On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy zefphnvest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Podcasting It's a way of life. Hashtag living, hashtag blessed.
Hashtag podcast life.
Oh this is me posting a screenshot of our zoom call right now. Podcast co hosts were like siblings hashtag podcast life.
Wow beautiful hashtag sisters.
We are hashtag sisters. Oh my god.
Anyway, hello and welcome hi to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Daronte.
We're definitely not going to kill each other. No, my name's Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for discussion.
But Caitlin, my sister. Hashtag sisters, podcast sister. What is the hashtag Bechdel Test? Oh my gosh, hashtag cinema hashtag discourse.
The hashtag Bechdel Test is a hashtag media metric created by at Ilison Bechdel. Actually I don't know if that's her handle or not off the top of my head, but anyway, it is a media metric that requires our version that two characters of a marginalized gender have names, they speak to each other, and their conversation is about something other than a man. And ideally, for our sake, we like it when it's a narratively substantial conversation and not like throwaway dialogue.
And today we are covering a movie that we got a lot of requests for when it first came out, and we said no, But now we're saying yes. And here's why I am starting a podcast hashtag Brave whoa hashtag another podcast, another hashtag podcast. It started releasing on May seventh, and it's a weekly show where I profile
a character of the day on the Internet. So think for the first couple of episodes, we're talking about Antoine Donson, we're talking about the dress, We're talking about the Boston slide cop who slip slapped, flip flopped down the damn slide.
So it is a half reported, half interview show where each week we take a look at not just the character and what happened and why they were so notorious, but also getting into internet history, why did the algorithm serve you this person at this time, and a little bit of like a look or an attempt at a look into why did this person suddenly enter your life to try to upset you on social media even if they didn't usually completely unintentionally. So yeah, it's a little
internet history show. I'm really really excited about it. It's also produced by Sophie Lichterman. We've been cooking on it for a while and it started to come out. I'm really excited. Yay me too, Thank you. The trailer has dropped in our feet already. But if you haven't subscribed, hashtag subscribe, hashtag like and subscribe, I'll say it. Hashtag like and subscribe and follow me on Instagram for weekly
updates about the new episodes. And so we wanted to put together an episode that would sort of jive with the idea of the show about being extremely online. And there are not as many movies about this as I thought there were, I'll be honest. So this was certainly the movie we've gotten the most requests for that is about the Internet. There's a few others. A lot of them are like do you remember that documentary that came out on Netflix in it might have been twenty twenty
scary that was called like the Social Dilemma. I remember that.
As I didn't watch all of it. I started it and then I was like, I don't feel good about this.
It was so corny. I feel like there's like always sort of this overly simplistic message with movies like this where they're like phone bad and person who use phone bad as well, and you're like, so, anyways, there's like some documentaries about it. There's a movie I haven't seen called Not Okay that came out a couple of years that also touches on this theme, but we had not
seen it and we got a request for it. So we are covering today a movie that it was really interesting to revisit for me, Ingrid Goes West, which came out in twenty seventeen. Aubrey Plaza and Elizabeth Olsen both firing on all cylinders. Yes, Caitlyn, what's your history with Ingrid Goes West twenty seventeen.
I didn't see it in theaters, but I saw it within a year of it coming out, and I will say that and this is just a kind of personal taste sort of thing. But I tend to really struggle with movies where every single character is unlikable and just like you're cringing at them the whole time. And I know that that's the point of this movie, and we'll talk a lot more about it, and I think there is some interesting commentary on social media and its effects
from this movie. But it's such a stressful movie for me to watch.
It's so like it's like a thriller, Like, yeah, truly, I think it is. Like when the movie ended, I felt like I didn't realize how tight my chest had gotten. Uh huh, Which, even though I don't love everything about this movie, I was like, well, I guess it was effective in making my body hurt, like WHI is wild.
Yeah, to the point where I watch every movie at least twice to prep for every episode we do. And after my first watch of this, I was like, I don't think I can watch this again. I'm too stressed out. But I did anyway, So you're welcome, listeners. Brave hashtag
brave hashtag's so brave. But yeah, it's a very stressful movie for me, So I didn't revisit it after seeing it that first time, back in either twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen, even though I think it has like good performances and you know, it's a good script and things like that. But yeah, too stressful. But prepping for this episode was interesting and I'm excited to talk about it too. What is your relationship with the movie.
I saw this when it came out ish, same deal within a year. I don't think I saw it in theaters, but I am an Aubrey Plaza fan. She was like working a lot during this time. But I wanted to see it because I was like, oh, I've never seen a movie about this before, and I feel like it is kind of doing a talented mister Ripley thing but for the internet, you know. I was like, Okay, this is a cool concept. But I really didn't like it the first time I saw it, and as I was watching,
I was trying to remember exactly why. And I do think there's still things I don't like about this movie, and there are still things that feel very like, yeah, two men wrote this movie, for sure, But I liked it. But when I say I liked, I mean it's like hard to enjoy this movie because it is trying to give you a panic attack in the same way that I feel like Uncut Gems is trying to give you
a panic attack. Yes, yes, which you know means that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, and you know, the whole time, I was like, I remember what happens with Ingrid, but I'm so scared for literally everyone on screen at all times.
Right.
But I liked it more this time, and I feel like this movie is aging in an interesting way. I feel like at the time, outside of the criticism that I think is still valid of like la la la, women are so petty. On the revisit, I like the script more. Everyone in this movie is petty to some degree, and I think I hyper focused on that at the
time and it makes me feel like old. But I think that at the time I saw this, I was like, this is so cynical about the Internet, and I think I just had more faith in the Internet when I saw this movie for the first time than I do now, Like I think that that was a big thing. I was like, yeah, of course everyone is lying on social media. It was true then, it was true. Now It's not like I didn't know that, but I just felt like I still felt some kind of optimism about the Internet
that I no longer feel. So I think that the story just in general kind of worked better for me this time. Yeah, but yeah, it's a tricky little movie. I uh sure is. I really enjoyed writing for this, especially like, yeah, because I've been spending the last couple of months thinking about, you know, like what makes an Internet character of the day, how do these conversations online go.
I was going back to like letterbox reviews at the time, and I was not alone in thinking that this movie was like maybe dismissive towards millennials in general, of like, oh, a lot of the reviews I was seeing from people I know people I didn't know were like, we get it, phone bad, too much Instagram blah blah blah. But it
felt easier to brush off then. And maybe that's just because social media has gotten so much worse since twenty seventeen, and this movie has obviously a very uncharitable opinion of social media. I feel like people I know who didn't like this or like rolled their eyes at it at the time might like it better now. I think, I don't know, Yeah, yeah, I would be curious because I don't think that. I mean, it wasn't a popular enough movie that I don't think anyone has really revisited it.
But it's weirdly like one of the only movies of this genre at least that I've seen.
Same. Yeah, it's quite unlike most things. Yeah, I said brilliantly hashtag brilliant.
Hashtag genius. I also think I didn't know who Whyatt Russell was the last time I saw this movie. I think the main thing this movie did for me at the time is made me a fan of Oh Jackson Junior.
Yes, I think this was also the first thing I saw him. And I can't remember if I saw when did Straight Out of Compton come out?
That came out in twenty fifteen.
Okay, so maybe I had already seen him in that.
I had seen him in that, But that movie is just like what isn't very good? Yeah, I love f Gary Gray, but I've liked them. I don't think anyone thought that movie was very good. In any case, this movie, I just wanted to shout out and oops, all nepotism cast with You've got Osha Jackson Junior.
