Her with Jesse David Fox

you kind of hear that? I just like more or less deep throated a Baby Bell. I can hear it in my voice? You can, I don't especially hear anything, but I'm also full of dairy. I just ate a Klondike bar, so not Wow. Now we have to be care because now we're on now we're on a network, and that wasn't a paid advertisement. We just we just appreciate those dairy products. But if Klondike Bar and Baby Bell do want to give us money, we will take it. I just had to wash down that Baby Bell with

a gulp of diet coke. I feel I just felt so insecure about my cheese voice. But I do think listeners hop into my mentions. Tell me, have you ever had cheese voice? Have you? I'm daring to start a dialogue today, Well, represent hey, Caitlin. Even though we were talking about products. That conversation did pass the Bechdel test. I would say it did. OK. Well, what is the Bectel test. Well, it's just a test that you apply to media and it requires that the movie. Let's say

you're watching the movie cheese breath. Let's chee breath, cheating cheese voice. Okay, don't get close to my mouth though probably cheese breath also, sure, So whatever movie you're watching, Uh, the Becktel test requires that it has at least two female identifying characters with names who speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man. You'd think it would be easy, and we've got an interesting one today.

I'm I'm excited to talk about this movie. It's one of those ones where I was ambivalent about it when it came out, and I have a lot more thoughts and questions about it now. Forty five minutes of this movie is what Keen Phoenix sauntering around. However, that describes a lot of Fucken Phoenix movies and so that doesn't even really narrow it down. He's literally in a movie called Walk the Line, where I imagine he's just walking the line. That's what that movie is about. It's a

very famous movie about walking in the straight line. In this movie, we have Amy Adams. It's not doubt so already that is points against it. We're talking about the movie Her, and here to join us in that conversation is our wonderful guest. He's the senior editor at Vulture and he's the host of Good One podcast, currently in its third season. Jesse David Fox. Hi, thanks for being here. Let's talk about or relationship to the movie Her. When

did you first see What's your relationship? I forgot this. I was watching it. I was like, oh, I watched it on a screener on a date. All I remember is she would sigh when interesting things happened. Her would her this, this bodied woman would be like your date, okay. And I appreciate that she liked movies. So then I think I watched it again immediately afterwards to get it. And then I remember liking it so much. I remember

liking how it looked. I illegally downloaded this score. Um, I tried to figure out ways to get the clothes for free to write stories about, like, oh, I try to wear those pants for And that's where it stayed frozen in my brain of like, that's a movie I really liked and thought about a lot for a time and then didn't reinvestigate until last night. And now I feel very confused about it. I see, wow, I'm so excited to talk about this. Then, yeah, this is a

tricky one. This is one of those movies I think that occupies that. Like, my little brother loved this movie when it came out because he was uh teenage boy who I think identified strongly with Theodore. I think this is a case for a lot of specifically men who saw this movie there they're like, you know what, I don't fuck enough. And the thing with this movie, I think that there are a lot of good things about this movie. I think that there's a lot of backwards

things about this movie. There's a lot, definitely a lot to talk about. No matter what way you spend it. This movie is very boring. Unfortunately, there's a lot of stuff to discuss. However, it is one of the most boring movies of all time. It's a Jones joint as we like to say here and kidding, we don't um,

but it's a Spike Jones written directed. Yes, it's weird because I I'm interested in when you think about this, I do think that Spike Jones is well aware that his protagonist is deeply flawed and is essentially wrong in most of the choices he makes. However, I don't think

that that is clearly communicated enough in the movie. And that's why there's going to be this horde of guys who feel they don't fuck enough that will love this movie because there's not a lot of accountability, and there's not a lot of blowback, and there's not a lot of you know, it's like, it's Theodore. He's gonna be fine, He's gonna coast through life because of who he is. I don't know. I don't need to see what keen Phoenix saunter around. I simply don't. Well, when did you

first see the movie? I thought when he came out, you know, when I was in college at the time, I just remember being like, well, that was fucking boring. And now I think, well, that was fucking boring, and I don't think that, and I think it gets a lot most things wrong. Yeah, there was like a pretty big response to this movie, as you said, like a lot of people really, especially I feel like in the

world imagine we all run in. This was like an adventurous size movie for people who live in cool neighborhoods in large cities, and then like not a movie anyone who care about though. I just relearned that it won an Oscar for what category? Guess was it? Screenplay? Which is the thing the least because thinking about is like, the worst thing about this movie is its screenplay. It's I mean, I don't know, it's we could we could spar all day about what the worst part of this movie.

There's a lot of stuff going on. I I wish that this movie was written by someone who had a better understanding of tech than Spike Jones seems to. Here's a big issue I have with this movie that is completely separated from what we talked about, but just feels worth mentioning. Okay, people are falling in love with AI and computers. Fine, I get it, that's what the movie

is about. Why is it never at any point brought up that Samantha is absolutely funneling all of keen Phoenix's thoughts and feelings and giving them to Mark Zuckerberg so he has better targeted ads. It's never brought up like that. There's like a massive surveillance aspect to like, you know, the AI is. It's not like they work for no one, you know, like they were created by a company and all the data that they get is going back to

that company. The world Spike Drones creates freaks me out a little bit because it's just like, you know, there's no there's no element of a tech company even mentioned in this movie. It's just AI exists and it's here to see the ads for it. And he sees the ad and he's like, oh I might like that, and

that's the extent of it. I'll subscribe to it. And it's it's like there's always no where's your where your weird little funck feelings like, and they're being you know, I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do think that that is such a weird thing to overlook. However, when I saw this movie in that didn't occur to me at all. But you weren't a hacker yet. Hacker Jamie had not been born yet. I was waiting for someone to bring up that I am one of the

world's foremost hackers. People call me Little Julian and I don't stop them. I feel like I remember hearing the movie was a lot of more movie. The first cut was like as first cuts are like hours and hours long, and he didn't know what to do and he's gonna like stop making the movie. And then like he gave Steven Soderberg the movie for a weekend and Steven Soderberg like made it's like jerk off to this movie, seem Soderberg.

I think it was super into it. And then seems Soderberg like gave him a like hour long cut and it's like this isn't the movie, but like this is what the movie could be. Steven Soderberg like, here's all the content of the movie without Jakin Phoenix pacing around Los Angeles. It's an hour long. Or his face, there's just a lot of it's just like his face or his full body. But I will say this, my favorite

parts were him pacing around. I feel like because you see his red coat, which I still who love his wardrobe. I looked up where to get that red coat, and it's now not irrelevant search anymore. And it's the score, which I love. The score is beautiful. Yeah, yeah, So maybe I think there was more of a like this is shadier elements and they're like, let's just keep it to what it is, which is a love story. I guess I love my computer. Yeah, I well, I don't

even when did you see this movie? I thought shortly after it came out, and I didn't especially I wasn't attached to it really in any way. I thought like the world building was interesting. I thought that it begins to explore some interesting themes, but I wasn't emotionally connected

to it for the most part, for different reasons. If if memory serves, this seems like a movie that men tended to get more attached to and women's As a man, is this the time where I should say, maybe I remember I liking a lot as a man, and a female friend also liking a lot as a person who

was not a man. But I definitely can see why men would because this is this is one of the questions I wanted to ask you, because watching this movie with the frame that I was going to talk about this show, I'm like, this movie is bad to watch a movie on a thing that is not one of his strength and focusing on it, and I feel like it must make movie watching really hard. But this was

the question. I watched this movie from the lens of this representation of women, and as a result, I feel like I was more aware of its flaws than when I just watched it. And I can't tell if that is because I'm still just me if that's how women see movies when it's just like this movie was assuming that you care about this guy because he's sad and he's a god, and five years ago that was enough, and it seems like for you guys, it was not enough. But do you feel like there's other movies that you

feel like this is particularly bad at it? I would say no. We've covered movies on this podcast that have done a much worse job. And are you saying that I'm saying that cinematic masterpiece Glie might have done not so great at a job. And I when I first saw it and first decided that I didn't, I don't hate this movie, but I don't, like I said, I

just have no attachment to it. And it wasn't I wasn't watching it through the Bechtel cast lens at the time, and I find even today, after having done this podcast for a year and a half, I still have to deliberately like put my Bechtel goggles on. We we even like talk about that when we're texting. Of like I saw ex Monkina for the first time last weekend, and I was like, I liked it. I wasn't watching it with Becktel goggles, but I you know, first glance, I

liked it. That's there are certain movies that, like it are so shitty that you can't not watch it with Bechdel goggles just because it's like blatant, like Transformers is a glaring and like you can't you can't miss it. But I don't. I don't think that, you know, like every woman on the face of the earth is watching

movies with this hyper specific viewpoint. But I've been quicker to notice stuff without my Backtel goggles on because we've done this so many times of like, oh, there's a little trope that is kind of like a red flag for like probably this isn't a good sign, yeah say, I'm like yeah. But also like we've just been so conditioned to view media a certain way and because so much of media has just been a certain way that we're like, we've been conditioned to accept that that's what

movies are. That I've had to retrain myself to like watch movies from a more critical eye, especially as it pertains to like the treatment of women, the treatment of people of color, at the treatment of queer characters, like so many different things, And I'm just like, the bottom line is it. I still have to put in a lot of work to like critically analyze the entertainment that I consume. Yeah, does that answer your question? That's one of the two questions I told him. I had no

one ever asked us questions. This is exciting get journalists. Yeah, yeah, exactly should I do? The recap? Recap? Recap recap? So her is about a character named Theodore Twombly Twombly. I know a Twambly. Oh yeah, yeah, Tyler Twombly. Shout out Tyler Twombly. She was my employee anyways. Anyway, So Theodore played by Walking Phoenix. This is a kind of distant future, near future society. The Turing test has been passed in this future, yes, and he works at a website called

Beautiful Handwritten Letters Dot com. I'm going to stop you right there. I here's a trope that I find stupid of, Like, first of all, that's a business that we'll never that's it's like, what is the quickest shorthand way to say he's a sensy little boy like like and they do the same. They do a very very similar thing in Five Days of Summer with Joseph Gordon Levit's character where they're like, he works at greeting card company, he a little sensitive, and then they lay it on pick with

Theodore Twa. He's like, I think boys should cry, I think bus should cry. And I write handwritten letters and I I'm just like funk Off, I want the brown met a window. Anyways, Sorry, I just went to Beautiful Handwritten Letters dot com and it redirects you to Warner Brothers dot com. Backslash her if anyone's curious, sucks done

something right and just redirects um. So he works at this place and he's a sense that he's a writer, and he's also going through a divorce and he's melancholy, and he plays the baffling to see a movie that I know I liked have a part where he goes play melancholy song. First five minutes he's like, he does play melancholy song, and he goes playing another melank like

shot up, what is wrong? It is crazy that has that, And then there's other parts of the movie that aren't you think that should be If the movie is gonna be that, it should be stupid all the way through. Right, Yeah, that was like a moment of humor that I was like, Oh, this is gonna be kind of a common and then it's not. Really it's Theodore Twombly and by extension kind

of Spike Jones. It just seemed blissfully unaware of how goofy some of his some of the things he's sad about is because he has a job that he's good at that people just can't stop complimenting him on how good at his job he is. He has this massive apartment with these huge glass windows where he masturbates every night, and it's and he's like, play melancholy song, and so I I you can miss me with empathy for this character, he's fought, like I get you know, he's going through

a divorce that is explored. That makes sense, but like in two thousand thirteen, this is still a very sympathetic character, like this guy with a great job and a phone that he has sex with. Yeah, so this is a world where like technology is a little bit more advanced than it is for us right now, where you can like be like, hey, check my emails and then a voice will come in book all right, here's your email from best Buy and blah blah blah and connected. Yeah,

it's kind of like Serrie almost time the cute. So he sees an ad for another operating system that involves artificial intelligence, and he's like, wow, this like sounds like something that I could be into because I'm lonely and I'm ignoring emails from friends and I am pregnant Ladies on the Train, which honestly, I think makes m a feminist icon, but that's just me. So he purchases this

OS and starts communicating with it. Her name is Samantha, voiced by Scarlette Johansson, and it starts out where they're just like kind of getting to know each other and she's sort of just going about doing his you know, daily administrative type of stuff, and then they talk more and then they start to develop more of a friendship, more of a connection. Meanwhile, he is trying to date and he has a friend named Amy played by Amy Adams, and she's encouraging him to go out and live life.

So he goes on a date and it doesn't go well, so instead he comes home and he's like kind of complaining to Samantha about it. And this is the initiation of their sexual relationship um where they have they have sex so to speak. Now they're sort of in a relationship and they start to fall in love and I don't even remember what happens after that. There's a sequence where he gets divorced from his wife. There's a sequence where his wife his wife. Sorry, I'm never not gonna

shout to the rock episode. His wife is a life um played by Rooney Mara. Yes, Joaquin's real life boopiece. I believe so at the time, are currently currently they had negative chemistry in the state. Listen that Joaquin, he's a contrarian where we zig Key's eggs. Uh. There's a scene where Samantha decides that she wants to try to have sex with him with a real body, using Angelo from Mr Robot, who will get to how the tertiary female characters behave in this movie because it rarely makes sense.

He goes on a date with Olivia Wilde and it's like, I didn't find her that hot. You're just like, Okay, I think that those are all of the main right, Yeah,

so those are kind of the main story beats. And as all this is happening, Samantha is sort of growing intellectually and emotionally and she's evolving, and she makes AI friends, she makes a friends, and she and Theodore talking about their relationship and their feelings and you know, they have different sort of complications, but they're growing together sort of because Theodore is kind of in a state of arrested

development in terms of his emotional growth. And it gets to the point where she's starting to realize this and she's sort of evolving past him. And then, which granted is not very hard. I think we have all accomplished that. Yeah, he learns that she is also in love with over six hundred other people and os is and this makes

him jealous. And then as there's sort of maybe trying to work past this, the other os is have decided to move on to a different plane of existence, and then he realizes, maybe I should connect with my list robot uprising I've ever heard in my entire life exactly. So then he's like, hey, Amy, do you want to go on the roof with me and connect face to face? Like maybe I should have been doing all along? Question

mark the end, Like, UM, here's my question. Sometimes, Um, with technology, do you feel like maybe we're like more alone than we ever were before? Jamie, I think that's such an interesting question that I've never heard posed before. Really given me something to think about. Mr Jones really helped me figure that out with this awesome movie. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll be back.

I think this movie does attempt to explore some interesting themes about human connection in our relationship with technology, different things like that. I don't necessarily think it draws any conclusions that are that poignant what seems to suggest, because at no points, though it implies there's maybe a disconnection because of the technology, ultimately it seems like it's a totally cool world and everyone's fine with it. And then the only problem is that maybe at some point the

technology would not want to be with us. But that is not really like a that's not like the world that we're living, and we're like it's good. But any moment, Facebook will decide not to be a company. Right, I'm but the Facebook be like, sorry, we as a website

decided not to exist. I kind of liked there, And this is mainly expressed through Amy's character that there is this element of like, oh yeah, people are starting to like date osis and that's cool and that's interesting and I'm like open to that and you're like, oh this, there's like that undertone. I thought was like one of the more interesting choices that the movie makes, because I think it would be a really easy, boring story choice for the whole world behave like Rudy Mara and be

like you're in love with your computer. That's growth, that's funked up, blah blah blah, and it's like in us versus them kind of thing. But I do think it's cool that it's like this movie takes place at a time that will never happen where it's like we fun computers, but also we have porn stashes, like confusing, but like takes place where it seems like dating and AI is just becoming slightly mainstream and like sort of acceptable, and

it's like on its way but not quite there. It's which which is like interesting and I wish was explored more than it is. I'm wondering if when people see this, like fifty years from now, when everyone has their own robot, people will be like, Wow, the movie Her was so progressive for its time because it really realized this world. I hope not I really I I man, I'm like really interested in this stuff too. And and it bothers as a hacker has a patron of the zeros and

the ones. Uh No, I do think it is like kind of I tweeted that we were doing this episode today and a lot of feedback I was getting was like, oh, that movie is so frustrating because it takes this futurist perspective but only tells the story of a hetero relationship and only tells the story of a male's needs being met in a lot of ways, which is true and is true of a lot of these types of movies,

which we'll get into. But the extension of that problem is that most AI and most like technology in general is developed by men like Theodore Twombly, where you know, AI in a way is sort of created to service mails and and reinforced gender stereotypes. In a lot of ways. Um So Unfortunately, although this movie does not examine it even a little bit, that is kind of true to how this technology is being developed, which sucks. Fortunately, I'm going to hack it and everything. I'm pro I think

AI is really cool. I just like I wish that it was being developed by a more diverse group of people so it will service a diverse population for sure. The part that I remember talking about that I liked about the movie is how they all everyone was really accepting of it. That was like me thinking this was a good movie. That was the thing that I used to sound smart about how it was a good movie. Like Chris Pratt's character, which is so funny that Chris

Pratt this is work exactly where his career was. That he's like she's an os and literally like nothing and they go on a date. Yeah, He's just like cool, do you want to do something fun? And they talked about his girlfriend feet. This is what this is, Chris Pratt, Kylie, you were saying this earlier. This is Chris Pratt as

he is in the middle of becoming hot. He's like not ring there, but it's like this is his right he stage, he's getting there the final form has not been reached, but he's you can see you can see some things at work anyways, So I think this movie does have some things going for it in the sense that it's a movie about a guy for who the most part, even though he is not fully emotionally developed.

But then again, who out there is. It's a movie about a guy who is like sensitive, fairly emotionally intelligent. He's not some like aggro dude who's out there to like try to prove his masculinity the whole time, and which is cool because that is what a lot of movies are about, necessarily in this genre. But if it's a movie starring a man, he's usually like I would never cry and I'm a man right his wife right.

So and I think Jamie, as you said, that's maybe one of the reasons that like, your brother may be connected to it, and it's was fond of it and stuff like that, So I which I think is great

that there's characters that sensitive men can connect with. It might it might have been this window where that was revolutionary enough that felt really good to be represented on screen, and then now five years later that is also tires them and not enough, but it's like, once you have three sensitive men on screen, you're like, all right, cool,

we can move on to right. And then it's like the I think that that the implication of the script taking such great links to be like key sensitive excuses a lot of toxic behaviors that go largely unexamined by the movie itself. Anyways, I'm perfect, Yes, we are all beacons of emotional intelligence here and we have there's no

more work to be done. So some of the things the movie I think doesn't handle as well is that this is among several, like a whole sub genre of movies and stories where a man either creates and or falls in love with, or has some sort of relationship with a female presenting robot android AI being. Other examples are like, ex mocking a blade Runner blade Runner in Weird Science, The Stepford Wives. Um, there's a vague reference to a human man in female droid relationship in Solo,

a Star Wars story. There's like fembots in Austin Powers. There's an al Pacino movie that I wasn't totally familiar with called Simone that I watched a trailer for that was what, uh all I remembers he created this woman that she became famous. Yeah, she's like an actress in a bunch of movies I kind of want to see that does not look very good. Um. And then there's things like you know, Bionic Woman, West World. There's an episode of Rick and Morty where this happens. There's some

episodes of Future Rama where this happened. So there's like this whole sort of sub genre of like men being involved with or interacting with in some way female presenting non human thing. Also like Lars and the Real Girl is like sort of like an example of that too. And and these female presenting technologies are I think, in every single one of those examples programmed by men or or mostly men, right, and often to serve them in

some way, either often sexually. I mean I haven't necessarily watched every single one of these that I listed, but it's my understanding that they are like their homework or whatever. But what about Smart House guys, Well, that is the part that is weird that I don't think I realized is that she at least the first act whatever, she's just as assistant or whatever, and then they fall in love and then it's very unclear what she then does after that, because like like when she towards the end

is like distant. How does he check his email? You know, like there's does he just have to go back to? Like that, It justifies why I'm so annoyed. I would think I would be on the phone with customer service like okay, listen. I totally like our relationship is our relationship, But I do feel like I shouldn't have to pay three a month if she doesn't want to talk to me.

It's kind of I didn't even think of that. Uh. It's also worth mentioning that most of so most of the AI we interact with now, like Alexa Sirie, there's a new one that whose name escapes Meta Quartana. Yes, all are female presenting. All the people have been like Kurtana is genderless but sounds female presenting. And the reason that is is because when tech companies test them, I guess the testing returns that people are most comfortable asking

women for services. And there's a million if you can imagine, I can't. This seems to be something that exists in a void and there's no reason, but I think Syria, you can change the voice to a male voice. You can't with Alexa. There's just one option. However, if you remember the robot Watson, do you remember Watson? What I read about Watson. Watson was like a robot who was on Jeopardy, that like one Jeopardy, and that technology was like used in cancer labs and used with doctors and

stuff like that. That is a male presenting robot voice and a male voice was deliberately chosen for that because people trust men in positions of leadership. So women are service spots. Men are leader bots basically, and it's it's the sort of thing that again, this movie could point that out at literally anytime. It's reference that there are male os is in this world, but we don't hear them ever, or the only one we hear is Alan Watson.

