, Like whoever they wanted they couldn't get. Yeah, I did a little bit of research. There's a pretty good like oral history that was written about love and basketball. I think on it's like fifteenth

anniversary a couple of years ago. And yeah, it sounds like Sana and the director, Gina Prince Bythewood, had a really like contentious onset relationship because so I didn't know if she was cast for months and months, and it was like this weird like her life was on hold. She was waiting to find out. It sounded like Gina was trying to Gina was like trying to cast Serena Williams was trying to cast an athlete in teaching them how to act instead of teaching an act or how

to play. And I think that there was some production like, no, you should teach an actor how to play because and you should definitely teach an actor how to play. Yeah, like it's it's I feel like it rarely works out when you try to teach an athlete how to act suxceptions, but especially if you're gonna get an athlete that's not even the same sport, that doesn't make sense, like this isn't a tennis movie. No shade to Serena, But I had to teach you two things? Yeah, why not you

teach the actor one thing? Yeah, so it sounded yeah, it sounded like she had or so now I had, like it was like given a lot to push up against straight. Yeah, she kind of felt rejected. And I think it's very hard or any of us actors. I'm an actor, not professional performer. What the reason why I asked is because if you are, you know how it feels when when you feel like you're wanted as a as an artist period. You know how it forget it

as a person. You know how it feels to be in a space and feel like you're wanted to be there, versus being in a space where you feel like you're not wanted, and then having to be spectacular when you feel unwanted. You know, and I imagine that that's very difficult. But I would have never known watching with the performance she turns in is so incredible and like so but

her own mar Epps were really dating. I know, I was telling Caitlin before because I hadn't rewatched it in like a couple of years, but I was like, yeah, that's that like virginity scene with them is like I have like such a specific memory of seeing it because I think at whatever time I saw it, when I was like eight or nine, it was like the hottest thing I'd ever witnessed in my life. And so I was like, wait, is that scene like really hot? And Caitlin was like, I don't know. I mean it's the

sex scene and then, but I don't know. In my head it was like the most I mean, yeah, and when you see it as a senior formative years that scene is yeah. I think. I don't know if I think it's hot now, but I definitely. I mean I was a teenager when I saw it, and I felt like it was hot. I was wanted a hotter thing that I had ever seen, yeah until that point. But also I felt like there was so much like vulnerability

in that scene. Didn't I want to talk all about that? Yeah, it didn't even when I watch even if I watch it now, because Loving Basketball is one of those movies where if it comes on, I'm just gonna watch it, like if I'm in a hotel. It's like, I don't know where I was going today, but I'm watching Loving Basketball. Thanks T and T or whoever whoever plays it. But I just I just feel like when I watch it. That is such a typical story. You have this best friend who's a boy, but he doesn't see you as

like in a track. You know, he doesn't see you as like this possible love interest. And then you like step out one day and he like sees you and you've had this like love for him. I don't know, it's just as old as time. Yeah. So then when they did it, I was just like, yeah, y'all gotta do I very rarely root for people to do it in movies, especially like young people. It makes me a little bit uncomfortable, and I was rooting. I was like, yeah, let's get come on, and it's like one of those

starts this love this, let's start this. However, after already the love part of love and basketball, I need the love there, and I feel like watching it now, I'm like, oh, they're both visibly like, I don't feel that weird about it, Like it's all right. If if they actually looked seventeen, maybe i'd feel good about it. But I was like, oh, they're you know, they're adults. They're supposed to be teenagers, but they're adults. It's all good here, Uh, should I

get into the group the recap. Yeah, so the structure, we've got a rather than a three structure this time around. It's a four quarter structure becauause basketball is split up into four quarters. Because I guess the only sport that's really built for the three art structure is hockey. Oh, they're only three periods in a hockey game. Yes, Well, where's the hockey movie that exactly follows structure? It's fine? Okay, So the first quarter. We open in nineteen I think

eighty one, with Monica as a kid. She has moved to a neighborhood, yes, and she wants to play basketball with some neighborhood boys, including Quincy, and they're like, um, you're a girl. Girls can't play basketball girls, and she's like, screw you, I'm going to be the first woman in the NBA. And then she plays two on two with them and she's really really good. And then Quincy's ego is threatened by this and he pushes her down and her face gets scuffed up, which I guess gives her

a scar that she has for her life. Yeah. Um, but then the next day he's like, wait, you're cool. Would you be my girl? And she says yes, and then they kiss and then he counts down. He's like, we need to kiss for five seconds, and he counts it on his fingers. It's really cute, but then almost it is. It is. But then almost immediately after that, um, they break up because Quincy is again his ego is hurt because she won't ride on the back of his bike.

And then she's like, well, your dad plays for the worst team in the NBA, because his dad is also a professional basketball player for the Clippers, I think, and you get context for why I mean, not that it excuses it, but you get context for like why Quincy treats women the way he does pretty quickly, because then you just see his dad and then you're like, he's like, okay, my my role model loves basketball and is mean to ladies.

Got it? Got it. So then we move on to the second quarter, where Monica and Quincy are in high school. They both play basketball for their high school teams. I do love that moment when like the movie jumps ahead in time and then you see the like the person you know is the main actor. I don't know, it's just the next that you're like, oh, there she is.

She's on the poster and Monica is hoping to get recruited to play basketball in college UM, but she has a bit of a temper and her coach often benches her because of it, and she doesn't get to play as much as she would like. UM. She and Quincy are friends. They watch each other's basketball games, but they're not in love. Or maybe they are in love, but like they're not doing anything about it their secretly in love.

They argue a lot. There's a lot of tension the queens and teasing each other because Quincy is always like dating someone else and making out with a bunch of different girls because like, sorry, Quincy's like a star. And I feel like in the second quarter, first of all,

let me just go back the first quarter. Just as much as they show Quincy's example and his father, they show Monica's example in her mother, and it's very important as to why her temper is, how how it is, why she's so outspoken, why she is the fighter that she is right. But then when they go to the second quarter, I feel like they do a really good job of showing how little celebration women get for being

as good at something. It's like Quincy is this star, right, and so he's going to get everything that you can think a star athlete Mail is going to get, right, and then Monica is also this star, but she doesn't. She seems like she's having the hardest time. And I feel like that was a very accurate representation totally of what sports are like, what life is like, just for men and women doing the same thing right, right, because it's like very clear that Monica is doing the exact

same thing at the same like caliber. But yeah, I mean, she's getting pushed back from her mom because she's not quote unquote feminine enough. She's getting pushed back from her sister, she's getting pushed back from Quincy, who is like I mean, I feel like, especially there's a lot of people in her life criticizing her for not being more interested in dating when it's like she's got a full plate, like her anger doesn't seem like it's justified in all the

forces that are around her. But then by contrast, yeah, like Quincy is getting like all the accolades and all the recruiters love him, and he's like getting all the women, and like even the girls to try and befriend her are not befriending her because they think she's cool or talented, they're befriending her to simply try and get a date with right right, which is like, yeah, of course she's fucking pissed off, Like it's yeah. That reminds me when

I was in high school playing soccer. Um, the women's soccer team scored more points throughout the like the fall season one year than the football team. And football, when you score a point it's six or seven points. I don't really know how football works, but like, the members of the football team are still like hot ship that everyone loved and like. And then everyone's like girls soccer,

who wants to watch that? And it's like we're doing better than the football team and one of their touchdowns is six times as many points as one of our goals. But you know what, you know, the only people who can fix that are women. Everything that men ever do in life that is gonna sound crazy, especially as young boys, especially as like adolescents, is that is to get women.

So the way women support men's sports and a go after men, if we did that for women, it would only bring it would bring everybody around, because everybody wants to be where women are. It just it just especially in high school. Yeah, we're the hot girls. We're going there. Oh, they're at the girls soccer game. Then we gotta be at the girls soccer game. And then together they're like, oh, wait, these girls are really good. That's true. We have to travel in herds, we have to get Yeah. Damn. So

we didn't have the cheerleaders cheering at artemes. Yeah, I know, because we didn't have cheerleaders at our games with the boys had cheerleaders, um at the basketball games. Oh, that's so frustrated. It's depeated. We had them if our game was on a day where the boys weren't playing. But if it was, if we ever played when they played, then the priority. Yeah, I mean tracks. But then we

want a city championships, right exactly. Anyway, So so she and Quincy their friends, they argue a lot, and then it's the last game of the season. It's like the championship game for Monica, but her team loses by one

point and she's devastated. Uh. Then there's this spring dance where Monica's sister, Lena, played by Regina Hall, sets Monica up with this cute college boy who she knows, and then Quincy also goes to the dance with Shawnee Gabrielle Union's character, and Quincy and Monica both act like they're not into each other, but they very clearly are, because they're staring at each other while they're dancing with other people and there's an in sync song playing even though

it's but you know, yeah, I just got paid Friday nights. I'm like, I could pull up any song from Bye Bye Bye from memory. I like, now, are you sure the instinct didn't make this song over? I'm pretty sure. I Actually I should check because I was like, but it sounded like it was justin timber Lay's voice. I can't tell, right, Okay, I'll triple check it because I was like, wait, is what what? Anyways, let's let's table it. Okay,

I'll look at it. And then they both go home after the dance and they're still next door neighbors and they're like, hey, she opens a letter from USC saying that she's been recruited to play basketball for them, and he's like, I'm going there too, and then they kiss, and then they go into her room and have sex. Then we cut to the third quarter. They are both

freshman at USC, they're in love. They are together. They're both playing basketball for the teams at USC, and Monica's coach and a few of her upperclassmen teammates are giving her a hard time because she's like, you know, a rookie. But again, Quincy is having a very easy time and everyone loves him and the fans, the coaches, he's he's having a very easy go of it. But then he finds out that his dad was having an affair, or

maybe it's currently having an affair. And some of my favorite any time we're talking about this yesterday, but anytime there's like they're cheating. Look, and then private detective photos come out and they're like the most incriminating thing humanly possible and also impossibly close. I love movie private detective photos.

I mean, there's no question about what it's like, high resolution like and whenever you see like real p I photos, you're like, oh, I sort of see what's going on there, but it's like high resolution Mr Hall State like committing a deed. Um Anyways, So what happens after that? He needs Monica to be there for him, but it's important for her to make her few right. She is having to balance both love and basketball and at this one moment when he's kind of, you know, his family is

being torn apart, he's having a rough time. She's like, well, I can't be there for you right now. I have to make her few or else I won't be able to start in the game. And he gets really hurt and mad, and he kind of teaches her lesson by taking another girl on a date, like right in front of her, and then he breaks up with her. He's like, you're not here for me. I'm going to drop out of school anyway and go pro. Then, well know, he has a famous line. He says, why don't you go

fuck Dick Vital? That line only because that time Dick Vital was so like such a big sports name in sports, a sports commentator. I was like I had to look up. Oh, he was such a big deal, and like he was just such a big deal, like I believe in the nineties in early two thousand's, and so for him to call her out like that, it was like, oh, I mean that was pretty instant. That's like like if somebody was trying to be a singer and it was like, why don't you a funk? Ryan's secrets, Like I don't know,

I don't know, but it was something like that. It was like the nerve of him and vital with some old ass white man. Is he the person they play a clip of in the movie. There's like that weird cut to like an ESPN is old ass white man. So for him to say that, but he was like, you know, dick bits out was such a huge sports commoner comment comment. He was huge. Okay, Okay, that means because every time that part had since I've seen this movie for the first time, I was like, who the

fund is that? Why does he have so much screen time? Like he must be famous otherwise this part makes yeah, okay, yeah, okay that that breakup scene is so oh. I just think it's so mad for every single time she was one night, it was one night, she was there for most of the time all the other night anyway, So okay. Then we cut to the fourth quarter and it's a few years later. Monica is playing pro ball in Spain.

Quincy is playing for the Lakers, but he tears his a c l and he's in the hospital and Monica goes to visit him, and the entire banks comes in and she's like, we're engaged. I always forget tire Banks is in this and then she suddenly is and you're like, oh the time too. But like when I at the time when I I was like, oh that that's so cool, look Tyra Banks. But now when I look back at it, I'm like, yeah, like even an injured as athlete can get like a supermodel as much as she was only

playing like a flight attendant or something. But it's like like, he ain't got ship going, he ain't got no college degree. And then there's like that scene where like Alfrey Woodard is like, you know, he can do better. I'm like better the entire banks What are you talking about? I mean, I know I love talking about Monica. Yeah, like the first time she says something nice to her daughter, Oh, that relationship is so I mean, I can't wait to talk about it. Yeah. Sorry, So you know, Monica is like,

oh no, he's engaged. And then she decides that basketball isn't really fun for her anymore. She decides to kind of give it up. She's like something's missing from it. I think she ends up getting a job working at her dad's bank, and then Quincy's like, I don't get it. You love basketball. And then one night, she wakes him up because they're both staying at their parents houses, which are again next door to each other, and she's like, what's missing from basketball? Is you? Quincy? I love you?

I love you. Since I was eleven, I was like, I'm getting married to Tyra Banks. I love Tyra Banks. But then she wants to play him for his heart. Yeah. She thinks that if he lets her win, that will be like the signal that he wants to be with her. But he doesn't let her win. He wins, and she's like no, she's walking away and he's like, wait a minute, that part a little bit different. Okay. I didn't see it as mom of thought that he would let her win. I thought that she truly thought that she had a

chance at beating Yeah. I think it's a little bit more empowering. That's why when she misses or whatever, it's like a final shot where she misses or he makes it, and it's like devastating for her, but it's not devastated like want want, like how dare you make that? It's like how did I let that? She beats herself up as if it's the championship game in high school. So I don't think she was like, he'll let me win

in that proves he loves me. I think that it was a surprise after she loses and he's like, god it, I totally see that. I was thinking, like, because there's that scene earlier when they're in college and like they're playing like strip basketball and she said something like or he's like, oh, I let you win or something because like so they could like strip and see each other naked. So I thought that was like a kind of a continuation of that, but also like, I think what you're

saying makes more sense, and it's probably the case. See, like I think it was. I think it was like, yeah, this is what we used to do. But I think she truly thought, like if somebody says you're the only thing missing from like what's missing from basketball is you? I think she really that was her last That was her last line, and to fit it's like I'm gonna I'm gonna try and beat you and you'll have to be with me. And I think she really believed. I mean,

he had a freaking knee brace someone. Right. If I can't beat you any other time, isn't it beat you after you just toy your a c M. Yeah, yeah, I mean either way, like it's you get that amazing moment of like him having to like he wins, he has all of a sudden the power in this situation.

And then it almost like she inadvertently or depending on how you look at it, maybe on purpose, he has to like call his own bluff and be like I wont but like and then kiss, and then we're like, poor Tyra Banks, I don't give a shit about I was so invested in Monica and Quincy it was tortured to even say, I'm like, get when are we gonna get back on track? Oh, it's and it is, like it is so satisfying when they Yeah, I get very

emotional about it. And then at the end, Yeah, So we cut to what I think should have been called overtime because we've got the first four quarters and then we've got another flash forwards and I know, right, but we see Monica and Quincy. They are married, they have a baby. He's sitting on the sidelines with the baby and she's playing in the w n B A. Yeah, a love story, right, I'm like this, um man. I guess Monica moves for a while, but for the most part.

I'm like, Quincy never had to move his entire life. That's that's good for him. Um. So yeah, that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back. Where should we start? Where to get There's a lot to cover. Yeah, there's love, there's basketball, and then that's just the beginning. I guess there's two topics to this. Well, I mean, DAP, as you already mentioned, like this is almost an entirely black cast.

This is every major role being played by a black actor.

I think the only exception is Monica has a white coach in college, but she's kind of like she's in like three and there's that one on one where it's whatever, that like coach thing where they're like I'm hard on you because I care, like alright whatever by and like yeah, but yeah, I almost I forgot about her, right, But yeah, I mean, it's representation that we don't see very much in mainstream movies especially, and the fact that it's I mean, and we've already sort of started to touch on this,

but like women being athletes, Black women being athletes, and like having it treated with the you know, like importance that it deserves to be treated is so cool. We have uh black female director who wrote and directed this movie.

This is I think this was her first movie ever that she made, and so yeah, you have like a lot of this movie has right right from I was gonna say, right from the jump corny okay, right from the beginning up shot, so much going for it that most, I mean most movies period, much less an athletic movie would have UM and I hope I'm saying her name. Gina Prince bythewood. Um was also like at least a

high school basketball player. And I was doing some research on the production of this movie, and I guess she one of her frustrations was that she had seen women playing basketball and movies before, but she thought it was never filmed well and so that female basketball players, and especially black female basketball players, had been done in disservice where there been a movie that was about it. And even when there was seen, like she was like, they

were clearly not playing real basketball. They didn't look like they had the athletic power that female basketball players have to have, and so she was kind of leading with like that being the goal and then built this story kind of around it. Interesting. Yeah, I will say that. You know who looked like they couldn't play a look of basketball? Quincy? He looks like I was like, okay,

we gotta start with him playing basketball. Any scenes where he has to look like he's playing basketball, because it's pretty terrible. Yeah. Also, okay, not to body shame Omar Epps, but he somehow makes it to the NBA. He's like five ten or so, Like he seems so short, and again it shout out to all our short kings out there that is even that short, but like, um short king, I'm like, how did you make it to pay basketball when you're pretty average? The same way Tom Cruise climbs

a freaking building and jumps out of a plane. It saves everybody, and he's four to I think we thought that Quincy was I think I assumed that Quincy was taller than Omar Epps is in real life. I have no idea what his height was, but I mean that was yeah. I mean it's it doesn't help that like his father is really like taller, ye much taller than him. Yeah,

I don't know. I mean also, I feel like you can kind of easily justify the height discrepancy by being like, well, he's also got like some pretty strong nepotism going for

him to also he played the correct position for his height. Like, what we have to remember is some of our best basketball players, some of our favorite basketball players around that time, especially one of the biggest basketball players when we loving basketball came out with Alan Iverson, who was a point guard and he was a very small So point guards are normally shorter or that they don't have to be Like, no,

they don't have to be seven football. I mean it's great when they are great when if you're doing anything, if you're taller, that's going to give you more wing span more. But a lot out of them and some of the really good ones have been smaller. Okay, that makes sense. I don't know enough about an athlete not smaller for a regular brand. I think what we have to also remember at that time is Omar EPs was

like wanted to black guys. You know, he had done so many movies that were like sort of coming of age black movies, and so it just just forget like what's true to a story. What also happens in Hollywood is like who will people pay to see? Right? Oh, Like, let's get I think Tubac was dead already. Okay, I'm going, I'm going. I'm just saying, there's still that same thing where you wonder, like why did they get this person

to play this role? Oh, they were hot at they were that hot at the time, And like Omar Epps had already played an athlete and like two other movies. So it's like he was just and and it seems like um for the director as well, he was. It's so weird how like the characters, the way the characters are treated by the story also kind of mirrors how the director's relations to with them, because like Omar Epps

was her first choice, there was never a question. He kind of sailed through it and then in the in the meantime, so I had an incredibly difficult time throughout the entire thing, and just there were more just kind of just like Monica by mistake, and yeah, I didn't realize or maybe I'd forgotten that she and Omar Epps were dating for the whole time of this movie. That I just love when people, um have love and basketball. Yes,

I guess that's what I'm saying. Um. Just to continue the conversation about women in sports and the movies about them. Most sports movies are not about women, believe it or not. Um imagine that there are some though, and we've covered

a fair amount of them on the podcast already. Between a League of their Own, Bend It like Beckham, bring It on Center Stage is either a recent episode or upcoming episode depending on when this episode comes out, and then also black Swan is an upcoming episode, and then we also covered a Tania on the Matreon. But um, it's just worth noting that so few sports movies are focused on women. But it's also comes at no surprise to us because women's sports are not valued by the

general public. But it's always like when especially when movies about female athletes do well, it always like raises the tide for like your saying thing I have, like seeing yourself on screen and like the impact of maybe like a young girl who wanted to play basketball but didn't, like you know, sometimes you're just like, is that what I should be doing? Is this like what a girl

like quote unquote can do? And then you see a movie like this and you're like, oh, okay, I could see that great, um okay, so well, we've covered some of the basketball part of Love and basketball. Um, should we cover some of the love forever the love because the love is where things get a little um trickier. So the relationship between Monica and Quincy is often a bit tumultuous. He is per perhaps not a feminist icon in that he does have a pretty fragile male ego

throughout the starting from all of the quarters. The quarters lashes out with ego related stuff, starting with you know at the very beginning when he's saying like, girls can't play ball and then scars her for a life, but pushes her down because she's about to beat him, and he's like, well, I can't have that. I can't have a girl beating me at basketball. So and then you

know she does. There's the exchange where she says, I'm going to be the first girl in the n b A and he's like, you're not going to be in the NBA. I'm going to be in the NBA and you're gonna be my cheerleader. That doesn't set necessarily a good example for the rest of their relationship. Also, like the whole like you have to sit on my bike and I'll drive you around. She's like, I want to ride my own bike. Then he pushes her down again, but she fights back and you know, insults his dad

and the clippers and stuff. Uh. Then they're in high school. This is before they get together. He still isn't tree in her very well. He negs her a lot. Well there's I mean, there's that whole setup throughout their kind of relationship in high school and college where he seems to like kind of continuously flirt with other women to quote unquote teach her a lesson, which ends up kind of being one of the reasons that they like break

up and things kind of come to a head. Is like any time she is whatever, not doing what he wants her to do or not acting how she wants him to act um or sorry reverse that he will initiate like kind of emotional warfare and be like, Okay, well, if you're not going to do this, then I'm going to go talk to you know, and just almost reminding her like I have options, I don't need you, and just kind of using that to put her down when

she's already so kept down by so many things. It makes me man for her sometimes then, right, I know, I feel so bad because I'm like I have so much sympathy frequency. Really I do. I know that. That's like as you're as you were talking, I was thinking like even when I even when I was young and saw the movie, I don't know. I have a lot of siblings, and so when I see the behavior, like,

obviously it's all I see it. Definitely its egotistical, but I also I see it more as immaturity, and I see Quincy was like an only child, and he truly mirrored exactly what he saw with his dad. Yeah, with his dad and his mom, Like, he truly mirrored exactly that. And then I think, like when we first saw them, there are certain things that are like true to a time, right.

So like if I see a movie that's in like um during slavery or something, right, and somebody wants somebody to be super like a superhero, right, but they instead get whipped, It's like, yeah, that was slavery. That's what happened in historically, you know what I'm saying. And so when I think about him doing what he did, when him saying girls don't play basketball, when I think about as much as I was not born in I can't think of any images even in the eighties where I

saw women playing basketball. I didn't know no friends who played basketball. The first time that I played basketball, which was in the late nineties, nobody was like, you should play basketball. I saw no examples. It was just like I walked in the gym one day and it was a basketball and some other girls were playing and I was tall enough, and it was like, you should probably

do this too, you know. But so I feel like his statement, while it sounds so misogynistic, it's it's actually just like a fact of that time, and it's like what he knows, right. That's like one thing that I think that this movie does really well is even when Quincy is saying stuff that like now and and in some instance for its time as well, like sound misogynists and cruel, and at times it genuinely is like sometimes

the way he treats Monica, you're like, this is not okay. Uh. But I at least appreciate that the movie makes it clear to you that his behavior and her behavior don't exist in a vacuum, and you get this equal focus on like, you know, he's very clearly pulling from the behavior of his father, and and to watch him I

wish it even like I guess perfect world. I wish that things coming to a head with his father and him kind of losing faith, and like, you know that moment that I feel like happens for a lot of people where you're like, oh, my parent doesn't perfect and like there goes my hero or whatever that's the name of a song, right, But like you know, when when that kind of all comes crashing down, you almost like wanted to impact his behavior even more, but like you

do see where it comes from, I don't know. And and just like watching the way he and Monica deal with things differently, where Quincy sees an example and he emulates it, you can't really fault him for that. That's what kids do. But then you see Monica seas an example and her mother and she rejects it, and she's like, I don't want to be that person. I see how my mom is treated, like in that amazing scene where she's like, I saw how you know, dad treated you,

and I didn't want to be that person. So yeah, I mean, it's it's it's tough because like Quincy has a ton of toxic behavior that I feel like Monica, I mean, I think, okay, this is maybe getting a little off dunk, but like the thing that bothered me. I mean, you could make the argument that he maybe should have demonstrated a little more improvement as a person

before Monica should have taken him back. But what frustrated me on like a doing whatever a critical rewatch, which I've never done for this movie, was at the end he like owes her an apology for the way they broke up, Like that was very clearly on him. It was all writing on like you couldn't be there for me when I needed you. It was one night, Like it's I feel like with a few years of distance, you could be like, Okay, I overreacted maybe, And he

doesn't apologize to her. She apologizes to him for being like I should have been there that night, and I was like, no, you shouldn't have. You won that game,

like you know. So that is my major thing with their relationship is like I wish he had made more of a change in the way that he deals with his life before she took him, because you write a lot of it is like him being immature and like modeling his behavior after the examples that are set for him by his parents, and that's how parenting works, and

that's how children are raised. So you like there's a yeah, we can't place too much blame on him as a younger person, but as he as he grows and you know, sees the world around him and really starts to understand how the world works, and that you can't you know, be constantly disrespecting women and your girlfriend. Yeah, and so we do better at basketball the way. Also, he was like so codependent, Like as when we see Monica after him as an adult, we see her always on her own.

We see her in this different country. I think it's like really like like everybody travels now right at the very least for an Instagram post, But that's feel like as a single woman playing but you know, in in the early nineties, for you to just be going around the world, especially when your example of what a woman should do is your mom, who is dependent on your father, I just felt like that was so like vogue for her to do that was you know, she just was

clearly like the stronger person all of the time, and he was cold, depending he was never alone and he never really had to like answer for that or I mean, you you hope. I like to think by the end end of the movie, where she's in the w n b A and he's kind of like doing the stay at home dad thing or we don't know what he's doing, but he's he's there being the supportive force. It's kind of the first time where we see him being the supportive force where she's supporting him the entire movie until

they break up. And then it was nice at the end to see like, Okay, he is going to be a supportive force for her finally, like he owes her that, and you hope that these discussions have been maybe head off screen, you know, maybe well she's pregnant, maybe they're just figuring stuff out at the house. I don't know, but yeah, yeah, Like she is such a strong, cool person. And sometimes I'm like, does Quincy fully understand how fucking

great Monica is? I hope, I hope so, I hope so um and another it's like the Monica defense force. And then also, I mean, even though his behavior, like we said, is toxic in a lot of ways, especially when he's younger, she's always challenging it. She's always pushing back against against like several characters who are giving her a hard time. Her mom's always like be more feminine, quit acting like a boy all the time. Her dad's like,

you know, control your temper. Quincy says, control your temper, and she calls out this like sexist double standard. At one point where she says to Quincy, there in high school, she says, you know, you jump in some guy's face, you talk, smack, you get a pad on your ass, basically saying like you get congratulated for getting angry, but because I'm a female, I get told to calm down and act like a lady. Uh. And that just I mean we had uh. Friend of the cast Saya Shamali

on the podcast. Her book Rage Becomes Her is all about how historically women's anger hasn't been allowed, hasn't been socially acceptable. Women just aren't allowed to be angry or express anger. And she's doing that and she's she's like, I should be allowed to be angry, like I lost a game, Like let me emote about that, and people are just like no, no, no, no. Compending her mother too, her mother is like calling her out if for some reason, it plays on the DVD menu, Like that scene just

plays on the DVD menu. It's such a weird choice. But yeah, her mom calls her out for displaying too much emotion about her performance in the game, like she's like, it's just a game, Yeah, relax, like you. She says something like that attitude you get when you lose is like not whatever, not becoming um. She tells her to smile more at one point too, and and yet and Monica never folds to that for sure. Yeah so yeah, uh.

Monica is always pushing back, challenging the status quo, challenging anything like sexist that gets said to her, and which is so interesting too because it's also that conversation like nature versus nurture, Like you know, it's like Quincy, it's like Monica has no example of strength really, but she's the strong person. I don't want to say that because I feel like there's something strong in the choice that her mom made to I feel like, whatever, Okay, she's nothing,

nothing like her mom. So that's just nature, right, who how she is and who she is, it's just nature. But then Quincy is like all nurture, like I'm this

is all I'm a product of. Yeah, And I think that that was very I like, I mean yeah, because I feel like everyone's I don't know, there should be like some nature nurture spectrum of like some people fall a little more on the like, yeah, this is just how they are, and then some people very much are like I'm following, and so it's those footsteps were like this is what I saw. I don't know, Yeah, Monica

is saw her own person. I think it was like a really interesting choice to also include her sister, who is very much more on the nurture side of like she's going basically with her mother's example, and we see her later that you know, she's she's a stay at home mom and she's had a kid and all this stuff, and that she's kind of rewarded with the favorite title

for taking her mom's cues versus pushing against them. Um, because it just stands to make Monica even more like unique in her own family of like, yeah, it's not like her sister wasn't like impervious to it. And in most scenes with her sister, it's her sister like brushing and doing her hair, and it's like a very like you know, feminine kind of domestic type of thing. And and we're not saying that like that is lesser than you know, Monica playing basketball and choosing like that's you know,

they're they're just different as all. I don't think the movie is saying that either. The movie is not passing judgment on her sister for going a different way, but it's just I guess her mom. Really, I feel like

she passed the judgment on her own mom. But I don't think the movie is because you I would say, yeah, I feel like because you get that scene with the two of them, and and Monica is you know, kind of like you know why she's doing it, but you're like, oh, he's up a little bit where she's shipping on her mom because her mom it's so like it breaks her heart a little bit because her mom keeps bringing up when Monica like got dolled up for the prom and

looked traditionally like feminine the way her mom wanted her to. And her mom's always like, that's my proudest memory of you, like when I was making you do something you didn't want to do. And she brings that up again, and Monica snaps at her, and then we get to see how her mom what is that it's Camille as a name of the character, and then Camille kind of gives

her perspective of like I had dreams too. There were I mean, like you were saying saying like she's a product of her time in a lot of ways, where like she got pregnant and felt like, well, this is the option and had to like kind of sideline her own ambition, and also she thought that I do think the movie was passing a little bit of judgment on the homemaker. But I think that they also were like, but here's why, Like I feel like they tried to give both sides of like, here's the problem, but let's

just show what causes. Let's just show why it's not really you know, where her mom said, Like, I feel like the mom felt like she was a hero or a hero in some sense because she was like, yeah, but I made sure that you guys always ate. I made like this is what I could do well, and I did it as best as I could. Every single day. I showed up. I set aside sometimes what made me happy, because this is what made your dad happy, and that allowed your lives to be what they are. And I

think a lot of mothers do. I have friends that are mothers like their young mothers, and they still are like, my husband won't take the trash out, And in my mind, I'm like, just don't take the fucking trash out. You have to just don't do Yeah, now we just all living in trash. Somebody got a break first, but they always take the trash out. Do you know what I'm saying, which just allows the behavior. Well, that's I think that is actually what Monica is passing judgment against her mom for,

which is not pushing back. Never There's that scene early on when um, Monica's dad is like which shirt should I wear? And she's like this one. He's like, well just iron them both just in case, and she's like, okay, I guess I have to do all your own and like, yeah, she never challenged, she never pushed back, and like, maybe why don't you learn how to iron yourself and I earn your own shirt? But um, and that's what Monica was like, it's not that you're a homemaker, it's not

that I passed no judgment against that mom. It's that you never challenged anything, You never stood up for yourself. Um that Yeah, I mean that's just an interesting dynamic. Yeah, And like that generation gap just kind of being because that's kind of like the Boomer gen X divide is like starting with gen X, that was like a more like let me fucking do something. I'm going to keep

challenging it. And that's why I think why you're saying, like Monica like allowed herself to be angry and like allowed herself to to have a temper and to have a quote attitude because she's like, well, if my mom's not going to do it, like, I don't want to. I don't want to do that. That's not who I am. I don't want to be that, and I'm going to because you could see moments where like her mom wanted to, She's like, I really don't have to iron both, but

she didn't. She didn't say anything, and um, she just chose to remain silent, and that's like what bothered Monica. Yeah. Also, I think it would have been very different, and this is just a small stipulation in a pet peeve of mine. If he would have said, hey, baby, I'm not sure which one I want to wear? Can you iron both? But to come in and say what do you think? Oh you think that? Why don't you just eye your both?

It's like why did you even add my opinion? Yeah, Because then he's just saying like well, funk what you think, I don't trust your Yeah, yeah, there's and and then there's a lot. I mean you don't see her quite as much. But I thought that um Quincy's mom is also an interesting character where you get that scene where she is, you know, miserable she's found out that her

husband's been cheating on her. On top of you know, we knew that their relationship was in trouble anyways because we saw them fighting, We saw him also expecting her to do stuff that she was just like, give me this one thing, and what he wasn't doing it. And then there's that scene where Quincy, you know, you kind of see him fall apart in a way because his mom is devastated. She's like, your father has been cheating

on me, and he doesn't believe her. At first, he's like, there's no way that could be true, because if that's true, then like his whole view of himself is going to have to change. But it's like the French people are mad.

But but it's like it's interesting that like, yeah, he like Quincy is so caught up in this view of his father because of the way he's been brought up that you know, it's like his mom needs to have these high res p I photos for her son to be like, oh fuck, this is happening, which was like,

I don't know. I thought that that was like a well written moment for Quincy because you're like, oh, he's like far down the rabbit hole of like my dad is perfect, Like his mother is in tears and drunk by the pool, and he's like, I don't know, it seems like you might be overreacting, you know. Um, yeah, I thought I wish. I almost wish that relationship was explored a little bit more, but it's like you only

got so many minutes. And then they apparently get divorced because we see Quincy's mom with a new heir and a new man. I like, I like, I like that like weird movie like film language where Quincy's dad fat and I think it's the third quarter. He's a little down to his luck. He's gone through a divorce and it's just communicated to you by him being at a bar by himself, and you're like, oh, he's not and he's like wearing beige and you're like he's not doing great,

and he's not doing great. Yeah, we got to take another quick break, So time out and then we'll be

right back and we're back. Um. Can we talk about the subplot with Sidra, Yeah, teammate in college that I found to be interesting and like also kind of reflective of this of the time where with women playing basketball in the late eighties, which is when she's in college into the early nineties, the trajectory for for women to continue being athletes and to be pro athletes, they have to go overseas, Like there's no w n B A

in the US yet. Um, so I understand they're like this then creating this intense competition between women who are teammates, but there's still, you know, there's still this sense of like, well, there's so few opportunities for us that we kind of

have to compete against each other. Like best case scenario, they have to uproot their lives and move to Spain, right, Um, Because you see this moment early on when Sidra is like spotting her as she's bench pressing, and she says something like, you know, just because we played the same position, doesn't mean we need to compete with each other. Just kidding, you're a soft asked freshman, and then she drops the

bench pressed bar thing on her um. So it's like, oh, that was also close to being nice moment, but then it's like, oh wait, well, like when you contextualize, it's like, yes, like and there are so many spaces where just not that many women are allowed still, and we do feel like we have to compete against each other for yeah, like for its time that dynamic, like, and I like how it develops over the course of the movie too, and you see they reach to truth and then they

become friends and this whole thing. But it's like it sucks because it is like it is like a movie troupe of just like women being against each other irrationally just because like is another woman in the room. She's my competition for this guy. But that's not their dynamic. It's like they are in competition for the same very

finite thing. And I don't know, I feel like even like I've felt that way before, and it makes me feel bad to think about now, like being in a space where you're like, Okay, there's only so many spots that I will be allowed to fill, and so like I'm not here to make friends, and so her attitude makes it sucks because it's like it's hard to watch and you're like, why can't we all just be on this?