Yeah, an ice cube, you've.
Got Elizabeth Olsen the older younger ooh, younger sister, I think of the Olsen twins.
I don't know.
Yes, she's younger, younger, she's born in nineteen eighty nine. Wow, she is younger than I thought. And then Wyatt Russell, who's double NEPO Kurt Russell and Goldie Hans.
Oh, I did not realize that.
Yeah, so this is majority NEPO cast. No judgment. I'm just saying it's funny. And I don't think I knew that at the time. I knew who Osha Jackson Junior was. I don't really care about Marvel movies, so this might have been the first movie I saw Elizabeth Olsen in as well.
Well. Other her Marvel connection is the actor who plays Harley Chung. Her name is Tom Clement type it is maybe how you U say it. She plays Mantis in We'll see in the Other.
Yeah, boy does she I did not connect that at all. Wow. So we've got a lot of Marvel, We've got a lot of NEPO. We've also got Billy Magnuson, who I think is neither but I like him. But boy, is his character a piece of shit? I was like, horrible, sort of rooting for Ingrid to finish him off. But yeah, anyways, the movie. The movie.
Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back to recap.
And we're back, all right.
So here's the recap. I will place a content warning at the top here for suicide. We meet Ingrid Sorburne played by Abby Plaza. She is crying and scrolling through Instagram photos of a wedding of someone named Charlotte. Then we get the reveal that Ingrid is at the wedding, crashing it, and she walks up to the bride, Charlotte, and Pepper sprays her and says like, thanks for inviting me, you fucking kunt, which does pass the Bechdel test.
I thought that too, yay, okay.
So then we see Ingrid in a psychiatric hospital and she's still attempting to contact Charlotte via a letter I think, in which we learn that Ingrid's mom has recently passed away. Then Ingrid is released from the hospital and we see her continue to obsessively scroll through Instagram. Then she sees a magazine article about someone named Taylor Sloan played by Elizabeth Olsen. Taylor is an influencer with over two hundred
and fifty thousand followers on Instagram. She lives in LA She's very attractive, she has cute stuff, and she posts photos of her life on Instagram, of her clothes, her meals, her husband, her dog. You know, typical influencer stuff.
I remember vaguely, and listeners, let us know if you agree that it felt a little dated even in twenty seventeen. I feel like it's like sort of like early early Instagram, where it's like heavy on the filters, a lot of food, a lot of hashtags, and like even by twenty seventeen that wasn't really happening, but it did feel like going in like a little social media spaceship into the past, because people don't really do that now. They're like conspiracy theorists or podcasters or both or both.
I can't super speak to it because I've never been very active on Instagram and I only started using it around the time this movie came out. What if this movie inspired me to start on Instagram.
I think I started using it like in Earnest in like twenty fifteen. Okay, but even that was like a little bit after. I feel like this peak kind of influencer, but it's interesting.
Yeah, it is interesting. Yeah, I was not, and I'm still not a big user of the platform, and mostly I just use it to get news and look at cat videos. So those are my influencers.
I mean same.
Okay. So Ingrid is reading about Taylor Sloan and scrolling through her Instagram and she is mesmerized by what she sees, you know, this glamorous southern California life. And Ingrid comments on a post of Taylor's which is a photo of avocado toast.
Hashtag millennials, that's how our generation ruined the economy. I loved that storyline.
That's why we aren't paying back our student loans because we're spending all of our money on avocado toast.
Yeah damn, We're so messy anyways.
Right, So then Ingrid is out getting groceries and she overhears one of Charlotte's friends talking about Ingrid saying that she and Charlotte weren't even friends. That Ingrid basically instagram
stocked Charlotte and we're like, hmm, that's interesting. And Ingrid is crying about this, But then she sees that Taylor has responded to her comment, recommending that she try out a particular restaurant the next time she's in LA, and Ingrid is thrilled, and this seems to prompt Ingrid to move to LA, especially after she receives somewhere around a like sixty thousand dollars inheritance or like life insurance payout or something of that nature after her mom passed away.
So she arrives in LA and rents an apartment from Dan Pinto played by oh Jackson Jr. He is an aspiring screenwriter who is obsessed with Batman. Hilarious Yeah, I mean, great.
Character and also oh my god, like again just another anxiety inducing person. Yes, like aspiring screenwriter slash landlord as such a stressful m description.
The thing though about all of these characters is they are not even really caricatures of a lot of LA people. Like everyone in this I'm like, yeah, I've encountered someone pretty much exactly like that here in La.
Yeah.
So so there's that anyway. So Ingrid is now living in LA and she starts going to the shops and restaurants and salons that Taylor posts about on social media. She reads the same books as Taylor, she buys the same stuff. All of that I like that.
Taylor is so us in the sense that she lies about reading books.
Yeah.
I was like, Oh, we're supposed to be mad about that she's busy.
Yeah, we find out that she's never She claims that The Deer Park is her favorite book, and then we find out she's never read it, and we're like.
Wow, oh well, oh well, we.
Don't read books either, Taylor. It's okay. So then one day Ingrid bumps into Taylor at a store, and Ingrid is trying to act cool but also like trying to get Taylor to notice her, and Taylor definitely does notice her, but it's because Ingrid is not acting cool. She's being very awkward. She almost like absent mindedly shoplifts, you know, stuff like that.
She's doing Aubrey Plaza. This is what Aubrey Plaza characters do at this time, and I'm still kind of yeah.
So then Ingrid stalks Taylor to her house and stays there all day, and then when Taylor leaves to go out that night, Ingrid kidnaps her dog so that she can return the dog to Taylor and seem like a hero, which works. Taylor and her husband, Ezra played by Wyatt Russell are so grateful and they're like, oh my gosh, let us make you dinner. So Ingrid stays for dinner. They're having a nice time, and Ingrid does whatever she
can to endear herself to them. She buys a piece of Ezra's art, which is ugly.
She it's bad.
It's not good.
If we can't say that men's art is bad on this show, why do we even start it? Yeah, this is where she goes full mister Ripley mode, because even though she's socially awkward, she's really great at intuiting. Although at some point I will say, I mean, it's just it's not a feminist criticism of the movie. But at some point during the middle of this movie, I'm like,
would she continue to get away with this? Like, if I'm Elizabeth Olsen, once I see that she has a gun with her, I'm like, I'm gonna get out of here.
I'm gonna leave, you would think yeah.
But anyways, she's ripleying. She's working on another level.
Because she also offers to haul their trailer to the house they have in Joshua Tree because they need someone with a truck. Only Ingrid doesn't have a truck, but her landlord Dan Pinto does so she asks to borrow it and he is reluctant, but he also has a crush on her and agrees to lend Ingrid the truck if she plays Catwoman in an upcoming table read for his unauthorized Batman screenplay.
They are so stressful, as like, she does him dirty time and time again. She's the worst, But it is also so mean to ask someone to do a Batman table read with you.
True, although I was kind of taking inventory of all of the characters, and then I was trying to think, like, of these people, if I had to be friends with one of them, Oh, who would it be? And it would be him and we would just talk about Batman. I guess it would be him.
Yeah, you would see him like once every three months and be kind of exhausted at the end of the hang, but be like he's a nice guy. Whatever. Yeah, I wish it wasn't a landlord, but times are tough. I guess it's like, yeah.
Well, he's not selling his illegal Batman scripts that he's writing, so he's got to make money somehow.
It's true. God, landlords with dreams.
