Frozen II with Ali Nahdee

we approach election season. Uh. We know that it is not safe for everyone to participate I r L in the middle of a pandemic, of course, but it is really all about finding ways that you're able and comfortable to participate. There's been a number of incredible mutual aid

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have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the beck Del Cast. Okay, Jamie, do you want to start this episode? I was going to, but then I couldn't remember a line from any of the songs? Do you remember any of the songs? They've been stuck in my head and it's very annoying. Um, Okay, I got I've got one. I got one on. This is gonna be good. On this episode, we are going into the

into the no disrespect to Idina Menzel. They just make her belt so much, They make her belts so through so much plot in this movie. Truly, All Off doesn't make me laugh. But that see and what he just started, I'm there with you. I'm there with you. So this is hello, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Everyone. Um, this is our movie podcast, in which we examine film through an intersectional feminist lens. Spoiler alert, most movies do not

fare well. We took inspiration from the Bechtel Test and that, of course, is a media metric designed by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel that for our purposes, requires that two people of any marginalized gender who have names speak to each other about something other than a man. And as we as we just talked about in a Twitter exchange today, they should also both be on screen. In general, that

is helpful. If they are on screen. Yes, if it's a disembodied voice, perhaps, um, maybe that doesn't count sometimes, you know, I mean it's a case to case, but generally, you know, it does seem like in most cases it's the least you could do and ties into the whole idea of visibility involves being visible. I bravely tread. Wow. Incredible, thank you. So today we are covering Frozen two. We have a wonderful guest with us. She is the founder of the A La test on tumbler. It's Ali Naughty. Hello,

I welcome. How's it going good? How are you? Thank you so much for being here? Oh, thank you for inviting me. I think, uh, it's funny because you guys invited me based on my threat. I think on Twitter about pocahonas and I was like, you know what, I'd rather talk about something I enjoy. I don't enjoy pocon Frozen two, So what is what is your relationship with Frozen two, with the Frozen franchise all of that. So, um,

I hated the first movie, which is hilarious. UM. I think it's because I was not in the target audience. You know, it certainly wasn't made for me. Um. But all of my friends really liked it. So I went and saw it and was like, really, this is what you guys were talking about. You know, it wasn't very impressed. UM. So I when I found out about a Frozen two, I was like, I don't know if it's going to

be any good. And then the more information that came out about Frozen two, I'm like, oh, tell me more. So then UM, I saw it and I did not expect to like it as much as I did. It easily is probably one of my favorite Disney movies. Now it's like, Wow, I I can't wait to talk about it in this podcast because Wow, there's just so much to unpack, especially with an indigenous lens um that I don't think too many people have talked about. Yeah, not from what I found in any like articles written and

things like that. So yeah, at best it's been it was like a passing reference in reviews, but nothing that was actually really examined. I don't know. It was kind of like surprisingly difficult for a movie that came out last year to find like solid written indigenous perspectives on this movie, right, And speaking of tell us about the Alt tests. So I came up with the alt test

um when I was living overseas. So I lived in Finland for about two years from like sixteen to and around that time was when Standing Rock was happening, and um, I was so far away anyways, from my family and my friends and everything, and from any really indigenous Native American person, you know, because there are indigenous people in Finland, but you know, and I remember watching like the the live streams and everything that was going on in Standing

Rock and feeling, you know, terrified that this could escalate into like a third wounded knee, you know, but also wondering, you know, what can I do? I can't physically be there, and I'm in another country. You know what's something I can do? Because I'm not a I'm not a teacher, I'm not a historian, I'm not really an activist in that sense. And I remember this film that I watched before I moved to Finland. It was made it's called Rhymes for Young Ghouls, and it was so different from

any indigenous movie I had watched before. The main character played by Davy Jacobs. Her name is Ala, and I just saw so much in that character that I had never seen before in a Native woman on screen. You know, she was played by an Indigenous actress. She was on a reserve, dealt with a period in time in Canada

that was very traumatic. That is not discuss usta at all about residential schools and you know, forced assimilation and you know, and I went into the film Rhyme streeng Goals expecting her to die, really because that's usually what happens to Native women. You know, that's unfortunate. But she survives all of it, like all of it. She's the

main character. She wasn't some white guy's girlfriend. She didn't end up raped, she doesn't get killed, I mean, and she faces some brutality and some really heavy scenes, but she makes it to the end, she survives. And it was just that film really truly touched me. So when I went to see other um movies, you know, other indigenous films, and I specifically was looking for, you know, Native women and their roles in these films, I noticed

how many were not like Ala in those regards. So in order to kind of contribute something, you know, in light of standing rockets, like you know, there's gonna be a lot of Native people who are going through a really tough time right now, maybe this is something fun or something a little lighter that we can kind of talk about. Because I noticed it hadn't really been discussed in a lot of feminist circles when it came to

film and media representation. So I came up with a La test, and like the Bechdel test because it was inspired by it. She has to be an Indigenous woman who is the main character. And by indigenous, I mean she could be Native American, First Nations Sammy, Maudie, Polynesian. I knew, you know, any of those indigenous groups, but she had to be the main character who wasn't a white guy's girlfriend just does not fall in love with the white man and doesn't end up raped or murdered

at any point in the story. And by murdered I also mean like killed or dies you know on screen. And so many don't pass, but the ones that do, you know, the test is like, hey, you know, check out these movies, and you know, the test also has its limitations because you can pass the LA test and be a great character, but you can pass a LA

tests and not be a great character either. And there are several characters who don't pass who are like yikes, but there are several who pass who are actually really awesome. So it's just a conversation starter. Not necessarily if you don't pass, you fail and you're awful. It's just right, which is how we approach the Bechdel test as well. So yeah, I'm so glad that that conversation is being

helped along with this test though. Thank you for inventing it, Thank you, Thank you to Jeff Barnaby for making the movie and Davy Jacobs for being a LA because wow, change It's on my list of things to watch. I, um, yeah, we should cover it on the show Come Back. Yes, oh absolutely, And we um not long ago learned of the alt test and mentioned it for the first time on a on a recent episode that we covered on the Witch with Guest Janisch meeting, and she had been

the one to make us aware of your tests. So the Witch, the Black Philip Goat, Yes, I saw that. I saw that movie in Philt and it scared the hell out of me because I lived her next door to a cemetery. So I'm like, oh my god, uh movie that certainly does not pass the tests. Gracious, it is horrifying. It is a terrifying one. Yeah. So Jamie, what is your relationship with Frozen two? I hadn't seen

it yet. I mean I came to the Frozen franchise by being a substitute Jim Teacher, which I think I talked about on our last Frozen episode where it was like the only way to get a child to do what you needed them to do was to say that you would play let it go if they did it. And in a few span of years, Um, so I I really only know the franchise as it pertains to

this show. Really I didn't see those this movie. Um, when it came out, the conversation around this movie, it was like, um, kind of strange and like, I feel like what I had generally heard was like it's not what you expect and like and it wasn't what I was expecting either. I it was I think the more I researched this movie, the more I liked it. There was when I on first viewing, I was kind of confused.

I and I still am confused in some ways, but um, I wasn't quite sure what they were trying to do and like what history they were referencing. And once I had a better idea of the history that they were referencing, it made way more sense to me. I wish the movie did a little more like work and letting you know what they're talking about, But I, yeah, I I don't know. It's it's I have so much, we have

so much to talk about. I really hoped that my insight, like my lens into this movie offers some clarification because I knew exactly what they were talking about. Was just like wow, so oh I'm excited. Yes, I'm really excited. I mean I knew nothing about particularly indigenous cultures in

this region. I knew less than nothing. And then the more I found out down to like the very specific reference of a damn being destroyed, and like the center of a huge conflict is like a reference based in his it was Disney was doing better work than I expected them too. They did homework, imagine. UM, so I'm excited to talk about it. What about you? Caitlin went through his read with this franchise. UM. I saw Frozen

two in theaters when it came out. I see most Disney movies in theaters, including the live action reboots, which are never good, but I keep seeing them anyway. I don't know why. Who knows who likes those movies. It has to be someone. They all make a billion dollars, but like I guess children um. But other than that, like I tend to like most Disney properties and franchises against my sometimes better judgment, and against despite knowing how

evil of a corporation Disney is. But when it comes to Frozen, I can kind of take it or leave it. I wasn't attached to the first one. The second one I liked better, but I felt like the story was pretty muddled. I like the songs, though I like the animation overall, I thought it was pretty good. I definitely liked the second one better than the first one. I leave the first one. I mean, now, you guess you can refer back to our first episode about it if

you're a listener that hasn't heard that one. But it's so like feminism one oh one of our time that it was a little bit like alright, Disney, like we're making very very slow progress here, aren't we? Um right there? Like what if sisters like each other? And instead he does that? And in little bits where they're like this time the like male character is obsessed with the idea of marriage and you're like, I don't really know what if that's a helpful subversion, but sure I have a theory.

Have either of you seen um, the nineties dub of Sailor Moon, Yes, yes, you know how Sailor you're in us and Sailor Neptune we're cousins because they couldn't let them be gay. Yes, I think Anna and Elsa are sisters and the first movie, I'm sorry they were super gay and I'm like, I have two sisters, Like, we

don't act like that. Well, there is there was a lot of discussion about Elsa's character being kind of queer coded or at least like interpreted as queer by the queer community, or at least certain members of the queer community. So um, and some coverage around I think some of the there's always because it's such a huge franchise, there's always a lot of criticism and I think pieces surrounding it.

And there was another influx of I think pieces questioning why they won't explicitly say that Elsa is a queer character. Um in Frozen two as well, and they but yeah, it's kind of the classic Disney like she's single, she's single, and it's like, can we let her be queer? The answer with Disney as always is um, yeah, anyway, well let's should we dive into the story and then from there, let's do it all right? So we opened on Elsa and Anna as children, their father Agner voiced by Jamie

Would you do the honors? Alfred Molina my king. It was very exciting to hear I think he has maybe the like one of the first spoken lines of dialogue after the kids are talking a little and then you hear like he is not doing a voice he is just speaking. Is Alfred Billina? Uh? And I was like,

oh my god. And then you see, I was kind of a little bumped at the how they animated him to look it kind of looks like the like what it's like king does a picture of like what is it like called in video games where it's just like the stock player, like if you did google image cartoon king. That's kind of what the king was like. Sure, I think he should look like King Alfred Molina, but but yes,

it was exciting. Also, he's married to Evan Rachel Wood in this movie, which you're like, all right, right, who's like my age? She's like, you're younger than me or something, and offered Milena's in his sixties the magic of animation.

So King Agnar comes into the children's room and tells them about this enchanted forest whose magic was protected by powerful spirits of air, fire, water, and earth, and it was also home to the north Aldre people and the girl's grandfather king exactly, he had built the north Aldre people a damn. But then things took a turn between the two groups and the King's men were attacked, or

so we are led to believe. But a mysterious girl saves young are during this outbreak of violence, and the fighting enraged the spirits, which vanished, and then a powerful mist covered this forest which has been there ever since, and the girls on it and Elsa are like, oh no, will the forest ever wake again? And the parents are like, I don't know, And then their mother says, only at Holland knows Um, which is a river that is said

to hold all the answers to the past. I will say that the children's reaction to this very violent story is a little insensitive. Uh. They're like, awesome story. Yeah, that's true. They're like, oh, cool story. And then it's you're like, was that a cool story? Um? For them?

It was. Then we cut to Elsa and Anna as adults, and Elsa here's this kind of angelic voice singing somewhere in the distance, and it seemed to be calling to her, and she says, hm hmm, maybe I should follow it into the I'm gonna stop singing because I truly have the worst yes, which I cannot do give the people what they want. And then there's this um kind of elemental disturbance because also woke up the spirits. I keep wanting to call them the Earth, wind, and fire and

water spirits. It does every time you hear it, you're like, you sort of are feeling like you're watching an episode of Avatar the Last Airbender, and in this story, Elsa is Avatar. Elsa is also the Fifth Element starring Bruce Willis. There's a lot of movies Corbon Dallas. So okay, so the spirits have been awakened and everyone has to evacuate Erondel,

the Kingdom where on A also live. And then the stone Trolls from the first movie show up and their leader is like, hey, um, there there's some wrong from the past has to be corrected. There's some truth that needs to be uncovered about the past. So Elsa I was like, okay, we have to go to the enchanted forest and find the voice and figure out what happened. So she Anna Christoph and all Off and Swen the Reindeer, all of her favorite characters um set off toward the forest.

After a little bit of traveling, they come upon what I can only describe as the shimmer from Annihilation. Um, what the you know, like the shimmer from the movie Annihilation. But they have to kind of that's also in this movie, and it's this dense mist that they have to pass through to get into the enchanted forest, and once they're inside,

the spirits show up. They were starting to reveal some clues about the past, some of the memories of the past, um Elsa manages to tame a couple of them, and then suddenly a group of North Aldra people and a small number of Aaron Delian soldiers show up, including Sterling K. Brown.

Oh my gosh, I had no idea he was the voice of that character until I watched the six part docuseries on the making of Frozen two on Disney Plus, which was a waste of time, but to watch, but that is it was helpful and that I learned, um that Sterling K. Brown one of my crushes. What is in this movie? We both have a crush in the movie,

Yes we do. Alfred and Sterling cute. So all these people show up and they've been trapped in this missed the whole time, which we find out was like has been over thirty four years, which I was I was like, and then I was like, wait, how older Anna and Elsa are we do we know? Are they over thirty? Is that is that legal? In a Disney movie. I don't think so, because the king their dad was a

little boy. Oh so they're they're okay, classic Disny. They're like, no, no, no, no no, I can't have a woman over twenty five. The thing is because even canonically in this movie, six years have passed, because they were repeatedly referencing for reasons that I sort of found to be a bit much, but they kept referencing the amount of time between the first Frozen movie in the second one, which is six years. But somehow Elsa and Anna are still twenty the same age.

Question mark. All these people have converged in the midst now and um all off gives us a nice little recap of the plot of Frozen one for for everyone that's there are multiple boys in this movie where I'm like, okay, you're obsessed with the first movie. The first movie was fine, I don't want talk about it wasn't just like whatever, like it's so, but then yeah, Josh, God has to recap the whole damn thing, which I did kind of enjoy that part. K Brown Um reacts very funny when

he's like, oh no, pretty cute. So then the North Algi people are like, by the way, we are innocent. We did not initiate this attack. We would have never attacked first. And then a guy who on a recognizes as Lieutenant Mattias voiced by Sterling K. Brown, who was their father's guard, says, well, we wouldn't have attacked first either. It wasn't suspicious of the colonizer. Really exactly that. Okay, this movie is very funny to me because they have to go on this and this whole journey to uncover

the truth about the past, and it's so quickly. It's just like, just look at the variables. You have indigenous people and you have white colonizers, and a wrong was made. What do you thing happened based on all of history? Liked they probably they probably learned a very you know, whitewashed version of history, so you're right, they're full on. I was hoping, I mean, you know, it's not going

to happen because it's like Disney. But by the end, I'm like, oh, this could be a great chance for Els and Anna to become like anti imperialists and really like be like abolish the monarchy, which of course burned down their castle. At the end, it's two indigenous people as the king and the Queen. So it's like, well, I mean, captain colonizers in hell mad about that. I'm sure, I hope so God, I hope right, because it is Christophe indigenous as well. Yeah, okay, yeah that's what I thought.

So so then the fire spirit attacks all the people, the little Yeah, it is a little charm mander. They're very key. They act like puppies. And then Anna and Alsa figure out that the girl who saved their father's life in the forest that day many years ago was their mother, who they also discover is north Auldra, which

means that Anna and Elsa are half north Auldra. Then a North Auldra woman, Honeymaron, tells Elsa that in addition to air, fire, water, and earth spirits, there is a fifth spirit that acts as a bridge between humans and the magic of nature. Which yeah. So then Elsa and Anna head north to find the voice that's been singing to Elsa. They come upon a shipwreck, these shipwreck that killed their mother and father, and in it they find a map to Ata Holland, the river that is said

to hold all the memories from the past. Um, because it's real, they discover um not just legend, and they figure out that their mother speculated that Otta Holland is the source of Elsa's ice magic. So Elsa sets off for Auto Holland, and not wanting to put her sister in danger, she kind of sends on a an all Off away on this Like this is one part of the movie where I was like, oh my god, she sends them down an icy slope at like five hundred

miles an hour. I was like, she's gonna accidentally murder her sister. She's like putting her in even more danger, right, which also happens in the first movie, Like she she conjures up that giant like snowman that like almost kills Anna. She's constantly putting her sister to give for like the Big Sisterhood franchise that could me Elsa sometimes really goes in on. I'm like, I am also not a huge on a fan, but I wouldn't push her down a hill. A big sister absolutely would. But hear what a drink

that was. I was like yeah, And then spoiler alert, all Off dies not directly because of that, but he dies later. He literally that was such a I was just like, alright, plot, I guess it's I guess it is the end of the second act, isn't it? And he was It was so vague. He was like, my flakes, my magical flakes. I don't want to go mr like I do. It's I don't know. We're obviously not the target demo, but it just like it couldn't be clearer

that there's going to be zero consequence for this. So it is kind of funny to watch him like, not my flakes, and then it's like, we're gone. I don't

know his flakes are gone. He dto oblivion. Meanwhile, um Elsa tames the water spirit, which comes in the form of a horse, and she rides it to Ata holland Um and then she sees all the answers to the past and discovers that her grandfather can Colonizer was like magic is scary, and the North Aldro people follow magic, so they can't be trusted, and that he had built this damn that he had given under the pretense of it being like a gift of peace, he actually built

it to weaken their land, and that it was him who initiated the attack against the North Aldro people. But Elsa has gone too deep into Ata Holland, and she starts to freeze. She's able to use her magic to send the memory to Anna. Anna is lost in a cave with all Off and then she, upon seeing the memory, knows what she has to do to set things right, which is to break the damn which will flood Arundel.

And then that's when all Off dies because Elsa is dying in her magic is feeding something about his flurries age. And then and then Honest sings a song that I thought was like very impactful and I liked about how like she is acknowledging the like deep, irreferable harm that her ancestors have done. She wants to do the next right thing, and you're like, oh, it's really coming into her own I've been waiting for this character to have like more agency forever. This is so exciting. And then

two seconds later she gets rescued. But stuff I will say, though not to go too deep, but my mom passed away in September. So that song Honest sings just like it's so hard, you know, as far as doing the next right thing and everything. I'm like, oh, I love this movie, but it hurts me so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, that was my favorite song in the movie. I think show Yourself as Mine, but that was my second. I like Kristoff's like eight cheesy eighties rock ballad my favorite.

It's really it wasn't bad, but it was there, you know. It's like kind of strange, much like Kristoph's entire plot in this movie. It's just kind of I don't know why he necessarily even needs to be there. Couldn't be a more pointless song, but it is like, I don't know, I'm just like I like to hear Jonathan Grops saying I'll take it, I guess, but it is it doesn't have a place in the movie. I don't know, question mark.

So then Anna lures the earth giants who are roaming the land towards the damn and they destroy it, which unfreezes Elsa because history has been made right and according to the movie, and this causes all the water to cascade towards Arundel, but Elsa manages to kind of get ahead of it and freezes it to save Aarondel, because again she is the fifth spirits of the element. She is the d s X mocking A, the d s X mocking I was inside the house the entire time yep.

And then the mist lifts from the forest and everyone who was trapped inside is now free. Elsa and Anna reunite. There's much rejoicing. Anna has made Queen of Arundel, and then Elsa decides to join the North Aldra and look after the forest. And that is the end of the movie. Let's take a quick break and then we will come right back to discuss, and we're back. Ali, is there anything that jumps out to you right away of like

stuff you'd really really like to discuss? Oh? Okay. So for those of you who cannot see me, Um, I'm Anishinabe and I'm by racial. The reservation of my family is from is the Wapple Island Reservation in Canada, and my mother is a white woman and my father is an Ishnabe. So I'm by racial. I'm very white passing.

And as someone who did not like the first Frozen movie, I was so stunned that Elsa especially suddenly became this character that I personally kind of felt represented by as a white passing assimilated Indigenous woman because although my father is you know of a darker shoe, I guess, a darker skin tone than I am. He was assimilated because his mother and his auntie were residential school survivors, so they had their culture denied to them. You know, they

couldn't speak their own language, they had no culture. They were taken from their family, and um My and mother and her auntie, her sister had to actually leave the reservation, like they ran away to Michigan and that's where we live now. And you know they she married a white man who was my dad's father. So, um, in order to survive, really, I mean, you have to assimilate, especially back then. I you know, this was during World War Two,

this was you know, all throughout. I think grandma was born in like nineteen seventeen, I think, and she died in nine So this is an entire century more or less of you know, you cannot really embrace who you are as an Native woman because you can be killed, you can be imprisoned, you know. And um, I think her name is i Dona, the else's mother. You know, that character really truly spoke to me, you know, as an Indigenous woman, because the concealed don't feel don't let

them know. Thing that Elsa you know, sings about in the first movie isn't just about her magic now, it is about her identity and her family and her bloodline. And it's like, you know, her mother knew that kind of pain she must have been going through because she was she couldn't go home. You know, she may not have ran away from home, but she could never return. And this was her life now. And if the Aaron Delian people didn't like the Nothalgra people, you know, she's

not going to announce that, oh on Northaldra. She's going to keep that to herself and raise her daughters the best way that she can, you know, and that would be to assimilate, to look like, you know, the oppressor. I suppose, so Elsa really come into terms with this. You know something, it wasn't just the magic. It wasn't just keeping that part hidden inside. It's like there's something deeper than that. There's something that you know, I feel

out of place. I feel like there's a disconnect. I you know, I may look like these people, and my sister may you know, be able to live among them a bit easier than I do, but you know, I feel like something is missing and I want to know what that is. And for her Disney to make it indigenous heritage, like, oh, this is your family history, this is your mother's people, these are this is your community and your culture, and that sense of belonging and healing,

you know, that's really really powerful. And uh I am. You know, I'm white passing. I'm trying to reconnect. I have I up until, like, I don't know, I want to say, a couple of years ago, I didn't think I had any surviving relatives on my dad's side, you know. I thought we didn't have any cousins. We didn't have any aunts and uncles. You know, we had no idea. And recently I discovered when I went to uh the reservation for pow Wow, that there are so many different

you know, cousins and relatives and stuff like that. And they're like, oh, you know, I brought my family tree and they're like, oh that guy he's cash, Oh that one he's nutty, that one, you know what I mean. And I'm like and then they started looking at the family tree and it's like we had common ancestors and common relatives and stuff. So that reconnection to family and to culture when it has been like forcibly taken away

from you and denied to. I mean, Frozen Too really spoke to that part, you know, for me anyways, So it was so, I know, I really like this movie. This is I mean, this is honestly giving me a whole new perspective on the themes that this movie is speaking to. I mean, going into the movie, I was honestly confused at the beginning, like I understood the choice

they were trying to make. I was like, I don't know, you know, it's impossible because you know, like I've certainly been brought up on such a warped version of history and I'm still in the process of trying to unlearned ship and not just unlearned stuff, but then learn the

correct version of you know, what actually happened me. It's like a really powerful and ambitious theme in this movie to show that to children, to show that like the version of history you're presented with is very likely not accurate, and that it is like kind of your responsibility in a way to to seek out that truth and to

find it. And then on top of that, uh, is something that I think I was like in the middle of the movie, I was like, whoa, this is like a pretty like bold choice for such a gigantic franchise. The only villain in this movie is their past, Like there is no and the first one it's who is that guy? Though, like you know whatever hans right, and and so in the first one it's like they are

subverting it by the twist and blah blah blah. But like in this it's like their heritage and they're like their ties to colonialism is the villain of the movie. It's like a it's an evil that you I guess you sort of see through, like the memory of the grandfather.

But for the most part, it is just like something that they need to reckon with, and that is I mean, that's holy sh it, especially because like when when Anna learns learns the truth about how her grandfather initiated the attack and that he had built the damn deliberately to oppress the indigenous people and how you know, and honestly something like well, that goes against everything that Aaron Dell

stands for. And it's like, well, sure, like Aaron Dell, my masquerade is this like you know, righteous place, But like, no, that's not how colonization works, right. I think you can also be kind of viewed as like a meta commentary on like Disney properties as a whole of like, here is this like magical kingdom that you've always been presented to this like very whitewashed magical place like and what is being erased and what is being miss taught to you?

Because that is I mean, that's been Disney's bag for a long fucking time. Is teaching you and glorifying and making making it profitable to show you false versions of of history, usually American history, that it's kind of a free for all with them. I think the thing that actually surprised me um when I first saw Frozen two, because uh, I'll send it to you guys on Twitter. It was like my live tweeting responses. It's like, all right, guys, watched Frozen two for the first time, and here's my

reaction in real time as I'm watching it. You know, So when they're singing that one song at the beginning and it's not Thanksgiving but it is Thanksgiving, you know, like they're having a harvest feast or whatever, and I'm thinking, I'm watching it, I'm like, are they really having Thanksgiving

in Sweden? Because you know, like because and then at the end of the movie, when they show Captain Colonizer and he's all like, we're gonna invite them in peace, and we're gonna see what they're you know, how many there are and what their strength is. I was like Thanksgiving, because Thanksgiving was not a happy feast. It was a massacre of indigenous people. So the fact that Disney did that, I was like, Wow, that never happens. And you know

what I mean, like never, that never happens. And that was so it was subtle enough where I think a kid may have not quite connected the dots what I did. Ye, Yeah, I think one of the I guess, okay, maybe I'm like, I don't know, I'm probably always asking too much of a Disney movie. I kind of wish that that they had just let if they if we already knew, you know, and they and the movie goes out of its way to say, well, there's no one in Arandel right now.

It's just it's empty, it's been evacuated. I kind of wish that they had just flooded it. Is that is that? Yeah, Like symbolically, I'm like, maybe that's a little game of Thrones of me to to want, But but I mean it fits that I kind of wish they had just said,

you know, fuck it. I think UM with that one, because a lot of people felt the same way, and I didn't just because I was thinking, you know, problematic element of this movie is that, you know, they blame it all on just this one specific person, you know, and not like an actual vermint, like the one guy

who wanted to be the colonizer. The people for the most part didn't really seem to know what was happening, you know, because the girls didn't even know who the Nothalgil really were anyway, So I feel like if they were, you know, the person who already did this horrible thing is already dead, you know, he gets killed in the battle anyway, So that part is already like you know, avenged.

But it's not just that, you know, it's you have to not only correct history, but you know, put in the work to make sure you know, the harm that's already been done can't be undone. But how you go forward with it is the important part. So you get rid of the damn which is causing all of this trauma and all of this destruction to the environment that directly still hurts the indigenous people living on it. And to destroy or the damn and then flood out Aarondel

and destroy it. I feel like maybe the spirits were like, you know, this is only gonna make those people hate us more that their queen just destroyed their home, you know. So yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'm like, I really don't think these people are going to be all that okay with oh, but you know, the colonialism is like, yeah, but now my house is underwater, Like it's gonna make ship worse, you know, probably and build more touch and

it's like that. So it's like, all right, so we're gonna put you on the throne instead, and they're gonna love you, and then I'm gonna stay here and we're gonna build relations and there you go, happy ending. It's very simplified, but it's a kid's movie, and they handled it a lot better than they didn't Pokehona so god ever, So do you feel overall that the representation of Indigenous people and indigenous culture was handled responsibly and respectfully in

this film? So disclaimer, um, the northalgia of people are based off of an existing group of indigenous people, the Sami people. So I'm not Sammy, so I can't personally, you know, say like, oh yeah, they did great. Um. I did speak to um. I'm going to use his full title here, okay, so uh Sami activists and vice president of the Sami Council. His name is aslach Holmberg.

I actually UM talked to him when I was in Finland because he's Sami and uh, he and members of AOSDTTANU, where this group that were organizing this moratorium in that opposed the Dano River fishery agreement in northern Finland. So basically the Finnish government was trying to deny salmon fishing rights on Sami territory and he was, you know, an activist at that time, so he was on like a council,

you know, Sami council. He also did the voice because Disney did a Sami dub of Frozen two and he did he did the voice of the dad Alfred Molito. Know it's him well legacy, but he said, you know, he's biased of course because he worked on the film. But he said that the Sami people were very much involved with the representation of the nothalgia people and overall,

you know, he did like it. I've got other because I asked other Sami people on the A La test what they thought about it, and it's been kind of a mixed bag. You know, there's elements that they didn't like so much and then lots that they did. My personal take, you kind of run the risk of when you create a new tribe of people, you know what

I mean. Like, for example, you know, there's this one video game I forgot what it's called, but they made up a completely different Native American tribe and it's like, Okay, you couldn't just use an existing one to tell your story. But that's because it was set in America frozen not so much. It's like, oh, it's this magical territory and it's not real, so we can create people who exist within it. And there's enough similarities where you kind of

know what we're talking about. But you're not doing like the Twilight Poconist thing where you take an existing group of people and being like, oh, they're magical, Oh they control the elements and stuff. It's like, no, the Twolute people do not turn into werewolves, you know. The Sami people do not you know, work with giant rock monsters and fire spirits and stuff. But the North algier people can, and I like that the Nothalgia people were still just people.

They just knew how to interact with the land, So that I felt was more respectful to what Indigenous people are because we're not mythical, magical creatures, you know what I mean. We just have a connection to the land and the territory because it's a part of us. It's not just we're not on top and then the animals are beneath, and then you know, so on and so forth. It's you know, a web of connection and we have

our place within the ecosystem and within this world. So that's better than you know, oh I'm you know, and the only person who is is Elsa and that that works out because she's just you know, special. It's not because oh I have this power because I'm Nothalgra is like, no, it's because you're she's an outlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hollywoo has a long and troubling history of describing magic and mysticism to non white people in a way that has

really negative connotations. For example, there's the magical Negro trope, there's like the mystic Asian trope, there's like mystic Indigenous tropes. There's like all of these things that we've seen again and again in so many different movies, so and by and large magic like the magic is being used to assist a white character or to somehow aid their storyline and to other the non white character or characters. And I think the only real complaints that I would have

isn't necessarily the nothalgia people. Some people say that they wish that the women would have had a bit more agency, which I think is fair. Christoff, who is an indigenous person as well, I feel it's kind of a missed opportunity as a Sami character. The Nothalogra are based off of the Sami, but Christoff in the ript is described as a Sammy boys specifically saw me. Okay, yeah, and it's like they could have done more than just oh

he saw me. He likes reindeer, okay. You know, but like I don't expect them to go into like a deep you know, like basically turning the Sami people into like a costume like they did Poconas essentially, but you know, it would have been nice when Anna discovers that she's indigenous as well, that she and Kristoff could have bonded over something like that, you know what I mean, Like, I feel like that was a missed opportunity where I'm glad that they kind of cut Christoff out of the

movie because it is predominantly Elsa's story, as it should be. But it's like, man, they could have really, you know, talked about this and bonded over that. And it's like, obviously Anna must have had some insecurities given her last boyfriend and what he tried to do. So I don't know if there's any reason to fall in love with someone you know and actually bond enough to marry them, it could probably be over that shared experience, you know.

I think it would have been nice, I think for the audience like as well to be kind of reminded that Christoff is an indigenous person, because I think that, like there's not a lot of work done to really tell you that, and in a movie that is constantly reminding you what happened in the last movie, uh, in a way that is not always helpful. That would have

been a helpful thing to be reminded of. And again, yeah, like like like you're saying, is something that could be you know, a very valuable bond for them when there is kind of something left to be desired for, like why are we talking about their impending engagement that we know is going to happen by the end of the movie, So much like that would have been a really good element one one thing that I would love your perspective on.

And because I was just sort of um, I do wish that the North Aldrin people that we meet had more to do and had a deeper characterization because for characters that are introduced, and they are I think played by white actors, which again is uh, I mean why right, especially when they had hired several consultants, um Sammy consultants who maybe they weren't trained actors, but they could go and find some trained actors to cast in those roles.

But but even on top of that, I think that most of the North all drink characters we meet are there in a very surface kind of way where I felt like, for the most part, especially with writer and Honeymaron, that they were mostly there to just give information and encouragement to a character that we already know. So like a writer is like, what's up, Oh, you have a

romantic conflict? Let me be in a scene about that, and then he's in a scene about that, and then he's kind of gone, and then Honey, Marin gives Elsa I think. I mean, it's a it's a cool scene between the two of them that definitely pushes Elsa's character forward, But I just wish that we knew more about her and that she didn't just exist in proximity to Elsa. H I agree. You also see a character whose name

is Elena. She seems to be I think the leader. Yeah, yeah, she's I think she's like this is a Matrichal society because it seems to be implied that she is the leader.

She is voiced by white actor Martha Plimpton, but yeah, she she isn't given much to do either, aside from kind of just delivering some exposition here and there, because it doesn't I don't even remember seeing her in the flashback scene, so it's not even like you know, she was, you know, specifically shown like, um, it's this name Mattias or Mattias Matteis. It could be anything another character who

we learned nothing about. Then, yeah, because she hasn't shown really in the flash vac scene that I remember, so it's not like, you know, they could have drawn back on that and given her a bit more to do. Yeah, couldn't she have been there during the attack that was instigated by the Aaron Delian people, and like couldn't she offer some perspective on it like that kind of thing? But um, yeah, we don't see anything. Yeah, I was

hoping that. I mean again, it just seems like a missed opportunity where having those characters there is so much more than your average dizzy movie is going to do. It's a valuable opportunity to give them the opportunity to prove by their own perspectives in text. But most of what we learned has to like appears in like snow flashback. And I feel like in a movie where there's a lot of snow flashbacks, why not just let them share

their own history? Like why could Helena not be more meaningfully involved in in I guess educate, like giving Elsa this education that she so you know, it is so desperately wanting, like kind of touched on that like a

little bit. And I do appreciate that when Elsa does bond with the Northalogia people, it is specifically with the women, you know, like at the end she's holding Honey Marin's hand, but she's holding Helena's hand, And you know, I think they kind of like gave that impression, but I wish they would have given us more. Yeah. Yeah, it made it more juicy. I just but yeah, because it's it's I don't think that then, nor the Aldrin characters fall into the Disney tropes that we are I mean honestly

kind of expecting them to fall into. But there's still I just wish that yet they had like a fully realized character. And I mean, like none of the none of those three characters really have an arc. They don't. I mean that we are able to track at least. Yeah. I also wanted to say really quickly because I was looking into the updated queer readings of Elsa and Jennifer Lee in fact addressed this because there was I think

we talked about this on our first Frozen episode. There was a huge fan movement and like a million petitions to explicitly acknowledge Elsa as a queer character. It was a gigantic millions of people were involved saying I think

I think I signed the petition. I don't remember, uh, But in any case, it was such a large response that Jennifer Lee, they who wrote and co directed this movie, had to acknowledge it, and so she told a New York Times writer that the reason she doesn't explicitly say that Elsa is a queer character in this movie, and this is wild. She says that she has put every Frozen character through the Myers Briggs test, and quote it really came out that Elsa is not ready for a

relationship unquote. So she, like yalaxy brained, avoiding the fact that Disney just doesn't like is deeply unable to acknowledge any non heterosexuality. But the I was like the Myers Briggs test, I just was like, my god, Jennifer Lee stretch. Further, I wonder if people ship Honeymaron and Elsa because they have a little scene together. You ship them? Yes, yes, I do because they have that like tender scene together where they like the sting the lullaby and it was

really beautiful. Frozen three, Let's learn more about Honeymaron and Rider and Yelena specific I mean everyone, but I'm like Honey, Marion and Elena. I want to know more about them.

I agree, well, it would it would seem as though the reason that, unlike other Disney properties, and unlike other Hollywood films in general, the treatment of Indigenous people is again normally abhorrent, it would seem as though in this movie it is handled more responsibly and respectfully, because even unlike the first Frozen movie, the filmmakers of Frozen two hired a few Sami people as consultants on the film.

We've already heard one of their perspectives, which is wonderful. Yes, Um, it seems by all the accounts that I found, the Sami people found that it was a positive collaborate ration. They were happy with how the movie turned out. There was some level of dissatisfaction was how Indigenous culture was represented in the first Frozen movie. And um that the

Sami people felt that there was course correction there. And this is relatively new, I mean, very new for a Disney to actually do their homework on portraying cultures that are not straight up dominant white American Disney culture that I think I remember hearing about it. Most recently in regards to Mowanna as well, there there was an entire advisory council formed to make that movie. It seemed like

with generally positive result. I know that people have notes, but like generally positive for for a Disney movie, and it's so I mean, it is still frustrating to see that It's it's mostly you know, like executives that are on the other side of these advisory boards and the fact that there is still such little progress on um, you know, making even even though it's a very positive thing that you know, FROs and two is you know,

portraying indigenous culture and like really making strides and attempts to course correct on mistakes they've made. It's still, you know, a overwhelmingly white crew on this movie, is certainly an overwhelmingly white cast on this movie, and it's i mean, still work to be done for sure. I actually have a quote to so um so slate dot com writer I think his name is I'm going to destroy your name, sir, I'm sorry, it's InKo King. I think Ko King. He

compliments and criticizes the film's depiction of reparations. Specifically, he said, we have so few fictional portrayals of what post colonial restitution looks like that we should be careful of how

we depict it. But he also said that it's admirable that fucking Lee even attempted a story like this, and even though it could have used a little more thinking through introducing the concept of nationalist myth making to children, particularly in a princess movie, that the general public has no expectations for other than to sell even more else and ohl Off dolls this holiday season is pretty commendable.

And yeah, I agree, it's like, you know, for sure, you know it could have used a little bit more I guess thinking through, like he said, But then you have to wonder how many people, Probably the higher ups are like, no, you don't get to say that. Oh, that's way too much. You know, we don't want to change anybody's minds, so we just want to that's too far sell product. Um, let's take another quick break and

then we'll come right back and we're back. I'm I'm curious Ali on your take on this, which is that so the North Aldra people they are designed to I mean, I think they are distinctly not white in their design. Now we find out that Anna and Elsa are half North Aldra, they look quite very, very very white. And while it is I think positive that in the Cannon now they are half North Aldra. Um children watching this movie know that these characters who they know and love,

uh now have the knowledge that they are indigenous. Um. I think though, it's so helpful to see visibility on screen, especially of main characters, the characters who you have, the dolls of the characters who you have, the sisters of all that, all that for them to you know, Like, the characters are so designed to look such like Western beauty standard blonde, blue eyed, very fair skin in their esthetic, and I guess it just would be nice to see

more visibility and representation on screen of characters who don't look like that. It's very clear that this was and I think some of the criticism around this that I think it's pretty well placed, is that like the decision for Elsa and Anna to have indigenous roots was made between the first and second movies. This is not in the foundation of this story. It's almost like a redicon in a where Yeah, yeah, because I think I remember.

I don't know if this is like unfounded or not, but I remember there were rumors circulating that originally Frozen two was supposed to be uh Sammy Center. I guess, like the characters were supposed to be Sammy, and then they changed it because I don't know if it's tumbler, so who knows how true it is. But but I do remember some discourse surrounding that, so I think this was almost like, oh, well, let's try to do that again this time, but you know, how do we do that?

And uh. But at the same time, you know, while I agree, I'm like, you know, we have a billion white princesses, not just in Disney but in like all kinds of media. It would be nice to see, you know, someone who wasn't blonde haired, blue eyed, pale skin But um, I don't think I've seen too many stories where the white passing indigenous person, you know, is actually given a story about reconnection and you know, finding that culture and that identity again, So I do appreciate that, and you know,

there was obviously thought put into it. It wasn't like, oh, a long time ago, this relative that I don't know was not so she's one sixteen, all right, So I do um. And I think it's also you know, like with Sami people, and really you know, the Arctic region of indigenous people's there are many different skin tones, so there are lots of very fair complexed Sami people like

Asla Holmberg. You know, unless you knew him personally or knew of him, you probably just would have assumed he was finished just from his complexion and his hair color and whatnot, as opposed to Inupiat or Inuit people you know, who are very clearly, you know, a little bit darker but still lighter skin because of the region. So I definitely to an extent by that. The mom I think her name is, I'm gonna pronounce her name along. I

think it's a Dona. But the mother, you know, being lighter complexed but still being Nothaldra but looking a little bit different from the other ones, you know, and then marrying a white man and having biracial children. You know, I can understand why Anna and also wouldn't look as ethnic. Also, you know, not to get too deep because it is Disney, but genetics sometimes skip Like well, I mean, my dad is very dark and me and my sisters are not.

And then my sister had her daughter who is darker than us and is very clearly Indian, and so like, how did that happen? She's like one eighth It looks more like dad's daughter than we do. Interesting, how did that hippen, so, but I think I'd have to watch the movie again to see if there are other nothalogical people of various shades, I guess in various skin tones, because that also happens to, you know, within the community.

I was very I mean in in researching this. I mean, I have learned a lot in the past couple of days. I honestly was, um not aware of any history of the Sami people before I started doing the research for this episode, and the more I learned, the more impressed with the movie I became. Because I think I was also sort of like, are they completely fucking this up?

Or do I just not know enough about the cultures that they're referencing, but but learning about, um, the elements of Sami culture that they're referencing down to and we reference this a little bit earlier. But even the presence of a damn a colonial damn is I mean, I couldn't find an explicit, like, you know, someone from the production confirming this, but I guessing that it is referencing a controversy that took place between the Sami people in

the Norwegian government in the late seventies early eighties. It's called the alta controversy where basically the Norwegian government said we're going to build a hydroelectric power damn, like a power plant, UM that was going to affect um indigenous Sami land. There was a huge conflict UM. There was like sustained protests, there was violence, and the Sami people ended up losing that battle. That hydro electric damn exists, and I thought it was really like I learned something

which is great and also just um, that was more. Again, it's just more than I would ever expect from a Disney movie to make such a clear recent historical reference about um. You know. So it isn't like, oh, this is something that happened a long time ago, but it doesn't happen now. They're referencing something that has happened in you know, the lifespans of most parents who are seeing this movie and seeing that I mean, and learning that I thought was I was very impressed. I thought it

was really interesting. And then the clear I didn't know that they were clear, but it is clear references to the mythology connected to these cultures, that there is a clear precedent for the horse character like that is rooted in Norse mythology, and that's you know, and and Ali, you probably know more than me because you've spent time in this region. Uh, but like there was a precedent for that. The name Iduna is like a Norse mythological

name for the goddess of health. And just there were like details that I, you know, never would have known, but upon investigation that there there's also like a mythological president president. Oh my god, word precedent for for the stone giants. That is something that's also president in mythology. And yeah, especially comparing it to this is like I don't know why I felt the need to go down the rabbit hole of what a shitty dumb movie Avatar is,

the James Cameron one, but especially I liked it. I'll talk about that another time, but there I will promise. I was just like researching. I don't, I don't. I couldn't tell you why, but I was researching how much money that production put into really creating deep lore and really doing its homework in pre production, but in the finished product most of it is not there in any way,

like he should have written books. He should have called a Game of Thrones and written science fiction books and then waited until the technology was there, and then he could have made like an HBO c g I anthology series or something. There is like a star Trek amount of lore connected to that movie, but they don't use any of it in the movie. It's so frustrated. But that's so much is lost. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess they have five hundred movies left to rectify that situation.

But if we But I was impressed that Frozen two, um kind of you know, in opposition to that does its homework and you and it is very present and it's plot relevant and it's all I just I don't know, I learned a lot. And um. Also in the music which uh, there's a really good YouTube channel called Sideways

and yeah, their work is so good. They they do videos on usually about score music and film um, and they talk a lot about ethno musicology and like if a different culture is being represented in a movie, is it present in the movie. They do a great video on how Avatar kind of does not succeed in that even though they did so much work and then they didn't use it all the work they did great video.

It was Yeah, And which is another thing that it seems that Frozen two was successful at his um researching um Sami music and having it present, if not completely dominant, but very present in the score, which is great because I love the composers of of Frozen. They've got it. They're very impressive, They're cool. Congratulations to them for I've got two points to make based on what you just said. So the first one in the Sami music. Uh, I

always found that kind of strange. Um just that well, Okay, when I first saw the first Frozen, I think it's called vuali that opens up, you know that Nan nana hey n na na. So that was like my favorite song and the first Frozen movie. And it's a some a yoick um. So it's an actual traditional method of singing. And sometimes to my understanding, this is based off of video that Sophia Yanna did when she U came to

Standing Rock in Solidarity. Uh, She's sang a yoick and she said that it's vocables, so you don't you aren't actually singing words, you're singing sounds, and it's about the feelings that you have when you sing. So that way other people can join in and they're not really saying words, they're just joining in with the sound and the music for healing or for you know, And it was just strange to me that that is a Sami method of singing.

They have a Sami character in the movie, but the nostalgia people are the ones singing the yoik and they're not technically Sammy, even though they're based off of the Sami. So it's like, I'm glad they tied it in at least because they do sing it. But I'm like, um, okay, I didn't even make that connected. Yeah, that would make it far more offense. But since you brought an avatar, I'm just gonna touch on it for a second because it does lead to another point in Frozen two. So

when I saw Avatar, I loved it. But there was one scene in the movie where I was like, okay, uh, this scene can go one of two ways, and if it goes one way, i hate this movie from this point on. And I've been enjoying myself for like two hours, and then this happens, I'm gonna be angry. And it didn't.

It went that way, and I kept loving it. It was when the white guy tells Zoe's Aldanna that you know, they sent me a spy on you guys and screw you over and she's like, you knew this was gonna happen, and then goes to fucking x acute him and like freaks out because in any other movie it would have been like, no, I love him, you guys, please listen to him this and she's like, no, you're dying now, you know what I mean. Add Dale's x mockinma. He you know, survives because he's got plot armor, but he

proved himself before he can show his face again. So at least there's that, because if it would have went the other way, I would have been very mad because I'm so used to that narrative of the indigenous woman falls in love with the white guy betrays her entire nation, and you know what I mean, it's like yeah, no so and Frozen two, by comparison, there's a scene where Anna and Elsa are talking and Anna said, Yelena asked, why would the spirits reward Arundel with a magical queen?

Because our mother saved our father, she saved her enemy. Her good deed was rewarded with you. You are a gift. And I'm like, at first, I'm like, no, I'm not a fan of that mindset, you know, and Indigenous women deserve better than loving their enemy for the greater good, because loving the enemy has not stopped the enemy from

killing us. You know, it kind of goes into that Pocahonus romanticized territory a little bit, you know, white savior territory too, but you know, also using her power privilege to help her community rather than you know, make excuses and stuff. That's a welcome change. But I will say at the beginning of the movie, when they're playing, you know, with the snowman and whatever, and she's like, the kissing won't save the forest. The fairy queen saves the day. Yes,

kissing did not save the forest. Her parents loved each other, but their love wasn't enough. You know. It's like racism and colonialism wasn't solved just because he loved one Indigenous woman and it stayed. You know, the forest was still in danger, the environment was still being ruined, the land was going into chaos. And it doesn't take just loving your enemy to make everything better. You have to do

the work. And you know, the next generation is you know, you may not have done it, and it might not be your fault, but for the better of the world. Really, you know, you have to do something about it because sweeping it under the rugs and ignoring history makes everything worse. There was so much that we could go into about how Frozen two even goes into environmentalism territories as far as it's indigenous representation. But how long have you guys want to stay here where we we're down to hear

whatever whatever you have? Like there, I hadn't even Ben made that connection. That is God damn Frozen to that that it's building upon clear mistakes that Disney has been huge in perpetuating, and then you know, at making an attempt to course correct and do that's really impressive. In the first lines of the movie, before Alfred, Molina says a word kissing is not going to save the forest. Princess weeks from the Merry Suit, she did a video a Frozen two and she was all, like Anna said,

indigenous writes up. Damn Prince is one of her favorite people. We just we were just recorded an episode with her last week. She's awesome. Yeah. I've been following her since like early YouTube days. Really, what else I guess in regards to um in the more I guess uh like basic Disney plot that is present in this movie. I

honestly don't love it all. There's so much like I know that like Elsa and Anna, like they have to be together because marketing, but every Frozen movie really is just like Anna, get out of the way, Like this is Elsa's because Elsa is the better character, right like she she is always more motivated, She always has a

greater mission than on a duh. And so this this movie doesn't again where else's like by and then just like tosses on a down a hill and the movie does get better after that, but you know whatever for for for a franchise that is like Sisters, Sisters, Sisters, They're not together for a lot of this movie and there. But I did appreciate how their missions slowly merged, like I thought that that was that was well done, and that the way that they basically like receive this accurate

history is different. They they have different where it is both like you know, they have the holy shit moment of like this is our family's history. It is not what we've been told. But I did appreciate that they reacted in character, which which was cool to see. Uh. I I honestly feel like I know that we need Kristoph to come back because marketing, but like the whole Christoph plotline like was, yeah, what was that for? Yeah?

I didn't even mention this in the recap, but there's a subplot where he is working up the nerve to ask Anna to marry him, um, which it didn't necessarily add anything for me. I think they just they're like, well, we need to you know, he needs a reason to be here, so let's give him something to do. Um. What kind of what bothered me a little bit about this is that every time he is about to ask her,

something goes wrong. And I understand that's how storytelling works, you need obstacles, but the thing that goes wrong is always that Anna jumps to a weird conclusion that I feel had like potentially kind of something gendered there where it was almost like, well, she's a woman, so she's gonna have a wild overreaction about something where for example, like when they first arrived in the forest and he says something like, oh, you know, under different circumstances, this

would actually be a really romantic place, and then she says, Uh, different circumstances, you mean like if you were here with someone else, like she has just like Jos where it's like what do you where is this coming from? Anna?

Like and and this happens a few different times where she has this really like almost and I don't this is me maybe just like being a little cynical here, but I couldn't help but feel that they were They're like, well, you know, she's she's overreacting because she's a woman or something. I don't know. And I feel like I kind of worked a little bit better if they would have reminded us that, you know, or if she would have said verbally she's like, hey, I know I'm acting kind of nuts,

but my last fiance tried to kill me. I am married. You know. It's like, so maybe I'm not myself, but we're trying to have romantic moments and I'm like, oh god, what are your motives? Even though so it could have been that's kind of another like missed opportunity too of like like Anna would have very like she it would make sense for that character to have relationship ptsd um, but it's kind of like now we just kind of want Jonathan Groff to talk to the moose, which is

like I guess like it's a reindeer. It's a reindeer. I'm sorry, I got, I kept getting. I've have spent too much time in Maine. I wish I could take back every second. Um, but yeah, he like you know, it just becomes kind of this like you know, like him and the reindeer, and and that's the plot. And I will say, I don't mind that Anna wants a relationship, Like it doesn't bother me that, Like, I don't think that both of you know that every princess needs to

not be in a relationship. If that's what they want. It's pretty like established with honest character, that relationship is part of what her version of fulfillment is. I just it's just the way that this plot is written that you're just it's kind of dragging out kind of a non conflict because there was no point in the story where I'm like she's gonna say no, Like the stakes are low, very low. And then also the one like problem they kind of create for um, I keep calling

him Jonathan Groff. What's this Christoph? Uh? Is that like he is like concerned and that he is not enough and that like he you know, which is like a very real thing to tap into. But even and he references that in his song where he's like, am I good enough for her? She's so amazing all this stuff.

But then whatever conclusion he reaches is arrived at off screen because by because he disappears for a huge chunk of the movie and then he shows up at the end and he's like, I have resolved my personal demons off screen. Uh, and I'm ready to get married, and then everything goes fine. It also made me laugh that at the end where either of you, I'm like, maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention. But she's like at her like queen coronation ceremony, and she's like surprised

that he's there. I thought that was so weird. I think it was that he was dressed up. Okay, yeah, yeah, right, because like, oh you think he would like really be there,

he's all dressed up. But I also like that, you know, you don't have to assimilate baby, I like you her in your leathery And he's like, oh, I think, well, when when Kristof is on screen, especially, you know, for what Whenever he's there in like Act two and three, he seems to mostly be um saving Anna, who needs to be saved three different times in the movie um And this is something we talk about all the time in movies, where like women will be damseled and they

have to be saved by their you know, a man or their love interests or something. And I thought we were past all this with fro the Frozen franchise, but Alas, she has to be saved the first time when the like the fire Spirit is kind of wreaking havoc and spreading fire around, Kristof has to grab her and save her. She's saved a second time when she's luring the earth giants towards the damn and they're throwing their giant boulders and Kristof comes riding up on Spen and grabs her

and saves her. And then moments later she saved a third time when she's escaping and almost falls off the dam and Kristof and Um Matteias has to they both

they both grab Rhige. I found kind of frustrating because it was like that that moment where she's rescued comes right after I thought like the most effective moment for her in the entire movie, which is her singing this song like the about you know, wanting to do the next right thing, and then it's a very kind of lazy choice that is constantly made in Disney movies is made right after this kind of felt like a breakthrough moment.

So that was I was kind of bummed about that. Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a little bit of a deviation from what we normally see in that she is the one pushing the story forward and she is the one making the active choices to like destroy the damn and like she's the one who's initiating that action. Uh, and then you know there's destruction as a result, which

she needs to be saved from. But it's like, well, if she can do the thing, can't she also then like say herself or why why was it written so that she has to be rescued several different times? And just the idea that like having a relationship is directly tied to a need to be rescued and that which is inherent to every Disney relationship of like she can't be a fully like autonomous, capable person and just like

happen to want a relationship. I don't know, truly, did you guys know that the film well, of course the film is dubbed in Sammy, but have you heard the Sammy soundtrack? It is immaculate and it's on YouTube. Okay, I'm gonna do it right after we're done with this. That sounds great. Yeah, it is beautiful. Um. I did want to quickly touch on Matteias who again voiced by

my crush it's Starling K. Brown. This feels like a response that the filmmakers got and for the first Frozen movie being too white, so they introduced a black character. My main issue with that character is it's is we just again Other than the fact that he was present for this event that we already knew about, it just seems like a very and I mean, I'm I'm like beyond thrill that Sterling K. Brown is a part of

this cast. But as far as they wrote his character, it just it does seem a little lip service e on the part of the writers because his presence, like if you if you remove him from the script, nothing about the story, like nothing changes other than he provides a little bit of information when they first meet. But but it's like his presence is not extremely impactful in this story. All of gets more to dude, than he does write. Yeah, I'm not allowed to talk about a

lot that I UM. I didn't hate his song. I thought his song was rather I also enjoyed son. It was a cute one. So you know, there you go. Um. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I thought that the I know that I mentioned the environmentalist issues are element of Frozen two, and that is something that I thought that the Spirits were kind of a metaphor for. I don't think it was just like a magical,

you know thing. I felt like with the creation of the dam and then the attempted genocide of the nothalgia people, you know, and then sweeping all of that under rugs. When you ignore an environmentalist issue, you know, when you create pipelines or you create a mind or build a dam or whatever it is is on indigenous territory and then try to act like, you know, nothing's happening, it's all good. You know, things go bad. You know, the

earth actually physically starts reacting with fracking. You know, earthquakes happen with pipelines. The water, you know, is polluted, the soil is polluted. So I felt that elsa interacting with the spirits wasn't necessarily just you know, oh look how magical she is. It was healing the environment that is in chaos because of colonialism and because of the dam

and the damage done. So you know, and like that ties into again, you know, deforestations in lapland you know, the reindeer dying because of global warming and things like that. You know, So even that last scene and frozen to when the fog lifts and the main deer start running, you know, that's actually pretty impactful when you realize what's

going on. You know, in the Arctic right now, everything that Greta Thunberg and aslack Homburg and Sophia Yanok and all of them have been really preaching about isn't really preaching because you know, they live in the Arctic. They know what is at stake and the damage that's being done. And I don't think Disney, like maybe I'm giving them

too much credit. I don't think they wanted to go into Fern Gully territory where they're literally like Aaron Delians trying to chop down the trees and stuff and it's bad. It's more like, yeah, but the magic is out of whack because of something they did, so we have to do the right thing. And and the fact that, um, you know, like doing your homework, especially in a movie like this is so important and representing indigenous people responsibly.

Because this movie made one point five billion dollars, every child sees a movie at one point, like, it's the highest grossing animated like completely animated film of all time. I think the Disney remake of the live action reboot of Lion King Is is higher grossing, but it's like half live action half not, so it is like kind of in a murky area. But like as far as like a fully animated feature, Frozen two is the most

the highest grossing. I was truly sad that Frozen two, especially with how good it was, wasn't nominated for an Academy Award. Yeah, yeah, that was, but I didn't into the Spider Verse, so there we go. Yes, that was. That was my favorite movie of that year. I love that movie so much, and I just I mean, I love I love animation. Like they're into the Fier Verse.

Should have been a Best Picture nominee too. It's like people need to like especially now that um, you know, under the present circumstance, let's say the amount of animated projects are going way up. It's like people just need to like let go of whatever this like animation is just for like you can't tell a sophisticated story with animation, Like it's just so demonstrably untrue. Has anyone seen mo Wanna Wa Wa should have won? Wanta should have won

an Academy Award. Absolutely, Utopia one, which was cute, but Mo Wanna Mohanna was the better film. It was so good. Maybe cry Oh gosh, I'm never I'm not never not crying during Mohanna every two seconds? Um? Yeah? Any does anyone have anything else? Is there anything you want to specifically ask me? Oh? Well, um, what would you recommend aside from rhymes for young girls? What other? Because we're always on the lookout for indigenous media, especially when it's

you know, shows positive representations. Are there any other films that you would recommend? So the same filmmaker, Jeff Barnaby who did Brime Stream Goals, also came out with this awesome zombie film. It's on shutter It's called Blood Quantum and it is a zombie outbreak on an Indian reservation and the natives are immune to the disease, so they can't turn into zombies, but everybody else does. So it's kind of an allegory about colonialism, like should we help

you guys again? Goes what happened last time we did? You know what I mean. So it's your typical like I don't want to say your typical zombie movie, but you know, just what you expect from a zombie movie, but with enough of original twist where it's so good and it is really really good. That's amazing, that sounds so good. Yeah, and then there's um so some of them they start indigenous actors and characters, but they're not

all created by indigenous directors. I think it's important to specify, like, because an indigenous film would be you know, the indigenous writer, director, people behind the camera as much as in front of the camera. So Jeff Barnaby is indigenous, of course, and that's both of those rhymes. Three Young Gals and Blood Quantum are legit indigenous films, but films starring indigenous characters like mo wanna Uh. There's Whale Rider, which is I

love it? Yeah, I saw that when it came out. Yeah, yeah, that's Maudi New Zealand Indigenous people. Chris Air, who is pretty famous, uh Native American director did Edge of America, which is about a Native American um girls basketball team and all of them pass a LA test. It's like a whole ensemble, you know, of indigenous Native American girls

on this basketball team and they all pass. And Empire of Dirt Okay, directors not indigenous, but it's a movie about three generations of Indigenous women, the grandmother, the mother, the daughter, and them coming together and healing together and trying to like become a family again. And it's so good. It's on Amazon Prime Songs. My brother taught me. The director is also not Indigenous, but the movie takes place

on a reservation and it's very good. Then there's Leelo and Stitch, which Alisa from Gargoyles passes the ALA test because she's black Indian. Yeah. Yeah, I love a Lisa Maza anyways from Gargoyles, just because it's not in the past, it's not on reservation, it's not you know, in the some made up fantasy thing. It's just this badass black Native woman living in New York City, interacting with awesome creatures and going on this adventure and just being brave

and smart and hot top three qualities. Absolutely, and actually, hang on, is it is it over here? Okay, this is the sequel to the book, but Rebecca Roanhors wrote, she wrote Trail of Lightning, this one is Storm of Locusts. It's the sequel, but the main character is a monster hunting Navajo woman and post apocalyptic American Southwest awesome, and it's awesome like decolonizing sci fi. It is amazing. I'm halfway through it, so deeply recommend. Maggie Howsky is a

badass in every single definition of the word. And as for films that don't pass the test or stories that don't pass the tests but are still like worth checking out, there's a movie called Mina. It's the Inuit people meeting the new people for the first time, so there's pre contact, pre colonial. So this uh woman who falls um is kidnapped basically by Inuite trampers, I guess, and then you know.

The story is unusual and unorthodox, but it's got enough nuance and complexity where I can overlook the rape scene that happened, because which is handled better than it was in the Revenant. My leagues and I hated that movie. Yes, you're going to have a bear in your movie, it should be Paddington. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Gosh, well, yeah, thanks for all these recommendations. Or there's a lot too,

there's a lot to check out. I'm so excited. And then of course Avatar and Cora, you know, because the water tribe are Innuit inspired, and I really hope they hire an innuit actress for the live action series on Netflix. Yeah, that they don't, I'm going to be furious these be Shymeland again. The mess, So does this movie pass the Bechtel test? Is a lot the outside of friends and movies is they will never struggle with the Bechtel test. That's true, and it passes the Ala test as it

is a yes, yes it does. And then as far as our nipple scale, um zero to five nipples. Based on how the movie fares from an intersectional feminist standpoint, um, I think I think I give this, like I'm inclined to take a little nippleage off for the fact that Anna has to be saved several times. I think there is opportunity to include the North Aldre people who are

not Anna and Elsa more meaningful e UM. But the fact that you these characters are given this layer of being indigenous, you know, the discovery that they are half North Aldre is important representation for such a popular, lucrative franchise. So all the children who saw this now and especially Indigenous children who saw this, they have someone And for you, as an adult, Alley like you connected so much with this movie. That's why representation is so important. So there's

you know, I think there's some pros and cons. There's there's some minor weaknesses for this movie, but I think that it does pretty well. I would give this I think, like four nipples. I think a lot of two the issues that we had with the first Frozen movie that we discussed at length on that episode. UM, I feel like some of those things are still kind of present, but I think that they do course correct some of it.

And the fact that you know, it's a story about two sisters who were raised in a European kingdom whose ancestors were colonizers, and then them having to answer to the injustices inflicted by those ancestors on an indigenous population, and that's an interesting story. But at the same time, I can't help but think that when the first Frozen movie was being made, the creators never had any intention of having Anna or Elsa be bi racial indigenous women,

which is why they look so white. But like somewhere along the line, some person at Disney went to the creators of Frozen and said, look, we have a diversity quota to fill. Can you do something about that with the Frozen sequel? And they were like, sure, let's retroactively make the main characters half indigenous. That should do the trick. And of course this is me speculating. I couldn't find anything specific about this one way or the other in my research, but that is what it feels like to me.

Even so, I'll give it four nipples because the movie is trying and I'm grading on a curve today, so I'll give one to Anna, one to Elsa, um, one to Honeymaron, and one to Lena. Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go with four as well. I think, Yeah, it's it's kind of interesting because it's I mean, the fact that arguably one of the biggest franchises on the planet prioritized not just representing an indigenous culture, but doing

so responsibly. Um in a franchise that I would not have expected an attempt like this to be made, um much less pretty successfully. So I think it is pretty like an outlier in the entire Disney catalog. UM. And I want to give credit where credit is due there um, But yeah, docking for like I guess maybe like three

points seven five to four. This is I mean, the nipple scale is the most important thing in the entire world obviously, But I'm I'm fluctuating between like a three and a half and a four because we do still have basically that I have, like my problems with it are kind of unchanged from the first movie, where it's still I mean, we still have an overwhelmingly white behind

the camera team. It is. I think it is still like a very positive thing that um, Jennifer Lee is the writer and director of that in animation a woman, UM, even if it is a you know, a white lady, that still has a lot to learn. It is in animation particularly no small deal um, as we learned in our Brave episode where the female director was kicked off the film. Uh so, so I I still think that

that's very impressive. But the um having white actor's voice, indigenous characters is I mean in there's really you don't have a leg to stand on in terms of defending that choice that would have been truly just so easy not to make. And then and then yeah, I mean, I guess that the Christoph storyline is kind of a little bit unnecessary, even though I just wish that they had.

I liked what you suggested Ali far more of like Christoph and on a connecting on a shared culture versus just like I have to ask her to get married even though she's definitely gonna say yes. It's just like, why is she so nervous of out? It a very basic, like a kind of a weirdly basic plot point in a very complex movie. Um. And then I do wish that, um, the indigenous characters who we meet had more of an arc um and had more to do, because there was

space for that in in the movie. But by and large, I was like, really really really impressed with, um what this movie pulled off successfully. And I guess I guess I'll match you at four, three point seven five, I feel mean I'm horrible now. One one to um Honey Marion, one to Elena, Uh, one to Elsa, and then point seven five to Anna because she gets rescued too much. Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm gonna have to say four as well.

Just the only reason. Well, of course I'm biased because I just I loved it so much, But for a

lot of the reasons you mentioned. To have Sami people as consultants is good, but I feel like there should have been more as far as like behind the camera uh and in the voice acting studio for sure, but overall, I think that compared to the likes of Pocahonas and other indigenous fils ahead yes uh and other Indigenous princesses and characters that are in predominantly white studios, you know, It's Frozen two certainly wasn't the worst, and it surprised me.

It truly surprised me. I didn't expect anything deeper, you know, but it was wonderful and I give it for Anna is not getting anything, So I'm gonna give it Elsa Elena Christoff just because he saw me. Yeah, on A doesn't get anything, goodbye, nothing for Anna. Well, Elie, thank you so much for joining us, for being here. Where can people fund you online? Is there anything else you'd

like to plug? Your tumbler for example, in which you have all the information about the ALT test all that stuff, so the alt tests on Tumbler and then I'm also Ali Naddy on Twitter. Thank you so much for having me. Oh thank you. Please come back another time, like any any time you want. We'd love to have you back.

This is like, this is so much fun. Yeah, And if you guys ever do want to do like a Pocahonas video, I absolutely recommend a little red Nacho on Twitter because she is from the tribe the mart Pony, I think that's how you say it, tribe tribe, so she knows about like the actual history and the oral traditions and stuff like that. Yeah, she'd be a great guest for if we didn't when we do a Pocahonis episode.

So absolutely yeah, thanks thanks for that wreck. As far as our stuff, you can follow us at PacTel Cast on Twitter and Instagram, and we've got our Patreon a k A Matreon, Patreon, dot com, slash pecktel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes every month, plus access to our entire back catalog, which is I think like seventy episodes. Now. I don't know how time works, but it's been it's a lot.

It's a lot of episodes you can grab. You can grab some merch if you'd like, over at t public dot com. Slash the Bechtel Cast and uh, we'll catch you next week. Gang, what is it fun? I'm like, what's a quote from this Well, after this episode, we are about to go back into the unknown. Bye bye,