Edward Scissorhands with Maggie Mae Fish

show before? Oh cool, you're right. That's so funny because do you remember the first time we did a live shows maybe a year and a half ago now, and we're like, hey, is anyone putting her through the show before? And someone was like, what did not know where they were or what they were doing? Does that apply to anyone here? Has anyone not heard the show before? Don't

be shy? Okay, we got we got what We thank you so much, so you just get Your friends were like, come on, great, well welcome, sorry for what's about to happen? Oh man, well we should uh for you, We'll tell you what the show is about. So this is our podcast about the role of women in movies. Um, so we analyze it through the lens of the Bechdel test, which is what well, Jamie. The Bectel test is a

test that you apply to media, usually movies. It requires that a movie has two named, female identifying characters I know grows. They have to speak to each other, and their conversation cannot be about a man. Can we demo it? Let's demo it? If the lives how can we them on it? And stand? I want to do that? Everyone needs to see my costume? Yes, um, hey, Caitlin, Hey Jamie, do you stretch a lot? I? Actually no, I don't stretch enough. I would say, would you like to stretch

with me? Um? Do I have a choice? Yeah? I would love to stress. Still typically have a choice? Does can pass? All right? So that's kind of how great there's That's one of our more problematic passes. I'm gonna pose another question to the audience, which probably won't pass, depending on who answers. But another fun thing happens during our live shows sometimes where people have come and haven't seen the movie we're discussing. Has anyone here not seen

Edward scissor hands? Wow? Okay, we got to too great? They just raised their scissors into their I think that was funny. I always forgot I was gonna bring Okay, because Caitlin is cosplaying, is Edward is going to bring a handful of tacks and be like, I'm Jamie handful attacks. I don't think that would have translated very well on stage, you know what. I think you're wrong, but I do think that it wouldn't have been fun for an hour. So here we are talking about the portrayal of women

in a specific movie. But before we get into that, we're going to introduce our guests. She's a gem. She's such a gem. She's absolutely wonderful. She's a talented writer, she's a talented actor. She has an incredible series of video essays, one of which is on this exact movie. Please everyone give a warm welcome to Maggie may Fish. That was great. You nailed it. Okay, you nailed it. Now, Maggie, you are cosplaying as the houses in the movie. Yeah, yeah, houses,

and then the very bottom is the sexy housewife. Wow. Okay, so it's kind of a two for two. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was almost gonna dress up as the bully who gets stabbed by the hands, but I had no idea that that was Anthony Michael Hall. That his name, Yeah, yeah, like like jacked Anthony Michael You're like, why is he so puffy? I can never that name of that actor

in his face. I can never, And to this day, like you say Anthony Michael Hall, and I'm picturing like Rick moranis because I can't place his name with his face. He's like the nerd in all of the eighties John Hughes movies, and he does. He's the one who in is it Sixteen Candles where he has a passed out girl, like thrown over and everyone's like whoo, and we're like, what is happening. We're like, oh, that's rape. Yeah. And also he has one of my least favorite qualities in

a man, would just flesh colored hair. Yeah, blonde adult man is scary. All right, So let's talk about Maggie. What is your history your relationship with Edward scissor Hands the film and never dated? Uh? Yeah, I actually hadn't seen it until I was doing research for the Tim Burton video. I've seen a lot of other Tim Burton films, men, this one I just kind of skid past. I think because I got I get I got it. Like I saw the cover of the video and I was like,

I know this whole story. I know what happens, and so when I was watching it for research, I was right, I got it and I knew what happened. So this is like my third time seeing it, I think, getting ready for this. Yeah, all right, Jamie, what about you? This was one of my movies. This is my I know, this is I was this is okay. I would say that this qualifies as a very not like the Other Girls kind of movie, you know, like when you're thirteen

and you're just like, actually, I'm a little different. I didn't watch High School Musical. I'm home like flicking it to Mr Mr Sharps, like fully psychotic, purchasing the mergent hot topic, waiting for like my back bace to come off. That was like the vibe mine was like Danny Phantom, I think that was my Like, I would say, same category, the same category. Yeah, dark ghosts man, I think I just love the idea of a man who appears dead. Yeah, you're like, okay, I'm not gonna talk for a long time.

Come to mamma. He's a little bit shy, but he's also a little bit. He could kill you in a second. Like there's what a fun what a fun dichotomy? No, I had, I mean I had a and my mom. This was one of the movies. My mom was like frothing for like she like the second I turned thirteen for some for some reason, but she was just like, we have to watch it together, and like she like the whole time, She's like, look at him, is any handsome? Look look at his pointy hand that happens in the movie.

Like you have to suspend your disbelief a lot to appreciate the events of this story. But the thing you have to suspend your disbelief for the most is the fact that so many like horny housewives, are so turned on by sharp by murder, sharp weapons. It's just a kinky community. Maybe I I don't want to kink shame anyone who's into weapons as a kink, but I did find that interesting at least. What is your history with this? I don't think I had quite the same relationship as you, Jamie,

but very rare relationship. I don't think that you weren't blinking it. I think I probably thought maybe once or twice as a kid enjoyed it more as a teen, and then in college when I was like, I'm studying film, tim Burton is what an odd tour? Right? So I appreciated his films more about a decade ago, and didn't

we all? Yeah? I didn't we all? And then do you remember how the one day where Tim Burton was like, I think movies should be all white people, And we all woke up all at once and we're like, wait, does this guy suck? Like? And then we all went back and watched and stuff. We're like, wait, this guy Sun It's terrible. Yikes. Yeah, I really blew it. He really, but he'd been blowing it for his whole career so long that we all just you know, took it in stride.

The narrative of the mediocre man oh man. Twenty five years on, he's like, jokes on you. Yeah, he's directing the next five d Alls in Wonderlands and has five billion dollars. So I'm tired. Well shall I do Caitlin's famous recap Well response starting up in response started to got to a seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you so much. Okay, So the story of Edwards Scissor Hands, Well, first, I want to say, how today my notes page count, which is color coded for anyone who is curious, is we're

only at five today. It's gone up to eight, so no one cares. There's a there's a table. There's a table. Okay, there's charts, there's a map, is a pigraph an oil painting. Damn, that's wild. Holy sh it. First, I just want to say a movie about a young, naive, soft spoken non human who gets adopted into a nuclear family. He struggles to fit in and some of the neighbors don't like him. What is this Paddington? Okay, thank you, thank you for indulging me. Alright, So the story of ed Her Hands.