Gross anyway, So Ingrid gets the truck and takes Taylor and her trailer, which I think should be the name of a hashtag podcast.
Maybe a Taylor's Swift the podcast.
She takes them to Joshua Tree, except that she pretends it's her truck slash that she's borrowing it from her boyfriend Dan. She makes up a story about how Dan is actually her boyfriend.
I do like this is just like something I think is fun in movies where for no reason at all, a character is almost always referred to as their full name, And like Dan Pinto, just like it just trips off the tongue, and people just love to say. They don't want to just say Dan, They want to say Dan Pinto.
Dan is not enough syllables. You need the whole thing, Dan Pinto's true.
You need to keep the momentum going exactly. He doesn't seem bothered by it, so.
Whatever, Yeah, okay. So on the way to Joshua Tree, Taylor is like, oh my god, Ingrid, you're so funny. I love you. You're my favorite person. Let's take pictures together. And obviously Ingrid is loving this, and Ingrid bails on Dan Pinto's Batman script. Table read in favor of spending more time with Taylor. They do cocaine, they go out dancing, they're bonding, and on the way to the Joshua Tree house, Ingrid fucks up Dan's truck because they're so distracted by singing.
Casey and JoJo's all my life to each other, and so the truck is all fucked up, and Taylor's like, don't even worry about it. Everything's gonna be fine. And then Taylor tells Ingrid a secret that she plans to buy the house next door in Joshua Tree and open up a boutique hotel where everything inside is for sale, which sounds I hate it, but yeah, well no, it sounds horrible.
Horrible, I mean horrible. Yeah, that's like something that changed between my first view the first time I saw this movie and now you're like, oh, everyone in this movie is horrible. Yes, because maybe I felt like the writing was on the side of her, her husband, but on a rewatch, I actually think this movie is on the side of nobody. It's a pretty cynical. Yeah, like everyone sucks Her idea for an influencer hotel is horrible. Truly, it's gross, but I'm sure it would have worked. I
mean for sure. I mean like that feels very like Joshua Tree gentrification vibes, you know, for sure.
Yeah, and Ingrid is like, oh my god, it's the best idea of ever Taylor. And Taylor doesn't want her husband Ezra to know about this because of financial reasons, so now they have this little secret. The next day, they return to La and Ingrid drops off Dan's truck. He's furious at her for bailing on the table read and leaving this huge scratch on the truck.
This is the point where you're just like, does she really get out of this scrap in real life? But I guess I never underestimate a horny straight guy, Like maybe I don't know.
Right, it causes like he says, eight thousand dollars of damage to his truck, and he forgives her because she's like, let's go on a date and he's like, Okay, I like you and I want to have sex with you.
So dude's rock.
But he's like yelling at her in this scene, but she doesn't even freaking care because she has just gotten a notification that Taylor tagged her in a photo on Instagram. So Ingrid is on cloud nine and she keeps hanging out with Taylor. She's spending a lot of her money
on clothes and home decorps to impress Taylor. Then Ingrid meets Taylor's brother, Nicki played by Billy Magnuson, who comes to La for a visit, and Ingrid is jealous that he's commanding a lot of Taylor's attention, especially when Taylor bails on plans that she and Ingrid have to hang out in order to go to a party with Nicki and this fashion influencer Harley Chung played by Palm clement Tyfe.
Ingrid tries to go to this event but then like can't get into the VIP area and they're like, ooh, sorry about that, but hey, why don't you come to a pool party this weekend that Harley is throwing and bring your boyfriend Dan because they were joking behind Ingrid's back that her boyfriend is imaginary.
Oh god, one of the many scenes that oh, like just made my chest tighten. I can't write like that to like find a moment like that where it's like Taylor is caught in a lie being like, oh, I didn't say your boyfriend doesn't exist, and like, Ingrid knows people are talking shit around her back, but she's just like, I gotta make it through this interaction. And you're like, oh, it's just so painful.
It is, and they're not even wrong because Dan isn't her boyfriend.
No, it is wild how easy it is for Ingrid to be like, you're my boyfriend. He's like totally okay, yeah, yeah right.
So now Ingrid has to make amends with Dan Pinto, who is still pissed for the truck fiasco and the table read thing. But she buys him some Batman gifts and some weed, and she takes him out to dinner and it's like kind of a date and then they start making out and then they go to his place and have sex and they're doing like batman catwoman role play and he's like whoo. And she invites him to this pool party and he agrees to go. So at the pool party, Ingrid is being very unchill because she
keeps feeling like Dan is embarrassing her. Dan is bonding with Nicki, who Ingrid still hates, and most importantly, it's obvious that Taylor is less enthusiastic about her friendship with Ingrid because Taylor has clearly moved on to Harley as her new like bff of the moment, and Ingrid is very jealous. So she betrays Taylor and tells Ezra about that secret they had the you know, boutique hotel idea yeah, and Ezra is like, oh, so typical because his wife
has become so phony recently, not like me. He's an artist.
Yeah, there's somebody interesting, like yeah, how he talks like his wife like that Taylor bullied him into being I'm like, you have agency here as raw yeah okay, yes, and he sort of resents her for being supportive.
I don't know, yeah right, but he's also like pretentious and yeah he's shitty in his own way. They're the worst, yes, but in different ways.
Okay.
So then Ingrid can't find her phone because Nikki had swiped it, and he finds all of these photos that Ingrid took of stuff in Taylor's bathroom and photos of Taylor sleeping and no of all of Taylor's favorite things, and Nicki is like, what the fuck, you creep, and he claims to be looking out for his sister, but then he's like, I won't tell Taylor if you give me five thousand dollars a month, so he's trying to extort her, and she then pays some guy to punch
her in the face so that it's more believable when Ingrid tells Dan that Nicky assaulted her, so that Dan will help her scare Nikki off because she knows that Dan has a gun, so they kidnap Nicki and drive him out to the desert. Nicki fights back, but then Ingrid hits him over the head with a crowbar or something and leaves him there.
It's very like hijinksy. This movie sort of deviates into hijinks occasionally.
For a moment here and there.
Yeah, do we know why Dan Pinto has a gun?
It's not a real gun. It is a paintball gun.
Right right right?
Right?
Okay, yeah, because I was like, he is a dorc why is he? M? M okay it's painpal gun. Yes, yes.
So Dan ends up in the hospital after this altercation with Nicki, and Taylor calls Ingrid and she's like, hey, do you know where my brother is? And she's like, definitely not, but I'm sure he's fine.
Let's get avocado toast.
Girly, and then Ingrid finds out that Taylor has taken another trip to Joshua Tree, so Ingrid drives there to stalk her. Yeah, but then finds out that Taylor is not actually there and that she doesn't want to see or talk to Ingrid anymore because she found out what Ingrid did to Nicki her brother.
And I think kind of like massively underreacts. Yeah, not that I would advise involving the police, but it just didn't make sense to me. It seems like Taylor would have no issue calling the police, you know what I mean, right. I was surprised at how generous she was in that situation, because I'm like, if I were Taylor, I would be like, I don't feel safe for sure. That's scary.
There's some comment that I think Ezra makes to the effect of, if Nicky didn't try to extort you, you'd be in jail right now. So I think that because Nicky did something illegal, that's why they don't go to the police. But I don't know the logic of these choices.
It's confusing.
In any case, Ingrid makes this situation even worse by calling Taylor many times and leaving a bunch of voicemails then Ingrid puts a down payment on a house in Joshua Tree, the house next to the one that Taylor owns aka the house that Taylor wanted to buy to turn into the boutique hotel. But this is the last of Ingrid's money, so now she broke. She's living in Squalor.
