Fatal Attraction with Soraya Chemaly

fun fact about us. We were not in the top two d podcasts of the year. Bummer. I know. We'll tell your friends about us and get us into the top two hundred people. Jeez, women, it's true and that's why we have to do this podcast. UM. We base it loosely on the Bechtel Test. We use that as our jumping off point to initiate a bigger conversation about representation and portrayals of women in film. Film film. We're film podcast. We're assholes now. Sorry, we're pretentious a sorry.

And if you don't know what the Becktel test is, it is a media media test created by Alison Bechtel, and it requires that a film have flim Flim have two female identifying characters who are named. They must speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man, and by our standards, it has to be at least a two line exchange. You think it'd be easy, but it's films actually are not film good are bad, which is why we do this podcast because we hate movies.

Really quick thing that will not pass the Becktel test. But I feel compelled to tell you because I was socked. Also, I have a male dog now, which I know is upsetting, but I am training him to be you know an ally. He started humping my leg and I was like, honey, did not consent. I will consent, you may hump my leg. And then he continued and like keeps learning. Uh. So I was walking my dog yesterday because I do that now, and I was cat called from wait for it, a

lime scooter. Someone passed me on a live scooter was like you're beautiful, like, oh my god. It was barely moving faster than I was, and he was just like you're beautiful, like fast me and my doge and it was unbelievable Okay, a couple of questions. One, if you are cat called when you're with a dog, does that mean you're being dog called? Question number two, how many nipples does it cat call have? Zero? Zero? Well, I'm sorry that that happened to you. I'm also sorry, but

I'm I almost wonderful with history making. Was that the first time that someone had had the goal I feel their way back to presumably their grandma's house. Uh so that's the update on me dog cat called on a lime scooter. We're caught up. Wow, proud of you. Thank you. So the movie we're talking about, the movie today is Fatal Attraction, and let's just get right into it. Let's introduce her guests, let's do it. She is the author of Rage Becomes Her, the power of women's anger. So,

Riya Somali, thanks for having me today. Thank you for being here. Yeah, we're so psyched to talk about this. Uh, this this very bizarre movie with you. Yes, So what is your history your relationship with this movie? So, Riah, I really do associate this movie with like peak SU's Fluti backlash. That's my first association with it. I mean I remember when it came out. I remember all the discussion around it. I remember variations on its themes over the years. That's that's how I think of it. When

was the first time you saw it? Oh, I saw it in the theaters when it came out. It seems like, along with everyone else in the entire world at that time, Well, you know, it was so notable. I mean, there were women gaining power, and that's always a frightening specter, and so these depictions tend to have a lot of resonance. Yeah, yeah, well we'll talk about it. Um, Jamie Weer, is your history in relationship with the movie? Um? I have seen

this movie a couple of times. I think I saw it for the first time in college as a part of probably the worst film class I ever talk. I think that the gender dynamics in this movie were completely not discussed in the class. It was just like, this is how you write a thriller, this is what a good thriller is. And I remember being the first time. I was not the appropriate amount of horrified, I think because I was just like eighteen and didn't know anything

about anything yet. Um. But I've seen it a few times since, and with with each passing viewing, there's like new stuff you see or have learned in the intermittent time, where I'm just like Jesus, it's just the same. I saw it for the first time in college. To this was like when I was, like, you know, a young film student, hungry to consume all of the media that I could, and I knew about this movie. I already knew about the boiling bunny scene, so like, that's what

I knew going into it. I saw it just that one time and then didn't revisit it until we were prepping for this episode. But um, yeah, it's uh, it's a wild this is what this is one of my mom's favorite movies. Oh Jill, Yeah, she's I mean, and she was it's weird because she was about my age when this movie came out, and she was like, oh, it's weird. But her her opinions on it, she seems to both be aware of the issues but still really

loves the movie. Where her whole thing was she was like, well, yeah, Michael Douglas is so horrible. I'm not gonna like fall for like him being the good guy, but I love the movie and I love when Glenn Close yells. I was like, that's a valid, sure, wild, okay, So should I should I do the recap? Yeah? Yeah, okay. So so we meet Dan Gallagher played by Michael Douglas. He is sick lawyer, sick lawyer living in New York City.

He has a family um, his wife, his wife Beth, and they have a young daughter, Ellen with God I love the daughter. Um. So she's cute and the baldest woman in charge. She is, Yes, she's got she's got a very short haircut. Um. So he and his wife go to this work function and that's where he meets Alex Forrest. That's Glenn Close's character, who, upon meeting her, seems very normal, little flirtatious, and she was recently brought on to work as an associate editor at the publishing

company that his law firm represents. I think I have all of that right. So Beth, Dan's wife, goes out of town for a few days. His wife and Dan and Alex cross paths again because they're like working in the same vicinity, and they are in a meeting together and then it's raining, so they're like, oh, we can't be outside, let's get a drink together. Such a tenuous it's wet, like you live here. He waits to open his umbrella until after he's already standing in the rain.

It's I think this whole movie could have been avoided if he just like been better and umbrella. Yeah there, there's God. It's like it's raining, so I'm horny, okay, the end of first act, so they get a drink together. Then things escalate from there. They wind up at one of their apartments. They frick. They only say they have sex for those of you who don't know what freaking means um. And then they spent a couple of days together, and I wrote down quital bliss and I regret writing that,

but that is what I wrote. You know, I forgot that we only say frick, okay, bricklisit freaking um. At the end of these couple of days, he's like, look, I gotta go, and we can't see each other again because I have a his wife who is in the country trying to further domesticize him the movie, whe you believe, by trying to find a house for him to commute into the city and have a night or whatever, something

about school, bourbons and grandparents. This upsets Alex that she's told that he doesn't want to see her again, and she gets a little aggressive and she's yelling at him and she's kicking him. Uh. And then as he's about to leave, it's revealed that she has cut her wrists in a suicide attempt. Um. So he stays with her for a little longer and then she calms down and he's like, Okay, everything's good here, see you never. And then Beth and Ellen come back home and it seems

like everything is back to normal. They're like considering buying this house. Um, they're freaking, they're freaking. His daughter is doing magic tricks at him. But then Alex Forest shows up at Dan's office and she apologizes and she's like, hey, I was going through a rough time. I was in a crisis. Why don't you go to the opera with me as a peace offering? But he declines, doesn't think

it's a good idea. There's a whole overture of Madam Butterfly and how which this becomes important with the ending the movie if not Use, where the female protagonist kills herself at the end. Put that um, and it seems like Alex understands. He says, you know, that's not a good idea, I'm a married man, we shouldn't see each other again, and she's like okay, cool, and but then we cut to her at home and she's like crying. She's turning a lamp on and off over and over again.

She's not doing that. Scene is insanely long. Yeah, sorry, that's just a thought. Uh. And then she starts like calling his office and calling his home and he does agree to meet up with her to be like hey, stop bothering me, it's over. But then she's like I love you, and also I'm pregnant. Gregnant, sorry, and she says she wants to keep the baby. So then she shows up at his apartment and is hanging out with

his wife. His wife because she feigns an interest in buying the apartment that they are selling because they're moving into this new house, and she gets like his he had like unlisted his number. She gets his new number, and she's like, hey, I'm going to have this baby, and Alex tretends to tell Beth. He's like, you know, if you if you're not a part of this, like I'm gonna tell you you're his wife. Um, and then it seems like that might have worked and then they

move into their new house. He gets he gets his daughter a pet rabbit um. But then Alex pours acid. I think some does something to his car. It's I think it was acid. Yeah, she pours acid on his car. Uh. And then she sends him an audio message on tape, which is basically a podcast. She's just like, hey, you stuck, and she uses some homophobic slurs here she does. Dan goes to the police and he's like, hey, can something be done about this? But they are not helpful. Beth

comes home. There's a pot boiling on the stove. She takes a let off of it, and it is their daughter, Ellen's Bonnie rabbit boiling on the stove, and she's like what the hell. Dan is like, oops, I got to tell you something had an affair. She's pregnant. She and she's boiling our pets. She's pregnant and crazy. It's the implication. And uh, Dan's his wife is a very traditional his wife. Yes, he says, I'm mad, I'm not get out of here.

But then in the next scene there it's together temporary separation, and Beth tells Alex that she will kill her if she comes near her family again. But then Alex kidnaps their daughter Ellen. Also, Arita believe that like the teachers at Ellen's school just had no idea what the mom looked like, because they're like, no, she got picked up already, right. I thought that we would maybe when we saw Alex again, she would have had like maybe dyed her hair to

make her look like Beth, but that didn't happen. So yeah, they just like let any random woman pick up the children from this school. I think she brings Ellen to what like Coney Island or something, ride a roller coaster, and Beth is driving around looking for Ellen, and she gets into a car accident. Um, but Alex drops off the little girl and returns her home safely. So now Dan goes after Alex. There's a big fight. He strangles her for a little bit, um, she tries to stab him,

and then they calmed down. He leaves, and then when Beth's taking a bath, probably like I don't know, the next day or something like that, Alex shows up in the bathroom and she tries to kill Beth. Dan comes running in drowns her, we think, but then there's like one last jump scare, and then Beth shoots her Sorry, it sounds like I'm crying, but I just I'm choking on something. So anyway, it's just like it's so sad. I love Glenn Close. She's of my favorite actresses. If

you haven't seen Damages, you should see it. Yeah. Um So anyway, so that's the story. Let's take a break for a second and then come right back. Where to begin? I where to begin? Um? Sorry? What are your kind of initial thoughts with? Well, you know, it's interesting, Um. I think just around when that movie came out, I had just started working, and there was just so much conversation about what it meant to have a working woman depicted as incapable of personal happiness and indeed unhinged and

defeated by a happy wife at home. Right like that, that was the whole conversation. But it was just pretty stark. I mean, it was really remarkable to see the very successful trajectory of this movie that managed to make this sort of scumbag husband somehow seems sympathetic in light of the unhinged woman. It's also funny to me because I just also remember, I just remember that the crazier she got,

the curlier here. God, that's what happened. I remember thinking, thanks so much for that, like just a bonus on top, right, curly haired people, Yeah, well, you know they've got to be crazy, I think, right, And so you know, I think it's a morality tale, and it's a pretty blunt, forced instrument. It kind of takes a sledgehammer to the idea that here's a working woman who's very competent, who's you know, has a sex life that's not related to reproduction. Indeed,

how she kills small mammals. It doesn't really get more blunt than that, right, So yeah, I've always I've always taken its success as kind of a symbolic step, like a clinging of the culture. For sure. I feel like this is a movie where like a lot of men have seen and have used as an excuse to be like, yeah, women are crazy. Haven't you seen satal attraction story written and directed? That's right? And it's like the My Crazy

Ex Girlfriend the television show. There's this idea that crazy one stalk men and that maybe killed them, but they certainly set out to destroy their lives. And well, first of all, there are so many more women who are subjected to stalking thing one right, Right, Um. And thing two is it's very rarely the case that women actually have more economic power, more status, more credibility as leverage

over men that they choose to target for violence. You know, well that that was one of the main things that stuck out to me about this movie where we've done so many movies on this podcast that feature the reverse stalking of a male character pursuing a female character, and it is very, very rarely. I don't think in any movie we've ever done anyways that stocking tendencies are framed as scary or unhealthy when it's done from a man

to a woman. Most of the movies that the stocking trope from a man towards a woman are rom coms that are like classic romantic It's like, Wow, look how much he loves her. He's following her exactly and it's wearing her down until she's like, Yep, we're in love and that's true love. Where these have you seen? Unforgettable? No? No, that just recently came out. I think, Um, who is

in that Unforgettable? It's a it's a similar situation where there's a actually a new wife and the ex wife is Katherine Hagel I believe and she she turns out to be really badge crazy, and Rosario Dawson plays the new wife. I don't even know if it went to theaters. I saw her in an airplane, honest, but but I did explicitly watch it because because I was thinking of Fatal Attraction, I was like, Okay, well you know this

many years later, what does this look like? Um? And again, actually there is this sort of cold professional woman in relief to the sort of softer mellower literary arts magazine person. And one is crazy and and one is not. Yeah,

there's I mean the like the Fatal Attraction model. I feel like it's been recycled so many times, and like, based on the permutations of it, I've seen rarely strays from the format no matter what year it's coming out in where our producer Sophie was bringing up before hid a movie I remember seeing in high school was Obsessed, which is basically Fatal Attraction, but Beyonce plays the good wife and it's the same story but like just a

