Contact with Kelly McCormack

while ago. We recorded it, I think a few months ago now, and because this is an episode about space, we referenced the potential of a billionaire space race and how ridiculous that is in the episode. But when we recorded it, it wasn't quite as full blown a thing as it is now. So if it sounds a little off, that is the reason why. But while we've got you here, uh future Jamie and future Caitlin. Uh yeah, we just wanted to sort of bring everybody, I guess up to speed.

You probably know. Unfortunately, because billionaire, I was sure, do you get a lot of press? Oh? I thought we were going to be talking about space, jam a new legacy? Is that not the space that you saw it? But do you did you? Is it like as completely bizarre as it looks? Because it looks so bizarre Why is a mystery machine in it? Why are the people from

a clockwork orange in it? Right? Yeah, because the movie is more concerned about reminding you that other Warner Brothers intellectual properties exist than it is about telling a story that makes any sense. The plot like is borderline incomprehensible. The movie is just like one frame of sensory overload after another. It's unwatchable. Is it good bad or is it just like No, it's just a bummer. I want to I'll still watch it because I have HBO Max,

but like, it just looks bad bad. Oh god, so depressing it Whenever whenever a movie is like we're just um here for I P, it's like, well, Jesus, not not worth it. It was very disappointed. Was hoping for a fun you know, because the first Space Jam is fun, a classic. This one is not. Yeah. I I think the only more depressing space topic than the fact that Space Jam two sucks is that the fact that there's a three way billionaire white guy's space race going on

right now. It's the most just dystopian thing in the world. It's between three of the biggest losers on the planet that like it shouldn't be illegal to kill them in Minecraft of course. Um, and those losers are Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Richard Branson. So yeah, that is now officially a thing. Richard Branson has already been to space. It goes without saying that, you know it. We talked about this in the episode a little bit as well. But the fact that, you know, exploring space is not

the problem here. I understand human curiosity. It makes sense that people want to floor space. It's the fact that these motherfucker's are going to space for PR instead of curing world hunger, which they literally could do. And so it is just like disgusting and embarrassing in every potential way. I wanted to just read a quick quote, uh that came out in July from a piece that I really liked that I felt like broke this down pretty well in uh, oh my god, Jacobin magazine. I've never tried

to say that out loud. The writer is Luke Savage, and he says this quote more straightforwardly. Extreme wealth in the capitalist age is by definition engaged in a constant and desperate scramble for new sources of ethical legitimacy. Billionaires need a public facing reason to exist, and for the time being at least, owning the rights to bits of

paper and expropriating surplus value still doesn't quite cut the mustard. If, on the other hand, plutocratic pursuits and the impossibly decadent lifestyle surrounding them can be packaged as extensions of a

progressive human project, so much the better. The likes of private islands, luxury estates, and Silicon Valley sweatshops are now justifying themselves with all the pomp and sober purpose of Neil Armstrong taking his first step onto the surface of the moon unquote and um, you know five dollar words aside. I feel like that that kind of like puts together.

You know. The issue isn't a curiosity in space. It's repackaging billionaires going to space for attention and also for again personal profit in the effort to literally colonize space. That is the problem. Uh so bad time pr wise for space. But bravely we're doing a contact episode anyways. Yeah, Jodie Foster going to space. Fine, Jeff Bezo is going

to space. No thinks that's my Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a little accident to be wild, if this episode came up, and then it was like, it's just I feel too powerful at this point because I did call j Lo and ben Affleck getting back together, so I have to be careful. So what I'm saying is what if the spaceship blew up? So the interesting look. Okay, enjoy the episode. The cast. Hey Jamie, Hey Caitlin. No, it's not Caitlin, it's it's your father. But it's actually

also not your father. It's it's an I'm an alien. Oh my god, this is so confusing. I hope we're on an island that looks like a screen saver. Yes we are, but actually that's what it looks like to you. But actually we're we're in we're on a star. We're near a star. We're on a planet. We're in the sky, on a planet near the star Vega. Oh okay, that tracks for me. Oh and have you just you just haven't?

Why haven't you reached out before? Now? I like how he's just like, that's just kind of how it works here. You're like, sir, excuse me, I texted you twenty six years ago and you're just now responding. Rude. That would have been that would have that explanation in that scene would have made way more sense to me. Have like time works so differently. I just got here, it feels like. But instead he pulls like kind of you know, a classically male thing to do would just be like I

don't know, I just I don't know. It seemed like you're fun. See it was a what's a big deal? This is a factel cast? Uh have j B loft I. My name is Caitlin Darante and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite or least favorite movies with an intersectional feminist lens. And today we're taking a little a little pod all the way to space, a little pod cast. This is our little Yeah, this is when. That's how the way that Jodie Foster feels when she gets into the pod, how I feel when

we press record. I'm what did she say? She's like, I'm good to go, I'm okay to go, I'm okay to there. That's what Caitlyn and I are doing for like ten minutes before every eppisode starts, and we're getting more and more afraid, and then there's people in another room that are like, that's what. That's what Aristotle was like before before we you know, it's a whole thing, and then we record for eighteen hours, but it just an audio never saves. Yeah, it's just static too soon. Listen, listen.

Things happen listeners, and and sometimes audio corrupt. Said, you live and you'll learn. But this is our that that's not going to happen today. That is not going to happen today. Today we're talking about contact and we have an incredible guest with us here. We certainly do. Kelly is a filmmaker, actor, writer and producer and actor on the film Sugar Dad The It's Kelly McCormick. Welcome Wormle all Ready to go high Go? What was it okay to go? Okay? To go? Okay? To go okay? To go?

Quite literally, how I feel entering a zoom chat At all times I'm like, am I ready to go? Am I not ready to go? It's horrific. Like when you're in the waiting room you have to like confirm your video, You're like, oh, I guess that is how I look

okay to go? Yeah, Like the series of questions it asks you where you're expecting for your video to pop up and it become your new reality, and it just says weight we want to know if your audio is working, and you're like, it's I'm okay to go, and you're like, what we need to know if your video is working? I am okay to go, like I need to go. It's truly words to live by. Honestly. Yeah, um, you know what, Jamie, we forgot to describe what the Bechtel test is. Oh my gosh, we were not okay to go.

It turns out we after all that to do, we were not okay to go. Well, we can tell them now. It's unfortunately, this isn't rocket science, and it's okay if we suck up just a little bit. Yes. The Bechtel Test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Whilst Test. I'd like how we have like it's just like I don't even have to think about it when I describe it. It's just like

it's true anyway. It's a media metric that requires, for our purposes our rendition of the test, two people of a marginalized gender have names, have to speak to each other about something other than a man for a two line exchange of dialogue or like for us, it's a meaningful conversation that might impact the narrative in some way. Right, So, you know, not every movie is going to pass. I guess we'll just see. We'll have to set does I

actually did. I as time goes on, As we talked about all the time, I always like, we're always forgetting to pay attention to whether it pass because it's you know, it's like not the most important thing we discussed by a mile. But I did pay I don't I was. I was on my toes for this one the same. Yeah. I think probably. I think it probably is when there's only like two female characters, you pay closer attention because you're like, oh, I just I just wonder right right? Yes, So, yes,

today's movie is Contact Kelly. What's your what's your relationship with this movie? What's your history with this I have a really emotional history with this, which I was reliving last night when I rewatched the film for the first time, not on VHS, which was the last film. Yeah, I it's actually sort of special. And the more I thought about it, you know, watching the film and musing over it,

I was like, I guess that is a pretty special connection. Um. I grew up with a very large family of many many, many cousins, and we went up to this wilderness sort of space with no electricity and no hot running water every summer, and we were super nerds, like absolute super nerds. We played dungeons and dragons, We played magic cards, we played Fifth Age. I read pretty much exclusively science fiction

and fantasy from age like ten to now. That was all I sort of like, no, I guess I've read other things now, but but that was are like the lifeblood of our family dynamic. That's what we talked about the most. And I had eleven older cousins that were all male. That was the first female born like cousin of the group of people of the of the major super family. And one of my older cousins, Kevin, was our smartest, most um shrewd minded, sci Fi obsessed cousin.

And and for people who have cousins, like naming cousins as these like icons, I feel like we'll feel familiar, you know, like these archetypes, like everyone everyone has a sci fi cousin, everyone has and he he was the one who ran all of our fifth Age campaigns and are which is sort of a hybrid of or not a hybrid and extension of Dungeons and Dragons that plays with the Dragon Lines books. And he was the one who would be like the game master of all of

our magic card games. And he was the guy who we all sort of looked up to for the sci fi fantasy um like advice, and he was the one who was like the last word on all of it. And he started reading Carl Sagan's book Contact, and um, I remember him. I was quite young. I was like twelve, and I remember him reading this copy that had been up on the island in a stack of books that

has probably seventy five years old. And he's reading it and he's talking about it, and he's talking about transcendental numbers and how much math there is in it, and talking about pie and and and I was really into math, and I was really into science and stuff, and obviously science fiction. And I kind of got this feeling that if I could understand Contact, if I could read Contact and understand it, then maybe Kevin would like talk. You know, I was so young, but I just I looked up

to him so much. Well, maybe he'll maybe he'll talk to me. And I'll and I'll be like one of the one of the smarter cousins. So he had this copy that he read in the corner of the cabin and then when he went to bed, or when he put it down, I would secretly pick it up and try and like understand because the yeah, the Carl Sagan book is it's much more. It's it's technically hard science fiction.

It's sort of classified in that, um, really logic based, math based, sort of Isaac asimof school of science fiction rather than like the philosophical what is philosophical but the other end of the spectrum, which would be like Orwellian sci fi, which is a little more digestible sociology. Um. So I read the book, or I know I tried to understand it. I think I did, and then I

begged my mom to rent it from Blockbuster. I think I think it was a Blockbuster rent and I think we just paid that late fee so many times because I think I lost it or stole it away because I watched it so many times. Um, and uh, I haven't seen it since since before last night, and last night I watched it and there was so many things I forgot. I guess conflated from the book, mainly Matthew McConaughey.

I completely wrote out, my little feminist brain wrote out Matthew McConney in the nineties and early two straight out of that movie. Honestly, were you wrong? I was not. I it's very interesting to sort of now I can kind of parse how it diverges from the book and he is certainly. I mean, we'll get into it, but I mean, let's get into it. Yeah, I'm I'm so curious to hear about because I didn't do too much research on the book, but the Matthew McConaughey character and

storyline just waked the studio notes to me. I'm very curious of how much of that is is the case? Yeah, well, I did read the book when I was somewhere between twelve and fifteen, but from my memory, um, there was so First of all, let's just I just want to say Jodie Foster, like I just want to say first name, Jody,

last nime Foster. Let's just start with that, because I mean, now I can look back on the book and I just see her face and that's imbuing the text with such marvel that I'm really excited to sort of revisit that book. But as I remember it, there are a

couple of weird alterations from the book. Number one, her mother is not dead, And uh, I am Canadian, so I will say I've had a couple of conversations with Canadian filmmakers and American filmmakers about how fascinating it is that American studio movies kill off mothers and Canadian movies kill off fathers. It's like a very interesting I guess if you look at Disney movies, is like the most

obvious priganic, sort of big marquee version of that. But there always seems to be this dead mother, absent mother. She dies in the first ten minutes, um, and the mother in this film is sort of no different. But in the book she is this constant character um kind of pushing dr Ellie. As I believe it again, thirteen year old brain told your old brain, pushing dr Ellie to make a choice between the personal and the professional

at all times. And she has this Yeah, she has this father that she idolizes, but then he dies and then her stepdad is not as good and then the whole story you know, kind of follows and then there is this kind of religious element to it where she meets a theologian and he has opinions about what the mission is, but he's not a love interest. I don't think think she has a lot. I think she has a love interest with another astronaut I believe, or another scientist.

But and then five people go to the mission. It's not just her um as I remember it. And and also the more maddening and we'll get into it again, but the more maddening aspects of the film I find is that this whole like you, where's your proof, where's your proof? Like you didn't you crazy woman? Like you know that you know in quotation marks that you know, you're you're you're just a delusional and you're hysterical and you don't know. And this has just been one big delusion.

And then at the end, you know, you see, I guess we're allowed to do spoilers here, and people have seen content. I'm about to spoil the whole dang thing. But there's this incredible through line in the book which I remembered and thought was in the movie up until last night, which is that when she's young, and again I'm butchering this So for all the scientists and mathematicians and hard science fiction fans like, please please don't like

admonish me to Kelly alone. I am a fairly intense nerd and science fiction fan, so I feel like I can pull my weight. But she, when she's young, she has this idea that Pie, you know, the three point one nine number that goes into eternity that you sort of skip over in math class like when you're young, that it's not that it's not transcendental or it is transcendental, which means it's not algebraic. And then something a bunch of stuff happens. This is something she thinks of when

she's a kid. When she's young, she's like, I think this about Pie. I think this about this transcendental number. And then at the end of the book she figures out that the transcendental number in fact is a massive circle, and somehow that circle is the proof that she actually did go and that is the made So she finds proof that she went wow yeah, which was much more cathartic than how we ended contact the Hollywood film. But well, Matthew McConaughey believes her, So I guess that's good enough.

That moment at the end where like, for some reason, all she comes out of the courthouse or the Senate hearing or whatever, and all of these reporters aren't asking her questions, and then suddenly Matthew McConaughey's character is more famous than her in that moment. Absolutely not. It's so bizarre. She's all like huddled under a blanket, like, oh no, I'm I'm so weak. I just had an existential crisis and then we just yelled at me. And then everyone's like,

you man, who's right there? What do you believe? And it's just like who gives a ship what Matthew McConaughey believed, And he also like yells over a car. He's like, I don't know, I think I believe for and he's wearing a huge scarf for you're just like, what is going on? He has a scarf the size of his head, like a wild he is. You know, I don't like talking shit about other actors because I just feel like it's I mean, I'm an actor, so it's it's hard.

But I think I'm going to talk about mac McConaughey for a second because I accidentally watched two back to back Matt mcgonaughy films because my unsurprisingly, my next film is a sci fi feature. So I was sort of looking at I wanted to know. I had some questions. So I watched, Um, what the hell is it called? The Christopher Nolan film Andrew Stellar. Yeah. I had never seen it, and I just don't think that. I mean,

Jodie Foster quite literally wipes the floor with him. It's it's every scene that she's in and it cuts to him, and he's supposed to emotionally meet her at a place he just falls short. And I don't know the whole god subplot and the faith and the fact that he outs her at the Senate when she's trying to when she's trying to speak for her. Yeah, and then he's like,

guess what I did? Think it was important that you had faith, so you represented all of humanity which people believe in God, which is I don't know if that's like Hollywood science but it or Hollywood statistics. I don't know where that comes from. But and then and then he's like, oh, actually I did it because I love you and I don't want you to believe. And I'm like, okay, so this is the smartest woman. She's quite literally discovered

life on other planets. Like, let's just hold on. Jodie Foster has just discovered life on other planets, and she has the opportunity to go communicate with that life, go communicate in this absolutely pure place of of courage and adventure and cure you a city and lust for science and all the right reasons. And is there anything you can say against Jodie Foster in this film? There is nothing. And then he's like, but I love you, so I want to just keep you the possession of it here,

just like, who are you again? That? So his character is so annoying and just cutting serious. I'm furious. Yeah, well we'll talk all about this and his hair every Also, I've never seen I've never seen less chemistry between two people. They're kids in front of the Watchington d C. Thing, I forget what they're called. They kissed in front of the Washington d C. Water puddle and it's so you're just like, what is Can we get Jodie Foster out of here, get her in the pod, get her away

from away from Matthew McConaughey. That is everything I thought. Get Jody like time to go or I'm good to go. Okay, yeah, Jenny kissing McConaughey, I'm okay to go. Yeah, I'm okay to go. I'm writing that on my pad of paper beside the computer so that if I need to reference okay to go later in this podcast, I will be able to quickly. Everybody, you will be okay to go.

It is. It is shocking how little chemistry they have, and then there's all these weird, sustained moments where they're staring at each other for quite longer than would be human, and the kisses that you you sort of notice it they kind of pan to the left and let them kind of they rack focus really quickly, so you're like, we don't need to see this, And yeah, every time they embrace, it's just like, let's get Jodie Foster's head on his shoulders to the camera. Can just look at

her because she's so magnificent. Yeah, it was. The chemistry was bad, and also he's just he's so problematic. That whole character is problematic, and the whole question of you know, what if Theologian's spaces in the sci fi world and challenging her and all of it I mean again, and this I can't speak from experience because I, as I mentioned, m Canadian and not American. But there was this this site, this hyper sense of American like god fearing we are

the ones we speak for this planet moment. And you get that from so much science fiction. I mean, besides the remarkable Angela Bassett in this film, this film is hell white and hell American and the the I I think Jodie Foster has a line that's so brilliant where she says, where the where the aliens talk in prime numbers and she says something like what America now owns

prime numbers? Like no, it's international, math is international. And that was so great and a kind of uncharacteristic criticism of I guess the American base military god complex thing I'm gonna I'm gonna get in trouble do not? Okay? Good? Okay? So Jamie, what's your relationship in history with this movie? Um? I had never seen this movie, I think because I was I don't know when I would have seen it. I think when it came out it definitely would have

been too long to hold my attention. But it's a two and a half hour movie, correct, it is still quite long. But I I grew up very my My grandfather was and is like a huge Carl Sagan head, and I like, growing up, I watched Cosmos with him. We had it like the via just tapes, and I yeah, so so I'm a fan of the Carl Sagan Expanded Universe. But I never actually seen this movie and I I was, I honestly like enjoyed it and was more touched by

it than I was expecting to be. It kind of took me off guard because I was like, two and a half hour movie from I just don't know. That's a gamble, but I thought it was. I mean, there's plenty to talk about, um, But in general, I was like very captivated. Jodie Foster is like always incredible, but she like especially blew me away, and then I'm like, wow, not again. I have a very short attention span. Not many actors can hold my attention for two and a

half hours, and she's just incredible. And I also am excited to talk about the production history of this movie because it's very interesting. Um, what's your history with contact? This was a movie that my family had on VHS one or two. I think it was only one of them, Brave, but it is long enough that I don't know. Now

I'm not remembering. I'm not remembering because I only watched this once, so like it was a movie that like my family had, I guess, like maybe my brother watched it and my mom, but for some reason, I I don't know. This was also the year that Titanic came out, so as with many movies, from what to say, I mean, this was it. This was a year I didn't have eyes for anything but Titanic. So to VHS sets, it was definitely Titanic, obviously, but then also I think Meet

Joe Black. That's the only other movie that I've never seen. I don't think anyone in my family ever watched it. I don't know if it was a gift or what. But Meet Joe Black to VHS. Interesting. Yeah, I truly don't remember if contact was a one or two VHS tape scenario, but I don't remember having it, but I was I was too busy watching Titanic all the time

to pay much attention to Contact. Although I think probably when I was like maybe thirteen or fourteen, I watched it, and there are two very distinct moments from the movie that We're like seared into my brain, and then I remembered nothing else. I remembered her dad like materialized, like the alien materializing as her dad and talking to her.

I remember that, and then I remembered the kind of twist at the end where I didn't remember that it was Angela Bassett, but like the reveal that like eighteen hours of static was recorded, she did go on the trip to Vega. That is a very satisfying moment. I mean, Angela Bassett carries it, but it was I was like, oh, because I was so I mean, the proceeding scene was so frustrating to watch. But I'm also like, Angela, did you contact Jodie Foster and tell her like and confirm this?

Because we never I don't know if if if Ellie knows that, like you know, it's so funny. Those are the exact two moments that I remember the most as well, like absolutely the dad on the beach and then that last moment. But did you tell you there was exactly eighteen hours of static? And I had the same reaction. I remember finding my mom and being like, did they

tell her? What do you think? Do you think she found out James Woods's reaction is so bizarre too, where he's like, oh that is interesting, and you're like, so what happened? But it's like, you know, his character is not going to be the one to admit that they're wrong. But I was like, I hope Angela Bassett stepped up. We'll never know, and that could have been a scene that passed the Bechdel tests, where you know, if Angela Bassett calls Jodie Foster, she's like, hey, I got some

good news for you. You were gone for eighteen hours and we have the proof, you know exactly. Instead, instead, all they talked about is finding a dress for some sort of to impress Matthew McConaughey. Yeah. But the that Jame Woods is reaction, his whole thing, his whole screaming at her at that, him getting up. I mean again, I don't like talking about actors, but I'm going to talk to it about James Woods. It's like, it's extremely fair game hundreds at for a game. He is not

our target, target audience or an allies. So I'm gonna say we're gonna talk to it about him, and he's he's an unrepentant Republican. He's he's a big and it's so he's awful. He's awful, He's awful, and uh, he just trying to him, trying to what's the word. There's a word for it, eat the umu. There's an acting word for sham, acting like chew the scenery. In that last scene, he's screaming at her, he's standing up, he's

yelling at her. He's trying to James Woods the ship out of it, and Jodie Foster is just Jodie fostering so hard. She's just sitting there, tears in her eyes, standing in her strength and her purity and this like feeling of of wonder that she's trying to convey in this sort of the space between what is real and what is not real? What is science, what is faith? What is Oh It's just like I remember that scene.

I remember her choking back tears and having a hard time finding the words, and all I wish is she hit then said and then I figured out that pie is not in fact transcendental, and she did the circle and all this stuff it's in the book. But yeah, that moment with James Woods where he's badgering her it's not even and you're like, how did you get so much screen time this damn movie? Like you're who are you? Yeah? Why? Like get rid of James Wood's bringing more Angela Bassett?

Like anyway, um, let me do the recap of the movie and then we'll get even further into the discussion. Actually, let's take a quick break first and then we'll come

back to recap and we're back. Okay, So okay, you know the very end of Men in Black, where like the camera keeps like pulling out from New York City and then like the US and then Planet Earth and then the Solar System, and then it turns out that the galaxy is one of several tiny little marbles that aliens are playing with, and then you realize how small and insignificant you are. The way Men in Black ends is exactly how Contact opens. So that's my first brilliant observation.

My point of reference. There was the end of How the Grinch Still Christmas, when you find out the whole movie took place on a snowflake. Jim Carrey lives on a snowflake. Amazing. Then we meet Ellie, a young girl who is sending out radio transmissions and trying to see how far she can reach. She lives with her dad, baby Jenna Malone. Oh my gosh, I love Genna Malone. That is who that is, isn't it? That did not even register for me. Yeah. Then we cut to Ellie,

who has grown up to be Jodie Foster. She is now an astronomer trying to make contact with intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. She's working on this project called Steady, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, with a few colleagues, most notably Kent. And then one day she meets Palmer Joss That is Matthew McConaughey. First of all, what name? What I name? I think that is a name from the book though I'm going to say that now, Joss. I feel like I read and I was like, yeah, that's

a book name. It's very much a book name. It's a book name. I have the book synopsis in front of me because I was so, I'm so interested in like the differences you're responding, Kelly. So I'll try to try to follow along ecually where things really go awry. So Palmer Joss is a theologian. He's trying to interview Ellie's boss, this guy Drumlin played by Tom Skarrett, who

is an asshole. Then Ellie and Palmer they look at the stars together, they kiss, they have sex, and then we learn via their pillow talk, as well as some flashbacks that Ellie's dad died when she was nine years old. And then one of the most the mellow drama of that sequence slow Motion Baby. General, it was a lot very very nineties where it's like, oh, the slow motion trauma scene, I know this film convention, yeah, or the just general nineties convention of kids parents dying and kids

having to deal with that. That's a big nineties early two thousand, like, let's see, this kid's gonna have this kid's going to be an orphan, right, full on orphan. Yeah, And yet we're not going to address how she survives, who raises, how she has money. I mean, maybe she's just a very perculous, privileged white girl. And then there's sort of like it has like glean of nineties movies where they're like, she's white, so we don't have to

explain her cultural background. The middle class sort of kind of exists. It's just a general glean of she's fine, she's like gonna be fine. She she was both of her parents dide she has a huge house. I don't know that was like especially glaring to me where I don't know what this character's name is. He shows up in a little bit Mr. Mr Plot billionaire or like

whoa yeah the plot man. Plot Man summarizes her life to us for some reason, but also skips over like how she who she lived with, what she did, how she survived between like age ten in college, Mr Plot, I swear to god, some aunt is just like eye rolling and like just just sitting there and being like I flip and raised you. You're not even gonna mention me nice family member? Erasure not nice? Right? Or did she grow up in the foster system, the Jody Foster system.

She would have had to there's no way run it she, I will say. As much as I despise this Palmer Joss love thing that pops up like once every half hour or so in this movie, I did appreciate that Ellie initiated their contact. Shall we? I feel like you don't you don't get a lot of that. You don't get a lot of initiation from a female character where she's just like, do you want to get out of here. I was like, all right, Jody, good for you. Yeah, okay, go let's do it. And then she has sex with

him and leaves him high and drawing. He's like, what that's another thing, you know, Like she she it's on her terms. The first time, it's on her terms. The second time he literally tries to possess her and stop her from living out her dreams. But the first time it's great. It's great. She's like, I just want to have sex with you. It's not moralized. They're not like, you know, it's it's actually sort of breathtaking lee un

moralized that she's just doing this. And then she sees his number and she's like, you know what, I'm going to leave this number here. I don't need to I don't need to keep this in my pocket and hope for something else. I'm just gonna And you know that was those were good times before the internet and for social media, where you could just forget the person's paper that wrote their number on it, and then they can

just disappear them from your life. Like how easy she leaves it for the next person who's staying in that little shack. I also think there's um a moment where speaking of how white this film is. But when we meet Matthew Mohonna as Palmer Joss. When we meet him, he makes some sort of comment about why they're in I think they're in Puerto Rico. I think that's where they are, and he's like, well, what is science mean

to these people like you? Scientists come in here and you take up this space in these in these cultures, in these communities, that that the science and space exploration doesn't serve in some sort of way, And he sort of sets up this very important conversation and that it's just all God from there. It's just all you know, ontological questions about theology from there. But it's completely, just

completely dropped, And I didn't. I forgot that moment. I forgot about that whole sequence, and it's never They never get back to it, and I wonder if I can't. I want to reread the book and find out whether or not they deal with that of the question of who is science? Who is space exploration for? And Jodie Foster of course answers that question because she's marvelous, But who is it for? You know, it's it's for anyone who feels alone. That's kind of the the thesis maybe

of her alien dad and her I don't know. I mean I also thought that he was the Palmer Jaws kind of hate saying that name we all do was was also very like in that same conversation, is very dismissive of the people who live locally, because he's like, Oh, they don't they don't know what the you know, satellite dishes are for. They think it's for their like basically just like making this kind of like a side comment to say like, oh, people around here have no idea

what what you guys are doing. And then and then, like you said, continues into this his whole god tangent and it's like, well, if you're going to set a movie here, set it here, don't you like? I Like, we talked about that all the time, of like using somewhere and and and the people that are native there as set dressing rather than including them meaningfully in the plot,

which is just always always frustrating. Yeah, I mean they did that with I remember in the book when the second machine or maybe maybe there aren't two machines, I don't remember, there's there. It's possible that the whole first machine, and then the evangelical Christian who bombs it. It doesn't

happen in the book. I can't remember, but I do know that the second machine or the first um is built in Japan, and the relationship with the Japanese government and the Japanese scientists and engineers is much more a part of the book. And you'll notice that it's just represented by these two Japanese man stand like leading Jodie Foster into this, into the pot, and they say nothing, and they're just they behave in this sort of you know, subservient.

The portrayed is this kind of subservient group of people, and like they don't even react to the fact that they're standing over this obelisk looking spinning thing. It's just so done as like conversation worthy. I would say, yeah, yeah, if they're not, they're not treating the the as you said, like the places that they're shooting this with, as anything other than just set dressing, which is very nineties early

two thousand's Hollywood, certainly is okay. Then Drumlin pulls his funding from the project because he thinks it's a waste of time. So Ellie and Kent and some other colleagues pick up and head to New Mexico to lease some government satellites there, and Ellie helps them get funding from investors. We then cut to four years later they were about to lose that funding or like Drumlin is going to come back and try to like take over the lease of this something. I think like any time they run

out of funding. Honestly, these scenes kind of blurred for me, where it's like any time they lose funding. Jennie Foster throws on a turtleneck and I was like, all right, who do I need to talk to? And then eventually it happens. Yeah. Yeah, the funding narrative is sort of repetitive. I don't real didn't remember that, but I know Hagen the guy, the rich guy in space is a big part of the book as well, But but it is

sort of creepy that he's like, are in very very strange? Yeah, the Yeah, the funding falls through, she gets the turtle lack all of a sudden, guess what funding back back. But then it seems like contact has been made by aliens from a star that's twenty six light years away called Vega. They transmit prime numbers between two and one

because math is a universal language Da Vinci code. Wow. Um. Then the Vega Aliens send a video transmission of Hitler announcing the opening Olympic Games in Berlin, because that was like the first powerful television transmission to be sent into space from Earth. So the aliens recorded it and sent it back to be like I see you, I hear you, Hello. And then everyone's like, this is not representative of what

we're trying to do here, right right. Then Ellie and friends continue to decode the transmission and they discovered that the Vega Aliens have sent thousands of pages of data, but it's all in like you know, alien code that they don't understand, so they have to decrypt it and they need like a primer, like a key to the code. Meanwhile, James Woods is this. I think he's like the National Security Advisor. Fuck James Woods. Seriously, we don't have time

to unpack all the funk James Woods. But fuck James Woods. Uh. So he's giving Ellie hard time. The press is reporting on contact being made. Uh, there's a conversation like kind of religion versus science that's being had between a lot of people. Um Palmer, Joss is on Larry King talking about his his book about yet another Larry appearance. I

feel like ever, I mean, Larry's everywhere, He's everywhere. This is not still not the best Larry that's done on the best Larry, because that's B movie, Yes, B Larry King. Then dr hadn't a k. John Hurt, the eccentric billionaire, pays Ellie a visit and he has figured out the primer, like a k A, how to decode the data that the aliens sent, and with this they are able to determine that this data is a blueprint for a machine

of some kind. They don't know what it's supposed to do at first, but it becomes clear that it's meant to be a transport to bring a human into space, presumably to make direct contact with the Vega aliens. So then some government officials have made a list of a few candidates who might be the person to go to Vega. One of them is Ellie. One of them is her former boss Drumlin, and he he really really wants to go. Oh,

I want to kick his ass. Oh. And then also there's a rogue Jake Busey just kind of blue hang over and this is Also, Caitlin and I were talking about this, uh last night, how Jake Busey in the nineties, he just he just he wanted to be in a space movie. It didn't matter what was happening in the space movie Starship Troopers Contact. He was using his particular kind of nepotism to be in space movies. I honestly want that particular kind of nepotism so bad, Like if

I could just love that for him. I love that for him, but I want it for me. That's the truth. So then it's time to choose who goes. Ellie has passed over because she's an atheist slash agnostic, which Palmer jaz like docks as her as an atheist in a public forum, and because they think that people on Earth believe in some form of higher power, they want to pick someone who represents most of humanity. So she gets passed over, uh and instead Drumlin gets selected to go.

And then they run a test of the machine that they have built. But this religious extremist a k A. Jake Bausey a K. Gary Busey's son, breach of security, sets off a bomb which destroys the machine and kills Drumlin, among many others. So then it seems like okay, that's it, no one's going to go to Vega until Dr Haddn't shows up again and reveals to Ellie that a second machine was built in secret in Japan and they want

Ellie to go to Vega. This damn plot guy he like, I was just like, maybe he's a character that makes more sense in the book than he did in the movie, but he really just did seem he was like giving me plot which energy and this like where he would just show up, like when when Jodie Foster was like really in a bind, he would be like do do do do from space and be like, by the way, here's the plot point you need, and then and then and then he just dies when he runs out of

plot points. It's really sad, real old wise man patron for a younger woman energy as well, like very very like don't worry, I've seen something in you that no one else has seen. And you're my girl, like you're my you know. He also is like stalking her, and he's also stalking her putting stuff in her bedroom. Does he have home video footage of her as a child, Like I was like that, where did he get that? I mean, we still don't know where she grew up,

So thanks, I guess, but it's true. Definitely nullifies some of Jodie Foster's get up and go agency and her like you know, tearing this down and making this happen. I mean, they're just some wonderful moments where Jody is the only smart person in the room or the person who knows. Like when she notices what's his name as the evangelical she knows that Jake. Yeah, yeah, j thought

he was so sneaky. And what's interesting. I world note with present day context, when the newscaster covers the story of the bombing bombing, they call him a terrorist, they call him I noticed that too. Yeah, you never see I mean, and this is like a problem to this day of like declaring white terrorists to be what they are, yeah,

or white male evangelical terrorists to say Christian terrorists. It was such a a weird, interesting moment of like, oh, yeah, this is interesting how we've mutilated the word terrorism to mean essentially people of color from different countries. You know, it was such an incredibly weird moment. I was like, oh yeah, blast for the past. Yeah, I made don't of that too. Yeah, I hate. I mean it's I hate that we live in a world where that is

like of note, but it absolutely is. I was like, I was okay, okay, okay, okay to go okay, to go okay. It took me as I don't know why, I totally okay. Back to the recount. So then Ellie prepares for the trip. Palmer Joss is like, oh, don't want you to go, and she's like, I'm going, but she also forgives him. He apologizes for robbing her, like

very near robbing her of her dream. But then she's like it's cool because you know the whole Jake beausey thing, Like I feel like that was the subtext of it. She's like, well, you know it all worked out of like that. We need a longer conversation about this. So she is launched into space. She goes through a series of wormholes. She ends up on this like astro beach.

It looks like a screen faver, it looks yeah, her dad seems to materialize in front of her, but it turns out that it's a Vega alien who had downloaded her subconscious and sort of like is this ambassador who has taken on the form of her dad to more effectively communicate with her. They have a little chat about like people of Earth and how they feel so lost and alone, but now they can know that they're not alone. And this is just a first of like many steps

of like contact among different you know, terrestrial beings. And then she is pretty quickly after that returned to Earth. But back on Earth, they're like, Ellie, there was a malfunction. You didn't go anywhere, And she's like, um, yeah, I did. I talked to the aliens obviously, like the machine opened up a wormhole and I traveled through spacetime. I was gone for like eighteen hours. The aliens was my dad, I was. I was on a beach five star resort

that looks like that. It looks like her painting, right she she yeah, yeah, she was like I was. I went to Pensacola, but in the middle of space. And then they're like, um, we don't believe you. There's no evidence of this. Nothing was recorded except for static. But

how much static? Right can we? I just seemed to I feel like I need to pause just to talk about the extation, the expectation that that dinky little thing they put on her head withstand when this fan I just I remember being like they're like, okay, here we go, and they open up this very official suitcase with like foam in it where they're like, okay, we're gonna give you the device and it looks like my Walkman from It looks like something like like the Gwen Stefani mike

like for a stadium Dora. This through a wormhole and they put it on her head with this little silver headband and I'm thinking, like, they don't even put a bobby pin into secure it. Nothing, It's just going to stay on her head during this wormhole esque it makes me and then the expectation that she is responsible for the evidence that she's responsible. He's yelling at her, where's your evidence? You don't have any evidence. I'm like, well that's on you, bro. You sent her with the like

the most cracked little piece of technology. Why is it on her? And her chair like blows up, Oh my god, the chair that wasn't even supposed to be there, because she's like there's nothing in the design specs for this like chair and the harness, and it's like, yeah, we understand why because it's like just implodes. Yeah, She's like, trust the aliens, trust my dad, This's gonna be fine.

But the evidence thing just absolutely that makes no sense because yeah, James Woods is like screaming at her and like being like, you don't have any proof, and she's like, I don't know. But then Palmer Joss is like, well

I believe her. You're like, wow, brave, amazing feminist icon Palmer Joss, and we're just like and then James Woods and angel A Bassett have that conversation where angel A Bassett's like, yes, only static was recorded on this supposed trip to Vega, But James Woods, don't you think it's weird that eighteen hours was recorded? And then he goes, yeah, I guess yes, that gets it's weird. And then the film ends with Ellie continuing her work on searching for

extraterrestrial intelligence. And that's the end of the movie. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back for more discussion. And we're back. We've we've talked about some stuff already, but there are there are some things I want to kind of dig into a little bit. I want to do a quick overview of the production history of this movie because there are some very nineties things that you'll notice, um popping out. So this is a movie that has

a majority white male crew at the top. Directed by Robert Zamakis. Uh screenplay is by James V. Hart and Michael Goldenberg, but the story is by Carl Sagan and Andrew Ien, who were not married I don't think at the time of this story, but they were later um later married. But what I didn't realize about this was that uh, Contact was a book from that was turned

into a movie. But it was originally envisioned as a movie and then someone was like, oh, Carl Sagan, actually maybe if you write a book, it'll be easier for us to to get it produced. Um. So this was in production for a really, really really long time. A female producer was the one who got it over the edge. Linda Obst shout out. She was friends with Carl Sagan and really you know, advocated for this project to exist.

Carl Sagan wrote the story with Andrew In, who is like an incredible filmmaker, scientist, researcher in her own right. And I didn't know. We don't have like, you know, all the time in the world to get into Carl Sagan, but as a very prominent scientist he did um as far as my research indicated, was a strong advocate for diversity in general in the science fields, but he was an advocate for women. They're like this amazing anecdote in the eighties of him approaching it's such a silly name

that I'm like, this can't be a thing. The Explorers Club. Apparently it's a very famous astronomer's group, and it was all male all the way into the nineteen eighties. And he wrote a strongly worded letter to say, why the

funk aren't women allowed in this group? Like, what's going on? Yeah, so Carl feminist icon also Andrew and you know, I'm sure that she she was an advocate as well, obviously, and and uh, this is his only novel, and they you know, he and Andrean took special care to ensure that there was a female protagonist in the novel and also in the movie, which is also, you know, relatively unusual in sci fi to this day. Ellie Earraway was

based on a real person, uh, Dr Jill Tarter. Uh. The Seti Institute is a real thing who knew not me, uh, which she founded right, Yes, she founded Jodie Foster like worked with her. Um, so the very nineties thing that happens here, and this will kind of get us into some of the book versus movie changes that have been made. Was there was a male producer, uh, Peter Goober, which let's just get into it's really going to live up

to his name. He so so after the book was published, apparently the mother gets killed off very early, which is just like such an Erican movie thing to do. On top of that, Peter Goober was pitching all these things

to like quote unquote flesh out Ellie's character more. But um, he was really advocating for her to have an estranged teenage son, which Carl and Anne were like no, no, no, uh but um, Peter Goober says, like quote, here was a woman consumed with the idea that there was something out there worth listening to, but the one thing she

could never make contact with was her own child. To me, that's what the film had to be about, which is like the most male executive note about a female protagonist that I've ever heard, where it's just like, oh, well, if it's a woman, it has to be related to motherhood and deal with your mommy issues elsewhere. Gouber, I'm like, yeah, like can we like just take this your therapist. Um, and yeah. There was just kind of a lot of back and forth in terms of how Ellie should be characterized.

But luckily carl and and I think took every stand they could. I'm very I wasn't able to find information about like at what point did Palmer drop become like a stud full one McConaughey, But yeah, there there there was like a lot of changes made to the story. Some of them that proposed changes were pretty sexist and reductive, and many of them didn't make it to the movie. Some of them did. I also read that it was pitched that Ellie the movie would end with like her

having a baby. Yes, yes, that was another goober pitch that was a goober that's forever now that that was a goober that has goober written all over it. He really gooped that one up. This goober just means like anyone trying to just add goob to anything, any female story, they're trying to goog it up. My one of my favorite things, because we talked about this quite a bit of particularly when it's male writers who are just writing

outside of their own experience. It's like, well, just talk to someone, like, have the proper consultants on on the movies that you're working on at the very very very least, And that does happen in this they so Jill Tarter, Jodie Foster, and I guess that the writers and and Karl and and work with her. And she was a consultant on this story specifically, not just for the scientific elements, but to talk about the careers of women's scientists in

her experience between the fifties and seventies. And I guess a lot of the kind of specific instances of Ellie being spoken over, opportunities being taken from her, her work, kind of being made to seem less impactful than it actually was, was pulled from Jill Tarter's experience. So go Dr Jill. She said. On her first day as like a PhD candidate at UC Berkeley in the mid sixties, she was told by the head of the astronomy department that the only reason that she was there was because quote,

all these smart men got drafted for Vietnam. So yep. Unsurprisingly, she had to put up with a lot of sexism, believe it or not, believe it or not, Shucker, I'm really glad she was like meaningfully included. I mean, as much as I'm like, can't we get from female screenwriters on this, I am very glad that her experiences were like really taken into account on the consulting level. Um. And I feel like that it enriches the movie. Oh absolutely.

And I think you can feel how much. I mean, just knowing the the pedigree that is Jodie Foster, There's no way she wouldn't have absolutely absorbed everything this woman felt and said and and like I think, my I mean when I I don't remember the religious plot, I don't remember Matthew McConaughey, I don't remember all the other stuff. What I remember is being a young girl watching this and being like, holy cow, she loves science. Holy cow,

she becomes this. It was so empowering growing up. Like I remember that moment when she's outside and she's like losing her financing and she's like, screw it, I'm taking the computer box outside and I'm going to listen on my head in my car, and then she hears it and she's driving that car like a bat out of hell and she's you know, she's spitting coordinates and crap.

And there's like a ten minute scene where the audience doesn't understand funk All, like there's just no way unless you're a scientist, you know what the hell they're talking about. But even watching it last night, I was so captivating. It's so captivating. And what I remember how I felt

as a young girl watching this. I remember her being like I hear it, I I know, and her the constant attempt for her to believe, to have the benefit of the doubt in the aliens, for her to be like, no, they wouldn't have done this if they didn't say they needed a chair there. This isn't a weapon, like why would they, you know? And just and that a spirit

and energy. And it's interesting because I had read that Andrew and Carl Sagan had written this, as you said, as a feature first, and then they were like, oh, we can't get his feature made, so let's make it into a book, and then he wrote the book. But it's it's I wonder what the differences between those two screenplays would have been, because at the end of the film, it says, for Carl and You're kind of like and Drew's participation. It says it says story by the two

of them, but her participation is sort of Yeah. I do think it's because he died before the movie came out. I'm pretty sure that that's why the movie is dedicated to him specifically, Um, yeah, because he died in late nineties show like right when they were probably finished, probably while they're in production. Yeah, okay, well that's sad, Okay,

never mind. I just was like, where did because I it's it's now becomes such a Carl Sagan, like it's his project, where the story of the two of them writing it is kind of also special, but especially because I mean there is there tends to be an erasure of like there will be a famous man and then he will collaborate with a woman. Maybe it's a romantic partner. Maybe it's just like a professional partner for like much of his career, but people tend to only remember the man,

and the woman often gets erased from the narrative. I'm thinking with John Carpenter and oh my god, I don't remember her name because her name gets e raised all the time. Let me figure it out. Deborah Deborah Hill?

Is that ith? Yeah? One of many examples of this, so especially in the science world, like it's it's rampart, like Marie Curry dealt with this that if you female scientists releasing information and making just monster discoveries that men have taken credit for, like it's just and I think they they show the heartbreak of that in the film, with that guy constantly interrupting her and taking credit for her and somehow having a press conference with Bill Clinton

while he was in office, Like Bill Clinton is hell of the president at this point and he's in the movie. How did I guess? So I did some research on that because I was like he did, because first of all, Bill Clinton, right, but but on but on top of that, like did he film scenes for that movie? I don't think that he did. I think that they repurposed existing speeches he's made and wrote around it to make it work.

That makes sense in the movie, which there was there seemed to be some controversy about at the time, which is kind of like, I don't know. I was kind of like, shut up, but they were like, well, what if would have viewers think that it's a documentary if it includes the actual president? At the time, I'm like, well, then I guess that they like, I need to read

a book. It's very clearly a movie. Um, but yeah, he I think that that Like all the CNN anchors like did film scenes for the movie, but Bill Clinton didn't. They just were like, oh, what are clips of him talking about stuff that sounds like it could be about aliens. It's seamless enough that it it work, works, it works. But yes, Andrean shout out to her. She's still working today. She's worked on the Cosmos reboot. She's been like, had

complete creative control over, won a bunch of Emmys for it. Rocks. She rocks. I mean women in science fiction is I mean my whole ursula. Ky La Gwin as as the probably the most prominent science fiction writer in my life and also just an incredible intellect in the gender performative

gender gender space, feminism space. Like she she is one of the greatest science fiction writers of all time, and she's so remarkably female and talks about all most of her protagonists or women and it's uh yeah, I mean

it's women are just so fantastic in this space. And because it's science fiction, you don't always it's the future, it's it's a hope for a different time where patriarchy isn't soaked in everything we're doing, so you can have these pockets of you know, like an escape or narrative transport in a way that he really gives an opportunity to kind of unpack gender issues in the sci fi space. So the fact that women would be detectives in that

space is it makes sense to me. Um. I Also, I love that you were saying that the ending of the film had like maybe she has baby, maybe this and and you know, he's not a palmer. Josh is not in that last shot, like he's not watching her, but while she you know what I mean, Like I was, I was like, oh, that's good because we don't really know. First of all, I don't know how they have such an intimate relationship when they slept together once, she doesn't see him for like five years then and then and

then he just kai boshes her her dreams. She forgives him because she's just so kind, I guess. And then he's not there in that final sequence where she's inspiring young kids. And I remember that when I was younger, being like that's Hella inspiring. I remember being like, this works this is working on me. I'm a kid, I'm watching this. This is this is Hella working. Um, but he's not there, Thank god God. Yeah, their relationship is We touched on this, but I'm pretty sure it was

like a studio notes thing. It doesn't not appear to I didn't I didn't read the I didn't read the book. But according to the Wikipedia synopsis of the book, he is a character, but he does not appear as though

there's any romantic relationship between them. So for him to be introduced in this context in the movie is like this potential romantic prospect, which like I mean, it's she's just like has a one night stand with him, and then she's just like I don't need to talk to him again, Like we clearly don't have that much in common.

He's a theologian, I'm an agnostic scientist, Like we're not very compatible here, But then he keeps like creeping up and like try Like I'm just like, it's one thing if they have a friends with benefits thing, which is like what it seems like Ellie wants. But then he's like, as we've discussed, like I'm going to steal your dreams away from you. I am claiming ownership over you, and it's just like, leave her alone. My crush is more

important than your dreams. You're like, what the fuck? Not just your dreams, but like the greatest moment in humanity's history, Like, it's not just Jodie Foster's dreams. It's quite literally, she is the one person who has to go talk to aliens for the first time in the human species existent and he's like a little about my crush. Yeah, And what's especially frustrating about that is that like, yeah, she

too easily forgives him. I feel like once she learns, once he reveals to her, oh, the real reason I voted for you not to go to Vega was because of my little crush, and then she should have been like, Okay, thanks for telling me. Now I know to never fucking talk to you again. You ask whole I was also, I mean, particularly with that studio, like very studio notes relationship. I just first of all, this movie just could have generally been a little shorter. And that's face that Palmer

Joss takes up. I feel it could have been way better used by giving Ellie a woman to talk to, and like, because I understand that like, you know in her workplace, it it you know there are other female scientists. I wish that she had someone to talk to at work. But if that is not possible for story reasons or because of the life experience that you're pulling from from Dr Jill and on and on, then it's like it's a movie. You can include other women for her to

have friendships and meaningful relationships with. But I feel like instead of using the area that we're given in this movie to build out Ellie's inner life, it's like dad and love interest and there's no and it sounds like I mean, it's it's extra frustrating Kelly hearing that that her mom is present in the book and there is a relationship that we have to just kind of built her out outside of how she relates to a their men and occasionally Angela Bassett, who also doesn't get enough

to do. The fact that she was barely in my recap speaks to like, she's not an unimportant character, but she's not so important that she's really influencing major like narrative story beats. She shows up, like halfway through she shows up. The film is just white people until like an hour and a half in and then it's Angelo Bassett and then that's pretty much it. It's not and

you don't you don't not. You don't know what she wants, you don't know why she's she, you don't know what her job is, you don't know what her opinion is. In fact, every time anyone expresses an opinion, her her opinion is. Can you guys just stop arguing, like can you can you calm down? You don't ever find out what Angela Bassett's character, what the fabric of her character is, what makes her tick? Nothing, You just you just know

that she's like the president's mouthpiece. And because we couldn't afford the real Bill Clinton, we have Angela Bassett sort of like talking for him, but there's no real We don't they don't give her anything, and the only conversation, as with Jodie Foster, is a girlfriend I need to dress, which is problematic, which is it's so fright because it's it would have been so cool to build out that relationship between those two characters, because they're coming from very

different places. You get like little tastes of it where I like when when Angela Bassett's character Rachel is introduced.

She's just like, oh fuck, the aliens sent us a clip of Hitler, and Jodie Foster is like no, no, no no, no no. There's like there's all this, you know, like they're they're coming from very different places, and it would have been cool to explore that, like, you know, Angela Bassett is like, beholden to this, you know, governmental bureaucracy, and Jodie Foster like has this totally and it's like, well that what's going on there, Like let's get Matthew

McConaughey the funk out of here. There's like better characters for her to be interacting. Yeah, okay, I had to

go out of the story. Um. Yeah, there's a really quick moment that I think could have been just like drawn out and and explored a bit more where and maybe I'm even like misinterpreting this, but it seems like Rachel Angela Bassett's character is kind of advocating for Ellie to be kept in control of the project because James Woods is all like, let's militarize this, and she's like no, no, no, like for now Ellie is in charge still, and that would have been I would have liked to just see

more women lifting up other women here, because as we've kind of touched on already, there's this like recurring motif a theme throughout the movie of men taking credit for women's work. And this is especially true of Drumlin, who keeps like swooping in and when someone's like okay, and now the person who's the lead on the project who made this discovery, Ellie thinks that she's about to get

called up. We think she is, but then they call up Drumlin and he takes the credit for this discovery for the most part, and then that little speech he gives her before right before he blows up, I'm like byre where he's like, you know, it sucks that, like you probably think we live in a meritography, but we just don't. So about to take your dream. You're like fuck you. And like I was like, oh man, I hope he explodes, and then he did. He did, And

it's interesting. It's interesting that the film sort of positions all of this like religion narrative of like, you know, the person who goes to meet the aliens should represent all humanity, therefore believing God. But it becomes clear that Drummond only said that he was doing it for God

to sort of be political and get the position. And I think it was a really interesting critique of how politicians and people in power will sort of ride that party line, will sort of placate the religious base in order to get political gains. It was sort of an interesting thing. And he kind of admits it to her. He's like, I'm sorry that I know you were honest, but sometimes I'm butchering it. But he says something like sometimes honesty is not how you get ahead, or something

like that. But he's basically like, don't hate the player, hate the game. Yeah right, yeah, that's yeah, Okay, that's time to blow up. Yeah. I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea of selecting one person to represent all of humanity, and the only topic that gets discussed is like religion, really, and they're like, we want someone who believes in God, and the person who ends up originally being selected is a white, able bodied, upper

class sisman from from America. And then it's a SIS able bodied white woman who is highly educated, middle class from America. So what I would like to propose, you know, people of Earth basically should have been like, okay, Vega Aliens. I see your one person space transport, and I raise you a one hundred person space vehicle that can carry a larger group of people who are actually more representative of the Earth. Kelly, you were saying that more people

do go in the book. Five people go in the book, and I believe it's like from a diverse representation of humanity. Um uh, and each of them have This is again I'm going to get in trouble with the sci fi fans, but I think each of them has their own like beach experience where they each are visited by a moniker

or phantom of a memory that makes them feel uncomfortable. Um. But yeah, it's it's definitely I will say this though I don't know how you guys feel about this, but I do think the film does a good job of showing the moments where a female scientist is being stepped

on and and disregarded and underestimated and all that. But the whole conversation, the whole campaign about whether or not it should be Jodie Foster dr Ellie going on this trip, I do feel like they sort of I mean, the reality is there would be so much sexism around that would be the fanfare of it and the news coverage of it, and like whether or not a woman should go or a man like that was completely not and what the virtues of having a female go versus a male,

Like what the type of diplomacy that women are by a sad default taught their whole lives to diffuse and to be you know, be good at at a sort of more maternal maternal and imperative experienceuring, nurturing and represented him in the race because and so they don't really that's just completely not present. It's just like, yeah, it would be in America if there was a couple of women who are nominated for the campaign and men, it would just be all fair game. Well we know it

wouldn't be. And that's like and I think that all the religious as you said, it's all about religion, Well, if it is about religion, and knowing how gendered the religious space can be, especially when coming up with like the one Messiah esque person who's gonna talk to the aliens, I don't know, I feel like they kind of just glossed over that JODI's not sitting there going They're not picking me because I'm a woman, which is would be my first thought, my first life, right, which which I

feel like it's kind of partially implied in in the text too, because she's being steamrolled by all her male superiors basically like I mean, it's I I get like, if it's one person who can go, it's like, well she discovered it's so like she's like I Also this reminded me of um an amazing work by friend of the cast, Marsha Belski that has to do with sexism in space travel, which the one hundred Tampons song, which

if you haven't heard it, you gotta hear it. But it's based around this, uh, this anecdote where NASA thought Sally Ride needed one hundred tampons to go into space for a week quote unquote just to be safe. Like it's there is I mean in the friger back you go, the worse it is, but there was a clear president for uh sexism and just a complete no understanding of menstruating people at all. The tampons really, um, it's a bob will link it in the description. It's really good. Yeah, yeah,

I do. I do wish that there that Um, it's kind of it's I don't know, I mean, the sexism that she is facing is definitely present, but it's like you don't really hear her talk about it very much. It's interesting, it's more woman for her to talk to. Maybe, yeah, it does seem a bit more subtle because it never gets like specifically named, or you never have someone like Drumlind being like, who's gonna believe you? You silly women?

Women can't do science, which is fine, which is good because that would be crummy writing, right, So, but yeah, it does get kind of glossed over. But I think there's also something interesting about like no one's like, oh, you can't do science, you woman, and for there to be representation of that on screen, where like people still take her seriously for the most part and acknowledge that she is a brilliant scientist and don't really bring gender

into it. Even though it might not be the most realistic thing all the time, I still think there's something interesting about just like allowing that to be seen by people. I guess I just wish that maybe Jody annotates it.

She's aware of what's going on, Like it's like she's there, there's all these things happening to her, and there this is the moment where Drummond takes this the podium in front of and with the president, and there there is this feeling of immediate heartbreak and loss, but it's that's just how it is. She's just upset and that. And then there's not that other female character for her for her to sort of um write trade notes with and be like, yes, this is how it is, and da

da da, and yes this is the nineties. So that's kind of the thing. And and you're right, there is something really remarkable where Jody is not gendering herself. She just cares. Her bottom line is science. She identifies as

a scientist. She is scientist. Dr Ellie like, it's she is that so um and I can relate to that a lot, because it's like the most I don't know, disorienting moments of sexism or when you're you're just identifying yourself as a as a as an artist or an a tour or a someone who is trying to make something happen and someone else is gendering you and you're like the math doesn't compute. You're like, oh, yeah, right, I guess you're thinking this where I'm just thinking of

myself as artist. I'm just thinking myself as mart And and I love that in the film because that's her like not to make a not to make a space pun, but like that's like her north Star. You know, she's just is so. And then when she's in space and she sees the galaxy thing and she's like, I have

no words, it's so beautiful. Like that, the fact that she has those blinders on and that's all she cares about leads up to this incredible moment, which I'll say I only noticed last night because maybe my VHS VHS copy was a VHS copy, which you know, for people who know VHS, it's like it was mostly static. It was there's this moment where she's looking at the galaxy and her face changes to her younger version of herself. Did you guys catch that sending her voice changes? I

don't remember that happening whatsoever. And I was like, is this like a remastering like someone who made the Blu Ray the Blue Ray DVD was like, let's add this weird moment because the technology almost almost also feels too good to advance for seven Yeah, well, I mean I'm not sure if you guys remember that sweet CG action, but it was not seamless and there was super great I really, I mean it's I'm I'm so interested to hear both of your perspectives and how the sexism in

this movie is treated. And I yeah, I'm kind of of like two minds about it where it I think I would have really rolled my eyes if they came at it from a super nineties like a woman can't do this, and she goes, well, guess what I'm going to show you? Like that is such a convention that and and I feel like you can really tell that someone who had experienced this kind of discrimination had been consulted because the examples are so like baked into the movie,

so it's like Jill Tarter's consultation. You can like feel it in the way that like even in moments that that were very small where there's a scene where Jodie Foster is trying to talk to Angela Bassett as they're doing a very West wing walk through the white House moment and what I kept calling him a drum line in my head, Uh, drumline, drum line. Drumline just starts talking over her and like start continues her sentence as if it was his own idea, and you're like, yeah,

that's such a small thing, but it really connects. And I do think that like the most elegant way to acknowledge it without making it like a real bash over the head third wave feminism moment is to just give her someone to talk to about it, even in passing, like I feel like it would have helped. But that said, I feel like the the sexism she experienced this is pretty clear. I mean, especially at like the James Wood screaming at her on national television of like blaming her

for all sorts of ship. That makes no sense. You're delusional, you were hysterical, you hallucinated the whole thing. And the way that she keeps her cool like is so it's like she's like you're saying, like she's a scientist first, and she's like, okay, as a scientist, I have to say, like, yeah, I don't have any people like maybe you're maybe you should have given me better than like a pair of five dollar headphones, like attached to a little metal headband

with nobs, no body pins. They weren't attached. And I just love that Jody, even when she's like traverse dimensions and she's on some sort of like tropical beach with her dad. She's still like, are you guys reading this? Like she still has confidence and she's like, I have to record this. I I can have confidence in this

little too hicky. Um, yeah, you're you're still right. It is sort of that that nineties convention of of like a woman can't do that, and like that's detrimental and problematic and leave such a horrible like graveyard of films where you're watching women be like subject subjectified and and

all that stuff. So and I will say that I would categorize this film in the canon of pre you know where we're at now, I guess pre me too area era where we're sort of not find a lot of the things we know and how the functions of these films work has not been normalized. Where I have to give a lot of credit to Jodie Foster and and a lot of actresses at this time period and from the last hundred years of filmmaking who are the sort of like last vestige or last stance of of

being able to advocate for themselves on set. Like I constantly read interviews with with Meryl Streep and and and actors who have been working forever, who are like I literally had to sit down with the writer and say, she wouldn't do that. That's not what she did, would do She cares about science and at Female actors just don't get this sort of retroactive credit that I think that they deserve for advocating for their storylines. I'm trying. I'm blanking on the film that I read Meryl Streep

talking about this, the one. Maybe it's the one with Deer and the title. What's the title of that film, Dear, dear hunter, no killing of a sacred dear damn it, I'll have to I can't remember, But there's a one where she talks about like, basically I had to help rewrite that film because the because the female character made no sense, and it's the making of no sense. The sort of the thing we're struggling with is it makes no sense that her relationship with Palmer Joss. It doesn't

to us. It reads false because we know we know it makes her tick, We know the fiber of her character, we know what she would live and die for. She says it. She says, I believe this is worth dying for. She says it so the falsities in her behavior, the choice to forgive Palmer for quite literally stomping on something that she is willing to die for, it reads so false.

So I mean, I just have to give credit to Jody because I can't imagine that she wasn't on set with those with her, you know, running around looking for the writer and the producer and the director with her script in hand, being like, no, she cares about science. No, she cares about science, and it's on every line she says.

And it's so radiant in that way. It's such a radiant performance because it's like from the very first thing we see her in as a young girl to the very end of the film and her admitting, yes, I can't give you empirical evidence as a scientist, I must concede that like her church, her God, her religion is almost more realized than any religion that is represented in the film. Her religion is so realized in science. Shout out to Jody. She's she. They named an asteroid after

her after the movie came up early. There's an asteroid named after Jodie Foster. I have to I'm assuming off of the success of Contact, but maybe just her impact, and so felt that they're like, well, we were going to do this anyways, but yeah, Asteroid seventeen seven forty four Jodie Fostering One thing though, the did ring more true though in the movie was and already touched on this.

But like for me, for example, when I have been on the receiving end of sexism, it hasn't most of the time, it hasn't been someone being like, oh, well you're a woman, so you can't do this. It's just been like more subtle stuff like me being talked over, me being interrupted, me, like people passing me over for opportunities, like things like that. That is what Jody Foster's character is experiencing in this movie. So I appreciate that you do have this like what we clearly identify as sexism,

but it is not super overt or explicit. The sexism is, you know, more covert and subtle, which again I think is a more common version of how people's sexism manifests. So that happening in the movie to Jody's character just ran very true. Right, It's a very good point, very good point. One thing I wanted to quickly shout out this was kind of my last note on Ellie was it like exists throughout the background of the film. But I really liked her friendship with her coworker Kent. I

thought that that was really lovely. And it's I think it's just again, it's like we're really looking for scraps in movies from the nineties in particular. But the fact that she had like a very just a platonic friendship that seemed to be built on a lot of mutual respect for each other with her friend Kent, and I just thought it was so nice. And then when he shows up at the end, she's like, oh my god, my friend Ken. And then he hears her. He's the one who hears her saying, yeah, he to go. I

started sobbing. I started sobbing. I sobbed a lot last night. Guys. I'm really trying to play cool, but I sobbed hard at the end of Jodie's whole You know, yeah, that that relationship with Kent is really really interesting. I think it's a little problematic the portrayal of a blind man

that he plays. It's a little you're kind of again, as you said, playing for scraps with movies in the nineties, because it's not only that he's portrayed as blind, but almost that he's I don't know, something to be um to kind of handle with kid gloves a little bit, Like the portrayal of of him as blind is sort of I don't know. I'm not sure what you guys

think about that. Yeah, I was trying to find writing about this and I couldn't find anything specifically about this character in regards to the representation of a blind or visually impaired person. Definitely, it's problematic that the character is not played by an actor who is blind. Um, he's

played by William Fitchner, who is not blind. It felt to me, and this is just kind of my limited understanding, but it felt like there were not a slew of tropes surrounding blindness that you do see in a lot of movies that are like really problematic. I feel like this movie avoided a fair number of those tropes. But I'm curious what listeners thoughts are on this, particularly anyone

with a visual impairment. Um. I also so Kent is based on a real person who was part of this project who was blind, So it's I don't know, Yeah, I would be really curious to hear what our listeners think on that. But I was I was like, oh, it is based on a real person who Jill Tarter knew and worked with, So it seems like that they were pulling from like some sort of real life dynamic

that actually existed. But again it's I mean, the conversation around actors who who do not have the disability of the characters are portraying is like, you know, very ongoing conversation that we want to you know, be a part of and keep learning about. So shout out to the real Kent colors I'm seeing I'm kind of seeing this in real time. But there's a documentary on him and on his career. Um, he is the first American astronomer who was blind from birth and he continued to work

at the Seti Institute until two thousand five. So very cool. It sounds sounds like a legend. I'm like, with all this stuff, I like, I don't understand science, but that sounds pretty cool. But yeah, shout out, shout out Kent. I just wanted to address some of the science stuff

because it really bothers me. At the end, when James Woods goes absolutely like batshit on her, like, like the the expectation that she would have evidence and it's on her to provide it is it still makes me angry in it and it and speaking of like remembering what this film felt like when I was young, I remember

this feeling of feeling frustrated. But what doesn't make sense to me is, you know, Palmer at one point and her have this conversation about, well, fifty years may pass, like it might be a forty five seconds on Earth and that might be fifty years, and he's like, are you chill with that? And she's like, I'm chill with that because this is my life's work and this is

like what humanity is for and all that. But for some reason, like that is not brought back into the possible explanation as to why she thinks that she had

this huge experience and this um like that. Why does that not brought up that the space time continuum, the inflation of space of time at the end in the Senate, why isn't she like, well, as we've talked about, time on Earth is forty five seconds, but passing through multiple wormholes into you know, lightning years away, time is going to be bloated in this way which which they already established as being a thing. Even a theologian who is

not a man of science understands. He's like, you're gonna be gone for fifty years, even though it will only seem like maybe four years to you, right, So like, yeah, you already know that time is different and that is perceived differently. Seconds dropping through dropping through will be could be a lifetime. And so that's what makes me mad, And mostly that that James Wood thought that he's allowed to stand up in that sense hearing and turn around and yell at her, and like I'm like, who told

you you're allowed to stand up in those things? It seems very intentional that he's like making this show of it because it's televised and like all this stuff, and like the nineties was so full of women's truth being discredited on live television for people to to watch that it was like, oh god, there were so many like other hearings like that that had nothing to do with space that like your head kind of goes to when you see like a really aggressive man discrediting what a

woman says is like the truth. And also, Kelly, when you mentioned this earlier, I was like, oh yeah, like the fact that James Wood is like blaming equipment failure that she didn't design on hers Like for what, like if you would think that someone else in the room would be like, hold on, she didn't make those shitty headphones like Sony did or whatever. You have no evidence. You didn't bring back any evidence, Like what the hell was she supposed to do besides just experience it? You know.

It's like she's like, um, yeah, I I'm not like a documentarian. I'm a scientist. Experiencing science like it was very It made me so angry and then I had like like flashbacks to being angry as a kid being And I don't know, this film was more formative than I thought that. I was quite aware of rewatching and I'm like, oh, this did wire itself onto my d n A. Yeah, those moments they're frustrating, not because they're

like poorly written. They're frustrating because like it's representative of like again, sexism that exists in the world, and like him just not believing women is sexism that exists in the world. For them to then go outside and people were like mmmmmm, Ellie, yeah, I see that you're there, But hey, Mr Mr Perlmer, what do you do you believe her? What do you believe? And people are focused on the opinion of this man, and it's very frustrating

because it's sexism that is very familiar to us. You know, people only believing a woman if a man is validating her. But yeah, it's something that the movie is handling very effectively. I think I just hate the part where the man who is validating her is also this like wedged in love interest. Those I mean, those those studio notes scenes are so agregious and so cudible to like, it was just like you could cut the like, I just it's painful.

It's painful to watch. We we have references he at the movie, but this is an extremely white movie in a way that is very unnecessary. And I mean, the only black character that has any real impact in the movie is Angela Bassett's character Rachel, who, as we said, she she has a strong function, she's a strongly motivated character, but we don't know anything about her and we don't

get any look into her interior life. We don't really get to know except until I mean, honestly, we don't know what she thinks about, Like Jodie Foster is she because we couldn't figure out is she the kind of character that's going to want to people to know, or maybe she's not. Maybe she's like I've I am a bureaucratic person, and I'll keep it quiet, like we just don't know, we're well enough to know. I wanted to shout out legendary character actor Tucker Smallwood, who plays the

mission control guy. He almost presses the red button, but then I couldn't tell that his character was given a name or not. He was like pretty like active for like a you know, the climax of the movie. But I didn't even figure out. But he's just credited as mission director, which is so ridiculous. You're like, what the what the like? Could you be lazier and more dismissive because he he was. He was great. He was you know, he was Mr. Red Button like and and then there

there um was. I think in the first crew of scientists there was one black scientist who says like one line and then he's gone, and everyone else it's just it's just white people. You have to Japanese um engineers or engineers. Yeah, but they but as you said, Kelly, they they say like maybe a line and that's it. They say nothing. And they also sort of portray a stereotype of Japanese scientists, and that is sort of this

kind of stereotype of of of subservience. And um, I find that deeply problematic because you because, especially knowing in the book how much the Japanese science and inventors have such a say in the in the Final Machine, So it's a very American lens of how Japanese people behave

in a way, That's what I felt. Yeah, I think it's like ultimately, I mean, even speaking to to what the book represents, like this should very much be a global story that is inclusive of more than white Americans and and and it seems like that was a very conscious, like goober Hollywood style choice is to only center sist straight white Americans in this story that should be I mean, it's it's like an event for humanity, not middle class

white Americans. And so that is you know, definitely worth you know, continuing to be critical of because we had a similar conversation on our episode about Arrival, which we covered on our on the Patreon slash Matren similar movies, and that a woman in stem is the protagonist of the of a movie where aliens make contact with the people of Earth, but it is still very like America

centric narrative, as many Hollywood sci fi films are. I mean, I watched, as I said, unfortunately, I watched um Interstellar recently, and that one is I missed it when it came out, and it's breathtaking how little any other place in the whole goddamn world is represented besides America. Like the concept is that Earth is dying, that resources are are impoverished and depleting, and crops are dying, and all they show

is this back country American farm. They don't show anywhere else in the world that would be absolutely far more strapped if the world was if the if there was windstorms and you know, climate changes we're dealing with now, like as if it wouldn't be Indonesia or anywhere other than or in Haiti, where like the very front lines of climate change and places where these where that type of shift and degree in climate would be most readily felt.

And it's like it's literally just Jessica Chas Dane and Matthew McConaughey's fam who are struggling on their farm and they're you know, he's going to fix the world, start a new colony with only white people, and it's it's a sad tradition of of this type of movie. But I also think it filters into this sort of American identity of being like the only ones who have ever uh participated in the space exploration space or the sorry space exploration space like that sounds that's that's not the

best way to say that space exploration. But yeah, I mean like this idea that we're like, we have to be the saviors of humanity. Yeah, it's just such as an outsider watching it, I mean, outside of being Canadian, non American, it has always been such a difficult and weird pill to swallow, like the constant flags that you American flags on new planets that you see in every flipping movie. You know, it is bizarre to me because the end the tradition of engineering and science and technology

and and stem in all forms is so diverse. It is so oh god, look, it just makes me want to break something in a not in like a less violent wait. But you know, Interstellar Arrival has that any type of let's save humanity has that ilk of and guess who our saviors are Team America. Yeah, I also

found it. Maybe this is just me, but it gets mentioned in the movie that half a trillion dollars is spent on this project, and you hear like similar stories in real life about all this, Like federal money is doing right now, private money, federal money being spent on space exploration and stuff like that, which is important people who are working on that, Like, I understand that that's important, but also like a large percentage of the world's population

is living in poverty, so like, I don't know, maybe let's focus on Earth's issues before we like spend trillions of dollars. Right now, you're quoting, this is what Palmer was talking about at the beginning of the film, and it never panned out. Not you agree with Palmer, Yeah, sort of what Palmer was talking about, sort of like, you know, how do you how do you explore other places when you're not taking care of the people in your backyard. And that's not to say that Palmer had

a point, but he did have some points. Points were made. He had one point. Yeah, it never really came up. Again, Um, here's my hot take about this movie. Ready, everyone, So the you know, all the billions of dollars that they spend on this machine and this trip that Ellie takes, the conversation that she ends up having with the alien could have been an email. They didn't need, they didn't need to build a machine. Why why aren't they just sending out some emails? You know, I didn't have to

be a meeting. Could have been an email, thank you? I mean, I think that that's if there's anything you know, That's another thing that we've learned in the past year. There's a lot of things could could have just been an email. Yeah, could have been an email. A well written email feels as good as a revisit from your dead dad, honestly, but also to send it fire off a bunch of prime numbers. See if anyone responds, Hey, Ellie, it's your dad. That's emoticon? Doesn't she know which emojis?

Does the aliens feel like alien species? Go with? Oh goodness? Does this movie pass the back told test it. I think it's technically does, but it's not a very satisfying pass. That was what I That was my conclusion. Yeah, there were two conversations that I felt were candidates for passing. One where Angela Bassett is she's kind of addressing a whole room full of people, but she like looks at Ellie a couple of times and Ellie responds and Ellie response.

But it's that conversation where like Rachel is saying that for now, like Ellie will remain in charge of this like decrypt effort. A few men are mentioned in that conversation, so that one's a little murky. And then later when Ellie is like, hey, Rachel, do you know where I can find a really great dress because women be talking about shopping? Yikes, technically, but I think that the context, I mean, I don't know, maybe it is a reach today the context is like, because I want to look

nice for Matthew McConaughey. That was the implied context to me. Yes, exactly, I'm gonna give this one like a Barrelly pass. It's not it's not a great If it is a pass, it's not, it's not a great one. Yeah, drawing around conclusion, I mean, and also, it's a fucking two and a

half hour movie. The fact that we have to be the splitting hairs here is ridiculous, truly, So yeah, well that brings us to our nipple scale on which we rate the movie, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens on a scale of zero to five nipples, and I would say, I think this movie is ahead of its

time in a lot of ways. I think that it's awesome that you have, you know, women in stem visibility because this is the type of representation where like little girls watching this movie who maybe hadn't seen themselves represented before in a like stem role can be like, wow, women can be scientists. I can be scientists, Like I can go and be a scientist. So um, I think that that's really important. And this was, you know, a big budget movie that was successful at the box office.

A lot of people saw it, so that is a great thing. I also think it's cool that and this is something that also I brought up on our Arrival episode. But I love when a movie with a protagonist who is a woman explores like deep philosophical existential questions because like philosoph fee has been a topic dominated by men, not because women are not capable of philosophical debate, and

not because they haven't been doing the work. It just hasn't been preserved and uplifted in the same way exactly, And I also think I think that's like the the backside to the Bechtel test is that without women taught, when you have films where women are only talking about men, it means all the important philosophical like bomb dropping political conversations about the film are happening by the male characters.

Like that I always think is the interesting flip side to the Bechtel test is like, for all the conversations women are having about only men, the male the male conversations can be about what is this film trying to say? And what is how is it trying to change the world.

So for for her to participate in this discussion around like faith versus science, for you know, evidence versus like all you know, all that kind of stuff, I really appreciated because like, for exact ample counter to this would be in our Da Vinci Code episode another Matreon episode.

But um, you have these two men talking about like it's not philosophy, but they're talking about you know, history and like all all this like Christian mythology and stuff like that, and then Audrey Tattoo is just like what, I don't like she doesn't get to contribute anything. So Audrey tattoo and the Da Vinci Code. I don't know why that was the first example that came to my head, but yeah, so I appreciate that about this movie. The sexism that Ellie is on the receiving end of is

definitely present. I think it's interesting the way that it was handled in that it's like very present, but like kind of subtle, or it's like not super explicit. And you know, the idea that like she is not believed that she is kind of she is like accused of being delusional and hysterical, she is often overlooked or you know, men are take credit for her work. Uh are all like very real and present things that women experience. And um, I thought that was all interesting. But then it's got

its problems. You've got this wedged in romantic subplot that I can't think of a subplot, a romantic subplot that has ever been less necessary in a movie. And more obviously, Yeah, it just made me feel yucky. Um. The extreme whiteness of the film, the stre extreme again like US centric nature of the narrative. UM assists white, middle class, highly educated,

able bodied woman being representative all of humanity. So um, you know it's got some like of the time nineties era problems, but I also think it's ahead of its time and other ways. So I would I want to give this like a three somewhere between, like a three three and a half range nipple wise, and I'll give one to Jodie Foster. I'll give one nipple to Jill Tarter, I will give one nipple to Andrew In, and I will give all throw in like a quarter nipple to

the phrase okay to go, I'll meet you there. Three and a quarter sounds about right, Um, for all the reasons you described, this should very much be a global story,

and I think that that's something that we us. Centrism in basically all of Western film is definitely a huge issue, but I feel like it crops up in this genre particularly all the time in a way that like I can't really think of a space movie that I've seen and I haven't seen that, Like, I can't really think of like a space movie that doesn't have this kind of underbrewing of American patriotism to it in a way that is like definitely insidious and long overdue to be

challenged in like a meaningful way, because it is like because I enjoyed this genre, but there always is kind of a flag wavy element to it that, um, this movie is not the most guilty of that's probably independently maybe Armageddon. Armageddon is pretty flag wavy too, like but but but it is like, you know, something we should keep talking about because it is like even in a movie like That's where it isn't the most forced on you,

it is still very much forced on you. Um I I do I like how this movie, did you know, they did their homework in a way that most movies don't. Um. They spoke to female scientists who have experienced this you know, subcategory of sexism and kind of put it into the script in a in a way that flowed very naturally.

I do wish that Jodie Foster's character had another woman to relate to about this um or speak too, and that would have been a way better use of our time than making us look at Matthew McConaughey's scarf that said, I really like, I don't know, I was very moved by like parts of this movie, and a lot of

that is just like Jodie Foster. But um, it does seem like this is a project that was driven by even even in a majority male creative team, that like the key creative decisions were pushed through by female producers, by Andre and by by Jill Tarter and and by Jodie Foster. So yeah, you know, this should have been a more global movie. But I still think it holds up in more ways than I was expecting. So get at three in a quarter and yeah, I'll give one to Jody, one to Jill, one to Ann and I'll

give the last quarter two the headphones that didn't. But I want to take a nipple. I want to give a nipple to Angela Bassett. So who's on the chopping block? I'm just going to redistribute it equally. So, um, that's good. That's good. You're gonna you're gonna split a number that cannot be split into a transcendental pie. Honestly, three in a quarter is so close to pie. I'm gonna give it pineapples. That's infinite nipples, pineapples, pineapples, and um, I'm

gonna all distribute them evenly between the people. I said, plus Angela Bassett pineapple? Um, what about you, Kelly, Well, yeah, I'm really into this pineapple. I there is so much.

I do have a really interesting bookend with this film, as I've watched it as a young um, a young girl, someone who has treated like a girl with as to bring it back to my many male cousins and in the world I grew up in, I will say, for all of its problems and it's um America centrism, which if I can provide an alternate, uh, Danny Boyle's Sunshine is a really good example of I think of an American made film that doesn't have that sort of patriotism. Uh.

Tarkovsky's Solaris. Solaris is one of the most beautiful sci fi films ever made that deals with, like, you know, going up into space on a mission, a suicidal mission of hope for humanity sort of thing. But I will say, for all of its problems and its lack of representation, its lack of representing humanity and all of it, I can't disregard how this movie made me feel as a young girl, and now I cannot disregard how impactful it

was and how it felt. Watch that moment where she's running and the science is happening and she's spitting out all these crazy things like it's those moments where you don't quite register or or you've registered the sexism You've experienced your whole life on such a molecular level that when it's being encountered with such a brazen expression of a woman following her passion in an area dominated by men, you feel like bubbling up from your stomach and your

gut being like like, oh my gosh, I've never how cool is it that she's racing through here and talking on the walkies. So I'm going to give it like a really, I gotta give all four nipples to Jodie Foster, uh and say her and mostly Jodie Foster's eyes like just those bigwelling, truthful pools of truth looking into the stars, Like I that's the film for me, is going the rest of it, All the problems of it sort of I think are worthy of discussion, which we have of

you know, we've discussed it. But what you cannot with all the problems and the scarves and the McConaughey, even though he tries to make the scenes about himself, nothing nothing comes close to Jodie Foster's eyes looking at stars. There's just nothing. And the way I felt when I was twelve watching this film or thirteen or where however

old I was versus now is very similar. So for nipples, for Jodie Foster's eyes, Yeah, she has more chemistry with the the sky and the cosmos that she's looking at than she does with Matthew McConaughey. And it's so true and how beautiful is that? Like, think about how easy it would have been to make this character male, and to say, in terms of representation of a woman just following her dreams and having an interest for her life and her for her heart, that is that doesn't involve

a male, even though Mathe McConaughey is there. It's like her her love interest is the star's end of story. We didn't need to add anyone else. Well, Kelly, thank you so much for for being here, for joining us. I can't believe we recorded for eighteen hours with you. Oh my goodness, creating. I know, it's like what happened in Static. We don't know, okay to go, that's yeah, I did. I had to edit out a lot, so yeah, this is like a two hour episode that originally was

eighteen hours. Thank you for being here. What tell us where we can find you on social media anything you'd like to plug, et cetera. Oh man, uh, well, on social media, I'm on Instagram at Kelly and Phyllis. That's pretty much the only I'm on Twitter too, but I'm thinking of leaving shortly, so probably for the best, Yeah, probably the best. I don't use it really, but so find on Instagram. I post a lot of photos of trees and nature's I'm just like got an Instagram account

for the Terrence Malick fans out there. I just like nature. Um. I have a film coming out or no, that is out already on v o D anywhere you rent movies called Gore Daddy, which is about a woman brazenly trying to make art and surrounded by patriarchy and men and men trying to control her voice and her trying to find it. So I will say that this film very much is was on the origin story of the film that I of this film, Sugar Daddy. So that's that's what I want to plug, because it's not set in space.

It's setting a grimy apartment in Toronto. But is that not space? Like, let's be let's be real if anything could be space. Thank you so much for being with us, Kelly, we really appreciate it and thank you for bringing us this movie. It was like, it was such a fun there's so much to talk about. It's been a it's been a long requested movie. So finally I'm glad we finally got to do it. Oh man, that's so happy, And thank you for like what a speaking of dreams?

Like how fun? Is it? Just a chat for like two hours, two plus hours, eighteen hours? Like, man, people who wanted your Your podcast is so valuable and on and it speaks to a type of discussion that I could have at all times. So I'm happy to do it sort of mildly professionally with you guys. Come back anytime. Um. And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast and subscribe to our Matreon where we have covered Arrival and Da Vinci Code and other movies

but I didn't reference on today's episode. Uh that's five dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus episodes plus the entire back catalog, and that's at Patreon dot com, slash becktel Cast, and you can get our merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all your various items with our Stefan Aney. We don't have a space suit yet yet, but we'll see or add or a headband. No flimsy radio shack. F Oh,

that's so funny. That's the real merge from that film. Yeah, for sure, that was the merche opportunity um and I think otherwise, Uh, we're okay to go, okay, we're okay to go. Bye bye, bye bye.