D.E.B.S. with Ellie Brigida and Leigh Holmes Foster

it's fine, it's a test. Well, this is our this is our podcast about the representation of women in movies, using the Bechtel Test as a jumping off point for discussion. How did I do? That? Was so wonderful? Thank you so much. And the Bechtel Test, if you're not familiar, if perhaps you're tuning in for the very first time,

is a media test. Um. And actually I wanted to go into a little bit more detail than we normally do because I think this is like the perfect episode and the perfect movie to provide just a little more context and talk a little bit more about the origins of the Bechtel Test than we normally do. You're being a real lead deb right now. I am the squad leader. The squad leader. We're going to get into a fight, but by the end we will make up and our French one of us will be in love and the

other one will be in charge. So you'll be in love and I'll be in charge. That's because that's how our normal lives are right now. Okay, anyway, so Alison Bechtel queer icon. She inadvertently created the Bechdel Test in her book Likes to Watch Out For published in UM.

I feel like some people think that she like deliberately set out to create this specific media tests, but it was more than it appeared in the book, and then that was later co opted into the tests that we now use, and that is widely used to apply to you know, media and movies and things like that. Alison Bechdel credits the idea to her friend Liz Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Wolf, specifically Wolf's essay A Room of One's Own Um, which is a feminist text.

The Bechtel Test is sometimes referred to as the Bechtel Wallace test um, which Alison Bechdel is said to prefer. But we are jerks, so we only call it the Bechdel Test. I love and friends, credit friends. Yeah, it's

critical it's it's great um. And then in the comic des to Watch Out for Um, it has to lesbian characters, and the context of their conversation is that there is so little queer women representation in movies that the only way for them to imagine that a female character in a movie might be a lesbian is if she is seen talking to another woman and they are not talking about men. So that is the origin of the Bechtel test. And I just wanted to share that to our listener.

I'm less sure the original comic on our on our Twitter. Well, I know it's readily available, so we can do that as well. Indeed, this history Corner, Yeah, a new segment on every episode. Please got no? Shall we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm so excited. We've got to today, very exciting time. They are the hosts of the lez Hangout podcast. It's Lee Holmes Foster and Ellie Bridgatta. Hi did I say that right, Brigata? It's Bridget Bridgeta. But

I think you should change. Honestly, I love it, Brigata. It sounds a little bit more like the things that I love sounds like it sounds like a beverage or bread. So sorry for fucking up your name, but welcome. It's all good. They literally messed up my name at my graduation and I waited for them. I was like, you're going to get it right. So they said it like seven times that I finally walked does an incredible flex. So tell us, Lee, let's start with you. Um, what

is your history your relationship with the movie. Oh, by the way, today's movie is Debs. Yes, Debs is a cult classic two thousand technically two thousand four, but released widely in two thousand five rom com technically, although it feels like a d com to me in a lot of ways of getting a lot of d com vibes. Screens, Yeah, so many green screens and like goofy like kind of music.

Very d com. It's so great. What is your experience, Lee? Okay, So my experience so because I'm going to say, yeah, I feel like I first saw Debs in college, which would make sense. That was like right after it came out, And I would say my experience with Debs is that for a really really long time, when we would try to talk to like friends or people about like queer movies, we would say for a long time. There's like one like good queer movie that's like a real movie which

has imagined me and you. And then there's like two amazing, like campy movies, and those are Debs and But I'm a Cheerleader. Um, And so for a long time, Debs was like that go to of like it's so terrible and amazing just all at the same time, and there just wasn't a lot else out there, so so you'd

kind of just watched those. We talked about this on our But I'm a Cheerleader episode where our guest was like, there are only two fun lesbian movies, and one of them is but I'm a Cheerleader and the other one is Debs. It has been like a request for a long time. Yes, it's such a classic. It's such Yeah, it's such a horribly amazing movie. The first time that I ever saw it actually was when I watched it with Lee podcast yeah called Less Central. I had never

in it. Yeah, it was the first time that I had seen it, And I don't know why I hadn't seen it before. But I'm also a bit younger than Lee, so I was I was definitely not a lesbian or I was a lesbian, but I wasn't out when Depths came out. Um, so I saw it for the first time then and have since watched it probably five or six times. Yeah, yeah, because everything else is so depressing. Like if you want to watch something to beat and lesbian,

like that's it. Yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship? Like most movies, I've never seen it before until today and I watched and I watched it twice in a row, and it's like it's so at my alley in so many ways. But it's just like the low budge vibes you get from it, the multitude of like the character directors are out in this movie, some wild character actor choices. Uh, that outfits are weird. I just it's it's everything. Uh,

it looks like it costs seven dollars to make. And I love I loved her, Donna Brewster, and it was just she's so good and it's weird because I don't I haven't seen I mean, I guess I'm mostly judging her catalog from seeing on her on my mom's soaps when I was really young, because she started as a soap star and seeing her in The Fast and the Furious movies, but this is the most personality I've seen her ever display ever. It was just like, I really like this movie. Yeah, what about you? Um I had

not seen it either. Um, I knew of it just because it had been request It's a common request for us to do on the podcast, and that was the first time I learned about it. I think it's just yeah.

I remember someone in like a college film class I took presented on it and being like college myself of like, oh, yeah, I'll watch that, and then I was like, no, I gon't watch a movie, don't work it somehow flew under my radar, which is unfortunate that this like fun queer movie was not even in my like wheelhouse or I just I wasn't aware of it, because I feel like I have a pretty good handle on most movies. Even if I haven't seen them, I've heard of them or

I know about them. Twice. Thank you so much for bringing it up, because you know, I don't like to mention that I do have a master's screen screen running from Boston University, but uh, yeah, it just when did you go to be you? I went there between Oh, we were probably there at the same time. Yeah, Boston. Yeah, it's where I did my PhD. So okay, trying to I'm sorry, are you are you trying to upstage me? I'm sorry. I found that much more impressive degree there.

At the same time, though my blood not even a very stressful But what did what did you study? Chemistry? Oh? A woman? That's that's why it's like, not impressive at all, and no one ever wants to hear about it. You know you're I'm not impressed by your PhD in chemistry at all. I think we also overlapped with a Casio Cortes though, didn't we? Oh she was I think she graduated inn I think something like that sounds right, Yeah, so I I missed her. So she and I overlapped.

So once again, this is a this is spicy cast sy. I'm never getting invited back to anything ever. You have a PhD in chemistry, you can do whatever the funk you want. Yeah, and I didn't earned it. I didn't mean for my reaction to be like, oh, it was more like, oh, I wasn't expecting that. I am actually very impressed, and you're a woman in stem so that's great. Let me tell you the most common response that I think I've gotten when I if I tell people that I have a PhD in chemistry, I think the most

common resp bonses what else do you do? Um? Really, so I'm not offended by any who are these people do that? That's fine? I want to fight these people, Lee has spot them. Oh good, good fight. I just tell them about my awesome lesbian podcast. That's all. I just have two very niche things. It's cool. Oh, also really quick. I also got some just taking the temp

from the room. I was also getting some Josie and the Pussycat vibes from this movie visually, like if Josie and the Pussycats had like a fourth of the budget kind of like that, that's my statement, and like a zillionth of the star power exactly. They're like, we have Hall and Taylor, but we only have her for three hours so naked account and she'll only film in one rooms green screen it every time this movie takes place in the same room, and I love it. Okay, So

should I do the recap of the movie debs? Yes? Please? Okay. We start with some wild voiceover that says that there is a secret test hidden within the s a T that measures a student's innate ability to lie, cheat, fight, and kill, and those who score well on this test are recruited into a secret paramilitary academy and they call themselves Deb's d e b s. The like first thirty

seconds of this movie, I was like, what's like? Watch it three times to just be like I get the feeling they're not going to explain this again, and they don't. They do we ever find out what DEBS stands for? Yes, we do, end game? Yeah, what is it stand for? It stands for discipline, energy and beauty. Oh but it's also like debutantes because endgame is like prom basically. Yeah, but yeah, she does doesn't like Holland Taylor indirectly define it,

like ten minutes before the movie is over. Yes, when she's reprimanding Amy. A choice was made being a big old lesbian. Yes, your one to talk, Holland Taylor one to talk. I know there, but this was like pre Holland Taylor didn't come out until a few years ago, right, she was not out when this movie was made. She was. She was leaving breadcrumbs for all of us. Yeah. Okay, so that's some of the background on debs um. Then we meet several of the Debs as they're on their

way to Deb's academy. Um, almost like Santa University was almost like Santa Universe. Yeah, for sure, for sure. We meet Dominique. She is French. She's always smoking a cigarette, very sex positive, She's got many different dudes in her bed over the course of the movie. We meet Janet. She's a little absent minded, she's a little slighty. Um. We meet Max, she is the squad captain, and then we meet Amy. She is the top student at Deb's academy. She's a great spy and she is in the middle

of breaking up with her boyfriend Bobby. Bobby, what a chick. They did not do They're like, no, no, nothing that's likable for Bobby. Hey, Jeff Stults would have been like hot off of his Seventh Heaven run at this point, right, true, Oh, I I forgot that that was where I recognized him from. There are so many people in this movie where you're like, oh, I know that you're from somewhere. I feel like he wasn't much more likable in Seventh Heaven to me. I mean,

he's pretty horrible in this movie though. It's the worst. I mean down to the pokah shells. Oh my god, always bragging about his dad that belonged to his father, right, what is that? Yes, he's like my dad shells. Like, please started this on therapy, keep your shells out of this. Yeah. For he carries around a collection of his father's bracelets for some unknown racing and it's always like urgent for him to put the bracelet on her in midair. It's like, no,

you gotta put it on my dad's bracelet. Now I love it. Okay. So the four of these debs meet up with Phipps, who was played by Michael Clark Duncan and Ms Petrie who is Holland Taylor and Queer Icon, and they're like, hey, Lucy Diamond is back in the States, and Lucy Diamond might be a reference to something, um, nothing that I've ever heard of, don't really do a general name. So weird that those two were to be associated. I don't know. I feel like it's completely original and

not an allusion to anything. Sick, just checking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So she Lucy Diamond is a smuggler, she's the leader of a crime syndicate. She's turn to Brewster, She's ridiculously hot. She's very hot, which Amy definitely recognizes. Yeah, oh, I just didn't expect her to be so good. She's straight out of like many shampoo hair commercials, even though no one's ever survived an encounter with her, right, yeah, yea. And she is planning to meet up with an x

KGB turned assassin named Nkotchka. I like Nikotchka a lot more. I simply cannot pronounce names. I think, yeah, Nikotchka were joining out um, And so Phipps is like, hey, to do surveillance on Lucy. But here's the thing, it's very dangerous because Lucy has never fought anyone who has lived to tell about it. Amy is especially excited because she's writing her thesis on Lucy Diamond. Of course she is. And are they supposed to be at the same age?

That was quite I was like, are you right? Was she writing her thesis on some some in her age or is she supposed to be a little bit older. It's really unclear in the same way that it's unclear, like it seems like they're supposed to be in college through this, but they treat them like high schoolers the whole time. And they're dressed like stereotypical private school high school students. Well, I don't know, typical private Yeah, I

think they would definitely be sent to the principal's office. Yeah, they're dressed like a Halloween costume. Oh yeah, well we'll talk about that. But yeah, I think they're meant to be like seniors in college basically because they say they're in their fourth year of Deb's academy. So Lucy is just like a a gay dropout who blazed her own trail and thus is essay material. True. Yeah, hard to say how old Lucy is meant to be. I got the impression that she was maybe a few years older

than the debts. But again, she's right, UM's what we know. She's hot. She has a friend named Scud. Yes, I don't have any more questions. And we meet the two of them, and we find out that Lucy is planning to meet up with this ninotchka woman because they are going on a blind date, and we're like, whoa, Lucy is a queer icon. As it turns out, Scud is really wanting Lucy to be in love because that's such

a good wing man. Scud is like, it's practically his job. Like, we don't really see him do much else other than be like, you gotta be in love, Lucy, move on, you got this. I was like, damn, Scud, you're really rooting for her. Scud is like a walking Lesbro slash motivational poet during human form. Yeah, you have to be open to love. You're so supportive. It's great. Peaks good. So the debs go to the restaurant for this steak out and Lucy shows up and she's there with her

date and it's not going very well. In a very tall restaurant, the ceilings are like eight ft high, and no one ever looks up. Lucy. It actually is a pool, if anyone noticed, I just noticed this time. Yeah, it's it's definitely an empty pool that they turned into a restaurant because on the wall it says like something about swimming, and if you look on the sides there are little things that say the height of it, which is six ft,

so it's not that tall. Excellent budget they had, They're great, great, great. So Lucy does spot the debs who are just like hanging out in the rafters and so this lee to a big shootout. Whoa, whoa, wait, it's not that she spots them, it's that Bobby checks, as you're so wont to do when you're hanging in little swings from a restaurant's thirty foot ceiling on an espionage didn't. They're all

in like circus swings is part of the plan. And then like every single one of Bobby's dad's bracelets is a Chekhov's gun the second it comes out, because it's just gonna happen. I would also like to believe that there's an entire semester's class of Deb's Academy that is solely devoted to balancing on those swing seats because they like move they can like shift them back and forth, and they returned at all, and the swings don't swing

that much. They seem pretty stationary. I'm interested in this technology. Same. So there's this big shootout and to uh, Lucy and Amy find themselves face to face, but instead of killing each other, they sort of vibe that scene. Yes, it's great. And then Lucy gets away and she goes to Scutt and she's like, hey, I met someone. Her name is Amy Bradshaw, and Scott is like, you can't like her. She's a deb she's been, and she's like, not, she's she's she's the perfect score, which again we just have

some very subtle coded language in here. And then Lucy sneaks into Amy's room and she's like, go out with me. If you do, I'll tell you what you want to know for your thesis. Janet crosses their paths one of the other debs, and so she and Scutt get dragged along to this like nightclub that they end up going to, and Amy and Lucy start to get to know each other and then they almost kiss, and also Scott and Janet or five pool table. There's a lot a lot

going on. There's a pool table. There's a bunch of people that are like straight out of your you know, mid two thousand's small hot topic, so many mohawks, it's a lot of like giant metal ball necklaces. There actually is the guy with a potato stack on his end. I've seen this movie so many times that the last time I watched it, I paused it at a certain point because I was like, is that a potato sack? And it was so just letting, you know, look out for that a lot of Easter eggs because I will

watch this movie again. I think it's so much fun. Yeah, it's so. She and Lucy almost kiss, but Amy is confused about her sexuality, so she gets up and leaves abruptly. Now we're back at Deb's academy and MS Petrie is all like, hey, Amy lead this investigation to find Lucy, and she also gets promoted to squad captain because they survived the Lucy encounter. Yes, so everyone's like, wow, what a hero. And then Max is all upset because she's like,

wait a minute, I'm squad captain. This means there's some tension between Amy and Max, and as they stated whilst on the swings, they're best friends. And also Max did something that I'm like, Okay, this isn't what a great friend would say, but it did make me laugh of when she was just like, promise you'll never go to art school. I'm like, I wish I had a friend who had said that to me, right, Because Amy doesn't

have that much interest in being like a spy. She wants to go to art school in Barcelona exactly, which is just like, I feel like the default for any like broody girl in the nineties two thousand movie you just want to be an artist for a lesbian I mean just any less either or right. It should have been a hint read the science, Amy read the science. So then, um, Lucy robs a bank just so that the Debs will like go and try to stop her, because she's trying to lure Amy there so she can

get closer to her. And then Amy's like, ah, sorry, but I'm not romantically interested in you, Lucy. But then also but and then in that scene, Lucy also almost kills the Debs and it's like it's a booby trap, and like, um, excuse me, you almost killed the Debs. She's like, what a good prying. I didn't laugh about this later, I just like, I don't know if I want to be in a relationship with this woman now. I mean, we'll talk about the nature of their like

the whole um. There's some strange twists. Yeah, So that they kiss, Lucy and Amy kiss and Amy is all like she changes her mind. She goes with Lucy. The Debs all think that she's been kidnapped, but it's really just them hanging out, spending time together and having a great time, which is a great montage. Also, they do appear to be in plain sight almost all the time. Right. Also, the montage is confusing time wise, because it to me, this montage appears to take place over the course of

like many moons. Yeah, but they do mention later that she's only kidnapped for a week seven days. Yes, so they really they just kinda made it seem a little bit more than it was. Maybe they move really fast. I guess that let's let's not talk about lesbian stereotypes quite yet. But you know, also they're in their college aged I feel like in college a million times I would tell I would tell anyone I loved them. After a week, like yeah, They're like, do you love me?

I'd be like, sure, I don't know. Could be true. So then um, Miss Petriet orders a search for Amy, and the Debs find her while she and Lucy are naked and kissing, and so, in an effort to cover up what would be a scandal for Deb's academy since like Amy was consorting with the enemy, they planned to instead they're going to name her deb of the Year at the big end game event. And it's Max's idea.

It's Max's idea, and she's very smart, and she's going to give a speech to accept this award, so to speak, and her ex boyfriend Bobby is going to be there with her to make it look like they're together. Nobody has ever been more excited to take out a girl who has no interest in them than Bobby is to take her to anything. When they're dancing on the dance floor, she's literally like standing still. He's like busting all these moves not he doesn't look at her at all. Bobby

is such a child, it's wild. I was pissed when Max called Bobby when they had a lead on where Amy was. I was like, man, Max, that's not what a friend does. Don't call the ex boyfriend who's who wears Puka Shell's never call him. Never guy. Ever. So

we're almost at the end of the movie. Um, everyone is mad at Amy for her whole like wording with the enemy thing, and she's forced to suppress her feelings for Lucy, and she say that she's not in love with her, even though we know that she is because she's wait, sorry, super quickly, we missed a really important part of the movie. What the montage where Lucy Diamond decides to reform her ways? Oh God, yes, because in order to be in love, you do need to change

everything about yourself. So Lucy's like, I'll do whatever it takes to win Amy back, and so she starts to return all the money that she stole from people with the help and support of Scott. Scott is they're they're singing karaoke together and what appears to be her bedroom, like they're just it definitely is her bedroom that they pan out and there's four other people there. Dan say,

so it's like every crime operation has their backup dancers. Okay, yeah, yeah, true, especially during a reform montage trying out, she has a little batman signal that's Lucy Diamond that turns into Amy be mine. That's great. So now we're at endgame, which was essentially this ball prom kind of thing, and Amy is giving her speech and Lucy shows up to be like, hey, I actually love you and we should be together, which was sort of Scott's idea. Um, and then Amy is like, hey,

here's my speech. It's such an honor to be a deb and blah blah blah, and then she's like, but just kidding, and then she's yeah, she literally gives the whole speech, and then she's like Comma j K. And that is why I actually need to tell you that I love Lucy Diamond. Also, wait, can we just come it real quick? On the speech accepting the deb's highest award ry, Jane, Oh was that a week? Didn't get it?

It's just they're throwing them left and right, damn. Like it's taken many viewings of this movie to just really pick out all of the first subtle hints and you know, just hidden language in there. There's a lot of, first of all, really funny jokes, and I feel like a lot of them are fairly subtle, Like there was stuff I was picking up on I didn't pick up on until my second viewing, and I feel like there's still a lot of stuff that I missed. So yeah, I'm

excited to go back and rewatch it. So Amy's like she professes her love for Lucy, Lucy is there. There's this big fight that unfolds, and then Lucy and Amy are running around the cross paths again at the same place that they did the first time they meet, and they're like, oh my god, let's be together and all the debt shop and they're like, wait, what does that mean?

That endgame took place in the pool restaurant. Oh, I guess the oncation scenes they did have one building for ten days, but that takes place and it's like a warehouse that they're running around in. So maybe there's the basement warehouse under the pool restaurant, which is also in Dev's academy. Maybe Dev's academy. The exterior may have been mostly a green screen. I'm not totally sure. I don't I guess they sort they could have been in the

pool restaurant. So then Amy and Lucier like, yeah, let's be together, and the DEDs are like, okay, we accept you. And that is pretty much the end of the movie. They right off into the sunset they got in Janet Get Together too. Yes, Yes, happy endings all around. Indeed. Um, then she has to be like, this is my boyfriend's scud, which is too bad. So that's the story. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll come right back and we're back. Hi. Hello. There's so much to

talk about, lots to talk about. So to start us off, Lee and Ellie, we just wanted to get your take on just kind of the overall representation as as we already kind of talked about. Um, this is one of a very few, like fun queer women movies that exist at all, um still to this day. So we just want to kind of get your initial thoughts on like the representation of queer women in this movie, and just sort of your initial take on on that. There's a lot.

There's a lot so much. I mean, one thing we will say is I wish it wasn't so accurate to be like, oh, here's one lesbian, she's a crime lord, and here's the other lesbian, she's an overachieving student, and they're gonna like move in and fall in love in approximately three hours. Um, well we have you hauling, which, like we like to say, is a lesbian trope that honestly is true. Like you know what you're like, that's

a stereotype. But then you look around at all your friends and they're all lived together and they've been together for like six months. So describe for us what you hauling means. Okay, So you hauling is a lesbian term where basically there's a joke what does a lesbian bring on a first date? A U haul? Basically that move together, move in together very quickly. I've never heard that term before.

That's funny. Oh really I thought that, like everyone knew you hauling, But we just live in a lesbian world, so yes, So it's just this, it's a stereotype that lesbians moved very quickly, fall in love very fast, and go through like every stage of the relationship very quickly. So seven days isn't really that unrealistic. I know, I wish it was less accurate, but yeah, that's pretty accurate. I do want to talk a little bit about one

of the things that I think is problematic about Lucy Diamond. Yes, even though I love her and she's so beautiful, she is the predatory lesbian stereo type, yes, like, which what I mean by that is you have in lesbian movies usually one person who is already out and a lesbian or bisexual however they identify it, but they're already out, and then you usually have someone who's in the closet, and you have this person who's already out pursuing them

very aggressively and then kind of like trying to coax them, that kind of trying to turn them in a way, which is very problematic. So Lucy Diamond at one point says she's into me, but she just doesn't know it yet, right, and then continues for the entire movie to basically hold Amy hostage in order to get her to fall in

love with her. Yes, right. I found this to be very similar to another problematic trip that we come up upon in hetero romance movies, just sending predatory a manse in general, right, like basically framing stalking as romantic, where she does so many different things, where she shows up in Amy's room various times and uninvited, She threatens her with a weapon to get Amy to go out with her, She robs a bank and then almost kills her friends

to again try to get closer to her. I still can't get over the whole movie track excuse him, like, who are you kidding? And Amy also is like, it's very sweet that you did that for It's like, I don't know if that's the right term. I feel like they're all things where if any part of this movie was even a little bit serious, it would immediately fall apart. Yeah, for sure, because this is a very silly, campy movie.

But yeah, that was one of the biggest things I noticed as well, where Lucy she is basically stalking Amy, but it's framed as romantic and this method of seduction yields successful results because they end up together and not for nothing. I found it interesting where I totally agree that that there's are like elements of predatory romance between Lucy and Amy. But Bobby kind of does the same thing to Amy at the beginning of the movie, where she can't get away from him and he's like, why

did you bring up with me? Why did you break up with me? And he's like popping up on all her devices, and then he slides in on his freaky swing. He's like, he's like, why did you bring up with me? Here where my dad brings let and like it. It seems like a pattern in Amy's romantic life, but this

story doesn't really address that well. And when when Bobby is doing it, it's framed as she feels as though she's being pesterred, and which is true, it's a valid But then when Lucy does it, it's like, oh wow, look how much she likes Amy, and look at all the efforts she's going through to try to get with her, and fan keeps almost killing other people shouldn't be with them. In fact, Lucy even says at one point to Amy, She's like, you say, I can't see you. I see

you anyway. It's this little game we play and it's supposed to be this like, you know, cute moment, but it's like, no, you're right. It's like, is it a game or do you have a tracker that somehow can identify everyone in the world is either not Amy or Amy? And she does have that, yes, And then when the and then when the writing also indicates that like being stalked is secretly what Amy really wanted anyways, and Amy really did want Lucy coming after her because this is

what she like. It just it's it's just not a good message for for young impressionable No, not really, even even if that predatory lesbian returns giant cartoon sacks of money with dollar signs on them, which just not enough. Well, that was another I mean, I mean, that was another thing that sort of bugged me about their relationship. And I guess, I mean, it is such a campy movie

that it was. It's not like I feel like, no, I wish she was a mean bank robber forever, but that but that felt like another well worn trope of like one person needs to change everything about themselves for this relationship to work, like you have to where there's literally that scene with Scud I guess can't say it enough. We're like Lucy's like, man, I really love Amy, and Scuds like, so, do you want to give up everything

you've worked for? And Lucy's like yep. Well. And it's funny too because there's this huge running theme in the movie about like finding yourself right, and they have that whole conversation when she's kidnapped, being like, you know, you should be doing what you love and Lucy's like, I am doing what I love. But then she like tosses that out the window. You know, maybe she could be a pirate though that was so weird too, but it was like Lucy, pirates are criminals and He's like, whoofs Oh,

everything I want to be falls under the criminal category. Yeah. So, now, what what's she going to do after she's returned all this money? Like can she even afford to live now? It seems like she probably can't afford rent on her a big way. People cannot live on an art grad student salary. I just say, if Lucy's about to go to grad school, they're fucks. I do not assume that she did very well on her S A T S because she definitely assaulved that dude there. Yeah, there's I mean,

who knows. There's a lot of parts of that relationship that just don't work in terms of setting an example. But there are other scenes between the two of them that I really liked. I really liked that scene where they were talking about, you know, Amy is going with the path that she was put on without questioning it, and then Lucy's challenging that, and she was like, yeah, I do bad stuff, but it's like that was a choice I made and I stood by it, which makes

it weirder that she dials back on it later. But I liked that scene between them a lot, Like they do seem to challenge each other in a lot of ways and don't hold back, which is nice because Amy doesn't do that with her friends as much. Right, Yeah,

you do. I feel like in so many mainstream movies, which of course are mostly hetero, you see the romantic relationship if there is one in the movie, you rarely get a sense of like why the two characters like each other, or what they connect about, or what they even talk about. But I feel like in this movie, you get more of a sense of why they connect, and it is I mean, for the first chunk of it, Lucy is using some very questionable tactics and not even

just the stalker stuff. It's like she's also kind of like negging her and or like being condescending to her, Like in the scene when they're in the nightclub, she's just kind of like being mean to her in a weird way. Well, that's that's flirting, right, That is flirting you right y? Yeah, yeah, the timeless tactic that works

on us all. The thing that comes out in the scene in the club that made me laugh the most was like you can tell that maybe at some point Angela Robinson gets the story note that like, uh, we should make it like, don't make Lucy too bad because in that like Amy's like, well, haven't you killed a lot of people? And Lucy's like, no, they died of various diseases and or froze to death, so I'm actually a viable love interest and is like because I'm not

a murderer, I'm just a robber. Yeah. That made me I don't know, I thought that that was like very fun camp be on purpose. Bad writing and I enjoyed it. I hope it was on purpose, because if not, that is nuts. Right. Well, and that's and and that's sort of the one line where Amy's like, you're just not what I expected, you know. Yeah, ah, yes, they're I'm sold on this now. Yeah, you know. And you ask someone if they murdered someone and they say no, you

just believe them if they're hot. But only if they're hot, yeah, only if you want to kiss them. Yeah, And yeah, Well, and I think it's believable too, because their actual sexual chemistry is really believable, which we don't get very often in lesbian films because you have less of them, so the percentage of like good chemistry is going to be lower, right, Sure, But I actually like them together, Like when they're romantically together,

they're cute together. They're believers, super cute together. I was rooting for them that montage. It's adorable. A lot of sitting on cars, the milk yeah, yes, spooning on cars, milk shakes, I'm like, yeah, sure, gifting each other handcuffs, just just cute stuff. The thing I wanted to talk about is in terms of like the queer representation. I feel like if there is a character in a movie

who is like identifiably a lesbian. In mainstream movies, she's I feel like she's often she will often be fairly butch presenting. Unsurprisingly, a lot of these movies are written by straight people who have like a very specific idea of what lesbians look like and how they present. Um, So it's like pulling from those stereotypes and then helping

to reinforce them. In this movie, the two queer characters who we see are very fem and I feel like you rarely see that, and not that this is an especially mainstream movie, but like I said, in in mainstream movies, you're seeing these very stereotypical ideas of how lesbians present, and it's always like plaid flannel, wearing like short hair, like you know, nice pair overalls. Yeah, yes, well, and this this is also one of the only movies that

you have both of them being femi. I do feel like a lot of the times you have one super butch lesbian and then one bisexual feminine woman, like that's like a very common pairing, but to have both of them be fem presenting is not as usual. That's what I was because I think they are trying to be like, well, look, there are different lesbians, but only if one looks like a man and one looks like a woman, and like they there they have this like heteronormative look to them

even though they're lesbians. Right, Yeah, so I thought that was the very least interesting that you see that on screen when it's normally not that way. Well, while we're on the topic of how characters are presented in in this movie, just like a quick a quick moment for wardrobe choices. So it's a camp movie. I get that. However,

I mean I think that this this movie. It's confusing because this movie is so over the top campy at times, and I'm like, I don't know if you if you were making a point or if this is just what was in the budget. I had the second It's hard to know. Sometimes I wasn't sure if the costumes were commentary or if they were just not good enough enough money for more fabric yet the budget being whatever they

found in Angela Robinson's pockets that day. Yeah, right, because they are wearing private schoolgirl plaid skirts like that are way shorter than even the other students at Deb's academy, who said earlier than it looks like Halloween costumes. That seems like the perfect description, which one is not appropriate for the spy stuff that they're doing. Like no, because

some of them are wearing heels swings too. If anyone ever looks up exactly if anyone looks up in that huge restaurant, they're going to be like, you know, I you know, I don't know, we do know, we know what you're getting at here. I don't they're the wardrobes,

and this falls into like I don't know. I mean, there's there's a lot of this movie seems to be parodying movies like Charlie's Angels, but it seemed to just sort of be making some of the same choices without much commentary at times, Like if there was ever a point in the movie where it was pointed out that, like, hey, this outfit doesn't make sense for what we're doing, then I would sort of be more willing to be like, oh,

it's satire. But they they're just kind of always dressed in ways that they could be so easily killed and not practical. And also where you just have to wonder, I mean, for how many guns they carry in this film, where are they keeping them. Where do you hide guns in that skirt? That's what I wanted, and they're huge, huge guns. Yeah, I had a lot of these very

same questions. Also, when you consider the what I imagine as the intended audience of this movie, which is queer women, then becomes I guess catering to like the queer female gaze rather than the male gaze, because you know, it's these traditionally by Western beauty standards, traditionally beautiful women who all have the same body type. They're wearing these tiny skirts, some of them are wearing shirts that reveal their middrift like,

some of them are in heels. So it's catering to I would think, a different gaze than we're used to seeing when it's you know, a mainstream but the alps are the same. But they are the same, and it is still showing like this very specific and rigid standard of beauty because again, they all have the same body type. Yeah, there's no there's no like diversity in terms of body type in this movie really at all. I mean, Max

is a little shorter than the rest of them. My I was talking to my boyfriend about this movie today. I guess he saw it on the Sundance Channel when his mom wasn't home and he was twelve, and he was like, it honestly changed my life. It's one of Isaac's favorite movies. No way, I didn't realize girls could kiss other. He's like, my mom wasn't home and I just like I taped it. It was like a um, we have to take another quick break, but we will

come right back. Speaking of the where do they keep their guns question, there are women with actual weapons in this movie, and it makes sense for the genre. But we've covered so many movies recently where if a woman has to fight someone because they're a woman, they're fighting with kitchen appliances or cookwear or knitting needles or fighting fighting words. So in this movie, at least, the women have guns. Not that I'm pro by any stretch, but

in an action movie, it stands it's appropriate. Yes, I mean, there are a lot of ways in which I have to say the women, you know, they get guns, they have agency, they're smoking, they're you know, like sneaking boys into their rooms. Like there's a lot of things where they don't they don't really kind of treat them like they're not able to do the things that they're supposed

to be doing. It's just in a very very campy way. Yeah. Well, and even in their hand to hand combat, I don't think a DEB has ever been knocked out, but like all the men are just incapacitated. That is one of the cool Yeah, I totally agree is their abilities are never called into question, which although I have one important question about Deb's abilities, which is when you have endgame right and Lucy crashes endgame and Amy runs away with her and everyone sees Lucy Diamond and that dude sounds

the alarm and everyone freaks out and starts running. Isn't every single person at endgames supposed to be a highly trained lose their minds? They're like, why are those four dead's the only debs who seem to have any idea of what they're doing? I just think that when I was during my first viewing, and then for some reason during the second viewing, I was like, I guess I don't care, but like at the DEB school and like, why are they the only four that ever get to

do anything? Are the other debs just not ready or are they doing stuff we just don't know? They're freshmen? What are their classes about I think they're the top squad, like the top squad. Maybe they get gun privileges or something. I don't know. Seniors. And then here's something I wasn't totally clear on. Is Deb's academy like an all women's school or there? Do men go there as well? It

doesn't look like it. But also I don't know, because but then what is Bobby's deal because he's always wearing something that says homeland curity. Yeah, I don't think he goes to Deb's account. How did they meet? Spy mixers? Oh? He was like, oh yeah, I'm dating a Deb part of Homeless Security. You meet on a steak out at the pool. Alright, nice meet, cute, very cute. But they do make Bobby look like an idiot, like in Always

He Can, they can never find Lucy Diamond. At the end, he gets beat the crap out of by Lucy Diamond with literally one kicks out. So the men in this movie are not great, except for Scud. He also gets knocked out though by Janet, but he loves her because he's in love. He's into it. Yeah, feminist icon Scud because love is Hardie war is easy. Love is hard. Another thing that we don't get to talk about that much.

And this movie I think goes kind of halfway as you don't get to see women eat in movies a lot, which is also crazy, but we uh, there is that scene at the very beginning when they're with Michael Clark Duncan where all four of them at least order breakfast, and you hear that at least Max appears to eat food and the rest maybe not as much. But Dominique literally just gets a coffee coffee, but she's all she She just exists on coffee and cigarettes and that's it,

like all good French people do. Coffee, cigs and sex are new podcast. But I was I was like, we didn't get to actually see women eat, but they did order. I feel like that's not quite enough. It's a step in, you know, getting the order of that progress. I wanted to go back quickly to sort of the conversation about basically just the fighting that we see, which is often

the women fighting men. And we've talked about this on different episode odes where it's like, Okay, well, in a in an ideal world where we have gender equality, shouldn't women like shouldn't men be able to like fight women in these action scenes and like maybe even knock them

out and stuff like that. It's been a complicated subject that we don't really know how to broach, especially because in movies so far in where there's action sequences where there are women fighting, it's usually they're fighting other women, so or they're only given a rolling pin to defend themselves. In this movie, like we said, we see like women fighting and then usually kicking the ship out of the men that they're fighting, which you know, I enjoyed. I

feel like that's a step in the right direction. And I think that the reason that it doesn't really like, I feel like that conversation, as important as it is, doesn't become super relevant to this movie because it's so campy and so it's not like, you know, we know that the Debs are better fighters than all the guys they are going up against into going into it, so it's never like a battle to the death with like with a man finding and what like you know the

dev is gonna win and that the man isn't gonna die. So the Steaks don't feel quite as like you're like, Okay, Bobby's going to get his ass kicked and we're gonna love it well. And there is also some way in which it a little bit helps the cheesy high school

Catholic school girl outfits. Is that you know, when you look at Bobby and like the CIA guys and all those other spies are out there with like their suits and their outfits and their things and their boat proof vests, and they're you know, like big commando boots and everything, and the Debs are just like whatever, all I need is a tiny little skirt, maybe a flimsy button down, some heels, and like a giant gun and I'm still gonna kick your ass, right it like it kind of

has that same thing as like Buffy Allay did, where it's like she's just gonna out there and her jeans and her big blue dustard coat and and she'll always

win exactly. Yeah, I don't know, it was weird. It was weird, I mean, seeing I agree that that the way that the like, I think because the ability of the Debs is never in question, nor is the ability of Lucy that this movie, I mean, maybe that's what makes it so easy and it's so comical how the men are defeated that right, Like, it's because No, one

doesn't like watching Bobby get punched in the faith. It's different than seeing like Wonder Woman versus Captain America and one of them is going to kill the other, you know, like it's Jamie. Different comic universes, you know, I don't care a funking I never will that the day Lucy Diamond shows up in like the m c U. That's just does that mean? Wait? Does that mean that if they're in different universes they can't meet Captain America and

Wonder Woman? Ever, they can never made? Don't imagine? Well, I mean, who knows. Maybe Marvel and DC will you know, ten years down the line have to cross over. Hard to say. I hope that maybe there will be a Justice League versus Avengers movie. In fact, I'm pitching that right here and right now. They should just hear that, Hollywood. They should just stop making all there's too many. I think there should be more Spider Man into the Spider Verse movies for sure, and I think there should be

at least twenty of those. But yeah, they can take a break with I have a feeling there there will be if you just give them time. I'll be patient. Um. Well, that's One of the things with the movie Debs is that our four main deb characters are all women. The main villain is a woman. The head of Deb's academy, which is someone who all the Debs look up to,

is a woman. All of the male characters are secondary or tertiary, Like you don't this is a movie populated almost entirely by women, and the men who aren't in this movie are hardly in this movie. Yeah, they, I mean, at the beginning they try to do like Michael Clark Duncan is very much like doing an angel's wake up kind of thing, and then it's immediately revealed that holl

And Taylor is his boss. And if we're going to talk about problematic things though, can we just real quick touch on Mr Phipps, who I mean, while we talk about Lucy breaking into a oh my gosh without permission all the time, can we talk about how he can apparently just like operate preparation like with no warning and then has the audacity to give an inspiring monologue when he gets there. It's like, are you kidding me? And

is it inspiring? After you just told someone that your basic test for aptitude is how good of a liar, you are right, I don't. It sounds like Deb's should be the bad people based on the way they describe the test right, how they can lie, chat, fight and kill. But then they're like, and you're the best at it, so you're a goody two shoes. They're like, what what It's confusing? Who knows? But yeah, I mean there's a few scenes where there's a room full of people. Miss

Petrie will be there, the debs will be there. There will be like maybe one or two men in the scene, and the men are just treated the way that women often are in action movies, which is that they are basically scenery who are extras who don't say anything. Um. There's the scene where Miss Petrie is promoting Amy too Squad Captain, and she's accompanied by two men and another woman, and the two men don't have any lines in that scene.

It's only women talking. There's another scene it's like the aftermath of Amy being discovered, um, having a romantic relationship with Lucy, and all the debs are there, Miss Petrie's there, Bobby and Phips are there, but I think Bobby has one line in that scene, and otherwise men do not

talk in that scene. It's just like and it's only after Max tells him exactly what he's doing, right, you're going to She's like okay, yeah, so yeah, Bobby's basically in that scene to be offended that anyone might find out that his ex girlfriend is into a girl, right, which he which he later dials back on with a gross comment on the swing, which I don't think it's any mistake that that statement and the pooka bracelet are

in the same scene. You're like, yeah, he's like, oh that lesbian thing, it's actually pretty hot because it's night. He's like, I know you still love me and your whole lessie thing. That's kind of hot, And yeah, I think that that and Janet has one line at some point when when she's trying to like shame Amy for the whole thing, and she's like, you're just a slut again. I think those are two of the worst lines for me in terms of, you know, problematic things in the movie.

For sure, there's a few other things that are pretty homophobic, I would say in the movie, but I think because it's so campy, you I think you do realize, like those characters are clearly they're making it portrayed that they're wrong. Even Miss Petrie tells Amy like, you were out having your college lesbian experiment, right, Like this is just a phase that you're having, and you you embarrass the debts by being an experimental lesbian, which is obviously problematic. Right.

Were there any characters that made those comments that didn't receive come up in later because I was trying to keep track of because once Bobby made that comment in this scene. In both of those scenes, it's I don't know. My head just went to like, Okay, he has to get his as kicked or this movie isn't doing what it's supposed to be doing. Well. I think Janet gets away. It's got free and she's probably the most homophobic of everyone because she is shaming Amy so hard. Are liking

Lucy Diamond when they almost kiss she's so offended. Yea, she has that whole like she almost kissed you and you almost her. That's the thing that I'm interested in, and when everyone thinks about like the story, I feel like protects itself in a lot of ways, in a way where it's able to say kind of problematic things.

But because they set it up as like Amy's a hero and Lucy's a villain and conflating those the two issues is sometimes they're saying something about like it's kind of coded language of like sometimes they're talking about like, well, the hero doesn't like hook up with the villain, but they're also not talking about that. I don't know. It seems like the Janet character, especially kind of gets away with stuff like that by couching it with well, she

kills people, so you can't be with her. Also, the thing I'm not fully saying except for the times that she does fully saying, and because that's the thing, Janet is doing all of the same stuff at the very same time, like she's also in contact with Scott and

having this whole flirtation because he's a boy. M But I would I would say, at least my read on it is that in most cases, in many movies, if a homophobic thing is stated, that is how the movie feels about it, rather than how a character who is framed as being wrong by the movie feels about it.

So I feel like, with the exception of Janet and her sort of weird take on everything and then getting off Scott free about it, I feel like generally the homophobic things that are said are said by characters who we as the audience understand that feels more satirical and a lot and or yeah, I mean even and and even with Holland Taylor's I kind of wish Holland Taylor's character was a little more double down to like her

being clearly very wrong. But we always know that she I mean we we it's already set up that she's a problematic person in general when she doesn't give a funk about any of her mentees until they do something that makes her look good. So she's already set up as like a very petty person, and so when she goes on to make comments like that, it's like, well, we already don't like her. Yeah, yeah, I feel like ms Petrie is not the the redeemable character in this.

I feel like it's the arc is supposed to teach you about finding yourself and being true to who you love, and it does that not using her. It's kind of you know, you're watching that with Lucy and Amy Max to a certain extent as a character who I think is shown having that growth of realizing like, oh, well, a true friend will support you no matter what. Right, I agree Max. I mean, well, we haven't talked about

that friendship a lot yet. But Max and Amy's friendship is also very interesting, and also because their power dynamic in that friendship shifts a couple different times in the space of the movie, where at the beginning it's clear

that Max is in charge of the friendship. She's like, Hey, if you get to art school, I'll kill you, and Amy's like okay, and so it's like, okay, Max is in charge, and then you see her have like that crisis, and it's the thing is like when Amy's put in charge of the debbs for not being killed by Lucy. I don't know exactly where the movie how the movie wants you to feel, but I was like, oh, if I was Max, I would also be upset because Amy is always talking about how she doesn't want to be

a debt. Max is busting her ass and then has it taken from her because Holland Taylor's character isn't paying close enough attention to what the truth is and and so I was like on Max's side for a good portion and then she is very professional for the most part and like compartmentalizes and like his like Okay, we're on the same team, so I'll do it, and then Amy immediately fox up and almost gets all of her

friends killed. So I'm double on Max's side. But then at the end the Dynamics whitches again when Max is like Okay, deny everything and like play by the rules, and then I didn't like her again. I don't know that character is all over the place. But then she and then at the end she's like yeah, She's like it's almost like careful character development was not the most important thing. She's just flip flopping all over the place.

I was on I was on Max's side for a lot of the movie, and then she she really lost me in that scene where it's explicitly Max who is like, this is my idea. Deny, deny, deny, get back with your homeland security pooka shell got I like, yeah, this thing and she suggests body, it's all downhill for you from their Max and literally puts words into her mouth. I wrote for you say everything that I say, even when the other girls are like what if she's in love?

What if she makes her happy? I hate that. Amy and Max had a long discussion after the movie, so for really sorted their next pops up from the backseat in the car and they talk out their feelings. Oh good, Well, what I couldn't help. But notice about that relationship dynamic is that the two non white debs in the group are When it comes to Dominique, she has very little

screen time and or bearing on the story. She's basically just there is a visual joke who's always smoking a cigarette or and having sex, which is pointed right, And someone even calls I think it's Amy who calls her like a sex addict, and it's like, no, maybe she just that whole line because she calls people crazy and

sex addicts and like that whole line can go. Um. So it's either Dominique not having any bearing on this story, or it's Max, whose actions are often presented as an obstacle for Amy, so she ends up being sort of an antagonistic force for Amy a lot of the time. And meanwhile, you know, Amy is a blonde, white lady, and the characters who are people of color are either not doing much in the story or they are in

some way in antagonistic force. Yeah, I mean they're They're very much there to help Amy's story develop, and not much else. There's they're not very consistent. There's no real growth or any like, you know, there's not as much given to them as characters. Yeah, they're they're kind of props and and we're superwhere we want to know from

our listeners, like how you read that scene. I've had that that's that was the one reason why Max pushing back and being so frustrated when Amy just gets promoted out of nowhere. That's kind of like one of the reasons why that story point worked for me, because it is just like this blonde, white girl who accidentally does the right thing is is immediately put in charge, and then one of the only people of color in the entire movie who we know really cares about what she's

doing has gone unrecognized. Her work's got unrecognized forever, and she's just displaced immediately, and she's like she calls her friend out on it, and not for that explicit reason, but I don't know that. That was part of the reason why I was like, oh yeah, Max, yeah, fuck that, like that's that's horrible. But then but then they kind of sell that character out through poor writing. Oh sid

oh well, uh movies are bad. Um well, there's another very quick problematic line that gets said by Scud whenever they are doing this bank heist to Lord. I know that line he says, he says the R word, and you know he does. I used that. It's good and it's funny because the way that he says it and the sentiment behind that line and his delivery of it is perfect, and that line just needs to go. Is the thing. It should have been a different word word right,

like if it had been any other word. I mean, it's definitely one of those things where it's like it is a byproduct of a movie that was made in thousands, and like you'd never see that line of dialogue these I mean, I also think that's true of the guns. I feel like you would never see the movie done this way with the guns the way they are or the outfits. I bet, like, I don't think the outfits would be quite that way. Yeah, I think that I didn't realize that the R word was used in this movie.

I would not to cut a break in any way. But I do sort of agree that that is a byproduct of the time it was made in Yeah, it is, but that's what I'm surprised that it didn't jump out of you because it is. It's so noticeable. I feel like when you watch the movie. To me, it immediately was like this beacon where you're like, oh, you can't say that, like, you know, because if you were watching it today, you'd be like, who approved this line? You know? It was too busy whacking off to Scud to listen

to what he is saying. That might be the single worst sentence you've ever said, Jami the Scud, I think that's a fun phrase. Oh goodness, Um, I did wanna just quickly point out Amy's thesis. She says, my central hypothesis is that as a woman operating in a male dominated field, you felt the need to overcompensation. She's talking to Lucy. You felt the need to overcompensate by being

exponentially more ruthless and diabolical. Then you're established male counterparts, and I think that these psychological forces combined to create a kind of emotional void in which you're incapable of loving or being loved. Honestly, Amy's thesis sounds like a feminist text that I really do want to read. But well,

I don't know. I thought I didn't really love that thesis of like, I feel like that that that thesis to me, almost came off a little blamy of like, well, if women didn't resent their male coworkers so much, they wouldn't be killing so many people. And I was like, hold on, I don't know that that felt a little product of its timey and that's phrasing. Yeah, I didn't

give it. Something else that I also really love about it, though, is like from a queer perspective, you know, I think there's that whole idea of it's like, it's not that you can't love, you just don't love the way everyone expects you to, you know. I kind of like that part of it. Yeah, I like that whole scene because I don't know every scene where Lucy and Amy are pushing back on everything the other person says is good to me, it is there's a way in which it's well,

it's thought that it's bad. It's just there's a way in which I'm gonna completely undo everything we just finished saying about how like the depths are just so competent and they can do everything that men can do in heels and skirits, and they don't need anything. Everyone in this movie is the worst spy every and that scene is one great example where Amy's like, I have you at gunpoint, but like, oh hold on, let me just tuck my gun under my arm to shake your hand

and introduce myself and tell you about my thesis. And the only place where people are even worse spies than that is when the entire search and rescue operation descends upon Lucy Diamond's lair, finds her in a sheet and doesn't arrest her. Still, they just leave. They just walk away and leave her there. Even Max, who's supposed to be like the secret genius of the Depths, is like unbelievable and just like beats, it just leaves and they leave, and they don't even drive any home. They leave her

a walk that they're not very good spies. I'm just gonna throw that out there. The last thing I had to say about des was I I went back and I watched the short film it was based on. Yes it is, I mean it is. So it won a ton of awards. Uh the year it came out. It came out in two thousand three, so it seems like this short film did really well and it was immediately put into production to become a movie with the same budget, with with the same budget, except most of the budget

went to paying Holland Taylor. But the short film exactly high end puka shells. If you're listening and you haven't seen the short film, highly recommended. It is even it moves even faster. It's like raunchier. And if I'm not mistaken, I think that the short film does have an all queer cast, while the theatrical movie does not, or at least a majority queer cast, which I don't know. I mean,

I think that. Yeah, I'm not the most qualified person to make this comment, but it does seem like very often queer films when they're adapted for a larger audience, are dare I say, sanitized a little bit, and straight actors are cast in queer roles. I'm fairly certain, I think if my research didn't fail me, Amy and Lucy are played by straight actresses, and in the original short film that was not the case. Wait, is Claire Kramer queer?

Am I like just learning this now? In the Amy and in the in the in the short film, the original short film, Oh no, you're right. I think it's the four debts that are that are queer. There's a majority. Why would you taught us like that. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. My whole world is opening up there no also Kramer of lerificous fame from both I got really excited that she was I'm so sorry now she she appears to be the only straight women in the movie.

Or fine, I'm just going to cry myself to sleep tonight. It's no problem. I've fully ruined everyone's life. The one the one carry over from the Short Films cast is Jill Ritchie who plays Janet, who fun fact, is Kid rocks sister. So just a wild amazing thing. There is anything. Debs is one degree of separation from Kid Rock, who knew something we all needed to know. Yes, Lee and Ellie, do you have any other final thoughts about the film Debs?

I do have one final thought, which is just I think while we it's so fun to wrag on Debs, and I love writing on Debs because I love it so much, um, I do think it's important to also mention that while we make fun of their their low budget and the effects and everything, that it is interesting to see the transition from Deb's to what Angela Robinson can do with a budget, which is Professor Marston and it's such a far cry between those two movies that

I just think it's at least worth pointing out. You know that Angela Robinson is still a beautiful human being forgiving us Stebs and Professor Mark Pressor Marston. And it goes to show when you have a queer woman writing and directing a movie about a queer love story, it's handled. This is not to say this movie is not without its problems, but it is handled much better than when these stories are attempted by non queer people. And usually

those stories aren't even attempted by non queer people. But it helps when the person who is creating this story and this content is someone who has experience and knowledge about these topics. And it's hardening to see that someone making their perfect art about the queer spies can go on to have an incredible I mean, she's had an incredible career. Professor Marston is amazing. She didn't she write and direct quite a few uh l word and True

Blood and like she's like making Banks, she's chilling. Is she a woman of color? Yes? Yes, that it surprised me then the way that the women of color are treated in Debs then, but I would guess maybe it was producers could be. Yeah, I also feel like I think it stands out more with Max. I don't know that Max is that much less consistent of a character

than everyone else in this movie. I mean, I think it's just everybody who is not Amy and Lucy kind of gets short shrift in this for true Um and Lucy. Jordana Brewster is part Brazilian. I don't know exactly how she identifies in terms of her ethnic identity, but she perhaps identifies as at least mixed. Not totally clear on that, but you know there's a text her, whose text her? And let us know what you find out. So does this movie past the BACKDL test? Yeah, big fat yes

on that. You know. An easy way to pass the backdel test is have two women and instead of having them talk about a guy, I have them talked about how much they want to owe each other sure fire away Um. And in one of the very few scenes that I found where they do talk about men, they are talking about Bobby and Amy's like, I broke up with Bobby and someone says why and She's like he was just so boring, and then someone else says, yeah, he's an ass so when men are being talked about,

it's usually in an insulting way, which is great. Um, I think. Also a super producer, Sophie pointed out that this movie would not pass the reverse spectal test and that there are not two men I don't think even talking to each other in the whole movie, but there might if there is. I do think that's that doesn't sound Yeah, it doesn't. I don't think. There's that scene where Scuts playing bingo with some guys but nobody responds to him. Yeah, and they certainly don't have names. Yeah,

we don't know who any of those guys are. The name of my new band is Scuds playing Bengo. Um. And this is a rare case of a movie passing the Vito Rusto test, and a few listeners are not familiar with what that is. Um. The Vito Russo test requires that a film must contain at least one character who is identifiably lgbt Q, plus that character must not solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or

gender identity. In other words, they should be made up of the same sort of unique character traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another treated like people. But yeah, so strange. Um and the l G B t Q character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal from the story would have a significant impact. So this movie without question passes the Veto Russo test as well as the

Bechtel test. So, in fact, I would say, in terms of the Bechtel test, this is a sort of like an estimated guest but I would say around seventy in the movie is characters passing the Bechdel test. It's like constant, constant conversations with named women who are not talking about men. So, and just imagine if they had cut Bobby's character, it could have been like, I mean, right, I think we need more Bobby Eraser. Yes, except when it's King of the Hill, and in that case, more more Bobby. Okay,

that's an interesting take. Um, we can have a Bobby de So let's rate the movie on our Nipple scale rating of zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. Um, I this is hard, this is a this is I'm gonna give it. I think four nipples because there are brief problematic moments here and there, and the movie does, as we discussed, subscribe to some of

the stereotypes that we see of queer women. But the fact that the main cast is almost entirely women, and and and a pretty diverse cast fairly yes, more diverse than your ordinary movie, but certainly but still no diversity in terms of body type, at least among the main

four debts. Yeah, I think that aside from a few problems that the movie has, which I think can be attributed to it being a movie of two thousand four, um, I would say it does fairly well in terms of showing women who have agency and who are propelling the story forward. And it's fun to watch. It's a it's a funny movie. It is silly as fuck, but like, there's so little movie without the women, and without any of the women is based on a swing with some

bracelets screaming at the top of his lungs. Right, the movie doesn't exist without the like six main female characters that are needed for this story. So good playing Bingo. I would watch that short film. Yes, um, so it's great. And the fact that it's, as we discussed, one of only a very small number of like fun queer women comedy movies in existence. Um, I think that's great. So yeah, I'm gonna go with four nipples, and I'll give one to each of the four debts. I'm gonna go three

and a half. And the reason we didn't touch on this very much, but something that always kind of bugs me in in movies is when friendships are disrupted by a relationship, and a new relationship suddenly destroys your friendship structure entirely and send your entire life into chaos. And I was trying to like go through that entirely. And I do think that in some ways, like Amy's relationship totally shakes the foundation of like her relationship with all

of her female friends. And that was the thing that I didn't I don't know, even though like her character ultimately grows and I think finds the best of both schools of thought and whatever moves forward, that was like one thing that I was, like, I didn't love that. I don't know, I mean, and I guess movies need conflict, and if you have a majority female cast, there's gonna be a lot of conflict and in fighting between women.

But just the whole new relationship completely destroying friendship group for the most part, wasn't my favorite thing, but it's also basically a queer d com, which is incredible. I don't know. I mean, it's like, it's such a fun movie. I haven't enjoyed watching a movie twice back to back in a very long time. And it's great. I mean, for all the fun ragging on the low production values, it's a good movie and it's funny. The story is tight for the most Yeah, I mean it's a it's

less than an hour and a half long. What more could you ask for? And so I thought, I mean, if that was the last, uh so I'll give it three and a half or three and three quarters, I don't know. Somewhere somewhere it's a scientific there's a Wikipedia page. Did you see that? Where people are leaving? So now I feel more conscientious of my nipple ratings and I'm like losing sleep over it. There's a Wikipedia page for for us and then they write down it's really stressful

actually about the page. I didn't know that they were like documenting all of our nipple games, updated rather frequently. Okay, so for whoever is making the Wikipedia page, I say three point seven five and I answer yes, final answer, I'm gonna give also, if you are making the Wikipedia page, let us know that it's used so that we can credit you if you want. So, I guess I'm gonna give one to each of the debs, except I'm giving

slightly less of one to Janet. Okay, sorry in it, but you are a kid rock sister, so life's Hardlee. Do you want to go next with your Yeah? I do, And I'm so torn as well because I feel like, if I vote with my heart and my nostalgic love for this movie, I want to give it four nipples.

I do also feel like I think it comes in slightly lower than that, and I think my problems do have to do somewhat with the fact that I think Ellie and I both have our issues with the whole predatory lesbian trope, and I also do have an issue with the fact that I feel like they really toy in this with um the age that they're supposed to appear, and so when you combine the predatory lesbian trope, but the fact that they're very much casting them as like

high school girls, even though they try to make it clear that they're not, but it sort of keeps presenting them that way. Like I that I have a hard time with. So yeah, I mean maybe maybe somewhere around you know three and a half? Can we do we get to assign them as well? Yes, this is so exciting. I wasn't I didn't prepare well enough to this. Okay, if I have just signed three and a half Nipples, I'm going to assign one to Scud for his excellent

motivational quotes. I'm going to give one to Max because I just I think Max should get something more in this movie. I'm going to give one to h Angela Robinson for you know, just the gift of this and other things that she has given queer women. And I'm going to save my last half of Nipple and I'm going to gift it to Australia because like, what did Australia do to you? Australia gets sank or their attitude all right, Well, I think I have to agree with

Lee that it's around three and a half. Mine is because of some of the homophobic comments that just like, even if you're saying them in sad higher, I think they create a problematic message of friends not being supportive of their friends in lesbian relationships. And I think also the relationship between Lucy and Amy were of course, I love seeing them together, but when you actually take their relationship and put it on paper, it's very stockery, so

I really don't like that. That being said, I am going to give a nipple to Lucy Diamond because nobody has given her a nipple, and just what a hero she needs one? All right, um, I'm also going to give a nipple to Max of course, and Miss Petrie because I love the time, and then half we'll have to go to Dominique because I feel like she's the underdog of this. She has a lot of agency and she's very sex positive to me, so Amy calls her

a sex addict. So love it. Well. I think you to both of you so much for being here with us. This has been such a fun episode in such a fun movie to discuss. You like having us. Thank you. Where can people find you and follow you online? Is there anything that you would like to plug in terms

of social media? You can find us at les Hangout Pod on all the social media's Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and we also have a YouTube channel YouTube dot com slash Let's Hangout Pod and we post songs on there. We actually write original songs based on lesbian movies. You can see some of those on our YouTube channel. Yes, um, you can also follow us individually. Are our social media things. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram at ls H Foster and I'm at Ellie Bridgeta and we do want to plug.

We have our very first live show coming up on February eighth at the Bellhouse in Brooklyn. UM, so we will be doing some fun things there about movie that should have been gay even if they weren't. Oh that sounds awesome. Yeah, take a trip to New York. Probably going to do one in l A at some point, so hopefully catch you there. Yeah, let us know. Well, thank you again so much for being here. You can follow us The Bechtel Cast on social media platforms at

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whatever it flows through. But I just gave my dad a beckdel Cast mug because my dad is a dad and therefore he likes mugs, Dad's love mugs. And I sent it to him and he sent me back a text of his mug full of pens and the caption was my pens. So beckdel Cast mugs are great for pens, mug love mugs, my dad's dating profile, uh and rate and review us on iTunes and all that fun stuff and otherwise, We'll see you next week. By