Cinderella (1997) with Keah Brown

It's a podcast. It's okay, I need to stop. Um. I was really banking any picking up the song at some point. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. Uh, my name is Jamie. My name is Caitlin Darante. I'm so sorry. I don't know this movie north these songs well enough to join in. Oh my gosh. I was like, I it's it's one of those like I wouldn't have guessed that I knew every single word to this musical, but as I was watching back, I was like, oh, I very much Wait which song was that ten minutes ago?

And there dancing? Okay? Wait? Is it the one where he was like yeah? And then they see each other and they're like, I met you ten minutes ago. But I'm ready to put my life on the line for this love that we've discovered right when it's going down, right, it's so, I mean, you're you're I'm like, okay, so this is you know, fuck it, I'm in. I'm all in, right, It's going to be really hard for me to plot.

I just there. We're covering Brandy Cinderella today on the Bechtel Cast, and I mean we we should say what the Betel cast is, but we were just saying off Mike, I truly like getting ready for this episode was so good for my mental health. This is the feel good est movie in the world. It's feel great movie. I love it, So I feel great movie. Yeah. So let's let's skim over what the Bechtel Cast is so we

can just get right into talking about Cinderella. Um. This is our podcast that analyzes movies from an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, and that, of course, is a mediumetric created by queer cartoonists Alson Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, in which our version two people of any marginalized gender have to speak to each other. They have to have names, and they have to talk about something other than a

man for at least two lines of dialogue. So, for example, maybe Brandy and Whitney Houston talk about a pumpkin, whether mice can become horses. I could just I'm like, I'm going to be on the brink of just bursting out into song for the entire episode, sing and I can't even sing, so don't hold back. This is but God, yes,

that's what the Bechtel cast is. And I'm just so, I've had three cups of coffee this morning, and I've seen Brandy Cinderella, uh five thousand times in the past two days, because I just I was fully prepared for the episode, and then I just kept going, it is so okay before okay, let's actually let's bring our guests in before I start ranting about how it's a crime

that there's no official soundtrack to this movie. Oh wow, Okay. Yes, our guest is a journalist and actor, author of the book The Pretty One on life, pop culture, disability, and other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, And you remember her from our Cadet Kelly episode on our page. Treon are a Matreon. It's Keio Brown. Welcome back, Thank you for having me back. I'm so pumped to talk about this movie. And it's literally truly one of only three Cinderellas that I acknowledge, and it is number one.

Oh absolutely, Wait what are the other two? Just out of Curi so ever after? Which is the Drew bring More adapt and then the third one is duff one where they're like in high school a Cinderella story for the Road story, the Chad Michael Murray one. Yes, I

have to revisit that one that I remember. I just I remember saying that movie, I don't know when it came out, like middle school or something, and and finding it so funny that like Hillary Duff was wearing actually the tiniest mask, and Chad Michael Murray is like, who is this woman? Literally he's in the dinner every day

and he's like, yeah, I have no idea. Great. Well, that's a common theme throughout all Cinderella stories where like suddenly she u's on a nice dress and they're like, who is this woman I've never seen before and it's like her family has no idea who she is, just like, oh, he's great. Um, Kia, tell us a little bit about your history with this spoofy. I grew up with it, like watching it. I think he was like, what straight d V A dress V A dressice, And so I

like watched it constantly. Me and my sister would just sit in front of the TV and sing the songs to the top of our loves and I just was like obsessed with the idea that Brandy was this princess that this really cute guy also loved. And I was like, that's gonna be me one day. Like I had all these ideas of how I would just become a princess because I love it. So I've really grown up with that movie. I own two DVD copies because I lost one and then I bought another one and find the

old one. So I watched it whenever I need like a little bit of comfort. That's my go to conflict movie for sure. Absolutely, it's perfect. Love it, Jamie, what about you? Well, I'll go next, because mine's my history is sad, well not sad, but it's just that I don't have one. Okay, have you have you not seen this one? Beore? I have never seen this movie before. This is my first time watching it. That's so magical

for you. I'm so proud, Thank you so much. I know, I feel like, to me, watching this movie was the equivalent of just putting on a gown and going to a ball and just having the night of my life. I didn't know obviously, I knew that Brandy and Whitney Houston were in it. What I didn't know was that Victor Garber was in it, or Whoopi Goldberg or Jason Alexander or Bernard at Peters. So I'm just like, wow, I'll star cast. What a fun romp. The costumes. What

are the costumes? Yo? Like, Like, it's just a lot of color, and for some reason it makes so much sense to me, Like it's just every color possible in every piece of every outfit. And I'm like, yep, that tracks makes sense. So many just shapes. It was so I feel like anytime the nineties was all about these just like let's insert a shape into an existing garment and the boy or there are a lot of just

random shapes throwing outfits. I love it. Yeah, So it was quite an experience for me seeing it for the first time. Um, I think I just like Cinderella is kind of I mean, I don't like fairy tales, and this is like one of the ones that I I'm just like, what's the point of this story? But this version of it, I'm like, I'm on board. So it really does. Um So, Jamie, what's what's your relationship with it? Yeah, we had it on VHS. We were always watching it.