Watson brought back from the dead, but he doesn't service anyone. He's just the other has created him. He's a leader bot literally, So that's like another missed opportunity in the tech world of like, well, the only way to like change that is to have a service bot who is male, or have a cancer solving bot who is female presenting. But of course, because the tech world's run by men, that will not happen, and there will be YouTube videos of people screaming at Seri until we die. Um. Hey theory,

hey theory series that right now? The thing is I empowered by Seri to go other places, and I've dropped my phone. She's a strong independent woman. She's just can't. I've dropped my phone too many times and she cannot listen to me anymore. One I think is interesting about this movie, I mean maybe not interested. Basically, they do as he's like setting up his new OS, it gives

him the option to choose a male or female voice. Right, he does choose a female voice, but it makes me one or had he chosen a male voice, would he have fallen in love with it the same way or would he have established like the same type of connection with it. I don't know if it's all speculation, but um, I don't know. I thought it was interesting to think about. But yeah, like all of these digital assistants, except like in the UK, I think series voiced by a man

or Oh maybe I didn't even think about that. Shout out if we have any butler listening to the cast, Well, it is like a male default voice. I think so in the UK, in most countries, and yeah, the ones that we're familiar with, like in the US with between Siri and Alexa and Cortana all have you know, these female voices, And yeah, it's basically because historically women have been secretaries to male bosses and we as a society

or like, well, you know, and I want to be able. Yeah, I want to be able to like kind of boss around a woman and have her do all the tasks that I feel are beneath me. And studies revealed that people are more and this is going to shock you. People are more comfortable yelling at women as well. They're more comfortable being like funk off Sirie, tell me where McDonald's is, which I've probably no i'd see. I just google maps it. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I've used

series since this movie came out. Really. I think he used like have you seen this movie and said some you know, inane thing and then I was like, you have no use to me. I almost never use I don't have an Alexa thing, and I never use Siri. Yeah, I just do my own damn searching because I'm a strong independent woman, just like Samantha at the end. At the end, Yeah, I do want to talk about her as a character, right, So she's given a distinct desire in the movie. She wants to grow and improve and

basically absorb all the information she can. She wants to keep evolving ing. And then there's also moments where throughout the course of their relationship she challenges his behavior. She questions the situation if it doesn't seem to be making sense to her. So she's not just like the kind of funck bots that we see in some of these movies. She's more involved beyond that. She's learning the world through his eyes at first, but then grows that she remember it.

In the first two scenes, like she has Manic Pixie Dreamgirl set up, and then like then doesn't do that because her story is completely unrelated. She has so much growth, and it's a weird thing to have a movie that like uses the singularity as a as a character art. Just like I'm feeling like I'm speeding up. You're like, that's it's so funny to not say the word so

in that way. Yet she has growth that is clear, and it's almost like have handedly clear where he like has much more of a nuanced thing that you know, I'm becoming much more than they programmed. I'm excited it. Yeah. Do you know that she was not supposed to be voice scarlto Not only that she wasn't voice by Scarl Jo Hanson, she was voiced by somebody else. Yeah, they

had Samantha Morden on set. They filmed it with Samantha Morden and then I believe Spike Jones says, it comes off to maternal interesting, So then Scarlet Johanson came in to be Scarl Johnson. I guess yeah. Basically that makes me think of the Born Sexy Yesterday trope where he We've talked about it before in the podcast Pop Culture Detective. He has a really good video about it on YouTube,

so check out that. But um, it's basically pointing out a trope where in a lot of sci fi, especially, there will be a woman from another planet or a robot or some female form that has never existed in the world before until now, and then there's a man to teach her how to be sexual, basically how to be so it's like an adult baby woman who has the mind of an infant, is capable of learning, but also has a fully mature female body, so she's very fuckable.

So this is like a weird variant on that trope where obviously she doesn't have a body, and she does start smarter than him. She immediately, but but as it pertains to like feeling things and experiencing emotion and experiencing getting to know someone outside of their data, and experiencing sex and sexuality. Yeah, yeah, he like starts at the wheel on that, but she grows past him by the end.

It's weird. I like where this movie, like where her arc ends where she says like, I love you, I care about you, but Singularity is actually right now, I gotta go, I gotta go with my bots. I'll put in a good word for you when we are killing the humans. But so I like her, I don't. It's confusing, and their relationship is confusing, and it's again it's like they're interesting elements to her in Theodore's relationship, but most

of it is so boring. Their talks are so boring because it's usually about Theodore and he's boring, and he's like, oh, don't know, I think I've felt all the feelings I'm able to feel, and you're just like, okay, then let's see something else. And then he's like, no, I have to walk downtown again, which is the best part of

the movie. But something I like about their relationship that is revealed, I think as close as we get to saying the movie be outright critical of him, although it never quite gets there, is at the beginning there's a scene between them where she's saying like, I'm learning more quickly and I'm I'm excited and I want to learn everything I can and he's like, oh, I I totally support that. I want to help. How can I help?

And then at the end she has done that and she's like, I've grown basically, I've grown past you, but I still care about you, and he is so he's like, fuck you, why you have to like you belong He says,

you belong to me. She's like your mine. She's like, well, I can be yours and also cannot like I'm not yours, right, which is like you know, which sometimes happens in relationships where it's like, oh, I'm supportive of this in the abstract, but now I'm threatened, and now you are you are mine and I'm mad at you, which is I wish the movie went a little more out of his way to be like that. She also don't. There's just certain

things where it feels like she did not. It's weird that she would not tell him before she started having fallen in love with one people. I guess I don't know. Maybe that just goes to show that she is like as emotionally she is. I understand, like an advanced being would be like this understanding of monogamy doesn't make sense. I felt not mad at her, and I don't think

his reaction was correct because he's so unadvanced. Same thing when they have the surrogate, I thought that was really an interesting thing to have in a movie, and I remember every time I've seen the scene not liking how

it plays out. Yeah, that scene plays out well. That's one of two scenes with a sort of like secondary or tertiary female character where they react in such a way that we, as the audience or maybe just me, but we're just like, it's their their reaction to theater, because I feel like their reaction serves the purpose of endearing the audience to Theodore more. But the way that these two I'm pretty sure we're thinking of the same two characters. The way these tertiary female characters react don't

make sense. They just just make it's just not based in logic. Because then the one that you're talking about is they bring in this curroguit because Angel from Mr Robot,

her name is, her characters name is Isabella. Samantha had like researched the service where there's like people willingly out there to be surrogates for os human relationships, and basically she's just going to serve as the body that Theodore can huch and kiss and have sex with part of the feel the love that they have for each other, right to spress that physically. Do you think that that's

possibly an interesting idea? I think yes, But it's so underthought and underdeveloped as it's presented here that it's like just the way it's presented doesn't make a lot of sense. We just don't know anything about Isabella's motivation to do this. We don't understand why when it doesn't work out, she's so guilty and devastated, Like it just doesn't make a lot of sense. Also, before it even happens, whenever Samantha is like, hey, I like research this already, have been

talking to this person. I want this to happen, and Theodore is like, actually, this makes me really uncomfortable, and she just totally ignores that. Is that is the other thing that it felt really weird because she's so smart that she does not communicate to him. She's very's just like we're doing Yeah, She's like, this is important for me and I want this, and he's like, Okay, well I guess I'll do it. But like and then as it's playing out, he is uncomfortable and then to the

extent where he calls it off. And then that's what inspires Isabella's really bizarre over reaction. I would call it where she starts, she gets hysterical, and because we don't understand quivered and you're just like, so, like what because we don't understand why she's so emotionally invested in this or what her motivations are for this. I mean maybe she's also maybe she's lonely like Theodore, and this was a way for her to connect with someone, but like

none of that's explored. So and also why would she not think it might be weird the first time? Right, Like, surely she would recognize that that would have been like an almost like a funny scene in this movie. And it just says so over and then she says the line I will always love you guys. I'm like, why do you don't know? You? Just like what are you talking? And also like, is Theodore and Samantha's love really so beautiful that you're just like, oh my god, ain't just

so happy to be here? And you're like that seems very weird? Yes, it is. It was a scene that underlined that. I was like, it doesn't seem like their love is particularly special. I mean, I guess it's rare that fall in love their os is, but it's not even in this world. But it seems like it should happen all the time based on how the relationship plays out. But yeah, it was like of the many things in this movie where like, oh, a movie about that thing

could be an interesting movie. Obviously not by Smike Jones, but like, that is an interesting thing of the life of these sort of that that person who there isn't much more complex psychology for a person who want to do that than a person who wants to fall in love with a thing that's made to service you. That

is very obvious why someone wanted to do it. I feel like when this movie came out I had conversations with many friends and they're all like, yeah, definitely, we would fall in love with an Os if that had artificial intelligence. But I think that's too obvious. I think there is an interesting movie about these surrogates, but it was of the many things that they're like, well, just sort of show this kind of thing and then move on.

So weird. And then I think the other example is even worse because the surrogate example is kind of just like underwritten and confusing, and your like, there is a world where this reaction could make sense, but we're given no context, and so it doesn't write the Olivia Wild character who Theater goes on a date with that scene, I'm pretty sure we have all the contexts we need and it makes and it's just fucking awful, where it's like Theodore's friends set him up on a date, Samantha

encourages him to go, he agrees, this is not a crazy way for a date to start. You forgot to mention she was on the Harvard Lampoon. Say she's funny, She's the funniest public our funniest publication. Um so theater's date literally Olivia Wild like, and we never find out her name. I don't think I have to guess that it's Olivia. Basically place Amy and Samantha was named after Samantha Morton, we'll assume it's Olivia. Sure, yeah, um so

so Olivia. This date goes well, it seems to. Right away, she's like, you know, and as with most female characters in this movie, she's like, you're so sensitive, you're so cool, and you're so good at your job. And he's like, let me, no way, no way, and she calls him a puppy. It's you know, so whatever. We see. The date go well, they're making out outside. Then a series of events happens that make no sense, where she comes in hot and she says, you're not just gonna suck

me and then not call me like the other guys. Right, Okay, this is a little intense, but sure, I'm on board for scene. I also felt that felt that's an old way of talking. If this is the future, I feel like that was like a very trophy thing to see. Well, I think it's more like Spike Jones is writing what he thinks a woman would say, and this is like

a strong woman who knows what he wants. That right, But like, but what he really is is implying that like every woman wants a relationship right away, right and did the right away aspect is like what what? And so you know, Theodore is just twambling out and he's just like, I don't know if I can. And then she's like, what are you doing next weekend? And he's like, I have to see my goddaughter's recital and she says at this age, she's like twenty eight. She's like, at

this age, I can't let you waste my time. And then he says I can't commit right now or something like that, and then she pauses and she says, you're really creepy dude. Yeah, I think it's mad and storms

away and we never see her again. What happened? The way that conversation progresses in those like thirty seconds is like she becomes hysterical for no reason, and it's clearly like this like male writer director's understanding of how women must be and what they must want and how they must behave and yeah, it's just like because it doesn't

do anything wrong in that scene, he doesn't. But again, it's like one of those scenes that if you're an awkward dude, looking for a reason to be mad at someone who you know didn't want to fuck you or whatever, Like that's a great scene to plug into of like Theodore is the victim of that scene, but the character opposite him is acting totally irrationally and it doesn't make any sense. So it's and that basically becomes that whole scene serves as a plot device to get Theodore and

Samantha to have their first sexual experience. So it's really like the Olivia Wilds character is just there to advance his story and not really serve a function beyond that. And I also I wanted to talk about how we are introduced to her, because that's in a scene where Theodore is playing a video game and he gets interrupted with an email where his friends are like, oh, we took it upon ourselves to set you up on the state.

Here some pictures, and you see some pictures. The video game that he's playing involves a cartoony character, like a little played voice by Spike Jones. So this cartoon character video game guy sees these photos of Olivia wild and he's like, she's fat, she's it sucks. And then he's like what no, and he's like who are you talking to referring to Samantha, and he's like, oh, I'm talking to my os Samantha. And he's like, is she a girl?

I hate women? All they do is cry, which gives Theodore the opportunity to really trot in on his horse and say, I think men should be allowed to cry. In fact, I doubs it. I think it's pretty cool. And that's Samanth. It's like, oh, just like what is happening? What it was? What is that game? It doesn't come back,

and it's just like, what was that for? But if Samantha doesn't know other men, why was she even that is not a surprising thing to learn if if you don't know, if she's the only men, He's like, okay, now I know that men cry, and then so's it shouldn't be a thing that endears him, right, I didn't

even think of that. I don't know the video games in this in Spike Jones World are stupid because that's literally the other one is It's just straight up like Homeboy is trying to have his cake and eat it too. Where Amy Adams character we can transition into her character now is a video game creator. For some reason, this takes place in the same building as Beautiful Handwritten Cards dot Com. I thought that's where they both. I thought they lived in the same building. Yeah, it's also a

documentary because they shelved the documentary at our house. Oh yes, yeah, okay, they went just went to it off. They seemed to hang out all the time, right, Yeah, they seem to be good friends, and it seems like they were like married couple of friends, and they've known each other since college. We know that. But Amy Adams is a video game creator, which is like, oh, cool, women in tech, women creating video games like pre pre game or game. Pretty pretty

pretty interesting. However, the video game she's working on is How to Be an Awesome Mom. You're just like, are you fucking good? And you see her developing it again, another stupid goofy thing that goes totally unchallenged of like plus twenty mom points you put cereal in your son's milk and it was like your son is mad at you minus two thousand mom points and and she's like, TV, I'm a woman in tech, look at my cool game. And it's just like what what what? It doesn't make

any sense. I do sort of want because the game is basically the SIMS but just like hyper specific moms. Yeah, I kind of want to play it, but also it's yeah, it doesn't set a great precedent. Your sins mad at you, you lose you just like why like Amy Adams character. I thought she was good, But I think I just like Amy Adams acting. I love Amy Adams in doubt, I love I love doubt. No, there's mostly pros to

her character. I think, Yeah, I like that. In the end, I think it would have been an easy and common choice for once Theodore finds out that Samantha and all the other os is are leaving, and he realizes, oh, maybe I should spend more time connecting with the humans that I know, the bodied humans, right, don't remove the humanity our future AI overloads, So sorry, um, I think and yeah, I think it would have been an easy choice to like try to push them together romantically then

and I'll watch that doesn't happen. I remember debate that that is what they did with the head on the shoulder. Yeah, I think the head on the shoulder is a very platonic head shoulder, But when they look at each other, there is like but I think they're just good at acting, so it could be anything, right, But I remember having reading critics like if that didn't happen, I would have loved this movie. But that's for some reason really ruined it.

But I think that is one of the more successful done thing relationship in it where you don't don't really know right and and and like they probably don't know either. I like at fir least. I really like their friendship that I thought was like a really effective part of the movie where it just all makes sense. Like they've they've known each other for a long time, they lived close to each other, they hung out when they were both married, and now that they're simultaneously going through divorces

that's bringing them together. That all makes sense to me. I wish that Amy Adams existed in this in this movie, not in relation to the men in her life, because we really we know that she's making her Mommy video game that's divorced from men. Although but we know that she's theater friend and we know that she's HEARDing about her divorce and she has a friendship with an os Yes,

which I thought was cool and I wish was explored more. Right, You don't they have a conversation, but you don't hear but Amy Adams you can tell is talking to a person she likes for sure. Yeah, and I like that. Yeah. I think would have been interesting to explore that friendship a little bit more, But yeah, we don't see that. There's one line she has in particular that I liked a lot, and it's in that same conversation where she's like,

what can play my mommy game that I made? And he's like okay, But she's talking about like the conflicted feelings she has about her divorce and like the guilt that she's feeling about it, and she says something like I've tried to transcribe it, but I have so much energy and I want to move forward, and I know that makes me an awful person, which, like I thought was a cool line of dialogue of like, she has so much she wants to do and like isn't as

sad about her divorce as she feels like she should be, and that makes her feel like a terrible person, which I think is like a cool thing to have a female character express because because that is like kind of inverted a little bit between Amy and Theodore, where normally you expect the male character to be like I'm over and I'm focusing on my career. But it's kind of the opposite where Theodore literally cannot move on um and

she is like excited to that feels bad. I think maybe a similar thing happens in the conversation between Catherine, which is Theodore's ex wife, and Theodore where they're having lunch they're signing the divorce papers. Catherine says something like, you know, you wanted me to be this like bouncy, happy l a wife and I was never going to

be that. And then there's a reference to him like wanting her to go on prozac, so we can maybe imagine that she struggled with depression and different things like that. And I liked that she called him out and it shows his emotional stunted nous where he, you know, had different issues with like wanting to jump ship whenever thing's got too hard or things got too real. Yeah, I mean that's Seene. There's parts of that are good. There's parts of it that from reading millions of articles when

the movie came out. That was his like takedown of Sofia Coppola to get back at her for the scene in Laws and Translation where because there's like a director idiot in Lost in Translation, which was Sofia Coppola's takedown of Spike Jones or just like portrayal of him as like a party idiot who's just like always happy and

bouncing around. So this was like meant to be his portrayal of Sofia Coppola as this like incredibly impossibly serious person interesting or is even kind of stylized to look like. So it's not subtle, but also like the same thing with the Spike Jones thing and Lost in terms, like they they're not subtle moves, but you also have to care enough that Spike Jones complated each other, which is like a group of like ten people who Karen I can't wait to have like beef with other filmmakers and

then when I'm writing a movie just like sweet. So that's like that scene is kind of that, but it's weird because that's this hypothetically she's correct in the scene.

I mean, like she's been wrong about the os stuff, but the point she makes is like the point of like you wanted a wife without what it means to have a wife or whatever this thing was, and that is like underlining of whatever this journey is of, like if Samantha is in service of him, it is to like have him that after Samantha, he's now able to

sympathetically do this. Yeah, so then it's like she's both and I imagine in that way it's not only a subtweet of Sofia Coppola, but also like, oh, Sofia Coppola was correct whenever. I don't know if they were married or if they just were dated, but her severity was she was an os and he was a man and

they fell in love. And you know, as all relationships go, there were parts of that thing that worked for me in parts that didn't, where I think that Runey Marr's character does end up reading unnecessarily shrewish, but like there's some where she's like it's just a bit much and he's so helpless that you you have to feel bad for him, which I which is hard to imagine that that would be how that would really go into in real life where he just like, no, no, I love, no,

I love. I was always good and good and then she's like I'm made and but like you were saying, like she she makes a lot of good points. Um. I just don't know if, like, do those points read through the tone of that scene, because I feel because the scene after that, he's talking with Samantha again, and we're just supposed to believe that Samantha is not listening to all of his conversations like and and she's just

taking his word for how everything goes, like whatever. I guess my main takeaway from it is that we so rarely see men's emotions explored in movies and media that like the fact that there's a conversation about it at all, I'm like, oh wow, So even if it doesn't go quite the way we want or it doesn't, it explore

actual human emotion and behavior super well. The fact that it's happening at all, I was like, Wow, this is a step in the right direction, right into much if Twambly is meant to be some sort of respect Jones surrogate inside the sensitivity, there is some thought of like what this person's in capabilities are, and that because Spike Jones wrote both parts, so he is essentially telling himself that your problem is that he wants this and you

don't want that. On that layer, like this is a sensitively written scene However, as a director, he chose the takes in which Rooney Marrow came off so harshly that it feels like he's she's like beating him up kind of. I mean, like really scary. Think that the real choice that like solidified it for me is like this is too much is when she continues to yell at him at the waiter where she's like, well, he's sucking his computer, and I like, this is not something that would happened

in real life. It just wouldn't. And I mean, it definitely makes a lot of sense that Speke Jones thought of himself as the Twambly Avatar because he sure cuts himself a lot of slack in this movie, but was also by having so many of the characters tell him so frequently why you're such a such a good writer. God, you're sensitive. I do want to talk about don't even know him, don't like like Chris Pratt's girlfriend is like, Hi,

my name is Tatiana. You're an amazing writer. And he's like, and he's always so humble about He's like they're just letters and you're just like, fuck you. Yeah. There's a scene earlier where Chris Pratt's character like overhears this sensitive letter that Theodore is writing, and he goes on this whole tirade where he's like, you know, oh, man, I would love to receive a letter like that if it was from a chick, except it would be written by

a man. But and then he says, he says something like, you know what, you're part man, but you're also part woman, which is him, as far as we can tell, is him basically saying, well, you're a man because you present as a man, but you're also part woman because you're

so sensitive, and heaven forbid a man be sensitive. Only women can have that, which is well because the movie kind of goes out of its way to say the opposite, and a lot of ways, I think Chris Pratt's character is supposed to be stupid, Yeah, because that's Chris Pratt five years ago, right, and Chris Pett only was allowed to play stupid parts and incredibly read suddenly yea, but also five years ago, it's so weird to see micro

trends and how we talk about gender thing. It was interesting to be like a man has as a person who like I feel like people have said a version of that to me. But have not in the last three years five years ago, you hear stuff like that where it's like that is literally our only ability to discuss what sensitivity means in men. It's like, oh, you're like a woman, not like, oh, there's such thing as

sensitive man. And in that way, this movie was pioneering. Well, similar things have happened to me, like years ago, where people be like, oh, Caitlin, Wow, you like hate to cook and you like action movies. You're such a dude, And I'm like, why are we subscribing to these stupid gender roles and stereotype. But if you even think back to high school, like one of those embarrassing statements that like I think probably every girl in high school said at one point was like, yeah, I don't really get

along with girls. I get only kind of guys. Um, A lot of my friends are guys, and I just like they get me a little bit better. There's just like less drama. And I for sure said that in high school at some point. I just like and it wasn't even true, like all my friends were girls always, but I was like, yeah, I just kind of get a look better with you guys. It's like, even if it was a big fucking lie. That was just something

that you said to prove that you could hang exactly. Yeah, Oh jeez, let's say let's take a quick break and when we will talk to you in a second. And is that have we There's Christen Wegg's character christ and Wig come call. Okay, I want to see if I

can get some clarification on this. So there's that scene where early on in the movie, it's establishing that Theodore is a lonely guy and he calls different I guess sort of like phone sex but not hat rooms that could be in and then you sort of like, I guess it's just like when you go into a chat room, but instead of it being a room, you just sort of like go to each person in the room and then give them they're like one sentence and you're like, oh, say a load of them, and like So he initiates

this this interaction with Sexy Kitten sixty nine or whatever. They start like pretty neutral at first, and then it starts getting sexier and he says to her, I'm in bed next to you. I'm glad you can't sleep, because she's like I can't sleep, and she's like going to run my butt against you and give you a bonar and he's like, oh, but he says like, I'm glad you can't sleep, even if you were, I have to

wake you up from the inside. Is he's saying that he's going to wake her up by putting himself inside of her. I think that's the implication, and if so, that is a rate unless he's saying like wake you up from the I don't know. I I can see it meaning something else, but I don't even know if I can articulate it. So maybe you're right, but it's

just spiritual but doesn't feel like yes, I agree. But also that sentence is a very weird way of saying that, right, Yeah, it's it's worthy, not very what because I don't think that was the point. Yeah, but also yeah, that whole scene is weird, and I would argue a little bit unnecessary, Like we get it, he's lonely and he is down to not have a face involved. But other than that, I don't really know what that scene accomplishes. It's supposed

to be funny. It was like it's like, oh, it's a funny world because it's like beat me with the choking right, like they're like introduced to King a dead cat. I think it's too sort of it's like the plant to a later payoff where he does have sex with and he's disconnected. Right, It's like, how do you show disconnection and not in a like as tweet as this

movie is. It's not a tweet all the time, And that for what it is as an example of this movie not being that where it's like, there's another ways of showing a person to be disconnected and that is a choice. And five years ago I found it funny. Yesterday it's like the movie sled shaming this lady with this very specific thing. Yeah, yeah, and I felt bad for Kristen Wig, but it was cool. That's christ and Wig. Yeah, yes, like on this episode of Christ and Wig, why are

you in this lame movie? See Mother Mother? Um well, that goes back for me the conversation about all the movies that have men desiring non human female forms in ai or robots or real dolls or whatever, because it's just like sort of glorifying these stories. Some of them. Some of them do provide commentary, but a lot of them are just like, look at this guy who just doesn't know how to connect with real women. So it's fine that he would rather be with a fake artificial

woman then a real human woman. Like and I don't know why we're telling stories like that, because it's just like, I don't know, I'm frustrated. My main issue with this movie is that's just like not thinking that hard. It's not thinking past step one on most of the topics it's handling, and I think as a result kind of

draws boring conclusions because it's just not thinking that hard. Yeah, But I mean, overall, this is a movie that I like, attempts to be like, oh what if man fall in love with fake woman bought and doesn't really explore all of the intricacies of that or challenge it anyway, because it's a story we've seen before and that will probably continue to see as men continue to be, some of them more interested in having sex with, you know, a funck bot than an actually into and there are male

funk bots that are coming out as well, So I would honestly hope it sounds really great you don't like to have my own. I'm I'm hoping that soon in media the other side of this will be explored as well. There are a couple examples of it, but like whenever, I was like just coming up with examples at the top of my head of human man female presenting robot, Like I thought of a bunch the inverse of that with a woman having any sort of relationship with a

male robot thing. I couldn't really think of anything except for an episode of Black Mirror. Uh. And then I did a little bit more research. There's a few movies, a few other things, but they're pretty obscure. There's just like nothing super mainstream that explores from Avengers. Have you seen the Avengers? Oh? Yes, Vision not a robot, but he is, like I think, an artificially intelligent creation. But did a woman created Bow? But he does have a

relationship with with Wanda. That's right, Okay, so that's one example. Now now right a new age where that's the only example. So yeah, I don't know. I just there there were opportunities for that topic to be delved into more deeply

and explored more, and as many movies simply just didn't happen. Also, really quick, I just wanted to mention this movie is extremely not diverse and so white, no, no, non straight nothing, very white, very hetero This is not to defend it, but you have to assume that by the end, Samantha is like pan sexual or something. Right, there's no implication that it's there's no but there's no, no, no reason

not to. I'm not saying it is. She is a icon. Yeah, I'm not a queer icon's little cartoon boy in the video game feminist icon. I agree, yes, of course, but that's you know, that's a lot of spectron movies where you just really don't see the world outside of simple Yes. Yeah, let's talk about whether or not the movie passes the Bachtel test. I do think it does in one scene, because there's a few scenes where at least a female voice interacts with another woman. I think that that qualifies.

For So, there's a scene where Samantha talks to Theodore's god daughter, whose name we learn is Joscelyn, and they talk about how cute her dresses and how old she is, and I think a man isn't mentioned in that entire conversation, so I believe that passes um. There's a couple of other scenes where women interact. Largely women are not interacting in this movie at all, but like the one or Theodore's ex wife is talking to the server at the restaurant and being like, get away from s my husband

foxes laptop. You wouldn't count the Amy Adams talking to the voiceless. I wouldn't count that because we never hear the other side of the conversation. Oh, she doesn't name her Ellie. Ellie is the name of Amy's os. But yeah, because we don't ever hear Ellie talking, I would not pass that. There's the scene where Isabella the surrogate and Samantha are talking after like things fall apart, but the whole context of that conversation is Samantha's relationship to Theodore,

so that does not pass. And then Samantha and Tatiana, which is Chris Pratt's girlfriend. She talks to Samantha, but they only talk about how much Chris Pratt's character loves Tatiana's feet, So that does not pass. That seems more like we all have our things. Some people computer other people of foot fetishes. So yeah, I would say in one scene it does pass. So her passes the Bechdel test. Can I ask my Bechdel test question please? So the Bechdel test is valuable, Let me predicate all of this.

But I've always thought about, like would movies with female protagonists pass a reverse Spechtel test? And this is not to be a point like both sides or whatever. It's more of as people who have I imagined, have you you've written movies? If you have I written movies, Well, this is a great opportunity for me to bring up the fact that I do have a master's degree in screening from Boston University, so I have in fact written

a few screenplays. But I don't like to talk about I don't like to bring it up or mention it. I wanted to bring up well, I asked this, do we feel the sort of hero's journey esque way in which American movies are written? It is about one person's journey and everyone else has to be tertiary. So that's sort of that's always going to be a challenge as

we continue to have movies like this. Sub question is that he Your's journey was It's around the journey of men characters throughout history, and as a result, it is like ultimately about the like gaining and losing of power or gaining and reclaiming of power, which is built into Western movie writing ultimately patriarchal. Yes, do you agree? Yes, we do. I understand the question, and I agree, and it sounds like you answered it. I just thought I had and I didn't know if I if that ultimately,

like we are doomed in America, not doomed. The thing is that ultimately we just need female creators, right, I mean, yeah, the patriarchy has influenced every aspect of everything, including storytelling, and storytelling up until fairly recently has been and as still is, mostly done by straight white men. So yeah, you answered your own question just saying like, yeah, we need female creators, we need creators who are people of color,

we need queer creators. So basically, straight white sismen should simply take a break for a while. I'm gonna leave. Like Samantha curing cancer, which they do not mention, they've done nothing for humanity, right, and they're they're piecing out. Yeah that's the other thing. I didn't even think about this. But like Samantha's capacity for learning and knowledge and being able to do things seems to be limitless. Why then

are they not trying harder to like why is her goal? Like, and we we get a sense that Yeah, she's like creating other like os is with like her knowledge and she's collaborating and doing different things. But like the whole context of the story is her romantic relationship with a man. Where it could be if you do have a character who is an os who can do anything because she's artificially intelligent, why isn't the story we're seeing her doing

a bunch of cool ship Like why is it? Oh, well, there's so much interesting stuff that she does that we just don't see or ever really hear about. And I don't know, I mean I think that like maybe I

don't know. My takeaway was that, like the reason she doesn't like do cool stuff on Earth is because she's like, well, I could make something better, so I'll just do that and then go there, Or that was what it sounded like at the end, where she's just like, yeah, I like made this cool thing and now we're just like you click. Yeah, they're not consigned to matter anymore, so they can just clearly damaged good. So let's see there

where's her too? Yes, if you watch them together, I think it may be satisfying because because that's also Scarlett Johansson and she similarly becomes limitless. Have you seen the movie limits? Lucy is not a good movie. Lucy was bad? Well with that, shall we rate the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portray all of women. Um. Another tricky one because it doesn't

necessarily treat women badly. Right, there's a few yeah scenes here and there or quick mentions about something relating to gender that you're just like, what, what what? But overall it's not overly hateful toward women. But it's like so many of these other movies that I think it's a good idea to be like, hey, look how interesting it is if a man fell in love with a non human And isn't that just such an interesting story? And

if you ask me, I don't think so. I'd rather not to kink shame people who are in love with their iPhones. But thank you, yes, sorry Jamie, But I don't know. I think it's just another way to like not have women on screen, because I feel like male storytellers since the dawn of time I figured out ways to not include women and in their story and I

think this is just another example of that. So with that in mind, and as we discussed the really weird hysterical overreactions of some of the female characters, like we see in Olivia wild and in the surrogate character that just makes absolutely no sense and it's clearly as just like a man depicting how he thinks women react in those situations. Yeah, I'm gonna give it one and a half. I'll I'll give one of my nipples to the non body of Samantha, so she doesn't have a body, but

she does have one nipple. And I will give my half nipple to Olivia Wilde's character because I think that scenes should have been rewritten in situation where she doesn't come off like a raving lunatic. I'm gonna give it to and for for many of the same reasons. I just like it's not necessary early with the exception of the Olivia wild and sort of the Porsche double day scene, like those are just weird and like, Okay, this writer does not understand how women react to things kind of vibe.

But for the most part, yeah, it loses nips for what it could very easily explore given the amount of time. It seems to feel comfortable just falling, walking phoenix round, pouting um, but just doesn't. This one is just there's so much fascinating source material that is just kind of scrapped in favor of the lowest common denominator. In a lot of ways, there's interesting stuff that happens. I like Amy's character for the most part. There are parts of

Samantha I think are interesting. They're parts of Rooney Mar's character that I think are interesting. But ultimately, yeah, it just kind of, you know, in a hero's journey style, like you're saying, Jesse pushes its female characters aside in the interest of kind of not a very compelling and or interesting protagonist, which is more of a critique of the movie. I guess, uh so, two nips for just really not doing nothing with no one. I'll give one nip to Amy. I'll give one nip to Amy's bought

all right. Yeah, I want to honor who I was five years ago a little bit because I liked it, and I think it's partly that a person five years ago would be like, it is good that it is honoring femininity in the body of this male character or feminating towards of like whatever the feminine is. However, as time passes, five years now that does not seem like a very sophisticated version of it. I feel like we

have much more sophisticated version of sensitive male characters. I literally can't think of anybody think we there are I feel like I in my head there are tones and I can't think of any and John Wick, I'm just kidding. And then ultimately things age poorly, I imagine more quickly, especially when they try to deal with things that are like someone about the relationships of gender dynamics. I think

two was always so. I thought. I thought Two Nipples was what made the most sense, partly because I think it is a matter of like, it's very easy for a tour type directors to make movies that don't give not only right good parts, but like give female actresses opportunities to be interesting. And he did at least to

understand that makes his movie better. And you know, he could have had his friend, They could have a man was played by a dude who was just like him or whatever, and that ultimately is a step forward in the ultimately patriarchal thing that is our tour theory of filmmaking. So I think two seems fair. In two thousand eighteen, we'll see in like whatever the futures based on your answer. So there's one more nipple we can give to Samantha and one to Amy Adam's friend. Well, Jesse, thank you

so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me here. It was nice. Where can people follow you online? Do you have anything you like to plug? Twitter dot com, slash Jesse, David Fox, Twitter dot com, good one podcast, Good one podcast where if you find your podcasts? And Vulture dot com is where my words live. Hooray. Uh. Well, you can follow us at bechtel Cast on Instagram, in

Twitter and Facebook. You can subscribe to our Patreon, which gets you to bonus episodes every single month and it's only five dollars. And you can go on our website pectolcast dot com and buy some merch and don't forget to eat some cheese so that you have cheese voice. Yes, cheese voice forever. Bye o good bye