She sees then that Taylor's having a Halloween party next door, so she puts on like a white sheet to pretend to be a ghost and crashes the party, and Taylor and Ezra and Nikki are all like, what the fuck are you doing here? Leave us alone? So then Ingrid goes back to her house and records a video of herself saying that everything she's posted in the past few months has been a lie. She has not been living
this glamorous la life. She's a loser. She knows that something is wrong with her, but she doesn't know how to fix it or how to change. She feels lonely, she feels despair, and she posts this video to her followers on Instagram, which she's accumulated I think like a few thousand, I'm guessing because of her proximity to Taylor and like being tagged in photos of Taylors and things like that. This video is effectively a suicide note. She
posts it and then she attempts suicide. She wakes up in the hospital having survived because Dan had seen the video and called nine to one one, and so she survives, and she learns that the video she posted went viral, and now she has tons of followers and people who care about her and who have sent her gifts and
all of this stuff. She's even a hashtag. And so the movie ends on this note, or at least my interpretation of it, is that she has learned nothing and she'll continue to seek validation from social media and other kind of like superficial sources.
The end.
So that's the movie on.
That awesome note. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back, and we're back. Okay, Yeah, this movie is really challenging. Okay, So I want to talk about some of the criticism of this movie that came out at the time, because I think a lot of it is valid, and I also kind of want to revisit it a little bit because I think that this movie does not do great on the subject of mental health.
Agree.
I think that that is like one of its major flaws, but the way that it fumbles it. I think I feel differently than I did when I first saw it, because it feels like Ingrid is a destructive She's struggling with mental illness and grief the entire movie, and we know this about her, and she is unable to get the help that she needs, and it feels like she
is stuck in this. I think I originally was like my first viewing at this, I was like, Oh, we're supposed to hate Ingrid, but I didn't really feel that
way this time. I felt like it. And maybe I'm giving the movie too much credit, but it was It's like, because social media was and is such an under explored addictive process, It's like every time like she has the drug in her hand at all times, and no one really acknowledges it as an addiction and as a drug that can exacerbate and make the mental illnesses that she's struggling with even harder to deal with. And so I don't know, it's tricky because she does so many unforgivable things.
But I did find myself like empathizing with her because I've struggled with mental illness and like OCD specifically, and social media is designed to make that worse and designed to encourage that and attach social currency and the concept
of acceptance to that. So, like I, while I cannot relate with kidnapping Billy Magnuson and like, you know, completely uprooting my life, I did feel like it was interesting to see a character who is struggling with obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors and how social media is absolutely designed to make that worse. The way it's handled from moment to moment, I feel like is all over the place for me.
Right, because, like the movie's agenda is very clearly to examine what social media can do to people's mental health, how it can encourage an impulse for people to compare
themselves to others, how it can breed loneliness. And then on the kind of influencer side of things, it shows how their job is to hawk stuff, whether that's like food at a restaurant, apparel, accessories, makeup whatever, or just like a general like image or lifestyle almost and how doing that basically encourages that impulse to compare yourself to others and feel insecure and feel lonely, and how it's just like this cyclical mess, and the movie acknowledges that
and explores it. But like you were saying, as far as how it handles it, and especially handles mental health.
As well as like suicidality, I've felt.
Like I'm not thrilled with it.
Yeah.
On one hand, I do think the movie could be a lot more judgmental of people who are like influenced by influencers, especially for a movie that was written and directed by men, because men often have a habit of observing women and kind of misinterpreting what is going on.
So I feel like it would have been very easy for, you know, most male filmmakers to observe women who are on both sides of the like influencer social media phenomenon and cast a lot of judgment on them, the way that men constantly cast judgment on women for things like feeling pressure to adhere to societal expectations that men largely reinforce. Right, the movie doesn't quite do that, but it does not seem to have very much empathy for the mental health issues that Ingrid is dealing with.
Yeah, I feel the same way. I feel like, in the effort to get their message across about social media. The way that mental health is treated is undercooked in service of that point, which sucks because I think it's a really hard needle to thread and one that I would rather I mean this honestly, this movie just maybe want to see movies about social media addiction, not by men, and not to say that men can't be addicted to
social media. They absolutely can and are. But this was like talking about a very particular gendered form of plucking
the show again, sixteenth minute on cool Zone Media. I was just talking with friend of the cast, Bridget Todd this morning, yes, of course, who hosts There Are No Girls on the Internet and talks about these topics a lot, and you know, she was speaking to the point that I think is done more thoughtfully in this movie, which is that social media is designed to make women feel like shit, and the content that the algorithm favors tends to be very aspirational to make women feel like shit
about their body, about their class, about their lifestyle, about any number of things. And I do like that. Again, the easy choice here would have been to make Taylor the influencer be a super villain who is lying in
a less complicated way than she's actually lying. But it doesn't, and I do appreciate that, you know, like Taylor is in sort of this trap of maybe not of her own making, but sort of of her own making, where it's become her job to perform feeling great, and she doesn't like she has any number of problems like normal
people would, but can't say that. I am interested in, like the monetizing yourself and your personality, and I think that that is just like always a more slippery slope if you're marginalized in any way, especially like before there were any conversations around it, like so easy to get trapped in like a rigid self, and if you act outside of this self, you're acting off brand, and that's bad.
And like, I think this movie does do some stuff to acknowledge that, you know, the influencers are also in a different kind of mental prison, right, And it doesn't mean that the actions of influencers are universally forgivable, because you know, Taylor is still not great, right, But I like that she is not great in a way that
still feels very human. And I just feel like her character was generally better thought through than Ingrid's at times, which is frustrating because I think Ingrid is We're given the ingredients to have a lot of interesting discussions in this movie around grief, around mental health, and around how you are with a tiny computer all the time that says it's helping you with these exact things, and almost always isn't like, but it's an interesting movie to go
back to because you're like, they didn't quite get it. But I think it's aging better than I expected.
Right, I mean again, the thing that it's always gonna boil down to for me is that the Ingrid character, it's not necessarily unsympathetic or unempathetic toward her, especially when you learn the directors and the writers' intentions with the character. So I will share a quote from what I think might be a press release. I don't really know what this was, but it's possibly a press release from Mongrel Media, which is the film distribution company that I believe distributed
Ingrid Goes West. And in this document is a an interview with Matt Spicer, who directed and co wrote the movie, and he was asked how did this project originate and he says, quote, my co writer, David Branson Smith and I have been friends for many years and we're looking
for something to work on together. We were having lunch and talking about our mutual obsession with Instagram and how it brings out the worst in us, making us feel bad about ourselves while also being wildly entertaining and addictive. He asked me if I thought there was a movie there, which I did. The obvious choice was to make single white female for the social media generation, with Taylor as the helpless victim in Ingrid as the obsessive, cold blooded stalker.
But the more we talked about it, I actually found myself relating more to the Ingrid character. The quote goes on and there's a bunch of other questions, and he talks quite a bit about developing each character and the thought that went into it. And so they are approaching Ingrid, the writers and director, with a sense of empathy, like they do kind of understand what it is to be addicted to social media and how that does affect your
mental health. And so they're not necessarily not approaching the character with any intentional malice or anything like that. But the fact remains that Ingrid, though it is unidentified, is dealing with a mental health crisis, and I mean not identified, like by specific name she's never.
Right, which which I'm not mad about, right, but yeah, something that Foster's compulsive behaviors.
