Coco with Dani Fernandez

by the way, Wow, that's exciting. Well, I love Dante. I want a Dante at my house. I love Dante so much. I know, he's one of my favorite Pixar Disney animal familiars in many moons, and he doesn't even need to talk. I always feel like I'm like, whenever a Disney animal companions so good they don't even need to speak, You're like, that's a that's a heavy heater. Yeah, Dante's in the Hall of Fame. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.

My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens with some of our favorite people in the world, and we do that using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for discussion, which I simply don't remember. What is that, Caitlin, I'll remind you. It's been it's been half We've been doing the show for half a decade, and yet what even is it? Well, it's always changing and growing, and

our version of it these days fluid. Yeah, it is very fluid. So it's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, in which our version is two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they must speak to each other about something other than a man for at least two lines of dialogue, and ideally that conversation is narratively important and not just like hey Judy, you know, hey Sally, you know when you hear it, when you hear it,

meaning full exchange, you're like, Okay, something happened there, yea. And we have a very popular request on the show today with a very popularly requested guest. She's been on the show many, many times, and the movie is Coco, and the guest is if you clicked. You already know. But Caitlyn give us the give us the rentdown. She's a writer, she's an actress. You remember her from our episodes on tomb Raider and The Adams Family. It's Danny Fernandez.

Welcome back for having me. God, thanks for coming back. I'm so glad that y'all had me watched this movie earlier, Like I just haven't watched it in like a year, and I was like, I needed a reason to cry than all of the other reasons that we have to cry. Right, it felt good though. I could feel it coming on and I just let it take over. I was like,

that feels good. Sometimes you just need that sweet Coco cry release really, Like it's no matter how many times you see certain parts coming Like last night, I was like, I've seen this movie before at this point, like I I'm going to be able to compartmentalize through this part and I've never been successful. Wrong, wrong, wrong, I didn't like hydrate properly before watching like the whole thing. Oh my gosh. So Danny, what's your relationship and history and

all that with Coco. Well, it's uh, you know, representative of my family and background, my families from Mexico and um, actually have a big I'll have to send you guys a picture so that you can share it if you want to. But I have a big Coco guitar that has like painting of of like the characters from Coco. It's really beautiful. It's actually one of my favorite is of art that I own because you can see I also have art of other Disney art and stuff behind me.

But um, I don't know, I have so many different launching points into this. One thing is that I I sent y'all also a video of my niece reading the Coco book, like the Golden Book. Yeah, And so it was so funny because we didn't really feel like we had, you know, as far as representation goes, like before this, we had Mowanna and so that was around the time that she was born and she was like one or two and mo Wanna came out, and so we're getting

her all Mahanna stuff. We just wanted anything that kind of looked like her to have, if that makes sense. And so I think on her second birthday was like all Mohanna stuff. Want what she still has? She like loves her Ma Wanna dolls. And then Coco came out, and I was like, great, I have something from her culture, from her background that we can we can help, you know, teach her. Uh So then I got her the Coco guitar, like the White famous like guitar hab she can play on.

My brother has pictures of him like playing guitar for her when he would like, um, play her to like to sleep, and so like it was just I don't know, I felt like so many different intersections. I'm also pretty um, pretty open about having issues in my own family and not being close with certain people in my family, and so like I really related to that aspect of of

the movie. Um. And then we also have an a friend at my brother has that he taught my niece and nephew and so we have our our deceased relatives on there and it has candles and like they've they've taught their kids, you know about that and so yeah, so so it was it was great. You know, before this, we had the Book of Life by Jorge Gautierrez and and she also has that movie in that book as well.

And so the more representation, the more stories around this that we can tell, I think is is really important. But I personally just felt very happy that this existed so that we could pass this in my family. Oh that's so wonderful, beautiful a little bit, Jamie. What's your relationship with Coco? Uh? Pretty simple. I mean, I just I've seen it several times. It makes me cry every time,

and I take a lot of joy in it. It is I mean, I'm not of Mexican descent at all, and I might think my my knowledge and my just experience of an understanding of Dia del Maritas and I think very like basic aspects of Mexican culture. I mean, I just don't know enough basically, and I think that this a lot of what this movie does. Although there is some criticism that we'll get into as well, but

like I I've learned from this movie too. And then the way that Coco kind of ingratiates Mexican culture into the plot in a way that is very natural is like I wish that this movie had existed when I was a kid, But yeah, true, but I'm glad it exists when I'm an adult. It's great, totally. I was just talking about this with a shout out to my Spanish tutor Adriana, who I have a whole segment from her because she was born and raised and grew up and lived most of her life in Mexico, and I

wanted to get her thoughts on it. So she shared a lot of insight that all I will share later. But um, I was saying, like I didn't learn about Dia delusmortos until I mean, I took Spanish in high school and learned about it then. But you know, I spent so many years like not knowing so much about so many cultures because well, one, the American education system did not expose me too much of anything, and to all the movies I was exposed to were just about

white people, white Americans. So I was like, yeah, I really wish I had this movie growing up two just for the sake of like I could have learned a thing. But same, I love this movie. I saw it in theaters I think twice. I've seen it several times since then. This movie makes me cry, cry cry. I teach it

in my screenwriting classes. Also, Like there's a segment I do in world building that I have my students like read a trunk of the script and then we watch that and like see how it translates from the page to the screen, and there's just like I love this movie, so I'm excited to talk about it. Um, should we get into the recap and just go from there? Yeah, let's do it as per usual. Let's do it. I was just saying, how I think this is the longest

recap I've ever written on the show. Can't wait, just because like, this story is so good and it's like complicated, but not in a way that it's like overwhelming or like confusing or anything like that. It's just like so rich and there's just so much detail I didn't want to leave out, so bear with me. But um, here we go. So we get some backstory about the rivera family where long ago there was a musician who had a wife and a daughter, and one day the man

left with his guitar and never returned. So the mother, the woman, banished all music from her life became a shoemaker, which she passed down to several generations of her family. That woman was Miguel's great great grandmother, Emelda, and her daughter is Miguel's great grandma Coco. And then Miguel's family tells this story every year on El Dia de los Mortos, so then we meet Miguel. He's a young twelve year

old boy in Mexico. The rest of his family, you know, his mom, his dad, aunt and uncles, his grandma, and his great grandma Coco. We meet them on screen. They are all still very anti music. But Miguel has a secret. He loves music. He plays the guitar. He worships Ernesto de la Cruz, who was a famous musician back in the day. And Miguel loves his song entitled Remember Me Secretly Loving Music has to be like the sweetest rebellion ever. It's such a fascinating like when as writers, I'm like

always thinking of like it's such a fascinating plot. You know, You're like, how are we going to make a movie about this holiday? And like what can we do? And let's have his whole family hate music, but he loves it. It's such a good It's like such a classic Disney setup. It feels like of like know this then the you know, like the Little Mermaid, like all she wants to do is go to the shore, and her whole family is like, no,

that's an abomination. I wrote that down to where it felt like I mean and obviously like the stories are very different. But like when appolita Um smashes Miguel's guitar spoiler alert, I was like, well, King Triton ruining the garrotto. It's like same, same, devastating, like how could you? I thought I could trust you energy. So that night, there's a music talent competition for Dia de los Mortos in Miguel's town's plaza and Miguel wants to sign up, but

his family is like no way. But then Miguel discovers from a photograph on his family's o frienda that his great great grandfather was Ernesto de la Cruz. His face has been torn off of the photo, but Miguel recognizes his famous guitar, so he decides to seize his moment and enter the talent competition. But his grandma finds out what he's doing and he's that's the scene where she

smashes his guitar. So then Miguel goes to de la Cruz's mausoleum to borrow the guitar there, but when he strums on the guitar, it transports him from his living state to a kind of like apparition in which he cannot be seen by the living, but can be seen by all of the dead people who have crossed over

to the Land of the living for Diadels mortals. This sequence is so beautiful and well done, Like it's one of there are so many amazingly animated scenes in this movie, but the one where it's so seamless and it's I feel like it also like you you're so put into Miguel's shoes of like it's a little jarring and confusing, and then you realize what's going on, and uh, that sequence is just like so well paced and animated. I

love it absolutely so. Then he runs into his dead ancestors, including his Tia Rosita, Tia Victoria, Papa Julio, TiO Oscar, or in TiO Philippe, who bring him across the bridge to the Land of the Dead, which is this huge, beautiful city where everyone's dead family and ancestors live. It's

also full of alabris, which are spirit animals. And then they go through this like customs type thing where Miguel sees a dead skeleton guy trying to cross into the Land of the living, but he can't because his photo isn't on anyone's a frienda. So then the family finds Mama Emelda, who couldn't cross over to the Land of the Living because Miguel had taken her photo off of

his family's a FRIENDA. Then Miguel learns that he needs his family's blessing to be able to cross back over to the Land of the living, but he has to do so by sunrise or else he will turn into a skeleton and be stuck in the Land of the dead forever. More. Little Mermaid vines, yeah, yeah, you have

three days, says Ursula. Yeah. So then Mama Emelda gives Miguel her blessing to return home, but with the condition that he never play music again, since she was like the original like no music lady, she invented the foot loose rules to the family exactly, but the second Miguel is transported back, he picks up de la Cruz's guitar and is immediately transported back to the Land of the