I this is definitely like my top Cinderella adaptation of all times, Like there's no really conceivable reason why it would not be. It's the best one. I remember, like my cousins and I were watching this movie all the time. And then once there's been three different adaptations of the Rogers and Hammerstein Cinderella, and I remember my mom was like, let's watch the one from when I was a kid, and we watched two minutes of it and we're like,

fuck this, get like, bring ours back. It's the greatest. And similar to you, Caitlin, I, I mean I had no idea who all these like iconic character actors were when I like, I knew whenne Houston, Brandy and Whoopie Goldberg would probably be the three people I'd recognize as a kid, But I was like, I didn't know what Seinfeld was so it was nice to go back and be like, oh, I know who like everyone is in

this movie. It's so good um, And I was really I really enjoyed learning about the production history of this movie too. It has like this this really interesting story, so I'm excited to talk about it. Yes, because this is a Disney property. I also went back and watched the Disney animated one from nineteen fifty, which I think I've only seen like once before as a child. It was like not in my Disney rotation movies as a kid, and I realized why now, because it is the most

irritating movie I've ever seen in my entire life. It is simply boring. It is so boring. I literally saw this one with Brandy before I saw that one, and I was like, okay, like I guess, yeah, there's no reason there. It's so it's deeply infurious. There's like twenty five minutes of just like mice exposition and like a cat chasing mice around, and they all have like really annoying voices, and like Cinderella is barely on screen for

the entire movie. It's like way more of a focus on what the mice are doing and it's just like, sure, okay, it's really the mice story. Yeah. And also that movie is like seventy minutes long, but it feels like four hours so long, so long, Yeah, because it's like nothing has happened. I don't know. I'm like, it's a it's a problematic, but it's not a boring story. But that movie makes it boring. Yeah, but the Brandy no notes. I mean, I'm just like, I don't know, five nipples,

Let's get out of here. Like it's perfect, Yes, it really is. Oh my god. I just I think about how much Brandy has done in her career and literally how I would have to fight to be like the best thing ever was Cinderella five and moment be like, oh my god, I'm sorry, I'll not give you a second. I just like, do you know what you did when you did Cinderella? Like, has anybody told you? I hope

she knows. I hope she probably did. Like it would be watching the I I went and I watched the like what because it's like aired on TV originally and they did like those um like half hour behind the scenes documentaries where it's just like a bunch of berol and it's Bernadette Peters hosting it, and she's being very Bernadette Peters and she's like, so, how do you make

a movie about a princess? And it's just like all this but it's like eighteen year old Brandy and she's so like excited and she's so it's it just it made me cry. And then especially her and Whitney together recording together, it's just great. It's beautiful. Should I do the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah, let's do it. So we open on Whitney Houston singing about Cinderella stuff, for example, pumpkins turning into carriages, glass slippers, and she's

saying that nothing is impossible. Then we cut to the stepmother that's burned at Peter's, who has two biological daughters, Minerva and Calliope, and one stepdaughter, Cinderella, who of course is Brandy. They are out shopping in the village because women be shopping. It looks it looks very like Beauty and the Beast. The way that the village looked. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, fun fact. This movie was shot on the same lot that The Wizard of Oz

was and that's made me all emotional. And everyone was like, I don't know, I don't know. Every fact I learned about this movie made me love it even more. Is that cool? They like that was like Munchkin Land, and then they turned it into Brandy Cinderella Land. Oh my gosh. So Cinderella is not so much part of this family as she works for them, as I serve the classic

Cinderella narrative is here. Then she sings a song about love, and then we see a man played by Paolo monto Ban in the village, also singing the same song about love, and they do a duet for a while, right next to each other, somehow, not noticing the other person, they walk So it made me laugh because I forgot how close together they are, because it's like it must just be a small set, but they're like three inches away

from each other. But then they do finally cross paths, and this man is smitten with Cinderella, but her evil stepmother interrupts and drags her away, and that's like the moment where you find out I don't know. I really like the adaptation changes that this movie made because they add in these like little like feminist moments for Cinderella where he's literally chasing her around, which is not ideal. But she has like this moment where she's like, what

are you doing? And then she says she wants to be treated with kindness and respect and it's not normal Cinderella. Um, I don't know, like I feel like Cinderella is not known for standing up for herself or stating her values, but Brandy Cinderella does. Like when he inserted it, yeah, when he inserted that she wanted to just be treated like a princess, and she was like no, because yeah,

it's to be treated with kind respect. And that's why I also love the Drew barry More one, because she is much of the same where it's like I'm not going to let you like speak for me or think that you know what I want. And I just loved that. It's so good and it's like and and I love I like that they add in like the I don't know, like you understand why they like each other. You never

understand why the people like each other. In the Princess Movie, they're like, oh, I want independence and I want like, dare I say more than this provincial life? That and was getting some very strong Disney's Aladdin vibes, because what we're about to get is a big reveal that this man is actually the prince in this kingdom, Prince Christopher.

But he has a habit of dressing as a commoner and going out into like the kingdom to dare, I say, escape the pressures of palace life, much like Princess Jasmine does. I mean, at least Jasmine attempted a disguise. He really is just walking around, Like, how does it everyone not recognize him? I'm going to talk about shirt that middle. It's like I'm going to not wear purple and my shirt and still be a very hot prince walking around. I don't have any problem with it. I love it.

It's hilarious. So Prince Christopher returns to the castle and then this guy Lionel played by Jason Alexander, who I don't really know exactly what his job is. He's like maybe the royal advisor or something. His part was also added it's not in the original and he only did it, I guess they said because he didn't want to do a role that was so closely tied to Seinfeld that he only agreed to do. What if it was going

to be completely different? I guess I love that. It's like I need to get out from the sheer cultural weight of George Costanza. Yeah, and part of that is that he's doing I could not place what accent he's trying to do. God, but it's something like vague European accent. And he's the only one who has it. Yeah, somebody else tries it, access He's just like, it's me, I'm doing it and nobody else is committing fried. I love

Jason Alexander. I always kind of forget. I was like, Oh, he's just like a full on theater kid, like the most theater kid energy it's possible. Loved it. So then Prince Christopher goes to meet with his mother and father, the Queen and King a k A Whoopi Goldberg and Victor Garber, and the Queen is like, by the way, I'm throwing a ball tomorrow so that you can meet

a woman and marry her and produce an air. And Prince Christopher is like, don't do that, because I want to marry for love and I don't want you to throw this ball. But the Queen kind of goes behind his back and announces this ball anyway, and then there's this whole Jason Alexander song about it. It's so good, it's great, it's so good, it's great. I love it. Christopher does he say, Christopher Robin, that can't be right, but I think it's okay. Then it's mostly just a list.

Oh God, I cannot resist. So then we cut back to the stepmother and Minerva and Calliope, who learned about the ball and are very excited, and they start to make preparations to go, and then Cinderella is like, oh, well, all women in the kingdom are eligible to go, so can I go? And the stepmother is like l O

L no, yes, and she's like anyways. Meanwhile, the prince confronts his mother about the ball, and he's like, okay, I'll go to your damn ball, but if I don't find anyone there who I like, you'll let me find love my own way. And she's like, fine, I guess. So then the stepmother and stepdaughter's head off to the ball, and Cinderella laments that she is not able to go. She sings a song about it, but then who shows up but Whitney Houston as her fairy godmother, and she

does the whole fairy godmother thing. She turns the pumpkin into the carriage and the mice into some horses, and then with some of the most iconic nineties TV movie effects are taking place in this scene, she just I love like Whitney. When he Whitney isn't casting the spell, she just like expels this series of like clip art. It looks like it does look like clip art. Yeah, and then they make her like the effects when she's

flying next to the carriage. It's it's lucky she's Whitty Houston because it looks real weird it perhaps it's not great that one's horribone we drink episode. Yeah, and then she don's Cinderella in a beautiful blue dress, and of course the glass slippers, and the fairy Godmother is like, don't forget this. Magic only lasts till midnight. So when the clock strikes twelve, you gotta get out of there.

So Cinderella heads off to the ball. Cut to the ball where Prince Christopher is dancing with a bunch of different women, but none are appealing to him, especially not Minerva or Calliope. But then Cinderella arrives and Prince Christopher sees her and he goes wouga, who's that? Oh my god. Victor Garber also goes a wugas like, if I was yugger, if I was like pous younger, it's great. I was like, wow, Victor,

I forgot Vigor Garber gets horny in this movie. Interesting, yes, So then Prince Christopher and Cinderella start dancing, and everyone's like, who's that And even cinderella stepmother and stepsisters do not recognize her. Neither does the prince, even though they've met in the village already, and it is unclear if she recognizes him, but she appears not to because she doesn't have any reaction. So again, if you if if as soon as you put on more expensive clothes, you become

unrecognizable to every luxury clothing. She put her hair hairs, so that was the real game changer, and he kind of swooped his hair to the side, So there's some major differences. Um. So they they're dancing together, they're hitting

it off. The stepsisters are spying on them in the background, and they sickly singing the boy is Mine, and then the Queen asks Cinderella who her family is, thinking that she must be from some like aristocratic family, and Cinderella is like, oh no, they're going to find me out, so she considers bailing, but then the fairy Godmother's like, no, stay, everything's going to be fine. And then the Prince is like, oh my gosh, I can't believe how much I love you.

But then the clock strikes midnight, so she has to run off as her clothes turned back to rags and her carriage turns back into a pumpkin, but she leaves behind the glass slipper and the and the Prince has no idea who Cinderella is or what her name is, so he wants to go around to every woman in the kingdom so that they can all try on the glass slipper to figure out who it belongs to, who it fits, and so he does that it doesn't fit anyone.

He goes to Cinderella's house, but she has been locked away. The step sisters are trying to cram their foot into the glass slipper, and then finally Cinderella, she's like outside dealing with the horses for some reason, and then Prince Christopher is like, wait a minute, it's you put on the slipper, and she's like it's me, and then they kiss and then Whitney Houston flies again. It is I love that, Oh it's me. I love that red touching on what happens. I just and that is the story.

Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back. Where should we start talking about this incredible movie? Well, Jamie, do you wanna did you have a context corner for like the production and stuff. There's truly so there's so so, so so much. I feel like I'm going to sprinkle it throughout our discussion because it, um yeah, there's just like so much there. There was a really really good um oral history published about this movie a couple of years back, I think

for the twentieth and diversory on Shonda Land. Let me figure out who compiled it, because it was amazing. Kendra James um just talking about kind of how this movie came together, the kind of resistance to getting it made, and how um you know, Brandy was like the first black Disney princess. So I mean, yeah, I guess let's start talking. I guess the thing I didn't realize going into this is that this movie was um produced by Deborah Martin Chase and that she was like this huge

driving force. So Debora Martin Chase, We've covered a lot of her work, but I don't know if we've ever really talked about her in depth. But she is an iconic producer of children's media who is really been pushing for representation in media for a really long time. She was Whitney Houston's producing partner for a while. They met when she was producing The Preacher's Wife, but she went

on to like be the driving force of Cinderella. She's the driving force for the Princess Diaries movies, She's the driving force for the Cheetah Girls movies. Like she like

basically single handedly constructed millennial childhoods. And it was really cool seeing like just kind of her and Whitney Houston's driving this project and you know, not taking no for an answer when there was pushed back on black Cinderella, on having a very diverse cast, and yeah, So the story of how it was made I thought was so lovely. It is. I mean, all I know is that first Whitney wasn't even trying to do it, but Brandy only agreed to do it if Whitney was her very godmother,

which I just think it's the absolute sweetest thing. Like she was like, I'm not going to do what it was You're my favorite godmother, and Whitney was like, I'll

do it. It's so not like I didn't realize. Yeah, So I guess when this project was conceived, Whitney was going to be Cinderella, and then production was stalling, and I guess also it was really hard for people to Whitney Houston was just like busy and what was not emailing people back or not whatever phone because nineties so literally three years passed and then I think and then Whitney essentially is like I think I am now too old to play Cinderella. And so Whitney it was Whitney's

idea to cast Brandy Um. She called Brandy and like I was like, let's do this, and Brandy was so excited and it was so nice to like they. I guess, like Whitney Houston was Brandy's hero growing up and like was the biggest like musical influence of her life and like motivated her to want to be Brandy in the first place. And then when this movie started, Whitney Houston kind of became her like real life mentor um, which I don't know, it makes me cry to think about.

And and Whitney Houston talked about in interviews how like she was mentoring Brandy, she also mentored Monica and because she had been mentored when she was a young artist by Dionne Warwick and was also a relative. Yeah, Like it just warmed my heart to look at footage of Brandy and Whitney for this is like so good, um so yeah, And it was like the most expensive TV movie ever made at the time. There was a little bit of pushback from Disney where this this made me

like roll my eyes back into my head. Uh. There was a Disney executive who everyone very kindly refused to name, even though I'm like, what was their name? But once it was clear that Whitney was going to be the fairy Godmother, there was a producer who was like, well, you know, uh, maybe we should have a white Cinderella. Maybe we should ask Jewel. It was like, maybe we should ask Jewel, um so, but the entire production team was like, absolutely, are absolutely not even speaking to Jewel

or thinking about her. