Double Indemnity with Anita Sarkeesian

Caitlyn Durante. I did it for the money and a woman, and I didn't get the money and I didn't get the woman. Okay, I like that way better. I like that way better. Because what is Walter Nev doing at the beginning of this movie and throughout besides recording a true crime podcast? He literally, yes, I wrote that the same thing. I was like, Wow, what's her name? I wrote down, Um, who's the whatever? The serial person? I'm blowing it. I'm blowing it this morning. Oh my gosh,

I don't remember either. Why we I feel like everyone I can hear her voice, I can hear her cadence. It's iconic, like I oh my god, I was very into it when it came out. What it? What was it? Sarah Kanig, Sarah Cadi, Yes, yes, he's Sarah kaneging out at the beginning of the show. Well, we well, that was one of our best intros. Perfect. See this is and if people are listening right now, this is why we don't record this early in the morning, because this is gonna be that you're gonna feel a sort of

waking up as the podcast proceeds. We're not like Walter nep recording in the dead of night with a with an injury the gunshot wound. Yeah, this is It's ten. I am I've been up since seven because I needed to rewatch this movie sa morning. Same. So I think that we're doing a really good job so far. Welcome

to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Tests simply as a jumping off point, an inspiration for us to get a conversation going. Jamie, tell me what the Bechdel test is? Please? No, okay, the Bechtel test has many permutations. That's sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. We require that

two pass. You have to have two characters of a marginalized gender with names speaking to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. I think this movie passes, which is funny, um, because I went in thinking there's no way there's even a second woman in the movie. Well, guess what, there is exactly one second. So egg on my face. There's two

women in the movie and they talk about checkers. Um. So if that's why you listen to the podcast, I guess you could turn it off down because but stick around because we've got a lot of exciting stuff to talk about, recovering a film noir today from nineteen four called Double Indemnity, And we have an amazing returning guest. Let's get her in the mix. We certainly do. She is a media critic. You remember her from our episode

on Point Break. It's Anita Sarcasian. Okay, just so everyone knows, I try to get them to do another surf movie with me, so that I only do surf movies on the back pelcast and they were not going for it. Caitlyn like just looked at me, being like, nobody requests surf movies. We should I don't think that's true, so please right in and let them know that I'm right. I didn't know about this conversation, and I would have made a strong argument for Blue Crush. That made really

gave me some body problems. So, yeah, I forgot about Blue Crush. How good you forget about Blue Crush. I've never seen Blue Crash, so I like this would be a great opportunity because I'm like, I want to watch all of them now, so I will. I'll come back. And apparently it was formative for a lot of young queers too. There's a whole I need to need to

get in on this. I remember there was such a frothing culture around Blue Crush because all the girls that I would watch it with were like, isn't it amazing that Kate Bosworth has one blue eye and one brown eye? We were just like all lusting after her, like, wow, her bikini is so low cut. Yeah, there's a whole there's a whole thing exactly. But we're talking about double indemnity eight. We're talking about a different kind of um

interestingly exploited female character. Today it's fatal Day on the factel cast It's sure, is so Anita? What is your relationship history, etcetera with this movie with film no war in general, Um nothing. I have no history at all. I chose it, or like, I, you know, kind of agreed to do it because I've been curious about going back and watching older films, so I was like, why not have an excuse to do it. I sort of regret that choice. So this is gonna be a great episode. Um,

but I don't um, I don't know. I didn't know anything about this movie going into it. I loosely knew that it was like kind of quintessential in terms of establishing the film fatale or film noir ish kind of vibes. So I was curious about that. But I don't have a long history of like, you know, it's not like I've watched a bunch of noirs. I kind of get the sense of them. I find current or more modern

films that pull noir themes really interesting. But but that makes it like every time I watch a movie that's like this was the thing that changed everything, I always feel a little bit of We will never be able to know what that feels like because I've seen every iteration since then, or I've seen every like derivative. I've seen everything that is like derivative from the original source.

And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. It's just it's so hard sometimes to put yourself in the mind of the viewer at the time and the creation process at the time. Right. I'm sure that if I had seen Citizen Kane in whatever nineteen forty one when it came out, I'd be like, Wow, this movie is so cool. Look at how groundbreaking it is, look at how it changed cinema. But I didn't see it in ninety one. I saw it in the mid two thousand's and I hate it. Well, that was your first mistake,

not being alive in one. I do want to cover Citizen Cane someday so I can just talk about how it's a turd. But that's edge Lord Caitlin peeking her

little head out. But I do think kind of before we get into this a little bit um So, I just watched Liquorice Pizza, which has of extremely racist a couple of moments of like deep racism, right, And I was thinking about I don't have anything really insightful to say about this, but that it can be very hard for modern progressive viewers to go back and watch older films, right, because you do have to kind of in order to do that and to appreciate the craft of the time,

we have to acknowledge, sit through, deal with, ignore, like whatever it is that you do when you watch older movies. It's just there, right, and you can't unsee what you know.

And I was thinking about what that means in contemporary films, especially contemporary films that are of a time, so like including pieces that are super racist or sexist in a movie that comes out to contextualize the moment that it takes place, Like, I have a lot of thoughts about that, And I think that there's something interesting about like kind of me ping ponging back and forth in right now and what I'm watching and seeing, like cool, I gotta

like deal with, you know, you've got to deal with the like all the sexist representations and the like light misogyny that's just like a part of the environment. And then also we still have to you know, like it's still being justified as relevant or a part of the craft or a part of the art or whatever. Yeah, right, because it's like a period piece, right, yeah, it's it's not the only you know, I'm not like specifically calling out Pta, but just the you know, like Tarantino and

like they all fucking do that, right, right. Yeah. And I think sometimes like period pieces are used as an excuse to like bring that back in a way of like isn't this funny, and you're like, it's really not. But I think film fatal is like such an interesting thing, and I totally agree with what you guys are saying of it's so difficult to watch a movie and put yourself in the mindset of an audience member at the time. It's like almost impossible unless you're like really really really

trying to. And that's like part of what's hard about this show sometimes. But that's the thing is like what audience is watching it as well. I think it's another used to that absolutely, Jamie, what's your relationship to Double Indemnity? I saw this movie in college. I think that like any person that went through a bad film program, like there was a unit on Noir, I saw a bunch of them. I generally do like I I like Noir, and I really like noir, like parody and like comedy.

I'm I'm like into the vibe of Noir and the because the like the characters are so clear, and so

I enjoy watching Noir. Also, my friend friend of the show guest on our Glie episode, Josh fatum Um just observed Noirvember, which is something he does every year for nobody, but this year I was paying attention and um, so I had Noir in the brain anyways, So I was excited to revisit this movie because I feel like this movie is often kind of presented as like the blueprint for a lot of Nora tropes, and particularly like the

fum Fatale character. And it was kind of interesting to come back to because by coincidence, I was working on the The Capy podcast this year and so was going through the history of like American women's rights, and so it's like interesting to have a few things click about, like why why the fum Fatale trope tends to pop

at certain moments. It makes total sense that it would pop during World War Two because it's a time where women are taking on men's jobs quote unquote and are presenting a more act to threat to the status quo, and so some fetals like popping in the forties and fifties makes total sense. Any time that there's like a period of time where uh, there's a backlash to a popular feminist movement, you get these characters that are like variations on witches and like evil women luring people with sex.

And I don't know, I had I had a and I genuinely like moviewise. I hear like Walter nev is such a dufus, like he got a boner one time and it was ready to just throw his entire life away, which is kind of funny. But I'm excited to talk about this movie. I I genuinely enjoyed watching it. And Barbara Stanwick is such a such an icon, and she's wearing such a such a bizarre wig is very distracting. The bangs on her bangs are out of control. They're like a hard they look like you could like knock

on them. They're like a perfect cylinder just resting a top her forehead. I don't understand how you accomplish that. Unbelievable, but yeah, I I I generally, I mean, there's misogynist tropes abound in this genre, but I think it's like in context, it's it's pretty interesting and the movies are fun to watch. Yeah, I too saw this movie in college at least a couple of times, and then also in grad school where I did get a master's degree

in screen running from Boston University. I hate to mention it, but they made you watch it again. Yeah, I mean because I took like enough like film theory or film history classes that touched on film noir, and this is kind of like one of those like quintessential film noir movies. It's cited as having set the standard for film noir, so you know, it's kind of one of the ones to study if you're developing the curriculum for a very standard, boring film class because they always show the same damn

movies over and over again. I've seen it several times in school, and this is like, I feel like the one that they show in school. Yes, which is also why I've seen Citizen Kane eight hundred times. I hate

it more and more every time I see it. Anyway, else I'll stop bringing up the Citizen Kane maybe, but yeah, so I've seen this movie a number of times usually and that probably like maybe I I saw it once just of my own volition before I saw it for a class, because I was like, oh, yeah, this is one of those like famous movies that's in all the textbooks. I have to see it so I can, you know, be smart and understand references so you could go to party.

Sometimes I just watch things so I can comfortably attend a party. Same same, Um, I get it, but I don't. I don't hate the movie. I like the snappy dialogue. You know, the aesthetic is fun. Yeah, I like. I generally like film noir. I like neo noir especially, But who framed Roger Rabbit Baby? I mean, come on, the noir golden standard. I think I'm serious too. I think I'm serious. I don't think you're wrong. We covered that movie a while back on the Matreon, so if you

haven't heard it listeners, go check it out. But anyway, should I do the recap and then we'll discuss let's do it. Okay, Actually, let's take a quick break first, and then we will be right back. And we're back, so Double Indemnity. We meet Walter Neff played by Fred McMurray. He is an insurance salesman who stumbles into his office and starts recording a podcast. Basically, he starts recording a confession to Mr Keys, who we will later learn is

a colleague of Walter Nefts. He confesses that he murdered someone named Dietrichson. He did it for the money and a woman, but he didn't get either. He mentions a double indemnity, and we're like, wow, that's the name of the movie. I was like, I hope he defines that in dialogue at some point, and then he does, which

is genuinely needed, so thank you. Yes, and then he starts to tell the story about how all of this transpired, and then we flashback to Walter paying Mr Dietrichson a visit at his Los Angeles home to talk about his expired car insurance policy. Mr. Dietrichson is not home, but his wife. His wife, his wife, Mrs Dietrichson A. K. Phillis played by Barbara Stanwick, is home. She comes out all sexy and not fully closed. She's got like a towel draped on her. Yeah. They they really need to

signal to you what's going on right away. I did like that. They like just like old tiny ways of objectifying a woman are funny, where he kept being like her anklet, You're like, you're a pervert. Stop talking about her anklet. In that moment too, when he first meets her and she was sunbathing, he says, I hope there aren't any pigeons like lines that. I was like, what the fuck is this comedy? Like, yeah, it's like this. I would almost rather someone. I mean, I would rather

Walter never speak to me. But if he had to have, I does that roundabout it's just creepy. He's like, oh, I hope there's all pigeons, just like I hope birds aren't shipping on you. Is that what I guess? So, and then right right after the housekeeper says like, the living room is where they keep the liquor sucked up, which is also a weird thing, and he says, that's all right, I always carry my own keys. Like some of the dialogue in this, I kept being like, what

the fuck. I don't understand it. It's another I'm adjusting the name of this test. I need to figure it out. But it is an example of if the person if the actor saying that line wasn't extremely conventionally hot. You'd be like, this guy is weird. Why is he acting like this? Yes? Yes, I think part of it is like the writer's attempt to have like really quippy, clever dialogue in a way that might have made more sense to like audiences, but you know, many decades later we're like,

what are you talking about? I think it's a combination of that, and a lot of the dialogue has to be euphemism to skirt the restrictions of the production code. So I like it. I like it. I think it's it's just so bizarre to hear characters talk like that to each other and um, feel like it's just another day,

another day talking like a weirdo. Uh yeah, So Phillis Dietrichson agrees to chat with Walter Nef and uh he spends that entire conversation hitting on her in a very nies way, and then she asks if he handles accident insurance, which he does, and she tells him to come back at a different time when her husband will be home. Then we see Walter at his office. We meet Keys,

who is Walter F's colleague. His whole thing is that he's a skeptic and he can always sniff out a fraudulent insurance claim because he feels it right here, and he like basically like points to his like tour. So it was I was like, what are you doing? It's is this the weird dick thing? Like? It was very I was like, oh, your heart, like your heart and your heart it was so it's like, okay, buddy, Yeah, he keeps referring to the little man who lives inside him. Yes,

that was the thing. You're like, is this like is this a euphemism? What's happening here? I don't understand. He's like, I always know when someone's lying to me. I can feel it in my dick. Well, my dick starts to the thrub. That's when you know someone's not telling the truth. I really liked that moment with him. I mean that that who is that character? I don't think I've ever seen that character actor before. Um Edward g Robinson. Yeah, apparently he was quite famous back in the day, but

I don't really know him. Oh no, oh. He he named people during the Red Scare little as he named Dalton Trumbo. Wow. Okay, this bitch, okay, So all right, you and your little band and this Wikipedia page. Yeah, go fuck yourself. Oh your digs throbbing and out good hearted communists jesus um okay Keys the character. I really enjoyed that scene where kind of like apropa of nothing, he just is like, yeah, I almost got married once.

Didn't work out though, Like he just starts going off about how he's never been loved in his life and that's why he's so good at an insurance I was like, oh my god. Also, the reasons he lists for like not going through with that marriage are so wild. And again, you know, the standards of the time were very different. But he's like, she I found out that she used to dye her hair or that she's been dyeing her hair since she was sixteen, and also she was married

once before. And then he also like makes a reference to how there's like mental illness in her family. So he's like and then and then Walter's like, yeah, I get it. She was a tramp. Everyone in her family is a tramp. Blah blah blah, and it's just like, yikes, your standards are very mean. This guy was so dirty at the House of Un American Activities Committee. What a

what a piece of ship, What an asshole? He thought, and again of the time, I'm sure he's like, this is we don't have time to talk about this today. I'm disappointed Edward also r I P. He died like years ago. Fun fact, at sometime next year, I'll be releasing a video series and one of the episodes is about the Hollywood Blacklist, So tune into that whenever the funk that appears, keep your keep your eyes peeled, listeners, please filet a fish our boy Edward because he fucked up.

He fucked up big time. All right, so we we've met keys. Then Walter nef goes back to Phillis Dietrichson, who tells him that she wants to take out an accident insurance policy on her husband, who works a dangerous job in the oil fields, but she doesn't want her husband to know about it, and Walter automatically assumes that it's because she's trying to find a way to get her husband killed so that she can collect on the insurance money. But she's like, no, I decay what you're

talking about. But even so he storms out, but then he's like, oh wait a minute. Though she's so hot, I mean she wears an anklets a I mean, he brings it up like four or five times. It's like really weird. It's like, yeah, the way the anklet was cutting into your leg, Like okay, So he comes back and like, I'm just using this as a cue to talk about the like the dialogue e banter. Right, that's

very not the way that people talk. And I haven't watched a lot of movies from the forties, but it is very much the sort of stereotype that I think we think of when we think about like older films. Sure, I found it really hard to watch, you know, and you both expressed that, like you enjoyed it and like thought it was kind of a fun thing and for me,

like it it got really exhausting after a while. Oh definitely, you know, like it was just too I was like, can you all just fucking like and again, film history like has changed so much in terms of what we expect of actors and storytelling and all of that. But I was just getting really like okay enough already with

the performativeness in this conversation. Right. It definitely gave me whiplash after a while, because there's that scene where he's like, suppose I am speeding and she's like, well, suppose I give you a ticket and suppose you leave me off with a warning, And I'm just like, see that just makes me laugh. Where they're like flirting and you're like this is this is I barely recognize this as the

English language, Like what are you guys talking about? And then at the end they're like, we have a crush

on each other? Like from basically that interesting. Okay, So it also reminds me and like, okay, Josh Weeden's a piece of ship, so acknowledging that before I go into this, but it reminds me of how like Buffy and some of the work that he did in the nineties and two thousands sort of popularized that kind of like and and I'd say, you're more girls to kind of popularize that, Like it feels like a remnant of that time, but but kind of normal like that I didn't have a

problem with, like I liked, I didn't like more girls, but so it feels a little bit like that. Um, I'm just like, it's not like we don't do that anymore, but it but it's it's modernized in a way that's like our jokes and our communication and our you know, like sort of hyper communication of of the moment. But man, I just I was really by the end of it.

I was like, can you just stop talking? I'm a sucker for people talking real fast, and so other times I was talking real fast, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, cool, what uh? But that's also YouTube life, right, Like the joke about YouTubers is that they all talked super fast because we used to have time constraints, so we're trying

to like shove everything in. So I don't I think it's just interesting how like that kind of maybe like Ebbed and Float a little bit in terms of the way that what we accept as like witty dialogue and speed of of talking um changes or our perception of it in the past changes to right, and it's all like the mid Atlantic kind of fake fucking accents and ship where you're like, I mean, there's also like there's like movie dialogue that you like, read it on the

page or you hear it, and you're like, this is dialogue versus something that feels more realistic and organic and conversational, which like also can be very well written. But I don't know, I I'm kind of a sucker for dialogue that no one would actually say in real life because it's like very clearly written. It's like too clever and too quickly, like the West Wing kind of I know,

I know that's the flavor. I don't, but I'm saying it's that kind of thing where you're like, this isn't real, but also like you kind of like a lot of people really vibe with it, right sure, Yeah, yeah, I feel like, yeah, there's there's probably like a fast talking genre or like piece of work for every like generation that it's like either you're into it or you're not,

or I don't know. I do also want to add that if I literally in my notes, I wrote, if he says baby one more time, oh my gosh, Like I here's the thing is Walter Neff Fred McMurray, Like it's just so unlikable in every conceivable way. There's nothing about you feel that way because I was like, I'm not interested in this man at all. He's yeah, not for me. I think I would have liked the movie more if I gave any fox at all about this guy.

But he just seemed so unlikable and so uninteresting in such a piece of ship in every way that like I don't feel bad that he's being manipulated. I don't feel bad that he is like he like, he's like I want you to fail and I want you to get like, you know whatever. And so I think that that. I don't think as an audience member, we're supposed to

feel that way about him. No, I think the movie because he was prior to this, like a rom com star, and he almost turned down the role because he's like, this role is going to tarnish my reputation as a like an America's sweetheart, you know, like rom com guy. But then he went for it anyway. But yeah, I think he he as an actor, people liked him, and we are meant to be endeared to him. But yeah, again, by like my standards today, I'm just like, oh, quick

calling her baby eight hundred times. Yeah, I I didn't really, I don't know what it was. And I'm like, maybe this is just me being annoying. But I'm like if maybe, if there was a different actor in that role. But but the other thing is with noir characters in general, I guess I don't understand from a writing perspective why you wouldn't give the audience more information about who waltern f is or like what because it just seems like he's living this like steak less life. Like he's a

single guy. We don't know anything about his family. He seems like he's financially comfortable enough, but we don't really know anything about him, and so it's hard to like, like if you just if they just added one or two details of like and he has a sick cat or like just something to like endear you to him or just to give information, but he's just like a guy. And so yeah, I was like, well, I don't really care what happens to this guy. He's just some guy.

When in the history of film noir did it become kind of attached to the sort of hard boiled detective, because that so this movie is this like fem fatale manipulating this guy, right, is kind of the vibes that are happening. But in my mind, being very uneducated in this space, I'm like, well, shouldn't he be a little more hard boiled and a little more like gruff? Right?

I think that ordinarily that is the case of like there's more gruffness, you'll have a little bit more information about the character, which kind of just like, well, there's a whole character kind of strikes me as a little bizarre because I'm just like, I feel like I don't know who this person is, so I can't even like from a like oh, I feel bad for this guy, Like I don't really feel bad for him because he seems to know exactly what's going on outside of the

fact that she is manipulated, like that's the only thing he doesn't know. But everything else, there's so many plot developments in this murder plot that are like his idea, So I'm like, yeah, he's gonna get what's coming to him.

Like it's not like she's like, oh, we should do this or we should do this, which she does sometimes she's obviously an active participant in this plot, but his whole thing where they're like, oh no, we actually have to throw your husband off a train and then we'll get twice the money, and I was like, okay, So he's just like a full on which collusion, like goof us,

and I don't care what happens to him. And I don't think that they and you already said this, Jamie, but they don't do a good enough job of showing that they fucking care. About each other, and I know that there's the bit, there's the bit at the end. Well, we're not there yet. We'll deal with it when whatever.

But but like we're not supposed to think that she really cares that much about him, right, We're supposed to like she's she's manipulating him, and she's like going along with it, and he's in love with her, but like they don't do anything to really build that relationship or the emotional stakes of it in any way. And so he calls her baby. So that's how we know that her question mark. There's those long montages. Yeah, there's all these opportunities, and I get, like story logic. I'm like, okay,

that makes sense. But also I wouldn't have been bothered as an audience member. But there's just like they'll have one conversation and then they'll be a montage where he's like and then I didn't see her for two weeks, and I kind of just went back to what I was doing and I was like, well, that's boring, that doesn't right, I don't really care. Yeah, there's a whole conversation we had about like his motive or lack thereof,

it's wild. His I think his motive is that he's horny, Like here's a bit, yeah, which I mean, I've had a horny motive in my day, but not sure, you know, not to this extent doesn't drive you to murder. And I've got a personality unlike Walter, So it's interesting when I have a horny motive. Yeah right, um okay, So where did we leave off? Um? I like when he goes bowling on the way home, I was like, that is that is again like just a creepy, bizarre thing

to do, Like I think I gotta blow some steam out. Hey, that's character development, Yeah, he likes. I also wondered if that was a euphemism for something like if that was understood that if you know, if you go bowling after work. It's really like, did he go to a bar and get king, I don't know, you have a beer and and uh and go bowling alone? Yeah that's you get drunk at your house and jerk off right. Um okay.

So he's kind of having conflicting thoughts because he's like, I don't wanna, you know, be involved with her, but she's so hot, so I don't know. And then she pays him a visit and basically confirms that his suspicions were correct about her wanting to have her husband killed, and she reveals that it's because her husband is abusive toward her. Walter and Phyllis kiss. Then Walter is like, you know, you probably won't get away with this, but with my help and know how as an insurance guy,

maybe you will get away with it. So then they start to scheme. First, they need to trick Mr Dietrichson into signing the policy, and they need a witness, which ends up being Dietrichson's daughter from his first marriage, Lola, So he signs the policy. Then Walter's like, oh, by the way, if we do a double indemnity, which is when and then we go the title, which is when

the insurance pays out double on certain accidents. For example, if someone is killed on a train, in which case for this policy, they would stand to make one thousand dollars in the event of Mr Dietrichson's death. So they're like, let's cash in on that, which is like a bajillion dollars in money, right, yes, So they arrange for Mr Dietrichson to take a train on his upcoming trip to Palo Alto. But before that happens, Mr Dietrichson falls and

breaks his leg and calls off the trip. So Phillis is freaking out, but Walter's like, it's cool, we just got to be patient. And then also Walter and Phillis are having an affair throughout this whole thing, and he keeps calling her baby in its growth. Yeah, that's how you know that they're in love because they kissed two times and he calls her baby one million times, And that's that's love. That's how love works. Yes, So Walter

tries to take his mind off the whole thing. A week or so passes, and then one day he gets a call from Phillis saying that her husband is taking

the train that night. So this is their chance. Another thing that I just I thought was like bizarre and finding when I was reading about the just the way that this movie was written, because Raymond Chandler was a co writer on this, was that he, like I guess, he spent a lot of time in l A trying to like get a feel for like this this movie, a lot of the moments feel like that as an l sketch where they can't stop talking about traffic and intersections,

because there's so many times where the characters are so specific about like what street in l A they're going to to, like go roller skating, or it's like, yeah, I'm going to Formosa and Santa Monica that blah blah blah blah and her houses on those fields boulevard. I was like, this is not That's not what that looks like. It's like I was like, did it look like that?

But yeah, it is very like this is l A, but it doesn't like I wouldn't put it in an l A category of like if you want to watch movies about l A, because it didn't feel like l A in any way other than the names of streets. I just thought it was funny that they like felt that it als like a self conscious reflects to be like, we're definitely here and we know the names of the streets too. Okay, So that night, Walter does a bunch

of things to establish his alibi. Then Walter kills Mr Dietrichson as Phillis drives him to the train station, and then Walter gets on the train pretending to be Mr Dietrichson and jumps off the train and fakes the accident, and then they put Mr Dietrichson's dead body on the tracks, and it seems like everything went according to plan, but Walter can't help but feel something's wrong or they like, you know, he's going to be found out or something.

In the days that follow, the police find Mr Dietrichson's body. They rule it an accidental death. But then Walter's boss, whose name is Edward Norton by the way, um I also was like he's pissed that the company is going to have to pay out all the money on Dietrichson's policy, and he's certain the death was not an accident. He thinks it was a suicide. So he calls in Phyllis, who says like, that's ridiculous. My husband didn't die by suicide.

And Keys, who again is a skeptic, believes that the death was an accident at first, so it looks like Walter and Phyllis are going to get the one thousand dollar pay out. But then Keys is like, wait a minute. If Mr Dietrichson knew he had accident insurance, why didn't he do anything when he broke his leg? So then Keys gets to thinking the whole thing was a set up. Meanwhile, Phillis and Walter are freaking out. The whole situation is

tearing their relationship apart. Then the daughter Lola pays Walter visit and tells him that she suspects Phillis murdered her mother several years back. I like Lola. She's a smart cookie. People gotta take Lola more seriously. Oh my god, the amount that she gets gas lit by Walter in this movie, and then he starts dating her basically to distract her. I know, is it ever stated how old she is?

I feel it's heavily applied that she is a teenager, Like she's in school, so she's going roller skating, she needs permission from her dad to go places. I was really curious about this, so I found the screenplay that was written in the forties to see if it's said. And it does say how old she is. She is nineteen according to the screenplay. That's convenient. I guess that is. I loving creepy movies where they're like, Hi, I'm eighteen, so this creepy thing that's about to happen is totally legal.

And then she turns to the camera she's like, I'm eighteen. Recently and like you're just like, oh my god, um, that is interesting that that they felt the need to specify.

And by interesting, I mean we aired right. Yeah, so either way, he I meat, whatever there's I mean, it's still creepy because they start dating and he's thirty five and she's nineteen, and and it's under false pretenses, like there's so much about it, and there's this whole other boyfriend to Zaketty right is in the is in the works here, who's not looking particularly in nineteen years to me. And also speaking of like male toxic behaviors. When we

meet Zaketty, he is just like, who's this guy? You can't when you're with me. You can't be with this guy. He can't know about me, I like. And it was just like really aggressive and she's like no, no, baby, I love you, and you're like I know, like you just worry for this poor girl and she's been through so much and like the it did make me laugh when the Zaketty guy was like, I don't have friends and like, well we can see why. Y. Yeah, you're you're a little abrasive, right, Yeah, I don't know. I

mean that when he starts dating her. I was like, this can't be happening, and like we've had age gap conversations on the show before. I don't think we need to get into it today, but like this one, there's a pretty obvious uh no, thank you. Right, So Lola thinks that Phillis killed her father now too, so Walter is like gaslighting her and distracting her so that she doesn't tell anyone else about it. Keys, meanwhile, is piecing things together more and more. Basically, he has the whole

crime figured out, except for who pulled it off. He doesn't yet know that it was Walter, and because Keys is like getting so close to the truth, Walter wants to distance himself from Phillis, especially because he also continues to see Lola, and especially because he finds out that Phillis has been having an affair with Lola's former boyfriend, Nino's a Ketty, so he does have a friend he right,

So then Walter goes to confront phil this. She shoots him, but he doesn't die right away, and he gets the gun and shoots her and kills her, and then he goes to his office and starts the confession that we saw him recording at the beginning, except Keys comes in and overhears so Walter tries to leave. He wants to escape across the border, but he dies from his gunshot wound before he can even get out of the building.

And that's how the movie ends. So let's take a quick break and then we will come back to discuss and we're back, Okay, Can we talk about the Fatales just for a minute? Oh yeah, yes please. So I dragged Caitlin out to watch Batman Returns, the best movie that's ever been made recently, And when I left the movie, I was thinking about how my feminist analysis has become much more nuanced and more open to things like Catwoman. Um, whereas I, like ten years ago, I would have been

like this sexist piece of ship Da da da da da. Right, So I was thinking about this with fem fay twels because like on the surface, and maybe not the surface, but this is kind of what I wanted to chat with you about, is like they seem incredibly sexist representations, right, And Jamie, you started us talking about like films and and like narrative media often bring out these anxieties that are coming around at the times that they're they're being created,

and so you know, like it's exhausting to be like this manipulative woman who's just trying to get money and kill her husband and like a lot of fem fay twels, is that kind of like women are sneaky and duplicitous and they use their sexual whiles to like get men to do things for them. Right, Is there like in your minds, is there any nuance to this? Is there any way in which that is like salvageable as not

fucked up? I think that it's like it depends. I mean, I don't I don't have like I don't know how you feel it, but I don't have like a hard answer to that. I think that the more context I had for why these characters were so popular when they were so popular, um kind of clarified how I felt about it, because I do think it's like, ultimately it is a I think it's like the kind of misogynist trope that is easily reclaimable, but it was not intended

to be reclaimable. It's like very much a clear like the most heterosexual white dudes in the world are writing this at a time where women were, I guess, unusually able to access money and capital and power during World War two, and so I feel like it's it's just like calcifying that anxiety and selling it back to men

who are feeling the same way. I do think that there is an angle to reclaim the fim fatale that has been kind of reclaimed in some neo noir movies because and I think, like, I didn't remember this particular detail about this movie, but the fact that Phillis, you know, they include the detail that Phillis is being abused by her husband, and so I feel like there's an in right there for like that, well, we got to get revenge, Like but that's the thing is she's so manipulative that

why would you believe that I had that? I thought too where I was like, is that part of Because so in addition to like using her sexual wiles and you know, her feminine wiles and her sexuality and exploiting that to deceive and seduce men, the fem fatale archetype also is just like flat out lying and using deceit to get what she wants. And I it did occur to me, like is that the case, Like when she reveals that her husband is abusive, is that actually true,

which very well could be the case. But because we don't see it on screen, we don't see the abuse. It does make you wonder like is that part of her deceit? We don't really know for sure. I mean, I guess that I believed it. Maybe I'm a Walter too, but I believed it because you saw all of the other behaviors that she was describing in that conversation. You did see him like he was drinking a lot during the day, He was dismissive of her, he was belligerent

towards her, he was dismissive of his daughter. And so because that was sort of where I was going where I was like, well, you it seems like you know, it wasn't like she was like, he's this awful piece of ship. And then you met this very sweet husband who was very in love with her, Like it did seem like he was I mean, didn't deserve to be thrown off a train, maybe, but but I don't know.

That was where I saw the end for this was buying into the story of this woman who is unhappy with her wife getting revenge, which of course like changes when you find out that she also killed his wife, which is. So that's where for me, it's like it kind of falls apart where it's like this witchy stereotype where you have no what like why why why does she start killing people? What is the motivation? What does she get out of it? Who is she like? What

is her background? And all of these things I feel like would make her a much more accessible character, but it feels like that information is withheld from you by the writers intentionally, So you're just like, this woman is evil in a in a vacuum. We don't trust her, and she's using sexuality to get what she wants. I

don't know. I'm very conflicted about it. Um same, yeah, like it's I do I do understand why them fatale trope has been reclaimed and why it hasn't like disappeared, because it's also like I feel like in in the nineties, this is like a kind of an unusual role where it's an active female character right that she is involved, like so deeply involved in the plot, and she moved

things forward. Everything is her idea for the most part, and it's not like there were a lot of movies at this time where you could just you could see

a woman do anything except be mommy or wife. Right, Yeah, the fim fatale character, by nature of the narrative that's being told, usually means that that character has way more agency than a lot of female characters that we've seen in like cinema or literature before or since, like, and then you can make the argument that it's representation on screen of like a sexually liberated woman and a woman that has sexual autonomy over her own evil to be

sexually And that's that's always where I diverged from a lot of the feminist analysis of this stuff, because I was like, but is it, like if she's evil and manipulative and we're supposed to think of her like as a bad you know, like as a bad person and because women are evil, just because she has like is in tune with her sexuality. I don't think that that's a pro for us as a movement, right as like

feminisms you know, in general. But I think that there has been a push in feminist film theory specifically to try and kind of wedge in this like sort of positive angle on some of these films that I just don't think works. Like, I don't think that analysis really right because when things that we are hoping to see such as like women having autonomy over their own sexuality when that is being vilified. Obviously that's not it's not a plus for us. And I definitely don't think it's

like a movement pushing trope at all. I just understand why people I feel like it almost maybe I'm off here, but I feel like it kind of the impulse to reclaim a sexually liberated woman who's clearly enjoying being evil, It like almost scratches the same edge of reclaiming queer coded Disney villains where you're like, Okay, this was done with like not a kind intention to the community, Like this is like it's clearly vilifying this care but they're

having so much fun and it's like they're so active that and and also like I feel like it's very important that it's like and this was the most you could get at this time. I think that that has a lot to do with it as well. Yeah, where

like there just weren't options. Yeah, I want to just reiterate and agree with you on that of like, marginalized folks have been desperate for representation at all, and we take the scraps we can get right, and we and we left read, and we queer code, and we do all kinds of things to feel seen and and recognized in a medium in entertainment in general. Um, so yes,

but also like, but also it's a problem. Um related to this is I think there's also the other piece of this is around complexity and allowing marginalized characters to be evil or to be messy, or to be complicated, because historically we don't we don't really have that right that you like, queer folks are always villainized and black folks always die, and you know, like we have all

these tropes that don't come out of nothing. That there is something to be said about the fact that, like, yes, it's kind of cool to be able to see to see women in a character that is more complex than the housewife or the love interest, but it's still detrimental, right, And so holding those two truths in some way, I think is what makes these conversations so rich and and interesting, right, I totally agree, because this character could have been made to be more complicated in a way that we as

the audience could have conflicting feelings about, Like, yes, I understand her motive for wanting to get rid of her husband, and I see where she's coming from, Like I would identify with that also, But you know, murder also isn't good. So I don't know. But the movie and and many of these movies just paint the fum fatal character in these very broad strokes of like, well, no, her her

motivations aren't complicated, her backstory isn't complicated. She wants to steal, she wants to cheat, she wants to She's evil for

the sake of being evil. And to me, it comes back to intent as far as like the people who were writing these characters, because you know, the fem fatale character in film noir specifically, because this archetype has existed in literature for centuries, right, right, but for film no war specifically, Like you said, Jamie, it was in response to like men's anxieties over you know, empowered women and sexually liberated women like the Flappers of the twenties, and

how men felt threatened by that voting now right, And because in a patriarchal structure that is designed to disempower women in all capacities of their life, including their sexuality, a sexually empowered woman with agency and autonomy is going to be a threat to a lot of individual men

and a threat to the larger structure. So because because that's the reason that film fatales were written that way, and these like broad strokes of like they're evil because women are scary and I'm I feel threatened by them. And also contextually to remember the early like the turn of the century was like there was a he like one.

There was the fight for women's right to vote, which obviously complicated and I don't want to erase the racism and everything around that um, but also there was a huge like huge battle for birth control and like reproductive rights was happening at the time, and there was a huge attempt to squash it. It's I mean, it's so exactly what's happening right now. It's like nothing has changed.

But you had around that time, well the postman ster guy, the guy that is really famous guy in the early nineteen hundreds who decided to make it illegal to mail any anything in the mail that is like sexual in nature, so like not even sex toys or birth control, but also like love letters and photos and all of that

kind of stuff. I didn't know that, Yeah, And so there is a whole like through legal means, a pushback against the rising tide of women's sexuality and sexual ownership and you know, rights to birth control and all of that that's happening. So that is also informing some of what I think we're seeing in the film Fatale as well. Yeah, that makes sense. That's really interesting. I didn't. I wasn't. That is such a fuck up thing to do. Holy

sh it, it isn't. Another one of the episodes coming into and I'm like, what is this guy's fucking name.

I'm totally like, yeah, I don't know. Um, Jamie, you started to touch on something as far as like Walter's character goes and how his motive is so flimsy, and to me, like he's saying that that was like written intentionally, which I also find confusing, maybe in an effort to like just lean into the idea that, oh, women are so scary and be aware of any woman who is sexually liberated because she's going to get you and she's

gonna kill you. I wonder if Walter's character was written the way that it was to just further emphasize that, because again, he doesn't seem to have much of a motive to commit murder. It just seems that he's kind of like under the spell of this woman and her quote Feminine Wiles, where you know, it's just like this

idea that don't be a weak man. Weak men are tempted by these temptresses and you'll succumb to the temptation, which like, yeah, Further is the argument that she's literally like a variation on a witch right and like has her anklet has him like wouldn't normally do. I was also reading that they, I don't know, just a few things were done in this movie intentionally that I guess I just assumed we're not done intentionally, including her bad wig.

They're like, we chose a bad Billy Wilder said that they chose a bad wig on purpose to underscore what a sleazy phony she was, and like, I know, it's like measures were taken to really make you hate Phyllis, which I think is fun because I watch it and

I don't. I don't hate her, And I wonder how if there were women in the audience at this movie, because women have always been the majority movie goers throughout history, and I wonder if there were women in the audience at this movie that we're like good for her, you know, right, right, you know, but yeah, Walter, I mean, I feel like it is kind of inherent to the noir genre in a way that's kind of frustrating, And I feel like some neo noir's have course corrected this because it doesn't

need to be this way. But like all of the characters are kind of mysterious, or that's what you're told. They're like, oh, everyone's kind of mysterious. You don't know what's going on with anybody, you can't trust anybody. But then what you lose there is like you don't know anything about anybody. So it's really hard to get attached to any particular character because you're like, well, I guess we'll see what happens, but I don't know, like what

this person's deal is. I would have loved to understand what drove Phyllis to kill his wife. I like that is like such an important piece of context that would have drawn me into that character's story so much more. But they're just like, well, she's evil, so of course she would do this. Yeah, I'm interested in So, like, what we've been saying is that neither of them have very good character development at least to the standards that we would expect of today. And I think that there

is such a reliance on stereotypes of the time. So, like this guy nef Right, the actor who plays him, Fred McMurray, like we're like, oh, you're fucking awful and terrible and I hate you. But he's probably coming in with all of this like goodwill from the audience that

makes them like him more than we have any context for, right. So, and I know we've covered this, but I'm just thinking about the fact that, like there's no character development in this whole fucking movie at all for anybody, right, Like, nobody really you know, you don't really get their motivations. You only get them because of the plot, right, like the like moment to moment plot of it all, and and and so what are we bringing as the audience

to attach to that? Also, I say this as someone who's like obsessed with character development, and if you don't fucking have it in your movie, I'm just like, get the funk out of here, because like, and I do this all the time, and important I'm like, I don't understand why these people love each other. I have no you did not give me a reason for it, right, And so in the same way in this I feel like it didn't matter because like what an interesting concept,

this is? What a why like what interesting lighting choice is were made? And what you know, all of that kind of stuff that would suck at audience in at the time. But why do we still hold onto this as the quintessential epic? You know, like you both talked about how you watched it several times in film school, how it's like the movie and like this is the thing that we're teaching young filmmakers is really really important, right?

You know it also and this is something we've talked about on the podcast too, But it's a matter of like who is designing these curriculums in film schools. Who is curating the lists, like you know, like the best movies of all time lists that this movie is on, like every fucking one of Like who are it's like members of the academy, like all of that. Who are the critics historically? Who have you know, hailed movies like this? It's again historically been siss white men with like curriculum too.

I feel like there is such a like copy paste effect where it's like if if and this varies, but like if professors were paid, you know, more for their labor and had time to put together their own curriculum and actually like watch ship and and like build their own stuff, I feel like you wouldn't. You wouldn't have every single college freshman in a film program watching Double Indemnity.

But it's just like, oh, yeah, I guess this is a movie you watched during the noir section, and so every kid being extorted for money by this big e. Anyways, I wish I couldn't gone to college waste of time. It's also self fulfilling, right, because you were taught that this was really important. Therefore you're going to teach that

it's really important, right. And I also was thinking about how we often look at film, um and media in general, music whatever, from time periods as representative of the time, but they're really not, Like this is such a good example of that where not sorry, I'm gonna temper that

a little bit. Whereas like film up until very recently was not something you could just fucking go do, right, Like it's not something that you could us like film on your phone and make movies and be like I have a story to tell and I want to tell it, so we're not getting we don't have the alternative perspectives of in film media, specifically of that time period, of all the women who are like fuck yeah, we're like

taking over and like doing all of this stuff. Right, We're only getting the impressions of the dominant powerful in the moment, right, right. And I think that I'm just thinking about this now as we're talking, But like how that makes us think that this is what the past was, right? We erase all of the histories of everything else and every other culture and every other like subculture and like groups and that aren't represented in what they were doing.

And it makes us in a lot of ways not understand the history of activism, not understand the history of uprising, how change actually happens, because we only have these movies

to tell us what it was like. But not only but you know what I mean, Like right, I mean, it's it's like movies like this that like are the status quo, they maintain the status quo, and then yeah, everything else just gets pushed to the side and a race and then we don't learn about them unless we're like we take it upon ourselves to like dig and

find this stuff. I think that that's that's a that's an excellent transition into the case that this that Double Indemnity the book was based on, which I did a little bit of light googling on and found it to be pretty interesting. I feel like we actually had like a recent ish conversation about this when we did Chicago. It's kind of dealing with the same era, so and and just kind of like how the adapt like when men are adapting the ideas of men are adapting the

ideas of men. It's just this like funked up game of telephone that ends up with like I have to kill someone because she's got a sexy little anklet. And then it's like, well, let's trace this back to the source of what was actually happening. Um. So this is a screenplay by Billy Wilder and Raymond Chandler. There's a bunch of interesting drama that's not relevant to this show

that I just enjoyed reading about. So it's a screenplay by them based on a novel called Double Indemnity by an author named James mc kane who wrote that book when he was a reporter writing about a double indemnity case that he attended as a reporter, and and so I was like, okay, well what was that crime? And was James Caine. My my little hunch was that James Caine made it sexy for no reason, and that there was probably something going on. Jimmie, did you have a hunch?

Did you have a do you have a little man living inside you? That tells I have a little man? And I took up a little magnifying glass and said, let's go to Wikipedia dot org and see what's going on here. And so that's what I did. Um. So it's a case of a woman named Ruth Snyder from the late twenties who did do the double indemnity thing and and killed her husband, Albert Snyder, and went to jail.

It's also a case of how brutalizing marginalized people is always going to get a lot of press attention and really exploitative press attention, because she was eventually killed in the electric chair, and they published the photo of her being executed on the front page of the newspaper and it was one of the most famous pictures of the

nine twenties. So it was absolutely horrific. The reason she committed the crime was not because she was a witch or uh sexy little anglet have her um it was because of and this actually, I guess I I feel darkly vindicated, even though I don't know what you know, what the writers of the movie thought. But her husband was very physically abusive and emotionally abusive, and he abused her because she had a daughter instead of a son, which, um, gender is a construct and no one has fucking control

over that. He had like pictures of his ex fiance hanging up around their house and refused to take them down. Like it just sounded like an extremely emotionally and physically volatile, abusive relationship. And so eventually she she doubled indemnity did

and she and she killed the motherfucker. And and I just thought that that was such a It's it's frustrating, and I think it's interesting that you can take a story that tragic and upsetting and turned it into well, of course she was evil, and we can't even take her at her word that her husband was being abusive because she can't be trusted and she's you know, like, you know what if it is based on that, I bet you the her husband abusing her is actually real

in the movie. But they didn't do any due diligence of making that established. Right, Yeah, you you sort of like brushed upon this. But this idea of sensationalizing marginalized as grief and bodies and um. And I think that that's a really critical piece of all of this is that like, well, women are dainty and non violent and don't do these things, and therefore, holy shit, they did this thing. Isn't that like sensational and cool and interesting

and newsworthy? Right? And that is also gender essentialism, right, we're talking about um, you know, like all humans are capable of all things, right, we all have the same I mean not all, you know what I mean generally speaking, But because patriarchy says that women aren't these things, it's really interesting if we imagine women to be all of these you know things in terms of violent and murderous and whatever what have you, not not to erase the

fact that there is already patriarchy dictating that women are manipulative and conniving and all of that. But you know that it's just another piece of how why I think these these stories get sensational and they still do. They still do, Like we love women as victims, we love

like rutalized, like true crime. You know, we're not even going to get into the nightmare that is true crime currently, and we love a female villain because it seems it still seems like something outside of the norm, right, Yeah, I think writers justify continuing to like use the tropes because it's like, well, it's interesting, it's it's cinematic, it's

these are interesting characters. It also makes you, it makes me wonder, at least how much more sexualized and sinister fem fake tale characters in film noir would have been during this era if it weren't for the restrictions of the production, Like, how much like how much worse could it be? Right? Yeah, I mean, but the answer is the women in the nineties like action heroes, female nineties

action heroes. Right. I've been rewatching all the Terminator movies because we're doing an episode on the Terminator franchise at Feminist Frequency Radio you can check out on my podcast.

And you know, Terminator three had a female terminator and like there's a scene where she sees a billboard with a woman with larger breasts, so then they like pant to her boobs and she makes them bigger, so she can like get so she can manipulate the cop into letting her go when she was speeding, and you're just like, one, this is such a product of its time. But that's

what this would have been. It would have been some kind of equivalent to the sexy, you know, hyper sexualized using feminine wiles to get what you want, right, that's true, or like basic instinct. Yeah, where like Sharon Stone's just like here's my vagina. Now You'll never you won't even notice that I'm a murderer yea. And again it's like it's interesting to me historically that the trope makes that big comeback in the nineties because it's like a similar

era of feminist backlash. And so it's like that is when this trope pop, says, when women's rights are being actively set back, So you know, look out for that. If a FM fatale starts to pop, guess what, we're about to lose some rights, which we're doing anyways, that whole like mid nineties to time period was all the

like ironic sexism and ironic racism time period. So it was part of the backlash of like coming off of the eighties the conservative family values messaging that was being pushed by the conservative establishment, and then you had all of this like but we're beyond all, We're beyond sexism. So now you get those Carl's Jr. Commercials where women are like eating the burgers and like come is running down their faces and all that ship it all that

all comes out of that moment, and that's funny. Remember this, You're like, I don't remember that. Like, so I made a really really early Phonus frequency video. I'm sure it's embarrassing as fun now about ironic sexism and how like South Park is this and so it all that was when we got all of those female act heroes that like, you know, the reboot of Charlie's Angels and um, you know, like all of that stuff where you're it's they're so

cringe e and hard to watch. But it was women's empowerment, the Spice Girls and all that ship you know, Oh yeah, feism, Um, yeah, this is I'm so glad. I was really hoping that this would be the way that this episode would go. When we would just get into it, I'm very excited. I just feel like this movie has more for us to talk about in terms of the relevance of what this movie means to us today than the like actual

content of this movie and versus what's happening. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I totally agree, and I just want to the last thing I had about them fatals. I just like, I don't know, it's just such interesting timing. But like how this trope of just like an empowered woman as a dangerous woman, We've had so many conversations about that, and how it easily translates to like so many which characters,

even like recent Witch characters. It's just like coding a woman as competent and therefore evil and therefore unlovable and therefore like not the protagonist under any circumstances, which I don't know. I mean with the fen fatal, I mean I would argue that I don't. I guess like Walter doesn't feel like the protagonist of this movie to me because I don't care about him. But maybe that's just personal.

But anyways, as far as the fetal trope went to citly new references earlier, but it goes back to ancient times, like we are addicted to uh mothering any marginalized person, but in in this trope, specifically women and the only like growth in the trope in this era of Hollywood is that the fem faetales are more active now they're

used to be. Like the earliest examples of the fan faytal trope are like women who are just being told they're evil just because so like you have like your Helen of Troyes where they're like, she's so hot that we had to have a war about it. Like they're completely passive on top of it. So I'm like, I

guess I prefer an active and fatale. But even so, I mean, it's just especially with the context of like the case that trickles down to this movie, it's just like, well, clearly, it just couldn't be more obvious that there should not be exclusively men telling this story because if you go back to the source, it's so much more complicated and and and like having those two or three bits of context completely changes the way you would view that character

or that person Ruth Snyder, who was abused and exploited on on the other end of of being abused to the point where her corpse was in the fucking newspaper. Like that stuff makes me so mad just to call out, like women will women women who have who have murdered their partners, mostly male partners in self defense or because of abusive relationships or what have you, like, are rotting in jail like that. It's still not and it's disproportionately

black and brown women who are incarcerated for it. It's just like it's but no, but no. Phyllis was anklet. She was evil. She's bad. She just kills everybody for reasons. But I love watching Barbara Stanwix, So it's hard. Anyways, Can we talk a little bit about Lola? Yeah, let's talk about Lola. I don't really know what to make of her because we only really, we only get to see her in a few brief scenes. We learned that she's dating this guy, Nino's a ketty who does a

piece of work. It's a good character name. I have no friend. He's an asshole. She's in love with him. We don't learned her age in the movie, but again,

according to the screenplay, she's nineteen okay. Uh. Then basically Walter gaslights her and coerces her into a brief relationship, which seems to work because she kind of like magically forgets all about her suspicions that her stepmother probably killed her father, which she is right about, but because she's being manipulated by Walter, the story has her forget about that.

So I mean that to me, just this just feels like another just female character in the movie who's not a fem fatale, but who is wildly underwritten and who the story has her make some confusing choices, And again, like, I don't want to I'm not blaming her for being manipulated and coerced by Walter, but a lot of her choices and just kind of the way she was characterized

didn't track for me. And also because we don't learn anything about her, I think I kind of like have stopped paying attention around this point in the movie, not essentially, just in the way that that happens when you're sitting at home. And I totally like, I don't think you're wrong, but I did not read it as him manipulating Lola. I just read it as like creepy, like getting away from Phyllis, and like, because all that stuff was revealed about Nino, that like he was just moving in that way.

But now I'm like, oh, that makes so much more sense that he was. He literally says and his voice over. Yeah, he was like, I couldn't let her tell anyone else about suspicions, so I took her to the beach and I took her for some French frien. He's like basically saying, like I hung out with her to distract her, and then it seems like she might have developed a crush.

It's like like it seems like she develops a crush on him, or at very least he is presenting himself in a position of authority, and I like he's like not just leveraging his age and his gender, he's also leveraging his job over her. He's like, well, I'm an insurance guy, so that's like he's gas lighting her in the grounds of like well I know what I'm talking about. You're just a kid, Like what do you? What do

you know? Okay? Then, was Nino sleeping with Phyllis or was she manipulating him to like to to sort of put a button on this whole murder thing. My read was that that relationship might have been a bit more like mutually consensual, but because Phillis is characterized as this like very textbook from Fatale, that she was manipulating him and maybe just she was maybe just like setting up a few different fall guys so that she wasn't so culpable.

But that didn't make sense to me, Like her relationship with him. I didn't understand why that was happening. Maybe we missed something and maybe like listeners are like frothing right now, they're like it's so hot, but like, yeah, I sort of was like I just I was like, oh, I guess by the end of a noir you just have to find out that everybody secretly knew each other the whole time or something like. It just felt very like genre e I wasn't totally clear in that either.

But also, if this is the blueprint, Like if this movie is the blueprint, then this movie created some funked up blueprints. You're like, it's kind of a confusing blueprint. But I do I mean, Lola, I feel like there's she's definitely underwritten, and it sucks because I feel like the early scenes with Lola I was kind of like gently encouraged by because, as I said, at the beginning, I didn't think there was going to be a second

woman in the movie. So I was like thrilled and I was like, oh, There's a also that cutting thing where Phillis was like, yeah, and he just loves his daughter so much. I was like, Phillis, give it a rest. I assumed that they were talking about a child and so, but they were talking about a nineteen year old whatever. But I do like that Lola. Like when Lola is introduced. I liked how her character was introduced. She like pushed back and like her dad was like, who are you

going to see? What are you doing? Blah blah blah, like doing kind of the stereotypical controlling father thing, and she like lies to his face very calmly. She's like, I'm this is what I'm doing. I'm going to this intersection and like goodbye. And I was like, oh, I like this character. She's fun. Like she's it's I feel like it's unusual, especially in for the first interaction you see with a female character, for them to stand up for themselves in some way. But then it's like that slowly.

And I also like that she is the person that sees through everything that's going on, which makes it more disappointing and shitty to see her talked out of what she knows is the truth. For the rest of the movie and then she disappears. Right, I was rooting for her, same justice for Lola, and now she's lost all of her parents and now she's a nineteen year old orphan. Like but I guess in a way, she's also presented as an obstacle for Walter because she starts having suspicions

and he's got to deal with it. So she's under characterized and she's presented as an obstacle the way that many women are in movies. Right, wouldn't be so cool if she like was the one that solved it, right, I was like that, you know, like if they just did this like spin at the end where she came around and was like, let me tell you, I figured it all out, and now I'm going to extore you all for something, you know, I would have loved that.

Or I wish that she had showed up and killed Phillis because it's like she and Phillis had such a terrible relationship. Phillis literally killed her mother. They didn't want to play Chinese checkers together. Like it would have been cool if Lola came back at the end and like killed them both and then was like all right, Zacchetti

let's go make you a friend or like whatever. But instead the only like you know, bow you're sort of given on her thing is like, oh and she'll probably get to date this asshole again, because Walter tells Zaketti like, hey, call Lola back. She likes you. And I was like, oh great, what a what a win? I get to date a man with no friends again. Also that whole scene, I was like, he's gonna know that you did it.

Like the whole scene. I was like, he pops out of the bushes and it's like, go hang out with Lola and you're like, Wow, you just outed yourself big time. They're so bad at planning. I also don't understand how what Nef does to kill Mr Dietrichson. I think he strangles him, but like, wouldn't the autopsy show that he was strangled and not fell off of a train. So like their their plan is just like very I don't know,

it doesn't make any sense. Also, Walter's plan to communicate with Phyllis, as they're like creating their scheme, is for her to go to a shop every day and quote be buying things every day at eleven am. And if he needs to talk to her that day. He'll just like show up when it's convenient for him, because women be shopping. She's to go be shopping all the time every day, and then he'll be like and he might

not even show up. Yeah, And also part of this is that he's like, we have to go to this shop because we can't be seen talking to each other. So his idea is to meet in public where people can see them talking to each other, but they're like shopping, so they're not really talking to each other, you know. Yeah,

that's really funny. And also I like those are really interesting scenes too, in terms of the sterileness of it and like the brightness of those shots and like, you know, like we didn't really talk about any of the visuals in the movie, but they're you know anyways whatever, right,

right right. I mean that I feel like that is like a large portion of why these movies are still well regarded as because they look really fucking cool, like they're they're the shadow play and this, and yeah, my favorite line in the movie was when Keys said Papa has it all figured out. I jumped in my seat.

I was like, this guy is weird. I like, speaking of Keys, the one part of the movie that I was like, Oh, this isn't the worst thing I've ever seen is where uh, I think once, maybe even twice, Walter tells Keys, which is a colleague of his, but

they're also like close friends. Walter tells Keys that he loves him, and just like a very like we have a close relationship, and it's we're not led to believe that it's anything more than platonic, but like, I just really enjoyed seeing like a man tell another man that he loves him, because that's not something you see very often, and certainly not in this era, where you know, men are conditioned to think that like even a platonic affection

towards another man is gross or something. Who knows, But I was like, Wow, they were friends and they loved each other. Too bad that Walter's the most boring man alive and Keys participated in the Red Scare, but you

know they were friends. They were friends. Um. The last thing I wanted to mention is something that's very typical of this era, which is the representation of people of color in the movie, which is that they are only seen very fleetingly and always in like service roles like train porters and you know, wait staff and and things like that. Um, well, there was one character I wrote a note being like, there's a character from Inglewood that kind of looked like he was in brown face, and

I was like, what the fund is this? I did wonder about that glapis or something in that early scene. Yeah, yeah, there was. I was like, oh, this is not good. Yeah, hard to say, but representation of people of color is scarce. There's always been bad, and then in this era especially. I would like to take that on in a in a future episode as well. We should continue to pursue this conversation for sure. Absolutely. Does anyone have anything else

they want to talk about regarding double indemnity? No, when are we going to do it? Let's do a double indemnity heist crew and kill someone's shitty husband, good money's what are they gonna do? Put us in the electric chair and then put it in the newspaper. It wouldn't happen. Yes,

that will be our claim to fame. Feminist podcasters do the ultimate feminist podcasters get the electric chair for thought crime feminist more like fem fatal in this nice I think I think we're going to get the electric chair just for that, not that we should be joking about how awful sucking? Um, what's it called when the state murders you? State murder? Capital coupital punishment, capital punish. This movie does pass the PacTel tests, though, yes it does.

When Lola and Phillis are talking about how they don't want to play Chinese checkers with each other, Lola says, do you mind if we don't finish this game? It bores me stiff? And then Phillis says, you've got something better to do? And I think those are those are the only two. That's the only example of an exchange between two women. And don't worry they hate each other. I mean, I guess it does. That conversation is there to establish that they don't like each other, but the

text itself is like not narratively meaningful. So to me, it's like a barely pass. It's a barely pass. But I think it's a funny. It's a funny barely pass because it's just a hostile exchange between the only two women in the movie. As far as our nipple scale, though on a scale of zero to five nipples based on how well the movie fairs when examining it through

an intersectional feminist lens. I'll give it a half nipple for the following reasons that we see a woman have more agency than a lot of women have been able

to have in movies. Of course, that agency is vilified, and we are not meant to empathize with this character at all, and when instead we are meant to see her as an evil temptress, which is how unless you know, there are a few examples of like a subversion of the fim fatale trope that you know have happened in more recent films, but especially of this era, there was no nuance. There was no complexity in general to the

fim fatale archetype. And um, even though, like we discussed, there have been maybe some attempts to reclaim the archetype, I don't It's not in the text of this movie though. Yeah, and it doesn't work for me, especially with the intent of the storytellers and villainizing and empowered and sexually liberated woman don't like it. I'll give the movie one half nipple, and I'll give it to Lola, who deserved more justice. For Lola, I guess I'll give it one question mark.

I do think that this is like the most active female character that you could find in movies at this time.

Unfortunately I am, I am a little more pro reclaiming, and I think that it has been semi successfully reclaimed in more recent neo noir efforts simply by giving uh woman who does something bad context and motivation, which is like, I feel like, what is really really missing here, especially with the context of knowing what the source material is and how it's like Anita was saying, like this, this movie is presenting a reality that we are told existed

but never did, like no one was ever acting and avoid like this, which is are not a thing. But I do appreciate how active the villainous woman is throughout. And also I Lola. I mean, she has a strong start and then I feel like she's kind of like

neutered by this story, which I found frustrating and unnecessary. Yeah, I mean like because of the era it is extremely white and straight and and and we didn't really talk about this, but the the whole idea of like you're kind of told the end at the end that the great tragedy of this story is that it turns out that Phillis could love after all, and you're like, who

gives a ship? Like and there's like this last minute production code style like the redemptive power of a love between a man and a woman and blah blah blah. Like it's just I guess I'm bumping it down to a half nipple, and I'm giving that half nipple to the line. Papa has it all figured out, beautiful, Anita, how about you. I don't think I can add anything to what y'all said, So I'm just gonna piggyback on that.

But I just, um, I'm going to give my If I'm gonna give my rating to somebody, my non existent rating, it's going to be to the line. I hope there aren't any pigeons shooting on you while your son bathing, because I can't go out for that. Oh it, zero nipples is that way you're giving it? No, I'm I'm just gonna I think the half nipple is a good one. Okay. I agree with what both of you said. Nice, well, Anita, thank you so much for joining us and having me.

Thank you come back any time. Tell us where people can follow you on social media? Plug anything you would like to plug. Yeah, so you can follow me on the social media's at Anita Sarkisian. And one of the things I do is I run a emotional sport outline for people who make or play games. It's called the Games and Online Harassment Hotline. So if you need a little emotional sport and you live in the US, you can text us. You can learn more at games hotline

dot org. Our agents are trained in understanding like internet culture and gaming culture and online harassment as well. So if you're you know, even if you don't play games and you need a little bit of help around some of this stuff, we're here for you. So games hotline dot org. We're also in the middle of our end of your fundraising campaign for the hotline and everything else that feminist frequency does to try to end abuse in

the video game industry. So if you want to pitch in a couple of bucks to that, feel free in addition to your Patreon support of the Bechtel Cast. Right, because we all we just share. We we've got to share. There's no scarcity here, so um or it's all scarce you don't one or the other, right, um So, yeah, you can learn more at games outline dot org. You can check me out at Nicha Sarkis and on all the things. Oh also my podcast radio. If you like this,

you'll like what you do. Yeah, give that a listen, everybody, and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast and speaking of that, Patreon ak Matreon you can find that at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast. You get to bonus episodes every month, plus access to all of the previously released bonus episodes, of which there are over one hundred. So check it out. Look at them. Go really putting in the time. You better join and if you desire any if you have any merch related needs,

we've got you there too. You can go to t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast and get all of your oh it's it's guess within season right now, baby grad there you go get your baby Grinch t shirts and I guess now is the time where we shoot each other. Let's shoot each other and kiss. No, no, you you put you push us off a train? Oh so right? Sorry, sorry, we definitely but not really. We're going to just pretend. Yeah, I mean it's a pretty good mystery, right, I mean, I know we're done talking

about it. But I'm like, that's a pretty good scheme. I was like, cool, I'm on board with this. Yeah, except that they executed badly the execution. The idea was good. I maintained the idea was good. The execution they clearly were ill equipped. Yeah for sure. All right, Well, thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure talking with both of you. The pleasures all ours. Bye bye, bye bye.