Dead because he broke his promise. So then Miguel gets the idea to get his blessing from Ernesto de la Cruz since they're related, so that Miguel can return home and still play music. So Miguel sneaks away from his family and sets off with a street dog named Dante, who had also crossed over to the land of the dead. Because dogs are just transient beings who can cross dimensions. I think that that is like a tradition that's like rooted in real mythology too, of like dogs as yeah,

like intermediaries between the living and the dead. Mm So, then Miguel sets off to find Ernesto de la Cruz. So Miguel comes across that guy who saw at the customs section who he overhears saying that he knows de la Cruz. This is Hector, voiced by Gael Garcia. Brnow, by the way, who is my number one celebrity crush? Is it? Yes? I don't see you tweeting about him enough? Then, well are you trying to keep it on the I feel like anytime someone has a celebrity crush, like I know,

I just do you all know who mine is? Tell us? Oh, I thought you were going to say yes, of course. I feel like when you say it, I'm like, wait, I've seen those tweets. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I feel like this is in line with this. It's Selmahiac. Oh yeah, I feel like I've tweeted yeah about her. I try to be chill though, because I feel like, not that we all know each other, but we're kind of like, I don't know, like adjacent. There's six degrees element. Yeah,

yeah for sure. And I know someone I think I haven't told. I've told this story before another podcast, but I guess not on this one. But I like the New Bachelorette was like thirty five or something shocking horrible old, and somebody tweeted that essentially like oh she's thirty five, and I said, some hikes fifty five and I would ruin my life for her. And I didn't tag her because again, like we're professional, we all work in this business together. And somebody sent it to her though, because

she screamshot it. She put it on Instagram, not just on Twitter, and like found me and tagged me and was like thank you. Danny was like, I was like, I would ruin my life for her, and she was like, thank you, Danny. I'm like, I'm going to do this for Gail because I don't, like, I don't tweet about really anything, um except for Paddington. That's true. That's true, but I mean, like, I don't like when people tag that.

I just think it's and well, it's especially we were just because we we were like you know a lot of us work on different shows and movies and like, you know whatever, Like that's very awkward and I never wanted to be like weird, so I don't ever tag them. But if you found it on your own, that's not my fault. That's very good. I mean, this ship have I mean not to shout it out once an episode, but Alfred Molina was on the podcast. These things do happen,

I know, Selman, I will have our moment our. Yeah, you gotta start thirst tweeting more. I love. I love when a thirst tweet leads to something beautiful. That's nice. Alright, Well this is my cue to send out more thirst tweets. I don't know what's stopped. The stakes are low. I'm barely in the industry, so I don't even have to worry about like professionalism here. So um, okay, where were we? So we see Hector again and he and Miguel make

a deal. If Hector helps Miguel find de la Cruz, then Miguel will put up Hector's photo On and a friend to when he returns to the Land of the Living, so that Hector can cross over and see his family, which he hasn't been able to do for quite some time. Miguel learns that De la Cruz is hosting a very exclusive party that night, and that the winner of this talent competition that's happening gets to play at this exclusive party, So Miguel and Hector set off to find a guitar.

This is also the scene where Miguel meets Freda Carlo and has a fun interaction with her. Then Hector takes Miguel to a place where dead people who don't have families or people to visit in the Land of the Living, they all kind of have formed this community, and we learned that if enough time passes, these kind of forgotten people will fade away and eventually disappear forever and have their what they call it a final death, which is

illustrated through like the saddest scene ever committed. So we see this with this guy Chon who's voiced by Edward James almost by the way, So Hector borrows a guitar from him. He is fading and then we see him like die his final death. We also learn in this scene that Hector was a former musician and that Hector is also fading because his family in the Land of the Living is forgetting him. The plant and payoff of this movie is so good, like the screenwriting is absolutely incredible.

So with the guitar, they head to this talent competition and Miguel performs, but Miguel's skeleton family, who has been chasing after him this whole time, shows up to this show, and this is where Hector learns that Miguel does have other family who could give their blessing and send him back to the Land of the Living. So he's like, why am I trying to help you find d La Cruz.

So then Miguel runs away but bumps into Mamma Emelda, who reveals that she used to love music, but of course that changed when her husband left, and Miguel is like, you you should understand and support my passion for music, and she's like no, so then he runs away. Miguel

is a very emotionally intelligent kid. I'm like, I don't know if I was firing off ship like that when I was twelve, right, He's great not to be like I was so emotionally intelligent, but like I have, I have like diaries of mine from that time, and I was so angsty and just thought I was like so smart and I don't know, like I just I definitely was very I was like a very emotional twelve year

old for sure. That's great. I was very emotionally. I was just always repressing all of my emotions, which I do to this day very healthily, I think I was. I just had like O c D, like true O c D notebook full of I would write down what everybody was wearing around me at all times because I thought I would die if I didn't do that. And then I would also write about my crushes for four to five hundred pages at that time. My god, so

there was more volume. There wasn't a lot of quality, hilarious, gosh. Anyways, Miguel is is very in touch with his his emotional needs and understands adults better than uh, certainly I ever did for sure. So then we see Miguel sneak into

Ernesto de la Cruz's party. Miguel finds him and tells him that he is de la Cruz's great great grandson, which de La Cruz thinks is awesome, and he is about to give his blessing to Miguel to go back home and be a musician, but just then Hector shows up and reveals that all of de la Cruz's songs were actually Hector's and that Ernesto the Cruise stole them, And then we get this flashback that reveals that the La Cruz poisoned Hector so that he could steal his songs. Twist,

What a what a twist. I remember the first time watching that being like it really gets you, I know. I was just like, wait, this movie is for babies, and I didn't know that was gonna happen. This movies for baby. That's the thing about Pixar movies, though, is that like, yeah, the target audiences children, but they're also like so well written that all ages can. Excuse me, but I have to say on behalf of Brad Bird that the target audience is family. Is everyone? That's yes,

that's true. Sorry, no, I'm sorry, Pixar director Bradbird. It's very adamant that these are not for children. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Bradbird. I'm just a single adults. I don't know what constitutes a family. Okay, Brad Bird, your your statement still doesn't include me somehow. No, I feel like he would think that you were a fan like you. You complete yourself, Jamie, Yeah, you are a family with Bird would feel that way. I am my own family unit.

Please and yeah, exactly, And that's why I feel entitled to watch The Incredibles two whenever I want. Exactly, I'm more of an incredible as one. I'm sorry, but that's that's quite a correct answer. You're right, okay. So then de la Cruz has Hector and Miguel taken away by security and thrown into a cave, where we get another

big reveal that Hector's daughter. The reason he wants to cross back over is Coco a k a. Miguel's great grandmother a k a. Hector, not Ernesto de la Cruz is Miguel's great great grandfather, and Hector wrote the song Remember Me for Coco. Then Mama Emailda shows up with her Alibrique and rescues Miguel and Hector. Hector tells her what happened that you know, he didn't leave her, he was murdered, and she's like, um, yeah, I guess. But I still can't forgive you, but she does want to

help him not be forgotten. I do like that. It kind of like turns into like the last act of a rom com. Once they're once they very unite to where it's like, well, these two kids figure it out. You're kind of like, I don't know, let's see right. Um. So they head back to dela Cruz's place to get Hector's photo back because de la Cruz had stolen it. Um. They find him backstage right before his big concert and

they get back the photo. But then Mama Emelda is like accidentally gets sent to the stage in front of thousands of people, and she has no choice but to sing and perform, and in so doing, she rediscovers her of of music and then is about to give Miguel her blessing free of any conditions. But then de la Cruz shows back up and tries to murder Miguel, but it's all caught on video, so everyone at the show learns that De la Cruz is a fraud and a murderer.

Mama Emelda's Labrique saves Miguel, but Hector's photo is lost, so now Miguel can't put it on the frienda and Hector is dying because Coco is forgetting him, and it's almost sunrise, so the family has to quickly give their blessing and send Miguel back to the land of the living. So now that he's back, Miguel rushes to Mama Coco and tries to get her to remember her Papa Hector.

He starts singing remember Me, which gets Coco to remember, and she starts singing along, and everyone's crying, crying, crying, are balling our eyes out. I remember I was at a screening and there was a mom with like three boys there. I was like, oh man, she must be like a mommy block. I mean, who brings like so many children into it pr screening or whatever. And I just remember the kid being like, Mom, why are you crying? Mom? Why are you crying? Like you know when kids like

don't quite like grasp something. And she was just like full blown, like sniffling in the theater. I remember he kept like pulling on her sleeve like. So Miguel and Mama Coco were singing together, and Miguel's living family is there and sees Miguel playing music, but they see how much Coco responds to it, so they're like, oh, wow, maybe music is actually a good thing. And then Coco takes out her photo of her papa and it is confirmed that it is Hector. So then we cut to

a year later. The next day de Losmortos, the photo of Emelda and Hector is on the al frienda, as is Coco's. Apparently she had passed away at some point during the last year. In the Land of the Dead, Emelda, Hector, and Coco are all united. They cross over and visit their family. In the Land of the Living. Micguil is playing music for his family. Everyone's happy, everyone's together. I'm crying more. And the movie is over. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we will come

back to discuss and we're back. Where shall we begin. There's there's so much to talk about here. Yeah, Danny, do you have any place you want to kind of

jump off from? No. I just wanted to make a note that my favorite part of this movie is when Coco is reunited with her parents and she's still old, and it's like so sweet because they just like, oh, that's our Coco, and they like pick her up and it's just like It's funny because you never think of like your kids being older than you, I guess or whatever. And that's just like how she was when she went

to the afterlife. And it was just really really sweet for them to just like love her even like that, like to just like unconditional love. It was I just wanted that noted that that was my favorite part. Of course. Yeah, I loved that too. Every part of this movie just like tugs at my heart strings. Also, his dad, I actually tweeted and I, okay, so Miguel's dad, there's there's like a picture, I'll send it to y'all. He like

has his arms wrapped around Miguel's mom. And I did that picture, and then I did a picture of Gomez loving on more Tisha, and I tweeted and I said, God, I see what you have done for others. So if you could please, I would love I mean, if not Selma, hi, I would love a Latino king to like love on me. I think I deserve to be adored and loved and like, please send me my Latino king. Thank you. Uh. They're

his parents are very very sweet. I mean, it's like this movie is so stacked with characters that it's like I didn't like Sure, I guess I wish that we knew Miguel's parents a little better. But I also feel like this movie takes given, you know, whatever the restrictions of the time they have. I like that the older characters are prioritized, and like the older women in particular are prioritized in this movie, where you know, we get to see a kid who lives in a multi generational home.

You don't get that a lot in children's media at all. You're usually stuck in the same, you know, upper middle class, white suburb. But Miguel lives in a multi generational home. And then we focus mostly on his grandmother is his Abulita, and then also on Coco, who is It seems, you know, she's her memory is not all there, and she needs help and her daughter helps her a lot. But I just I loved that, given all the characters this movie could have focused on, they prioritize the older matriarchs of

of the family along with Mama. Emaileda to like that, like oncee Miguel crosses over to the Land of the Dead, like she's very clearly like the matriarch, She's in charge, She's making all of the family decisions. Also Coco like, because Latina's don't age the same as everyone else, she has to be at least five hundred for her to have all those wrinkles. I'm like, Okay, she's been around for she's at least five hundred years old. Well, and we'll we'll get into this. I mean, I love this

movie so much. Most of the problems or like, most of the things that any grapes I have, are with Disney's conduct surrounding the movie, which we'll get into. I'm very curious what I'll so to get into what you're u because I'm Chicana, so I grew up here in the States, and so like, I'm very curious about people who actually were born and raised in Mexico who how they came out there first, actually before it dropped here, they got it a little bit earlier than we did.

So I'm very curious because it, you know, took place there in Mexico. And so I always consider us like kind of in the in between where I wrote about this and the Good Immigrant this book, where I wrote an essay in it where it kind of feels like we definitely don't fit in here in the in the US, but we're also kind of removed from growing up in Mexico, so it kind of it kind of just feels like we're in this weird in between space. So I'm very curious about people who who grew up there, how how

they resonated with with this portrayal. Sure well, let me share what Adriana Ortega, my Spanish tutor, and Adriana hi wonderful person all around, she had had this to say. As a Mexican born and raised in Mexico, I can say Coco is considered a Mexican movie. Since it came out, we started seeing Coco Pinata's labriquets and crafts, and then Adriana included a bunch of photos of like Coco guitars and costumes and just like things sold in Mexico from

the movie. She says, the mariachi's at parties started playing the songs from the soundtrack as if they existed forever. She also included a YouTube link with a medley of traditional Mexican songs with Poco Loco um, which is one of the songs that Miguel plays in the movie. Um will share a link to that and people in general We're happy to see Mexico represented not as a place of crime and poverty, but as a source of culture

and traditions interesting to the world. I'm personally obsessed with the movie, and I can't watch it without sobbing like a baby, no matter how many times I've watched it before. The movie is so well done that even little details like the way the town where the characters live looks and feels and the family dynamics show that clearly Mexicans were involved in the project. A clear example is the way all family decisions have to be approved by the matriarch.

I lived it when my grandma was alive, and she didn't approve of something. Doing that thing was an act of rebellion. On the other side, as someone who works with people in Mexico who lived undocumented in the United States, I must point out what I don't like about Coco. The way transit between the world of the living and the dead resembles the Department of Homeland Security controls for undocumented people and even for people with documents entering the

US is a nightmare. Every Mexican that has ever come to the US has a horror story about Homeland Security. Depending on their privilege, the color of their skin and their papers. Those stories are different, but many times they're

at least unpleasant. I think the creators of Coco could have found way to create conflict for the character of Hector without implying that the Department of Homeland Security and similar controls are a quote necessary evil instead of a very deliberate evil created to discriminate against foreigners, especially if they're brown. Um. And then when I spoke with Adriana today, Um, she just had a couple other insights, saying that she only watches the movie in Spanish with like the Spanish dub,

which she says is like really really good. Not all movies dubbed in Spanish are well done as far as the dubbing, but she said the Cocoa one is very very good. The actors and just like people that they hired to do the dub are like just this slate of like all star actors, iconic people in general from Mexican culture. She was really impressed with the Spanish dub.

And then finally she said that um so el Dia Delersmortos is more commonly celebrated in southern Mexico, especially in the state of Mito Kan in Mexico, and Miguel's village was inspired by a town called pats Quaro, So this is kind of just like where Dia de los Mortos was more commonly celebrated in Mexico until this movie came out.

In different other parts of Mexico, it was not a super important holiday, but Adriana said that after this movie, the holiday grew in popularity pretty significantly around all of Mexico where it is now like because because of this movie, like art influencing culture kind of thing, the holiday is

much more widely celebrated throughout the country. So all that's cool, I know, right, It is interesting because I feel like we've at least here in um southern California, and there's always been like a big celebration at least since I've lived here that we have here in l A. And so that's fascinating. Though. I also figured that the cast I think a lot of the castes overlap because they purposely had people who could speak Spanish and sing in Spanish as the leads. So I feel like that's probably

wise because they're great actors. They were doing both the English version and the Spanish version for sure. Yeah. Um, Coco is the first motion picture with a nine figure budget, which is the budget of this movie is humongous, but it also grossed way more money. I mean it's like, I feel like this is kind of on par for Pixar movie budgets too. Well, it took them like six years to make this. Yeah. So it's the first motion picture with a nine figure budget to feature and all

Latino like major cast. Um so, the principal cast of even the English language version of the movie is all Latino Latin X Latin. A. Maybe there's a conversation to be had here about what's the US language to you? Absolutely not, Kalen, absolutely not. It's a lose lose situation. I'm like, I don't even discuss it on podcasts anymore. I just tweeted and I said, like, because you know,

it was our Heritage Month. I don't know when this is dropping, um, but I just was like happy whatever term that people are going to just obsess over instead of paying attention to my accomplishments Heritage month, because this whole month is about like propping us up and like, Wow, look at all this stuff that we're doing. Look all the stuff that I'm doing in this community, in this industry, and it's just like, but you're just going to spend the whole time arguing about like which term to use

under my Twitter. So I was like, we just started, like, actually, a bunch of us writers just started to you just say Heritage month, like we didn't even label anything. And I remember people tweeting like, so we're just saying heritage month, like we won't even say the word, and I'm like, I don't know, it's just not worth it. Sure, this is also a joke. I don't please, do not write, please like totally leave Danny a lot. Yeah, we don't

have to get into it. Just I guess just to say that, like where aware of the different options for the language to use, there doesn't seem to be much agreement on what is like the preferred language, so I might just kind of switch back and forth between a couple of different things. For sure, I switch back and forth between all of them. And I think the one thing that I'll say, anyone who follows me knows that,

like it's so important to be inclusive. So at the end of the day, I truly do not care what term we if we even make up a whole word that doesn't even that's not even a word that we've heard yet. Um, as long as people feel included, especially the most vulnerable people in our community feel because I I say this all the time, but Latina, I am a Latina and like that's I've always been represented by that term, and so I've never had to wonder what it was like to to not be represented. And so

that's what I care about. But I also altern nate between all of our terms often. Sure, totally. Yeah, So just again shout out to Adriana for sharing her wonderful insights. Thank you so much to Adriana. She's been such a wonderful person and bechtelcast listener over the years. Um, she's the greatest. And I she pointed out, I think one of the few repeated criticisms of this movie that I mean, maybe it's just best to kind of get through the criticisms at the top of the episode and then get

into what we really loved about the movie. Um, but what she mentioned about the use of the Department of Homeland Security metaphor as a way to cross between realms seemed to be that was a criticism that I saw in a bunch of places. There was a really good essay published in The Mary Sue when this movie first

came out by Carla Tamis that. I mean she opens the essay by saying that that just vision triggered her as she was watching the movie and sent her back to an experience she had with her mother when crossing into the US when she was a kid, and um,

it does seem to I don't know. I mean, I'm curious to know what everyone thinks, because that was like one of the only things that like stuck out to me as I don't know, like I maybe understand the impulse to reference that in the movie, but I don't like how it's like, if you're going to make that decision creatively, I feel like it really needs to bear out in a productive way, and for especially for a children's movie, in an optimistic way. It's a Disney movie.

But I was kind of surprised that by the end of the movie that system was very much upheld to the point where Hector goes through customs. I don't know, I just feel like there wasn't a lot of criticism

on that system. It was just like, well, this is the way things are, and the movie does take a in a way that I really appreciated and thought was like a very thoughtful, I don't know, like pixar deep approach to the subject of showing that the way things are done does other and it does marginalize people in the world of the Dead as well, where the people who are slowly being forgotten they live. They're kind of

the underclass of this world. And by the end it's like Miguel's family has managed to navigate that system in a way and so the individuals are doing okay, but that system is still upheld in a way that feels like unusual for even like Pixar movies, where there was a there's a YouTube essay I watched about it, which you know are very hit or miss, but just even in the world of Pixar, like they are all about systems and then subverting the systems by the end of

the movie, where you're like, you have whatever monsters incorporated stay with the system in that movie is we scare kids and turn it into energy. But through the character's journey they realize this is a flawed system. We need to change it to be a more you know, societally positive, less bad system and then it turns into like Billy Crystal does bad stand up at you, and then that turns into energy, like so much more efficient energy. Yeah right,

but it's like that doesn't happen in Cocoa. The system doesn't. The characters go through incredibly nuanced arcs and the family goes through this huge journey, but the system is upheld in a way that is, you know, unfortunately probably true to life. But it doesn't feel like a Pixar movie. I don't know what, what did everyone think about that?

To me, it feels especially weird to include in a movie that showcases Mexican culture so well by most of the accounts that I've read, to show that system that kind of like border control system in a movie about a community where that system so largely harmfully affects that community,

it felt like a strange choice to me. Yeah, you know, I would be curious to hear how Adrian Molina, who co wrote and co directed this, who is Latino his thoughts on it, because you know, kind of, like you said, like I'm not as a storyteller and as as you know, people who use things from our background, like I'm not against using something that is harmful, evil whatever, Like those elements do exist in stories, and they you know for a reason, like he like you said, like he couldn't

get through, we couldn't get over, and that was harmful, you know, and so that was saying something. However, I understand what you're saying in the end is like that they upheld that as opposed to like destroying that. So but for me, though, as as a storyteller, I'm never like, I'm not going to show this because this is triggering or this is upsetting. It's like it is triggering and up upsetting, and like I think sometimes that is included

unfortunately in our stories is things like that. And sometimes you know, the audience which is this is you know, this is a Disney movie, so it's going to a lot of people, but for for other audiences need to see that sometimes. So I'm never like, don't ever show this. But I'm not sure why other than it was they needed a way for him to be policed saying this in quotes, like in some way to be to not be able to to to be stopped, you know, from

some some type of security, some type of whatever. So I don't know the conversations that happened in that room, and I'd be very curious to hear how Adrian who did work on it, who did write this or co wrote this with Lee Anchorage, um, how he he felt and like his thoughts behind it, because I don't ever want to discredit other Latinos and they're you know, they're they're wise, and I don't I don't ever want to censor any of us from what we feel we wanted

to add or needed to add. And I don't know if in the end it also all of us being writers, I know that we know that you pitch stuff and you're like, this is how I wanted to be and then that's not always how it comes out. Never. Yeah, writing on TV shows like it's so funny seeing people tweet and they'll be watching a Netflix show and this is my second Netflix show that I've written on now that I'm writing on now, and people will be like, why didn't they do this? Why didn't I don't understand

why wouldn't you? And I'm like, I can guarantee you if there were ten writers, ten talented writers in that room, they probably did. They probably brought that up. They probably did say hey, let's not do this or hey, like you know they're gonna say why don't you do this? And then you don't always have the final say so, so I will just also say that as well. It's like and you and you know that, like especially like these whatever figure budget movies are noted and workshopped probably

within an inch of their very lives. Yeah, I mean I would, yeah, I would be curious to know what those conversations were. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, because it's I think you're totally right where it's like there's nothing wrong and it does feel very like Pixar house style to reference real world issues in children's stories, like that's something that they're really good at. I just yeah, I would just be curious about the conversations were about,

like why it landed the way it did. I don't know. Um, let's take another quick break and then we'll come back for a more discussion and we're we're back. I just want to reference I think the other well. I feel like one of the defining controversies of this movie took place I think almost four years before the movie actually came out, because Danny, as you were saying, this movie was in production for seven years. Lee Unkrich, who is a white director, pitched it in The story changed a lot.

He brought in Adrian Molina, who had worked as I believe an editor in Pixar Movies, who is now on the senior creative team. And this movie was being developed for a very very long time in there was something that I remember this happening, but I just hadn't thought about it in years. But there was a I would say a very Disney scandal where I think that at one point Dia de los Morito's was the working title for this movie and Disney was attempting to trademark that

phrase in two US. No one was happy about this, Like everyone was like, uh, sorry, what the fuck? So when that scandal bro there were uh I mean, there were a number of Mexican people, of Mexican American people who are all like, you cannot do that. That's that's

so deeply fucked up. And that seemed to be kind of a turning point in the production of this movie, where I mean, whatever, this this is too dense a topic for a single podcast episode, but Disney has been appropriating and misrepresenting cultures for almost a century now, It's

entire run. Yeah, then and you know, fumbling it almost every single time, and and it didn't seem like until when this very obvious like no, you're not going to get away with trademarking, you know, Di del Smuertos, that the production then really ramped up and began to include more Mexican and Mexican American artists and creatives in the project.

Where it's I feel like that it's so often that it does feel like people are screaming into avoid online, which sometimes we are, but in this case, there there was like an actual discernible change that took place in the production of this movie because Disney tried to Disney and people weren't having it, And by all accounts, the result of that was hiring a number of Mexican and Mexican American creatives to work on the movie, which then

came out four years later. But even in some of the very positive reviews of this movie, that scandal was referenced because it's just you know, so egregious. Yeah. One of those was a Mexican American editorial cartoonist, Lalo Alcorrez. What a poster. Definitely definitely know him. He I want to share a quote about this um you know, Disney trying to commercialize and appropriate the name of a holiday.

He says, quote, it's just frustrating because I've spoken to some of these companies begging them to have more people of color in the legal department, behind the camera and green lighting projects, but they won't listen and not just tokens. It's got to be real. So he, you know, was very outspoken about meaningfully including people in these important creative and development decisions and just you know, any decisions that

are made as far as putting a movie together. Posts these remarks, he was then hired as one of the consultants on this movie, along with Octavio Solis who's a playwright, and Marcella Davison Aveliz, who is the former CEO of

the Mexican Heritage Core. So it's this group of people, along with the co director and co writer Adrian Molina, who were the people who seemed to be providing a lot of the cultural consultation that allowed for the movie to feel as authentic and for the representation as far as the culture and the people in the movie, for

that representation to feel responsible and respectful. Because despite these consultants um a lot of the people who are making major creative decisions behind the movie are still non Mexican white people. Yeah, I was gonna say, it's it's interesting like I feel, you know, I feel in the past decade and I've gotten to work with Disney, you know, like I've I've you know, obviously was in a Disney movie, I've hosted with Disney. I feel like they've really taken

good care of me. They also it's wild. I mean, you all follow me on Twitter. I say whatever the funk I want to at all times, and they're still like, what do you want to host this a lad in press conference with all the Disney princesses. And I'm like, sure, I'm not going to change the way. You know, I'm

not gonna ever censor myself. Um, I'm always kid friendly when I'm like doing stuff with them, but like on my personal page, you know, I mean to me, I'm like, if Sarah Silverman can say whatever she wants, then like I should be able to as well. And so I have actually gotten to see that change, like I have. One of the people who worked with me on Ralph, Josie Trinidad. She was the lead storyboard artist and she also worked on his Utopia. She is now getting to

direct her own. They have a slate of directors of color who are now directing their own films. Another one that I know is Carlo Slope's Astrada, who did Ryan the Last Dragon. And so like the industry as a whole, the industry as a whole is not anywhere near where

it needs to be. I think, you know, we were having this conversation off air, but I still feel like, you know, we're very much in these boxes where Um, for me, the stuff that is easiest for me to get green lit is like this this idea of this like one big happy Latino family, Like we're all just one big happy family. That's like easy for white people

to digest. You know, we don't get to play sci fi as much and fantasy as much and like, which this is to some extent like definitely, Um, but I just feel like as a whole, we don't get to play around as much as a lot of other white storytellers. Um,

because I want to play in horror. I want to play, and you know, I don't want anything to have to do with like I'm not even that close with a lot of members of my family you know, and like I also want to play in like queer stories and what it's like to come out and like have to have to have find your family, like found family, Like those are kind of stories that I want, I want to tell. This is all to say, I do see

it changing. I see on Disney Plus with like um Diary of of a Future President, Like, I definitely do see more of us, more representation, more of us getting to tell our own stories, which I think is the most important. Not to have wallpaper, which I still feel like is a lot of a lot of places, and not saying that they don't do that, but um, just in the past decade, I have gotten to witness that, and so I'm hoping that that continues, you know, I'm

hoping that you know, this also came out. What year did this? Did Coco come out? The next year we had Black Panther, And it was like, you know, allowing like the reason why it feels so authentic is, you know, to some extent, like you said, like having people like Lolo or having people like Ryan Coogler, like getting to be involved in these projects so so that it it

doesn't feel like wallpaper. I still feel all studios have have a ways to go, but I'm hoping that this also with the numbers with shung Chi like blew the numbers out of the water. No one I don't think was expecting to do that well allows us Unfortunately it is we're in this capitalistic society. But it makes people go, oh,

we can make money telling stories with people of color. Wow, Okay, And unfortunately that you know sounds cynical, but like that's how our industry works, right, And so having the success of Coco, having the success of Black Panther, having the success of Shuan Chi and Ryan and these other ones, is allows for more of us to get into the

door and be able to tell these stories. And so I'm glad that they have the slate of POC directors coming up that are that are getting to because when you see a lot of the quotes from director Lee unk Rich, who's this like, you know, Pixar Legacy guy, he either director or co directed Toy Story two and three,

Monsters inc. Finding Nemo. He you know, was talking about developing and directing Coco and how he has how he had all this anxiety about making the film because he's like, you know, what we're taking on this real culture and the fact that I'm not Mexican or Latino myself. I felt this enormous responsibility on my shoulders to do it right. And it's like, well, I'm glad you feel that responsible, but can you like step back and be like, hey, am I the person? Am I the best person to

be directing this movie? It does feel kind of I don't know, I mean, it's it's Moanna and Coco came out back to back years. Mohanna came out sixteen, Coco came out seventeen, and it does feel like this kind of like half step middle thing production wise, where it's like on Moana there were a lot of consultants brought on, but there's still these like legacy white directors and composers

at the top of the project. And I think that that was improved upon in Coco because Adrian Molina clearly had such like I really enjoyed watching his press junket interviews for this movie, and like he just I don't know, it's I would I I wish he had been just you know, credited as a director, because it just seemed like he had more influence on the story just watching his interviews next to the young Witches whatever. I don't know.

This is animation at a very high level, but it does seem like that thing where it's you know, there's a they had a um I wish I had his name, but they had a Mexican music consultant consulting the white composer. But ultimately the white composer gets the credit and you have to imagine a hell of a lot more money for for being consulted on on how to properly represent Mexican music. So it's like this in between place that

like you were just describing Danny. Fortunately, seems like this company and a lot of companies are working their way out of of like no actually having you know, experience helps, but like having a white guy at the top of every project is going to disservice a lot of projects, and it's you know, like it's it's getting in the way and it's holding back creative freedom and resources, and like you're saying, like capital from margin allies people who

will do a better job. So those elements are definitely present in this movie. But it is nice that I mean, it's it's less than five years later, and that already does seem like it is indeed process of changing. Like you're saying, yeah, I don't even know if now where we're at one, like if you could do that. I don't know if they are. I haven't looked at their slate, but I don't even think that there are other their

live action that I just named. You know, shan Chi had an Asian director, and Black Panther had a black director, and like that. Also we also have Captain Marvel has a black director, which is you know, the Captain Marvel two, which is very important. We should not be directing just our own stories, yes, please, we should be directing our stories, but also we can direct your stories too, because we grew up that is a lens through which all media

has been told since the inception of media. So it's actually so much easier for us to write white characters because that's all of the shows, you know, the majority of television and film totally, where whereas it doesn't work the other way around. So what I'm saying is like that already feels like it's changing in the last couple

of years, So I am hopeful. I don't know if they're doing I've heard so much about like a Coco too, but that was like reference and I don't know if it's like super under wraps or like, I have no it was like announced I felt at some point, or it was like leaked and then it disappeared. I just assume everything gets it too now, even though it's like I don't know Coco does. Like it's just the writing is so good that it's like I guess that you know.

It's not like they left any hanging threads, but they also created this incredible universe that anyone would be happy to go back to. So I don't I hope, I hope? So um. I also, was this the Was this the project that got Robert Lopez and Kristin Anderson Lopez their egot? Like? When when did they effectively? He got there? There the songwriting and composing married couple that wrote Remember Me, and

they wrote all of the Frozen songs. They're like, and I think that they started with Avenue Q. Is that right? I'm not sure. Yeah, the Book of Mormon and Avenue Q. I'm fans of theirs, but I think that this might have been the project where they formally got their egot because most egots are musicians and composers. Because so as we learned on that really old episode of which I don't know, but I do know that this that Remember Me won the Oscar for Best Original Song, so it's

very possible. UM. I wanted to speak a little bit to co director Adrian Molino's involvement in the filmmaking where he started out in on the projects in Reception as a story artist. Um, he would like submit notes throughout that process and the people writing the script and like developing the story because this movie is I think four story by credits. They would hit roadblocks with the narrative.

So at one point Adrian Malina started submitting screenplay pages just basically saying like, let me just take a crack at this. You don't you don't have to read it if you don't want to. Lee Unchorage, but I thought I'd take a stab, and then he thought like Lee Anchorage thought they were great. So then he asked Adrian to come on board as a screenwriter and he said he found himself relying more and more on Adrian's input, so eventually had him come on board as a co

director as well. So he didn't even start out as like a co screenwriter and co director. It was just like his insight and his kind of continued and increasing involvement is what got him to be brought on and

this greater capacity. For example, it was his idea. So the other writers were trying to figure out the mechanics of Miguel being in the land of the dead and like what he would need to do to get back to the land of the living, And it was Adrian Milina who contributed the idea that Miguel would need his family's blessing to return home, because that came from something very personal in his own life, where you know, like when he went to college, his parents offered their blessing,

which is something that he like hadn't expected them to do based on, I think what he wanted to study or something. But he's like, yeah, let's what about this being an element of the story. And according to Unchorach, that part of the story quote ended up being really central and thematically on point. It helped solve some problems we've been having, and that is like a a crucial

part of the story. So it just like goes to show when you have people who understand the culture and know what they're talking about and bring them on your story is just have like a pack of white guys fumbling around in the dark, which sounds like we're the

was the early production of this movie. In fact, Lee Unkridge also said that in an early draft of this script, the character of Miguel was going to be a Mexican American kid who would have and I think the movie would have been set in the US, and he was dealing with the death of his mother, So it was still going to revolve around Dia de lo Smuertos, and Lee Anchorage says, quote our first stab, but the story reflected the fact that none of us at the time

were from Mexico, so it made sense to tell it from an outside perspective because I knew we were going to have to teach an audience about the traditions and about Mexico, and that seemed like a logical way to do it initially. Uh and quote so it's like, okay, well, well, I would say I am kind of like impressed, isn't the word, because it's like you can't really hand it

to anyone in this situation. But I feel like it is kind of rare to hear a white director publicly vocalize it and not just be like oh yeah, but totally. And I googled and I went to the library, and like I figured it out. Like I feel like that's

normally more what you get. And I feel like I bring up the quote where Robert Egger says he went to the library and that's why he understands indigenous American culture, Like I feel like you get a lot of that, and uh, I guess like it still feels like it should just be Adrian Molina's movie, and that it is, but you know, at least the Uncher just like, yeah, I kind of didn't know what I was doing. But did I take the directing credit? Did I take the money? I shared it? I had one more. I feel like

we haven't even started talking about this story yet. Uh, but there was one more criticism I just wanted to bring up because it's something I saw in several different places, and that was um and again in that essay in the Marys Sue, it came up and um, the writer, Oh my gosh, I have so many taps. Okay. Carla tamise about how there's only one shade of brown in the movie in terms of skin tone, and how that was something that stuck out to her as just a

frustration and a disappointment, and uh. Conversation that I think is had all the time and yet rarely taken action upon in projects is colorism and the fact that there are many shades of brown, and also there are white people that live in Mexico like there. So I just want to quote from her piece because she does it

better than I ever could. Obviously. Um, so she says, quote, I'm not naive enough to have expected a fair representation of what Mexican people can and do look like, but wow, it was still surprisingly disappointing to find that picks are found one shade of brown and really committed to it. Like any colonized land united under a flag that was imposed by settlers and voyagers on its indigenous inhabitants and the slaves who were brought in to help it make

it suitable to white needs. There is no one way that a Mexican can look. I always think of the Sandra Ses Narrows quote from Caromelo. So now we're quoting Sandra's narrows. Um, there are green eyed Mexicans, there are rich blonde Mexicans, the Mexicans with the faces of Arab Chics, the Jewish Mexicans, the big Footed is a German Mexicans,

the leftover French Mexicans, the Chaparrito compact Mexicans. Um. This quote goes on for a while, but all that to say she She concludes by saying that lack of physical diversity on screen is simply an extension of a continued failure of big stage Mexican representation in embracing both our extensive ethnic heritage and our pre colonial history unquote, which is a point of sag in a few different places. And honestly, I mean I felt foolish because I hadn't noticed.

I just wanted to bring that up as well. Yeah, I think, yes, I completely agree, and I feel like, you know, I understand to some extent his his family, you know, being the same color and um like his parents and looking like him. But as far as his village, they are correct, and that there is still colorism both in Latin American countries and in our country, very obviously

amongst Latinos. And I do feel like they took that note with their new movie that they have with them Stephanie Beatrice, because that family seems very um diverse skin color wise and actually being including after Latinos, but that is something that I feel is an afterthought and uh, Miguel's shade, I feel like, is what people think of when they think of Latino, you know, and I've I've said that as well, like when I audition for roles, it's never debated about whether I'm Latina or not, whereas

my Afro Latina friends sometimes they're not even considered. And so that is still a huge problem that we're that we're still dealing with Um that we saw, you know, the conversation surrounding in the Heights. I think that just in media, that has been thought of as the skin color for for Latinos, and it's just not correct that we do come in all shades. And I want to say though that yes, although there are white Latinos like,

I'm more concerned with Afro Latinos being shown. No. I know that she that's what She's not wrong, but I'm just like, yes, but also I personally don't know if I care as much as UM because I just feel white. Then if you are white, you have other things to latch onto. You know, you're you have had other people that look like you and princesses that look like you and and superheroes and people in Star Wars and whatever that that are your skin color, then even if they're

not Latino, they do still have your skin color. And so I'm very concerned with Afro and Indigenous representation of Latinos and just feel like that has not been And I know Jamie is sorry, I know that's not what you're saying. I just wanted to say, or or necessarily what she's saying, but I just wanted to say that, like, I just don't see enough representation and I feel a lot of times like they're they're just not considered, you know, um like in the in the auditions that I get

it just and it's hard. There is no one way to be Latino like that. That it's also like we're kind of we have this term and yet we're so different that it's hard to put us all. It's hard to put us all in this under this term. And so for me, it's so important with everything that I make, that that I actually make. I don't I can't control the shows you know that I write on that I have bosses and it's their show and I'm just a

writer on there. I try to push as much as I can, uh, and I do, but I'm at the end of the day, not the one that's making the final decision, but at least in the things that I make, I feel pretty proud of being able to represent my community.

But I do feel like there needs to be more more of our stories greenlits, so that one singular movie or one singular show doesn't have to represent all of us, because I think that's that's such a burden that white people don't have, and it I just think it's so unfair and hard on uh, Like I think of even Insecure, and I remember people you know, writing as about like, well, this is kind of classes because you're showing this type of class of black people, and I'm like, well, one,

she was also an uber driver for one, but like two, that's such that's such a burden too place of like she needs to represent the wealth of the black community, and I'm like that's just impossible. That's that's not something that is put on white on white creators to represent every single element of their community. And so I literally have lost sleep about this with my own community of like I actually cannot I cannot represent you know, the

full breadth of my community. And even experiences. As we were thinking. As I was thinking, like Lee Ridge took this on and he's not in the community, I was like, I don't even know if I could take on like

Argentinean like representation. I'm like that that's just not that's not my Like, I'm just not in that community, and so like, I don't even know if I would feel And I have had projects come across like that, and I'm like I pass on them because I'm like, that's such a that would be so much time to when it could just go to someone that that's their authentic selve,

their authentic background in truth and culture. And so, but that is all to say that it's like impossible for one single Latino person to represent every single Latino person. And so what the truth is is that more of those stories need to be greenlit. More after Latino creators need to have uh need to be green light, need to be given the funds to make their own stories and shows so that they don't have to feel like they're a side character in somebody else's movie or side

you know, or an afterthought. Right, Yeah, And I want to acknowledge that we've had conversations on this show the demonstrate. I don't want to speak for you, Jamie, but like my misunderstanding that I had for a long time about Latin X Latin A communities and people in which I kind of assumed, oh, all people in that community are

people of color. And we've had conversations about like Latina actresses who are white people of European descent who are still also Latina, but we were referring to them as people of color, and we've you know, had friends and listeners clarify for us, just because someone is Latina doesn't

automatically mean they're also a person of color. And I think the confusion for me at least comes from the colorism and featurism that exists in media and movies and stuff, where white European features are favored and are considered to be more attractive. So a lot of the famous Latin X actors in both the U S and in Latin America are of European descent, and they are not indigenous, and they are not Afro Latino, or if they're mixed,

they tend to have more European features. So again it speaks to the need to have far more representation across the board to fully represent all the communities and subcultures that fall under the Latin umbrella. So this is all something that I didn't have a super clear understanding of at first, and I've had to do a lot of research and reading and talking to people. And again, there are past episodes where our misunderstanding is fully on display.

So I want to hold ourselves accountable for that and to acknowledge that. Yeah, no, I totally. I mean we've we've very much fumbled and it made and I think just like made not uncommon but completely incorrect assumptions in the past on this show. And it's something that's like, yeah, our listeners have have been kind and moments that honestly they didn't need to be about letting us know about about stuff, and and you know, it's conversations that we're

committed to continuing to have. But yeah, I mean, it's it's even in this particular scenario with with cocoa, I was I was like, oh, like, Jamie, how did you not notice that? Like what could because it's like, once it's brought to your attention, you can't un see it.

And I learned about this criticism between you know, whatever viewings for this show, and I don't know, and like you're saying, Danny, it's a completely unreasonable request and an additional pressure put on marginalized creators to represent their entire culture every time they're creatively producing something that is impossible and and setting up people for for failure because it's

not a realistic expectation and of a creator. Yeah, so I mean, the it should just be the answers to have allowed more more people to get to tell their stories and will eventually, I mean, I'm hoping that we

eventually get to that that place. So no single POC creator feels like they have to represent every single element of their or even every single element of their you know, commute like like I was saying in East's cases, like representing all types of different wealth or poverty or like whatever.

I'm like, Oh, she just is kind of making a story about dating as a as a black millennial, you know, but like to to have to like and I totally understand that, and but it's just like it's just something that we don't place on on white on like girls, you know, like that wasn't I mean, I don't know, I didn't watch the show, but is that a commentary

on Ship's Creek. Well, actually I think it did because they were poor and then they got but like at last, so I don't know, Okay, things less like you can name white leads for the next five days. No, but you're totally right, Like, these same burdens are not placed on white creators, largely because there's been so much representation of white people in media that the full spectrum has already been represented. And of course there are groups that

haven't been represented enough or well. And that's you know, obviously, that's what we talk about all the time on the podcast. But even so, a lot of queer stories and stories about disability and stories about women still center white people. So again, this all just continues to speak to the need for a much larger scope of representation of all people, all communities, all identities, all intersections everyone. Yeah, and like behind the camera too, Yes, I was gonna say to

like also just being able to represent both. Like one of my favorite a Filatino characters is Miles Morales, and I feel like a lot of times people forget that he is black and Latino, and I just feel like a lot of times they're a lot of stories don't allow for the full complexity or full depth of of both of those, you know, And so it's it's kind of like one or the other, and that is you can't, um, you can't separate those two. Those are two. That is

his identity, like you can't. You can't like you know, pick one or the other. And so that is his identity in full. And so it just is um allowing more characters. I think too that our a Filatino to have to have all those layers is important. But I think a lot of times people forget and have that not be such a rarity too. Yeah, I wanted to talk a little about the use of Spanish in the movie Coco, where not a ton is spoken and in like the English language version of the movie, Um, but

there is some there. And I wanted to share something from a New York Times piece entitled how Picks Are Made Sure Coco was culturally conscious by Reggie Ugu points out that quote. Throughout the film, several main characters voiced by a nearly all Latino cast that includes Gayle Garcia Brunell, Benjamin Bratt, and the young Anthony Gonzalez as Miguel slip in and out of untranslated Spanish a rarity in commercial

American cinema. And then there's an additional quote from Octavio Solis, who is one of the consultants that was hired on the film, says, quote the original idea was to have the characters speak only in English, with the understanding that they were really speaking in Spanish. But for us, language is binary, and we code switch from English to Spanish seamlessly. End quote. Um, which is just like a feature that I thought was really cool. It gives people watching this

who aren't Spanish speakers exposure to the language. Like I think it just like has all these great benefits that I thought was like cool to include. But I'm interested to hear other perspectives on that as well. Well. I feel like that's how a lot of families, at least here, you know, it's fascinating because it was in Mexico, so obviously it's probably all in you know, Spanish, but like here in the States, I feel like it's that's very common to just kind of switched back and forth between

Spanish and English kind of seamlessly, uh, in conversation. So I like that, and I also just like, you know, hearing Mexican accents with while English speaking, and you know, just teaching even young Latino Like my niece is currently in um in a school where like half of the days in English and then after lunch it's all in Spanish. And so I do love I love the fact that you know that this is a family or four kids, you know, family movie, and so it's teaching young kids,

whether they are of Latino descent or not. Like getting to hear some Spanish and a massive one of the things that actor Hector Navarro, Um, he's a host for Nurdict and down a bunch of other things. We both like wrote each other about the beginning to hear the Disney movie. I mean the Disney music that was at the beginning of the movie with the castle was Mariachi's and like that was a huge deal to us, Like

that that was really important. That meant a lot, and so like even little things like that, to to have these like Disney, you know, American Disney whatever moments, but like from our culture just feels really special. Yeah. Absolutely, Okay, I have one last thing I promised, and then we're

going to talk about the story. I know it's late. Um, the last thing I wanted to to bring up was I was looking back at this movie was extremely well reviewed, like it has like in the nineties, seven critics score on Rotten Tomatoes. Right, this was an extremely well reviewed movie. However,

there was a piece on a website called Rameskla. I had never been on it before, but it's it's a website, grassroots project that documents Latin culture, and they published this article as Coco was coming out, saying like, yeah, everyone's loving Coco, but on the Rotten Tomatoes page there is not one Latin movie reviewer who has reviewed this movie to the point where this site ended up, you know, recruiting and reaching out to a number of I mean because as we've talked about on the Show of a

jillion times, there's no shortage of non white film reviewers. That's just who ordinarily gets the job at the highest level and who ends up on the Rotten Tomatoes page. And it's something that's changing very slowly to the point where it's like it would have been very glaring in to anyone who was looking that there were no Latin

reviewers reviewing this movie. So this website, Ramesque Club put together a number I think it was five or six reviewers who were of Mexican descent to review this movie, and the reviews were still extremely positive. But the I mean the point of everything was, like we've sort of been referencing at different points in this episode, there's a lack of representation at every single level where you know, the average movie viewer isn't thinking, well, who's writing my

movie reviews? But it absolutely makes a difference. So yeah, I just want to point that as well. I mean, I think it's similarly, it's worth noting that Coco is Pixar's nineteenth movie and the first one to feature a minority character in the lead role. Interesting, all the other ones up until that point had been coated toys or peoples or cars. Did you see white coated toys? Yes? I did, w John Goodman coated monsters, Owen Wilson coated cars. I'm sorry, but solely is a monster of color? Um

the color is blue blue. Yeah, I mean, look, it's it's it's hard. We have these conversations so so much internally of like yes, please, like we want to be able to review Cocoa and mo Wana and whatever, But as I continue to say, we we don't want to be your token person that I remember when Mo Wanna came out, I got hit. I'm like, I'm not I'm not even from this car. I'm just the closest thing

you have, you know. And so it's hard because we want to be included in in the conversation, like even with this podcast, Like if you had invited an their

white person, I don't know how it would feel. Probably wouldn't be as important, right, but like, but but you have also had me on what did you say, like Laura Croft tomb Rater and like that family, and so like you're not just like let's get Danny on this Latino one and then we're like not going to let her talk about anything else, and so like that's so I do want to say, yes, we do want to

be included in these but I don't. I just don't think that we want to be boxed in like pigeonholed and that's the only thing we're allowed to talk about.

And I know that you know, our friends during Black History Month, same thing, it's like all of a sudden, their inboxes are full, and like, let's have you on every single panel and to talk about all of this, and then all of a sudden after February, it's like nothing, you know, and so it's it's let us talk about all the things like Laura Croft, tomb Rat It's yeah, which is like, I mean, if if there were less white film reviewers reviewing every single film that comes out,

like that would also rectify that issue of like there's what I mean, this is really getting into weeds, but into of staff writing positions for magazines and like you know, go to film reviews as opposed to the freelance model that I think kind of empowers that kind of tokenizing behavior. True. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about the movie. Yeah, let's let's talk about co Co the story thoughts. I like it. I honestly

thought this was really clever. Yeah. I still like, you know, my writer brain, like I still think this is such a clever way to approach this, like to be like, how are we going to make a film about this really special day? Um? Yeah, I felt like this was very clever and it was. It was very different than Book of Life, like completely different. So it is fascinating. Oh you should, you definitely should. Yeah, And I love Jorges um he has Maya and the Three coming out

on Netflix. Also cried watching that trailer. Also cried. I watched that trailer so many times and cried. Also, something that took him like three years to make this series that's coming out on Netflix. I mean, animation takes so long. But he has a very cool, very unique artistic style that you can't miss. Like I've seen I've seen his work on the side of buildings and I'm like, oh

that's more hey, um, but yeah, check that out. What I'm saying though, is that I love that we can have multiple movies and we should because like, how many Christmas movies are there billion about white people? Yeah? Exactly how many Christmas Lifetime movies do we white people moving in with their parents? Yeah, that live in a nice house, or like reconnecting with their high school love or something. Yeah, I mean whatever, now disrespect to people who but like

what anyways? Yeah, I also something that just I can like, this is a really good movie in so many ways. It's also like a really good Disney movie. I can't remember what like more, but this movie has like Dela Cruz is such a good Disney villain. Like I felt like I hadn't seen like one of my goofy who gives a ship millennial gripes with more recent Disney movies is like, I like when a villain falls off a cliff at the end, I like it, like and I feel like Dela Cruz, who literally I mean he gets

crushed by a bella second time poetic justice. We was like, yeah, like his character. Not only is the writing surrounding his character so strong and everything is so firmly planted, but like when you reach the twist, it is so like rewarding. But on top of that, it felt like this really cool meeting between you know, the more recent Disney quote

unquote villains. I feel like you're encouraged to empathize with them, and then by the end maybe you see them in a different way, which you do a little bit with Dela Cruz, but you still get that kind of satisfying nineties Disney villain where he falls off a cliff and

is double dead. Now, um yeah, I I really enjoyed how his plot line bore out too, and how it affected Miguel of you know, Miguel was kind of being gently encouraged by someone he thought was his relative of like, oh, you know, like it was all worth it, this thing that I did, Like, I would recommend it to everybody, which you get is kind of overly simplistic because everyone's family is different. But I mean, he had me going. I fell for the first time I watched it. I

was like, wow, he's right, no notes, he's great. Yeah, I I too abandoned my family to pursue comedy and I never looked back. I know, I was like, yeah, I guess we all didn't do that. Um, so we're all gonna get crushed by bells, etcetera. Like it's an it's an oversimplification, but I just yeah, I was like, wow, like a Disney villain, I missed them. It was exciting.

One thing I really loved. And even though the main vehicle of this story is Miguel seeking the blessing of a male family member, there's so much emphasis in the movie on something that Adriana was speaking to in terms of like the matriarchs of the family, and how there's multiple women in the movie who are like the authority figures of the household. They're calling the shots. They are revered and respected by the rest of the family, strong

women who Miguel sure butts heads with. But you know, he has an arc in which he does like come to learn to appreciate his family and the love that his family provides for him thanks to the kind of

guidance of these women and his family. And then the women also arc in the sense that they realized maybe they were being a bit too hard on him and a little bit too rigid, and you know again when they see how much music means to him and they see the effect that it has on him, and just like like kind of the larger cultural scope of things, they're like, oh, I was maybe being unreasonable to banish all music for the first I do wish that this is like a very tiny nippet, but I do wish

that we had gotten to see some of the women in this story have a little more fun where it felt like there was with with Hector and with Miguel. I mean, everyone has these very like dramatic arcs, but you get to see Hector and Miguel have fun and have these like moments of levity with their characters and goof off and just have these silly moments. And I wish that for all of the very well developed and strong women in this story, I wish you got to

see them have a little bit of fun. Because it did feel like usually, even though all of the women are I think, you know, very individual characters. I just I don't know. I just wanted to see one of them make a goof have some fun joke, like make a go yeah. I feel like that Mama Melda gets to like embrace her her music background again, she gets

to like have that moment that spotlight. I think the only thing that I would say is that this was kind of the answer to all of the Disney Princess movies, which by the way, I personally appreciate, Like, you know, like every new Disney Princess that would come out, I was that Disney Princess for Halloween. It was like every

new one, I had the costume. And so I think this was their kind of way of like, Okay, well we're going to instead, because like we said, they had Mowanna right before this, right um, and Frozen and like I mean also all the Disney Princesses and snow White.

I think this was one of their ways of like, Okay, now we're going to have a little boy, you know, and like focus on that and his story and like men and like this bonding between a son and this father figure and the fact that he actually has parents and like gets to keep his parents. It's fascinating or a Disney movie. Disney movies famously kill off mothers, and the fact that they are like multiple mother figures. The family grows by the end, there's a new sibling. Yeah,

and he has a new sibling. Yeah. So that's the only thing that I would say that it kind of it kind of felt like, you know, my brothers grew up watching me, kind of experiencing not saying that they didn't have their own ship, because they definitely did, but like, you know, when it came to Disney, it was kind of like my time to shine, and they always watched me. They had to watch my Disney movies. It felt like, uh, and they were always the side whatever characters in the

Disney movies. And so this was kind of like if this had come out when they were little. You know, if I think of like my older brother getting to see himself in Miguel, you know, where is the closest thing I felt I got was like Jasmine, and I you know, letched onto that. But but yeah, so that's what I would say with them with it being you know, more quote unquote boy if we're like gendering this, but like it's I didn't even have an issue with with

the protagonist being a boy or connecting with his male ancestors. Yeah. I just wish that that that the women and the family got to have more fun in the moments that they that they were present because they felt very present. Like, I don't think I would really change too much about like the distribution of screen time really, like it feels like the movie is so well thought out. Yeah, I just know, Jamie. I saw your blog and it said Miguel should have been I did a bunch of math.

I like hot take. No, I wanted to say, I did love. I loved and freaked out and was like very excited about freed To. I have a freed To canvas across from me right now of artwork of her my beautiful by icon who I adore. She also popped up in love Craft. I don't know if you all saw that, but like anytime she pops up in pop culture, I get really excited. Um, so I was really happy and she she kind of got you know, she They definitely showed her a little you know, her wild side.

I guess she Yeah, I mean she definitely got to goof off. Yeah, yeah, her her wild side, but I was so happy that they had her in it. Yeah, I do appreciate to that. Like, the matriarchs are again these kind of like authoritative figures in the family and therefore often stern, but they are also very appropriately soft and compassionate and like loving and affectionate with Miguel especially

and you know, other members of the family. But yeah, it didn't feel I feel like it would have been a like earlier Disney trope or just like media trope in general, to kind of villainize a like matriarchal figure in a family and be like, oh, she's the mom, so she's mean, because we've talked about that trope on a number of episodes. But the these mothers and matriarchs and women in this story have just way more dimension, I feel like than your typical like mother character in

a family movie, especially right. Yeah, any other thoughts about the narrative or the characters. Oh, this was something that I so, I mean, I just I love Hector and

Miguel's relationship. I love I mean the way that Hector's character is written I thought was so just brilliant, The way that he's introduced like I don't I can't really think of many other movies that do this where I feel like Hector is so very introduced to you as a like side character that you don't see it coming that he is one of the most critical players in

the entire story. I just felt like that was so well executed and almost plays on what we know about Disney movies already to be like oh side character at it, and that it ultimately like becomes this story about a father and a daughter by the end where you get

to focus on the connection between Hector and Coco. That is like I cried as thinking about it, but but I think that that is kind of a rare thing in in movies, and by extension, like Coco and Miguel like this, like in the beginning of the movie and in the end of the movie, so like during the exposition, there's all this Miguel's talking about, like, oh, I tell my like Mama, Coco doesn't remember that much, but it's fine.

I talked to her, I tell her everything, And there's like little montage of all the things he says to her and they do like he re enacts like wrestling with her and then at the end that again like the heart wrenching ist scene of any movie ever, where he's trying to get her to remember Hector and singing to her, and then she start singing along and you see how like how much she comes to life, and which is so inherented, Like I don't know anyone who's

ever had an elderly family member who is kind of in and out and in a moment where you when you're like, oh, there they are, you know, and those moments are so precious and beautiful, and it was just like so well done. Yeah. I think that just goes back to like how universal our stories are, you know, like having the story of Miguel like pursuing something that his family doesn't necessarily want him to do. I feel like everyone can relate to that, you know, especially if

you're in the creative arts um. And then like you know, having a falling out with a family member or you know, like identity issues or like you said, even kind of losing um an elderly having an elderly family member like maybe not remember you, or kind of going in and out like these are all universal stories and experiences. So I don't know, like I just keep going back to like allowing us to make our stories. But it's just

like they're they're universal, they're human stories, human stories. Yeah, I'm really saying like groundbreaking things here that nobody has ever said. Y'all really like really like no one's ever thought of thought of these thoughts. I mean, it's really important to just be reminded of these things and talk about them. That's true. It can't be overstated that. I don't think, yeah, today would have anything else. I think that was about I was as I was going through

my nuts. I'm like, I feel like a lot of this was just like I like that. I feel like I'll just like linked to some really good articles I read that. I think it would be like good supplemental things to to read in addition to listening to this episode. Um, we didn't really talk about the and I don't know how much anyone wants to go in to this. If we don't want to go into it, we don't have to, because I would understand not wanting to think about the

Trump administration again. But I think it's just at least worth mentioning the kind of cultural context in which this movie came out in the US at least where again not long into the Trump administration, where Trump was, you know, constantly spewing hateful rhetoric about specifically Mexican people, and you know this need to build a wall, and you know, the ramping up of ice, and for this movie to come out like in the midst of all that and

be so beloved and to represent the culture so respectfully and responsibly and authentically to be a huge box office hit. This movie, by the way, is the highest grossing film of all time in Mexico. So for that to just be a reprieve basically from all of Trump's awfulness, it's just another thing that goes to show how important it is for these stories to be told on a regular,

regular basis. Yeah, I would say, also like our resiliency and like our winning an Academy Award and um Guarrama winning I think like either the year before and then Roma winning and just like our I don't know, like our I was, like our takeover, our just like our ability to resonate with so many people and um in spite of this country's president at the time just wanting to obliterate us, that we still came out on top and we still were dominating, which is a burden you

shouldn't have to bear, of course, but yeah, yes, they were like, I hear that you hate us, and we're going to actually win all of these Academy awards over everybody else. Um during that administration. No, literally, like it was like so many Mexican directors, like one after the other after the other. We're like winning during just as kind of like a middle finger. You know, I don't even want to fuck you. I know I'm allowed to say that on here. I was like, what is another

term for fuck you? As a middle finger to the president? Yeah, the only last thing I wanted to mention was another like Disney didn't. Another oopsie was that they used they used the likeness of a real woman named Maria de la Salude Ramirez Caballero from a village in Santa Fe de la Laguna in Mexico. They basically used her likeness for the design of Mama Coco. Producers came to her ledge took a picture of Maria, but did not compensate her or her family or give any credit to her

or anything like that. So, um, that's just another thing. I don't know killing they had. They only had a budget of two million dollars. So that sucks. That's always so frustrating, and it's like something that that should just

be standardized in Hollywood because I I don't know. Unfortunately, I feel like in an industry like this, you cannot count on the goodwill of certainly large corporations, no matter even in a production that seemed this determined to be culturally sensitive, and but they're just needs to be like a requirement that it's like, no, you cannot just steal someone's face, like it seems intuitive, but yes, I hope the artists that follow me are I've seen y'all. I

sent it to Iffy and my friend Neil Radford. There are a couple of people that have copied because you know, I post like my photo shoots, like my very like muscular like art Like I've seen people use those and um, like this is I should send you some. I'm like, this is my face you're or like my I've had people, I've had artists that will be like, oh I saved this and like use this as like a life drawing

or like I hope it's okay. I like planned to use this as like you know, because like the different poses I'm in like it shows off my different like muscle definition or whatever. But I definitely have seen a couple of Latino characters that look too similar, Like my face is very like my jaw and like, anyways, I made this about me. I successfully made this about me.

What I'm saying is you can, but like please like either pay me or be like Danny has to voice this character because we base this off of her look. But I've definitely seen you appropriately and compensate you. Like not too much to ask, I can say because I just be in this industry. It happens more than people realize. It happens more than people realize. And is also when you all tweet. I just had a tweet about this.

But also when you're like pitching stories and stuff on Twitter, people do steal those, so I just please protect yourself. Yeah again, that's why only tweet about Paddington because that story already exists. Yeah, or oh you know what, I should tweet a story about how me and Gail Garcia brnow fall in love Mary, and then that story can get stolen as long as it happens in real life. You hear that, Gail? Anyway? Um, yeah, that was all

I had. We've been talking for a long time, and longer than the run half of the movie, so the tradition continues. Wow, hilarious. H Does anyone have anything else? That's all I got Now. I'm just glad this movie exists. Yes, yes, and I already I know I'll cry next time too. There's no way around it. I honestly don't know the answer to this question because I was so enthralled by the story. I was hoping you would know. I forgot to pay attention. If it passes the Bechtel test or not.

I feel like it does. I think it does at some point between like Miguel's grandmother Ammam a Coco, and then there are other family members of his that exchange words, but I don't know, like to what extent or I don't remember exactly what they talk about. Yeah, it could be Miguel, Like there's a I could see it going either wait, let me let yeah, go to Bechtel test dot com or whatever. If you google any movie and backtel yeah, yeah, Becktel test dot com. Here we are, Okay,

it does. It does pass. But then there's a lot of this is like a lot of comments for this website, I would say, we forgot to do our job. But also the Bechtel test is again not that important to our show. Okay, so the consensus is it does it does pass the Bectel test. It doesn't pass a lot. But I would argue for this movie here matriarch well, it's like you're in a matriarchal family, in a matriarchal structure,

women have a strong influence on the plot. Could women and could people have a marginalized genders be speaking to each other more? Yes, always, and that's always fair game. But in the context of this movie, I don't know. This is just I feel like, not the best metric to apply to this movie because of how I don't know. But it does technically pass not not not a not a million times, but it does pass well. How about that.

As far as our nipple skill goes zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens, I would say, if I had to take any nipples off, it would be because of some of the like production and development stuff and the people behind the camera being still largely white men who were making a lot of the major creative decisions here, and even though they brought on consultants

and Adrian Molina as a screenwriter and co director. It's still is just like, Okay, well, who are you guys to make this movie and and tell this story. But even so, the product that came out of it was so good and so well handled. And aside from yeah, like the kind of border control customs thing that was traumatizing and triggering for some viewers to watch, and a couple of little things like that, this this movie is

really well done. And because it had such a positive response from the Latin community, especially because so much of the culture and community the way it's been represented in American cinema prior to that has been absolutely abysmal. So I would give this like four and a half nipples, I want to say, and I'll give one to Mama Emldo, one to Mama Coco, one to basically just all the mama's, another Miguel's and Miguel's mama, and the little baby that was in the house, nipple to little Sis at the

very ends. Yeah, I'll meet you at uh four and a half. I think that you know that the criticism surrounding this movie in the production, I think it's very much worth discussing I and the I mean, it's stuff we've been talking about for three hours, So I don't I don't want to, you know, retread everything. I think that there is valid criticism around certain creative decisions in this movie. There was certainly a lot of like white CEO creative nonsense that took place at the beginning of

this movie in terms of production. And I also think that the conversation around colorism is a very valid one that warrant continuing on this show and in the industry at large. And the movie that we got is so beautiful and like so human while also being very culturally specific, and it's it's such a beautiful movie. I can't wait to watch it again. It makes me wish that it existed when we were kids, but very happy that, you know, like our nieces and nephews are are going to be

able to grow up with it. Um, So four and a half nipples from me? I who am I going to give my nipples to? Wow, I'm going to give them all to Dante the Dog. Who I did think about doing that, because Dante is incredible. I want I am going to start actively seeking out a stuffed Dante to have in my home, and he has an arc too. He becomes another brick hid does. Yeah, he's when Dante came in the last scene. I mean it's like the whole the whole last scene is just absolutely um, emotionally destroying.

It's like it's beautiful, um. But yeah, Dante has even Dante as a full arc. It's simply that good. Four and a half nipples, Yes, um, I feel like I have to give this five nip? Is that how many nipples are? Five nipples? Because of how important this movie is to me and my family, And I'm going to give all of the nipples to Frieda, my queer icon. And I just imagined her there in heaven with all of her lovers, and Diego might be like far away from her, I don't know, or there with her. I

don't know. It depends on what she wants, yeah, to have what she wants. Yeah, Well, if it's Diego from the biopic about Frieda, it's Alfred Molina case Jamie. True and problematic on its space, absolutely, I mean extremely problematic. They seemed like star crossed toxic lovers. I just wish that she's surrounded by whoever she wants to be surrounded by absolutely the end. Well, Danny, thank you so much for joining us. This has been an amazing discussion. Truly,

thank you so much. We have to send you your three backed all cast appearance letterman jacket that we pretend to have that we don't actually have. What we should make, Okay, I'll like put it on and wear it in front of my mirror, which it will just be me naked looking at myself naked. Perfect. Tell us what you'd like to plug where people can check you out on social media, etcetera. Just follow me on social media because everything I'm working on doesn't exist yet on screen and so there's nothing

to point you to. Um, like a lot of other people during this time, like the last two years of my life, I'm like, I swear to God I'm doing something, but um, maybe you'll see it in No, I hope you say it before then. I am at MS Danny fernand Is. It's M. S. D A N I F E R N A and D easy on Twitter and Instagram, and that's where I post my things and my thoughts and my projects. Amazing. Hell yeah, thank you and thank you. Come back anytime. You can follow us on Twitter and

Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon, which is at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. It's five dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, which is over one hundred episodes. We did it. We can't stop creating content. You can also find our merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your merchandizing needs. With that, shall we cross the

bridge and finally embraced this the sweet embrace of death. Yeah, let's do it. Let's seize our moment. Bye everybody, Bye bye