But but I think that, yeah, that the characters are written at first, I mean, she seems maybe a little mean at first glance where she drops the barbell on Monica. That was maybe not very cool, but you get you get the context for it. I feel like, you know, I hate that narrative period that like women have to fight. I really do um and I do recognize it in a lot of instances, there is this finite space that we feel we need to compete for. But I think

that's also true too. I think that a lot of what we see in the athletics of this seems like why the girl's gotta be like that, But it's just that's athletics. It's just that we focus on Monica in this story because this story really isn't about Quincy. The story is about Monica, and so that's something that's going to happen. Also in the male locker room between a freshman and the scene, I think that I think that

they probably recruit a little bit differently. You know, like there's probably way more number one teams for men to go. There's way more prospering teams for a male athlete to go to than a female athlete. But I think you get that. I think you get that same thing. No, no senior wants a freshman, regardless of their gender to

come in and take their spot. Absolutelyeah, And I feel like there's I don't watch sports movies, so I can't name examples off the top of my head, but there's definitely examples of like male driven sports movies where you see kind of the same dynamic rookie of the year.

Probably I have never seen it, but but it is, Yeah, that that totally makes sense what I liked about Sidre or like, you know, she she is like coming in hot, She's very clearly threatened by Monica's presence, and but then when she loses her spot, she I almost you're like, oh, the worst thing this movie could do right now is like have them getting a fight or like some one

of those really trophy like over the top things. But I really was like, I really like how that scene, like the choice that part, yeah she takes, she has like a ton of dignity about it, and she's clearly piste off because fucking of course she is, but she just is like don't let this happen to you buy and and then they see each other in Spain years later. I was like, oh, that's like classy as hell, Like

not a lot of people have that. And then she's like and then they get dinner together and there's like a little playful banter where she's like, here's my championship trophy. It's here on the table um and then but like, yeah, Sidre was like, are you fucking Spanish guys or what? And she's like, no, you ever had sex with one person? Can we can we talk about that really quick? That was one thing that I was like, movie, are you

gonna do that? Where? Okay, so and I'm sure that there's a case against this, but I feel like, okay, this is this sort of lines up with prejudices of that time. That's sort of like still bleed into now. But like I think the movie wants us to believe

that Monica has only ever had sex with Quincy. That is sort of the implication we're getting at every moment, and you know, like we're raised from so young or I remember, I think probably a lot of why this romance appealed to me so much when I was little as like, oh, the first boy I kiss, He's going to be the one person that I'm ever with, and like that is something that I think especially girls are

raised with. It is like you are supposed to be with one person, where boys are often encouraged to, you know, like get around and be promiscuous, and like they're not telling me, just in terms of math, how is that possible? Like if every girl is only ever with one person, how are men with so many people? About women? They were just like I never married my one person, Like yeah, it's like you can't imagine having to marry your first kiss terrifying. I would I would live in Hartford, would

be I would be in trouble. Okay, Anyways, this movie is challenging of so many things, and that was one thing that you're like, oh that it didn't really push back on that kind of fantasy we're presented with as kids as because it's made clear started from when he's like fifteen sixteen, Quincy is like not discouraged from being promiscuous and like we're not shaming him for that, but it's like his mom is like whose earring is this his? But it's only his mom. His dad's like this rules.

His friends are like this rules. Every girl at school is throwing themselves at him. Gabrielle Union is sending her couchie through the mail, which is my favorite line of the Glunion is there. Uh and and like his like promisecuity is never calling the question, which it shouldn't be.

But I feel like the movie just I thought it would have been cool if like Monica had had another boyfriend or just it would have been cool too because because and there's just I just always have it in my head of like sometimes it's like you need this is my opinion of I'm like, sometimes you need a second relationship just to know if the first relationship was like the right one, because otherwise you have no nothing to compare it to. And then you're like I could

be having terrible sex forever you'd never know. So that was like one thing that I'm like, I I wish that Monica had been sort of allowed by the story to have more of a personal life. A Spaniard boyfriend. Yeah, why couldn't you have had sex with one of the Spanish guys? When she was like, no, these guys aren't

my type, I'm like, what are you talking about? I thought that it was doing two things and I'm really probably gonna get to go into part for this, So I thought that they were trying to point out like, yeah, Monica has only ever been with Quincy, which is like, if that's true, if you know, for women out there, if that's the case, that's fine as well, but also like it's totally fine to be fucking you know whatever.

But I also thought that, and this may be because I was around a lot of female athletes, and I think that something that you fight against is a female athlete, is being straight or gay, okay, And I felt like with Cidrus characters specifically, they had her speak sort of very cavalier in that way about her sex life in Spain to sort of address like, two female athletes can be together and they don't they don't have to be

gay women. Yeah, I think that that's I just thought at that time, like, I don't think that that's something. I don't think that's the conversation if that, if Love and Basketball was made, that they would feel the need

to touch on. But I think Loving Basketball came out in two thousand, I don't think there was nearly as much acceptance or pride or you know, what I'm saying, Like, I just think that it was still pretty taboo, and and at being a period piece on top of that, are you're like, oh, it's the late eighties there, that's interesting.

I hadn't even thought about that. And and Monica kind of directly addresses in a, you know, not a elegant way, but addresses, yeah, that assumption that she would be queer or I mean, she's she like yells at her mom like, oh, you think I'm a lesbian because I've always focused on my game. Well that's not true. So she's kind like

in some ways she's addressing this stereotype. And then she's also doing this no homo thing that is like eighties and two recently because it's this scene where her like mom's like, why why can't you dress more like a girl and stuff like that, and she's like, let's go on the lesbian and then her mom goes and she's like, no, I'm not, but like, but yeah, I mean that that almost it's I don't think it's as bad as this example,

but like that reminded me of a scene. And there's something about Mary where uh, Cameron dial is like jokes a out being bisexual as a way to be like, got you, Ben Stiller, So like any time when queerness is like lied about as either kind of a weapon or a joke against someone else, like that's obviously not okay,

Yeah it was. She is kind of addressing like that stereotyche talk and yeah, and she's doing it to like challenge her mom, because her mom, And that reminds me of of a storyline and Benditt like Beckham where the Cure Nightly character's mom is like, why can't you wear like lacy bras and dresses and why do you always address like a boy and act like a boy, because like Monica is pretty tomboyish and she embraces and she's fine with that, and tomboy isn't getting those screen times.

I know I was a tomboy growing up, and like

and yeah, like it's it's nice represence. And there is that like kind of trophy scene in the very beginning where the person that you thought was a boy takes off their hat or takes off their helmet and they're a girl, a girl, which does happen this movie, but the way it's handled in terms of like her being like, yeah, I'm a lesbian just kidding is not handled well, but there is like her again just constantly pushing back against like the status quo and like the stereotypes that are

pushed on her. So yeah, if that scene was written in it would sound different, but I feel like, yeah, it's it's kind of clear what she's saying, even though she's saying it in a very nineteen eighty whatever way.

I also wanted to talk about the sex scene a little bit more, Yes, just in the sense that well, because it's it's the love part of Love and Basketball, I think it's a pretty like and we've analyzed a lot of sex scenes in on this podcast, but I was like, this is like one of the most realistic

and like kind of like responsibly done. I guess like sex scenes you've ever I've seen in movies, because he takes out a condom and you see you never see someone take out especially it's a teenagers, Like that's such an important for teenagers to see and se and like the fact that we see like a high school student

and history you're like, you should definitely wear protection. Rent, But I like that scene because it's it's from Monica's perspective, which I feel like you never really get a scene, especially like a virginity scene told from the woman's perspective, Like it's very like it's a sexy scene, but it's also focused on you can tell she's even though she she's initiated it, but she's nervous and it's like she's covering up her boobs. That was something that I just

didn't like. My research about the production um was and it's like you're like two thousand Jesus Christ that the director was getting a lot of pushback against, and that was their argument for wanting it to be an R rated movie because I guess that scene was originally even a little bit longer and a little more focused on her like anxiety but also her pleasure and like things we'd never get to see in movies, and like she had to make an argument to still get the PG

thirteen rating that this movie. Also the m p a A Was like it's rated her and she's like right, and she was pretty, and she was able to effectively make the argument that it's like she was like, I think you're just saying this because it's from a woman's perspective, and what she did when she took a sex scene from a movie I've never seen but I've heard is very long called Meet Joe Black brad Pitt. It's a

brad Pitt movie. When did it come? Kay? So, like while this movie was being probably evaluated by the m P A a um, there's a scene where I guess brad Pitt's character loses his virginity. It's an even like in terms of what they show, it's an even raunchier scene and it's told from his character's perspective. And so she played those scenes but side by side, and she's like, why is this movie pg? Thirteen and mine has to be rated her and they had to give it to her. Gina.

That doesn't surprise me at all, though I know yeah she doesn't. Yeah, but does initiate the like the kissing. She does surprise kiss him, but he's receptive to it whatever yea um, but yeah, she's like, Yeah, here's my naked body and put your digging me. It's a great sex scene. Every time I see it, I'm like, and they play like that cover of the Kate Bush song and you're just like, oh, this scene is the best. And then like there's Jamie you mentioned this when we

were watching it together. But um, just like kind of like speaking of sex and sexuality, we see locker scenes of like female athletes in this movie. Compare this movie to this locker scenes like the locker room scenes and

carry which come from a male director, male cinematographer. It's like lingering male gaze, like completely objectifying women, those ones where you're like, oh, this movie is directed by a woman, clearly because when you see it sometimes the way that like men will direct female locker room scenes, it's just like women are wearing like victorious secret fra. They're like grabbing each other in this kind of soft porny kind of way where it's like, no, they really are just

changing and having conversations, is of it. So I think that that was like all the big stuff that ahead. I think the only other thing is just like a comment on and this is like one of those immaturity things rather than because we were all very problematic when we were teenagers. Um or at least you were when

you grew up in the nineties. But Monica like slut shames a lot of like especially the girls who are going after Quincy, and it's it's like, Okay, she's doing that because she's probably jealous because she's secretly in love with Quincy. But there's like a lot of the cheerleaders are written to be very two type like this movie. I mean, this movie doesn't really have a vested interest in challenging cheerleader stereotypes. That's what Bringing On is for.

But um, but the cheerleaders in this movie are written very like they're boy crazy. They're like blah blah blah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's very interesting this movie only really had two types of women. You either had the really like um, independent woman character in Monica, but then every other woman. I mean we don't see really her team, we don't see the lives of her teammates, but every other woman that they focused on in the film, it's

pretty much like for the service of a man. Yeah, yeah, PERI.

And it's and that's like why it's even more like I wish Monica could have had sex with someone else, just because it's like I feel like her character is almost because she's so independent and hard working and like focused on her goals that she's her character is slightly de sexualized a little bit um in a way that it's I feel like in this movie isn't like a bad offender of it at all, but it's just like something that's picking up on like the any time there's

a career woman in a movie, she's de sexualized for being like, you know, whereas you see fucking like Wolf of Wall Street Wheld, it's like, yeah, this is a very high power. Maybe not that's a bad example, but like they can't stop fucking, they're addicted to fucking. I don't know. I mean, I don't think she's entirely do sexualized because we do see yeah, we see her sex, but like the fact that she isn't permitted to like explore outside of her sexual experience with Quincy is worth

noting for sure. Yeah, did you have any other thoughts? That I could talk about this all day? Um, even with the sort of problematic conversations, I think it's still a movie that I'll like continuously enjoy And I think I you know how, like in the fight for change, sometimes you have to be extreme, and so it leaves out the reality that there are women who have only ever had eyes for one person, or like even when I think about my own sexual history, I'm very much

not sexual. If I'm not in love with the with the guy, you know, And but I also understand, like even in love and Basketball, I feel like anything that anybody picks out about it, it's all true and valid. But then I'm like the other side is all true and valid too, So to me, I think this is a movie that like holds up pretty well sure that it you know, it's twenty years old, but it's exploring a lot of things that I think are ahead of

its time. In an ideal world, I would have liked to see maybe Quincy not if he was going to be so toxic at the beginning. I think we need to see a more significant character arc for him where he's more respectful and treats her better by the end, or just him being more respectful from the start, but also you know, taking into account the context of the time period, and that's the whole like nature versus nurtured

conversation again. But um, yeah, if if there's gonna be because I'm not necessarily drawn to like romance stories that much, so if there is going to be a romantic storyline in a movie, I have very specific guidelines that I wanted to like fall within, and I just want it to be if it is a hetero relationship, I want the man to be really, really nice and respectful. Then we're not really getting that as much as I would

like in this movie. Um. But at the same time, I think it's ahead of its time in many ways, and the fact that you do have this very strong, outspoken woman who allows yourself to be angry, who challenges the status quo, um, who is never like when she's told girls don't play basketball, you can't be in the NBA, she never listens. She's just like, fuck it, I have

a trajectory and I'm going to go on it. And yeah, she just like I mean she yeah, Monica pushes back again so much that it's like these are small gripes. And it's like, also, i mean, not every strong woman you meet, it it's just I mean, not everyone's pushing against every single thing. That's like, there's only so much energy. And and it's also, I mean, it's kind of consistently communicated that she has to work so much harder to have the same thing that Quincy has. That like, it

makes sense that she has less time to date. I just yeah, I just sort of wish that Dad had gone a little more acknowledged, and it felt just like a little taken for granted, that was just but that was just like my read of it. I'm very happy though, with her happily ever After, which for me felt like the w NBA game, Like, I know, happily ever After it's supposed to be herwit Quincy. But I just I'm just so happy that that final clip is her starting

playing the game and then her husband sidelines. I'm like, yeah, this is how it is. She deserves it. Yeah, it's just nice to see her finally get like what she has deserved the whole movie. I do. I do find it a little annoying that she's like, well, I don't like playing basketball anymore because Quincy, You're not a part of my life, and because he clearly he didn't feel that way, right, He's like, I'm I have Tyra Banks. I'm good. But if she hadn't showed up, he would

have just gotten married. But he would have been unhappy. He would have been He's not saying it because men are freaking stupid. Where he is sitting there tortured, Yeah, yeah, I mean that would have been his punishment, is that he would have had to have a loveless marriage with Tyra Banks. Um. Yeah, I think the main thing for me is that I wish the romantic storyline would have gone the love part of Love and Basketball would have gone a little differently. But everything else about the movie,

for the most part, is pretty top notch. Yeah, and we're sitting over here in like, you know, it was two yes, we get it, it was two thousand. It was also whatever, right, Yeah, but he could have apologized every time there every time there's a scene where you know, the man should be apologizing and then the woman apologizes and then they kiss, You're just like, damn it. Like he barely apologizes for giving her permanent scar on her face.

He like writes this little card that says I'm sorry, But it's like, no, let's hear you say the words I'm sorry. Don't get your mom to bake a cake for her, like say if I was like, I mean, it's like Monica's parents must secretly hate Quincy's parents for just being like write a sorry note. I'm like, you're you guys have so much money, Like I wonder if I wonder what came first like that in the script or Sinai bian cast because you know Sani scars. Actually

it's real. Yeah, it's yeah, so I wonder if that was. But they wrote that in thing. Yeah, just like how they write in Harrison Ford's scar the origin stories of it in the third Indiana Jones movie. Anyway, sorry to bring it up, just struggle to care about Harrison Ford. Um, does this movie past the actual test? Yes, yes, yeah, I think it does. There's a lot of dialogue. Yeah, there's two sentences. There's at least two sentences they're about with like Monica and her teammates. It passes if you

different coach, her coach or sister. Yeah, there's a lot. I mean it's it is Monica's story, like and you get to see Yeah, so she interacts with a lot of women. She interacts with a lot of women. Yea. As far as nipple scale, okay, so our our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation of women, I would give this, I want to say, like a three point seven five. I think again, I still take issue with some of the aspects of the romance part

of the story. And then like, yeah, the thing where it's like she says she's allowed to being as a joke to like as a shock kind of thing for her mom. Different little things like that. But overall, like I said, I think it's ahead of its time. I think the fact that it's an almost entire hardly black

cast is something we hardly ever get to see. And I think it handles a lot of things really well and and like a really nuanced way where even though like some characters are toxic and some characters have some like problematic points of view, there's you know, it's contextualized, and it's because that's how people are, Like, we're no one, no one's perfect. We're all sometimes we say stupid ship and sometimes we do stupid ship constantly. We're total funk

ups um. But yeah, I think it's just like a very nuanced, realistic examination of life and love and basketball. Yeah, I'll go three point seven and five two. I just I mean, I agree with everything you said. There's like a little bit about the romance that you're like, oh, there's a little more to explore there. I am left a little bit, like on the rewatch underwhelmed that they end up together at the end, because, like we've sort of been talking about, Quincy never really had to do

the work to earn her forgiveness. Um, the story kind of makes it seem like he can do basketball without her, but she somehow is completely empty without him. Just the president, it says, is like, you know, sure end up together, but demonstrates some improvement. You know, it's like the fact that it was like she was going to give up her career. On top of she forgets, she like apologizes to him for something she doesn't know him an apology for. On top of we don't see him do any of

the work before they end up together. It's just like it's just like a few things too many, especially because he spends so much time not treating her very well and right, just like negging her and just like not and then like the whole thing where he tries to teach her a lesson by basically cheating on her because she wasn't there for him one time, and we know that that's not good, but we just don't see that he's grown, but we don't see that he's grown past

that behavior. So in that way, I'm like, I'm willing to cut this movie slack in some places for the many many things that does right, But the relationship just like rings a little hollow to me on the rewatch, it feels it's just for me. It's too toxic of a romantic relationship for me to want to root for ultimately.

But another huge thing about this movie is there's a lot of representation behind the camera to which you never ever ever see even now, Like if you have a predominantly black cast, oftentimes a lot of people behind the still a straight white man is still just a list of white guys and maybe a white lady if you're lucky,

Like it's it's very rare. And and just after doing a little research about Gina Prince Bythewood, she's been like this incredible advocate for having women behind the scenes, for having people of color behind the scenes, and she's just been like a real force for getting people work who should be working and having influence in the industry. This

movie was also edited by woman was You're Very very Lazy. Um, So, just on top of the fact that it is written and directed by a black woman's a black woman's story, it's also there was some bullshit that when the year this came out, where there was another movie called Girl Fight, just Karen Kusama's first movie, and this movie like just because it was about women of color who were athletes.

Everyone was like they're the same movie, which is like, okay, two thousand, Um Girlfriend is really good that we should cover it sometime because it's actually seen. It's interesting. I love Karen Kusama in any case. Yeah, there's like there's a lot of going on that's great in front of the camera and behind it. Sore seven five from me, Um, I would say, I'd say I would give it maybe

four nipples. I feel like they did. I mean, there are some things that are problematic, just like you know, I mean even when we talk about Gabrielle Union, yes character, it's like she was kind of go get her to do we like what she was going to get? Maybe not, but she was, you know, And I feel like I feel like sometimes women, when we tell stories about other women, sometimes we pass the judgment on quote unquote promiscuity or sexual liberation. You know that, Like Gabrielle Union's character is

just the opposite version of Monica. But she doesn't want she wants love more than basketball. Yeah you know, but and that's the thing, like that character gets shamed a lot exactly. She's just trying to get dick. Yeah, she doesn't like get the vote. This is like she doesn't really get the opportunity to like make a case for herself or just be like or push back or anything. Yeah. Yeah, like we don't even we don't get the full person.

We don't know who she is outside of this sexual experience that she's trying to have with Quincy, which is like a little bit unfair. But there's also not enough time in the movie for it. Where's the sequel? I don't want to see that, So I'll give it. I'll give it for nipples. There's a lot of things that I watch and listen to now that I saw years ago, and I'm like, how in the hell? Yeah, and loving basketball, I still enjoy it, appreciate it, um, really appreciate certain aspects,

like the sex scenes. You know, I felt like they were tasteful. I felt like they were from her perspective. Um, yeah, I'd give it for Yeah. I don't know. I just feel there's a part of me that doesn't excuse Quincy, but I do feel some sort of sympathy for him, and I feel like his life would have been miserable without Monica. Yeah, she makes everything better, And it's like

I just like, hold on to that last scene. I'm like he's doing some work on the back end to make up for all those times because and like being with Monica now he doesn't mess up two women's lives because he would have messed up Tyrabans his life. Really that is Yeah, that basketball game at the end is when she plays for his heart is the best thing that ever happened to tire Banks. Right, she doesn't even know it yet. Yeah, exactly. Well's name. Thank you so

much for thanks, This was so much fun. Where can people follow you online? Check out your stuff? Um on social media and every single platform is a AP Johnson z A I N A B Johnson. My website is ZAP Johnson. You guys can go to social media on my website and see where I'm performing, or just be my friend, UM, my online friend. I'm not one of those people that thinks social media is my real friends.

I Also, I have a podcast. It's called Honesty with Z. Honesty is spelled h O n E s t e a UM with Z and it's you can find it anywhere you get podcasts. Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me, Thank you for being here. You can follow us all the normal places mostly Twitter, Instagram. Don't send us a message on Facebook. We'ven for checks. Sorry. You can sign up for the Patreon Patreon dot com slash by tel Cast uh five dollars a month, Gate YouTube extra ampasones.

We've emerged on t public dot com slash the bytel Cast and you know this, this basketball season, I have some love to love, love and basketball. There's room for a boat. I can't top that. Thank you, Bye bye