worse made movie. It's the same story. And another movie that we've covered, Single White Female, which came out a few years after Fatal Attraction, but it's you know, about this woman who targets another woman and basically you know, copies her life and goes after her boyfriend and just

like similar unranged, scary, stalker ish behavior. And I don't know if filmmakers of this time were like, yeah, we gotta like push the bar and like what if we saw a story about a woman stoker And like, I don't know what they were thinking, but not to say that. And there's a lot of that Madonna whore dichotomy, you know, the kind of good woman bad woman cat fight and women having to stay in their sphere, which is considered

exhibiting power within the context of relationships to men. You know, I think really the more power women have in the culture institutionally, the more these narratives kept putting them back into these domestic arenas where they could do get out. It's it's interesting because I feel like this, this movie in particular, is kind of firing on all cylinders in terms of putting women back in their place and making a female character who on paper seems to be pretty

progressive and empowered and turning her into this monster. Because there's a professional element to this where Glenn Close is very successful in her chosen field, and that is demonized

against her. She's unmarried, that is demonized against her. And uh, she is older and and that is held against her too, which I thought was especially strange in this movie where I was just trying to catch up on the context of when this movie came out, and there was that Newsweek story that I've heard reference before, But there was a story that came out in eight six that was like women over forty are more likely to get killed by terrorists than married. Um Like yeah, like, which is

a sound but I've heard before. But I was like, oh, that was reported as news cool. Uh. And and so to see an older woman and also women who have casual sex lives like we're to believe with the Glenn Close character, like even though it seems like she wants casual sex, every woman is actually like going for your seed no matter what, a like kind of a chump. In Michael Douglas's case, it's like, Nope, you can't be a woman over a certain age and not be like

dying to reproduce with whoever. Right, she says something like I'm thirty six, this might be my last chance to have a baby, and right it just perpetuates this idea that like, you know, women be baby crazy, women be trying to trap a man with pregnancy. I forget which episode we talked about this on before, but there's like this male fear that like women are just like out to get pregnant by you so that she can trap you and her little talents and like keeping Yeah, like

it's right. So have you seen the Stars Born remake? We all saw it together in the theater, So what what kind of cracked me up about that? Also having seen the first one, like I don't know how old I was, like seven, but this one in particular struck me as quite a remarkable presaging of me too and everything that's come since, because in fact, at the end, all I kept thinking was Okay, So in order for a woman to self actualized, to be professionally successful, a

man literally has to die. Yeah. We did an episode about this movie, and I don't we didn't put it in those words, but I mean, yeah, but yeah, he had to yeah for her to have a fun show. Yeah, And there's a there's a British show called I Think the Bodyguard. Have you've seen this? A bodyguard? He's in charge of guarding the British Prime Minister who was a woman.

And it also I don't want to ruin it for you since you haven't seen it, but it has a very similar lightebotif that there are women and that they have power, and that the man is repeatedly constrained, punished and destroyed by that fact, it seems like reparations. I know. Fair.

There's a number of reasons why I would hope that this movie couldn't be made today in the same way, at least, like there's certainly plenty of masked misogyny in movies coming out now, but it's like, I feel like people at least have to take at least one or two precautions. But the way that we are conditioned by this movie to be like, oh no, the conflict is like woman versus woman where the wife you know, picks

up on Alex totally takes it at face value. Oh well, my husband said she's nuts, so I'm just going to take that at face value whatever that even means, and threatened to kill her on the phone, which is right. And then the fact that Ann Archer's character kills glend Close at the end is very like okay, so domesticity when and you know, fidelity and standing by your man, regardless of what a chump loser he is, will always win the day and take down any woman in your

path that will prevent you from that right. It's also, I think a really good example of um punching down being allowed to punch down. In the book that I've written about anger, there's a lot about this idea that, you know, people who don't have power or status compared to other people can't express their anger at their oppressors or at the people exerting power over them, so the anger gets diverted. And so in day to day life, it means maybe somebody goes to work and they get

really angry and frustrated. Then then they go home and they yell at their children, right, or they get angry at someone in the line at the market or something. But I think it's a pretty good example over and over again when we see these stories where women's acceptable anger is aimed at other women, Because there are times

when we can be acceptably angry. We can be angry at other women, we can be angry at our mother's and we can be angry at men with lower status, like men who are black or brown, right, But we can't be angry. The anger can't be aimed up, and it can't be aimed horizontally at men. We consider our equals. And that's a test I use when I look at these movies that exhibit women's anger, I'm like, Okay, well, how is anger allowed to be used? Because Beth is angry much more so at Alex than she is at

her husband. There's a brief outburst where she's like, get out of here, but then in the next scene he's back at home. You know, they're like figuring this out together. And the issue that like Glenn Close was a temptress who per you know, Beth and Dan's version of the story, they're like, well, she tempted him to the point where he couldn't resist, and so she's right, and we just accept, like, well, men can't control themselves, so sure they should make more

money than can. We talk about the endings debacle with this movie, Hello Anderson, Yeah, because the way the movie ends. Caitlin was re rewatching the end of the movie when I came in today, and there's so much about it that is confusing, and it's because that wasn't supposed to

be the actual ending of the movie. So, and I remember reading about this a while ago, but like revisiting the journey of this movie ending the way it does, which is by Glenn Close like surprised, she isn't ound and she gets killed by the wife, and so, uh,

women shouldn't have jobs and they should marry guy's name Dan. Sure, great, but uh, the way it was originally supposed to end, which is so well set up in the movie, Like, regardless of if you like the movie or not, in the movie is supposed to end like Madam Butterfly, which they recap in full in the movie, which is that runs the man leaves the woman, she kills herself in you know, despair, and that's how the movie ended. And

that's filmed. It exists. You can basically frames him because she makes sure his fingerprints are on the knife that he picks up to almost you know, or to whatever happens that scene. Um, so his fingerprints are on the knife and then he gets arrested for her murder. That's yeah, that's how that was supposed to end. It didn't test well with audiences, so they rewrote it. They reshot it

into the ending that we have now. And something I thought was interesting was that, like Michael Douglas was pro the ending that is in the movie, but the director andrean Line or Lynn which is it? Not sure? He directed a terrible version of Lolita anyways, other one with Jeremy Irons. One with Jeremy Irons. It's sick. It is. I mean, it is a story, not that shouldn't be filmed in the first place, correct, but the way he

does it is disgusting. But anyways, the director and Glenn Close were so resistant to change it, but they were studio notes into oblivion, and that's why we have the very confusing ending that exists now. Right. Yeah, So, like Alex shows up in the bathroom she got in undetected into their house, is in the bathroom with Beth, has a knife and makes stabbing motions at Beth, but somehow doesn't like she's striking her with the knife in her hands. End,

but she doesn't get stabbed somehow. I guess she's punching her with the fist that she's holding the knife in not clear. And then Dan has to come in and save her um and then Beth ultimately shoots Alex to death. So it's like right, the domestic figure triumphing over this woman that the movie has made you believe is evil, and like, I have to admit, I was like falling for it even as I was watching it this time, Like whenever he's trying to kill her, I was like, Yeah,

she kidnapped a child, she like boiled a rabbit. Yeah, like she's a bad person. I want her to be defeated. But then I was like, wait a minute, this is the movie manipulating me into thinking this, and I shouldn't be feeling this way because the way the movie handles or doesn't handle, like mental health and framing her is this unhinged woman without Yeah, I mean this this movie

has no regard for a lot of things. But like meant that the use of like the crazy woman trope is so I mean, it's not just hack and tired, it's so oblivious to any any mental health issue. Um. In fact, according to the Amazon Prime trivia that pops up when you're watching it, there um boo to Amazon. But anyway. In a interview with CBS News, Glenn Close admitted that she would have rethought her portrayal of Alex Forest because of her fear that the film's popularity may

have been a contributing factor toward mental health stigma. Close said that I would have read the script totally differently. Um, the astounding thing was that in my research for Fatal Attraction, I talked to to psychiatrists. Never did a mention of mental disorder come up. Never did the possibility of that come up. That, of course would have been the first thing I think of. Now, so she has, you know, in recent years. You know, it's what seems like expressing

regrets on how this movie frames. So good good for Glenn because right the way I mean she attempts suicide and then she acts increasingly unstable and unhinged and violent and stoker ish, and and also like very clearly paints the suicide attempt is like, oh, it was strategic and she just wanted to reel you in and keep your attention and this is why someone would do that. And yeah,