Right, And on top of that, she's dealing with grief over the loss of her mother, and the movie, I think is pretty much constantly assuming that you will or encouraging that the audience will be cringing at her behavior and laughing at her. And so for that to be the case, and people might disagree with me, but I feel like the movie is like constantly like, oh God, no, Ingrid, don't do that, not again. Oh you're so cringey. Oh, or she's doing something that you're laughing at or that's
supposed to be funny. And for that to be true of a character who is again dealing with a mental health crisis. That's the thing that rubs me the wrong way about this movie.
That makes sense to me, And that was like, so what I didn't like about it the first time, And I think that that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I'm unclear on exactly what they want us to feel about her at certain points because I feel like, and maybe this is just grounded in Aubrey Plaza's performance, but like I want to be on her side, like I want her to be okay, and it's like scary and sad and frustrating to watch her not get the help
that she needs. Yeah again, it just yeah, I felt undercooked and under explored because we see that she has spent some time in inpatient treatment, but that doesn't seem to have been especially helpful for her, which can be very true, but like again, it's just like that's there and she goes to I mean, yeah, if you're having a mental health crisis, definitely don't move to Los Angeles. It's like the worst possible place you could be. Take it from me, But it's hard because I feel like
I can't exactly put it into words. I think that that read is so there of like it's funny that this is happening, but I also felt like going back in this time, I just felt terribly for her. Yeah, and part of why it's such an anxiety inducing movie. And maybe it's just like where I am now versus where I was then, but like watching her be around people who don't necessarily have bad intentions towards her, but they just are not equipped to be able to give
her what she needs. And yeah, I think the mental health point that really didn't sit well with me. Again, I understand from the message cautionary message about social media point why the character makes a suicide attempt, but I really don't. That's just a personal preference thing. Maybe I just don't like that. I especially don't like when that's
put on screen. That was what gave me pause. I feel like you can end the movie the same way, maybe not, you know, with that same really stomach churning impact. But I feel like you could end the movie with the same like feeling without having done that. But that's kind of a personal preference. But I just don't like when attempts are put on screen. I feel like it's usually unnecessary, especially because it's an Oprey Plaza movie. A lot of young people are gonna see it, and I
just don't like it. I wanted to go back to original criticism of this movie, yeah, because I just wanted your take. I really I don't know what to make of it now, especially because we were already doing movie criticism in twenty seventeen when this movie came out. But I feel like it was very different.
We were hashtag babies back.
Then, tag podcasting toddlers, but it was an interesting, like, look at what the criticism of this time was like. So this is from a Miss magazine piece from when the movie came out in twenty seventeen. While the film has been heralded as a timely warning against social media, this so called warning is only possible because of the filmmaker's representation of Ingrid as unstable, obsessive, and quote unquote hysterical depictions, which have historically all been used to devalue
and control women. Taking a cue from Single White Female, the film relies on the trope that women's friendships are toxic and unstable, Taking another from films like Swim Fan and Black Swan, it predicates its entire plot on the tired notion that women are jealous, irrational, and obsessive by nature. The film's investment in these depictions paints mental illness into an inherently female danger. Indeed, it seems that Ingrid is a stark and visual warning about the mentally ill woman
we should make sure to never become. As Sarah Kahn writes in a piece that no longer exists on the Internet, the film's unresolved ending is particularly harmful. In that quote, it only reinforces the incorrect and ignorant narrative that people only talk openly about mental illness to seek attention unquote. I think this is interesting. I don't totally agree with it now, honestly, but I do I think agree with
that last part a little bit. Again. I think that, like from the year twenty twenty four, I cannot comfortably say that everyone on the internet discussed mental health is doing so in great faith. I feel like that is not necessarily true. However, the majority are, I think, and I feel like if this movie wants to make this point, we should maybe see other examples of how people are good faith engaging.
Yeah.
See, But now saying that, I'm like, do you feel that Ingrid made this attempt for attention? I sort of didn't read it that way. I didn't well, I don't know. I mean, like, maybe that's me being naive and like I don't see the game of like seven thousand d chests she was playing. But I guess I read that attempt as sincere, so that kind of negates that point
for me. I don't know. I do think that it would have been helpful to clarify whatever they were trying to say around mental health to have another character navigating, if not the same issue, because you know, everyone has their own mental health journey to go on, right, but navigating those same issues in a different way from Ingrid.
Right, I do think it was not like an attention seeking attempt.
I didn't think so either.
Yeah, I do think that she was legitimately attempting suicide. And what she says during that video seems I mean, it's devastating because she's acknowledging how her life has been a lie and how she feels so lonely and she feels like a loser and pathetic and all of these things.
She misses her mom and like, see now, I'm like, but now this movie review doesn't believe women. I'm confused. I'm confused. Yeah, I didn't read that. I mean, and listeners like, obviously open season on if you did read it that way. But yeah, it felt like if that was the intended read of the movie, then yeah, Ingrid is being shown as essentially a super villain. But I guess I just didn't. Yeah, I didn't read it that way.
My read is that she was intending to die by suicide, that her words in the suicide note video were earnest, but The point is that she will fall back into the same cycle because once she survives this attempt and learns that she has a following now that people are reaching out to her, and chances are she'll never meet any of these people and not actually form any lasting
or meaningful connections with any of them. But she's addicted to this internet validation, and it seems as though, because of like the grin on her face when she's seeing all of these expressions of love and support from people commenting on her Instagram, that she again will have learned nothing and will fall back into the same cycle what
I wish would have happened. Maybe I'm talking through this in real time, but like we see her being hospitalized in the beginning of the movie, but it's in like montage, right, and we don't get a whole lot of sense of what is going on, and like is the system failing her? Like is the healthcare system the thing that's right?
And it kind of seems I guess again, that was like the conclusion that I jumped to, but we're not given that explicit reason.
Right, because she makes a comment of I know something is wrong with me, but I don't know how to fix it, I don't know how to change, and I'm curious, like what was the care like that she did receive in this hospital?
Right, right, because it's like it's totally conceivable to get bad mental health treatment, absolute surely, but it's yeah, I agree like that it's important I think to yeah, demonstrate like why it didn't quite work. Otherwise I feel like it is a viable read for it to be like, you know, in patient treatment doesn't work, which is obviously not true. Right Yeah. Again, it's just like, because it's like this satirey feel, it sometimes feels like there's too
broad of a brush with certain issues. But anyways, I just wanted to share that because I thought it was interesting. I'm like, I feel like I would have really wholeheartedly agreed with that criticism at the time, and you know, time keeps moving, and it's just interesting because I feel like, yeah, I was able to have a little bit more of a generous read of this movie than I did six or seven years ago. I do want to say that Elizabeth said joined Instagram right after this movie came out.
There is a funny, kind of iconic her kind of fucked up but kind of iconic. This is from the Cut. In twenty seventeen, Elizabeth Olsen recently joined Instagram for the first time. She learned the ropes while playing an Instagram influencer in her upcoming film Ingrid Goes West, But in an interview with The La Times, she reveals that her newfound social media savvy isn't simply because she needed to
share photos of her breakfast with the world. She's just in it for the cash, so she said, it's so funny that people, this is Elizabeth Olsen speaking, It's so funny that people like to pretend that there may be or maybe not getting paid to post something financially, it's a brilliant opportunity. Like I'd really love to be a
brand ambassador. I'd love to do a campaign. I think sometimes working with brands or different cosmetic companies that can help people recognize your face and then they go see your movie. I was only hurting my opportunities by not participating, which, honestly I think that that is Like, even if you don't agree with it, I appreciate that she's just being honest about it because I feel like that's the fault that the movie is trying to criticize, is that influencers
and this happened. I mean, it's worse now, even though there are disclosure laws in place that there didn't used to be about and saying when you're doing spawn versus when you're not. There are some influencers that like their whole account is spawn. You're like, how do we even get interested in you in the first place? Like you're just selling shit. It's weird.
