Ever After with Keah Brown

and there and they're living, laughing and loving. The end. The end, the end. Okay, fine, you know what, there's no conflict. That was a great story. I okay, well, welcome to the back Cast. I didn't have anything that

was the best I could come up with on short notice. Honestly, listeners, I think it's because we have covered We're having a really Cinderella e month, and I feel like we've kind of burned out our Cinderella themed intros because over on the Matreon we did Ella Enchanted and a Cinderella Story for Cinderelluary, and now we're observing Cinderelluary in February with an amazing guest. All I had to say, we've been introducing Cinderella episodes quite a bit lately. What's your podcasts again?

So we are the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus. And again we're so we're just ordinary women, were commoners. In fact, we're just yeah yeah, which some people don't care about, right, And we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bectel test as a jumping off point. Jamie, ye tell me what

that is, please. While it's an ordinary media metric in which uh um we uh it was invented by Holy sh it is invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test, lots of different permutations of the test. The one that we use requires that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. You're in Luck today, baby.

It's a movie that I think we were talking about this as we were watching, Caitlin or you mentioned this. I think barely passes the reverse Bechtel test. Yeah, there's not a lot of men talking to each other in this movie. And we love that love so and we have Okay, So we have a very not just a very popular request, but an extremely popular guest returning to continue her mission of covering the best Cinderella adaptations on offer,

which happened to come out one year apart. Right, Yes, and these episodes are coming out almost exactly one year apart. Because it's true. Right around a year ago, our guest was on for Cinderella, The Brandy and Whitney Houston one. She's back for this episode. She is a journalist, actor, author of the book The Pretty One on life, pop culture, disability, and other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, and she's got a forthcoming children's book called Sam's Super Seats.

It's Keia Brown. Oh god, Hi, thank you for having me back. I'm pretty much you know, force your hand, but it was necessary. You manifested it. I did. I quote all the YouTubers I watch. I had it on my metaphorical vision board. I'm so thrilled that you brought us this Cinderella adaptation in particular. We I know how passionate you are about it, and it's um when I've never seen before. Recovering ever after Today, Ever After parentheses. A Cinderella Story, not to be confused with a Cinderella

Story starring Hillary Duff and Chad Michael Murray. Chad Michael Murray, Uh sorry, yeah, I know that this is Like have you seen the Hillary Duff Cinderella Story And if so, how recently? Oh? I own it? Like I have the DVD. I watched it, I'd say at the beginning of no at the end of December. I think I watched it on Oh my god, so very recently. I didn't seen it in over a decade. And I like, what a messy, interesting film. So what is your relationship with ever After? Kia? Oh?

I mean it's a masterpiece. I think it deserved oscars. I feel like people need to see the movie, like it's one of those movies where it's like, I don't care how you feel about anybody in it, you still need to watch it. Like it's It's one of those films that I think is like the perfect intro for people who don't know how they feel about a ram com but I want to try them out. I think ever After is that movie to give you you know, your way in because it's just it's a masterpiece. It's

a Gateway drug. Yeah, like everybody has a different accent, Like everybody in the film has the same accent. Like it's just correct, and I think it's like beautifully casted. And I just feel like some parts made no sense, but it makes all the sense together, like you know what I mean. Like ideally you'd be like, why why do they all sound so different if they're from the same place, But yeah, it's just beautiful. I'm obsessed with it. It's spiritually it makes sense. I know, I was. I

was getting some I wrote down. I was like getting some House of Gucci vibes with the accent work, because everyone allegedly is from the same place. But but I also like how it's like they're in France there in Renaissance era France. The only character with the French accent is her father, a goost, who's only on screen for the first like five minutes, and then everyone else has a British accent, which is five that happens in movies

all the time. I feel like movies that are specifically catered to like Western audiences, is like everyone's British, but they could be from anywhere in Eastern Europe. But I feel like it keeps coming to your attention because they keep making fun of England and America while speaking in British accents, but they're from France and you're like, huh, they also Spain. It's a whole thing. Look. I was confused,

but also he I totally agree with. It's like, well, everything happening is emotionally true, and so you're just like on board with the ride, right, You're like, you know what, I'll just I'll do this. It's it's fine, whatever is happening, I'm gonna let it do it, and it's just we'll figure it out at the end. There's enough good stuff going on. Yeah. Yeah, So like you know, you get past the fact that it's literally nobody talks the same.

Everybody's just kind of like trying to make it work using their like listen, I'm just gonna be charming and lovable and you're gonna deal with it. It's fine, we'll figure it out and make it happen. I love it and it works and it works. Jamie, you said you had never seen this before, correct, I hadn't. I was kind of surprised that I hadn't. I don't know why

I hadn't. But I guess that there's just so many Cinderella adaptations from this era that you gotta miss one of them, and I guess this is this is the one that I missed, and I'm bummed out because it's so so much better than a lot of the ones that I did get very attached to. So I'm I'm really thrilled to have seen it now. I think it holds up like extremely well. I had a great time watching it. And sorry, but Flee is going off today, so he's just going to be present in the recording. Um,

and yeah, I really enjoyed it. Caitlin, had you seen this movie before? I forget I had, but I didn't grow up with it. I only saw it for the first time during the pandemic and it was after Kia we recorded Cinderella with you. So I saw it for the first time within the past like probably nine months, and I can safely say it's my favorite Cinderella adaptation.

And I watched it like three times to prep for this episode, partially because it's a very dense movie in a good way, like it just there's a lot happening, there's a lot to digest, there's a lot to process, but in a way that it's just covering a lot of ground, and like there's all this class commentary that you're not expecting from a Cinderella movie, even though the source material is ripe to make that kind of commentary. But most of them don't bother with it. So it's

just like really cool. And I like the movie a lot. I think it's well written. And oh my gosh, Angelica Houston's eyebrows and all the work that they're doing, the costumes, everything her eyebrowser put to work in this movie. She really is like she's using her powers for good and this one she and Angelica He's I'm trying to think of who belongs in the Eyebrows Hall of Fame. I'm going to work on this eyebrows Hall of Fame. Angelica Houston's in there, of course, Will Poulter's in there. That's

as far as I've gotten. Well, it's a good start. Listeners, If there's anyone that you're like, oh, this is an obvious addition to Eyebrows Hall of Fame, please let me know. And by that I mean I think just people who really we lead with their eyebrows. It's an unusual acting decision. I'll throw um. Well, I don't know if she leads with her eyebrows, but Rachel Weiss has very prominent eyebrows. Put her in. She's then I'm renting a space it. This is an installation of doing um, I love it.

All right, we'll get there. Let's talk about ever after. Yes, here's the recap. We open on an old woman telling the brothers grim that their version of Cinderella is inaccurate and too fantastical, but she has the real story, which is once upon a time again. In Renaissance era France, there was a young girl named Danielle de Barberak. She and her father, August are very close. He has just married a woman, a stepmother to Danielle. She's a baroness

named Rodmilla de Gent and she is Angelica Houston. She has two daughters, Marguerite and Jacqueline. And not long after Danielle's new step family moves into their manner, Danielle's father dies and she is, of course devastated. Ten years pass we then meet the King and Queen of France and their son, Prince Henry played by do Gray Scott. Is that his name? Who is that not? Sure, okay, I don't think so is it what is it? Is it doug Ray? Is it doug Ray? Doug Ray would be fun.

That's like the Margharita vill reed of that of that name. How do you say his first name? I assumed it was do Gray. Yeah, I don't know why I said Doury. Let's just go with is terrible, but hey, it can be anything we want. So Prince Henry is leaving his tower to escape the pressures of palace life, to quote Disney's Aladdin, because he is about to be forced into an arranged marriage with the Princess of Spain, which he does not want to be in. Meanwhile, Danielle is now

Drew Barrymore. And then you know, as the Cinderella story goes, her stepmother has made her a servant in her own home. She's cruel to Danielle. And then one day, as Danielle is outside doing her chores, she sees a man stealing her father's horse, so she pelts him with apples, but then realizes that he's the Prince. He pays her to keep quiet about having seen him, and with this money, Danielle can buy back quote unquote Maurice one of the servants of the house who the baroness had sold to

pay her taxes. I really enjoyed that. I don't know. I was like, oh, this, here's a fantasy I didn't know that I had where a man looks ridiculous in front of you and then he throws you a bag of money and then disappears forever. I was like, that actually should be more of a common practice. Right, he's doing something bad, you're punishing him. He looks like a fool, and then he's like, please don't tell anyone you saw this. Here's a bunch of money. I really think that that

would be a good thing. I mean, and then we would we would all own houses, you know. Yeah, we would be rich exactly, no debt. We can dream. So that morning, as Danielle is serving breakfast, the Baroness is especially cruel to Danielle, as is her daughter Marguerite played by Megan Dodds, though the other step sister, Acculean, played by Melanie Lynsky, seems much more sweet. I love Melanie.

I didn't know she was in this movie. She's there, and her character is similarly bullied by the Baroness and Marguerite then we cut back to Prince Henry, who on his journey runs into Leonardo da Vinci as one does, who is on his way to the castle because he was invited to be the artists in residence. Is so wild, right,

I did not. Okay, if you, like me, hadn't seen ever after, are you shocked to hear in this recap that Leonardo da Vinci is And then I was like, oh, that's an interesting But then he's there for the rest of the movie. He's a main character. He's in many ways the grandpa that Henry right right, like he's and then in some ways, like there's a read of it where it's like he's also the fairy Leonardo Nci. Other Yeah, he is a fascinating choice. I loved it, And tell

me your thoughts on this. So we see the scene where Danielle is throwing apples at the Prince Leonardo Davincius in the movie the da Vinci Code is apple. Uh huh? Is the movie trying to tell us something? It is trying to tell us don't watch The Da Vinci Code when it comes out, like in eight years, absolutely ridiculous dogship movies gonna come out and everyone's gonna say it's good, and then you're gonna watched three years later and be like,

the da Vinci code was Apple. I still can't. We We covered that on the Matreon like a year ago, and I'm still furious about it, like we were all the power we gave that man, Dan Brown when the da Vinci code was Apple is so absurd. Alfred Molina is in it, though, and that's it's one redeeming quality, and so we can't write it off entirely. There is cultural significance understandable, Yes, okay, So Leonardo da Vinci is on his way to the castle, but he is being

robbed by a band of thieves. Henry recovers the Mona Lisa that one of the thieves was trying to steal Prince. Henry also goes to return the horse that he had stolen from the Baroness to the baroness, and Marguerite then tries to dazzle the Prince. She hopes that he will

fall in love with her and marry her. Meanwhile, Danielle, with the help of her friend Gustav, secretly borrows a fancy dress so she can impersonate a noblewoman and go to the castle to negotiate the buying back of Maurice, which she successfully does, something that Prince Henry witnesses, and he is very impressed by her passionate speech about class and he's like, wow, who are you. What's your name?

To quote Ella Enchant, You're not like other girls, like this movie doesn't like directly say it to you, but there but you know, same vibe. He's like, but there's more nuance too, because there is. There is. I don't want to keep interrupting you, but my one of my favorite lines of the entire movie is when he comes to return the horse and she says, oh, she's mute,

and he's like, but she was talking to me. Just ride and she was like, oh it comes and girls just a pleasant perfect The movie's got jokes, yes, So Danielle is trying to brush off Prince Henry and she finally tells him that she's a comtesse by the name of Nicole de Lancre, which we learned was her mother's name, and then Danielle runs off. Danielle and Maurice returned to the manor. There is a very nice reunion with them and the two servant women that Danielle is very close

with Paulette and Louise. Then the King, after arguing with Henry about this arranged marriage, decides to throw a ball in honor of da Vinci, who again is in the movie as a character. Um, if Henry can find love before the ball, he can marry whoever he falls in love with, rather than the Spanish princess. But the ball is only five days away. Done right. The Baroness and all the ladies of the house get invited to the ball.

So so now the Baroness is like, okay, this is our chance to like get the prince to fall in love with Marguerite. She bribes Toby Jones, who is making his American film debut in this movie. Yes, he had been in a number of like British productions, but this is his first role in an American production. I would say that Toby Jones is actually doing a lot of eyebrow acting and this role also okay, so he's going into consideration for my gallery. Amazing. So Toby Jones's character

works at the castle in some capacity. It's a page okay, got it. The Baroness bribes him to feed her information about what Prince Henry is doing so that Marguerite can basically stalk Prince Henry. Then Danielle finds out about the ball when she walks in on Marguerite about to steal Danielle's mother's dress and shoes, and the Baroness plays it off like, oh, Danielle, you can come to the ball too,

I guess if you're on your best behavior. Then Danielle bumps into Prince Henry again when she's having a little swim. I love this something about like, I feel like we've discussed the trope. This is not the trope, though, I would say this is an inversion of the troupe, which didn't exist at the time. So I don't know what

I'm talking about. But there's been a recent wave of coming of age stories where at the peak of the action, the peak of her uncertainty, the girl dives into a pool and it's like like it happens in Ladybird, it happens in eighth Grade, it happens all the recent coming of age movies. A girl's jumping into an in ground pool and having a moment. This is the opposite. Drew Barrymore is having a moment, but she's like floating. She's looking at this guy. She's having a nice time, and

she's like, I don't know. I really liked that moment. I was like, oh, I want, I want to do that. It seems very relaxing. Here was my thought. Leonardo DiCaprio watched this movie and he's like, Wow, someone in water swimming around, but they're still wearing their clothes. But he's already been at it for years at that point, he'd been in clothes in water. That's I mean. Titanic probably sued her and Romeo all we call this lawyer before they left the movie theater, and was like, can I

sue for this is my intellectual property? Can you copyright wet clothes? But it's so great though, because she was just like they're minding her business, you know, like relaxing. And then you're coming out of the virgie and he's just like, hey, looks like rain. He's walking on water because he's invented boat shoes or something. Who knows. I love every time he's on screen. I'm like, I'm interested. Whatever is happening. I'm interested. So Danielle bumps into Prince Henry.

They have another discussion about class. It becomes kind of flirty. They're giggling, but then she has to run off and get back home again. Then we meet this wealthy, creepy guy Monsieur Le Pew literally love p you like we get it pay l Pew Yeah, played by Richard O'Brien of Rocky Horror Picture Show Fame. This guy has a fixation with Danielle and he wants to marry her, slash

and trap her basically. Meanwhile, Prince Henry is kind of going through the motions of courting Marguerite, but you can tell he's not really interested in her because he like

someone else, surprised it's Danielle. Um. There are a couple of instances where Prince Henry almost runs into Danielle when she's in her commoner clothes, including when Danielle and Gustav are in a field and she's trying to fly one of da Vinci's kites, so she has to run back to the manner get into a fancy dress just in time for Henry to arrive and pay her a visit. He then takes her to this huge library. She's dazzled by all of the books Fairy Beauty and the Beast.

He has like a really I don't know why I always focus on this in the scene, but like his pants is very pronounced or whatever they had, it's very pronounced in that scene. That is true of a lot of this movie where whatever, like cod pieces they wore back in the day. It's very distracting because I'm just looking at the the giant bulge in these guys pants. But that's yeah, it's like that said, let's not be pointing fingers at the movie. Maybe you're just horny. Could

be sounds like me, okay. So on their way back, the carriage breaks down and Danielle and Henry are bombarded by the same band of thieves. Then we get that moment where the main thief is like, you can take anything you can carry, and then Danielle picks up Henry and starts to carry him away, and the thieves are like feminism alert. I liked it though. Yeah. Then the thieves are like, all you goofs, let's be friends, and then they all hang out and Danielle and Prince Henry

finally kiss. Meanwhile, Marguerite and the Baroness are trying to get into the Queen's good graces, mostly by using deceit. The Baroness uninvites Danielle from the ball after she stays out all night, although the Baroness does not know that daniel was with the Prince. Then Marguerite says something really rude about Danielle's mother, so Danielle punches Marguerite in the face. So but then Marguerite retaliates by destroying a beloved book of Danielle's that her father gave her. Margite she he

is sorry extremely. Then the Baroness figures out that the contests that the Prince has been spending so much time with that all of the courtiers at the castle are gossiping about, is in fact Danielle. And then Danielle meets up with the Prince again and wants to tell him that she's actually a commoner, but she can't bring herself to do it. Back at the manner, the Baroness confronts Danielle about pretending to be a contest and locks her in the pantry. On the eve of the ball, no,

so it's the ball is about to happen. Henry thinks his contest is engaged to a Belgian man, so he's about to relent and go through with the engagement to the Spanish princess, but Gustav grabs Leonardo da Vinci, who breaks Danielle out of the pantry. She shows up at the bay sentences, so weird need to draw everyone's attention to the fact that the sentences or die. Okay, he is, he is like, I needed to happen. I'm gonna do what I can. Hope he's a shippers. He believes in

he does. His portrait at the end was just like fan fiction for the time. Yeah, He's like, well, I can conjure whatever I want, So I'm going to conjure

this ship, like incredibly use of power. Why didn't Robert Langdon in the Da Vinci Code examine anything about that painting and try to figure out Lawrence asking Also, we didn't mention this, but in the framework, um, the framework of this movie reminded me so much of the beginning of A Portrait of a Lady on Fire, because it's like a woman looking at longingly at a painting of a young girl and being like, it's kind of a funny story, actually, and then it flashes very different movies

unless I'm gidding. Okay, So Danielle shows up at the ball, she's in this beautiful gown, she's in wings that Leonardo da Vinci crafted for her. Henry is like, oh my god, I love you. But then the baroness outs Danielle as a servant, and then Henry is like, oh, gross, you're a servant. Get away from me, which I was kind of I didn't see that coming of him, because usually when that happens in these adaptations. I'm not saying that

as a bad thing. I think we will get there, of like why, I thought it was kind of interesting, but usually I feel like when it's revealed that she's a servant, he's like, but I'm so in love, I don't even care. You're not like the other poor people. So I think it's interesting that he still has a classist reaction and then has to like look withins Yeah,

I see what you're saying. But that also makes them getting back together harder to digest, because he's so awful to her in that moment that I'm like, well, I don't want her to take him back. With ten minutes left on the run time, you're just like, oh, he's like this class is this late in the movie? Yikes? But yeah, I don't know, I think there's a discussion. Yeah,

I literally I feel like I have blinders on. Right comes through that because he's so terrible to her, But I just get so excited because I think, because spoiler that she saved herself, right, yes, and then he's there and I'm like, she did on her own, but like, also get together because I'm already interested, so allowed to do this. But I'm like, Okay, you were really bad there.

I hope you at least apologize directly, for which we do see him do, and then he also needs to continue to apologize and make amends for a long time after that. Yeah, I agree, Um, okay, So he's like, oh, gross, get away from me. Danielle runs off, and then Da Vinci goes to Henry and he's like, you're a fool and an asshole and you don't deserve her. Danielle back at the manner she's humiliated and has no choice but

to resume being a servant to the Baroness. That is, until the Baroness sells Danielle to that creepy guy, Monsieur the Pew so gross, horrible, but he says to her at some point in the movie, like you maybe three times or two times my junior child child. But you know I can, I can, Like he says, I'm well endowed you and I can train you like a horse

or something. And I'm like, you just called her a child and then also said you wanted her in the exact disgusting it's intent like, and I feel like it is kind of an example of like that we had a name, this trope of like one man being so egregiously evil that a guy that maybe isn't so great looks so good by comparison, that we're not going to examine the things that are, you know, maybe the deep

seated classism that he just yelled in your face. Well, at least he's not Peppe Lapu, right, Like, at least he's not threatening to rape you, right right. I mean, I think it is like a trope that is grounded in like the idea that two things can't be true at the same time, where it's like there's only one kind of bad man and it's the worst man imaginable, right, yes, bad. So meanwhile, Henry is about to get married to the Spanish princess, something that she also very much does not want.

So then Henry is like you know what, screw this, We're not doing this. He releases her, and then he sets off to find Danielle, who, meanwhile, like you said, he manages to escape from Lipu by grabbing his ward and daggers and being like, let me go or I will gut you. She then leaves the castle and who is there but Prince Henry, and he apologizes and proposes

marriage and she says yes. Then we see the Baroness and Marguerite get their come up and basically they're invited to the castle thinking that the prince will propose to Marguerite, but instead they see that Danielle is the princes his wife, and the Baroness and Marguerite are shown the same mercy that they showed to Danielle a k A. They are turned into servants at the castle, and then Danielle and Henry live happily ever after. And the point is they lived.

I just need to take a second because the reveal that they're married and he's like, Marguerite, I do believe you've met my wife. She said about okay, and then and then I just it's my favorite scene in the entire movie, because Angelica Houston is acted down okay, and she's like and and then the queen is like, oh, like, if there's nobody here to defend you, like, it's over for you girl. And then she's like, oh, everybody's out

of town, which great. Un She's like, She's like, yeah, there there must be a lot of people out of town. And then here comes Danielle and she's like, I'm gonna let you know that I'm never gonna thank of you again at for this moment, but you won't think of me every day for the rest of your life. What to read? First of all, he read her hard Miranda's and then she was like how long will that be? And Danielle was like, I'm just gonna give you the

same creement that you gave me. And it is just I just love this scene so much that I feel like I felt I felt justified, like he was Melanie Lindskey over here, just minding her business, not in it at all. And then like the two most terrible people were not the most but like two of the terrible people to Danielle actually get what they deserve. Although personally

I wanted to see them fist fight. I wanted Danielle to fist fight bargay like that would have been perfect, it would have fit right, like when she punched her. I think the first time that I watched it as a kid, I like we wound it so many times because even then I was like, yes, she deserved what was coming to her. She really did. Yeah, that wholes like the baroness gets her come up and chunk at

the end, is so satisfying. Yeah, my god, I think maybe the most satisfying of the adaptations that Yeah covered, because it's like a weighted blanket. I feel like I'm like, yes, I want to rest here for a while. You see what happened, because it's like wild. I think for me that they do that is really smart is they have small moments where they're trying to like humanize her, you know, when she's like kind to Danielle, but like for two

seconds and then it's over. I think it's so smart because then they're like, oh, no, she kind of is nice to her, but not really because and I think it is because when the dad died, he turned to daniel and said I love you, and she was sick about it and had been sick about it ever since. Yeah. I do like the way that the stepmother character. Her

behavior is contextualized more than in other adaptations. I think that was like really effective, but still doesn't like I like the idea that let's like they contextualize her behavior, but they don't excuse it, which I feel like it's a tough needle to thread that this movie does really well. For sure, Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and discuss it further and we're back, all right, we actually we start there's so much to talk about

with this movie. Well, we were just talking about Angeloicia Houston's stepmother arc. Maybe maybe we can start there, because I think that it's a really interesting approach to the character. That again, it's like so much of what this movie is doing seems like so built into the story that it doesn't feel forced, and it makes it even more

kind of like why don't more adaptations attempt this? Because we see that I mean in terms of like what the stepmother's predicament is, I feel like sometimes a Cinderella story, unfortunately, is an example of this. Her predicament is presented very much in a void and there's no context to like why is she mean, what is her social status? Like what? Or like and so because of the era, like the time and place this movie takes place in it, it's

very very clear that like this is her option. Marrying Danielle's dad is her way to secure a life for her and her daughters. And it seems to me, I mean, I'm curious of what you both think. It felt like to me that the context for why she is so cruel to Danielle in this adaptation is that, like, it almost seems like Danielle is like this triggering presence for her that she wants to like suppress, and she she's so upset that she's kind of like when when her

husband dies. She views this as like, well, now I'm stuck here and now I'm fucked, and I'm going to punish any reminder of the fact that this is how I feel, and so she kind of weaponizes those feelings

against Danielle. Yeah, yeah, I see that as well. I think the thing that I find really interesting is the fact that she seemed to genuinely like him, right, Yeah, Because oftentimes in these adaptations, the stop mom doesn't seem to care that much about the person who died, you know, And I think in this one, you get little pieces of that, which is a nice juxtaposition between the King and the Queen Andy and these parents who don't seem

to like each other at all. Whereas, like you see in the very beginning when when the dad dies, she's like, well, don't leave me here, like they're they're flirty like before he gets to leave there like flirting with each other, and and like he leaves and she's devastated. But I think because she takes it out on Danielle, because Danielle was the last person he said I love you too. It's sort of the gates that love that she has,

you know, but it's me that it's there. It's just like none of it matters because you're trashed this little girl who was just like eight, You're just mean her immediately. It's I think it's like really really well done of like yeah, like you are. You do get why she is upset, but like every choice she makes is cruel and wrong, and I don't know, I's like that's more nuanced than you get in most of these adaptations. I really,

I really liked it. Also, I was kind of curious of like there's always this I don't know, and I guess that no real Cinderella story like really takes a look at this. But I mean, we're at the beginning of every Cinderella adaptation, we're presented with like two sets of single parents, and it's always implied like the single dad is doing an amazing job. Um, which I think is cool in one way because there's not a lot of single dads in movies at all, especially single dads

of daughters. But then but then on the other hand, it's like presenting a single moms as like a single mom will raise her daughters to be vain and social climate and she sucks. I don't really, I mean, that's just something. Maybe it's just because we've watched so many of these so close together, but yeah, I'm sure there are there are plenty of exceptions to that, but yeah,

for sure. But it is something that the other Cinderella adaptation, including the two we covered on the Matreon, they do this thing where their context or their explanation for why the stepmother is awful is that she's extremely vain and obsessed with looking young and jealous of Cinderella and her youthful beauty because that's just how older women are, rather than examining anything more thoughtfully than that, and this movie doesn't take that route, which I appreciated. Yeah, I don't know.

I like there's I think it is partly Angelica Houston's performance and her amazing eyebrow acting and just like the presence she commands on screen and then also do yeah, just the way that character was written worked way better

for me than most other Cinderella adaptations. The thing that I think is interesting why there when she calls Danielle into her room to brush her hair, she talks about like how her mom made her brush her hair a bunch of times, and like there's a hint of like, oh my mom never thought I was good enough, And it's like you're pouring that onto Danielle, who was literally

again just a child when you met her. And I just find it to be interesting because angelo Ka Houston really does give this character depth in a way that we haven't seen even in you know, My Beloved Rogers and Hamberstein Cinderella. The most we got out of Bernard that Peters is a nice song, you know, but I

think it's a really good song, you know. Don't get me wrong, but I do find that, like Drew did a really good job I don't know who wrote it, but I know that she that was like one of her first films for the production, but she did a really good job of like humanizing her in a way. And I remember reading an interview where she said people kept calling her not to do it. They didn't want her to do the movie at all. They said that it was a really bad were move, and I was like, well,

thank god you didn't listen. But yeah, I just I think that this movie is really smart because it gives depth to characters that we are at this point I've already seen as like caricatures of themselves really and of this idea of a person, and it lets them just be people. And that spans across basically all the major characters.

The last thing I wanted to say about the Baroness was that I also found it fascinating that she targets her cruelness depending on who she's talking to and based on how she perceives that person can elevate her status

or elevate her situation in some way. Because she's like very supportive of her daughter Marguerite, because she perceives Marguerite as someone who's gonna help her move to the palace or just like she's whatever, yeah, Whereas the Baroness is extremely cruel to her other daughter, Jacqueline Melanie Lynsky's character. One thing that she continually does to her is like body and food shame her, where she tries to restrict

Jacqueline's food intake. She implies that she is not pretty enough to warrant the attention of this is someone like a prince um. She says that she's only going to the ball for the food. And I appreciate that the movie frames this behavior as despicable, which is something that most movies of the late nineties weren't doing, because so much of the media from this era is like very body shamy, very fat shamy, not at all challenging that

type of normative thinking when it comes to bodies. It was just like a given, yeah, I did, yeah, my last that on on the Baroness, and then maybe we should just go into the step sister stuff as well while we're in this area. But I again, just with the amount of like nuance and subtlety that is very effortless to this movie, it doesn't feel like you're being you know, bashed over the head with it at all. Which sometimes updated fairy tales can feel and this one doesn't.

Um but I like that. Yeah, I mean going back to what you were saying, Kia about the Baroness implying that her mother was cruel to her, and like getting that context and seeing that Danielle you know, that registers for her and she knows like okay, like maybe there's a moment of empathy, but also in that same moment, the Baroness is you know, weaponizing that same behavior against Danielle,

and I like that. In the end, there's that other scene where you know, it's whatever very end of second act, all is lost, but Danielle like turns to the Baroness and it's like did you ever love me at all?

And like it makes sense. I feel like sometimes with like these like feminist updates of classic characters, they're not allowed those moments of like emotional vulnerability that is so human and it's like it's almost like they're emotionally marry suing where they're like, yeah, I can experience all the trauma in the world and like it doesn't affect at all, or it's like in that moment, it's it's a small thing, but it's like Yeah, of course Danielle would feel like this.

She's lived with this woman for you know, decades and never experienced affection, and of course that's traumatic, and of course, you know, deep down a lot of people would want to believe that there was some love there and and I like that all of that happens, and Danielle does seem to understand the context of her stepmother and still is like, well, I don't forgive you. Like that's another

huge thing that I feel. I feel like, I mean, it's very character to character, and the idea of forgiveness is so you know, there's just so much to talk about, and I feel like there's ways you can forgive people that are good for your mental health. But it's like Danielle's like, no, I don't forgive you. It's like, I

don't even do that to the brig. Yeah, it's agree because I think even in that moment that you're talking about specifically where she asks her like, was there ever a moment you can see something this is Angelica Houston again just being so good at her job, where like something in her eye changes for like a millisecond and then she's like no, I mean, how can anybody a pebble in their shoe, but it's like for a millisecond you can tell she like even when and she does it.

She does it twice in the movie, I think, once in that scene where like she like looks at her like kind of but also, I'm not gonna let you know that before she tells her about the pebble on the shoe, and then again when she's brushing her hair and she's like, come here, child, like, let me look at you. And she looks at her and her face softens for like again a tenth of a second, and then she's right back to being horrible. Yeah. Oh that was so effective to me because she's like, oh, you

have so much of your father in you. And Danielle is very clearly touched by this and takes it as a as a great compliment. And as soon as the Baroness realizes that that she has done something to like accidentally compliment Danielle, she does a one eighty and she's like, well, yeah, it's because you have such masculine features, and you know, you being raised by a man made it so that you're built for hard labor and all this mean stuff.

Just like anytime she starts to have a feeling, she turns mean and like goes to the extent of like I'm having a feeling and so I'm going to sell you to a molester, Like she is truly evil, And I liked. I do like that that the movie doesn't shy away from like how awful she can be. Yeah, and I love that. The whole thing was like, oh my god, you ride to the Queen about Danielle being like so Badariel being shipped away that was the big

egregious name for them. It's like you lied to the queen somebody like safer from being shipped after the inher does And I'm like, she's done so much worse than lie to you like about daniel being shipped away, like she beat her, Like they don't show it on the on the version where they're streaming, they skip past it, But on the DVD, if I can find it, they actually like you can hear her being beat oh, because you see the aftermath of her getting lashed and like

the wounds that she has on her back. So in the DVD version you actually see that. You can't see it, but you hear you hear Oh, I see okay, here yeah, which makes it even worse. Yes, she's wrong. This movie goes there, much like Degrassive it goes there. Sorry, I love it was beautiful to all the Degraphy fans. I remember that tagline from two thousand and five six to Gussie, it goes there. Um, okay, let's get because we're kind of in this area of the story. Anyways, let's talk

a little bit about Marguerite and Jacqueline. I don't really know how much there is to talk about Margarite. Like, I think it's interesting that in all of these adaptations there's always like the alpha stepsister and the beta step sister as it's presented to us and Marguerite. I think that what is like more clearly telegraphed in Marguerite's case is that, yes, she is the favorite daughter by her mother. But like you were saying, Caitlin, it's just because her

mother sees her as a means to an end. It's not actually like I love my daughter so much and I hate my other daughter. Like it's clear that the Baroness is going to be kind to anyone she finds useful, and Marguerite is the daughter she finds useful, and you can already see like there's just like this wild generational trauma story going on with them, because you can already see Marguerite taking on those negative qualities that her mother has to get through her life. So I have so

many thoughts. Okay, so Marguerite the acter she plays Marguerite, I wish her the best in life. I hope that she's prospering. But Marguerite the character, oh, I want the worst. I have never in my life. I was like, if I could jump into this TV and cite her, I would do it because I find that like the thing that I find the most interesting about the two step sisters is that the Baroness looks the most like Jacky

right to me, it looks nothing like Marguerite. And I think that's on purpose, because I think it's basically a commentary about how the aaronas wants to be so far removed from herself that it makes sense that she has this idea of who she should be and what her life should be like. And Marguarite is closer to that than Jacqueline is, because she's sort of the like Jacqueline is sort of a mirror to her physically of what like she is now and Marguarite can be the thing

that she's after. But I do find very interesting is the relationship between Marguarite and Jacqueline. Like Margarite is so nasty to her in like small ways, you know, not only is the mom calling her fat and saying she's only there for the food, Margarite is laughing and like going along with it. And there's also a point in the movie that I don't think we talked about where Danielle is like hungover and the mom's like, go make

us breakfast or eggs or whatever. It was like approach take something, and she's like, you have two hands, go do it yourself. And they made Jacqueline go do it. She's like, oh, go boil the water like you though, And Jack was like, so what about Danielle, which I think was like a moment for her, But I still love her to pieces because I think she showed up for her what she needed to. But I also find it really funny how immediately with Danielle was like I'm

not getting up, don't make me do it. She was like okay, well, Jaquil, and you know what you have to do. I get in the kitchen, you know, go brow the water. And I just think that that's so funny because even though that it's often the tropher is like there's one good daughter and one bad one. It's interesting how immediately she's treated as close to Danielle as possible when Danielle was like predisposed or not there or something,

which I think also bonds both Danielle and Jacqueline. I love every word of that's honestly, I hadn't considered the specific but but it totally tracks like I hadn't considered why the Baroness is so particularly aggressive to its Jacqueline, and that totally scans for me as to like why she would turn on And I think if that's something that happens in real life all the time, where it's like, you know, emotionally unhealthy people tend to lash out against

people who remind them of themselves if they're a self clathing person, which clearly the Baroness has a lot of issues with. I mean, you know, it's medieval France and they're not going to therapy is so all those emotions are just getting sharp blasted out at every other woman in the area. Um. I believe that's a medical term and Jacqueline is getting I mean, Danielle and Jacqueline are getting sprayed with the most shart. So with that in mind, uh, but I do like and and this is the only

I think. Let me know if I'm missing here, but I think that this is the only adaptation that gives the quote un quote beta sister a story and and not just a story, but an arc that ends with her better off and like gone on this emotional journey where she's rejecting, you know, the cruel behavior of her

own mother. I thought it was really great, and it's like I feel like it's also I don't know, I mean, I feel like it's implied at the end of like, well, Jacqueline and Danielle aren't going to be like best friends, but they're not. And but they're not gonna like hang out because why you know, right, Like I wouldn't want to hear out what they're either. But I feel like they set it up really well because Jacqueline is the one that tends to her after her mom beats her.

Jacqueline is the one that's like, I'll never forget how Marguerite's legs throw up between like that, and they're like laughing. Well, she's taking care of her. And I think that, aside from the two older lady servants that Dannielle was closest to, no one takes care of Daniel right aside from those

two and like goose stuff. And I think it was really smart of them to do that so that by the time we get to a place where Okay, we're gonna punish Marguerite and the baroness, like what do we do with Jacqueline, It's like, oh, it makes sense to just pop her off on the side. She has her own little maybe romance. There's a lot of nods to that, which I thought was really sweet. I thought I thought

that was fun. And I just think that I think that their relationship to each other is more like, I'm gonna let you go of your life, have your fun with you know, my man's right hand man, do whatever y'all want. I'm just gonna go live happily and right after. But your sister and your mom are not going to

get the same treatment. Yeah, I both step sisters. The way they're characterized, I thought was really well done in the sense that Marguerite was the type of shitty person that that is who benefits from her mother favoring her over her sister, and a shitty person will revel in that rather than make any attempt to like stand up for her sister who's being abused and mistreated. And that's just the type of person that Marguerite is, And there are plenty of people like that in real life, so

it doesn't seem like a stretcher. Doesn't seem like, you know, oh, no one is this cruel in real life. These people exist. And then with Jacqueline, she is used to this upscale life of coming from noble blood, so she's still like in a station above Danielle, but is being similarly mistreated by her mother and her sister, and we just kind

of see how that is chipping away at her. So even though like, I don't know, like that worked for me as far as she isn't as quick to like jump to Danielle's defense at first, because again she's also benefiting from this life of more of like higher class and noble blood and all of that stuff. But then as time goes on and like the way she's mistreated makes her kind of realize, oh, I'm actually royal blood.

Wise i am quote unquote elevated above Danielle. But as far as like the way I'm treated, we're basically peers. So it actually makes sense for me to ally myself with Danielle and try to like get out of this abusive situation. And this is all done with like relatively little screen time to like I feel like it's like

she's characterized so effectively and such. I feel like at the time we've spent talking about her is maybe the amount of time she's on screen for the whole Yeah, I mean, and it's like whatever that I I really enjoy the like the couple of you know, nineties movie one liners you get towards the end of the movie and she gets one of them where you know, the Baroness turns to her and then you Jacqueline says, I'm only here for the food, and then you're like, okay.

So she got her mic drop moment. Danielle gets her mic drop moment, like everyone's dropping their little microphones against the baroness and then the baroness like the floor opens up and she goes to work, you know, for the first time in her life. Um, but it's satisfied. Yeah, I thought, like, there's so much more to the stepmother and stepsisters in a way that is effective and also doesn't let them get away with their ship, which not easy to do. I thought it was awesome. Yeah, yeah,

I think so too. And I feel like a lot of movies in general, but a lot of Cinderella movies now are like we have to redeem you know, the stepmom and make them like likable and and I'm like, I like, I I prefer when we have movies in general where like you just like it would be bad without having to feel like, oh, let me redeem them, Like I think I felt that way about the movie Coulola. I felt like we didn't really need to. We don't

need to redeem her. And I think that like, just let her be bad, like either way, Like I'm sorry that her mom died because dalmatians attacked her, like were winning because she didn't get out of the way. But that happens, I haven't seen it. That's so goofy. We don't want to swallow you. Then I'm sorry. No, that just makes me laugh so much? Is it? Is? It like there's and they're serious about it. They're like, she

has dalmatian related trauma. They're so serious about it like maybe the most serious so funn I mean, when someone goes that one to one, I'm like, you know what, I guess I gotta hand it to you because that is like a level of ridiculous that wouldn't have even occurred to me, right, And so I like, yeah, I think about what you said Kate were where it's like they're allowed to be evil without Daniel being like, well, I forgive you, you know, because life's too short, Like yeah,

maybe it is, but just let people be like, but it's okay for people to not forgive someone who has hurt them as much as and then this is like years and years and years are built that hurt you. And they're like, no, you don't have to forgive her. You don't have to be like, oh, you know, she learned her lesson and blah blah blah blah blah. But also I think that something really important to note about Margarite is that immediately Margorite was like, what have you done? Mother?

Like I can't believe you. The queen looks like, you know, like you're gonna be shaped up for the Americas, Like I can't believe that you all did this to this girl. And to like me specifically the Queen speaking of course, and it's just like so funny to me because it does show how different Margarite is to Jacquillen, where it's like, I'm gonna immediately turn on you and hopes that something is going to happen that will be better for me, and then they end up in the same spot and

the Baroness is like, I'm royalty or something. When she tells her to go do something, I'm management. Yeah, management, that's what she's like. No, you're not. You're the same as me, nobody. It's just really smartly done. Yeah, I love it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're back. Should we get into Danielle. Let's talk about Danielle. Let's just

do it. The first thing that stood out to I mean, there's a lot we've we've obviously been discussing her the whole episode, but something that I again just like adaptation wise and character wise. I really like that this script

updates the Cinderella character to like she saves herself. She is I think, like very intelligent and capable in a way that isn't Mary suing her we don't see her suddenly knowing how to sword fight when there'd be no reason that you know how to sword fight stuff like that.

But also, like, something that is so tricky about adapting this fairy tale is that there's a core gentleness and kindness attributed to Cinderella that I think is a little at odds with how a lot of nineties heroines were presented. But this movie like has it all of the ways in a way that I thought was like really unusual and cool. Of like, Danielle is very motivated, she's very empathetic, she is very active, she liberates herself, but also she has a very patient and gentle and kind nature but

is also strong. I just thought it was like really cool and well done, and you just don't see a lot of characters that can embody all of those things when there's so many people who are like totally yeah. And I also really really love her relationship with but I think the addition of that is so special because she's like, first of all, here's this man, no interest, we have no there's no tension between us. It's romantic. He's just my friend. I can like talk to him

about this prince. But also you know, tease him about like you know, beating him up or beating him at games, and like even when they're like their kids. And the reason that her outfit is messed up in the beginnings because she was playing with him and hanging out and like he supported her decisions throughout, like when she was like, I'm going to go into town and like get more respect, and he was like, I wouldn't suggested, but I'm also not gonna, you know, keep you from doing it. Here,

let me fix your hair. Like I just think that the addition of him is so nice because she literally at this point has no one else, you know, except for like the two older ladies. And in the same way, it's like I feel like sometimes with the Gustav character or like whatever, the when people who are not the same gender are best friends, it's always implied that one of them is like pining for the other, and it's like your soul made is and it's like Gustav is like, no,

this is my friend, like my friend. I will support her if she hits the fan, I will bring Leonardo da Vinci into the equation as a friend. It's nice, Yeah, I like that, And that's just like an un it doesn't even need to be addressed because it's just like

it's clearly a strong friendship. I love it. Yeah, I agree, And I like that that like kind of her kindness and her empathetic nature is used in this story to address class concerns where which I think is like such a good use of that, like classically Cinderella quality that I feel like is used in other adaptations to make her very demurred and to kind of flatten out her personality, but in this the way it's used in this screenplay, like it completely elevates her and gives her this mission

that is completely you know, unrelated to a relationship, and it makes total sense because she is being treated like garbage by a stepparent who is very fixated on class in a very negative way. So of course these are concerns and her and the main people that she interacts

with our servants, who are being actively oppressed. And so it's like I thought that the class unlike the well meaning but pretty clunky attempt to address class in Ella Enchanted, which is the other adaptation where it comes up, I felt like the way that class issues and the way that Danielle approaches class issues in this movie was really clear and for the most part, like really really effective.

I completely agree. Danielle is like a leftist president of her local chapter of the d s A. Like, yeah, she's medieval friends d s A. She's like her various monologues. I wrote a lot of them down because I was just like, good, this is some good stuff. She's saying stuff like, you know, you can't deny people access to education and a means to survive and then punish them when they have no choice but to become thieves. And then Henry is like, wow, I see your point. I'll

release this Maurice guy. And then she's like, yeah, okay, well you released him, but did you even give a second thought to the several other people who had you had imprisoned and like what about them? And I was like, holy sh it, Like I wasn't expecting that at all. I love it. She basically is like she's like performative. More more, she tells him she's like, you've been born with privilege when with that comes specific obligations, which is the same thing that his mother said to him earlier.

But his mother meant, your obligation is to marry royalty and become a king Danielle. When she says it, she means that you have to use your elevated status and your position of privilege to do good in the world, which is why I don't hate that. Like at the end of the movie, after she's like been, you know, monologueing about leftist issues and class inequality, that she then becomes a princess, I'm like, Okay, well, at least she's probably going to use her new station to enact change

and do good in the world. I mean, that's what they all say. But best I think she might go because she got him to invite the thieves to the ball and like, didn't they implement like a library that everybody could go to. Some stuff was happening even before she became I'm biased, obviously, but even before she's good,

she's great. She's everything he does. Prince Henry does say like, I have this this great idea, I'm going to start a university that anyone can tend, regardless of their station in life, and then he tells Danielle about it and says that she inspired him. So he's like acknowledging that her ideology is influencing him, not enough that he doesn't scream at her to get out of his face when she's outed as a servant and a commoner at the ball, which is like, okay, sir, did you learn nothing? We

all have some growing to do. It's so like, I think it's interesting how because I that's maybe like like maybe that's too real where but I like like the issue of class and the fact that Danielle is very confident and passionate about her views on class is part of what attracts the prince to her. But it first it's in this way that is like, oh god, it doesn't feel good to see on screen, where it's like he's drawn to her because he's like, oh, you're so

passionate about this, this and this. That's so hot to me that you care about something. But then it's like it's hot to him to an extent, like you know, like once it becomes intrusive to his life, he shuts down and like once he's like, oh, you're not like a rich girl that cares about the poor, You're a

poor girl that cares about the poor. Fuck you, Like I don't know, like I it just I I thought that there was a lot going on with the Prince's you know, class awakening, which I would argue is not fully complete by the end of the movie, and it's not supposed to be. You needed to happen earlier in the movie, or they needed to find a way to add something on the end of it to where it made sense that he was like, all right, my dad,

I was wild. And basically what I mean is that everybody should should, you know, be much more equal, and we should have opportunities to everyone. Because just ending it on, like I love you and I'm gonna love you and I'm just gonna deal with you. Love it, you know what I mean, right right, Like it's like, oh, this is a cute quality of my wife's that I like, she gives a shit about poor people. Like it's like, all right, which is you know, classic rich guy behavior.

I don't love it anyways. Uh yeah him him said, like, I confess the plight of the everyday rustic bores me. Blah blah blah. What I do like, even though I think that, yeah, the decision for him to really publicly humiliate her when he finds out that she is not missus upper middle class or whatever the funk he thought she was. I was just like, if you're gonna make that choice, he's got to really give a spectacular apology,

which doesn't really happen. But I do like that. It's not like I was a little worried because I feel like this is kind of like an ell enchanted thing too. Of you know, Danielle is definitely the strongest character in terms of like turning his head to the clear class issues. And I mean there's like another great quote from her where she's like, you claim to love this land, but you don't love the people who make it what it is, Like what the fuck? What are you talk like? The

working classes makes the land what it is. But there are like I was worried that it's like, oh, it's just her that's gonna wake him up to this stuff, which kind of like I feel like feeds into a narrative of like I'm fixing him. But there's also other elements that are bringing Like I feel like that's how the da Vinci character is used pretty effectively. It's like there's the Princes encountering class issues because he's just out in the world for the first time Jasmine style, and

like Danielle is a huge part of that. But She's not the only part of that, so it's like he's kind of on this whole side quest journey. And I like that it was characterized of like it's not just her,

but she's a part of it. Yeah, that's what doesn't work for me quite so well, is that I do appreciate that what he likes about her is her passion and intelligence and conviction, which is more than you can say for most romantic storylines in most movies across genres where you're we talked about this all the time on the podcast, where it's like we're not sure why they like each other aside from the fact that they are near each other and they're both attractive people. So at

least we get more about why he likes her. I'm not really sure why she likes him, especially because he is a pompous asshole for most of the movie and the part where she's like she's trying to like tell him that she is a commoner and like, you know, reveal her truth, she says something like, oh, why did you have to be so wonderful? And I'm thinking, like, was he so wonderful at any point? Caitlan, Listen, you can be a leftist and be addicted to dating pompous assholes. Yeah,

I'm not pulling, but she said that though. When he like right after, she's beaten up because I feel like, okay, I'm going to be an apologist for a second, but

ignorant for it. So basically when she says that to him, it's like whatever, she gets beat up because she was like gone the whole night with him, right, and like, yeah, he's a jerk, but like he wasn't a jerk, like for that whole time that night, right, So she probably on the high of that, right, because he was really laid it down, you know, he was sick, and she

was like, I am into it, right. I mean they also banter with each other, they go back and forth, and they like, you know, that's a vibe as well. So an apologist, I feel like, you know, based off of the whole night that they spend with the thieves, you know, when they're like drinking and playing a game which is like basically rock paper shoot, I think, yeah, you know, it's a vibe. So like that's why that's

why that's why she liked him. I think I think it's also because she can see his potential you know, it's like he's not all the way there yet, but like she's not trying. I don't think she has to fix him. I think she just just like bringing out the things that she thinks are already there. I don't know. I feel like I'm just obviously biased because this is like one of my favorite movies in the entire world. But I just feel like I see why she likes him. But I do think that he has a lot of

what to do. Yeah, I agree with that. Like I think that like in terms of like because this is a kids movie and it's like showing you how to you know, you do have to be careful of like how you model relationships and movies like this, and I don't think it's perfect in that way. And like I totally see what you're saying, Caitlin, of like telegraphing the children. That's like, well, sometimes the guy is a real fix her upper. But it's like that, like it gets a

little muddy. Somebody calls hip in Joanna like it all it all gets a little messy, and I wish it were a little more clear cut for that reason. But I also agree with you Kia that it's like she does I think that that is maybe what we're supposed to believe is like she sees potential in him and he It's interesting. I feel like his arc is not complete really at the end of the movie, but it's like he's started a journey that I hope continues. I don't know, like it's tricky, but also it's like, yeah,

I don't know. It seems like Pickens are slim in this neighborhood. She can now use she can like you know, like we were talking about, she can leverage the power and influence she now has to advance her own causes, and you know, hopefully her husband will stop, you know, Will will unlearn a lot of the behaviors he was brought up with, although you know, we all know how

that story ends every single time. He did start that university though, because the framing device mentions at the end like and this portrait by Leonardo da Vinci of Danielle to Barbarak hung in the university until the French Revolution, when it presumably was ripped down and burned by the proletariat, which I get, but also like it's such a pretty it's fair. I kind of want that would be like a very fun. I love when people have like subtle

fans stuff in their apartments like that. Having that painting would be fun as an ever after shout out, because that's a real painting. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. This is like grasping at straws here. But I do appreciate that he apologizes at the end, which, as we've discussed on a number of other episodes, oftentimes in a story that involves a hetero romantic relationship where the man has wronged the woman in some way, there's often not any apology, or if it is, it's a very kind

of empty one that is not satisfying. I would say that this apology, at least he says like I offered you the world, and at the first test of honor, I betrayed your trust. So he acknowledges that he sucked up real bad. I do think that he sucked up too bad, and that her coming around on his apology happens way too fast. But as to say, like I I don't oppose it happening. I just wish there was like a little less end of movie rushed. Yeah, yeah,

did it felt rushed? If they would have done it a little faster, like I think they could have cut the scene where he plays Kennis. If they cut that scene where he plays Kennis and pushed everything up, it would have made yeah and given her more time to like to digest or even talk with another character about it and that like face masks or something. Yeah. I do like that. Da Vinci shows up to the princess like you mother fucker. She's perfect and you hurt her

and you've sucked up so bad. I was like, yeah, da Vinci, Yeah, then you don't deserve her. And even he just like takes her shoe and he's like, here have it. It's in the rain. It's ruined though, but just symbolically, here's the most ingenious creative decision made of all time. Is Da Vinci as fairy Godmother? Sort of? I love it so much. It's great and I feel like I have to say this before anything else happens. But and I'm biased again, but Drew Barrymore was in

her broken bag. Okay, she was acting down. She's so good at being endearing and loving and you just root for her and you're like, why is this character not getting all the things that she deserves? Like who would you mean to her? She's perfect. And I just want to say, Drew, if your list man, I love you with my entire heart. Please know that you really did what you had to do. Oh Drew's listening. I feel

like Drew Barrymore would listen to a podcast. I feel like I think she would just to sort of put a bow in the Danielle stuff. I liked how again, how this movie um gives you like the nineties heroine stuff without Mary suing her. She's a very physically active character. She's going on quests, their quests of her own. She's not the sidekick in any capacity. There is a fight that the prince participates in that she, you know, characterwise doesn't participate in, but then she picks him up. In

that incredible shot, she picks him up. She gets into a fist fight with her step sister. She is like, she's about to get pepe lapew like, right, she fucking knife's pepe lapew. Possibly. Um. I just I liked that she was very physically active and capable without being you know, pandery Mary so decisions. I thought it was good. She who happens to the plot point doesn't happen to her exactly, but she's very yeah, he said, she's very active, always

doing something. It's really that's really nice to see because usually it's like they're just sitting and waiting for the ball. They're like hanging out, usually at the pie table, like is it the ball yet? Especially in like fairy tale stories and even like modern adaptations of fairy tale stories, a lot of them don't really make the princess character that active or they damsel her. But like was mentioned, she at no point really has to be saved by

a man. She saves Prince Henry from the band of thieves by carrying him off, and then at the end this was also mentioned, but when Prince Henry comes to rescue her from Monsieur qu she has already rescued herself, and they like just meet outside and she's like, what are you doing here? I love it. Yeah, Like it's so and it's not like I mean, it is kind of that's a big deal, but it's also like I did like the Prince's reaction where he wasn't like what like he was just like, oh great, like go back

inside so I can rescue you. Right. I thought that that was a really sweet moment um. Getting it to just really quick. I wanted to just like touch on the creepy benefactor character one more time. I feel like we we talked about it at the top a little bit, but just to like I was again, And I don't mean this is like a good or bad thing. I just was like surprised that this movie went there to the extent of like Danielle is being treated as her

stepmother's property. She is essentially sold to this creepy guy who we've seen attempt to prey on her before, and there's a real threat of rape in this scene, like he's repeatedly threatening to assault her. And then she's like I belong to no and at least of all you, and like saves herself. But I was I just wasn't expecting. I was expecting her to maybe get herself out of the tower, but Da Vinci gets her out of the tower, and then she has to save herself from something far

more terrifying, and I just wasn't expecting it. But I thought that the way that the story handled it was

pretty effective. Yeah, but espos because you know, like she's sold, like the stepman sold all the candlesticks, all the stuff that went missing to this man when I feel like, you know, it's not explicitly said, but it's implied, like she understands how gross he is to Danny, like what he's always implying, what he's hoping for with a child basically, and she's just like, I don't care, like still us.

You know, here's the candle things give me money, Like here's this since in exchange for you know, a person, but also all my items that my husband had, but I'm supposed to care about, Like, I don't care what any of that. I just want the thing that's going to propel me forward, which makes her even more evil then before under that context where you're like, you know, this man is creepy. He comes to the market every week. It's on daniel and you're just like, all right, cool,

say lest I'm just gonna, you know, let that ride. Yeah, I mean, it really just doubles down on how evil she is. And I think it's also part of the class commentary where she's so irresponsible with her money, like Danielle points out that she ignores the manner she blames

the servants for her debt. She sells the servants to pay her taxes and her debts pretends to have money to burn because there's a scene where like she's buying a brooch for Marguerite, and then yeah, all those like household things go missing, and she's accusing the servants of being thieves and like garnishes their wages until they're returned, knowing that she's the one who's selling those items off.

But it's very much like the shitty things that like shitty rich people do, blaming poor people for their problems. There are things that they're doing wrong. Yeah, and then and then punishing the working class in order like as a part of her scheme to fake it until she makes it, like she is actively punishing and treating people like they're her property. I hate it, but the movie hates it too, So there you go. I wanted to just give some quick contact on the production of this movie. Kia.

You mentioned that Drew Barrymore produced this movie and like really had to advocate for it being made, which is something she's repeatedly done throughout her career to you know, very you know, we you can listen to our Charlie's Angels episode if you want. We don't need to go there today. But I just thought this is a movie that was champion and brought to life by women and

queer people. So there you go. Directed by Andy Tennant, who was I believe out and married at the time this movie came out, but he also directed It Takes Two. He later direct Hitch. He's another example, along with Rob

Marshall of The Dancer and Kenny Ortega. Oh my God, for The Dancer to Director Pipeline, one of my favorite Pipelines because he's I mean, I could talk about him for a long time, but his debut was he was He's a background dancer in the original Greece and then like slowly worked as I don't know how The Dancer to Director Pipeline. I don't understand it, but I'm thrilled

it exists. He co writes the screenplay with two other writers, one of whom I forgot to look up, but he co writes it with Susannah Grant and another writer named Rick Parks. Susannah Grant is of particul Killer interest here because obviously she's the only credited female screenwriter, but Susannah Grant had previously written I mean, she read a lot of nineties heroines, and her debut is Pocahontas, which we will do an episode with down the line. That's a

whole thing. But she she would go on to write Aaron Brockovich. So we've covered Susannah Grant movie before with Alfred Molina. With Alfred Molina, she wrote other movies that I've seen, including In Her Shoes anyone remember that one? Yes? And then she also she wrote a series that came out. I mean she's still very much working. Um. She wrote that Netflix I think limited series Unbelievable. Um that came

out a couple of years that was really Yeah. So she's like a really you know, talented writer who seems like throughout her career has prioritized telling women's stories, so that, you know, good for her. And then it was also produced by two young producers that are both women. The two top credited producers are Morrel Saraya I hope I'm

saying that right and Tracy Trench. So yeah, it was just a movie that it sounds like, um, like you were saying, Kia that Drew Barrymore pushing for this movie to be made was one of in her like using her star power for good is a huge reason that this movie exists. And then it was very successful. I mean it made whatever. I had a twenty six million dollar budget and made nine million dollars at the box offices. So,

you know, thrilled for everyone involved. And I would love to read someone's thesis on the Dancer to director Pipeline what's going on there? And somebody's got to write it, whoever, whoever has written it or will write it, Please let

Jamie know, please. Uh. The last thing I wanted to mention about this movie, something that doesn't hold up as well as most of the other stuff in the movie, is the portrayal of Romani people, uh in the movie, which is a very stereotypical depiction of the way Romani people are often portrayed in media, which is they are thieves, they are criminals, their bandits, that kind of thing, which

this movie completely reinforces and doesn't challenge in any way. Yeah, that's a big that's a big bulge of this movie. Like what does I love it? I'm like, no, that's terrible, stop it, stop it stop. Um. Does anyone have any other thoughts about ever after? Um? Just that it's that horrible, terrible thing aside a masterpiece, and that I feel like

I want to see more. I want us to bring back the era of like letting female characters not forgive people who are them, Like, let's bring up back, let's let's let's keep going with that, please and thank you, Like, yes, I know I believe forgiven it blah blah blah. But also, let's let's normalize punching steps in the face, right We've

I've been circling around this idea for a while. I it first like really bothered me a toy story for but of like this trend right now, like we need to humanize all of our villains to the point where we forgive them by the end. And I'm like, m I do kind of miss pushing the villain off a cliff. Like I like the idea of not leaning on stereotypes and weaponizing a lot of identity against a villain, which obviously happens in fairy tales and Disney movies all the time.

But I also am like, if someone is behaving evil, you can have the context for it and you can push them off a cliff, or you can push them in the face. Some people are so awful that they don't deserve a dedemption, or they don't deserve forgiveness, and I would say that, especially the Baroness and Marguerite, their

behavior in this movie does not warrant redemption. So it's fine that they end up in a tub of purple dye and turn purple and which is I was like, this is totally a little sillier than I was expecting. I like that if I'd be a big fat liar it literally I was like, I was like, this is

giving me like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory violent. But yeah, I feel like that's my thing is that I wish that people would either read the script or watch the movie in terms of crafting villains where it's like you give them back story and you give them context, but you don't necessarily have to make them somehow a better person by the time that the ninety minutes or now at this point three hour movies o H. And this

movie us past the factal test with flying colors. There's so I mean, I think that the majority of interactions, with the exception of Danielle and Prince Henry, are between women, and unless they are about Prince Henry, usually just about what women are doing or how women are treating each other. I feel like the stepmother is sometimes the third party

being discussed in a lot of the things. Sometimes it's class issues, sometimes it's personal issues between women, Like there's no shortage of I think like almost every combination of women in this movie that could talk do for the most party. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And then as far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on how well the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, I think I would go four

on this one. Um, there's a lot of things that the movie does that I think are very effective and a good example of how to modernize and update a fairy tale story which usually have problems baked into them, but knowing how to do an adaptation effectively in a way that you're staying somewhat true to the source material but also putting a modern and even feminist spin on the tail where we do have a strongly motivated character who has leftist politics and is very passionate about them,

and is not motivated by like wanting to find a handsome prince. She is motivated by wanting to do good by her fellow human being. The way the romance unfolds, especially with Henry being a bit too pompous for most of the movie and then treating her like trash in the third act and then being like, oops, I saw her about that and she's like, that's okay, let's get married. Didn't work super well for me. But um, it is

a fairy tale movie, so I guess I'll suspend my disbelief. Um, the movie does only have white people in it, and I don't know what the demographics of like rural Renaissance era France was, but it's a fantasy movie. Like it is a fantasy movie, you can make those changes as well, exactly. So there's that, uh. And then the representation of Romani people is very stereotypical and harmful. But yeah, I think

there's a lot to really love about this movie. And I again, I think it like sets a good example of a modern retelling of a problematic fairy tale that does so much in the adaptation to make it actually like a feminist film. Yeah, i'd say I'd say that as well, who are you going to give your nipples to? I'll give one to Leonardo da Vinci, I'll give one

to the apple that gets thrown at Prince Henry. I'll give one to the Da Vinci code being Apple, and my final nipple to Angelica Houston's eyebrow acting love it. I'll meet you four. Um. I I agree with the glaring issue of the treatment of Romani people, the plot point of having Henry be extremely classes until two seconds

before the movie is over. It wasn't my favorite. Um. There could have been a plenty more racial and body diversity in particular this movie, which I think was like a huge miss, But there's so much being done right. I love that there are a lot of women hind this project to get it made. That makes perfect sense to me given what the movie is, and I love that it was successful and and really like, I don't know, it's my I think it's tied with Brandy Cinderella for

my favorite adaptation of Cinderella. Now, so Kia is just spreading the good word. I'm so glad I saw the spoofy Danielle forever. I hope her d s A chapter flourishes. So I'll go four nipples, one to Danielle, one to Jacqueline, one to Da Vinci for sure, and let's see, I'll give my last one to Gustav because he was he was a real one. He was a good friend, he was a writer guy. He was he really was. Really

what about you? I'm gonna echo your four because even though again it's my I love it with my whole heart, like I give it ten stars in my heart, but reality for nipples because of the same exact reasons, like the lack of diversity, which just so funny because you're still right, the lack of diversity, the way it treats the Romani people. And I hear what you're saying about Henry, but I feel like there were bits and pieces in there that like makes sense to me, but I get

the vibe. So basically, four nipples. I'm going to give my first nipple, as always to Danielle Drew Barry where we love you and you were in your bag. My second nipple will go to Angelica Houston because she was also in her bag. My third nipple will go specifically to the scene at the Very Young when there's the confrontation between the Queen, the King, the baroness and everybody

else in the town. And then my final nipple will go to Leonardo da Vinci because what like the second is just absolutely bonkers and I'm so just amazing, Like it is just the best. I love it so much. If you want to see a movie where a lot of things happen in a very short time, this is the movie for you to watch. It so amazing. Uh, and that's that's ever After, fox Kia. Thank you so much for for coming back and for bringing us this movie.

The Cinderella tradition holds strong. Yes, listen, thank you for having me back. First of all, and I'll have to think of another movie that I'm just obsessed with. Besides, I want to remember what you've already done. Then I'll come back for that's their movie that I'll just figure it out. But yes, I'm glad to have introduced you to ever After, the American classic. It's really ever After, a Cinderella story, but also a story about like shouting on one persons and she's kind of good to the end.

Thank you. I think that that did need to come back. Before the end of the episode. Kalen hates sharts, which, yeah, I guess, sorry to shame anyone who's sharts sting right now. We have listeners who are charting right now, Caitlin, so can you chill out so you can starting but you're right, You're right. Um, where can we Where can we find you? Online? Um? I'm to online everywhere. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at Kia k h Underscore Maria m A. I'm also on

Tracebook at the Kia Brown. You can also see my work at Kia brown dot com. And I also again have a chicken's book coming out in August called Sam's Super Seeds, which I please, please please, would love for you to preorder because they're vital for authors and I feel like, if you have a kid in your life, you're gonna love this book. I love this book. I'm biased, but it's really good. Yes, I know I wrote it,

so it's like we're so stuked. I'm like, I'm so thrilled to I'm literally going to preorder it right now. I'm so excited. Adore you. And then you can follow us on social media at bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon, where again, we very recently covered two other Cinderella adaptations, Ella Enchanted and a Cinderella Story. Those can be found at patreon

dot com slash becketel Cast. It's five dollars a month and you get access to all the past backlog of episodes. So scoot on over to the Patreon and and have a ball. And you can get merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast if that is uh lined up with your personal desires. Okay, and with that genius outro um, let's go and live. They lived, We lived.