Grease with Gracie Gillam

rampant misogynists. It's such a waste of a good outfit, and they have the most the funniest um, the funniest voices. Yeah, there's a They've got a lot going for them, and then it's all squandered. The waste of a powerful aesthetic. It's used for evil. That's true. Hello and welcome to the Backtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Doronte Ames Jamie Loftus. Sorry for totally bailing on the singing. You know, I'm I'm used to it by now. Is that true before? No?

But I'm thinking so, I'm thinking back to our recent Beauty and the Beast episode where you fully commit to the song too much and pissing my pants laughing the entire time. So it's not good singing. So we are there. The Bechtel cast. We examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point. Jamie,

what is it the Bechtel test? What is it? Well, since you asked the Bechtel test, there's a media metric invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, that, for our purposes, requires that two characters with names of a marginalized gender speak to each other about something other than uh may in it sounds like it should be easy enough, but a lot of things don't pass, and then some things that do pass. I'm

not foreshadowing in anyway. Um, some things that do pass are still like really really not. It doesn't you know, it doesn't vouch for content. It's not a metric that vouches for content, But true, what was the worst one? What the all time worst one? Is? Still? She's all that right where it's like, oh yeah, Claire Duval is like down you should kill yourself and Rachelieu cooks like, oh, no, is that I forget how that comes? No? Thank you, I don't remember. Well, h we have an amazing guest today.

I'm so existed. We do. She's an actor. You know her from z Nation and Teen Beach Movie, which is my favorite d com of all time. It's Gracie Gillum. Hi, everybody, welcome, Welcome, I'm so active here. Wow? What so let's talk Greece, shall we? I feel like your character in the Team Beach movies is kind of like a grease or girl, like a pink lady almost right, Yeah, definitely, it's all coming together. Went back and watched it and I was like, wait,

it's all connected, It's all connected. And then well, Team Beach movie is really supposed to take place like the movie within a movie is more of a Frankie in a Net movie. And then Greece definitely has Frankie avalon and it and then has a joke about a Nets tips. So it's pretty much the same movie as Team Beach movie, same energy, energy, same energy. So apart from that, what

is your relationship with Greece? The movie? Grease the property in general, tell us everything grease the word uh, Greece is the word is the word? Is the word? Um? Greece is a VHS tape that I had growing up. It's a movie my dad I think went out of his way to see three or more times in a theater. I think it was serving me early, outdated, surface level feminism in a way that really I loved as a child. So I've seen this movie way more times than I

could possibly count. And then my high school ended up doing Greece, even though it was kind of a fancy arts high school that wouldn't do a show like Greece, but Governor Rick Perry was going to cut arts funding for the entire state of Texas, so we had to prove that we could make money during the spring we did Greece. That is so bleak. You're like forced to do Greece so that you can continue to get an

arts education. Very chill, Rick Perry, very chill. Um. It is how I got my first Hollywood agent as he saw me play Rizzo in Greece and gave me his business card after the show. What you got discovered through Greece in Texas. It's a really old school kind of story that's beautiful, And you played Rizzo. That's amazing. Yeah, You're like, here's my card, kid, And I was like, I have a four point three to g p A, I'm going to college guy, And then I didn't nice

love that colleges a scam. So you know, I have not seen Greece since I performed it my senior year of high school. So I, oh, sorry, I have rewatched it for this podcast. I've watched it a few times within the span of a very few days. WHOA that is like that's like a very deep relationship with Greece, Like we can't follow that. Yeah, yeah, Jamie, what's your pitiful history with It's nothing, No, it's um, it's just less.

My grand should be. Really, my grandma had the vhs and she would make us watch like she's like two vhs and one was Greece and one was River Dance, and so I would always choose Greece, just kind of like because I didn't want to watch River Dance. Um.

So I've seen that. I've seen the movie a bunch, but then I feel like I've seen so many community performances of it, Like my school didn't do it, but like friends schools did it, and like summer theater always would do Grease, and so I think I've seen the movie a ton and then like five or six different local productions and they're all mixed up in my head. And yeah, I think I think that's that's kind of it. I still the music is still so goddamn catchy. I know. Yeah, Caitlyn,

what's your history with it? I didn't grow up with

this movie. In fact, I'm not even sure I might not have seen it until so it's kind of hard to know because it's so cultural, like Osmo City for sure, and like the songs would especially like Summer Nights and You're the one that I want, and like maybe Grease Lightning, and like some of the more popular songs devoted to you, Like there's so many that you're just like, even if you haven't been within ten feet of this movie, you know what it sounds though with that song, those songs

would like play it like school Dances in our cafeteria and like junior high and stuff like that. But I don't think I really saw I don't think I really saw the movie for the first time until honestly, I don't. I think I may be like watched it once in college, but then I rewatched it when we covered Greece too, which we have done on the podcast years ago with

follow in Georgia. Yes, you know, for some reason we're like, screw Grease, We're going to cover Greece too first, and then we'll get to the first Greece four full years later. How it was intended. Um So, I really have little exposure to the movie itself, but I know the characters like Danny Zuko and Sandy and Rizzo like their iconic characters. The songs are iconic. It was yeah, very much just

like a cultural osmosis thing. It also was like re released in theater several times for different you know, like anniversaries, and it's definitely like one of those like Unkillable Proper because there's like I was looking online to see because I remember there was like one of those TV stage productions that starred Vanessa Hudgens a couple of years ago.

As Sandy can't say, I watched it well because there was only one Vanessa Hudgens in it, and it's like, if you're not going to have more than one Vanessa Hudgens in your movie, why bother wast waste my time? She's doing one accent one accent per movie. I just know she's capable of so much more, and so I

can't watch it. Um. But then there's also like a new series, a paramount series called Grease, Rise of the Pink Ladies coming out like next year, and then there's another there's a prequel about the summer where they're loving and it's like it's very interesting to me because in like researching like where is I was like, I don't know where grease discourses, I guess, and it seems to be both like very like it is like not a hot take by any means to say, like most of

Greece's plot points age exceptionally badly, but then also they're still like making grease stuff. It's weird, but also at the same by that same token, I could see, like by nineteen eight standards and like the stage production first one up and I think seventy one, I could see like some components of the story being like kind of progressive and maybe even like feminists for that time. Very

second wavy. Yeah, so you know it's it's a it's nestled in an interesting place in history, and yeah, we're we're still uh you know, adapting it to prequels and uh, spinoffs and all kinds of stuff. So I truly can't think of I'm like, what, Maybe it will be great, but I'm like, who cares about the summer? Where they love? And I learned everything I needed to know. And in the first minute, right he's on the beach. It was summer, they were loving. That's all I needed to know. But

what about those summer nights. Don't you want to know about the summer nights? You're right, I didn't know enough. I only saw them during the day and that was That's what I'm saying. Um, well, should I dive into the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah, let's party. Okay, So we are in the late nineteen fifties. I think we're in California in the movie, although it's not fully specified, I feel like they're the race at the end, they're

like driving along the l A l A River. Yeah, I think that I looked at I don't I know that the stage play takes place in correct New York. Okay, it's supposed to be upstate in New York, which is why everyone in the play is like pretty explicitly Italian. That makes so much more sense because explicitly a schell it kind of This is a horrible connection, but it kind of reminded me because I thought they were in

Socall in this movie, but I wasn't sure. I also saw somewhere that it was supposed to be Delaware, and I don't even know what Delaware looks like. So well, Google has a beach like that. But maybe they were vacationing the same place. Yeah, I well, the one of the writers of the stage production based off of his high school in Chicago. But yeah, for I don't know, yeah, the movie. I googled like, where does Grease the movie

take place? And then someone like California came up, But it was just because I think it was just shot in California. I don't. It looks like California, but they all sound like they have fifties New York New York. Right. It reminds me of really terrible connection, but it reminds me of really where. It's like Ben Affleck's Grace. Have you seen Gelie? I'm sorry, definitely don't watch it. It starts like Ben Affleck. It's another movie that takes place in l A where like Ben Affleck has this like

weird Newsy's accent. The whole time. We were like, how is this possible? He's wearing like a heavy coat the whole movie, even though it's agree he's wearing a leather coat. He's has his hair all slipped back. It's out of control. Um. Anyway,

so we are in an unclear location. Um, But Danny Zuko that's John Travolta of course, and Sandy is Olivia Newton John are teenagers who have just spent a romantic summer together at the beach, but the romance has to come to an end because Sandy has to go back to Australia. I love that. I didn't realize that she is not Australian in the in the play, and it's just because Olivia Newton John couldn't do a passable American American.

I love it and the play. It's a surprise that he is at that school because he lies about going to a private school to her over the summer. So interesting, that's a more effective plot point. Yeah, she was going to go to the Catholic girls school and he was going to go to the boys school or whatever, and they both end up at the public school, but because that's where he actually does so was he trying to make him seem like a higher class, like a higher

economic class than he is and like less of us? Lad? I guess yeah, sure love it. Um. First we cut to right l High. It's the first day of senior year for Danny and his greaser friends who call themselves the t Birds, which also thirty five years old. There's it's been held back so much. Even watching this movie on in three a DP on to be I was like, these these men are simply not seventeen air forty, especially who was like the word like one of the most

misogynistic guy. This is not helpful, But I think his name is Sunny Sonny the Dog. Yeah. First of all upsetting for me because I already lived with a misogynist named Sonny and it's my dad. But that the guy who plays Sonny especially, I'm like, you're a father, Like what do you? How did you? But then you're like, oh, he's a he's a good dancer. He's a good dancer. I think he's actually thirty one in that movie, although I agree that he looks thirty eight. Rough break, rough break.

For Sonny, he's had a difficult life. Maybe yeah. Well, in addition to Sonny, there's k Nicky and Putsy and Duty. They run with a group of girls called the Pink Ladies. Rizzo is the leader. Uh Stalkard Channing plays this rendition of of Rizzo. Gracie Gillum has played an incredible version of Rizzo, just saying many icons have played this role. Um. And then there's also Jan Marty and Frenchy and French.

She introduces the Pink Ladies to Sandy, who ended up not going back to Australia and who is instead going to high school at Rydel this year. Um. But Danny and Sandy don't know yet that they are both at the same school. Then we get the Summer Night Song where Danny tells the t Birds about the girl he met over the summer, and Sandy tells the Pink Ladies about the boy she met and that his name is

Danny Zuko and they're like, oh, oh, no scandal. Then at a football game, the Pink Ladies are like, hey, Sandy, look who it is, and it's Danny. But Danny, because he's in front of his like tough guy friends, he feels that he can't be vulnerable and show his feelings for Sandy, so he plays it all cool and aloof like he doesn't really care about her, which of course hurts Sandy's feelings, and she runs off. She loves Sandy does be running off. She runs off so many times.

She's just like, exit left. I can't handle this. She is exiting the scene constantly. There. I liked that. That was another fun like place where the whole Australia thing um just sounds really bizarre. Where he's like, how did you like? How are you here? I thought you were going back to Australia. She's like, we change change. You moved to like Echo Park instead of home to Australia. Wild,

I know. Um. So Sandy is very sad she has run off, and to cheer her up French she invites Sandy over to her house for like a pink lady's sleepover, But then they all just end up like mocking Sandy for being like a goody two shoes, and then the tea birds show up, and then Rizzo goes off with Knicky and then they have unprotected sex in the back of his car. Meanwhile, Sandy is still sad about Danny being a jerk. So she sings a song about being

hopelessly devoted to him. It's cute. I like the end where it's like the water and then you just see a John Travolta floating in the water and you're like, oh, that's I love how she puts Marty's nice stationary into a cave pool and then he leaves it like an asshole. What a weird choice, Sandy. Someone had to clean that up, Sandy. And then she runs off, and she loves to run off. It is stunning how many I should have counted. She runs off so much. I I think I have a

pretty good count in the recap alone here. But um so, Meanwhile, so there's this other group. There's like a rival group of Greaser's called the Scorpions, which is just like a Jets and Sharks thing, right, Yeah, I think I think maybe the Scorpions don't go to Rydell or some thing. I'm not totally sin. You can't not be going to ride all. That's not good. Their leader is someone who I think is named Leo. I don't know if they even never say his name. In the movie. They call

him crater Face. I think maybe that's his nickname. Anyway, there's this guy who bangs up Kinnicky's car, so the Tea Birds have to fix up this car. And this is when we get the Grease Lightning song, which I think is also the name of the car. A lot of stuff around this that is pretty unclear for me, as you can tell um that dance sequence is still so good and the outfits the tea though, when the Tea Birds do the outfit change in Grease Lightning, I'm like, where do I get a silver one es for men?

Like I really want that? Something that I find fascinating about this type of movie featuring this type of character who are like these like macho grease or tough guys, the kind of like cognitive dissonance of then them busting out into like choreographed songs with like these flashy outfits and they're dancing and they're singing, but it's like they're supposed to be these like tough masculine guys, and like,

I just think that that dissonance is very funny. Chats and Sharks Baby the best, Like that's like the most iconic like like hyper masculinity and uh, while also like effortlessly executing a dance right, very masculine combing of the hair, you know how it's supermanly to constantly be grooming yourself. Um um okay. So meanwhile, Danny goes and tries to apologize to Sandy for being all aloof like he was, but Sandy's like, screw you, I'm dating Tom. Now, who

is this football jock? So Danny starts to try to be a jock also to impress Sandy, and then we get this very long sequence where he tries a bunch of different sports and sucks at all of them. I did not remember that sequence at all. I honestly didn't remember because I think that there's so much like valid conversation, but like a lot of conversation about how Sandy changes for Danny. I forgot that he also tries to change

everything about himself. The tone of it's a little different, but like it's just I was like, oh right, huh okay, I yeah, I totally did not remember that that happens. Does that happen in the play as well? No, you can't have that many costume changes in a play. Also, plays don't really have fun and games sections the way that movies do, and kind of a very literal fun and game section of this movie. Yeah, he's just playing

a bunch of different games. It's just like John Travolta in a series of different pairs of shorts and the play it's just track. Yeah, And there's kind of no metaphor for the long distance running that the coach kind of gives where you go like, oh, because he has to go long distance running because Sandy is a long

game win. Oh. I didn't even catch that. And the movie it does the passage of time in a way that I didn't get until I watched this with my boyfriend because he was like, oh, because he's trying out for sports in season order, and so he starts off with like a false sport and then he's in track and that gets us to it being the spring Dance about so this is a year long quest for him. Yeah. Yeah, he like grows and changes actually for a long time

if he's doing these different sports. And that's our passage of time in the plot, which is so bizarre because yeah, like the the beginning of the movie, it's their first day of school. The end of the movie, it's like their graduation basically, But the movie seems like it takes place over the course of like a week, so it's really more dissonance that I can't really wrap my head around.

But yeah, so in the movie, he does land on track, which we don't even find out until the end, but we see him kind of like practicing track and Sandy sees this and she is impressed because I guess she loves jocks. I guess she loves athletes. Yeah. Also, the other started, so much of this movie is weird at this school, Like cheerleaders and jocks are like not cool or they're like less cool. They're not cool by the

greaser standards. So yeah, right right, it's like it's an all the kids running high school never heard of it, Like pretty fascinating concept, but I can't relate. Well that's another I'm like, are they like, how popular are they? Is it just that we because we are following their story, you know, we're seeing it through their perspectives, so they're like, Oh, these must be like the cool kids around. But are

they I don't know. I don't know. It seems like they're ruled the school with an iron fist, maybe because I could because they're thirty years old that much. Well, that's true. Because the the the cheerleader girl. I think Patty, Yeah, Patty like it's throwing herself at Danny Zuko, so yeah yeah, and she wants Rizzo to like think she's cool kind of when she comes up to the lunch table and it's like trying to fit in with the I think the pink ladies ruled the school with an iron fist.

I like, I'll allow it. I mean horny all kids running the school as a concept, I like same. So Sandy is now impressed with Danny again and she's like, Hey, there's this dance coming up. You should take me to it, and he's like okay. But before that, Danny takes Sandy to this diner, but Danny is embarrassed because his friends are there, and things kind of fall apart for everyone. We also get the Beauty School dropout song because there's a random subplot where French she has dropped out of

high school to go to beauty school. Then the dance happens where the National Bandstand TV show is there to televise this like dance competition, and Danny ends up winning the competition, but it's by dancing with another girl cha chaw. So Sandy sees this dance with Cha Chaw and she'll never guess what she does. She gets jealous and runs off. So another very weird scene. Yeah. Then we cut to a drive in movie theater and Rizzo she thinks she might be pregnant. The whole school finds out about it

in like ten seconds. I think we're missing that. Marty alludes to the host of the dance trying to drug her or successfully, and it just gets brushed rider reased right past. Put an aspirin in my drink and I was like, I don't think that was an aspirin, Like maybe brush up and not brush over that. Yeah, there's so many things that people just like in this movie. And then you're like, is that going to come back?

Like that was really fucked up? And then it never comes back Like they didn't think that was sucked up. They just thought that was a joke that was normal in night, I guess. So. So Danny and Sandy are also at the drive in and Danny gives her his class ring and then he tries to force himself on her and she doesn't want that, so she runs off again. That's one of the running off that I'm very I was like, Okay, that's that's a good that's a good run off Sometimes and she runs away, I'm like where

are you going? But then that time you're like, oh that is you do run away? Yeah you do. We also get a song here that I feel like, it's not very memorable. I totally forgot about it. It's yeah, I mean it is like objectively watching that of like he forces himself on his girlfriend and then sings a whole song about like why is she so Like it's when he's supposed to reflect and learn about his mistakes in the plot for us to like him at the end, and instead he just complains about it and what will

they say Monday at school? And he obviously means like she left me, that's embarrassing. Not they saw me assault somebody and she screamed and ran away. How embarrassing? Like that that I told I had no recollection of that song, And it is so jarring to listen to now because and it also sounds like at certain parts of like yeah, he's kind of like blaming her for making him look

bad because he's it's not an introspective song. He's just like that song was wild and it's like Danny go home, take a long, hard look in the mirror, like figure, Danny needs to work on himself, and also that like men working on themselves in this movie means joining the track team. It's like a sure, okay, I guess okay. So then we cut to the next day, or what it might be the next day, it might be five weeks later, We're not sure whatever, but um Sandy tries

to extend an olive branch to Rizz. Oh. I think it's implied that she heard that Rizzle might be pregnant, so she's trying to reach out, and I really like that. In between, I was like, I do I love Sandy. I just wish that she could stay the way she is. She's a sweetheart. She's very she's very quick to scare, but she's but she's like such a sweet kind person. I think she has scary parents. It's implied by the movie and more explicitly implied by the play that she's

pretty afraid of her parents. I didn't pick up on that watching me, and I don't know what she's gonna do with all that hair spray. At the end of the movie, she gonna have to shower. French cheese house and get in trouble for having wet hair. She's gonna have to live a double life now. Her parents were like, hey, you thought you were going back home to your home in Australia. Too bad, you live in the United States now in some city. We don't know where we are, Okay.

So in the play I'm sorry to be in the play a guy, but in the place I want to know and the play, Sandy is going to go to the private Christian school, but then her dad gets in a fight with the nun lady there about her patent leather shoes because the school is claiming that that means that people can see up her skirt because her shoes are too shiny. But her dad is obviously the kind of rageful person that can't take that criticism and so pulled her from the school and center to public schooling.

See I think like again, it's like knowing that framework helps you understand Sandy a little bit better, because in the in this movie, it seems like she is just like that's just what she's like. She's like kind of conservative and how she dresses and behaves, and then everyone's like that sucks. You have to change but it's like if there was a context, any context for like she is behaving that way out of reaction to something else and like wants to live in like a more sexually freeway.

That's that makes more sense, I don't think. But the movie don't do that. The movie is for prude self, is her true self, and it makes a no case against that. Yeah, yeah, damn, that did I I did not know that she had a scary I mean, that's it's just mildly implied by the play, but it's definitely more present rageful parents. Okay, So Sandy has kind of like extended in olive branch to Rizzo, and then Rizzo sings a song about how there are worse things that

she could do. Then it is time for thunder Road, which is a race between the t birds and the Scorpions and KNICKI was supposed to race against the head Scorpion guy, but he gets bonked on the head, so Danny has to race and classic jacket guy injury, so Danny races against the scorpion instead, and Sandy is there to watch. She sees Danny Wynn and then she gets an idea, which is awful idea. Sandy gets a terrible, awful ideas, a terrible idea. She runs off to execute

this idea, which is to change anything about herself. She's there to help her, and she basically changes her entire look and her entire personality, and she shows up at the school carnival looking like a greas Or girl, all decked out in black leather, and Danny is like, oh, hubble hubba, and he takes off his letterman cardigan. I feel like that because he's wearing like I didn't need to change. I did forget that he showed up prepared

to change everything about himself. But then she shows up already having changed everything about herself, and then he immediately is like, fuck it, we're both Danny again. Forget about that ship away, never a discussion. I was like, well, okay, but but then it's like, but then they're only ever like happy when they're themselves with each other. So I don't like, how was that whole thing at the unnecessary? He liked, He liked how she was exactly I don't.

It's yeah, there's a lot to talk about there. So she shows up all completely different. Danny likes it. They saying you're the one that I want to each other. Um, and there's some other kind of date moll stuff like pregnant those shouts from a ferris wheel. It turns out him was a false a law. That was the most abrupt resolution to what was like a pretty large plot points, like Jess kidding Eddie is like, Whooo, I'm gonna make an honest woman out of you? Does that? Wait? Does

that happen in the play? Did you get to yell from a distance? Um? There's definitely no ferris wheel in the play, And no, that ending is a little different, um, And it sort of isn't brought up that much except for after they've sung and it's the end. She's like, hey, can we go to the pharmacy? I think I'm getting my friend? And that's like the third to last or fourth the last line of the whole play, Like her period. She's getting her period? Okay, while all right, but she's

not she doesn't know she isn't pregnant. Oh, she just thinks that she's going to get her friend. You can sometimes you feel it coming on, you know, Oh yeah for sure. But I don't know how you know that if you've never known what pregnancy feels like. Hey, CONNICKI, can we stop at the drug store. I think I'm getting my friend. CONNICKI puts an arm around her, and all the kids smile and cheer for Rizzo French. The whole crowd together again. I could cry Jan Jimmie too, Sandy. Yeah, curtain.

Now that's plot resolution in the movie. The last thing we see is Danny and Sandy flying into the sky in Danny's convertible in the fantasy car. Because that's not what the real grease lightning looks like. That's what it looks like in the fantasy Yes, do they all die? That's the best fan theory. Are we going to get into the fan theory? Oh? We could well before we do that. That's the end of the movie. So let's take a quick break and then we will come right

back to discuss. So what do we want to talk about? First? Wait, what is this fan theory? I would love to hear. I would love to hear the fan theories just to get things all heated up. Well, there's a really popular fan theory. Okay, that's Sandy dies in the beginning sequence and the whole thing is her coma dream until she

finally properly dies. At the end, and then that's why there's the shot of the heavenly clouds, So that theory being that when they get splashed in the footage, she actually drowns instead of him just lying about because he sings, she nearly drowned, And so that fan theory takes Zuko's obvious lie about saving her life and says that's true and the whole thing makes sense, and that's why they're singing because she's either been dead the whole time or

in a coma, and then she dies at the end. God. Wait, that's fan theories always like scramble my brain because I'm like, there's no way. But then also it's like, why is there a shot of them flying into the clouds? Then I don't know. I did. I did, Like I remember, like, especially when I was a kid, I did not question it. I was like, Yeah, they're so happy, they're so happy she changed everything about herself and now a car can fly,

Like that's the power of women changing for people. Uh well, shall we shall we talk about that because that is kind of one of the most glaring things, I mean,

one of many glaring things of this movie. And I think it's like the most popular criticism of the movie now too right, Yeah, because to me, so like a main arc of this movie is like Danny kind of being in this prison of his own toxic masculinity and like needing to learn that it's okay to be emotionally vulnerable and to like let his friends know that he cares about a girl. Watching him reach these conclusions and how he goes about doing that is like not handled

the best. But I was like, okay, like this movie it does have more of a commentary on toxic masculinity then I remembered. So I was like, okay, yeah, that this is something. But then he comes to this realization, but it doesn't really matter because Sandy has just completely changed everything about herself for this guy, and he is like, okay, great, thanks for doing that. We can be in love now.

It's really bizarre. I feel like watching through it these like two times to get Ready, it was like I think that, like the popular criticism is like a little overly simplistic, because you're right that, like they it's just weird, Like this movie starts saying a lot of things and then kind of doesn't finish saying any of them, and then at the end they like, actually the status quo was fine, Like it's just bizarre because it's like there were moments where you were like, oh, that seems like

an intentional like this like hyper masculine life that Danny's living is like affecting him negatively and like he's he's not his like most authentic self when he's like with the t birds, and it's clear that the movie wants you to think that way. But then like in the back half of the movie, they're kind of like, but fuck it, who cares? Like it's so weird. It's but I feel like the conversation is started, but then it's just like abandoned, and it was what is like okay

question for the group? What is the like what is what are you supposed to think? At the end of this movie, Like now I was like being like what what was that movie about? You know, it's just everything he does that we are like, oh, Danny, why did you do that? Stop? That is like it is because he's trying to maintain this persona, maintain this like macho persona of toxic masculinity to like impress his his guy friends,

his tough greaser boys. And when he like very clearly wants to be able to be emotionally vulnerable and too like like him be on the beach exactly, although he doesn't suck up stuff on the beach too. Or he's like, I'm going to kiss you and she's like, no, Danny, don't spoil it. Yeah, only making it better. Yeah, And it's like he forces himself onto her in the first scene, the first scene, in the driving scene, in many scenes. Um, and there's a lot to talk about there as well.

But yeah, it's just the takeaway seems like true like either it just is like the takeaway seems just like and the status quote is fine the whole time, and and it's and that's fine. It's just well yeah. So one of the writers of the original production, Jim Jacobs, and I'm pulling this from our favorite scholarly journal Wikipedia, So and I wasn't able to find exactly where what this original quote was or what the original source was, so kind of take this with a grain of salt.