Yeah, I've never quite understood that, but I do find it interesting that the way Taylor describes herself and her job, because ingrid very blazonly, is like, what do you guys do for money? You know, on the first night that she meets them. But people should be more transparent, I think about their income and how they get it. But anyway, yeah,
she's like, what do you do for money? And Taylor's like, oh, I'm a photographer right right, And then we find out that she's like, well, you know, it's not as glamorous, is it seems? Sometimes brands pay me to like post photos on the thing. And so she's basically like she's describing being an influencer in very creative ways because we don't ever see her with a camera any other camera besides her iPhone camera, she's not doing the type of photography that.
Yeah, it feels very like prior. I think that those disclosure laws they might have existed by the time this movie came out, but maybe not when it was written.
I forget exactly when, but yeah, like it almost feels like I honestly used to feel this way when I would tell people that I hosted a podcast for a living, I actually would not say that, and I was actively like, oh, this is a career that is still like not quite a thing, and I'm kind of embarrassed to say I have a job that I'm not sure is considered to be real or you.
Know, huh.
And it feels like that's kind of what Taylor's doing with an influencer, Like she's trying to make it sound like a respected job where influencer clearly at the time this was written or filmed or I don't know what the production timeline was, wasn't considered a job, whereas now, like most influencers are pretty straightforward about what it is
they're doing because it's considered a legitimate job. I mean the same as podcasting, Like it's considered a legitimate job now, and so people are just like, yeah, this is my job, but she's like, oh well, it's not what it seems like. And also like, clearly at this time she didn't have to disclose anything, which is scary, and that like whether the influencers doing this were especially cognizant of this or not, because I do think that there's like a lot of
naivete around social media usage at this time. They're like, yeah, selling you a fake, it's advertising, it's lying, it's lying, it's making stuff up.
And we see her lying about other stuff such as like she never read the books she's claiming to have read. She loved that, claims that her husband is a very the popular artist, and we find out that the only sale he's ever made is that one two ingrid And basically we just see every character lying or manipulating or thinking that the Jewel Schumacher Batman movies are good.
Okay, what the greatest sin of all? I loved Joel Schumacher. I was very surprised to hear a Jewel Like, you just don't expect to hear his full name spoken in a movie.
You don't.
But yeah, I mean I thought this movie did a better job than I remembered both clearly pointing to the fact that the kind of influencing that Taylor is doing is lying. But there is like a gradient of like it doesn't make her the world's worst person, but it doesn't.
I feel like there was at least some fairness with how that was shown, Like she wasn't completely demonized, but she wasn't made out to be like, oh, I'm just a girl, I don't know what I'm doing, Like she does know what she's doing, yeah, and she seems a little ashamed of it, but not enough to not do it right.
There is more nuance to I would say pretty much every character we get to know to some extent, there's more nuance to them than, again, I would have expected from filmmakers who are men writing about women. I'm not saying they did.
An amazing job, but they did something.
There's something, and there's more nuance there because again, I think it would have been very easy and the kind of default for men to write female characters and female influencers and people who are susceptible to influencers in a
way more judgy way. But I am curious as to why these men, and again I'm talking about director Matt Spicer and his co writer on the script, David Branson Smith, why they chose women as the main characters when they could better speak to the experience of men being affected by social media because they are men affected by social media, as they say in that interview.
Which is interesting because we like we do get a feel for that. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't want to be like people could only write their own experience. Yeah, but I would just be curious to know, and I would also at a note and I wasn't able to really find anything on this to like to what extent they spoke to women about their experiences on social media in building out these characters, because that feels like it would be a very important component
of building out this relationship. Because I don't really agree with the Miss magazine criticism that sort of indicates that, like Taylor in Ingrid's Dynamic, is indicative that these writers think that all women's French are dysfunctional and toxic. Like, I think that that's kind of an overstatement. I feel like we understand why this friendship isn't working. It's because
they're both lying and one to a wild degree. Yeah, and that you know one is in mental health crisis and the other is not equipped to handle that, and Taylor is like a people pleaser to the extent that it's dishonest, and like, I feel like you're given maybe
my brain is broken. It didn't feel especially gendered, because you do get a taste of like how social media affects men, but not as I don't know, Like, I think that the shared quality across the cast is that everyone is in fake it till you make it mode, which is I think just how LA characters are very frequently written. But like Dan Pinto is a fake screenwriter, and Taylor is a fake photographer, and Wyatt Russell is a fake artist, and you know, Billy Magdison is a fake I don't even know.
He's like a real con artist, and he's very racist. We should point.
Out, yes, there is a horrific racist joke in this that clearly turns you on this character. I don't think it was necessary at all to turn us on this character. And it also makes it clear that Taylor is okay with this totally in a room full of white people, She's very okay with laughing at an extremely racist joke. And I think that the only person in the room who really says something is her.
Husband, her husband Ezra.
Yes, so a single point for him there, But he also like I don't know what did you make of him, because I think he definitely sucks. He's a pretentious asshole, yes, right, And he seems very resentful towards Taylor for the way that she's making money.
For sure, And it's not clear if he is like intimidated by her success the way a lot of men in relationships with women who are like making more money than them is very threatening to those men. It's not clear if he's feeling that or if he's just like on his high horse about you know, self promotion and being super online, because those things are clear, but we don't know if there's like an underlying like misogyny thing happening or.
I guess it kind of seems to me like there definitely was like, yeah, he's like the kind of person that sucks. Even when he's saying the right thing, you just feel like he's saying the right thing for the wrong reason, which I guess a lot of people in this movie are true, and that is a very common internet behavior, right, But like, yeah, he's acting like he's too good, like he's trying to have everything both ways
and resenting no matter what the situation is. He resents Taylor as a result, And I don't even like Taylor, but I feel like he is an asshole because he's like, oh, self promotion is so gross, blah blah blah, But why aren't I making money as an artist? Like he just wants everything to be handed to him because he is a man, and look at my art, and everyone's a poser and a faker except for me. And meanwhile, you know his wife is paying all the bills because she
is working, but he doesn't consider what she does. I mean, this is maybe me getting defense, but like he doesn't consider what she does real even though what she's doing is funding his lifestyle. So right, he can shut up or like not be in this relationship if you're not comfortable with that, But you can't just like be angry and passively benefit from it all the time.
True. Also, and I'm not criticizing all like upcycled art because because I think some of it is very very cool, but.
His art is it's right up there with Magic Mike.
It's bad, Magic BIG's awful. Furniture, Yeah, all that Ezra is doing is taking existing paintings that he bought from thrift stores and then painting text on them that says like hashtag blessed or hashtag squad goals or any of those.
Which was a thing like I remember that shit, and like they were right to make fun of it. It was ridiculous. Yeah, but yeah, he's a poser. He's a faker for sure, like the worst kind of poser, where his whole personality is predicated on the fact that he's definitely not a poster, which is like the worst, the worst kind of person.
The movie is recognizing the irony of him being like, I'm a real artist. My art speaks for itself. I do art. And then you see his art and it's something that someone else made and then he just painted some letters on it. It's like, Okay, are you good at art? Question mark.
I do think that, like, at very least, like his character, because I did not remember. It's a very very racist joke about virtually any Asian person because it is that vague and cruel, and I still don't think it was necessary because it does happen. I'm glad that his character calls it out, said something Yeah, yeah, and I understand. I mean, like, I think he's an interesting character to
have there. It's like I recognize the type of person and it sort of contributes to like showing what And this is like kind of a mealy mouthed point that we've seen made in a lot of things with like social media is not real. But that's the point this movie is trying to make to some extent, And their marriage dynamic I think is like pretty interesting and unique, and like, even though I don't love Taylor as a character and her weird Joshua Tree gentrification hotel sounds awful,
her husband is also sexist, so there's that. Her brother, I feel like, is character that didn't really work for me. He felt too cartoonish, I don't know. And also they were like, well he was struggling with or not dealing with his addiction problems, which is referenced several times, but really only seems to be there to add another way in which Taylor is being dishonest about her life or
in denial about her life. But it's just like he sort of became like a plot device at some point where he's like he blackmails Ingrid and he gets kidd like all the high jinxy stuff is sort of with his character, and he's just my least favorite character. I don't like him. That's my feminist criticism. I don't like him.
Wow hashtag genius once again, Yeah, thank you. He is quite cartoony, but I also feel like people like him exist, so for sure, I DeKay, but I just don't like him. I think the last thing I have to say about this movie, and it kind of goes back to the article you were referencing earlier about all of these examples of movies that center female friendship. But it's like a
toxic stockery, obsessive kind of thing. And it's not that I think that all friendships between or among women in movies are portrayed that way, because obviously there are many examples that aren't. But the article does cite several movies that do show that dynamic, such as Swim Fan. I saw that movie, but I can't remember much about it. I have not seen it Swim Fan, and then Single White Female, which we covered many many years ago the show.
But this movie wouldn't feel like, Wow, yet another installment in this type of friendship dynamic between women. If there were just more movies about friendship among women, because yeah, the director was citing other movies that inspired him. One of them was Single White Female. But he also references The Talented Mister Ripley and The King of Comedy, which, Jamie, have you seen that movie?
I have not seen it.
Now I've seen it a couple times. It's another very very stressful movie. Robert de Niro plays an aspiring comedian who's trying to get on like a late night talk show, like a Jimmy Carson kind of thing. Jimmy Carson, is that just Johnny Johnny Carson.
I was like that, Well, we're so young, We're so young. Oh is this the movie that, like Todd Phillips Joker is kind of ripping off right?
Yes?
Okay, yeah, So he's a sessed with this talk show host and he's trying to get like a set to do stand up on a late night show and things go horribly wrong. So there's like a few movies referenced, like King of Comedy and Talented Mister Ripley that the filmmakers of Ingrid Goes West were pulling from that, you know, feature men. But because every other fucking movie in the world is about men. It doesn't feel like, oh, every movie that comes out is about men being obsessed and scary and violent.
Right, I agree with you. I mean, maybe it's being older. Maybe it's just the way that the Internet has continued to evolve where I feel like I did have the information I needed. Would I have liked to see Taylor have an actual friend, sure, sure, like and see what does a functional friendship work like for her? But again, like across gender, it doesn't seem like really anyone in
this movie is capable, except maybe Dan Pinto. I will say, like, you know, weird guy, and I don't really understand why he's putting up with the consequences of being with Ingrid to the extent that he is, but I do appreciate that, like he wants to know her, sure, and that is nice to see. And I feel like that's another way in which this movie does show that it is not
openly contemptuous of Ingrid. And I understand why she is definitely starting by manipulating him so she doesn't get evicted, but I get why she ends up wanting to be with him more, even though it's like this complicated, like he is a means to an end to her as far as access to a car, access to housing, and access to enabling this lie. But also she needs someone to talk to about grief desperately, and he can relate
with her about that. And I thought that that scene was I kind of wish that there was a little more done with that relationship to develop it, because normally I'm like, I don't need the boyfriend's side plot. I think it is kind of interesting here, but yeah, it kind of tapers off, and then the way at the end, I feel bad for Dan Pinto. I'm like, get out of there. Dant like, no, we need to get Ingrid into good stable care so that she can recover, and we need Dan Pinto to like, I don't know, like
give up the ghosts and move on. Well.
Yeah, the thing is every character in this movie is characterized as someone who is like not very capable of healthy human relationships, because Dan Pinto's thing is he's a pushover who like lets people walk all over him, and he's manipulated by Ingrid constantly.
And there's plenty of Dan Pinto's in the world, I know.
And then that scene where Ingrid and Dan Pinto are talking about losing their parents. I almost read that as she seized an opportunity to yeah, because she's again constantly
trying to endear people to her. Yeah, and he's opening up and talking about this grief and you know, he was orphaned as a child and that's why he's so attached to Batman and you know, really laying it all out there, and rather than being like she says a couple things about losing her mom to him, but to me, it was she sees this as an opportunity to basically further manipulate him into dating her so that she can continue using him, because like, she doesn't really continue the conversation,
she just kind of surprise kisses him. Really she does, and then they have Batman catwoman sex.
So yes, I agree with you. Maybe i'm five D chessing because I'm like, but I also feel like it doesn't seem like she is at a stage in her grieving where she It made me sad to see this opportunity for her to genuinely connect with some one, but she's so fixated on this other thing that is not real that she's just fumbling it because she's not able to you know, and not that she has to connect with this specific person, but like it's frustrating and frustrating
in a way that didn't feel uncharitable to her. But I've been in those I think everyone's been in those positions where you're so fixated on this other thing that you think is going to make you happy that something or someone who could actually provide a genuine connection passes you by because you just like are not in a place where you can see it. And especially because she's
an act of mental health crisis. I feel awful for Dan Pinto, who seems to genuinely want a relationship with her, even though that seems like it's connected to a lot of his issues. Yeah, but that she has this opportunity right in front of her to genuinely connect with someone and can't see it for what it is, and that is really sad to me. I feel bad for her.
This movie kind of fumbles other mental illnesses in the pursuit of doing this, but like very clearly demonstrates that social media is an addiction, and that it is an addiction that people don't understand, that is exacerbated by any other number of factors, and which for her seems like some sort of obsessive tendency and grief and depression, and like I probably talked about this on the show before, but when I was probably around this time, it was
maybe a little sooner, like twenty sixteen, but I had and have OCD and it was getting so bad with specific relation to social media that I was luckily able to find a therapist who is willing to really scale his prices so that I could go into exposure therapy for social media, which the time I didn't really talk about because it is no one's business, and also I was embarrassed by it because it didn't sound like a
thing that existed. But literally what the sessions were were I would go on Twitter with my therapist and we would scroll through and we would go through, like, well, what does this bring up for you? What does this
bring up for you? And I was in such a bad place OCD wise that everything was an active threat and I was so spun into anxiety by looking at these things and also could not, for the life of me stop and it took I mean, we did this for a couple of months until I couldn't afford it anymore. We did it, and it really did help, and it did I mean, I don't think anyone has a healthy relationship to social media, but it certainly did turn a corner for me, and then maybe some backsliding during the
pandemic who among us. I mean, I'm like, maybe I should talk about this on the other show, but like I had such a bad relationship with social media that it was like actively, you know, not to the extent
that Ingrid. Ingrid is in a pretty extreme circumstance, but like, I'm glad to know that both Aubrey Plaza and the writer directors like empathize with her because I think everyone has had some experience like this, and then mine like going back, I'm like, maybe I didn't like it the first time I saw it because I didn't like the parts of myself that I saw in her, because it's really uncomfortable, and also just to see it in a time where you know, now, I still don't think that
there's really a lot of practical treatment. And I feel like, you know, if you're having a hard time with your relationship with social media, most people will be like shut up, touch grass and like very unhelpful. Ugh, And I just I can't get over like people are saying touch grass to you on the internet, like, shut up, You're just as bad and maybe worse. But I guess that's my
last thing I have to say about this movie. It was interesting to revisit it because I think I is ashamed and uncomfortable of the parts of me that I saw in Ingrid, and also didn't like how hopeless the end was, because I saw myself in this character and to see her so clearly about to be sucked into the same cycle again is devastating. I will say, for anyone who's struggling with this or has in the past, there are ways to improve it, a lot of it. I mean again, like if I hadn't met I literally
met this therapist in the hospital. It was like shortly before the podcast started. This would have been in June twenty sixteen, when all this was happening. But like, you know, if I hadn't met a psychiatrist in the hospital, where I also could not afford in or outpatient treatment, this hospital psychologist let me just sleep in the er overnight because I was so worked up, and he really generously offered to give me care that I would not have
had access to otherwise. And it did genuinely change, you know, not completely fix. I don't know that it's something that can completely be fixed, but improved my relationships. So there are ways. Unfortunately they're almost always, especially if you live in the US, there's significant barriers, but there's Yeah, there are ways. So if you're struggling, babe, you could be okay. You co'd be okay, Jamie, thank you for sharing that. I love to share.
It's healthy to share and demonstrates the broken healthcare system in this country, because care that is helpful and life saving shouldn't be unaffordable. Jamie, is there anything else you want to talk about with this movie?
I don't really think so. I feel bad, but that's what this movie wants me to do. So it's good.
Right, It's effective in what it's set out to do. Yes, it does pass the Bechdel test quite a bit.
Yes, many times over. Yeah, it's women having complicated feelings about how they perceive each other. Yeah, which I am always especially when there's even an iota of thought put into it. I'm always interested in movies about how women view other women or how they're conditioned or whatever, because it's like, it's very valid, and I think this movie gets across that misogyny is so prominent among men. Wow,
amazing observation, Jamie hashtag genius, thank you. But just seeing how people of marginalized genders have internalized and project at others. It's very common and I feel like it is hard to write clearly, and this movie is touch and go on it. But I think that that is like a worthwhile thing to continue exploring for sure.
Yeah, as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples rating the movie based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I think this movie is attempting to comment on interesting things, things that are pretty complicated and that I feel like society and medical science still
doesn't know that much about. And because the filmmakers did not approach this with the intention of wanting to cast a lot of judgment on a tendency to be influenced by influencers, they, as they describe it, were empathetic toward the ingrid character and they related to her and they were like, we also feel bad when we look at Instagram.
And again, there is more nuance to a lot of the characters than I guess I've been conditioned to expect because so many movies made by men are pretty relentless, especially when it comes to characters who are women, and casting a lot of judgment on them for things, again, like things that men tend to reinforce. I'm always reminded of, like the example of when men will be like, oh,
why are you taking so long to get ready? Like they'll like be rate their girlfriend or whatever for taking so long to get ready, and it's like, I don't know, maybe it's because if a woman doesn't put on makeup and style their hair meticulously and shave off all of their body hair and wear certain clothes and all of this stuff, you'll think that she's disgusting.
Go figure.
Yeah, So I appreciate that the movie isn't casting that level of judgment on this, but the way that it's representing mental health and someone who's experiencing a mental health crisis, I wish it had been handled better, slash differently. And I would have liked to see this premise written and directed by women because I think it would have been handled a lot differently.
Agree.
Yeah, So with that in mind, I don't know, this is one of those movies that, like does the nipple scale even a plot like it's challenging it's complicated.
I mean, it's hard to do the nipple scale with satire.
Yes, so maybe I'll just do a split down the middle because I don't know what else to do. And also, even though this is the most important metric of all time, it also doesn't matter. So two and a half nipples, and I'll give one to roth Coo the Dog, I'll give one to Dan Pinto's Batman Forever Soundtrack CD, and I'll give my half nipple to the lamp that cost twelve hundred dollars.
I'm gonna go three. I'll go three on this one. Yeah, this movie is imperfect, but better than I remembered. And I feel maybe I'm giving it more credit because I feel like I went on a personal journey and like was in conversation with past Jamie by watching this movie.
But I like what it's trying to do. I don't think that it's doing it successfully, but I think it's doing it better than I've seen so far, which speaks to your point is that there is a need for a good movie about social media that is driven by really anyone but white guys, and I think it works in the thriller format. I mean there's so many different ways to talk about it. But I think that there is like an even better social media satire out there TVD.
But for what we have, I think that this movie it's just way better than I remembered it, and it made me think in ways I wasn't expecting to. I do think that, Yeah, mainly for me, the way that mental health is treated differently from sequence to sequence is challenging, and I really don't like on screen suicide attempts im docking it. For that, I think that that's what I have to say.
Woohoo, Jamie, tell us more about where we can listen to and find Well, wait, I didn't get to give my nip.
Sorry, sorry, Okay, I'm giving one to Aubrey, I'm giving one to Elizabeth, and I'm giving one to Osha. Keep it simple, nice now tell us yes. So sixteenth Minute. The first episode of sixteenth Minute came out on Tuesday, May seventh. It is about Antoine Dodson of the bed Intruder song Fame.
Wait was that the Hyder kids hide your wife?
Mm hmmmm, I remember? And that is sort of how every episode of sixteenth Minute works, where it's sort of like, oh, right, that person and then we talk about it. And I spoke with Antoine Dodson for this episode as well as other people, and some episodes are, you know, more intense than others. It sort of depends from story to story. Some of it's very silly and some of it is a little more in depth. So I think you'll enjoy it. If you like this show and you don't hate my Guts,
I think that you will enjoy the show. And yes, it's also produced by Sophie Lichtmann and I'm very proud and excited about it. So please check it out if you want to learn more about how the Internet is poisoning the worlds yay.
And then you can follow us on the normal places. Also, you can follow me on Instagram what Kaylen Dorante Jamie where can people follow you?
You can follow me at Jamie christ Superstar on Instagram where I'm constantly not I also okay, last point, last point. I feel like this also came out at a time where it's like being dishonest about exactly what was going on in your life in social media was like bad and you're like, what do you want me to do? Post to thousands of people that like Taylor is supposed to post to thousands of people that she's having difficulty
in her marriage, like, what is the expectation? Anyways, No, anyways, you can see me misrepresenting my mental health state probably on my Instagram at jamiechrist Superstar.
And you can see me not really posting anything on my grid, but know that I am watching cat videos and crying because of all of the stuff I'm learning about the genocides happening across the world.
Got it?
Follow us on social media at Bechdelcast, and we've got a Patreon aka Matreon that is at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast. You get two bonus episodes every month on a fun little theme that we cook up. This month is my birthday month, and so we are doing some of my favorite Pixar movies. And you can also grab our merchant teapublic dot com slash the Bechdel Cast, and our tour is very soon.
It's very soon. It's in the UK and Dublin. You can get tickets at linktree, which is in the description of this episode.
So with that, hey, let's hashtag log off and touch some ground.
Touch grass off. I go bye bye bye.
The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Dorante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichtermany molaboord. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftus and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechdelcast