How Stella Got Her Groove Back

is you don't wait? I want to Actually let's start this episode with a quick call out because I went I went to our Wikipedia page to see what number episode this was going to be, and our Wikipedia page it's so stopped updating it. It's been left in June. It's just June. She whiz. I know, So I feel lost, but we do have Wait, let me figure out their Twitter handle? Oh yes, yes, who who very generously made five hundred charts. Yeah, so it's on Twitter. Their handle

is without Guerrillas. But it truly is really fascinating. We reposted it to our social media. But it kind of just breaks down every aspect of our show, like truly every aspect of like how has Caitlin rated movies? How has Jamie rated movies? What is the breakdown of like directors by gender and by race, and just basically a really interesting look at what we've covered so far that

was genuinely helpful to us. So shout out truly some like incredible work that is genuinely like informing and helping our shows. So yeah, thank you you and um but you know Wikipedia, I don't know who who We genuinely we never knew who was keeping our Wikipedia page up to date. But thank you for all of the work that you did. And I think it's a beautiful tribute to our show all the way through June. Incredible. Anyways,

Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. This is the Bectel Cast, in which we examine film through an intersectional feminist lens, one movie at a time, and we use the Bechtel test simply as a way to initiate a larger conversation about representation. But Jamie, what's the Bechtel Test? Okay,

I do know the answer, Okay, I'm ready. It is a media metric originally created by queer cartoonist Alice in Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires that a piece of media do the following, and we have altered it slightly for the purpose of our show. Um so two named characters of a marginalized gender must talk to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. It doesn't usually happen in a movie.

Not enough, not enough? Have you seen Austin Powers? Sorry, I have our Wikipedia page up and just pulling from you know, Uh, there's a lot of movies in which it doesn't pass. We use this as a jumping off point for discussion. We don't spend the whole show trying to figure out if it passes the Backtel test. Imagine how boring that would be. I think, I think someday

we're gonna pivot to that. That would be a fun April Fools episode is just going through a scriptic line by line that is like the Shoshank redemption and be like, what about this exchange? About this one? Nope, between two men still know Well, today's episode I think, well, you know, not to spoil anything, but I think it's gonna fair

okay ish as far as Bechtel test specifically goes. But there's a lot to talk about because the movie is how Stella got her groove back and a popular request, a popular request, and of course we have a guest joining us. She is a comedian. She is one of the co hosts of Love About Town podcast, she's host of Complexify on Vice, and she is our first ever fourth time guest of the Bechtel Cast. It is can smoke. Hello, Hello. That makes me so happy. I did not. It was

the only four guest second other guests. You have a guest, kiss my ass. I have a fourth timer. Next time I'm on, I get a smoking jacket. That's how this ship works. We talked about that. We talked about that last two year. We did. It's important that they know there's a jacket on the way. I feel validated and I don't know why I vindicated, but I'm going to go with that too. Oh yeah, you should. You should feel those things. Congratulations, it's so good to see you.

It's good to see you too. Man. This is not important to the podcast at all, but I do love your sweatshirt very much. It is when Bong ho one for best picture. Right. Yes, yes, it's a quick quick shout out. Caitlin and I were just talking about it. Uh. This was a sweatshirt made by one of our favorite companies, Super Hockey. It was a collaboration they did with Karen Hahn, who's like this amazing writer who is so funny and yeah, so they just made a Bong June Host sweatshirt and

it's my prize possessions. It's really good. Um, and that does a little bit to foreshadow and upcoming episode we're doing on Parasite. I certainly choose outfits based on foreshadowing future, very strategic stuff going on here. Find all my t shirts are flashbacks to past episode, because past episodes, because I have several Josie and the Pussycats t shirts, I have several Titanic shirts. I have several Paddington shirts. I have several Star Wars shirts. I have Draassic Park shirt.

I have a several Back to the Future shirts. I have an Indiana Joe shirt. I'm really just I have too many graphic teas about a lot of toxic movies. Not all of them are toxic movies, but too many of them are. Among us doesn't have a shirt or two referencing a toxic movie. I thought that you were saying that the shirt you were wearing at this moment was a reference, and I was like, deep deep blue, See she's just wearing a blue T shirt. But I

was just like, oh, what is okay? Sorry, that's makes you think, you know, maybe it is though, could be could be the color. We're overdue for that episode. So yeah, um it's okay. So Cannie, what is your relationship with How Stella Got her groove back? So everyone in my life saw it when I was early teens or no, like late childhood whatever you call that, tweens. Yes, everyone in my life was seeing it when I was a

tween and Mike cousin moved down to St. Thomas. I think after reading the book, uh, not watching the movie, my mom went on this very dramatic vacation where she bought several bathing suits for it. She went to St. Thomas. Uh So it was like a big thing that people were talking about, and any time anyone dated a younger man, it was like, oh, she's getting her groove back. So this I didn't see it until this year, but it was part of my world for twenty years before that. Sure,

have you read the book at all? I have not read the book. I am so interested in reading it based on the background that we discussed before this recording happened, which we'll talk about a little bit later. Have you read the book? I haven't read the book. I as you know, I never read books. Well, this is this is the this is the part where were we at the box book cast famously remind our listeners that we

do not read the books books. I still think. I'm I still carry so much trauma from how mad people were after the Lord of the Rings episode, Like, we're not a book podcast. I don't know what to say. People were furious at us. A few people were furious at us too for the Practical Magic episode. There was a book. Just write that book. There is a book. Who do we have to do an episode every week? We can't be reading a full We don't have to. There's a free podcast. We don't like to take it

or leave it. Oh my god, it stresses me out. So it stresses me out so much. So just so you know, we didn't read the book, did not read it. But I agree that they're rewatching the movie. Maybe want to read the book, Jamie. What is your relationship with the movie? Uh, this is I think I have this

experience with the number of movies we've covered before. I've seen this movie, but I saw it like on TV, like tv as or T n T in chunks and I never like really sat down and watched this movie and really, um like took it all in at once. So um, this was my first time really like giving this movie my full attention. I knew I was like five when it came out, so I did, so I don't remember. I know a lot of people like my mom. I saw it. I texted her, I was like, did

you see how Stell got her groove? Actually was like, oh, yeah, it was a bit. It was a night out with friend. I was like, okay, yeah, just loves a rom com and this is you know, we're in the golden age of rom coms here. So yeah, this was my first time kind of really seeing it with full attention, and I really loved it it really. I mean, I'm easily emotionally manipulated, and this movie did take full advantage of that at many points. But I love I loved watching it.

Was It's such a fun, different, cool movie. What about you, Caitlin. Um, I had never seen this movie before prepping for this episode. I'll chalk it up to if you take the even diagram of romantic movies, either like romantic comedies or romantic dramas, because this movie kind of falls somewhere in the middle of that. It. Yeah, it switches tones at different moments. Yeah, for sure. That on like one circle of the Venn diagram and then movies that Caitlin tends to watch and enjoy. Um,

there's very little overlap its Titanic Titanic center. Yes, and it's maybe like Mulan Rouge and Before Sunrise and then every other romantic drama or romantic movie really of any kind. Um is you know, I just probably haven't seen it or don't care about it. So I had not seen this movie, so I didn't really know what to expect. There's a lot to unpack, there's a lot to talk about. I can't wait. It's there's some goofy. There's some really silly scenes that I can't wait to describe, and I'm

very excited, can't wait, can't wait? Should we just should we dive into the recap and go from there? Yeah, a lot happens in this Maybe a lot happens, and yet there's sort of not a plot. Caitlyn thinks it's too long. It's too it is too it's two hours long. It is I'm going to agree for a rob camp for what yet? Condense all this? Yeah, it's definitely weighs to tighten the story. Make it ninety minutes. I don't know why it was two hours. Okay. So we meet Stella.

That's Angela Bassett. Of course we see her at work. She does something with stocks or money or business. And then and then the twist Victor Garber. Victor Garber is there, and really how Stella got her groove back comes out in weren't you just in Titanic the year before this? Victor? And he's like, yeah, He's like, I sure was any questions if a movie involves water, the ocean, the planned trip that goes awry, he doesn't even need to be

near the water, he just has, but he's there in spirit. Ye. Yes. The point is Stella has kind of like an important high stress job and she's very good at it. Then we meet Stella's sisters. Angela played by Susanne Douglas, who I'm not super familiar with her or her work, um, But her other sister is Vanessa played by Regina King. Sach a funny Regina King performance. Yes, she's been doing this for so long, she's so good big the other sister. Wow. I mean you'll get to this with the recap, but

what a bit okay? She is worth noting that she is highly gregnant in this film. She is Greek at with twins, with two Greg's two little Greg's swimming around in there. Um okay. So her sisters, especially Angela, is trying to set Stella up with a man and Stella is like, I'm okay, I'm good. We also learned that Stella has an eleven year old son named Quincy, and he goes off to spend a couple of weeks with

his dad, Stella's ex husband, Walter. And while he's gone, Stella sees a commercial for Jamaican tourism and which she kind of like projects herself into the commercial and then she's like, fuck it, I'm gonna call my best friend Delilah played by Whoopie Goldberg, and she's like, let's go to Jamaica and Delilah is like yes. So then cut to their in Jamaica and I think it's their first

morning there. Uh. Stella is at a restaurant having breakfast and suddenly Tay Diggs is there and he approaches her and he's like, hello, good morning. My name is Winston Shakespeare. And she's like, okay, great name, great name, great name. Um, which she's like, your name is fake. And he's like, well, what if Shakespeare was black? We don't know, which is a very popular theory and it comes up all the time. It came out like this. There was another like wave

of that this past year. Oh really wait, I haven't heard this before. Maybe this year. It's it's often discussed that Shakespeare is black and that Beethoven is black. Maybe that's what happened this year. I think the Beethoven one came out this year. The Shakespeare thing I remember just generally as a thing. It's a washing that he he was part black. Maybe the shack he wrote the Sonnet about was part black. It's oh interesting, I'm gonna have

to do some reading on this. Hell yeah. In any case, Uh, Winston is hot. Um big, very important, exact, really important that we know that Winston is hot. I did write that down. I was like, I just need to say Taye Diggs, damn. That's all that. That's the note. He looks great. This is like his career making role, right, This was like his big breakout role, his first feature I think I think like he had already done in rent On Broadway or something before this, yeah, mostly stage.

Oh yeah, and then that's how he had met Idina Menzel, right right right. Um. Also, I should say that my first year of being on Twitter, which was like two, I spent the entire first year just trying to tweet at ta Diggs to get him to follow me, because he follows everybody. He follows more people than follow him. He has like some celebrities are just like what is the strategy there? There were like articles written about it.

I don't know if anyone remembers this, but like people were righting and like commenting all the time about how like people are like what is Taate Diggs doing on Twitter? He just will follow anybody. He just so he was following tons and tons of people and they weren't you know that some of them were people with like no other followers. Like he was just following anybody. So I

was like, I need him to follow me. So I was just constantly tweeting either at him or about him, trying to get him to follow me, and it never happened. He's to this day, Wow, he only follows people who like don't care. Yeah, I was trying too hard. I guess he could have just set still. And now I'm like, just Tate Diggs follow he doesn't he there's no way that tatg s fellows me. But you never know that's true. I think I think we should listeners. Please help us

all get followed me Cannie Jamie. We all need to be followed by Tay Diggs and we need your help, so please. There's also so there's another Ta. I just there's I saw Ta Diggs recently on television because I shamefully watched Selling Sunset, and Ta Diggs is a very present force on It's like a Netflix reality show about this group of horrible women who sell real estate in like better off of Sunset. So it's just like full like remove your brain from your head TV. I I

enjoy it time to time. It's very silly, um, but Taye Diggs is on the show buying a house in the first season, and everyone's like his The central plot of a whole episode is is Tate Diggs gonna buy this really nice house? And then I forget if he does.

But then in the next season and the next season, Tay Diggs is not physically there, but is present because he seems to have had such a big, outsized influence on season one of Selling Sunset that in season two or possibly three, his ex girlfriend or his current girlfriend at the time, I don't remember. All of a sudden, she's a cast member of Selling Sunset. I don't know why t Diggs has as an influence over what happens on Selling but permeated that show more than you'd think.

He's a mystery that t Digs. Anyways, I'm a big fan. Yeah, good grief. Okay. So the point is that in the story, he is attractive, and he is twenty years old and Stella is forty, and they figured this out right away because he starts to hit on her and she's like, how old are you even and he's like, I'm twenty and she's like, cool, I am twice your age. Also an amazing example of like, so infrequently do women get to play their own age on screen, and Angela Bassett

is permitted to play her age in this movie. It's I think that's so rare in awesome. Meanwhile, Tay Digs is a little older than his character. I think he was seven seven when he when this movie comes out at least I think so. Anyway, he is not bothered by the age difference, and he invites her to this like pajama disco party that's happening that night, and she's like, um, thanks, but no thanks. But then she goes to the dance and they danced together all night, but she doesn't spend

the night with him. And Delilah WHOOPI Goldberg again. It was like, Stella, why didn't you have sex with him? Like what are you doing? You silly so and so? And Stella is like, I don't know. He's like twenty years younger than me. I don't know what I'm doing. And then the next day, Stella takes a dip in the pool and Winston's like, Hi, I'm here again. We got a bushemy test this movie. Yeah, although have you seen pictures of a young Steve Bush? I feel like, yes,

I had, And You're like, okay, I'm listening. I get it. Yes, mr man who's followed me to a pool? Yes, Well, in the movie when she's like this pool scene, Danny Glover was in the movie and all of his scenes get cut, but remember the part where she's like help me. There's this like old man over there trying to hit on me. That's Danny Glover did not know, but they cut everything except for that kind of like wide shot where you can't even tell it. It's also because he's

like in old makeup. They like aged him up to make him look older, um, so you can't tell that it's him. But anyway, they cut all of his scenes. So she's like, this old guy is trying to hit on me, and he's like, well, so am I And she's like, what you're trying like someone doesn't like you just danced with this man for six hours in a row. When he when you arrived at the pajama party, he stared directly at your breast for a while before looking into your face to talk to you. And you're like,

but you're attracted to me? What? It's so rom calm now, it's so nineties rom calm. We're like the female leaders like momum mum me. It's like duh, yes, right, even though I mean when they met, he like comes over to her and he's like, let's have breakfast together. You're so beautiful party with me. Yeah, in the moment they meet, but she is like not aware that he is hitting on her because she's like, wait, you want to be intimate with me? And he's like yeah, and she's like okay.

So then cut too. They're in her hotel room and she okay, I don't know how to describe this for play that happens, but it's like it's awkward at first, and then he thinks she's like in her bed, all under the covers, lying completely still, so then he takes off all of his clothes but surprised she's behind him, so she like jumps on him, and then they're like and then a weird scene, but you're like, it's hot, but it's weird. Yes, it's goofy, and then they and

then they have sex. But then and I was getting a little confused by this because it seems like he kind of blows her off, or she interprets it as being blown off because he very suddenly gets a job and he's like not available to hang out with her the rest of this vacation. I mean, I mean I I kind of interpreted it where she didn't believe that he had gotten the job, and so she's like, I'm being blown off and he made up an excuse to not hang out with me. Yeah, that's what I thought.

She thought, Yeah, okay, it was like an insecurity thing. But he did get a job. But he did get a job. Yeah, he wasn't lying. I think she assumed that he was making up an excuse to blow her off. But I do have a quick question. She's staying at a resort. Why is he at the resort? Great question, Like he's there for breakfast and he's not working there. He's just he has a hat, like he lives with his family kind of close. Why is he there? Why is he there? I thought that too. I did not

think that. Well, he does say at one point like I'm here trying to get a job. So I don't know if he's just sort of lingering by the resort because he ends up getting a job in the kitchen is like a chef. They're like, well, you seem to be here a lot, so would you like a job? That seems like something my mom would suggest though, like for how to get a job, Well, you just going there hanging out. See what happens the bound to do something?

You're there, So I mean that's how a lot of comedy clubs like they're like, oh, well, if you want to get booked here. You just have to spend your entire life here and then we'll maybe think about booking you. Maybe there's a guy named Josh that you got to see him. He makes people laugh so much, so we're gonna book him. But not you remember comedy, Okay? Um?

So anyway, she's like she's pissed that that. She thinks like she's being blown off, and she goes back home to San Francisco, where she gets fired from her job. She's like, no, what am I gonna do? But then she gets a call from Winston and he's like, I miss you. Come back to Jamaica, and and then cut to she's back, very unclear of I was like, I was like, is it summer? Like it's okay that Quincy is Quincy skipping school to the time of this movie.

The timing of this movie is not clear because she's like, hey, I told Quincy maybe we'd go down for the summer. Wait when was he with his dad? How long is their relationship before They're like, we'll get to that stuff. But it feels like this feels all very fast. In California, you can't tell the weather, but what right, especially because

like and yeah, we'll get to this too. But like he moves in with her at one point and it's like, but you've only been hanging out for two nonconsecutive weeks, Like, yeah, I don't know anyway, So she so she returns to Jamaica, this time with her son and niece, so she's hanging

out with Winston. He introduced Stella to his parents, but it doesn't go well, like his mom comments on Stella's age, calls her desperate stuff like that, um, And then Stella gets word that Delilah is having a medical emergency due to cancer, which Stella didn't know Delilah had, So Stella returns to the US. Delilah dies, Um, Winston shows up at the funeral, and then he moves in with Stella

like they're now they're living together again. The timeline is very unclear because because you get some idea of time when you find out that Whoopie Goldberg has been in the hospital for two weeks, but then you're like, well, what, they don't live in the same place, so I don't know, like you, it's very unclear, right, yeah, for sure, But he's living with her now, and some issues arise in their relationship. The age gap is weighing on Stella in particular.

Winston is kind of self conscious about not being as financially secure as she is, and Stella is just kind of overall feeling sort of aimless about her life and her career. And then Winston asks Stella to marry him, and she does not give an answer, and a week or so passes and he's like, well, clearly I'm not the man you want, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna go back to Jamaica and go to medical school. So he packs his things up and heads to the airport.

But Stella beats him to the airport. We don't know how good driver. There's a little okay, she's a jet. There's a little throw away line from the radio broadcast where we so we see Winston in the cab and on the radio it's like, well, the one oh one is is there's so much traffic, so if you're going

to the airport, good luck. But the two eighties, the coast is clear, So apparently that lets the audience know that Stella took that highway instead, and that's how she beats him to the airport, because when he enters, she's already there. She's looking around frantically and then they spot each other and then she's like, yes, I will marry you, and then they kiss and that's the end of the movie.

They're gonna live happily ever after. In my head, I'm like, it's not gonna work out back the stress of him being younger plus going through medical school. Also, are they just given out admission into Stanford Medical? Like she's just like, oh my god. What she was like, just go to Stanford And she's like, Stanford has a medal school school, right, why don't you just go there? No application, no waiting process,

no interviews. That's like a what That is a testament to the power of Angela Bassett because when she said it, I'm like, oh, yeah, why didn't he think of that when that is objectively so ridiculous. Yeah, we're just like, oh, yeah, that's what he'll do. Howevard's got a medical school there. That was I was as because I forgot if they

get together at the end or not. And so after they broke up, just when he's like, I'm going to go to middle school school, I was sitting next to my boyfriend and I was like, but there's doctors in America don't go like and Angela Basset felt the same way, because that's what Stella says. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and we're back.

Uh where where to begin with? I feel like, so okay, just to I guess contextualize when this movie came out, I feel like this movie falls squarely in kind of the golden age of rom com movies, where it's like the nineties into the mid two thousand's. It's kind of a ten year period where problematic rom coms are just

several times a year. There are many actresses associated with the genre, but this is, like I now, especially after rewatching it, I think for all of the silly things that we're going to talk about, of which there are many, I think it's one of the best, and it's one of the most like grounded, interested in its main characters, interested in subverting what you kind of think about this genre while also doing a lot of silly things associated

with this genre. Agree yeah, Like there's she sets boundaries in this movie in a way that I'm like, hell yeah, Like I don't feel like a lot of characters in rom coms are like, actually, I don't like you talk to me like this and this is a clear issue and let's have a discussion about it. It's like, for some reason I made up in my head that you're cheating on me, and now we're fighting. Like the a lot of the disagreements that they have seemed justified in like, uh,

we set boundaries, oh, misunderstanding sort of way. Yeah. I love that she That's like one of the best things that you you never see if you see a woman in a round com set a boundary, it's almost as like, I feel like it's framed as like a challenge to cross it, and it's no means yes situation which we see in round comms all the time of like stay away from me, Titanic, stay away from me, and then he's shows up and then she's like, you're right, I love you, and I don't know. I like that Stella.

By and large, there's a few moments where you're like, what happened there? Uh? But I like that Stella is I mean, not just setting boundaries with Winston, kind of setting boundaries with everyone. She sets boundaries with her sisters, especially Angela deserves it, who deserves it? But even Angela kind of has that moment of like they have an actual discussion and Angela I was, I was like, is

she going to be like a shrewd character? But then she has a moment of they have a moment of understanding and apology, and you can sort of understand why Angela's worried about Stella, but also it's like, why are you behaving so rudely? But yeah, she sets boundaries that should not be revolutionary and around calm, but it is, especially because I mean, I don't know still even how much I would classify this as a rum calm, because

I mean there are humorous starts this one. Yeah, and it takes a little bit of a tonal shift, especially when Whoopie Goldberg dies. Okay, that did not need to happen at all, not at all. I think that, well, I think it happens because this is kind of loosely autobiographical for Terry McMillan, which we'll talk about more. But um, she mentions in some interview that I watched that around this time in her life her best friend died, so I think she just incorporated that into this story, but

doesn't make sense for what else happens. In the movie, I don't know, maybe not, but I mean a lot of rom coms there's like a very kind of tried and true structure where it's like either um, they're usually

very hetero. So it's like the man and the woman can't be together because they start out hating each other, or they're starting to fall in love, but one of them has lied to the other one about something very significant and they'll have to come clean by you know, the end of the second act, and what is that going to mean for their relationship? So these are the formulas. So this this movie doesn't fall into that formula at all.

It's more just like here, here's a woman who knows what she wants, who's already very established in her life because she's forty, she's a mother, and she has her ship together. And then along comes Winston Shakespeare who is just too hot to ignore and and he like worships her, and she's just like, Okay, you know what I deserve this. I deserve someone who likes me and who cares about me. And even though do they have anything in common, they don't.

They don't, but you know, they mostly get along and they're very attracted to each other here. So that's why they're together. I guess, yeah, I mean, whether they are, I mean, it's it's one of those things where I think it speaks to how ingrained this kind of format is, where it's like, even if you pretty much know it doesn't make sense and a breakup between them is probably healthier for both of them, and they basically almost make

the practical decision. You would be so upset of that and kiss at the end because it's a movie, but like realistically this would um most likely not work out. But I under I mean again, it's like going into the autobiographical stuff, which I guess we should just sort of address at the top. So, um, this movie was based on a novel by Terry McMillan, who we have discussed on the show before because she's also the author

and co screenwriter of Waiting to Exhale. She is and I con of this era and now she's still writing. She has like some fun quotes that I want to

go to for an interview she did this year. Um, But why her personal life is relevant to this is because a lot of it is pulled from her own life directly, where she went on a vacation in her early forties, met a man who was twenty year in his early twenties and they got married and so like she lived out the full house, Della got her groove up back narrative at least, and and you know in n this is reflective of her full experience where they get married and Terry McMillan got married to what was

his name, his name Jonathan Plumber, Jonathan Plummer. So they do get married and as of nine they are married and it's all good, and later on it became and I guess, I guess like I only feel comfortable talking about this because she was very public about discussing it and even as of this year, was like, yeah, no regrets.

But so it turned out that their relationship was kind of built on a lot of asterisks in that he was a gay man and that he married her to get I mean it was she said, and then he sort of said it was to get a green card. So their marriage fell apart in the early to mid two thousands, Terry McMillan went, there's two different Oprah episodes

about it. It's all very of the era where Caitlin and I both watched through the interviews where the first episode, she goes on Oprah and she's like, I feel so betrayed. I feel like, what is happening? This is so, this is like horrible, which, yeah, that sounds like a very interest experience. Yeah, but she goes on Oprah to be like what the fuck? And then like five years after that,

she and Christopher or not Christopher Plumber. Oh my god, Monathan, I would love Christopher Flummer just you know, when you're like trying so hard not to make a mistake and then you just make it. Um the sound of music, How Stella Gotta Grow Back right there, one after the other, boom boom, his biggest legacy, it was got The love

story between Terry McMillan and Christopher Plummer didn't end well. Um, So she and her ex husband Jonathan Plummer go on Oprah like five is years after that in and everything is kind of cool. But they discussed their experience to hear both perspectives, and that's kind of like a wrap on, you know, because How Stella Gotta Grow Back is so autobiographical.

I guess that's how it really would have ended. But this movie was made in and we didn't know what Terry McMillan would come to know it a later time, right. But that said Terry McMillan, I know we discussed her on the Waiting to Xcale episode, but she's bucking awesome. Um. She's an iconic black writer who also made the jump into adapting her own work, which I feel like is very rare. She she adapts it with and we all I'm going to just breathe through it because we talked

about it on the other episode. She partners with Ron Bass, who is like kind of a controversial white male screenwriter who I don't I mean, make of him what you will. I guess He's written a lot, He's co written a lot of wonderful movies. He seems often paired with a first time or less experienced screenwriter, but he is very for us, straight says hat white guy. He is very often writing on projects that are about marginalized communities, which

I don't know, I mean. He co wrote rain Man, He adapted The Joy Luck Club with Amy Tan who was the original and who is the author of the novel, and then he adapted Waiting the Exhale and Stella got her groove back with Terry McMillan, there's also like a side controversy where there's it's speculated that all of his screenplays are sort of written by his female assistance. That's the whole thing. He seems somewhat controversial, but there's not a ton written about him. I wasn't really able to

land anywhere. It's all a little sus to me. Terry McMillan at least liked him enough to collaborate with him a second time. This is the second collaboration, so I don't know, let's ignore him. Terry McMillan is awesome. Yeah, this is like partially based on her life. Yes, just kind of two piggyback a little bit more on her and her kind of like legacy and stuff, and that we can kind of get back more into the specifics

of Stella. I was reading an article from The Guardian entitled it was just sort of like um kind of profiling Hurts and titled novelist Terry McMillan on Love, Death

and Dirty Secrets. They describe the Terry McMillan affect uh quote, a phrase some used to describe the publishing industry discovering how starved for relatable stories Black women are or were which is like very I mean, Terry McMillan has written like a few of only a small handful of movies about like that celebrate like black womanhood and that like

celebrate black female friendship. And again like I mean we talked about this on the Set It Off episode where there's only like as far as like kind of more mainstream movies go there, there's like a Girl's Trip, there's waiting to exhale as far as like an ensemble cast of black women like and their story, like there's just so little so um yeah, I mean and and and Terry McMillan and her work has like contributed to what little there is is are is like cinematic stories, so

we are we are grateful for that. Um but yeah, I mean it does. It goes to show how how few of these types of stories there are. You know, audiences want more and studios keep just not making enough. I will say HBO makes stories for black women in a way that I'm like, guys, look how well these shows are doing for HBO. Just like I'm not even asking you to be good people, just make a good financial decision, Like all the black women I know watch TV, if they watch movies, They go out, they do things,

they give money to black stuff. All you have to do is make black stuff. Some of it is not good, but we are still going to buy it, just like it makes good economic sense because we're like, yes, that is me, thank you, thank you. I don't have to mentally put myself in the body of a blonde, thin, white woman who's younger than me to have a story.

Thank you, Okay, please give this to me. Yeah, And that's only I feel like that's been in pretty recent years to things secure and yeah, and prior to that, it was just like, well, let's give another you know, white blonde person a show. Yeah, there's a lot of Terry McMillan in the screenplay. It's hard to not bring

her up every two seconds. But she also speaks to another thing that I think how Stella got a group that kind of deviates from your cookie cutter romantic movie from the late nineties um which is addressing an age gap in text at all, especially an age gap where the woman in the relationship is older. She spoke about this in an interview this year where she just says, quote, nobody talked about it back then, meaning age gaps and she's like, at the time, for women dating a younger

man felt like a dirty secret. And so she's like, directly, I mean, not only because it sounds like she got a fair amount of blowback about an age gap in her her own life, but also because it's like, well, if she was feeling this way, she guessed correctly that other women were feeling this way, and she'd never seen it addressed in a in a large way that doesn't bring a lot of that examines it without like casting shame.

I don't know, it's awesome. Well, let's let's let's talk about this, the age gap in this movie, and kind of I mean, we've talked at length on the podcast about double standards when it comes to just kind of romance across the board, for like hetero relationships in particular, where it is deemed as being socially acceptable or more socially acceptable for an older man to date a far younger woman, whereas, uh, if an older woman is dating a younger man, a lot of people take a lot

of issue with it for reasons that are of course rooted in setism and agism. You know, society not finding value in older women, society having rigid beauty standards that glorify youth and demonize the natural process of aging. Uh, you know, just reasons like that. And so in the movie we see you know it's it's Stella is forty, Winston is twenty. He has just finished his like four year college degree in biology. He's kind of gearing up to maybe go to med school, but he also doesn't

know if that's what he wants. So that's where he's at in his life. Whereas Stella is established in her career, which she does get fired from later, but at the beginning of that, I will say, is like and I think it's also seen in Waiting to Exhale, there's this of the nineties. There's this like respectable black woman and like she's got to be hyper competent, and they really like she's on the phone with like three different people. She's like telling a white assistant that she needs to

go do this and that and the other. It is this competency porn that like informs how I was like, Oh, this is how I'm going to be when I'm forty. Oh my god, that's like this is what being an adult is. Uh yeah, it's I'm happy that we're moving away from that because that's very hard to both achieve and maintain. But sure, yeah, yeah, but it needs it was nice to see that when I was growing up.

Sure yeah. And and like it is like an unfair standard. Yeah, because like you know, black women can be mediocre to like they don't have to be like they don't have to be these like rich awesome stockbrokers, can be semi unemployed comedians. Yes, we can do it all. Just show us doing all the things. Yes, thank you, Oh my god, that that scene. I was I mean I was back and forth on that because I totally see what you're

saying there. I And but this is also the most I've ever seen a one and do her job and us understand what her job is in a romance movie, where usually it's like, Hi, I'm a curator. Don't ask me why I'm interested in this or how I got

this job. I'm a curator. I'm a baker, and it's like you don't know what their passion is and you don't know, Yeah I don't, but but that that there are two that's a it's a double edged sword where I hadn't even considered that they're bringing it up, not for no reason, and yeah, and I think there's a whole other conversation to be had about her career and her interests in making furniture. Um, so I won't dive into that too much yet. So back to the kind

of age gap thing where so Winston approaches her. There's never any like I'm reminded of like an episode of thirty Rock, where like Tina Fay starts dating a much younger man but they're both lying about their age because it's like, oh no, so she's pretending to be like thirty even though she's like thirty eight or something, and he's pretending to be even though he's twenty. So there's nothing like that in this story and how Stella got her grow back. They are both extremely upfront about their

age right off the bat. Winston doesn't seem to have an issue with it at all. He learns how old she is, and he does say some stuff that he thinks is a compliment, and it's not a compliment because he's like, you're forty. You're too hot to be forty, because forty year old people look like shit, is what he's Yeah, he's like, I've never seen a forty year old woman look as beautiful as you, and it's like, I know you think you're complimenting her, but that's not

a compliment. Um anyway, you don't need to tear down every other forty or your old woman that's ever existed in the process, right um. In any case, they're both made aware of each other's age right off the bat, and it is something that um Stella especially struggles. She's getting flak from nearly everybody in her life about it. Her sister, especially Angela, is like, you cradle Robert. Delilah teases her about it, although Delilah is also like, police

have sex with him immediately. Yeah, she's very supportive in a short term sense. At first she's supportive of a fling, and then when it becomes a relationship, she dies. We don't really know, because she dies, it kills her. I do, I do kind of. I mean I think that I don't know. There's good parts of how this is handled in bad parts. I feel like the fact that the age gap is discussed so much, taking the autobiographical elements

out of it and just viewing strictly as story. The fact to me that they are constantly talking about the age gap has a lot to do with the gender dynamics at play here, because we see in movies all the time, uh, male lead who has a much younger who has a twenty year age gap or more with a female love interest, and most of the time it's not even addressed, or if it is addressed, it's addressed through a joke or some kind of like whatever. But it's like it's a non issue. Where in those relationships

as well, age gap is like for sure. I mean, I'm like, I'm like, how does Leonardo DiCaprio connect with his girlfriends? I don't know, what do they talk about? What did they there's such a I feel like we've maybe brought it up before. But there's a really funny clip of Leonardo DiCaprio knowing exactly what happens in season one of Euphoria, and it's fully because he only dates twenty two year olds that watch Euphoria. But he's like, yeah, as it as Euphoria season one, episode five famously said,

I'm like, oh, your girlfriends are so young. Um, He's like, my girlfriend was born the year Titanic came out, And you're like often times, in any case, we're I'm not here to like cast a ton of judgment on relationships with age gaps. What I'm saying is that it does feel very intentional, that it's when there is an older woman and a younger man that it has brought up constantly and brought up to shame her versus I think when you we see it in the reverse, it's like hell, yeah, dude,

Like look what you did. So that's like a really real thing where we've seen it in like pop culture a ton where it's like they're kind of like mother than like they're cougars, they're like predators, they're blah blah

blah town. Do you guys think that she would be as villainized and do you think that some of the plot points of this would go away if he happened to be a rich twenty year old Oh, Because like the thing that initiates some of their fights is like what he can afford, what he can't afford, what he's

had access to, what he has had access to. Like when she's on the phone talking to wi Be Goldberg, when she goes down to Jamaica a second time, she's like, he hasn't really done anything, and he hasn't traveled anywhere. Should we just be dating rich twenty year olds, I guess, is my question. It makes you think there is kind of a class thing. But also like he's the son of a surgeon, so he's not actually poor. He just like isn't making any of his own money really at

this point. So it's yeah, I don't it's weird. Yeah, okay, I'm not sure. I just want an excuse I have this man on a lot now, I'm kidding. I No, I mean that is like a class is I mean, can you you already started discussing it? But like class is a thing in this movie that it isn't. It's only brought up kind of in one scene, kind of where scene I really like where Stella is talking about why does she work in the job she wants? And it's not because it's something she was passionate about. She

was passionate about furniture question mark. But that did feel so tacked on. You're like, okay, sure, yeah, she likes furniture. I've ever seen a passion for furniture in a romantic movie before, so I guess that's new groundbreaking. Yeah, but I like the scene where she's talking about, well, I didn't take this job because I felt passionately about it. I took it because, like my mom was passionate about

me being lifted out of poverty. And that is a really powerful, potent conversation that is really only kind of addressed through the furniture storyline, but it is. It's like she's she has I mean, look at her house. Yeah, that's a nice she has money, and my apartment could fit in her furniture studio, and I'm just like, wow, okay, cocoo coockoo coo, you just have my apartment to sitting behind your house unused. You haven't been back there in years?

Is okay? Interesting? Okay, Yeah, there's uh, poor people don't really come into play in this movie at all, which is kind of to me. Compounded and the fact that it takes place at or a lot of it takes place at a like resort, which are famously exploitative, like take from poor people and so yeah, class this genre just doesn't like to acknowledge poor people. Yeah, really, like, for all the things that this movie does, right, that

is not one of them. Yeah. The closest thing I think would be like Regina King needs to borrow three hundred dollars because she has a job, but it's a lower paying job and she doesn't seem to be earning enough to make ends meet. But she drives an ambulance, which those are some of the funniest parts of the movie.

Someone's being loaded into the ambulance clearly having a medical emergency and they're like, come on, let's go, and she's like, in a minute, I'm on the phone because she didn't get you so funny all the time, she's been funny. She can do funny everywhere. But yeah, they do kind of like they don't even address it. But when when Stella goes and meets Winston's parents and she's trying to be nice because she since is the situation is awkward, She's like, oh, can I help with anything, and the

mom very quickly asserts the workers can do that. It was just like this weird thing that's like no, no, no no, we're wealthy, like and it seems like she was playing with class in that moment too, because I don't think

she knows that Stella is like a wealthy person. It was just like it was this weird like, let's constantly shift the dynamics so that you are not comfortable and then the rest of that scene is Winston's mom being like, you pathetic piece of ship dating my son, which brings us back to the the age gap thing where like, yeah, Jamie, you were saying, we're not here to like shame people in relationships that have an age gap. No, And in fact,

it's like, I'm fully supportive of that. They should like if this is a relationship they want they like each other, like yeah, yeah, who are their families and friends to

be like this isn't okay? It's just the I think it's just the amount of discussion that's had about it that is, but that it's like it's indicative, and yeah, it gets talked about a lot in this movie, but that's only because it is very much mirroring how society feels about this dynamic of the older woman and the younger man, and like Stella has been conditioned to think like this isn't okay, Like what am I doing? And then Winston's just like I don't give a ship like

I love you, um so, but yeah, it's just it is. Yeah, it's just interesting. It's kind of just worth noting that so much of their conversations or about there's a when he's in the pool. He was like, say it a three million times that way, I never have to hear it again about how you're twenty years older than me.

Like he keeps trying to get her to get it out of her system because he's like, I don't care as much as you do, and she's like, ah, but yeah, it's only because like she is a product of her environment of like living in a society where people don't deem it acceptable for older women to be romantic prospects or to be sexually viable, even though Angela Bassett is the most beautiful woman on the planet, Like I want, okay, I have six years to get to like she's forty, right,

Like someone's like, you look good for forty, she looks good for all time, And I have six years to get to that level if I'm going to meet Like my mental projection of what forty looks like it is in fury. I just Angela Bassett to me all time. Like if I if I would write a movie about myself,

I would cast Angela Bassett as me today. I just she's If you had the choice, you'd be like, yes, Angela Bassett, I wanted to look like I can punch someone in the face, like with barely moving my fans, She's got the best, Like I just I love her so much. Okay, skin is flawless. Her arms, her arms, her arms, shoulder combination puts some Michelle Obama to shame. And it's glorious. Everyone in this movie is unconscionably beautiful.

Like it's just it's it's rude, It's just it's yeah, Like it's also I kept getting confused because I'm like Angela Bassett and then also a character named Angela, how dare you like, I don't do that? That's rude, passive aggressive. But also I'm like, I guess you know, Terry McMillan didn't know Angela Bassett was going to be in it,

but she should have should have. Yeah, the way that people react, I mean, it's especially that scene with with Winston's mother where that was a scene I didn't like, where I know that Winston's mom is reflecting the judgment of society at large on relationships where there's an older woman and a younger man. But I also I didn't like how anyone handled that scene really because in my head, and I mean, I'm like, I who am I to

tell Stella what she should have done. But it's like Stella has a young son herself, and I felt like there was a meeting ground in that conversation where she's like, Okay, I understand why you would worry about your son. I also have a young son, but like, please consider that your son is an adult and is making choice and like, but the framing of his mother is just kind of like truly like a one line of dialogue shrew like character. And then we don't even she's never discussed again, Like

it never comes up again. Who's paying for his medical school? I just like, did they cut him off? After that? It doesn't seem like it. And then after Winston, his mom completely rails against Stella. She's like outside and she's like I've never been more humiliated in my life. And Winston's like, don't you think you might be overreacting? And she's like, no, she said all these things to me and then granted, like a few seconds later, he's like, yeah,

that was out of line. I'm sorry, Like but he's just like, I'm you're overreacting and it's like, um no, she's not. Uh let's take another quick break, and then we will come right back for a more discussion. Well, something I just wanted to bring up briefly because just for fear of sounding hypocritical, because depending on when this episode gets released, we will either have just released or are about to release an episode on the movie ghost World.

And in that movie, there's a relationship between a an eighteen year old girl and a forty one year old man, and I think is how those ages break down and and the age gap is brought up more than which I mean to give it the smallest amount of credit,

at least the age gap is addressed. Where did in that kind of relationship It wouldn't even be referenced, right And then so in that episode, we took a big issue with the fact that, like, this sexual relationship happens between this very young woman and an older man, whereas on this episode, I'm like, yes, Stella, get it, go have sex of day digs who cares at these twenty years younger than you? And I think that has a lot to do with So if you're like Caitlin, you're

being a hypocrite. But in my defense, um, I feel like it has a lot to do with how each of these movies frame those relationships because the the age gap in the kind of the ages of these characters are all pretty similar between these two movies, but the circumstances are different enough. Where thora Birch's character is still a teenager, she's only just graduated high school, she's still taking a high school art class, whereas Winston is not a teenager. He's a few years older and more mature.

He has finished college, he's in his twenties. So I know, I mean, I'm I feel conflicted about this because like, on one hand, I'm like, yeah, Stella, like, go have sex with Ta Diggs, And then I'm like Steve BOUSHEMI get away from Thora Birch. Yeah, I think definitely, everyone go back to that episode if you want to hear more about it. I feel the same thing. I mean,

I don't know. I think this movie, by and large, I agree that Diggs is not fully mature, but is more mature than thora Birch's character, and ghost World putting one against the other I don't think really makes sense because they're really different relationships, yeah, and really different characters who are in different stages of life. But in any case, yes,

there's a lot that I like. I I do like that this movie addresses his age gaps and kind of I mean in some that you could view as kind of dismissive of the younger person, where it's like there's Coco pups in my bed, he wants to watch the Lion King here. There were a couple of things that I was like, this doesn't feel consistent where it was like the Coco pups in the bed. During the call when he's like you should come back to Jamaica, He's very serious until this weird it felt tacked on thing

where he's like and can you bring junk food? Like the cocoa puss, Like all that stuff just makes it like, okay, you guys wanted to emphasize that he was young, but like that that felt very tacked on for sure. Yeah. That that like I was like, what, he's an adult, he has a job, he has a biology degree. Why isn't it And it's like, I mean, who among us doesn't want us sometimes the Lion King? That's fair, I thought.

The best the best way this was tackled was in the movie theater scene where he wanted to see kind of I guess like a movie that skewed very young that was like she didn't she didn't think was good. And then they run into her gregnant sister and her gregnant sisters like Judge has been in friends and they're like, oh, did you like that? The ending was so sad, and Stella was embarrassed to be like I saw this movie for teenagers and they were like, oh, Stella, that's wild

to me that. Yeah, you know, like who would be like, oh, actually I didn't see like I didn't see Schindler's List. I saw my big fact Greek wedding. And then people are like, wow, what's wrong with you? Like how you fall? Young people see serious movies and older people see movies that are fun. Yeah, I think it was. It was like it was just that they went to a comedy and then her sister Angela was like, oh you saw

a comedy. Also, that scene is so weird because there's this guy whose name either his name is Judge or his jaw is that he's a Judge. I'm not sure, but he's Judge Red Judge Reinald is there. This is the guy who Angela had previously tried to set Stella up with before, who had called her. But then you know, it all fizzles out when she starts having sex with Tay Digs. But he's there and he seems to be

with another woman on a date. But he's like, Stella, let's get together sometime, let's go running, and and she's his date is framed to seem very frigid, but I'm like, no, she's totally right. Like he's he's asking another one out in front of her when he's on a date with

this this other woman. Weird. Um, yes, weird. There's there's a few other really silly scenes to me, the four play scene where like Winston like tries to flirt with her by like putting ice on her back, and then Stella like freaks out and he's like, oh, I'm going

to go to the bathroom. And then when he comes back, he sees what I guess she had like deliberately like made it so it looked like she was lying in the bed all covered up completely still, and he's like, well, I better take off my clothes then, and then she pounces on him from behind and then it's like all flirty again. I was like, I'm not sure whose four plague goes like this and if it's effective and if it works for you, fine, but I was just like,

what is happening. I definitely felt that is a thing that he read in a book or a magazine, like, oh, you gotta try this sex move, women love it. And when he did that, and she's like, I swear to

God you ever in your life. Also, this is a question that you guys probably asked later, But like, I know very few twenty year olds now who would have the confidence to be like, Hey, you're a lady and I like looking at you, and we should hang out more even though you're a stranger, and I will continue to hit on you even when you say you're not sure about the relationship. I feel like the twenty year old guys I know right now have a hard time

even with the first part of that. I have never spoken to a twenty year old since I was like two, So I'm I don't know how they are right now. I don't know what they're like. There's I mean, I think, yeah, for this, it's tough because it's like I want to say one thing, but it's like I also, you also need to contextualize it very carefully, because I do believe for this relationship to make sense in the movie, you

have to have some sort of suspension of disbelief. But when I say that, I'm not saying that relationships with age gap require suspension of disbelief. It's just how this one is sometimes presented to you that you're just like, what, like things like why is he at this resort all

the time? Is that even allowed? It's like there's just a lot of little things you need to suspend in order for it to work where And there's kind of like an equally loaded discussion that I've found around this movie of this movie has on Rotten Tomatoes, which just fully ridiculous. Um, and you can just I mean, we've talked about it all the time, but there's so many corny white guye reviews of this movie that are just like,

I don't understand. It's not I want to see this good. Yeah, it must be bad since it wasn't made for me. It's the it's kind of the typical bullshit there. But I saw a lot of reviews even current. Um, there's like an A V Club article about this when on the twentie anniversary two years ago, referring to it as like a romantic fantasy, And I feel like fantasy is a loaded term because it is fantastic plot wise that

this relationship works out. But I feel like the implication there is that it's a fantasy for an older woman to be cared about and desired and loved by a younger man. So I don't like the way the word fantasy is deployed in this movie, even though I fully don't think their relationship is going to work for the reasons illustrated in the movie. But that's that's why these two people I don't think would be in a relationship that would function. Not every relationship with an age gap

like this, Yeah, you know, it's confused. It's more to me, it's like, what are they compatible about. They don't seem to have anything in common. They don't seem to have that much chemistry. Like, yes, they're both extremely attractive, but like, actually when they're on maybe maybe I just don't know how to read chemistry on screen. But I'm just like, do they even like what? I don't know? Um, But the more important, I mean, they just they don't know

common interests. What are their interests besides making furniture for Stella and having sex with each other and having sex with each other? So I think sex. I guess I would have just liked to see both of their characters developed a bit more interest in terms of like what what about them is compatible, which would really help me. I would I would be rooting for them more if that were the case. Yeah, but either way, I'm still like, yeah, like, get into that shower, Stella with all of your clothes

on while Digs is naked. That I was like, wow, so a she Angela Bassett is one of the few people who can look good while wet, like while coming out of water and not looking like a dog that's been like hit in the face. That's how most people look when they are wet. She looks great when she does it, so that's crazy. Second thing, she decides to go to Jamaica, Like the next day they go to Jamaica. The type of braids that she have takes like ten hours to do. So I'm like, bitch, what are you

talking about. That's not realistic at all to me, and that She's just like, yes, I will get my hair wet and okay, I right now have braids. These things hold water like. You wouldn't believe that she's gonna fucking a shower. And then be carried into her bed and then funk. They're like, her bed is soaking wet. There's water everywhere, there's a pool from the bathroom to her. It's a mess. There was not a towel in sight. I just this is the thing that I could not

disbelieve she suld. We see her get her hair wet like three different times in the movie. She's always underwater. Very Wet movie. Yes, I think that is how people describe this moving forward her groove the Very Wet Movie. Yes. I mean the poster is her in front of the beach um exactly after she goes into the shower with him,

which and she's also wearing all of her clothes. She's like wearing a sweater and she's like, I'm just going to step into the shower with you and we're going to kiss, and then it cuts to like them in bed and he's like, I think the implication is like he has fucked her so good that she's crying because there's like tears coming out of her. Oh. I thought

she was crying because she was confused. I think it is like a last time we had like that, because I've ever done this in a relationship where you know, this is the last time where you're like, this isn't gonna work. We both know it's not gonna work. We're gonna take this one last evening together. And then it's like I took it as a like, well that was the last of it. Cry that that makes way more sense. Yeah, I know she is crying because she's sad because they

she's like, we have nothing in common. Yeah. So when I do think that this is to Caitlin's point that they don't develop these characters enough. I think one thing that a lot of black movies in the nineties have to deal with is that you're trying to be respectable to the point where like, what are her flaws? Like that she likes work. It like they're very much so trying to make her like Nope, she's not like a single mom in the way that you think of a

black single mom. No, no, no, she's very professional. Okay, she's also dedicated. She's also athletic. She's got good God, we need to know she's athletic, and she has a passion.

Maybe she needs to return to it. But like that, but like she can't have some of those depths of character because she's so busy trying to like or the like, the people who wrote it, whatever, are so busy trying to make her seem perfect and unassailable, right, And I feel like that probably stems from black filmmakers trying to correct some of the damage that's been done regarding representation of black people in movies prior to this, because like, before this, it was, I mean, it was a lot

of really racist archetypal characters like you know, the Mammy's and the Bucks and like really horrible and really damaging, reductive troops like that. It was also black exploitation films and those characters. It was black characters who were in movies with predominantly white casts who were there playing characters who were criminals or pimps or you know, just again all the reductive, racist representations or just an absence or

a lack of black characters and media. So I feel like black filmmakers in more recent decades have had the burden of trying to repair some of that damage that was done, of course by mostly white filmmakers with really positive representations of black characters in their movies. And I feel like it just kind of lent itself to some black characters who were almost too perfect, who had no flaws and tons of wealth and awesome jobs, like the

model minority trope. Like of yeah, because I feel like, I mean, there's so much from this generation of entertainment that I mean that was I feel like, I mean, aside from Bill Cosby, Like that's a lot of what previously a lot of the conversation around the Cosby Show was was was like the first or one of the first major black sitcoms that was popular across everywhere, but it was pulling from a lot of model minority like this is a very wealthy, you know, class privileged family.

But then that means like, then you just have the like characters who don't end up being that well developed or who feel just a little bit more kind of stock character without any flaws because like which I understand like wanting to write characters that way, especially based on like the poor representation that had been seen in movies prior to that. But yeah, and then it just means like, Okay, well, then Angela Bassett is perfect. Have any flaws? Did you guys?

This is a very specific reference, but there's an SNL skit where they try to make a Barbie they make an Asian barbie, and they like are trying so much not to fall into stereotypes that they're like, she has a chef's hat and a dog. That's it. We're not saying she's a cook though, We're not saying what her likes and interest are because we don't want. Like, I haven't seen that, but that sounds pretty funny. It's like a barbie developed by a focus group to like not

offend anyone. It's just she has a chef's head. That that's the doll. That what you will, that's funny. I mean, it's like it's it's such a frustrating thing to feel like this movie is hung up on, but like, in context of the time it comes up, I feel like it does line up pretty cleanly with I mean, not just the genre it's then, but like a lot of the common tropes around black characters in the genre of

the time. Yeah, including I mean, including the other Terry McMillan m adaptation we've covered, right, I mean, I will say I like this movie. I saw it for the first time this year with a bottle of wine and a lot of cheese, and it was perfect as God intended. Yes, as a mid thirties lady. This is it was right a shot straight to the I don't know basketball, but like you get it, like a three point from that line,

nothing but net shot. It was made for me. But yeah, it does have I'm like she she doesn't like get mad or like have a problem of any Okay, right, I mean there are there issues with in the relationship, but even so, the relationship is based on what like what are they what are they like? What do they

have in common? Anyway? Yeah, man, it does seem and and I do appreciate that he kind of realizes that at some point and then we still get our kind of irrational happy ending um, but he also kind of realizes, like, oh right, like I what am I doing? You know, It's like I've really inserted myself in Stella's life, and like what, I don't know, it's it's I do like that. Well, I do think, you know, all the characters are undeveloped to varying degrees. I don't know why I'm defending this

movie so much. I really like it, Like they're less underdeveloped than a lot of characters in this genre, because

like this is just the undeveloped genre where Winston. Okay, A choice that I thought in this movie that was really cool is you get like a female gaye cinematography approach to Taye Digs at first, though not for the whole movie where it's not making the like how I mean, like how Megan Fox and how many like you know, conventionally attractive women are treated on screen, where it's just like assumed, this is how we're gonna look at her.

Where I feel like the cinematography choices in this movie are cool because we are seeing him through Stella's eyes, So at first she's barely listening to what he's saying. He's talking about medical school, but it's a slow pan on his body. But once she gets to know him, you don't really get those shots anymore because that's not

how she's seeing him anymore. She's seeing him as a whole person and like there is more to him than I mean, and there's like he's certainly not He is kind of like a spoiler rich kid who's figuring out his ship in a lot of ways, to the point where I mean, who can afford to just hang out at a resort, like you know, yeah, those meals are not cheap, No, I'm just like, and then he's always like,

I have no money. I'm like until you text your mom, Like what he bought her like this heavy piece, like this big piece of like equipment for her furniture workshop. He also buys her an engagement ring, likes he pays for that meal at that restaurant that he offers to pay for, which was probably upward like easily over a hundred dollars, Like he seems like he gets a stipend

from his parents or that's my that's my guess. That's the only thing that explains it to me, which and I get why, like is also like I'm not totally comfortable with that, Like it all makes sense, but I like that Winston. I think Winston is given a little more depth and like layers to who he is and the way Stella sees him and grows to see him has more layers than most romantic movie couples. Yeah, um, quick note about the female gaze to just going back

to that really quickly. The way that this movie and a lot of movies kind of frame the female gaze or like the idea of the female gaze, which you know, we acknowledge how heteronormative, like the male gaze and the female gaze is anyway her like Stella seeing just like looking at Tay Digs's character, and her eyes are lingering on his arms and his lips, whereas like the male

gaze in most movies is like tits and ass. So even like the like the kind of female counterpart quote unquote of a gazey shot is still like more respectful. It's like, oh, his lips and his like his shoulders, and then it's it's a more intellectualized gaze. Then the reverse it at least involves his face, you know, like

he's not a headless woman of Hollywood. Um, yeah, yeah, I mean it's I like, I I really like how this movie handles female gaze because sometimes it's like when it's kind of a one to one of like, oh you don't like the male gaze, well then just have the opposite, and it's like, well that's really what I asked for, um, And I feel like this movie chose that line pretty well. Where Like it's just it's fucking cinematography.

Like in theory, if you're doing it right, it should be reflective and tell you something about what's going on in the movie, not just like catering to the bassist aspects of your audience. Like, so in that way, I feel like this is successful because we're seeing him through Della's eyes. So yeah, because I have about Whoopi Goldberg and how she they kill her in the movie, I

don't like it. I I don't know. And I was curious about this because I don't want to if this is if this is an aspect that was taken from Terry McMillan's life, I don't want to minimize that in any way. I wasn't able to find any information on whether Delilah's character isn't any way pulled from her experience. So I'll just say that because I would hate to find out that and that's so disrespectful. But if it

is a story choice, I don't like it. It is so I think that that's like one of the lazier things that this movie does is brings in what Whoppi Goldberg to be the best friend and have, like even for the best friend, have more to do than you know. It is normal, right, you get that. But then and it is four shadowed in the movie because when she says on the first trip to Jamaica, like she's kind of just saying vaguely ominous stuff. I'm like, oh, no,

they're gonna She's gonna die, that's why. And and I'm like, it's like sitting next to my boyfriend being like, they're going to kill Whoopie Goldberg to teach Angela Bassett that she needs to live in the moment. And that's literally what happens. And they kill Whoopi Goldberg to teach Angela Bassett she has to be in the moment. Why do that? Don't do that? I like Wippi Goldberg a lot. She's great.

I yes, I love I do. I do appreciate that the movie does dedicate real estate to both uh Stella's relationship with Whoopie Goldberg's character and Stella's relationship to her two sisters. I feel like a lot of romantic movies I'm thinking of like The Notebook, where it's like, do we meet any of Rachel mcgadam's friends or hear them talk? Like you're just told they exist and they're in the background.

Sometimes Yeah, there's like that movie is just like so hyper focused on the on the romance, whereas like we see like and then also like with with Stella's son and like we meet her ex husband that dynamic, which is like that too. I love that scene. It was like her worst fear of, like having to show everyone this thing that she does have some shame around and everyone was flipping cool except Angela, Like everybody, yeah, They're all like, hey, what's up, dude. Yeah, even her ex

husband is cool with it. Her ex husband and Tay Diggs have that little seed together at that Diggs kind of pushes back and it's like, why are you giving me advice? Doesn't seem like it worked out too well for you? Like that was great, very sweet. I really loved that. Okay, a couple things I just want to say real fast. Um, just Taye Diggs and his Jamaican accent inconsistent, inconsistent, Yes, some and some scenes. I'm like, that sounds really authentic. I think he did a good

job there. I mean, I'm by no means next Jamaican accent, but it was also inconsistent enough that I was like, that sounded very Irish then not Jamaican. Um, so I'm not sure that he's doing a good job all the time. It seems to be. I I looked up some it seems to be a pretty popular opinion that the accent is U is perhaps good. God, I think that you know, you can be a great actor and probably just maybe not do an accent in a role. See keianu Reeves,

see Brad Pitt. There's a lot of actors that we love who just have never done an accent successfully well, but then they're there. Are actors like a friend of the show, are King Alfred Molina who masters all the accent. He does every noone even knows he's British. He's British, He's British. Rash what yeah, that makes him that? I get it now, Jamie. I was questioning this for a long time. Now that you tell me that is British, I'm into it. It's a game changer, it really um.

I like that white people are cast in this movie the way that black people are cast in most mainstream Hollywood movies, and that they are barely there. They're mostly in the background. They have very few lines of dialogue. I think Victor Garber is the only white person who says anything which name and lines of dialogue um isaac visibility. Also, Victor Garber is not credited in the credits of this movie, he's not. And then I checked on Wikipedia and it

says Victor Garber uncredited. I'm like, damn, the year after Titanic uncredited this business. I think it's worth just briefly noting that they're okay. So they're two characters named Jack and Buddy, who um Delilah Whippi. Goldberg's character is like trying to hook her and Stella up with, and they their whole thing is like, look how unappealing they are.

But the things that are done to make them seem unappealing is that one of them has a stutter and the other one is kind of chubby, So just some needless body and speech impediment shaming. So, you know, not great, but yeah, for a movie coming out in night, there weren't that. I mean, that was kind of the only like really sort of like reductive thing that I noticed. I like, the Buddy had enough confidence to take all of his clothes off at that pajama party, Like I

was honestly scandals. I was like, if I was invited to a party and then everyone's tips came out, I would be furious that I was not warned that this was a tip they should have been a written that I might. Yeah, you have to tell me. I have to get the tips ready if I'm supposed to just throw them out there, you know. So that I was like, Ow, he's you know what, he loves himself and he loves his body, and I like that that to being show. Yeah that's true. Um Any does anyone have anything else

they want to say about the movie? Let's see. Yeah, Justice for the Lilah. I like that we knew what just going off of your common and about how we like, not only do we know Stella support system, we also know at least a little bit about them. Um and the movie in ways that it's just like every movie could do this. We see what people all burg at her job and you're like, I know something about her. Wow.

Her job is to stuff Calvin Klein mannequins who are wearing underwear, make them seem like they have bigger dicks. She's a high paid mannequins stylist. Baby, and I that's a fun, rich person job in a movie. Love it? Um Oh. This movie was directed by I wanted to bring up some behind the scenes stuff. This movie was

directed by a black director, Kevin Rodney Sullivan. Who I had a lot of fun learning about because he's had kind of like a fun career where he started as a child actor and then he grew into a writer director. He has mostly been directing TV, but like he's directed every big TV show. He directed Thirty Rock episodes, he directed Modern Family episodes. He's directed and c I. Yes, he's directed How to Get Away with Murder, He's directed Riverdale. He's like a big shot TV director now and and

directed this movie. So he's great. Another person I had a lot of fun learning about was the editor of this movie, a black editor named George Bowers, who I recommend you you just kind of dig into his life because he was also a filmmaker and he sounds like he was a really cool experimental filmmaker as well. Um, so, there is not a ton of women behind the scenes of this movie. Aside from Terry McMillan getting the co

writing credit. There's a female produced, sir. There's a couple of female producers, if I remember correctly, there's a few. I just I don't know. I was honestly like, I wish that a black woman had been the director of this That said Kevin Rodney Sullivan seems really cool. And there's I saw. All I'm looking at is I'm seeing one producer credit and it's a lady named deb Brush Wendler. Yes. Um, and then I'm seeing a couple. Um. Terry McMillan was

also an executive producer, as was Jennifer Ogdenden. Um, don't know how to say it. Um So a couple of executive producers are women's good? Yeah? Um so yeah, I think just taking a look at the behind the scenes stuff is good. This movie was reviewed in a very pointed way because there were simply very few, uh black reviewers and female reviewers that we're working at this time. So it's just kind of the classic like this movie isn't about me. I don't get it. No stars kind

of thing. Not no stars, but like it's just very passive aggressive reviews. Um, I don't know. Yeah, I think that's all I got. I really like this movie. My favorite exchange is when Stella and Winston first meat and he's just as good morning, and she replies with are you a rapper? Like that's the first thing she says. You're like, I'm trying to get from a to be here, but I just can't like okay, I mean maybe she's like, okay, a subcategory someone that would be eating at a resort alone. Yeah,

is that? I'm like, what, Like, he doesn't necessarily I mean, what does a rapper look like? But he doesn't necessarily look like a rapper. No, he's just eating at a resort alone. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. But that's a weird as I would be like, cool, so you don't want me to bother you, okay, but like that would be the end of the Wow, that's a weird ass thing for you to say. Okay, But she

doesn't even say like hello or good morning back. She just he was like, good morning, are you a rapper? Like it's just like uh no, um I will I I deeply love and this is something. It's something so nineties and like embedded in my heart. A sex scene where there are gauzy white curtains fluttering in the wind.

I think it's so important. I love it so much, where they payan to them and they're just gently moving and like only one is because that's where the fan that the designer is like pointed at the Yeah, oh it's I don't even know if these ones were esteemed. Sometimes you can still see the wrinkles from where they took it out of the packaging. But man, the gauze perfect very really adds a layer of sexy to the to the scene Caitlyn, I just I just want that

she has such good sex that she cries. That made me laugh so much. I just like, why is she crying? I don't understand human emotion? Okay um. I guess my final thought would be that this feels pretty tropy for like any kind of romantic movie. But at the beginning of the movie, Stella is like, I don't care about meeting a man. I don't need a man. Uh, this is actually an exchange I really like where she and her sisters are getting pedicures or they're they're at a spa.

They're talking and then like they annoy her, so Stella says, don't talk to me for the next two hours five seconds pass and then Angela, her sister, is like, you need a husband and your son needs a father. He's like, whoa, and then Stella says. Stella says, had one got rid of him? So glad I did. And then she's like, also, like, my son has a father. His name is Walter if

you remember him, you know him? Yeah, And then and then she's like, you know, just because Kennedy, which is an Angela's husband, just because Kennedy produces, directs and stars and all three acts of your drama, don't fool yourself. Every woman doesn't need that kind of guidance. So she's basically saying like, I don't need a man, and that's great, but that is also like rom calm code for she's going to end up with a man by the end without question. Well, yeah, I guess it's I guess we

haven't brother. Yeah, there's definitely I think because of the time in the genre, there's definitely echoes of like IROLLI like nineties girl power, where it's like I don't need a man, I just need a man, Like you're just like, ok, I just haven't met Tay Digs yet and looked at his arms. And suddenly as soon as that happened and I find out he's not a rapper, then I also

when the movie ended, I was just like that. I was like, what a confusing day for Quincy her Son the because he has just been told like say goodbye, You're never going to see this man again and then guess what, he's your stepfather and he lives with us. Good night, Like oh my gosh, yeah, I wouldn't trust adults after that messy I know. Yeah, that's like all in the span of like however long it takes her to drive to and from the airport, they didn't act.

Remember how he just left to move back to Jamaica. Well he's back and we're getting married. Yeah, and then she would be like, oh, you misunderstood, like she could just like gaslight him into being a no, no, no, you misunderstood. He is actually your stepfather. Now Quincy has to get his groove back in like the sixth grade or however, I do love that as a movie in the way that they did like a fuller house and a girl's world, just like how with like the kid

gets his groove back. Yeah, he's such a sweet character. He is. And he makes her breakfast. So we see a young boy cook a young nurturing son. Yeah, and he's like, I want to do something and he tells him. He's like he's like, mom, I just want you to

have fun while I'm gone, and like he really did. Oh. I just love their relationship and I like that you do get to see uh, and that like a a mother, like is a character who is like romantically viable because like I think a lot of movies will be like, oh, you have a kid, well then see uh yeah, I mean forty year old woman being romantically virable, viable, a mother being romantically violent. Like, there's so many I don't know. I'm just going to defend this movie to the end

of time. Scene between them at the airport at the beginning made me, Karry, I loved it where he's just like, now, Mom, I want you to take care of yourself and I care about you and you're the best mom ever. And she's like, I'm going to go to Jamaica. You're like, all right, I guess I'm gonna go and get dicked by Tay Digs. That's what It's what my that's what my son was on. He's also very cool with their relationship.

Um okay, Well, does the movie pass the Bechdel test? Definitely, and it's thanks to like the writing being careful to include her sisters and Delilah. It does pass the duvern A test, obviously far more handily than most movies. Movie. Yeah, shall shall we rate it on our nipple scale, Yes, let's shall zero to five nipples, based on its representation

of women, and also just an overall examination of intersectional feminism. Um, I would give this film contextualizing it knowing that it is like a romantic movie, and based on that it is going to be centered around a romantic relationship and in this case it's a hetero romantic relationship ship. Knowing all of that, I think I would give it a three and a half or a four. Like just the fact that you have you see representation of an older

woman being like worshiped and respected by this far younger man. Again, it's something that society was not deeming as acceptable. It's something that other characters were not deeming as acceptable. But Sell was just like, fuck it, I'm going to get my groove back. Okay, this and then this is how And I didn't even know that I didn't have my groove, but I'm going to get it back. And and it's

Winston Shakespeare is gonna give it to me. Um, And so that and just yeah, like the the exploration of her relationships with her sisters and her friend Delilah and her son and different things to to characterize her the fact that maybe we could have gotten a better understanding of why they're in love with each other and like what they're compatible about. But again, that's I mean, that's

like we said, it's pretty standard for the genre. We we don't know why these people are ever in love except that they are close to each other and they're both conventionally attractive. But it's like, do we ever really know, like why j Lo and Matthew McConaughey were in love. No, they were just hot and around each other. It's implicit,

it's it's inherent to the genre. It's just hot and around or my least favorite twizt I knew you and I was a child, therefore I have to marry you on yes, yes, yes, so yeah, Sorry, I was on my nipple. Rating. Um, I'll give it, you know what I'll give it. I think I'll do like a A three and a half or four. I don't know what's everyone else gonna do. I need other people's influence here. I'm gonna do probably. I will fully admit this is partially just I'm rating with my emotions, but I want

to give it a four. I just feel like this for the reasons we've discussed this movie doesn't do everything right, but there's so much about this movie that is First of all, I mean, if we're talking about subversions in the drama or to the genre, this story is pretty engaging and like makes sense more often than not, which

is not something you usually get. I also, oh, something we didn't talk about is like this kind of one of the big inciting incidents in in this movie is that Stella wants to like she's not embarrassed or like ashamed of self care and like practicing self care, and that I mean, that's a whole the whole practice of self care can get kind of insidious and capitalism steeped.

We won't go there, but on the surface level, I think it is really nice that the first time we see Stella not at work, she is, you know, like having a relaxing day her sisters, and this whole trip with Wapie Goldberg is self care and like readdefining herself and just seeing women, especially not young women and especially a black woman like prioritizing herself and being like, you know what, I like even though and I thought it was kind of a cool detail that she says she

wants to do it and then she's like, no, I don't want to, and then her friend is like, no, we're gonna go. Like that felt really cool. Um, you just don't see movies like that very much, where it's like a woman who's very for the most part like without shame, being like I deserve this, like I'm going to take care of myself, and you know, the internalized shame and back and forth that comes with that is

a very real thing. And I like that it's addressed, but at its heart, like this is a story of like self care and prioritizing yourself and recognizing that you can have responsibilities in life and not totally lose sight of who you are. And I don't get your girl, yes, ge'ts your good. That's where the word groove comes into play.

And I just I found that to be very soothing and wonderful and nice to see in a movie for all of the goofy problems that we um discussed, so kind of for that alone, it's going to get for for me. And and you just don't have many black romance movies. And I like Terry McMillan, I like that this is based on a true story, even though it ends not like the movie, and yeah, I really like this movie. So I want to give two nipples to Stella, one nipple to Delilah r I p and I'll give

one nipple to what was the niece's name. The niece I was like, why is she here? Also tells whose kid was that I think it's I think it's Regina King's daughter. I was. I just it wasn't clear to me which sister's kid that one. Yeah, that makes sense. That's a legitimate question that I never thought about. And she doesn't come back, but I'm like, there she is

because Regina King. Sorry, there's a jackhammer happening behind me. Um. Regina King refers to like waiting on what I think is a child support check from like her ex partner, and her name is Chantelle, if I'm not mistaken, Chante. I think it's Yeah, I think she is Regina King's daughter. Like one line that she gets, I thought she was very engaging and funny for the one scene that she is in. So she gets my fourth nipple. Good for her. She said, Okay, it's really funny because it's the two

kids talking in the pool. Quincy is like, oh yeah, like Winston's a lot younger than my mom, and and Shantell is like, well, how young And he's like not quite thirty, which is like a decade off of how old he actually is. But then Shantell says, oh, that's not young, because thirty is not young. Everybody like, um, so yeah, that was very funny. Um okay, so yeah, I'll give it four nipples as well. Most of my gripes with the movie are more like screenwriting based, you know,

like it could have been a half hour shorter. You know, there was some weird tonal shifts that I couldn't quite make sense of. Um that I love Ta Diggs is accent. I give one of my nipples to him trying to do to make an accent. I'll give to to Stella, and I'll give one to Regina King. I am going to give it four nipples. One to the scene in the shower where Ta Diggs but is very prominent. Angela

gets to be dressed the whole time. Um, so I'm going to give one nipple to that scene in particular, One to Regina King because she deserves everything in the world. One to will Be Goldberg because she's very funny in this way. That's like, hell, yeah, I hope that that's the type of friend relationships I continue to have well until my third forties. And hope. I mean, I don't want to die and I don't want my friends to do. But you get it. I want a good relationship with

my friends. That is what that nipples for. And I'm going to say the fourth nipple two. Every time they yell as a group at Angela, the sister who's a jerk, I loved it. I enjoyed it so much. When they would be like shut up, Angela and everyone's like, yeah, you should. We don't like you. It's like, yes, you suck and your whole family knows it. Yeah. Stilla goes over to her house to be like, you disrespected my boyfriend yesterday and I need you to apologize, and then

she does. She's like, I didn't mean to be rude, Like I'm just looking out for you. Aren't you worried about this? I liked that you get resolution there. Yeah, and so it's like, of course I'm worried about this, but like, you just need to be supportive. I'll be the worrior here. So yeah, I did. I like that little arc Canice thank you so much for being here for being our again first ever fourth time guest listeners.

Check out our Back to the Future episode on the Matreon Oreo Royal episode on the main feed, as well as an episode that is what did we name it? It's like um something something in a discussion with Cannie Mobley. Anyway, she'll be back for her jacket. You'll be back for your jacket, I do. I I mean, if you guys happen to have a velvet smoking jacket, I would never turn it down, just so you know we you'll see it, You'll get it. Um where can people follow you online?

What would you like to plug? So you can follow me online on all of the platforms at Kennie Mobley. I just even made a TikTok because they said that I had to. And it has no videos because I don't know how to use that app. So either look out. I will one day have one. Uh, it's gonna be great. And I have my podcast which is called Love about Town. Caitlin, you've been on it, Jamie, you were on Person about Town.

But we gotta get bad for Love about Town. I'm now co host of Complexit Hi complex Ifi on Vice. So check out all that stuff and you know, just you know, keep your eyes peeled. I'm around, you're doing stuff. Look behind you? Yeah right now? No, okay, Oh well, thanks again so much for being here. We always love having you. Um. You can follow us on social media

at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our patreon ak Matreon and check out that Back to the Future episode with Kinnis, and then you can do that by going to patreon dot com slash becktel Cast. It's only five dollars a month and it gives you two bonos episodes plus access to the entire back catalog. And again sorry, if you can hear the jackhammer behind me, you can get our merch on t public dot com slash v

Bechdel Casket all your favorite stuff. We also have masks in the store now, so if you are looking for a new mask to add to your dystopia collection, we have those as well. Um yeah, well, everyone, let's go and get our grooves back. What do you say? I lost mine? Gotta go out. I lost mine. I need to get my groove back. But too bad we can't travel where were we supposed to do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I want to go to Jamaica. Alright, bye bye bye