it's all you know, I think. I think it's interesting too that this movie it came out maybe six or seven years before Bill Clinton became president, and it was a real cultural moment, right, it was just huge. It

was a global success. And then you know, maybe I don't know, not very long after that you had Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky had issues with Hillary Clinton, and you know whether she would stand by her man or not, And all of that feels like one long cultural nightmare moment, right, Like just the narrative of the film, the message it's sent, the idea that somehow women are in control of men's sexuality and that they can be absolved of responsibility for

the havoc they've reached um and that indeed Bill Clinton abusing the power that he abused in the White House, it can can step back while the two women do get out publicly, right, And those feel very similar to me in terms of how the public deals with those issues or wants to deal with those issues or not. I agree. I mean, it's just the concept of a home record seems to be very prevalent in this and then the years that come after the eighties, like movie.

I struggle with Movie, A lot of movies from the eighties kind of for this reason, where there I mean, there's misogyny and cinema in every year since film has existed, but like the eighties stands up out to me, particularly because there were so many things in the seventies that were positive and moving women and what would appear to be you know, like more movies about women in the workplace. You've got normal ray, You've got like really cool, interesting

movies like that. But then the eighties seems to kind of revel in setting it back and being like, oh, wait, we've accidentally made women too powerful. Now we've got to make them scary again and make like a woman, a competent woman, you know, somehow nullify that. Right. Yeah, But you know, I think it's interesting what we're seeing now though with witches, because there's resurgence of resurgence of which narratives, right, because we're talking about power and we're talking about anger.

And the thing about which narratives always is that they've always implied that there is crazy irrationality involved and that the power women have is unnatural. It's never natural, right, it's extra natural, it's extraordinary, and it's not rational. The anger is never rational, the power is never rational. And that's that's the only thing that kind of really concerns

me about all of these witchcraft narratives right now. That's so interesting, Yeah, because witchcraft narratives do tend to crop

up in bulk. Yeah, for a while and I was I was thinking, I mean, this is sort of off topic a little bit, the like why is both like witchcraft and like Taro and astrology seems to have come back in a major way and like the past several years, and I think I sort of just was like, oh, well, this is probably like a societal response to dystopia where everyone wants to believe in magic again because we live

in a very fashy world. But that makes a ton of sense of you know, even though women are allowed to be powerful in these narratives, it is couched in like but not every woman is like this and like you have and and it's it can be dangerous. It's dangerous and men are always at risk because the women have the power. And it's not normal. Right, That's the

point about the women's power in Witchcraft. It's not normal. Right. Yeah, Wow, thank you for making me think that we've got to take a quick break, but we will be right back in a moment. Can we talk about the like pregnancy and abortion aspect of this where she tells him that she is pregnant, He gregnant. He says that he will help her take care of it. Basically, he'll pay for the abortion, and she's like, no, I I want to

keep it. He says, well, don't I have any saying this, And part of me is like her body, her choice, but she says she's going to have the baby whether he wants to have anything to do with it or not,

and we're like okay. But then a moment later, she's like, well, I was hoping that you didn't want to have something to do with it, And that's the whole like trapping him narrative of like I'm keeping the baby, said that hopefully you'll want to go out with me, my boyfriend and so, and then I guess he calls the doctor, her doctor, and the doctor confirms that she is pregnant, and I was like, wait, what about like doctor patient confidentiality?

But then I looked up when Hippa was. I looked it up and Hippa didn't go into effect and tell nineties. So that's that. Yeah, So you could just be some random guy and be like, hey, is this lady pregnant? That's and that's so wow. Yeah, because this movie came out in what eighties? Seven? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Um. Now we live in a time where Amazon will tell you if you're pregnant before you know, so Jeff Bezos knows

about every drop of the seaman on the planet. Um. And then a little bit later, the Dan character says like, look, whether or not you want to keep it, it's your choice. So I'm like, okay, pro choice, Dan Gallagher. Good for him. Um. But again, it just it, It does so much to reinforce this idea that so many men have, which is

the Yep, women are crazy. You sleep with them and it's fun for a second, but then they're gonna go ape shift on you, and they're gonna trap you, and they're gonna you know, stock you and this and this and that. The thing that's most telling to me, and I guess why why I brought up the uh, the two endings in the first place, is that you know,

at least two of them. And there was also god, I can't remember what her name is, let me pull it up, but the director Glenn Close and producer named Sherry Lansing, who was like a very powerful producer at this time. We're all against changing the ending. But the audience response and remember this is like Reagan era, so scary, right, but like the audience response was so against it that

they literally had no choice. The movie couldn't get released unless the far different ending that watching it now, you're like, wait, what is happening here unless the thing that you know reinforce these very traditional oppressive values was included. And that was like the audience's decision. And so it's like you can't even blame it on an executive, which is always

fun to do, right. It was just the cultural landscape at the time, and I think Sherry Lansing, I think one of her responses was, what do you mean it depicts professional women badly? I'm a professional woman, yes, which of course is irrelevant, like he really has nothing to do with how the movie depicts this one. Um, but that was her response in defense of producing the film, I think, right, which is like I mean that, I'm like, what do we make of that response? I mean, I

don't know. Sometimes it's it's like when a woman's response to oppressing other women is like, but it's chill because like women women and with it so it's cool like no, right, but um, I also interesting argument just real quickly wanted to touch on, as per almost every movie in existence,

this is an extremely white movie. But a few different times a few of the white characters are like mocking specifically Japanese culture because like the very beginning there um at this book event for this samurai self help book, and Dan and his friend are like making fun of the Japanese people there, and then they do it again later on when they're like having their like couples dinner together, they're like just like imitating them in a very offensive way. Yeah,

it is not good in that yeah. And also it's interesting because it is this very specific stereotype of a crazy, angry woman that is tied to whiteness, to white women, right, Like we know the stereotypes for black women, they're just born angry, right, Angry black women is that stereotype, and even little girls who are are black in school are

target that brush, right. And I think too we have like if you're Asian American or of Asian descent, you're sad, right of that whole trope, And if you're Hispanic, you're hot. But if you're white, you're crazy, like you know, you're literally insane. Um. And I think that depiction is one

that really sticks in people's heads. I mean, they they refer still to Glenn Close as sort of mad expression and the boiling bunny, and I don't think you can say operated from her whiteness, you know, And there's different like variations on that is as like you know, cinema has gone on where I think that evolves into like the manic pixie dreamgirl trope that we see and things like that. But yeah, it is real. It's like upper class white woman equals crazy. I guess, well, I mean

and and and the like professional white woman. Uh is, like it's like peak demonization here. And there's so many variants of that theme in the eighties of like mean that that trickles like even into now. Uh of like you know, a woman who is where you know, wearing any manner of shoulder pad is an evil person and is going to ruin your life. Yeah, so like the demonization of women in the workplace, which unfortunately because the world white women were sort of the first women welcomed

into the higher echelons of the workplace. It's yes. Is there anything else that anyone wants to say about the the film? Well, I have a question for you, please. Do you think it would be any different if the original ending were run now? If they if this were re released as far as I can tell the way the yeah, the way the alternate ending was described to me, I don't like that ending any better because I don't

like this movie. I don't think like I I think it is an effective thriller because there are moments when I'm like, I'm scared, but like because of the way the movie handles and or mishandles so many things and perpetuates all these negative, you know, tropes and stereotypes about you know, kind of specific types of women and stuff

like that and demonizes, you know, female sexuality. And because there's a moment where Alex is something like I won't allow you to treat me like some slet you can bang a couple of times and then throwing the garbage.

So on one hand, like her anger is like justified because she's like, you know, you knew what you were doing, and then you're gonna dump me because you're going back to your wife, and the movie like equivocates like that rational statement with her being exactly exactly, so it just it like goes towards taking things in the right direction a couple of times, but then immediately like backtracks on them.

So to answer your question, I don't think it would have been that differently, because that ending is her committing suicide and then like framing him from beyond the grave, and that's just as unhinged as everything else that happens. Yeah, I agree, I don't. I don't think it's a better I think, like story wise, it's an ending that makes more sense with the very like deeply troubled story that's been set up, so strictly for story it makes more sense.

But I think that, like, especially where we already view her make a suicide attempt in front of him, that she follows through on it at the end, I don't like. I don't know where that's besides mirroring Madam Butterfly. I don't know what that does. I don't know. Just how

do you feel about it? Right? Well, the thing that occurred to me with the the ending that was eliminated actually was it's funny to me that you said been closely commented on mental illness, because had she done that, I think you would have been more likely to leave with the feeling that she had a mental illness, because you know, you don't get rebuffed and then try and

kill yourself and then kill yourself. That's not the way that works, um, and and so it actually would have veered away from the she's just a crazy woman narrative and the use of crazy in that very negative sense to wow, you know, something was really wrong with this person she didn't help, which is a totally different thing. Nobody wanted to help Glenn Close, you know, right, Yeah, I guess that would end up eliciting a like sympathy, And well, I don't I don't necessarily think so, but

I do think it was. It was different because you'd end up with a different feeling, right, Like, it's just different than that hyper violent catfighting that we got. But it's all within the parameters, as you say, of the fact that she's an unhandied woman, and that's what we're dealing with. Yeah. I I'm still trying to process the events of this movie after having rewatched it, and and

I I can't do it. It's very easily. Yeah, it's I mean, it's so ingrained into like people who haven't seen this movie are familiar with this, with the basics of what this movie did, and and it's like I've literally heard you know, men site this character as a reason to not trust a certain type of woman. Oh, yeah, right,

that's true. Glenn Close says she said in two thousand and eight that men still come up to her and say that her character scared the ship out of them, or that like her character saved their marriage, which liked. I don't know, and we have really been doing a lot better since. Yeah, Or that they were like inspired to either tell or not tell of their wives of their infidelity. I don't know. I can't even imagine what

that would look like. But Uma is actually, um, well, we're just about a time, so let's discuss whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. It does a couple of times, um so so thinly. But there is a moment between the daughter Ellen and her babysitter, who gets named as Christine, and it's played by uh. They say like, hey Christine, Hey Ellen, how you doing. I'm good. Where's your mom? She's in the bathroom. I got your present. I like it. Okay, let's go find her best role. Yes,

so that passes. Um. It passes between Beth and Alex whenever, um, Alex comes into their apartment and they're talking about the apartment, they're talking about the cleaning lady. So like that's mostly happens. You know, you hear that dialogue kind of like happing off screen, but um, it's there. It passes. Uh, And then there's a fun moment where Beth picks up the phone and she says, this is Beth Gallagher. If you ever come near my family again, I will kill you. You

You understand so. But but Alex doesn't respond, So that does not it's a feminist text. So let's write it now on our nipple scales zero to five nipples. Based on his portrayal of women. Um, it demonizes everything about an empowered woman, basically a woman who's in control of her sexuality, a career woman, you know, a woman who wants to have a baby, Like just everything about it is. She's like, well she's crazy and she's you know, trying to trap him. So I'm going to give it zero nipples.

I think I'm also going to give it zero for all the reasons to describe. Yeah, I just I can't stand Reagan era movies. Um, just blanket statement anything that came out during his presidency. It tends to be regressive, capitalistic, and like just annoying to watch. Um, I mean I love that. It makes me so angry. And just I think that I just him on team Glenn Close forever. But it makes me angry the way that Glenn Close,

who was forty when this movie came out. Um, the way she was able to get a leading role was to play a character like this, Like there were not that many options for women, you know, even over thirty five, uh, playing leading roles at this time because she was out of the on genew zone and so what she was relegated to her mother roles or this new opportunity of being someone who's completely unhinged, and this was the way for her to get a leading role. You know, that's like,

what what kind of option is that? Sure? Zero nets, so zero nipples across the board. Cool? Well, Sarria, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh my pleasure. That was really fun. I'm so sorry that I have to stop right now. Oh no, that's quite all right. Is there anything you would like to to plug? Where can people follow you online? Oh? Um? So they can follow me on Twitter at s c H E. M A L. Y. Whenever I publish anything, I usually share

it there or also in Facebook. And also I am the director of Initiative of the Women's Media center called The Speech Project, which focuses on women's signific and political participation, and so it's always easy to find me there too Awesome and read us Rice book Rage Becomes Her The Power of Women's Anger. You can follow us the Bechtel

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about our Patreon a k a. Matreon. It is five dollars a month and you get to bonus episodes every single month. Oh, I just felt it. I guess we did talk about the stars born in this episode, So we did, and I didn't even bring it up. I know I wrote it up. So they're well, everyone, thank you for listening, love you, love you, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye,