If Beale Street Could Talk with Michael-Michelle Pratt

I've heard of it. And also have you heard of the Bechtel test, because that's what we use as a jumping off point to initiate a larger discussion. A lot of drama surrounding the old Bechdel Test recently. Yeah, and uh, I was just like, you know what, just let other people enter the discourse. Well, Alison Bechdel handled handled it. Yes, yea, And um we've been saying for six years. It's is

a jumping up point for a discussion. Yeah. If anyone pays attention to the podcast, you know that we actually barely talk about the Becktel Test and sometimes we forget about it. Um, but not today, I don't think Um. No. We we have a very very oft requested movie today. I think we've gotten request for this movie beginning when it came out in tween. Is that correct? So, without further ado, welcome to the if Beal Street could talk episode of the Backdel Cast. Indeed, but wait, shall we

say what the Bechdel test is? Just for the sake of being thorough, we forgot to do that. Yeah, I'll say it's so fast. Here's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Becktel Wallace Test, in which our version is that two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and the conversation has to be about something other than a man. Ideally for a narratively meaningful

conversation at the end happens in this movie. Tell you what happens in this movie? Yeah. So this is a very frequently requested movie, and like all frequently requested movies, we waited multiple years for basically no reason. Uh to cover it, um, But we have an incredible guest today, a returning guest. She's a film student culture writer. She's had work published in Harper's Bazaar, among other publications. You remember her from our episode on widows. It's Michael Michelle Pratt.

Welcome back back. You're glad to be back. What area tell us about your relationship, your history with If Beal Street could talk. Yeah, so I thowt um in greats. I saw my mom. Um, I think like Opening Night, probably like a like a nice sized crowd and um, and I really loved it and so it's probably quite ached at and sm lovely Jamie, what about you? Pretty short story. I've seen the movie before. I saw it shortly after it came out. I don't think I saw it in theaters. Um, but I did see it out

of theaters. It's so beautiful, it's so well done. I love Barry Jenkins, and I had not I was hoping, um, Cards on the Table. I was hoping that I would have time to read the book before we recorded today. I did not. Um, this is not a James Baldwin book that I have read. But my understanding is that the movie is a very close adaptation. But yeah, I mean, I I really enjoyed the movie when I saw it.

It was lovely to revisit. Especially. I feel like because since this movie came out, I guess four years ago, so many of the actors in this movie have blown up like exponentially, and so you're like, oh my god, wait that's Teana Paris, Like just I don't know. It was fun to go back and be like, wow, everyone in this movie is the most famous person in the world now. Um, So that was a treat as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What's your history with this movie, Caitlin, Very similar to yours, Jamie.

I didn't see it in theaters, but I remember the buzz around it, buzz especially around the awards season. So I'm bechtel, how's buzz watch? We're like, what's buzzing? How can we how can we participate in the buzz? I love participating in the buzz. There's a movie I haven't seen that's being buzzed about. I feel so left out. I'm kind of full of ship. I think you actually genuinely are on. You got your finger on the pulse and you engaged with the buzz. So I'm usually a

little behind the curve. That's okay, look, we forgive you, thanks. But yeah, So I saw it um not too long after it came out, and I thought it was a very moving film and I'm excited to talk about it today. It's always funny when we give our relationships with movies that came out not too long ago. It's always quick. It's just like yep, I saw it. I was an adult. I saw it. Should I recap the story. Let's let's

recap the story and Michael Michelle jump in. Whenever I would be here to add I'll place a trigger warning at the top here for such things as rape, physical abuse, and racism. The movie opens on text on the screen. It's a quote from James Baldwin that says, quote, Beal Street is a street in New Orleans where my father,

where Lewis Armstrong and the jazz were born. Every black person in America was born on Beal Street, born in the black neighborhood of some American city, whether in Jackson, Mississippi, or in Harlem, New York. Beal Street is our legacy. This novel deals with the possibility and the possibility the absolute necessity to give expression to this legacy. Beale Street is allowed street. It is left to the reader to discern a meaning in the beating of the drums unquote.

Then we meet Tish played by Kiki Lane and Alonso a k A. Fannie played by Stefan James. They are a young couple in love in nineteen seventies New York City. Ever heard of it? I can I just say really quick, and I know that I don't want me to get controversial. At the beginning of the episode, I would say that New York is kind of a character in this movie. You could say that, what do we think? I think

that's pretty accurate. I feel like that, Yeah, that's a good you know, I know it's never been z before, but I just felt like, you know, so, how did you got to bake new ground? Do you know you gotta say controversial you know things? You got it to shake it up? Oh okay. So we cut to Tish visiting Fannie in prison. She tells him that she's pregnant, and I feel like this movie demands more respect than to say that she's gregnant. I think we need to

she's actually not. I wrote that down as well. I was like, this maybe the first movie we've covered where she's not she's not gregnant, she's simply pregnant. I'm glad we agree. Kind of rare, right, Um, So she tells him that she's pregnant, and she says not to worry she and their families will work to get Fannie out

of prison before she gives birth. Tish then tells her family that she is pregnant, which includes her mom Sharon played by Regina King Legend, Icon Legend, and an Oscar For this part she should have yes absolutely, also her dad Joseph played by Coleman Domingo, another legend who we talked about most recently in the Zola episode. I also just wanted to add a quick this performance I think is amazing, and I love Barry's depiction of the father figures and I think of him, I think of the

Herschel in Moonlight. I just think it's such a He's so warm and wonderful here. I just I think it's so lovely to see. Absolutely, I can't wait to talk more about that because it's just so nice to see that whole scene to where her family is immediately so

supportive and so kind. And I feel like we're not, as viewers were not like conditioned to see that talk go well with the family and film at all, and to see Tish be so confident that like she wants this baby that's not a question at all, and her family's immediately supportive. It's like, oh, that's very beautiful, because I also hadn't read the book, and so I was brasing.

I was bracing myself because I've been a conditioned to watchings like this and be like, oh, they're not they're not going to accepting And then and then they and they were still reassuring of her choice. It's your choice, and we're in we're to take her back. And I was just like, Oh, that's that's new and really wonderful. Right, this shouldn't be surprising, but it is, right, like you

at least expect. I'm thinking of like other movies where a young person is pregnant or gregnant and it's if not met with hostility, met with like passive aggression or like some sort of judgment, And that is not Tiss's family at all. Tissu's family is the greatest. Yeah, truly.

Also there is Tissue's sister, Ernestine, played by Tayana Paris, and like we said, they are supportive and excited, but they're still apprehensive, but only because the situation is obviously not ideal, with Fannie being in prison right now, they invite Fannie's family over his mom Alice dad Frank, and two sisters, Sheila and Adrian I think are their names, most of whom don't seem to like Tish very much. Fanny's mom in particular, because she's super religious and doesn't

think that Tish is good enough for her son. Vastly different reaction. Yeah, they all discuss Fanny being in prison and how they need to find a good lawyer to get him out of there. We also get some flashbacks about Tish and Fanny's past. They had grown up together as best friends. Then they eventually realized their attraction for each other and they got together romantically. We also learned that Fannie wants to be an artisanal woodworker, and we

see some of his would sculptures. It's so beautiful too. It's this is a tiny thing, but it does always make me laugh when there's an artist in a movie or a book or anywhere and then you see their art and you're like, what is that there? You mean, like Channing Tatum's terrible furniture and magical Michael I was just thinking. I was like, it's like when Channing Tatum

was making the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Everyone's like, we've your genius gorgeous, unbelievable, or anytime anyone does stand up in a movie and they're like genius, visionary and you're like, this is so bad. I was like, you've known stand up clearly, you've never never met a comic. Do you do you write jokes? I don't think you do. Who writes the jokes that are in a nightmare movies that like a stand up comic performs because I'm always

just like I've done. I've been hired to write punch up for movie stand ups before, and it's still challenging because it's hard to write stand up for someone that isn't you. I just it's like it's just hard to make translate. Anyways. In the case of Fannie, I feel like and and Barry Jenkins is so like known for having like this amazing eye for detail that I wasn't surprised but it was neuw only just like his work is so beautiful and it's films so beautifully And Okay,

I'm done. May even of Channing Tatum's table yet I think any time it is appropriate to bring it up, we should bring up how ugly it is. So ugly it blows my mind to the point where I'm like, is this commentary and if so, on what on what? Anyway? Yeah, then we cut back to Tish breaking the news to Fannie's family that she's pregnant. Fannie's mother does not take it well. She starts spewing hateful, uber religious rhetoric about

Tish and her baby. Things escalate to shouting and violence when Fannie's dad hits his wife, and then Fannie's family storms out. We flash back to Tishe and Fannie sharing a romantic evening together. They have sex, which is Tish's first time having sex. A beautiful sex scene, by the way, just very tasteful, beautifully shot, and one thing I loved too that it's completely shot from her perspective and she's not objectified and you're really experiencing it through her eyes,

and I just thought it was beautiful. And one thing I remember reading or watching an interview and very talking about he he also that he had approved it by female colleagues of his and asked female directors their points of view, and I was just like wow, And I was like wow, look at you, like, you know, really taking taking a female protagonists to heart and really, you know, thinking about the perspective that I was just like, wow, I really yeah that that scene was so beautifully done

and it felt it felt like it wasn't I think you're You're totally right, Michael Michelle that it's like the fact that we see it from her perspective makes all the difference, and it's I loved it, And there's nudity, but it's not like exploited it. It's just very tasteful, right, which has been a huge conversation on online. I was like, what is how does that word end line? Online listeners?

I have covid uh, But that's been a conversation that I've I've seen happening quite a bit recently, is like the nudity in movies and how there are some film writers who are like, don't be a prude, Like if it makes sense in the narrative, like why not? And we've had that discussion and I think from different angles over the years, but on a case to case basis,

I mean here it's like perfect. I don't know, it's like you just you just know when it's working and when it's exploitative based on how the cinematographer and the director are communicating. Then we learn about Mrs Victoria Rogers, who has alleged that she was raped by Fannie, which is why he's currently in jail. But the circumstances of this incident, such as where Fannie was that night, make

him being the assailant of this crime impossible. But there is this cop who insists he saw Fannie run from the scene of the crime. So then Tish and her mom speak with the lawyer they've hired, Hayward. He tells them that unfortunately, Fannie's alibi isn't going to hold up very well in court because it involves a friend of

Fannie's who has a criminal record. Not only that, Victoria Rogers has disappeared, possibly back to Puerto Rico, which means Tish has to put up money to pay for special investigators to find Victoria Rogers, something that she and her family can't really afford to do, so both Tish and Fannie feel pretty hopeless. We then flashback to Fannie running into his friend Daniel Carty played by Brian Tyree Henry. Another like, Oh, the performances in this movie is just

It's hard to like. Regina King and Brian Tyree Henry are just I mean, everyone in this movie is unbelievable. But them and Partaket, Oh my god, Brian Tyree Henry so much. He's so good. It's also so great is that the performance is under like fifteen minutes. He's really in there for such such a limited amount of time, but that the thing is they able to do with that time is phenomenal, a testament to his talent. Yeah. Yeah,

it's the scene season. I mean, they're just especially the scene at the table where they're all it's just fucking unbelievable. I will watch anything with Brian Tyree Henry in it. I know that because I watched the New Child's Play. Oh he's thinking for Chuckie and that one. Oh okay, sorry you said Child's Play, and I thought Firestarter the new fire Starters starring Zach Afron. I don't know that is I was thinking about Chuckie. I was like, hey,

was that get from? And also that's interesting? Wow, Okay, so I need to watch two horror movie reboots. Um. Fire Starter only got like on Rotten Tomatoes or something. I was going to see it because Zach of Ron is in it, but it was not reverewed very well. Look, I'll say I un ironically really enjoyed Brian Tyrie Henry's Child's play. It's not he didn't direct it. He's just in it. He's looking for Chucky. It's very exciting, and

that's all I have to say about that. And he's he's just like, I think, one of our one of our generation's greatest character actors. He's the fucking best, absolutely so funny. Runs into Daniel. They talk about how they struggle to find landlords who will rent to them because this country hates black people. Daniel talks about having been in prison. He was arrested for stealing a car, something he did not do. He talks about how horrible it

was in prison. He's crying as he's describing this. Again, just such a beautiful performance. We cut back to the stories present. Victoria Rogers has been found. She is in Puerto Rico and to or someone in her family is going to need to go there and talk to Victoria. The date of Fanny's child is getting closer, tissues pregnancy is showing than. We get some more flashbacks of Tishe and Fannie finally finding a place to rent that a

real estate agent played by Dave Franco shows them. I was like, is that Dave Franco, Hey, hey, just like, Okay, I guess it's interesting. Yeah, that that scene is also so lovely that I mean, the chemistry between Fannie and

and Tish is just so beautiful, beautiful. One thing that I also really loved too is that even though the sith matter is so heavy, there is able to find this really nice balance between alternating between timelines where you're able to also feel feel the levity of them following in love, so it doesn't feel it's still soul crushing, but it's not so heavy, and so it's balanced not

really nicely as you're watching the two corresponding timelines. So yeah, they're totally and that kind of switching between different tones is also like handled really well and it never feels jarring. It's just, like, like you said, a good balance for sure. Okay. So Titie and Fannie they're about to start a life together. But that night Fawannnie has a run in with the cop who will eventually claim he saw Fannie fleeing from

the scene of the rape of Victoria Rogers. Later that night is the night that Titian and Fannie's baby is conceived, and then Tish's mom, Alice, arrives in Puerto Rico to talk to Victoria, but it doesn't go well. Victoria is very traumatized and then she disappears again, so the trial has to be postponed. That scene, I mean, we'll talk about that scene, but everyone's performance that but less particularly Regina King. But just uh uh that I'm very excited

to talk about. I mean not excited. It's an incredibly painful scene, but adaptation wise, very interested to discuss that when when we get there, because I think that Barry Jenkins just like made so many incredible, thoughtful choices in that scene. So the trial has to be postponed. Fannie is desperate to be out of prison soon, but things

again don't seem very hopeful. Meanwhile, Tish gives birth to a healthy baby, and then we cut two years later and the movie ends with Tish and their son, Fannie Jr. Who I think is like four years old by this point. They are visiting Fannie Senior, who is still in prison. He has taken a plea but is still serving time. So that is how the movie ends. Let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss and

we are back. Is there anywhere in particular we would like to start, Michael Michelle, is there anything sticking out to you? Um one thing that I was thinking about for some reason, I don't know why, but was the slap between um Funny's mom and I find that whole secrets interesting because we want to don't see them after that. And then also just the friction between his parents so interesting, and also because he's clearly not religious but his mother is,

and I just I think it's so interesting. And I also remember saying in the theater and the visceral reaction everyone around me was so interesting, and so I did I find, Yeah, that's interesting. I was curious to that was of the two, like in the criticism of this movie, because I know that that definitely happens in the book and was kept in the movie. And I saw some writers that felt that it was good that it was kept in others that were like, we didn't need it. Uh,

I'm curious what you both think. On one hand, I was like, I see why I guess to stay faithful, and also because of the time period. Then I was also like, this is also deeper, gultful just to watch. And I was just like hiding behind my hands watching it, and I was, I mean, I got everything leading up to it. I feel I feel like I've met women like that that are very, very religious and um, and

so that felt realistic. But just the lap I was like, I was like, that's kind of been a captivaby, especially because we see Fannie's dad again hanging out with Titia's dad, and no one seems to be challenging that he's abusive

to his spouse. I don't know. I don't think it's like portrayed in the movie as if he is right to do it, and it feels like it's the way it's framed in the movie, which based on what and again I have not read the book, so I can't speak to this personally, but based on criticism I was reading in the book, it's kind of presented more matter of factly, because just generally in the seventy domestic abuse was treated more matter of factly, particularly by male writers.

But in the movie, if it feels like it's almost used as this character who we've only seen be horrible to Tish, who we love, and then something horrible happens to her and it introduces a shade of gray to her character. But then it's like it never comes back, it's never addressed, and the perpetrator of that violence appears

again and it's as if nothing happened. And if that's in that case, yeah, it just didn't I don't know if there if that was aiming at commentary, it didn't super hit for me, and it just felt like we saw domestic violence. One thing I was also thinking about was I was thinking about James Balden. I know that and a lot of its writing. Like I remember there

was this one essay that I read. I think it's like the fire next time I think it's called and he's talking about kind of like I mean, I know that he was like an assistant passed down with time. He was of religious and then he kind of made away and kind of felt like that religion kind of withholding like people back and that and that and that, Um that was like a hindrance. And then he kind of felt like and like getting go away from religion

was kind of freeing for him. Until I was wondering if for him as a writer, um, having Fannie's mom be the brunt of that and then never seen again was his own commentary unreligion kind of matter of fact, Lee, Yeah, yeah, that's possible. I feel like the movie presents two reactions to Fannie's mom's behavior, and it feels to me like the reaction of her being struck violently and abused is like,

that's not how we do it. But Tisha's reaction when she says, just like that was the most terrible thing anyone has ever said to me, and then she gets called a dried up yellow cunt, which did make me giggle a little bit. Ship You're just like, oh my word language. Yeah, sorry everyone that you heard me say that. But um, I was, I mean I was. I know you were quoting the movie, but I'm wondering if the movie is saying Tissue's response is the way to handle

this pious, toxic behavior from Fannie's mom. I don't know. Yeah, I just feel like it could have been maybe taken out and we could have just had like a verbal kind of I agree that you could have gotten the same effect, And I do think it's also like I'm not like ragging on James Baldwin here. It's like, I feel like the effect is far more startling when you see it on screen and in a movie where other where Barry Jenkins chose to adjust a couple of moments

and scenes for eighteen audiences. I was a little confused why that. I mean, I would be interest did in here. I couldn't find a quote about it on his reasoning behind that choice. But I mean in general, it's like, yeah, someone could have said something just as awful back to her, and something cutting and cruel that could have really hurt

her and produced the same effect. I wanted to talk about broadly how this movie and its representation of black characters and a black family, we see things that we don't normally get to see on screen because so often what we're seeing is harmful stereotypes and tropes usually perpetuated by white filmmakers. For example, we see a black nuclear family, particularly titious family who are warm, loving, unconditionally supportive of each other. We see a black mother and black father

being tender and supportive of their daughter. Too often we see, like you know, a broken home where the parents are abusive to each other and or to their children. Maybe there's no father in the picture at all, and there's never any acknowledgement of why fathers and children are separated. So like the carcerol state is not addressed. It's made to seem like a choice as opposed to something that

is like cooked directly into white supremacy exactly. Um. So we see again, just like this warm, supportive love in this family. We also see this warm, gentle, romantic love between two young black people in Tishe and Fannie. We see men opening up to each other and talking about their feelings and their trauma. In that scene between Fannie and Daniel. It's beautiful and you and you see many

complicated and loving relationships between black women as well. I mean you get even though again it's like Tanna Paris is not in this movie very much, but anytime you see her and Tish together, it is supportive as is kind.

You know that Tish's mother would do anything for her because you see it and everyone, I mean yeah, even though because this is not like a particularly long movie, I feel like the like economy of everything that Barry Jenkins is doing is so like efficient and cool, and the actors are doing this incredible job because even when you don't see two characters together very frequently, you still understand what they're bond is for the most part, And I think one thing that's really great is he is

he really hones in on the on the theme of community and and and I think because he's a black clam maker and being immersed in black community interesting that that's how we're able to get by and then it's a pitotal to the core of being able to survive. My fantasy is as having community and when you're you're maybe not a blacklam give an understand and that and and I think that's very that comes through very clearly.

Uh for sure. There's a number of kind of voiceover monologues from Tish to that effect, which I think most of them are pulled pretty closely from the book. This is I just didn't know this. This is also James Baldwin's only novel that's narrated by a female character. Interested yep um because a lot of this movie is pretty direct commentary on the legal system, cops, incarceration, the inherent

racism within those institutions. And she's talking about how like the odds are just so stacked against them, and the fact that this is a movie about Fannie getting arrested and incarcerated for a crime he did not commit because a racist cop who works within a racist institution and who had specifically targeted and established a vendetta against Fannie, puts him in the police lineup for again a crime

he could not have committed. And there's all this commentary on how you know, it's up to the accused to prove and pay for proving the irregularity and improbability of this sequence of events, and such a big hurdle for the families is like trying to find good legal representation and finding a lawyer who will care enough about their case, and how that's a huge struggle. And even when they do find a lawyer who cares about their case, it's still like a small journey for that character to realize

exactly how stacked the odds are against Fannie. Which that was just like another that character is barely on screen and it's not like we need him on screen very long, but it's like you do get at that moment of him and it's like, oh my god, dude, you're a lawyer,

you should know this, um. But like that's you know, very based in reality of like a white lawyer probably wasn't thinking about that at all, like then and often now so and and then also like I don't know just how much this story naturally references issues that you don't really see spoken about in movies or really much

of anywhere. I also thought it was like really moving and efficient and cool how they addressed racism within real estate too, and how that's like explicitly addressed in the text and also still like moves the story forward, and that seems lovely this movie just it's accomplishing so much and providing so much poignant commentary on racism, but also like having these moments of levity, like you said, Michael Michelle, and having so much of the movie be about black

love and black community. And I want to share a quote from Barry Jenkins from an interview the cast and crew of this film did at the Toronto International Film Festival where this movie premiered, and Barry said that the film is quote a very pure story about black love, black life, black family, black community that's rooted in reality. To be black and conscious is to know that at any moment, your joy can be taken away from you.

And I think this movie rides on that wavelength where you're going to experience great joyous highs and at the turn of a dime, the very very real lows of being black in America. I was even thinking about when they're linking for department with Dave frank Go and and and Fannie's having him helped like carry the pretend fridge and and and that kind of and even after like talking about their harship of the real estate, but there's still that sweet moment of them like looking for the

apartment and all that. Then I was also thinking about, like, I don't know if you all have seen Selvie's Love looked at the Thompson and um Namdi asom Law and

all or heard of it. They're not really similar at all, but it um when they look about that movie, it's kind of talking about like yes, like, yes, there are issues being black and it's hard in America, but but they're but there's still like everyday life happens inside of that struggle and and like and we're still leakding doing normal things, which allows it to avoid the like tragedy porn exactly kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely, And I like that.

I mean, we've we've touched on this a little bit when we were talking about Fannie's family, but you you get like not just this movie that centers black love and black community, like everyone is coming from a different place, like through Fannie's um and through his family, you they have like a totally different perspective on life that seems like maybe not as healthy for their kids. But it's like there is a variety in the in people that

you're seeing. And again, it's just like amazing how many characters are in this movie while you still know exactly who they are and like there. I mean, it's just it's very special. I really like it. And I was also, um not to I mean, I feel like we talked, we talked about this sometimes where we like hand it to uh Man for like writing a female character that

like isn't horrible, So not to do that. However, I do think that it is worth mentioning uh that this is, you know, a female protagonist adapted from a male writer by a male writer, and it works because she's being

treated thoughtfully and like she's a protagonist. Like yeah, I have a quote from Barry Jenkins here from an NPR ever Heard of It interview um where he was asked to just sort of talk about Tish a little bit, And the way that the headline is framed is on why a character like Tish, a woman both soft and tough, may seem unusual. Um, And Barry Jenkins says, I think the part of why the character may seem unusual, you know, I can't say this the first character who has exhibited

those qualities. That might be the first character who looks like key Key Lane and who walks on screen with her natural hair. But I think what I see in that is authors like James Baldwin have been writing these characters for decades, you know, but authors like James Baldwin haven't been adapted into feature films as often as their peers. The characters exist, and it's incumbent upon people like me to bring them to the screen. So again, I love it great, and it's like there there is there are

so many great female characters in this story. Which should we get to the assault talk? Yes, might as well. All right, well this isn't gonna feel good, gang, but here we are. We'll take a break afterward and recover, okay. Um. So yeah, I mean I just wanted to open up that discussion starting with a little more from Barry Jenkins, because this is it sounds like an adaptation, not even like change, but just focal adjustment that sounds like it

was really thoughtful and effective. Again, I have not read the book, based on what I have read around this movie. Originally, Victoria is presented not as a villain, but as more of an antagonist than she's presented as in the movie.

Interesting because her I mean, she picks uh fanni out of a lineup and then it's difficult to get in contact with her, And so I think that in the book it is framed a little more like it is more her fault that this trial is delayed so much, um, in addition to obviously the fucking cop who set him up.

But my understanding is it's presented a little less sympathetically towards Victoria, which Barry Jenkins I think really really thoughtfully shows incredible empathy for this character while not really changing that much about the text. It's all about, like the performance between Emily Rios and Regina King. So I wanted to share a quipe with him about his thought process on portraying that. So same NPR interview. So sorry, uh, look our tax dollars. I think maybe I actually don't know.

Um okay, he says uh when asked how he chose to depict the character of Victoria. He says, quote, I think the moment that Mr Baldwin published the novel is a very different moment than the moment the film is arriving in. I think that in the early nineteen seventies, the semantics, the complications of what Mr Baldwin was depicting, we're maybe more round it, and I think they're much sharper now. In context. Fannie is not falsely accused of anything.

He's chosen out of a police lineup. He's placed in a police lineup by an officer who very clearly has a very racist bent. And so for me, when you unpack it that way, it was clear that Victoria Rogers was not the antagonist. I think all these things are set up, all these characters are set up in a way that you do empathize with all of them. And so for me, it wasn't a challenge at all to understand that she had just as much a right to speak as Regina King, and she had just as much

a right to her humanity as Fannie. Yeah. I think because the character, particularly Tish, her mom, her sister, who have a couple of different conversations about this, they all believe that Victoria Rogers was raped. It's not as though they don't believe that. It's just that based on the facts,

it could not have been Fanny. But because of this racist cop and the vendetta he has against Fanny, and she's you know, just severely traumatized by what happened to her, she makes this false accusation, which, for the sake of the story we are following, is incredibly frustrating, and it means that an innocent man is incarcerated for years. But the movie acknowledges that this traumatized woman is being manipulated

by a racist cop. Ernestine says, you know, I believe she was raped, but she has no idea who did it. Fanny was presented to her as the rapist, and it was easier for her to say yes than to relive

the thing. Um. So I think that characterization in that context, it presents it in such a way that, um, you know, it's not as though, like, oh, this woman is just making up being assaulted because thanks to rape culture, that's what a lot of people assume women do frequently, right, So that is completely avoided, which I really really appreciated, and you get kind of yet another angle on the ways in which American cops fail people, where it's not

only is he intentionally failing Fannie and setting him up for his life to be destroyed because he's racist, he's also setting Victoria up for her life to be destroyed by being so deeply ineffective and so heartless towards victims of assault, Like he doesn't give a shit what happened to her. He's using her to carry out his vendetta against Fannie. It's one one one thing that I do.

I really appreciate it. It's it's very clear sitated that that that that that they're both equally victims, and that he and that he's just taking these two victims and and paying them being at each other, just just just hurt one and then and then resulting in hurting and ruining both of them. And it's very clear that the system care about women or black men. And I like that.

That's very clear. Absolutely, And and I've like, yeah, Regina King's performance in that scene, I feel like the writing is amazing, but it's just like I feel like you can see through her performance what a hopeless, frustrating situation it is, because you know that this character does believe Victoria, and it's just trying to have a conversation that Victoria is too traumatized to have, and like it's not the

fault of anyone. They're like it it would be easier to be angry with Victoria, but she's not because she believes her. And it's just it is like absolutely heartbreaking to watch and also just very like reflective of real

life dynamics to this day, to this day. Yeah, so I thought that that, I mean, yeah, and just like the way that that scene is framed and um played, I feel like shows an appropriate empathy for Victoria while also clearly we are rooting for Fannie m Let's take a break and we will come back for a more discussion,

and we're back. Where shall we go? I would not mind talking about I want to talk about how, in addition to all the other commentary that this movie is affect of re making, labor and class is another thing that I think the movie addresses responsibly in that there's a lot of mention of Tissa's family. You know, everyone's working class. You know, Tissu's dad works at the docks um. She ends up getting a job in a department store,

at a perfume counter. I don't know if we know if do we know if Regina King's character works or what her job is. I can't remember, but I don't remember. Everyone in the family has a you know, working class job, and there's often discussion of how they're struggling to pay

for like the special investigators they need to hire. They you know, can barely afford this trip to Puerto Rico to talk to Victoria Rogers um tissue works throughout her pregnancy, and I think we haven't talked about yet, but that

they will. I mean, I would imagine this is mostly James Baldwin, but the way it's translated to film is so beautiful and it's like, ah, everything is a perfect metaphor, the way that Titsu's job at a perfume counter, and how people of different races feel entitled to her body in different ways, and it's just yeah, but but just speaking to your point, Kaitle, I mean she has to work throughout her pregnancy, yeah, and and just that that that statement of class and that and that lack of

privilege to have to do labor to be able to to afford you know, the case in this baby, and that she has to keep pushing through. Yeah, so I thought all of that was handled well. And yeah, like you said, Jimmy, the commentary on black bodies and the level of like respect and boundaries people have or do not have, and how you know black bodies have historically been so exploited and objectified by white people. Um. Yeah, that was a really effective like metaphor to introduce into

the movie by way of um Titia's job. And then we have Fannie who found something that he wanted to do this like you know, woodworking, This would sculpturing and having this creative pursuit and that he's really good at it, and the commentary around that because she says that it saved him from the deaths that awaited the children of our age. The you know, he found this like passion that he could really connect to and it explore his

art And I really liked that. Um but just yeah, overall, the characters constantly worrying about where they're going to find the money to pay for this defense that they shouldn't even have to be dealing with in the first place, because he's been wrongfully accused because of a racist cop fucking with him. It's frustrating, but you know, again, the

movie handles it very effectively. Yeah, I agree. And then the last thing I wanted to talk about was the romance between Tishe and Fannie and just that it's so sweet and beautiful and pure and you know, we've we've talked about how black love is something that does not get depicted on screen very often, and again the way that it's just like this very supportive and pure love between these two characters. They were like childhood best friends.

They both came of age, they realized that each other was very sexy, and they're like, well, we should probably do something about this, but we turned out so sexy. We turned out to sexy, and we're already best friends, so we might as well kiss. We already talked about like the sex scenes on screen and how they're shot very tastefully, and yeah, I just I thought the romance between Tishe and Fawnny was handled very well and it

made me believe in love just a little bit. I know, I was like, huh, I was like, I don't this thing might not suck. And I also I love that it's you're able to tell in this movie that you're able to have like that this boy next door thing amongst this movie is just it's just so magical to me, um and and and and then it just kind of like slowly washes over you. And I feel like it washes over the view the way that it does, and I just think that's really wonderful. It's lovely, it's really beautiful.

It's and the way it's shot is just like so incredible, and it feels like you're falling in love with them too. It's really nice. The last thing I wanted to just mention really quick, because I'm an adaptation head, was the slight, slight change in the ending of the movie versus the book, which I was not aware of when I first saw the movie, but when I was prepping for this episode. So at the end of the book, Fannie is out

on bail with his trial postponed indefinitely. So it's almost like this it's hopeful and that he's going to be able to spend time with his child and with Tish, but it's also like purgatory, like because you don't know how long this situation is going to last. Barry Jenkins chose to end it on a less I guess less ambiguous. No, I don't know. I just I don't really have a strong opinion on it either way. I just thought it was interesting that that was one of his creative choices

to adjust a little bit. Yeah, it makes the ending feel more bleak, certainly does in the book's ending, but shop is bleak out there. So I don't have a strong take out it. I just wanted to mention that connotation change um, because I could see feeling a number of ways about it. I think that the way that the movie ends, I mean, both are grounded in realism. They're just kind of different, different ways to slice it. Yeah, I also had read the book, so when I watched it,

I was like, that makes sense. I was like, things are kind of like a kind to that, and that makes sense. So, I mean, you know, it tracks. It would have been nice to see this black narrative end on a more optimistic note, since a lot of black stories don't. Yeah, I found I just found it interesting that Barry Jenkins made a choice to make it a

little more depressing. It was like, right, but I trust his judgment, you know, of course, So I'm just like, you know, One thing I also remember reading was that apparently that Fannie's dad could suicide in the book but not in the movie. And so I was like, so, I guess it was like a trade off. Interesting, I did not see that. It's like, I guess we can keep Fannie his dad. But I guess we got it. So I guess it was a good toss up. I guess we have to add in a bummer element somewhere else.

That's I mean, bummer is a major understatement, obviously. Yeah. I mean, as we've said many times, we're not known for our our our book reading. We don't read book here podcast. I do really want to read the book, especially because I haven't read a James Baldwin novel. Shout out to James Baldwin, um a prolific queer Black writer. I did because I love movie watching so much. I did watch the documentary on him. I am not your Negro, but I have yet to read one of his great books.

I had a great I'll shout her out. I had a great English teacher in high school named Mrs McLaren who had us read Notes of a Native Son are freshman year of high school, and she James Baldwin pilled us early. Nice it work. He's the best. But I also want to read this back summers here baby, you got it to download your audio books and and and go nut nut um. Does anyone else have anything to

say about the film? Everything? Yeah, I feel like, oh, I guess my one last phrase of this great movie, you're not going to kind of bring down a little little bit, but to go back to the I guess to the treatment it's early down, but to the treatment

of Victoria. Also what I love because of thinking about the treatment of like of of Psycho Saut with black men and not black women, and how and how black men have been wealthy accused, and how and how that this self could have gone left and um, and kind of thinking about that history and and and and treating it also in so much in his court in his defense that you have to that you have to automatically

feel in eyes. But but they still didn't. And keeping in mind that New Wanton just thought that was another great point. They can at that history that but that you don't have to automatically still balonize And that was really great. Absolutely, this movie is so beautiful. If you want to uh fall in love and cry, then watch it today because it is just fucking gorgeous. And we also I mean, this is the first Barry Jenkins movie we've covered, but we are we We are also aware

of the overwhelming number of Moonlight requests. We will become the Moonlight. Don't you worry. It's Barry Jenkins here here in the pod. Yeah. Um, this is very much beside the point. But Barry Jenkins, I feel like you're hot. Yeah. Well, and also in law married to Lulu Wang, director of The Farewell Maybe the couple. I love Law. They're so cute. It's kind of startling what a good idea it is for them to be married. It's just it's it just makes sense. I remember where I was when I learned that.

I was like, if you guys want to cold direct something, I just feel like he would all be really grateful. As as society culturally we need this. I'm just like, why not? Why not? I also wanted to last shout out Barry Jenkins related also hot, married, and he released a series on I think Amazon Prime last year called The Underground Railroad that was so good and I felt like was really overlooked. I don't know a lot of

people who have seen it. I feel like Amazon's horrible at promoting their own shows and fuck Amazon, but that show is incredible. You should watch it. I feel like Amazon treats Prime as it. It's kind of like the throwaway thing that you that you get when by that stuff. And I'm like, you have like shows and they're good, just promote them like it's not hot. The content is good, they're already there. I was like, you gave Barry Jenkins a thank check. You're gonna want to tell people about it,

you fools. The only show that any like, I don't know, Amazon shows The Boys. The Boys. I'm tired of hearing about the Boys. Love to promote the Boys. Look, I'm not going to watch The Boys. You can't make me, but I highly highly recommend Underground Dollara. Yes, um, well, it really came down hard on the Boys and Tantatum's furniture today. I just don't for your first lidetto over there. It was like you, Okay, what happened? We're doing great? What did the Boys ever do to me? I don't know.

I mean, in general, Billy Zanes in that show, I don't know what I'm so upset about that changes things. I think for just like an episode, I'll watch that episode, Okay, I don't know what I'm so mad about. I need to take a nap. I'm sick. You do you you have COVID, Jamie, Yeah, need to rest. So let's let's draw this episode O to a conclusion. Does the movie pass the Bechtel test? For sure? It does a lot of the conversations between women, such as like Tissue and

her mom, tishe and her sister. The context is often about Fannie, but there are exchanges that do pass. And also, this is one of those movies where you know, not handily passing the Bechtel test is fine. Not every movie has to do that because it's doing so much else and it's saying so much else, and this movie is doing it anyways, so right, which I speaks to Yeah, Again, it's like the metric itself is not the liver Die thing.

It's like, this movie has a number of well written, well thought out characters of all genders who are talking to each other and it's that whole, that whole level of discourse. It was like, oh my gosh. I was just like, I was like, we're taking a cartiage of a little too literally here. Maybe we all settled down, maybe we all got outside. Maybe with touch of Grass. You know. Yeah, Michael Michelle, thank you so much for returning to the show. It is so lovely to have

you back. Thank you for inviting me. I love y'all. Y'all they're great. I love the show. I love movies. You think all, where can we find more of wit? We didn't do the nipples, Jamie, Jamie, you're so sick. I have co um so yes nipple scales zero to five nipples. Based on how the movie fares, looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would give this,

I would say like a four point five. And the only thing I can think to jock four would be the domestic felt like an unnecessary inclusion of domestic violence that is also not really I don't know why it was there really, But other than that, it's a nearly perfect movie. It's yeah, it's just it's just a really beautiful story. And as as Barry Jenkins said, this movie rides that wavelength of like Joyce highs and at the turn of a dime, very real lows of being black

in America. And I think that this movie handles that maybe more effectively than any other movie I've seen. I love the focus on this loving and supportive black family. I love the focus on this loving and supportive relationship like romantic relationship between Tishe and Fannie. All the commentary on the judicial system, policing real estate, and the racism that's present there class commentary. This movie is just accomplishing so much, so efficiently, and so beautifully. And I'll give

it four point seven five nipples. I'll give one to Tish, one to Tissa's mom, Sharon, I will give one to Barry Jenkins. I'll give one to James Baldwin, and I'll give my three quarters nipple to Ernestine Tissue's sister. Love it. I'll meet you there. I I agree that the one thing that bumped me was keeping domestic violence that felt like I could have been accomplished in a less triggering way. Or if you're going to keep it, then make sure

you're commenting on it. We already talked it through. But this movie is just so beautiful it couldn't make I mean, Barry Jenkins adapting James Baldwin is like, what more could you ask for in a movie like? And I feel like his Barry Jenkins filmmaking like rises to the same quality of James Baldwin's writing, which is like, like that's how it's not fair how talented people are sometimes you know,

it's sort of fucked up. Someone just have to be on podcast, you know, and it doesn't feel good, you know, um the but it's just like an unbelievable match between writer and director. Um, and it works so well. Every character here is so well acted and and you know, I mean Caitlin did just echo what you're saying. The number of issues that this movie addresses thoughtfully and seamlessly is just like kind of incredible in a period piece too,

It is just incredible. And also you just have you have women at the center of the story and also a lot of different kinds of women with different perspectives, and but there is still generally a loving, supportive environment across the board. So I love this Spoobie. Um, I'm gonna give it four point seven five. Give one to Tish, give to one to Brian Tyree, Henry, I'll give one to Regina King, give one to Tiana Paris, and then I'll give the point seven five two. Barry Jenkins love it.

Michael Michelle I would also give it a point for seven five. Also because like the slap you know, we said, like we said, I didn't need to be there. Um, but yeah, I just I love this movie. I'll keep rewatching it because, um, it just handles things well and it also still makes me feel warm although it's not like about this really hard topic, but it's still gives you like the feeling of warmth, which is like amazing. Yeah, and just everyone everyone looks great. Uh shut after Stefan

James for looking like that. Thank you for existing, sir, um. And it just handles so many things really well. Else, I would give one to Tish, one dish to Sharon and Orgina King for being an icon and possibly the greatest Chile star of all time. Um oh, I would give one to Barry jing and and then also one to Coin Nikas whose name I don't remember, but a great father figure. And then point seven five to Barry Jakin,

Tish's father. You mean, yes, Joseph, Yes, one to Joseph for for for following impartial all these food steps of very very Jenkin's great father figures. Yes. Absolutely, Thank you again Michael Michelle for coming back and chatting about this movie with us. Where can people follow you? Check out your writing, et cetera. Yes, so I am on Twitter at Michael. No, that's wrong. I'm on Instagram, like I

have social media and I know what they're called. I am Michael Michelle with three m h A E L m h l e with three ears at the end on Instagram, on films and films on Twitter because I care about women in movies, and um, you can see me um in our Bizarre and Awards Watch and teen Vogue and I'm doing some really cool cover story that I can talk about yet, but they're really fun. Um. I did some cool work with Awards watched for some

Emmy nominees recently that'll be out soon. Um. I'm still paying at university, how the dollars each year it hopes of one day get a good degree. So I'll so I'm still doing that. I'm making a short film and yeah, oh yeah that's incredible. Yeah. You can find us on on all the regular places Instagram, Twitter, at backtel Cast, you can sign up for our Patreon a k A Matreon at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast five bucks a month look at you too, bonus episodes with over

a hundreds in the backlog. Are you running out of main fee. Well not anymore, to scoot on over to the matrix, not anymore, okay, and sorry, I have COVID nineteen um okay uh. And you can check out our merch over at public dot com slash the Bacto cast. Indeed you can. And with that, should we all take a stroll down Beal Street. Let's do it together holding hands? Yeah, you know, as a score swells and there's like a yellow ceres yes, and the leaves there's it seems like

there was always fall foliage. Yes, very autumnal vibes. Oh so nice. Okay, bye bye, bye bye