There's a framing device. At the very beginning we eat, we meet an older woman who tells granddaughter where snow comes from. I'm interrupting, Um, did we have to make one not to rider the old lady? Does she have to be an old makeup every time? I'm like, why was that choice? Just so we could see how ugly she gets when she gets older? To set up at the end where she is where they're like, why don't

you go see Mr? Sharp? And she's like, because I look like ship and also I guess I'm interrupting the interrupter, But it is wild to have a framing device of like a you know, like a grandma talking to her daughter, and then the movie is not at all about her. She's telling a story, just this one man story. I think that they're like, hey, for the Princess Bride, did this, let's try it? Yeah? Oh yeah, that thing do that. Mr Tim was like, yeah, let's give it a shot,

all right. So this older man starts to tell the story of what ends up being her family. Peg is her mom. She's a very sweet avon lady in a suburban community. One morning, she is trying to sell her Avon's and she's having a hard time, and she's like, wait, I think everyone's struggling with Avon's. They're stuck in we can't move past this perfectly clear, Yeah, read a book singular avon plural Avon's, right, Okay. She's trying to tell

her cosmetics and she's having a hard time. So she's like, hey, how about this haunted castle on the hill. They're gonna want my Avon's. And so she goes up there and she discovers Edward, who is sharp, a sharp dress man, he's leather. He's in leather. He's in all leather. He's a never nude. Oh my god, he's full of never nude. He puts on clothes over his leather clothes. He may not have a body. They don't really say, because he's not human. They're not might not. Is he just like

soup in there is? They're just oh, he's just more scissors. Oh, he's so shy. And throughout the movie we learn about his sort of origin story, which is that an inventor played by Vincent Price creates him basically but doesn't finish him because the step that you have to get before you get to the finished man a scissor that I

didn't realize that until this viewing. It's seen as like wait a second, Like this scene where there's like these flashbags and the inventor presents him with hands, and I was like, why does he have three hundred pairs of shears in for hands? And then he immediately skewers the new hands as his creator dies. But he it's weird. Is he a bad inventor? Like, yeah, it's a shitty inventor. Well,

he's playing god, that's for sure. It doesn't seem to care very much about what do we see that he's invented, because from what I could tell, it was a way to make cookies and reiss hands. Yeah yeah, and something's chopping, uh salary in the background for like a second. Yeah, it's like there's something it's attached to your man. It's it's a scissor, it's it's a blade. What a fucking idiot.

And all right, So we learned about Edward's history and he hasn't been socialized, like he's only ever lived in this castle. He's Tim Burton. He's Tim Burton. He's Tim Burton. It's like I love and directors they were like, okay, this person is like me, but like really hot. Okay, um lots. Me's basically me. That's my Impressionive's great. So Peg is like, I'll just I'll take you home. You'll

come and live with us in the community. So she brings him into her home where she lives with her husband, Bill, who I also as a teen did not realize was Alan Arkins. So that's exciting. So she's got her husband Bill and her two kids, Kevin and Kim. And then when Edwards sees a picture of Kim, which is one on a writer's character. He's like he gets turned on all of his scissors, all his scissors inside his leather

suits start to shift around. Well, he had he must have a circulatory system because he's always nicking his face bleed. You're being too nice. I don't think is there. I don't know. Look, I'm not a woman in stem but I do think he's got regular insights. But I don't know. We can discuss it. Did you see that inventor? You're probably full of like Celery, He's just a garbage disposal. Okay, So then yeah, Edwards all like, oh my god, I

love Kim. She's cute. And then whenever Kim meets Edwards, she's not too sure about him at first Fair he's scary. She has a boyfriend named Jim, who is a jerk. Yeah, but she's an I mean, she's like in an extremely toxic relationship. And you know that from like moment one moment one. Yeah, it's I feel like he's like because this movie came out and I feel it's like a leftover of like the eighties kind of bully trope where it's bullying to the point where it doesn't even make sense,

and it's grounded and nothing. He gets a gun, not to jump ahead, but he gets gun where he like hot. He screams at his friend to drive drunk for no reason. He's like like, like what it feels like? And again this is I guess jumping head. But it seems like the only way to justify, like Tim Burton's like, I hate bullies is to have the bully have a gun, like shooting at the weirdo so that the bird can kill the bully. Oh, I've got a hole. I've got

a whole little snip to snip with them. Anyways, Kim has a piece of ship boyfriend, right yeah, and now pretty soon all the desperate housewives of the neighborhood of are This movie is Paddington plus Desperate Housewives with also a little bit of beauty and the beast. Um. I think that sounds like a way better movie than the one that. So the women of the neighborhood are like, who's this new guy? And they're very excited about him because he's like disrupting the monoton He's a disuburban life.

He's like, uber, we can go anywhere now, Karen. So then he's like trimming their hedges. He's cutting the dogs furs, he's cutting women and the water. He's poking and snipping at everything. You name a fun neighborhood item, he snips it. But then things start to take a turn whenever Jim, the shitty boyfriend convinces Edward to rob his own house, Jim's own house, and then he Edward is the only one who gets caught. So everyone's like, oh, this Edward guy,

he's he's a bad guy. Actually we were wrong about him. And then they turn into the mob from Beauty and the Beast and seconds and then everyone forgets he's hot. Forget he's hot, but I went through the movie we were trying to fund Mr Sharp yesterday, like what far. But Kim doesn't forget because now she's starting to fall in love with him, so she basically, I guess he's sharp and around he's somehow less threatening with his knife hands than her shitty boyfriend, so she's like, I choose you.

And then the angry mob like cast him back up into the castle, and then Kim goes and like protects him basically by saying, oh, he died. Because there is a gunfight and the police are like, cool, we're not going to check ye peace. Cool. But now so Edward is back into seclusion. What did you say? He kills Anthony, he kills the shitty boyfriend and then immediately kisses Kim, and Kim was like, wow, that was awesome. I didn't just see a man. Thought it was death. Oh God.

And now it snows because he's all by himself and he's making ice sculptures. So sure. And then and then at the ending of like, why don't you see your grandma? Well, I look bad for you all. It's like an actual old woman wouldn't have looked bad. You just happened to be twenty year old when on a rider in a rubber suit, so you do look bad. Just take off

the suit. I imagine shuffle up the hill when we're on A writer like actually gets to that age, and then you're going to be able to compare the two of like the makeup they put on her versus actual old a writer. Why not forever? It's going to be hot forever. She's yeah, yeah, she's never going to get to that. I feel like they put her in old makeup in one of the Star Trek movies. To anyone know, Oh yeah, she's probably a hot second, she's what's the

faces Mama's bock? Is this a kink that people have? I want to see the writer, but it's like, oh, like in her forties, no video. So that's the story of Edward scissor Hands. Yeah, let's take a quick break and we will be right back. Let's jump into the discussion, Wow Saturday Night discourse. Let's start with the fact that there are a lot of female characters in this movie,

more than I remember. I sort of was just remembering Pegan Kim and I. I hadn't seen this movie in a couple of years, and I sort of forgot the horny housewife subplot, and so there there were more women than I remembered in this movie. Yeah. I found it hard to remember the women only because most the characters in this film are like stereotypes, very trophy, very trophy, very like, which makes sense because it's like a fairytale. She's retelling it, so it's more like, you know, memory

and distance. But everyone is a stereotype. So it's like including Kim in like the you know, because when you see that beginning shot of her, it's like she's a cheerleader, she's you know, and she's like with the jock who is drunk. And the last outfit she wears is actually this I only noticed it the last time, but it's uh,

it's an angel outfit. It like flares out, so her silhouette is of an angel as Edward scissor Hands is making the statute of I would love to see, okay, that that famous shot where Everard scissor Hands is doing his sharp thing and uh when on a rider wanders out and she's like no, no, no, and then it's snowing on her and do we know the shot? Okay, I would love to see that shot from like, I want to see a wide shot of because I think it would look fully psychic, like across the street they're like,

what is it over there? I'm sure it feels meaningful to them, looking kind of weird from over here. And then also during that scene, are we to believe that Alan Arkin is on the roof dude in the Christmas lights and then it's like there's a meaningful twirl happening on his own lawn. Maybe it be hot or if that was an old Manona writer dancing out in the street. She'll never go she's too insecure. She does say at the end of the movie that you can still catch

her dancing sometimes in the snow. But it's like if you throw an ice cube off a mountain, it doesn't get to the village, Like that's that's my weather. Burbank, which is yeah, Timburn based like this town off of the way. He felt like growing up in Burbank. Frank What what an awesome guy? Oh yeah. So there are quite a few female characters. Many of them are very trophy, you know, because you've got like the housewives, the religious

zealot lady. But the female characters are by and large way more active than any of the male characters, including Edward, who is supposed to be the protect of the movie. Things are happening to Edward, Yeah, and you react the very the very first time we see him in like a suburban setting, he hits his head on a car window, like in the first minute in a car, it's cue,

I guess what I watched? Like there's no word to go up from here, Like he doesn't know what windows are, what that's our main character or what that's what we speaking of cars? If the narrative is a car, he is not the driver. He is the passenger. That's a little thing I learned from the screenwriting, but I don't like to bring it up. Yeah, all the all the major choices in the movie are made by women, with maybe the exception of a few things that happened towards

the end with the boyfriend character. That. Yeah, the the how the movie ends is weird, right, did we have to kill I am not upset that we kill Anthony Michael Hall, but it just doesn't seem like it's that seems like a very abrupt change of pace for Edward where he's so gentle the whole movie, and then well, I mean, Anthony Michael Hall does have a gun. I don't know. Again, it's almost like it's it is weird

he has a gun. It's like he Tim Burton, the film is very like not much happens throughout most of it because of the way he writes it. And like the comedy that Tim Burton thinks is like funny, which is funny, is like this fish out of water and people don't really react to them. They kind of like accept to him. And like even when he gets called into the police, the next scene is the father just calmly explaining how we don't steal, like that's the biggest consequence. Uh,

like the midpoint of the film. So then the last like third feels crazy. I like, I like the okay. Another moment that is very dissonant is when he and Kim are standing at the window and then you know, she's like hold me and he's like I can't. I love the way, and then so much he's scared. Anyways, we'll talk about that part. But then for some reason, his like spiky sense goes off and he's like, Kevin's

about to get hit by a car. You're like what, And then he runs outside and Kevin's about to get hit by a car, and then he like saves Kevin and then goes it starts to like like I don't like Hibachi's Kevin's face so weird. I mean, well, first of all, Tim Burton has a story by credit for this movie, but the screenplay was written by a woman,

Caroline Thompson, who also has a story by credit. So it stands to reason that there are, you know, so many female characters, and even though this is Edwards story, it's really the women driving it, making all the main decisions because between like Peg choosing to go to the castle and then choosing to introduce this person into the community, and then and that the way the story ends is like, hey, let's try to integrate this other person into the community.

And it starts to work, and then the second it goes a little wrong, they're like, well, let's stop trying. Get this this weirdo back up into his house. The lesson is like, well, I guess if you don't feel accepted, you should just stay where you are forever. Homes move home. You know what movie does not have that assage? Paddington. And then like Kim is making a lot of active choices towards the end, like when she stands up for

him and then protects him, helps him at the very end. Yeah, so then he still gets I guess what we're supposed to believe is like the hero moment of killing Anthony Michael, Right, he kills someone at the end, everyone is like time to kiss yea a seventeen year old. He kills a sevent legally a child? Yeah, yeah, childhood seems like you had some pretty serious issues to work. Yeah, got a

flesh colored head to start, gets worse from there. I feel like though, even though a lot of the characters we see are very trophy like, very archetypal, I would argue that Peg and Kim are less so, and I appreciate their like relationship. I like that you see them generally getting a lot. You don't see what you like for a typical like cheerleader, popular girl, teen girl character.

You know, she can't get along with anyone. She hates all other women, some big beef right, So it's nicely, I guess you see representation of a positive Yeah, Peg

is my favorite character. I love Peg. So it's so hard to get a movie mom done well, Like I feel like moms are always you know, kind of getting you know, they're either not getting enough story or but the fact that the movie starts out with her in a series of choices like you're saying that she makes and her character is like more consistent than the protagonist for sure, where she's like she's all her instinct is

to always take care of people. She's one of the only women we see who has a job like she's Pegs type. She is. She really cares like she's when I whenever I rewatched this, she's the only one that I really PEG's back. Yeah, I hope back. I hope Arkin is like generous to her, like lover w Yeah, okay, Arkin goes down on Peg because she works hard and she's not she's good to everyone and so you know, pay you forward's Yeah. One thing I want to say about that character, Alan Arkin. Let me just read a

monologue that he gives, if you'll allow me. He's talking to Edward. He's like, you've been in that castle too long. You don't know anything about the wonderful world of teenage girls. They're all crazy. I don't know what it is. They reach a certain age, they developed these gland things, their bodies swell up, they go crazy. I try not to think about it. It seems like a good dad. Yeah yeah, it seems like he's just there for her daughter in

every hard turn. The only thing that I will defend that monologue is is it is supposed to be silly. That character is supposed to look And that scene ends with the dad giving Edward a Mike hard. He says it's not really, but he says it's lemonade. Whiskey's either way, it's hard. Mike's hard, lemonade blood orange flavors and He's like, I know, Deadpools on the camp, but try to try to grit your teeth through that and enjoy the Mike's hard.

It's a good beverage. Don't hold Deadpool, you know whatever. Even in they were gritting their teeth through the Deadpool franchise. It's been going on. One thing I wanted to bring up was the scissor Hands as a disability. Basically, I just want to say that there is almost no visibility of people with disabilities in mainstream movies. Edwards scissor hands are presented as a disability of sorts. We see him struggling to do different tasks. We have different characters being like, hey,

don't let anyone tell you you're handicapped, you know. They're like, I have a doctor friend, who can you know, help you out and fix this. While it's interesting and important to show and represent, you know, the types of obstacles and or microaggressions that people with disabilities might have to deal with, it's frustrating that one of the few movies that portrays a character with a disability does not have

a real disability to give visibility to. And also like ends up with the person with the disability being excommunicated.

But and then before that it's highly fetishized where so well, it's a tricky thing because I mean, I don't know what everyone's experienced with this movie is, but I feel like Edward Scissorhands is one of those characters that, like kids would an adults would plug themselves into because you can't like especially when you're like a kid that feels different like that's of course, it's a character that before you realize that you shouldn't kill Anthony Michael Hall, they

here before we learn that lesson that you would connect to. And so the places where it misses, especially I don't know him being told to funk off forever, really bothered me because thinking of the context of how people view that character, the takeaway is like, then then you kill someone and then you can never have a friend. Yeah, and the girl you love will never talk to you again, she'll marry someone else, they'll have a kid, and then she'll talk about you behind your back for the rest

of your life. Yeah. Yeah, here's onto the next fun topic. So this movie does a harmful thing where a woman I think Joyce is her name, comes on to Edward tries to seduce him, tries to kiss him, He's not having it. He runs away. Yeah, but then after the towns people start to turn on him after she retaliatestated by telling people that he tried to rape her. Right, I mean that spreads a number of bad messages, which

one where you going to bring up first? The first thing is that it feeds into the idea that when women are victims of assault come forward, they're lying up, they made its chit chatting on their phones, and they're painting their nails, and that is I mean, that is like a dead giveaway of like, yeah, man Rode at least part of this, because yeah, like the fact that it's like, oh, a woman who is reporting a rape is a lying and be doing it because she felt

somehow rejected or scorned yes by a man that she basically assaulted herself. So that I mean, and and that whole scene too with them where the consent is confused using in that scene, because there is one point where Edward is like, oh, but then he's scared, and also he doesn't know what windows are and it's like the baby not the baby, don't have sex with it. And during that scene there's like a comedic song in the background. It's like upbeat, like Doo Doo Doo do do Seinfeld

theme song. Yes, yeah, but it is clearly played as isn't this funny that this like sexy housewife. There's like a so into Edward that she would do this, and no matter what way you view Edward, that just does not track at all, because there are like a number of things that are supposed to indicate to us that he is a literal baby, like he's a young child.

We have we even see that like mirror moment that he has in Kim's room that is like the I don't know that I've only I've only been to college once, so I don't know what the name for it is, but it's there's a moment where were mirror stage, the mirror stage there you got, but he walks into you know, Kim's room and sees his reflection for the first time and knows what he looks like for the first time, which is something that babies do. Anyways, he's a baby,

don't have sex with him. Pretty simple rule. Well, uh, we've talked about this really quickly before we started recording, but I think we both thought of the born sexy

Yesterday trope, which we bring up there. Yeah who no, Yeah, I mean I I'm not sure where I land on that, because, like we were talking about the born sexy Yesterday trope is uh conventioned typically found in sci fi movies, usually where it's like a hot woman, uh you know, is an alien and she's hot and she falls in love with the first man she meets who teaches her how the world works, and she's very naive. It's a very

common trope. And so I first was thinking, oh, maybe Edwards sort of falls into this because although he hasn't never knude, he is a a by and you know, there are women showing him, mostly women showing him what the world around him is. Um, but I didn't. I don't know. It's not quite that. It's not quite that. What I think is a more appropriate, like kind of movie trend to apply to this movie is the and I don't have a name for it, but the people falling in love with non humans. Oh so this is

there's a great Lindsayellois video about this. Yeah, why do we like monsters? I also wrote an essay about this two months ago. Oh my goodness, I didn't read it. I'm so sorry. Well I'm calling you out. Oh my god, audience. So, when it happens when a woman falls in love with a non human, it's usually a beast, a creature, fish, a fish, uh, someone who's disfigured. Any lives at the basement of an opera house, the Baba Duke hot hot Hot, that was. Other examples are any beauty and the beast

adaptation Shape of Water, Phantom of the Opera. Apparently this happens in Howard the Duck, which I haven't seen. Yeah, there's a whole Yeah, King Kong is kind of an example this, I would argue, like Tarzan is kind of an example. I love Godzilla, you would be mine, Okay, if I had to pick, it would be Godzilla. So. And then on another end of the spectrum of this is whenever men fall in love in movies with non humans, it's usually a very hot robot and or alien like

blanks like literal blank the girlfriend experience. Yeah, yeah, a sexy blank slate. There's a lot of I mean, there's a there's a lot of When it comes to like the beast trope, A lot of the tropes involved with that are racist. A lot of the tropes involved with that. Uh. In the in the case of the Shape of Water hot Fish Alert. Uh, that is like more of a gentle telling of that where it's like, this is the

other creature, King Kong is hell a racist? And I think you had a great point with that where Dessert hands of like this sort of fetishizing a disabled character. Yeah, right, because in most of these examples, when it's a woman loving a creature or some other you know, other non human, she's usually very conventionally attractive and he is not. Isn't that why I wonder give Tim Burton a chance? I guess,

state nerds, State Nerds. It's almost as if women's value in society is based on her appearance, and how there's a ridiculous standard of beauty that we have to uphold and maintain well. And in both of these relationships. In in the Born Sexy Yesterday trope, the man teaches the woman everything she knows. He's in complete control of shaping

her as a person, which is wow, what a fantasy. Uh. And then and and then the the you know, the female character in the in the Beast trope still also kind of loses because very often the beast will retaliate on her will like first behave violently or toxic, and and then she has to be the one to tame

him bend over backwards to make it work. Yeah, a lot of emotional labor in the Beast mad sometimes kidnapping, like right, because in both there's usually like a situation where the human has to teach humanity to the hot robot or the beast, But yeah, the context is entirely different. So yeah, good point, Caitlin. Uh Okay, anyway, what else did you want to One thing we could mention is the baldest Woman in Charge happens because Peg keeps getting her hair cut shorter and shorter gets as she gets

more powerful, she gets snipped more. It's there there, on board with the Baldest Woman in Charge narrative. Another quick thing is the scene where Edward is like a guest on a talk show with Peg, and a woman in the audience says like, oh, have you ever thought about having corrective surgery or prosthetics? I know a doctor who might be able to help, And then Edward says, I'd

like to meet him. Yeah, what if the doctor wasn't to him Edward, but he just assumed because it was a doctor that it would well, he lived up in a castle and he still had that sexism like ingrained in. He didn't even learn that. He I think have another strike against the inventor. Yeah, the inventor is just sitting around and being like, hey, if you ever happened to meet a woman, she's dumb, do you do? Kind of see the inventor teaching him like etiquette, but it is

like very stuffy, old fashioned etiquette stuff. So he yeah, he was the little that he was socialized was like very archaic stuff. Yeah, And there is that crazy moment in the this I do remember when I was a kid of like what whoa in the talk show scene where one of the girls and this would be me

in any contexts, like do you have a girlfriend? And then we're just because he just stares and it's like for ten seconds, he stairs and we cut out to Kim wanting the interview, and he's still he's just like and no one says anything of like this is just say no, and then he himself and then and then he's like I have to snip something, and he's something, hey, let's take another quick break and then we'll be right back here's the fun thing we can talk about is

Tim Burton being a racist. Okay, that's fun. Let's do it. Rape timber being a racists topics. Um, so, as we know, Tim Burton's movies are painfully white. He does not care like many white directors in Hollywood, does not care about being inclusive, unlike most white directors in Hollywood. He later went on to say it was very intentional that everything was. Yeah, he likes it that way. Yeah, He's like, um, what else would I do? And it's like, sir, you want

to take that again? And no, okay, I'm writing this down right here that you're you said this, and he was like, yeah, he needs to be you know. It's like if I had scissor hands, I swear to God. Well, allow me to read a quote from Tim Burton I think from two thousand and sixteen. Uh. He says, I remember back when I was a child watching The Britty Bunch and they started to get all politically correct, like okay, let's have an Asian child and a black a black,

he says, all black. And then he interrupted himself and he was like, I used to get more offended by that than just and then he interrupts himself again and says, I grew up watching black exploitation movies, right, and I said that's great. I didn't go like, Okay, there should be more white people in these movies. End quote. Do you I think in this quote he's realizing he's very raisist in real time. Yes, yeah, yeah. There are literal dashes in the quote where he like, he's like, talk

about black splitation, let's talk about it. You've talked up at it. And then he's like and I and every pause and he got more braceis he like paused and like dull doubles down, and then he's like, anyways, I've seen a black explanation movie. And then he walks into the ocean goodbye. Because I think there's only one character who's a person of color in Edward Scissor Hands, and it's one of the police officers. And other than that,

it's the whitest movie you've ever seen. Yes, And it's crazy because it's, you know, fiction, so there's no excuse. All his work is fiction. It's all fantasy land. Yeah, a white fantasy land. Yeah. Yeah, we see Alice in Wonderland five hundred. Yeah, I do think like Tim Burton is a He's an interesting case for a director because he started out as an artist. Specifically he loved drawing, so that's why his films are so visual, which is up plus. But also he like doesn't have this like

story minded. It's all about the visual. So he likes white people and big eyes because he likes paleness and it reminds him of himself or something. Wes Anderson has a version of this syndrome where he needs everything to look nice and then he like it's an all white cast and then if there's not white people, they're using set dressing in his weird painting that he's making and it's not like thinking yeah about things. Um, like, your work is a part of the world. Except Tim Burton.

I think his ideal world is him on top of a mountain in his own little mansion alone, when they're making statues at ice. I guess with everyone at the bottom being like that. He was awesome. It was awesome when he was here. He was really cool. We all wanted to it was hot. Oh boy, I think that was all that I have. Oh man, I know I've gotten through my five pages. I did I did want to say in in praise of the character Edward scissor Hands. It is very unusual to have a male protagonist that

is not traditionally macho. It is kind of unusual to have a movie where the only really traditionally macho character in the movie is you know, literally killed. But I think that there are there are pluses to that character, because that's not something that you see especially in like if you were a young boy who did not you know, feel like, you know, connected to those like action heroes

who are like I'm gonna punch every woman. I see, uh, in a way like Edward is like somewhat feminineine like here and there, Like uh, yeah, I think that's a big plus. He cuts hair, he like does our you know, and he's he does like domestic stuff. He's chop and lettuce, he's chopping. He was made in a cookie factory. He connects with almost all women. And I don't know, I mean, there there are elements to that character that I think

are good, especially for for its time. Yeah, I would agree, And I think that's actually probably I think that's a trend across a lot of Tim Burton's work, where most of his characters are his protagonists are male identifying, but they are usually like very soft spoken. They're usually Johnny Depp. Like, yeah, they're usually Johnny Depp, who is an awesome guy. I've heard nothing but good things, what a cool man. Okay.

To be fair, though, when I, you know, was watching this movie a lot and other of Tim Burton's Johnny Depp movies, I was a big fan of Johnny Depp back then. And yeah, you're legally required if you didn't like Johnny Depp, you had to reggie your stir yourself with the government. It was like a thing, uh there, and and uh, just just continuing that with that a little bit. Even though a bracissor Hands is a soft spoken male character who thinks sort of happened to he

doesn't do that much. He usually lets women just show him like hey, you're doing this now, and he's like okay, and it's like, okay, this is great. But he doesn't fall into like the nerd toxicity zone. Uh that a lot of like Anthony Michael Hall movies fall into of like the nerd feeling entitled to things from women, usually especially because they feel rejected and you know, there's no there's no element of that in Edward. He's very polite, he's very grateful. He is so I don't like Paddington,

but not a hood. Paddington is way better. I have not seen you know, I really have to, but yeah, I don't know. There's that character specifically could have fallen into a lot of traps, doesn't Yeah, not to give Tim Burton more credit than he deserves. Yeah, well, does anyone have any other final thoughts? Just? Yeah, I guess, just to reiterate what Jamie said, like the ending of the movie is the weirdest, and the fact that she can't be with a guy who has scissors for hands

because she's ugly now is so weird. And not that she can't be with a guy because she literally saw him murder someone. Yeah, like that's a legit reason to not date someone feel someone that would you know, make sexy time a little having flashbacks off you abbing that person, I'm letting him fall out a window. Yeah, we Does anyone have any questions or comments that they want to share? Yeah, come on down to we can come mind. I just

wanted to point out the Titanic similarity. And then you have an old woman telling her grandchild that is not related to the man that she loved in the story. Wow, this person apause, Thank you so much. Yes, I'm one of the people who has not seen the movie, but I've read the Wikipedia. You've seen the movie, then basically

you've seen it. But the one part I can't remember, and I feel like it might be actually pretty significant because of the Princess Bride reference is old Winona writer telling the story to her grand daughter, grandson, granddaughter, and in the Princess Bride it was the grandson, right, yeah, okay, the story that had more fighting and action and romance kind of what I was leading to. Okay, whoa so yes dropped them. It was like, anyway, looks like you

forgot something awesome, so good. So to recap, this story that's being retold to the young girl is a is a romance story. It's a love story, whereas the story and the Princess Bride that's being told to a young boy is about there's action and there's fighting, and he s at the love. He makes the grandpa skip over that, at least at first. He warns up to it eventually, but yeah, there is a distinct difference. Thank you for

pointing it out. And also I don't I forget if we said this, really, the framing device does not need to be there. They could also just start. Do you guys think you're gonna tell your grandchildren people you almost had sex with. I'm gonna be like, so, Okay, there's this guy who's in a Lunchables commercial, but he's really nice. I'm not going to have any children, so that that won't happen for me. You can tell you can tell my grandchildren. Okay, yeah, couple like, Hey, so there's this guy.

I just want to add really quick. I think, as you know, Alan Arkin does a good job in this movie, but I could think of one man who could have done a better job. Uh. Well, his nickname is Freddie, but his full name is Mr Alfred Molina. I think he would have been a great thick daddy in this movie. And he Okay, if Alfred Molina was playing the god, I can't even say his name. You just I saw goose bumps go up and down your arm. Sorry, i've

activated your scissors in your body a shifting. Uh. If Alfred Molina was playing the Alan Arkin character, there would be no doubt in our minds that Peg was like getting head because Molina characters, and we're like, he takes care of business. He even dot Cock, you know, maybe especially dot Cock. He belongs in this universe, Dock and somebody is as he was. Yeah, those there other questions I thought. I wanted the back. Yeah, come on, come

on down. So I love this movie. And one of the things that I always noticed was so weird about it that they just like have popped in and then never address again, is that one like crazy woman who's in her dark house, like playing her piano, and she's like that guy's trouble, Like where does what? What? Can we just talk about her? Totally? Totally, We kind of skipped over church Lady a little bit. I think that church Lady, I mean, she's another very trophy character in

the neighborhood. But I think this is also like tim Burton's weak sauce attempt to be like the suburbs are evil like and she and and you know, like, I think he's just taking every element of the suburbs and demonizing it in this very like eighties and nineties way where there were so many movies win the writers in a lot of them that is like, you know, my parents who loved me fuck them. That is the theme

of so many movies. It's like teenagers who are very privileged being like, hey mom and Dad, I know you worked hard your entire fucking life to give me anything I want, but score you horrible or I think that was how I interpreted church Lady. It's like a little Timmy in the back room, like, hey, you know you're a little church It's stupid. Yeah, that is what he thinks he was doing with that character. That was Mr

tim making his big point. Yeah, it also seemed like because I grew up in a very small town, and it seems like someone who wasn't born in a small town like being like, oh I know what that's all about. Oh you got this person. Oh you've got the crazy church lady. Oh and you got the housewife. Like I heard that ticky taggy song. I think I got it. That's all the rest to do. Okay, does my script anyways? It's a guy with sharp hands. Well we think, what

a worry? Any other questions or comments? Yeah, I just went to flash back to when Jamie said if Alfred Molina was Elan Arkin, there will be no doubt that he was going down. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Anyways, let's a doubt. So this is a two part episode. There aren't any cats. There's a lot of dogs in this movie, but there are sadly no cats, so I can't bring up cat facts. Oh there's a Backstreet boy

in this movie. Yes, there's a bat boy. So when they were driving into the suburbs for the first time and you see a man doing a slipping slide, that's yeah, dude White Well, I don't know, but it's on his IMDb. He credits himself as being in Edwards hands. Nick, good for you, So there's not they're no cats. But if there's nipples to the Carters have, I'm gonna speculate and say too. So Nick Carter has two nipples. That's Carter

facts with Caitlin. Any other questions on the speculation of whether or not Edward scissor him has a circulatory system. We clearly know that his entire insights are made of scissors, So if his blood, why not can't his blood just not be smaller red scissors? Oh my god, you cracked it. I think that's probably what it is. That's one of those ones where we're like, oh, yeah, it's tiny red scissors.

I thought you were going to ask a question that Caitlin hates when people bring up about our beetle juice episode where I at up what I think is the question of the century, and now that's Halloween season again, we have to ask ourselves does beetle juice come scabs? And if so, are they dry or are they wet? Uh? This has been your annual reminder of wondering what beetle juice comes. They're drying? Okay, we have a hardened That's worse. That's a way worse. Because then I think I've said

this before too. It would sound like a shuffle like a deck of cards. Does that mean then, does Edward scissor hands come tiny little scissors? Yeah? Why does there

always have to be a sound effect? What ifs just like and that there was like n scams in the ground, I have to go home any other Yeah, I just wanted to mention that at the end, like the big gun fights, saying where he has a gun for some reason, when my gold when he slaps and then like Donkey kicks Kim, I felt like that was really excessive because he already has a gun, you have a reason to kill him, but he still has to get the violence towards women in there for some reason when he's been

like pulling on her and kind of like you know, bossing her around the whole time. That's a great point. Yeah, I mean that that sounds like another like in the way that they go way out of the way to demonize this job character in a way that is cartoonist for this movie. Uh yeah, it's like, let's get in a few lat because I what I would guess is like some sort of studio note of like, please remind everyone why we hate this guy because he's about to

get murdered. Yeah, just once again, let's really justify this murder. Ye, not getting rid of murder. So let's just make sure we write to justify killing Anthony Michael Hall, non negotiable everything around it. Yeah yeah, but absolutely like getting in because there's not like that's not an element of this movie at all up until that moment. I think we

talked about this in the point break episode. This happens all the time in movies where the bad guys will inflict violence on women more so than anyone else because it like ups the stakes and it makes it same. Oh that look how bad these guys are woman. A lot of men, yeah, a lot of men, and just like the whole uh you know, lazy writing trope of making abusers of women very cartoonish where you can literally see you're like, oh, yeah, he's gonna hit a lady.

That's not Men in the audience can think to themselves exactly, so that you know, when there's predatory characters like this, men who may have many of those qualities themselves can feel comfortable and be like, well, I don't I'm not I don't know. I'm not screaming, and I'm not screaming at my friend a drunk drive for no reason, you know. And so I'm bringing a gun to an abandoned castle, So I'm good. I don't need Yeah, so that's unfortunate. Thanks for bringing that up. I think we have time

for one more question. Yeah, okay. First, I want to say that I'm the end of the movie made me really sad, But what made me happy was I'm new to the podcast thanks to my fiance. I don't know the rules with the test, but I did notice that in the beginning is it peg, the mom is talking to Berta from Two and a half Man, The main Yeah, and then they both said names, and so I'm like, does that I got? We got really excited. I was like, oh,

I think that passes the test? Right? This is the perfect God, It's literally like this podcast, Yes, I think what that is the smoothest transition we've ever had podcast ever. As a fan of Segways, I am pro God. That was I like, who It was like, oh, are we getting a gifted to I'm about to come scabs? That was so WHOA Like anyways, uh, Segway to what we were going to end the show on. Right, So let's

talk about whether or not this movie passes the Bechdel test. Uh. The scene said I think you're calling into question is when Peg is going kind of door to door at the very beginning of the movie and trying to sell her Avon's m because it's not as funny the second

time around. Okay, but she is talking to we learned the other woman's name is Helen at the end of that scene, and she comes back for several times and she's like, oh, you can buy your you know, your creams and your shadows, and she does her presentation with her. She does a really good job, is really proud of her. Every time I see that scene. She sells it really hard of my mom's avon Lady Bev Bev Yeah yeah. And then Helen's like, I never buy anything from you producers.

Sophie's just shaking your head. We left bev On examined for another show. Yeah, let's start a whole new podcast about it. Let's talk about my oly neighbor Bev. So anyway, so that conversation, I would say passes because they we learned both of their names, and they don't talk about men at all. They're talking about a failed cosmetic purchase, and it's really that's when that's still one of the funniest moments in the movie, too, so charming. Would she

just they know because that she's like okay, goodbye. So funny. And then the scene right after that, Peg is talking to Joyce and Joyce is all like, oh, there's a vehicle in my driveway. I'm very busy trying to suck this dishwasher repair man. Yeah, she's chaotic Corney. Yeah. She never mentioned explicitly that she's busy with a man. The

subtext of that conversation is revolving around a man. There's a few different phone conversations where that's the case where sometimes there's a lot of you know, like neighborhood phone calls and you know, tim, Timmy's over in the corner, like this is dumb, But yeah, there are somewhere it's like there's an exchange inside of the phone call that passes. But the subtext has to do with like, what's what's Edward? Snipping? Yeah, because I would say most of the conversations between women

after those first few scenes always about Edward. Yeah, and there are quite a few of them. They're quite a few moments where it's like a group of only women talking, but they're always yeah, it's like what's Edward? What'sward? There is there very good impression the film. It was a very offensive portrayal of women. Oh my god, you know women like well, I think the movie does an offensive portrayal of character. Once Edward enters the picture, they all

just forget their lives and it's about Edward. Yeah, they're gossiping, you know church. Yea, that's true. God's a man, so she was talking about it's not true. But yeah, I would say at least those first couple of scenes in the beginning do pass the test also the framing device at the very beginning of the movie, when old Wrinkley went on a rider, is all like, hey, let me tell you how snow was invented. That would pass, except that we never learned that granddaughter's name. Does it pass

the vaxillent test? Winona riders talking to her own rubbers Yes, and the rubber suit creaks and response, I would say yes, throwing it out there. Yeah, well does the rubber suit have a name? Does the rebersuit? Yes? Note writer's rubber suits. Sorry. Yeah, So to answer your question, the movie does pass the Bechtel test. It does, but many of the conversations between

women do not. So it is one of those movies where there are more female cast members in general than there are male cast members, at least in terms of people who have impact on what happens in the movie. So it should pass by way more than it does, right. Yeah. And also I wish that Kim had a female friend. Yeah, that's very easy. She's like the head cheerleader, you would think, I know. And also I'm like, where I hope that,

you know? I almost was like, I hope she doesn't have friends because if not, like, why aren't they like, yeah, you just dump this guy. It's horrible hair. Yeah, scary and have you seen the scissor dude who just moved in? Come on? Yeah, I think we could really we should re edit that movie with us as friends. Yeah, just be like yo, Kim, you see the sharp guy? Yeah? Anyways, dun't bad thinking my go Hall. That wouldn't pass it back toil testing. So well, goodbye, nobody's perfect. Shall we

write the movie on our nipple scale? It right? As you know, our nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on the movie's portrayal of women. Oh, I'm gonna give it, I think too, because the female characters we see in the movie trophy though they may be, they are certainly way more active than nearly every male character in the story.

So it's largely women driving the narrative. I would say that it gets a lot of nipples docked off for being excessively white, for fetishizing and treating disappelite and in a very strange way. But it's also like, as we also talked about, the like main male character is not like a gross toxic dude. He's I mean, he's bare, he's done a baby, baby, he says like seven words in the whole story. His first line is talking about

his dad. How he thinks his dad. He's like, he didn't wake up, right, what's it's dad died in front of him. You're right, And he's never seen a window. You're right. You know that when, the when, the when? The not magician, but you know, the terrible inventor, the sexist inventor who made two things. Ever is like handing him his hands and he's like, here's everything you've ever wanted. I'm dead. I just feel like that's going to happen to me something. Yeah, well, anyway, nipples because it's not

like the most regressive story we've ever seen. It's certainly not progressive, but I think it hands right. So yeah, I'm gonna give it two nipples, and I will give one to Edward. And because Edward is just made of scissors, his nipples are also scissors. N doesn't have a fighting chance. Yeah, so one nipple scissor to Edward, and I'll give my other nipple to Joyce because I appreciate how horny she

was throughout the film. I'm going to go to as well. Yeah, I agree that this movie avoids doing something's wrong that it could and fully capitalized doing other things wrong that it could very on board with with what you're saying, and and just like rewatching most Timburton movies now is just going to leave a bad taste in your mouth because now he is just laid the cards out of the table, you know what he's about, and giving him money is letting that continue to happen. So you know,

it's it's a it's a bummer because it's hard. It's hard to rewatch a movie that you you used to really love and that you made, you made your mommy froth. So with that in mind, it's like it's unfortunate. However, you know, Doubt is still a movie that's out in the world, and so we have that to feel good about. And uh, yeah, I agree with the two nipple rating. I'm going to give both of my nipples to Nick Carter day. He's gonna need them for that slipper slide.

That's two slippy nips her, Nick Carter. Well boy, Uh, if it was just it was PEG's movie, oh that would be five nipples out of five. That's really what I crave every time I watched this movie. Just more peg. She's a delight. It should have been a movie, but because that's not the movie and that's not Tim Burton. Yeah, I think I'm gonna go to for all stated reasons above. Y'all. You give me your nippies too. Oh the doggies because those are real haircuts. They really had to give those

dogs haircuts. And uh yeah, I can't believe we got through all the way through this without saying one of my favorite words, topiari. Anyways, topiari is in this movie, and it's a you know, it's a dinosaur bush thing. It's when you make a bush look like a thing it's not supposed to. You see a bush, you're like, hey, what if something else? And then you get your snippy hand friend and he does this little thing and then it's you get a topiari. I do that in the shower. Yeah, yeah,

every woman is a topiari. Well with that, Maggie, thank you so much for being our guest. We've had so much fun. To our audience for coming to the show. Hey it's Caitlin. I am back in the studio and on behalf of the back dol cast. We just wanted to give a few more shout outs. Thank you to the Ruby for having us at the live show. If you're in l A, check out this venue. It's really cool. Go to the Ruby l A dot com for more info. Thank you to our producers Sophie and Aristotle for being

the best and most supportive producers in the world. Thank you to Sammy Junio for recording the live show for us. Thanks again to everyone who came out to watch the live show. You were the best audience we could have

asked for. A big thanks again to our guest Maggie may Fish, who you can follow on Twitter at Maggie may Fish May spelled m a E. You can subscribe to her YouTube channel at Maggie may Fish, where she makes great video essays about film, including one entitled looking for Meaning in Tim Burton's Movies, which you should definitely check out. And as always, you can follow us at Bechtel Cast on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You can give

us a five nipple rating on iTunes. You can subscribe to our matren by going to patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and that gets you too bonus episodes every single month for only five dollars a month. You can go to our merch store at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast and you can grab our shirts, mugs, pillows, notebooks and all sorts of other goodies let's say feminist icon,

queer icon and other cool stuff. We are going to do more live shows in the future, so keep your eyes peeled and hopefully we come to a city near you soon. Thank you so much for listening. Thing. You all get five nips from us and we will see you next time. Bye bye,