But according to Wikipedia, if you look at the Grease Musical page, it says that Jacobs has described the stage productions basic plot as a subversion of common troops of like fifties movies where in fifties movies, like the female lead would often kind of transform this alpha male into a more sympathetic and sensitive character. So Jim Jacobs was trying to subvert that and make it so that like the story is not doing good and like he stays unsympathetic and she has to change to conform to his

fantasies and to his desires. It's and it's like, why would you why would you subvert that? Like, yeah, it's it's kind of saying like the movie is saying slut

shamming is bad, you know what's good? Prude shaming? Right, Like it's just in like okay, having the context of that attempted inversion, I feel like it's it's kind of follows the same logic of why a lot of these like all female reboots don't work is like let's just have let's just um gender swap this premise and then not resolve any of the harmful aspects of the premise um,

which it doesn't. It doesn't work, like and I guess it is like very second wave feminism to me to to have that kind of like rooted in sexual freedom and like not shaming women for having sex but then also like outwardly shaming any woman who doesn't feel that way, or like just assuming that, well, now every woman has to be extremely horny and if you're not, like you're stuck in the past, you better have sex right now

or John Travolta will force it. Like it's also worth mentioning that Danny's you Go is an incredible slut shamer, and he seems to devalue anyone that he's already slept with, and we see that consistently. Yes, it's like we see him at school for the first time and he says, oh, same old broads everyone's made it with, Like he dismisses

them is unworthy because he's already slept with them. And he does that with Rizzo, he does that with cha Chaw, and it leaves me wondering what how he's going to treat Sandy when he finally sleeps with her, right, And it seems like part of my okay, So part of how I was reading his like determination to win her over was connected to, like, I think that there's just like a lot of Madonna hore stuff going on here

where part of why he's pursuing Sandy. So aggressively is because she will not have sex with him and like that and just like kind of yeah, it's like valuing her exactly and where like he see he perceives her as this like oh if I can get this girl, It's it's almost like the cruel intentions thing where Ryan Phillippi is aggressively pursuing Reese Witherspoon because she's this like ultra virgin type and that's why he's interested in her because like she like she'll never give it up, but

if he can manage to do it, then he's like the Gaul like the King of the World kind of thing. Not to quote Titanic, of course, but a sleep Titanic a perfect movie. This I feel like, I mean, we have no choice but to assume that that's what Danny sees in Sandy because so little there's like zero time spent in the movie showing why they like each other or what is compatible about them, So like that's just

what I assume that. That was another like point that I felt like the movie started to make and then completely abandoned, was that double standard, because the movie seems aware, like very aware of the double standard of how sexually active like teen boys and sexually active teen girls are treated very differently, and that's mostly through iconic Grace character Rizzo, where it's like Rizzo is like that the character where you get that split most clearly demonstrated to you, where

you know, it's like she um thinks that she's pregnant and like is just kind of left completely to her own devices. She's shamed for it, she's cast out for it, and the movie want you to think, like, that's not okay, that's not right, but then it never never resolves in any meaningful way. She they're like, oh, just kidding, and we're not going to talk about the fact that you were ready to the whole school, was you know, ready to completely ostracize her if if it wasn't a false

alarm or like it's just bizarre. But there's another interesting thing happening there too. She has unprotected sex with Kinnicky he finds out about her pregnancy her Gregnancy scare sorry, she's she's almost heavy with Greg, but he I think un maybe not unlike Danny, but there's like, I think an interesting comparison to be made between Danny and CONNICKI, where Knick is like, hey, I heard you might be

knocked up. What can I do to help? And she's like, it's not even your problem, right, I wasn't expecting that either. She's like, it's not your problem. It was someone else's problem. But she doesn't quite say that, like and she kind of uses it. She says it was don't worry about it, CONNICKI, it was somebody else's mistake, And I think that is sort of like I think CONNICKI kind of takes it as it's not his kid. But I think I think that Stoker Channing subtext is it was my mistake. I

don't want your father. Yeah, because that line is different than the play. Interesting. I never thought for a second that she like had sex with someone else and she thinks it might be like someone else might be the father. It's it's clear to me that like he is the father if she is pregnant, but she's more just like lashing out sort of thing. But I found it interesting that like he was like, I don't run away from my mistakes, Like I'm going to be here from you,

you know, like we'll figure this out. But she kind of dismisses him, so he you know, he runs off. He's like He almost like skips away. He's like, oh right, no responsibilities. Another interesting thing about that is that, um so a lot of the like these tea Bird guys are all about like, how can I exert my masculinity? How can I demonstrate my masculinity? Oh, they're in prison.

In prison, They're like, but if they're like, oh, if I've made it with a girl, if I've had sex before, that just shows how awesome I am, which is like a very like standard thing, right. But when we see him and Rizzo kissing in the backseat of his car, she's like, do you have you know, something for protection? He pulls out a condom. It immediately breaks because he's like, I bought this in this seventh grade, implying this he's never had sex before. Yeah, so, I mean, I don't know.

There's just something fascinating to me about Kinnicki where he is kind of like putting on this persona of like, yeah, I'm a greaser boy, I'm a tiber blah blah blah. But he also is like he seems less concerned than Danny does about being emotionally attentive to like to the girl he likes. Yeah, I mean the bar is on the floor for these guys. But like KINNICKI is like, I guess he's definitely not the worst one I got.

I I totally forgot the whole like implication that that was his first time having sex too, and that's like another like that's like starting something interesting of like, oh, there's some double standards ap play here, but then it's just like nothing happening. But I do. I mean, it's like, I Rizzo was my favor as a kid because she's cool and she smokes a cigarette, and that is what being cool means, um in a movie. Even though I remember my mom being because my mom smokes cigarettes like

a fiend. Umill she was. She was like, that's what happened to me. I started smoking cigarettes as a teenager, just like Rizzo, and look at me now, I'm a disaster, you know. So she so she used Rizzo as an anti smoking ad. She's like, oh, Rizzo thought she was

so cool, but she wasn't Jamie. Um. But I like, I I really like how complex Rizzo is, even though it feels like especially the movie doesn't take advantage of how complex her character is because she often even when people offer her help, she it seems like, I guess

I'm curious. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it just seems like she has like a lot of internalized shame and is like unable to accept help from others even when it's well intended, and like she just seems to have like a lot of I don't know, Yeah, it seems like she holds a lot of shame and that's why she pushes Sandy away and Sandy offers to be her friend, That's why she pushes Knicky away, and I don't know, I feel like it's kind of rare in a teen musical to see a character with deep

internalized shame. I wish it like went somewhere, but I just yeah, Rizzo's interesting. There's one of the only things that we really know about Rizzo and Kinnicki's relationship is that they're having a giant fight in front of their friends that is upsetting enough to her so that she throws a milkshake at him. You know nothing about that fight. It never gets rid of. Daniel day Lewis like my cake,

you have um. Yeah, so we know that their relationship isn't perfect before she gets pregnant, and then their problems are solved by her not being pregnant. H right, and it still doesn't I don't know like it. Sandy is a saint first all being nice to Rizzo after how cruel like Rizzo is so mean to her all the time from the moment they meet. But it's it's like I almost wanted more of like a moment of like

understanding or reconciliation with them. I guess they sort of have it there in that scene where Rizzo is like, oh, I will never accept help because of that's just who I am. But thanks anyways, But I mean, it's like, I can't. It's just like an interesting plot point to have someone take out their frustrations on another teen girl, um for something that they're insecure about in themselves, because I feel like that happens in real life at times.

And it's like, but you have to say something about you. I don't know. Yeah, there's sort of an absence of commentary a lot of the time in a movie that you would expect there to be more commentary. I guess maybe not not know, maybe my hopes are too high. I'm a Rizzo stand I'm just like Rizzo. People are reaching out to you off take and take someone's hand. But she isn't pregnant, so then her life is perfect. Perfect.

Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion, and we're back part well to kind of just continue a little bit on the Rizzo conversation, she she sort of almost uses Sandy. She's like trying to get back at Danny I thing for for like kind of leaving her high and dry sort of thing, and she knows that like Danny's gonna react the way he reacts at that like football game bonfire thing. I just feel so bad for Sandy because she's like using

her as a as a pawn. And then there's also this like component with that Patty Simcox like popular girl cheerleader character where Rizzo's like, oh, I'm this is what the other girls are like, and I'm not like the other childs. And that plays in to what to me is like this this movie is sort of like an encapsulation of like white fifties like suburban Americana, where there are these archetypes that we see of teenage boys and

teenage girls. Where we have of the boys, there's like the greaser type, the jocks who we see and like Tom. And then there's like the nerd type because there's this Eugene character who like kind of comes and goes. And then with the girls, we have, um, kind of the greaser girls who don't have a hobby of their own. They're not actually fixing up cars the way the boy the greaser boys are, but they just like run with

that crowd like the pink ladies. Yeah, okay, I guess they're not like greaser girls, but it's like the right, but they run with that crowd their hair, so there they seem to like I mean, it's like it's kind of framed that they they they exist because their friends, but also just kind of to date the tea birds. Like that's just kind of what that's why they unionize. I don't know, did they unionize. I Well, they do

wear their own merch, so that's true. That's true. They at least have a tea public ye, and so do the tea birds. Um. But yeah, that kind I was like, oh, like they hang with the greaser boys who have this hobby of like fixing up old cars, but what are the girls, what's their hobby? Anyway, Then we've got like the Patty simcocks, like cheerleader girl. And then we've got

like the goody two shoes type, which is sandy. So there's all these archetypes which fit into this perception that I think still exists today of like the fifties it was this the good old days. You know, every toodle, skirts, milkshake, yeah, everyone, you know, mary couples, didn't slept in different beds, no one had sex, and everything was hunky dory. And like Greece shows a different side of this like common misconception.

I think the movie sort of seeks in the in the play like seeks to be like, hey, no, like teens have always been this way, like you know, they get into trouble, they have sex, their horny there, you know, doing all stuff. But it's also like Greece is still preserving this idea of like white fifties middle class Americana, and it like does nothing to like challenge that status quo.

There's just like, yeah, like the fact that this is like it comes out in seventy eight, it's about so it's already a period piece, and it's like, I don't know just even like writing wise, if you're going to make a period piece, then you should probably try to say something about the time that you're um and not just be like and everything was way better twenty years ago.

Like there's just even though it's like the the idea of the fifties is very clearly represented here, there's no there's no commentary on it really like there's no there's nothing being I don't know, like it just again it's it's like, well, what, why does this movie take place in the fifties, Why is it important that it does? Is there anything about this culture that is like it's

just really bizarre? And then yeah, they're romanticizing of the fifties in particular, I mean most romanticizing the past is

just like ten Miles Bad Road. But um, but like the fifties in particular, it was like a like uniquely oppressive time in the US for like anyone who wasn't Danny Zuko basically like it's very like high schools were mostly not even integrated, and women were like being encouraged to stay at home and not have jobs, like it was worse than ten years before in like Cartierra was

also it was like totally like restrictive time. But the fat but the but the looks were good and so that, and we all like milkshakes, so you know, there's a little push and pull there. But it's like romanticizing the fifties is always I don't know, I can't, I can't get there. But also I guess you know, people seeing this movie in may have been alive for it, um and but they're like what, like what is the thing? They're like, oh, remember when women couldn't have jobs and

schools were still segregated. I'm like that, huh why. So apparently this play got written at a time at the very beginning of there being this fifties fanaticism in the seventies, And I don't know how the writers in particular felt about it, but definitely the seventies became hugely pop, but the fifties become hugely popular in the seventies, I think, sort of as a reaction to how socially liberal the

seventies were becoming. And that's where the Also, the show was written without music right after somebody with a good sense read it was like this made needs something, maybe needs a little more than this plot. I've definitely never seen a non musical stage version of it. No, I don't think it got very far before they put music

in it. That's that's so interesting. I had no idea. Well, and I haven't read or seen I don't think any stage versions of this, and the stage version that premiered had music in it, but it was originally written without it, So like the like before it was brought to Broadway, got it? I have the I I've read, and Gracie, you can speak to this better than I can't having

just reread it. But like I've read that, um, the movie is like a pretty sanitized version of the play, where the play does seem to attempt to touch on more kind of social issues and like some class stuff and like more about like teen sexuality, and maybe in a more meaningful way. Maybe not. I'm not sure, but I think one of the main criticisms of the movie was that it was a kind of watered down version in terms of it's like social commentary. Got it of

the of the stage production. They definitely in the movie took away moments of Danny actually being nice to her that exists in the play, And they also took away Sandy sticking up for herself when when Rizzo sings, look at me, I'm Sandra d and the diner, Sandy walks in on it and literally attacks Rizzo, and the boys have to pull the two apart, and then they try to fight again and they have to be pulled apart again. So Sandy is willing to beat somebody up about her emotions,

and that is very absent in the film. Yeah, all stuff that would have been great. Yeah, it's like because we we don't see him be very nice to her, and it's like it's truly only like moments of a couple of seconds and never when anyone is looking, which is like, well, it's also never when anyone is looking

into play. He's only nice to her in private, but he says more things that are nice, so like, oh that I mean again, I have to keep reminding myself that this, like this came out over forty years ago. It is about a time period that's like sixty years ago, you know there. But like, I'm just like, why did

they end up together? Why did Sandy just like put up with this horrible He's mistreated her so much the entire story And then she's like, well, I better change everything about myself so that he'll like me and then maybe he'll treat me better. But probably not he does stop touching her. He does, he doesn't touch her without her initiating it during or the one that I want so was she had to change everything about herself so that she that was what made him respect to consent

was her changing her entire personality. She had to dress up like a literal dominatrix with tight leather pants in order for him to listen when she's like, don't touch me. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's tough. It's tough there, and I get and I get, like, I like their romance is very simple and for like the kind of movie it is like most I don't know, I don't even mind a movie musical couple being like pretty simple and just being told like they like each other, and like, I don't

really care that much about that. It's just the fact that we only see him be not nice to her and then her have to and any time she acts in like quote unquote defiance towards him, anytime she just does her own thing, or like goes in dates Tom goes in immediately gets on the cheerleading squad at a new school. What an amazing life. Um, even though she's pretty bad, she sucks' but I was like, oh, wow, she's really struggling to fit in. Just kidding, she's immediately

the most popular girl at school. Um. But yeah, just the fact that we never see him treat her, well, I don't know, this movie is so weird, but I like all the music so much. Um, but it doesn't it.

I feel like it is. Even if even though it's a very simple relationship and we're just told they like each other how they were at the beginning of the movie, if we're taking that at face value, that the way the movie plays out is still kind of makes no sense because he like he liked her when she was like a very passive sweetheart at the beginning of the movie. But then she's like, now I'm a dominatrix, and he's like, actually, I like this because I don't think you like her.

Right Well, it's like it's like, now that my friends are around and we're wearing the same outfit, now they can respect that I like you, Sandy. So it's fine if I show that I like I Just like, I don't follow the logic at all. Yeah, right, when you're about to not be in that social situation too, Right, right when it doesn't matter, and but no, they're they're

like double down. At the end, they're like, we're never gonna leave our hometowns ever, we're always gonna, We're gonna, which is like fine, but also just a very aggressive ending message to the movie. I think, okay, isolating the music and taking it away because to me, they're like the song and dance numbers. And this is coming from someone who doesn't like musicals generally, those are the best

parts of this movie. If you take those away and just like examine beat for beat the plot and like the different like character arcs and stuff like that, this movie makes no fucking sense, Like and it's it's like it's a it's a badly written story. Just like there's no lesson that anyone really learns. There's no growth demonstrated, which is so weird because there's so many characters who are like edging on learning a lesson and then they

just don't. Yeah, like you said, like it seems like things are being set up for again, Like yeah, the setup of like Danny Zuko being a prisoner of his own toxic masculinity and like it seems like he's going to have to learn how to break out of that and like grow past that, and then it just doesn't happen, and he just keeps like forcing himself on Sandy and mistreating her throughout the entire story and then complaining when she doesn't respond if you like, stop embarrassing me, like

or French, she is going to choose her own life path. But then an angel comes and is mean to her. So then she goes and graduated high school, which it seems almost like the theme is going to be anybody can pass high school because that's on the announcements at a crucial time, and it's like kind of reinstated, like stay in class, you can pass. And then that doesn't really seem to end up being meaningful. I feel like I felt for Frenchie has such an incomplete story, But

I like Frenchie. I like that she's like trying to do her own things, trying to figure herself out, and then she fails once and Frankie Avalon so mean to her. He's just so great outfit, though no customer would go to you unless she was a hooker. Like just again, I was just like a yikes, that line, that line a disaster. And then on top first of all, um I know it wasn't of the time, but I thought

frenchice hair was cute. But the pink, the pink. I was like, Okay, you just have to move to two one and you're going to be the most popular girl. You're gonna be the most popular thirty year old in school. But even in that song, I feel like it's implied in one of the lyrics that she should go back to graduate high school and then not get a job and kind of be a housewife, where he basically says like, you're not cut out for a job, so go finish. First says, go finish high school and you can join

the steno pool. He's like, you can't be a hairdresser, but you could be a stenographer. But then later he implies that she couldn't hold a job and she's just not cut out for it. It's so sad every time that scene it the way that that song is set up, at least in the movie, I you always think that the older waitress is going to be singing to Frenchie and that she's going to end up being the fairy godmother. If I ever staged with this show, I'm stealing that idea.

That's so good, I always like, because it's always she was like, well, I don't know. I was like, Oh, she's about to turn around and it's going to be sequence and she's gonna tell Frenchie how she's made it in her life. And then but then it's just like, oh no, here's here's a character we've never met and we never see again, telling her she could never hold

a job, like you know, poor French. There's also I mean, we touched on this, but the one of the other pink ladies, Marty, we touched on how an adult man praise on her and apparently tries to roofy her, and that just gets completely blown past and played off as a joke. In the play, he is scripted as going around the dance feeling people up. That is a part of the stage directions in the place that he's like watching people dance, and then he is occasionally like copying

a field horrifying. It's funny. Sexual violence from old people's funny lious. It's because it's like in or they like it was a simpler time. I'm like, I'm pretty sure people were also doing that in ninety eight, so maybe it was just at his hands. Slithered down and rubbed one of the girls across the ass or nonchalantly trying to quote cop of Field is in the stage direction. Uh.

Interesting note on Marty. In the play, she is explicitly engaged to the marine, and then she has a song about it, and then they've changed it in the movie so that she's in penpal relationships with lots and lots of men, which is more of a comedic beat and

not a song beat, and has also been used. I read and watched a few arguments as to why this is a highly feminist film, and one of the points that has made is that these women don't seem interested in domesticity or having babies, are getting married, which is less true in the play because Marty is engaged and I guess she seems like a little bit more like she's living in an exciting like because she has multiple men in her life that are across the sea, but

it doesn't seem like they have career interests either, So I don't really think that that argument has a like to and on. I think it makes sense to me in like the framework of like what second wave feminism seemed to mostly be, where it's like still very like it.

I feel like second way feminism in particular kind of really enables a lot of like rape culture because because it's like it rejects domesticity, it encourages women to, you know, at least on paper, um like have sex with whoever they want and like get a job if you want, like have more freedom. But in a way that almost like endorses all this gross behavior from men and framing it as like no women are allowed to enjoy it.

You don't have to pretend that you don't like it because you're approved, And it's like almost I don't know, it's I'm telling you I don't like it, Yeah, exact exactly. I'm like, but what if? But what if? What if you meant it? Like there's also like a during that beat when she's like, oh, like I'm dating a Marine and a whole bunch of other guys too. She puts on this robe and she's like, yeah, Bobby got it from me and Korea, and then I forget which one

it is. But someone's like, you're not dating a Korean, are you? And she's like, no, he's in Marines, So it's like, of course I'm not dating a Korean. You stupid, Like Okay, so there's there's like, yeah, there's that racist joke. There was like the like little homophobic moment at the dance I'll look inna you Eugene. Yeah whatever, Yeah, and then there's just like a ton of I mean, and again,

this is like the most basic criticism of Greece. I don't even want to harp on it, but like, the amount of like rape culture in this movie is so wild. It's like that's that's all of the T Birds just just like their character. It's barely worth mentioning. But like the I mean, what is worth mentioning? But it's like this has been already mentioned and a million times by

a million people. But like the lyric, dude she put up a fight and it's like yeah, that's like God, the debate, I mean, it's like at this point it's like, yeah, that's rave culture. I don't know why it's an argument this. I'm there are certain like arguments that people are never sick of having that it's like can we just can we just put it to rest? It's obviously a very

rape line, and um, I don't like, what's the argument, right? Well, but yeah, all the T Birds, I mean that all the tea birds are are in a prison that they have constructed them. Well, like again, there's a moment that I'm like, oh this this could be fun or there could there could have been more commentary on this where Knnicki is trying to ask Danny Zuko if he'll be

his like driving buddy. So I don't even know what He's like, you will you be my shuck in in command for thunder borderline like a romantic moment only sort of makes sense. What's happening. I don't know what he's asking it, but he's basically just like will you be there for me? Bro? And will you be my second? At Thunder Road? It's like do you want me to be in the passenger seat? Like what are you asking? Anyway?

And so he didn't you also didn't understand that because I was like because Danny zo like react, so he's so thrilled. I'm like, what the what? What's the question? Does that mean you'll fill in for me in case I get my head bombed by a car door and I'm unwilling to raise? Is that what he's preparing for?

I guess like can you be my study? So weird because like Danny doesn't even know what he's asking it first either, but then he's like, oh yeah, and then they like so once you realize and get embarrassed, yeah, they hug and then there's like this nice, tender moment of like platonic male friendship. And then they realize what they're doing and that they're like you know, grease or guy friends are also right there watching, So then they

pull apart. They start like you know, coming back, slicking back their hair and like resuming their like you know, macho persona, and like, can't we talk more about that? Like why can't the movie explore that more? And then but it's just like this fleeting moment they really cannot explore. They cannot male friendship. I wanted to go back to the Pink Ladies to Jan because there's a there's a strange thing happening there, and I didn't even realize what

was happening until like halfway through the movie. So basically there's a scene at the diner where she starts talking to one of the t birds and I truly have no idea which one it is. Putsy the blonde guy right whose character is Roger, and the play and Roger is also supposed to be fat, so there's supposed to be two fat characters, and then the movie there's one fat character and no fat acts and actually no fact

that was so confusing. Okay, so what basically what happens here is that jan is talking to Petsy and they start kind of like flirting and connecting, and Putsy is like, I've always seen you as more than just fat, and she's like, oh things, and You're just like what what did what what are you talking about? Because Jan, that is not fat, not fat, the actor is not fat.

But then when I went back and rewatched the movie, I realized that she is apparently supposed to be coded as fat because she is wearing baggy clothes and she's always eating. Yeah, which if I didn't notice that on the first watch, and then I had to rewind when it hit that point, I was like, what was this signal to us in anyway? But it is. It is in the way that they like, like, you're like in the way that she is eating sometimes, because right, because like,

if you're fat, you're always eating. That's what the movie, which is like the laziest plot point in the book. Also the fact that in the play, they were that whole implication that like fat people can only date other fat people, Like that's another exhausting like yeah, there's three times more jokes, so oh no, yeah, it's it's pretty bad. I guess I'm bad that those aren't included like in

the movie. It was just very jarring, especially especially because then it's like the sad thing where she when they say explicitly that this is supposed to be a fat character, and then you're like huh, and then she implies that she's been like starving herself and she's been like dieting, and that now that she's dieting, a boy likes her,

Like you're just like fuck. And then at the very end, when there's like the whole like carnival dance sequence, she's in like a form fitting dress, and I think it's the implication is, oh, she's lost weight. I think that that's how the actor looks there. That's just how she's always looked the whole time. I was just like I could not even begin to wrap my head around what

the intention was of any of that. But I was like, I think the movie is trying to tell us that this character was supposed to be fat even though the actor is thin, but we're supposed to think she's fat because she's eating all the time. I was just like, what choice is this? I was so CONFA, that was a very confusing plot point to take in. I mean, that's I vaguely now that you say that there's more

jokes in this stage show. That kind of brings a bell to like productions of it I've seen before, which is also just like, especially when you're like often casting kids in that show, incredibly cruel and fucked up to do. Yikes, Um, that was weird. I thought her like I didn't know because I was like, there are all these like stock characters, and there's a wide I'm like, the most I can kind of say, for like, there are different types of women in this movie, but it's just kind of like

a lot of different types of female stock characters. Yeah, it's archetypes. It's not there's a wide provide range of archetypes for in this movie. I thought that she was at first, I was like jan is a. I went a for a direction like, oh, she's wearing glasses, so the movie wants me to think that she liked school, But apparently that's not what I was to think. Oh, no, I think wears glasses. Who wears glasses? Marty? Oh she has the horn from glasses at the beginning, Yeah, she

has glasses in the first scenes. I was like, got it, books, But I was wrong. I was smarted by a different thing. Don't they make me look smarter? No, I can still see your face. Ye. Hey, here's something though. The mechanic at their school who helps Knicky fix up his car is a woman, Mrs Murdoch. So do think she's the shop teacher? I guess I think so. Yeah, she gets a matching outfit, but that's not a role that a woman would traditionally play as like a shop teacher, like

an auto mechanic, especially during that time. So I was like, okay, that's something. Yeah, that's something. That's something. I liked her outfit. I just I love all the outfits, all the outfits. Cannot argue with them. Um, I just have a couple of other really quick just again, like the promotion of rape culture that this movie likes to do a little gloss of really quickly. Um, there's the I think it's

which I forget which tea bird it is? Again, they all just sort of blend together for me, but one of them is like looking up a girl's skirt on the bleachers, and like one of his friends does the absolute bare minimum to like stop him and call him out on it, but it's too embarrass Petsy, It's not to stop it from happening. It's ok because he got caught. Yeah, yeah, okay.

That makes just go like a um. And then there's also a moment where it's like during or after the Summer Night's Song, where Sandy has said how great this boy was that she met, and then Rizzo says, oh, you know, this is supposed to be true love, but

he didn't even lay a hand on you. Sounds like a so like the girls, unfortunately, are also kind of like have been conditioned to buy into this rape culture idea that if like a man isn't throwing himself on you and assaulting you constantly, he must not like you. I think it's also connected to Gracie what you were saying earlier about how like that is kind of like what is supposed to make this movie feminist for its time, is like, oh, they're not prudes, so therefore, like that's feminist.

When you're like, no, this could actually be encouraging some pretty like harmful. It's so I don't know. Summer Nights is the wildest song of all time because it's so catchy and I love it so much. But it's like they're just it's just like people singing in this like cell of gender normativity that they've created. Yipes. Yeah, Well,

does anyone have any other thoughts? Um? Should we talk about chaw chaw our Only she's not explicitly a character of color in the play, Okay, but then she's kind of our only character, Like that's on our only speaking character of color. I think I thought she's a Italian. Oh, she's supposed to be Italian in the movie too. I think based on the last name. I read a whole bunch of criticism about her character from that standpoint. Okay, yeah, because I I know that the actor who played cha

Shaw is Mexican Italian. Yeah, I'd like to know more about the criticism around it, because that whole I mean, the way that that character is treated at every stage is I mean, she shows up, she is immediately a villain. She's one of um, you know, Danny Zuko's discarded women. But what what is? What is some of the criticism

around around that bend. You know, it was it wasn't like a super in depth article, but it was pretty much just you know, they refer to her um I forget which is the plane, which is the movie, but they refer to her chest hair. At one point in

the play they call her a gorilla. That and ends in the movie where like she gives because she's like sort of dating crater Face sometimes, I think, and she like pulls a little necklace out of her like cleavage or something like that and gives her like a little charm or something and gives it to him. And then one of the pink ladies is like, oh, she just pulled chest gave him some chest hair or something like that. Oh I missed that line. That's yeah horrible. Yeah, it's

it's worse than the play. But we could talk a little bit if we want to about women are kind of mean to each other. Like for it being an explicit clique and group, there is not a lot of supporting each other's wants and needs going on. Even among the pink ladies there especially mean to each other, Like and they're supposed to be friends, they're pretty mean to each other. Marty doesn't keep her secret and like even like the principle is really mean to the office administrator.

Oh yeah, yeah, I had. I had a few notes about that as well, where it was like there is no support within this group that we're being presented as, like oh, look at like visually they're presented as being very close with each other, but they can't talk to each other. Like Rizzo is like kind of drowning in her own like shame and insecurity, and she can't communicate honestly with anybody. French. She doesn't tell anyone that she's dropping out of beauty school because I guess she doesn't

like trust her friends enough to share that information. She only shares it with a waitress who immediately leaves the scene. Like that made me sad. I was like, wow, no one has Like everyone is very isolated for a group that we're supposed to be like rooting for as best friends like that, and and then and then Sandy too, where they immediately except for Frenchie who doesn't really who does who also joins in too bully Sandy when it's convenient,

but they immediately isolate Sandy as well. And it's again it's like there there is. There's not even really an attempt at a comment on it where there's no yeah, there's just never any resolution, Like it's just like and that's just the way things are. Women get jealous of each other and they're catty and they're mean, and that's

just what they're like. And meanwhile men are horny and it's like, yeah, we gotta yeah with with with no attempts to even try to explore like what the context for any of that might be, or like it's it's the thing we talked about all the time where it's like men have seen women being mean to each other.

They can't imagine why that would be, but they've noticed it, so they're like, well, women are just mean to each other, and like not stopping to say for a second that it might be because our patriarchal society means that women have to compete with each other for the very limited

resources and opportunities that are ever allotted to women. But men are just like, nah, it's probably because women hate each other because they're all petty, right, which, like this movie would be I think like able to tackle if it wanted to to. It's like I don't mind seeing like teen girls in conflict with each other. There's a lot of movies that do that very well and like have it makes sense and you understand the argument and like, but this is this one just just presents it as

like this is just what happens. It makes me say they're also alone, Like they really are so like in terms of like emotionally and like who either are able to open up to. I can't even really think of two characters that I'm like, oh, there's a strong bond of trust and affection between these characters. Like no one can be their authentic self with anyone else in the

entire movie. It's really I don't feel sad. It's trying to be critical of a world in which everyone is so busy performing their assigned genders and fitting into society that look at these cool people. They're on the outskirts of society and they aren't doing that, but they're also busy performing their alternative versions of gender identity that they are doing the exact same thing as their peers right exactly. So it's really depressing. As a god boomers are they're

hurting so much. Yeah, yeah, like I just no one can be themselves in this movie. Because everyone is so so focused on performing for each other and rejecting people for arbitrary reasons. And I understand that that's like a pretty authentic adolescent experience for a lot of means, especially like in the seventies, especially in the fifties. You know, Like again, I keep having having to remind myself, like this was all stuff from decades and decades ago, and

therefore we can't have high hopes for it. But if you're gonna explore the like turmoil and pain that like a team goes through with like trying to figure out their identity and like behaviors that manifest because of like their internalized misogyny or because of their you know, the prison of their toxic masculinity. Like, then again, I think the bottom line for this movie is like it starts to try to make some arguments or like make some commentary,

but never there's like absolutely no follow through. Mmma. That's how it gets solved in the end A booget boogety boggety boget cheap we do well well hell like hell, everyone is so trapped except I mean, if I was Sandy, I would be thrilled to be you know, flying into the sun and burning to her risk, Like at that point, sure, why not? Clearly no one here is going to ever learn a goddamn thing. I do. Like when when Frenchy

is like men of rats, No they're fleas on rats. No, they're a me bis on fleas all rats, and then she says the only girl a guy can depend on is her daddy, And I'm like, like, the only man a girl can depend on is her daddy, which no, thank you, unless she at least has a good relationship with her dad. Yeah, I don't have an emotionally honest but apparently she can't because she didn't tell him that

you know, about any beauty school thing. She only tells and she has to, Like French she has to make someone up to have a conversation with anyone, and that person also bullies her. Maybe yeah, maybe Frankie Avalon is her dad, and he has so many children it's probably true. I know I'm supposed to know who Frankie Avalon is, but I truly have no idea. It's okay, thank you so much. He's not in the best early nineteen sixties b to writing movies, Like if I was to recommend one,

I would say watch The Jama Party. His characters also really mean in those movies, Like you're supposed to like him and want him to be with a net, but he's an asshole in all of the movies and he's terrible. God damn it, Rats there abase on Rats. There's one theory that I wanted to bring up, and that's, uh, the interpretation that the reason Rizzo is so glib about her pregnancy being a false alarm is that that isn't what happened. And and you know, she kind of she

has a line. The movie is so different than the play, but she has a line after Patty runs by giggling at her and Sandy tries to be nice, and she's like, you think, I don't know what people are saying about me, right, and that could be just that she's pregnant, but then she I don't know. I think that's a fun interpretation. I think it's an interpretation that has sort of been concocted after the fact to try to make it seem like a more feminist movie than the filmmakers intended for

it to be. Like, I don't think that that's the movie is intent is that she had an abortion, but if you watch it with that in mind, you're like, oh, yeah, you could totally see that. That's that's, at least in the performance, an option of interpretation, And that does seem like something like that feels kind of aligned with Rizzo's character, Like she deals with her problems on her own and she doesn't ask for any help or support that she

might actually need. I mean, that's that's interesting, I kind of I mean that plot point would make more sense than just being like just kidding. Yeah. Well, she says she missed a period, which that seems severe, and the play she's just five days late, which is not that big a deal, right, I missed a period, Yeah, is a little different. And then she's like, turns out it was a false alarm and that could be a lie.

I want Risso to be able to talk to someone that isn't via just bullying the girl closest to her. Rizzo's also trapped in this very strange everyone it's toxic feminine toughness. Yeah. Yeah, it is like she can only express herself but listen to hurt people. Hurt people. It really is true, Rizzo. I just yeah, and then yeah, it's like the women don't push back like it's weird.

It's like the pink ladies seem like aware that they know of the double standard of like girls are s if they have sex, guys are amazing if they have sex. But then they still slut shame each other anyways, almost in a way that's like it strikes me as like a little coping mechanism of like, well, no one's ever gonna, you know, not shame us, so let's also slunch shame each other, like if you can't beat them, I don't know,

I want to see these girls down. Let's yeah. The last thing I wanted to bring up was just there's always this um when I was just looking into, like I was trying to look into, like what does like

a teenager right now think of Greece. It seems like for all of the many many, many many reboots of Greece it has happened that have happened, it seems like teenagers kind of don't aren't very receptive to the movie now and they buy in larger like yuck, like I don't you know, they have no nostalgic attachment to it um and don't seem that interested and so as recently

as like a couple of days ago. Um, I guess the BBC like played Greece on like one of their larger channels, and there was like this big Twitter backlash of like stop showing this movie on t BE we

hate it. Like there was a really big like everything about this is like misogynist and gross and it scares me when there's only white people in a movie, like teenagers do not like this movie and good, like great for them, but then they're still but they're still making a lot, so it's like there's a little bit of dissonance there. And then Olivia Newton John was asked to comment on this last year, which is like, well, this usually doesn't go well. Um, and it didn't. It didn't

go that well. Um, yeah, she was. She was asked by The Guardian of like, you know, like Greece has gotten all this feminist, you know, criticism over the years. What do you think And she said, it's a movie. It's a story from the fifties where things were different. Everyone forgets that at the end he changes for her too. There's nothing deep in there about the me too movement.

I agree with that last part. Uh, it's just a girl, she said, It's just a girl who loves a guy and she thinks if he if she does that, he'll like her, and he thinks if he does that, she'll like him. I think that's pretty real. People do that for each other. It was a fun love story. And I see what she's saying there of like it's a it's an extremely goofy movie. Don't take it too seriously. But it's like it's such a famous I don't know.

I feel like that's like basic media literacy, Olivia. If people are beat over the head with the message of your movie, it's impactful. And so, yeah, she's fine. And I also there was there was like a lot written about how her career changed in a very sandy ish way after Greece came out, where she had she had like done some She had released a couple of successful albums before Greece, but they were more kind of like

they just weren't like explicitly sexual songs. They were pretty like just pure songs about love of blah blah blah. And then after Greece came out, they kind of pivoted her image to be like really sexually driven. And so in the early eighties there's like let's get physical and her next album is called Totally Hot, and like her image was kind of pivoted in a in a sandy ish way. That's all I got. Life imitating art maybe, Um does this movie pass the Bechdel test? It does?

It does. Right near the beginning, Sandy asks French, she do I look okay? French she? Frenchie says, sure, you look good. Sandy says, I'm really nervous, you know, and so Frenchie says, you look terrific. Yeah, they like they have. I don't know. I mean, it's like there there was more exchanges between the girls in this movie that passed

than I thought. What They spend a lot of time talking about guys, like a lot of time, and then they also have they also talk a lot about just like a little more interesting, like how they feel they're perceived by other people. Um, but they usually are talking about how I don't know. And then a lot of the passes are them bullying each other? Yes, but they do. Like women are talking a lot in this movie, more than I like remembered their being. There's a lot of

conversations between women. It's just sometimes they're just bullying each other. Yeah, so you know, not ideal, but they do talk to each other. Uh, let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism. I will have to give this I think like a point five. And again, like everyone's gonna be like, but it came out a million years ago, like you have to consider the historical context, and yes, that is true.

But I also feel like this movie started like it felt like it was equipped to like make some commentary.

And if you're going to do like a fifties nostalgia story and you have hindsight of what the fifties were like, and you you want to comment on that, like we've said, it feels like the movie feels equipped to make some of that commentary because it starts to and then it just completely bails on it halfway through or not even like it builds on it after like twenty minutes, and then it's like, well, wouldn't it be fun if we just keep seeing Danny Zuko mistreating his love interest and

then until she decides that it doesn't actually matter to her, until she stops running away from him, and then and then puts on some other pants and changes her entire personality and that's what enables them to be together. Question Mark, It's just yeah, obviously it doesn't um hold up by

our standards today. I do see some of the arguments that it would have been perceived as, yeah, like second wave feminist at the time, but thankfully we have moved past that and progressed beyond that at least a little bit. So um yeah, even with all the you know, the historical context in mind, I have to give it a point five and I'll give my nipple to Rizzo. I feel like she was the most interesting and complex character, and she she deserves better, and I wish we had

gotten more from her and for her. Stucker Channing is also so great. I'm always I'm never not so jarred by how dirty she's done by that whoever illustrated the title credits, so just not how she looks. And they made they shrink her mouth down to like five percent of its size, and then they're like, oh, you know how Stockard Channing has a tiny mouth, and you're like, I don't know that, No, no, I don't know that.

Very weird. They also make Sandy look like just a generic animated princess without any of her flaws caricatured at all, and like her face would be easy to do that too. It's not like she looks just like a far away drawing of Cinderella. Yeah, there's some animation choices in the beginning as much as like that. I love the animation style of that sequence. Um, but the way they draw some of the actors is questionable. Um. Yeah, I guess

I'll go with point five as well. I feel like the I mean, I I see the second wave feminism arguments there, but it also ends up being like, oh, women are allowed to have sex now, they're still going to get shamed for it aggressively by each other and

by everyone around them and assaulted constantly. But I mean, after revisiting this movie, I feel like the even the fact that it's like a movie made about the fifties in the seventies, that almost makes it like I view it a little like less well historically, because it's like a movie made in a more sexually liberal, progressive time as nostalgia for when that wasn't true, and in a way that is completely uncritical of that era. So I

just it's just all very weird. Um. And it is definitely like extremely impactful to this day, to the point where it's like, Helen, you don't even know if you've seen it, because it's so like maybe you have movie you haven't. It's so like ingrained into American culture and also just kind of pedals this like false image of what the fifties were, which we're like, not really a good time while also trying to like not do that but then like still doing that. I just yeah, the

period choices of it just are very weird. Um, but the music slabs, the outfits are incredible, and they're like, the performances are good. It's just man, so much potential. I like that they start saying things. But then there's also that definitely that vibe that we talked about sometimes of like uh, man, like an adult man desperately trying to write a teenage girl and completely like it was an attempt. Yeah, I don't know, some half formed thoughts,

but and and it's still fun to watch. I don't know, but I'll give it a have nipple for our purposes. Um. And also just I mean it goes without saying that. Literally At one point I was like, is this not an integrated high school in like canonically? But there are There are a few black students at the school, but it's they don't even have grounds. But it's so aggressively white that I looked it up. Yeah yeah, yeah, not

even to meat. Yeah, it's so that's also, I mean, it's like I understand where the teens are coming from. That's a very jarring thing to see and not have addressed in any way. I don't know. Romanticizing is just like a bad idea. It's'm gonna give it, give it half a nipple, and I'll also give it to Rizzo, but I'll give it to Vanessa hudgens Is Rizzle. Oh, good grief, Gracie, what about you? Rizzo too? Rizzo again? That was supposed to be a princess switched again that play.

I'm gonna change it. I'm gonna give my half nipple to Rizzo, but Rizzo the rat, the muppet, Oh my gosh, rat different. My strategy is, I'm going to give out some nipples and then I'm going to take some nipples away. Please love this. I'm gonna give a nipple to the opening sequence because it's fabulous. Um. I have this little addition subtraction thing I've written that involves taking away nipples for soccer Channing's drawing, but it adds up to the

same amount, and I'm gonna go past it. I'm going to give a nipple to look at me, I'm Sandra d because out of the context of her making kind of making fun of a real person. I think it is kind of a feminist moment, at least the messaging of that song. Taking out of its context, I'm going to take away a nipple for looping together Danny pressing himself on Sandy, and they'm going to take away a nipple from the t birds showing patties panties to the camera. Yes,

I forgot about that. Yeah, that's an assault we didn't touch on. I didn't even remember them all. Yeah, that's bad. Um and whatever. I'm going to give it a nipple. I'm gonna give it a nipple. Give it a nipple. I feel like if I give it less than a nipple, my dad will feel sad. Understood, well, Gracie, thank you so much for being here, Thank you for having me. This is awesome. What a fun summer night we've had. UM. Where can people follow you online and plug anything you'd

like to plug? Um? I am at Gracie Gillham g R A C I E G I L L A m Um. I have a movie circle circling around on Lifetime Channel right now. I don't know when it's airing, but it is called Stolen in Plain Sight. Um. You can look out for a movie called super Host coming up pretty soon for that. Yeah, awesome, Thank you again so much for being here. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at becketel Cast. You can go to our Patreon ak Matreon at patreon dot com slash pecketel Cast.

It's only five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes plus the entire back catalog of our bonus episodes. This month, we're doing to Amy Oh wait, what are we calling it? She can do it all month? What can she do month? It's doing to Amy Adams. Yes, I'm going to call it Adams June. Okay, Adams June, which, of course we are observing in January. So Amy Adams Drama Arrival, Jeremy Renner okay. And then Amy Adams Comedy Enchanted,

I'm excited, she can do it all. And then our t Public store t public dot com slash the Beechtel cast for all of your March needs. And with that, let's get getting the convertible. We're fine into the sun from room. By bye.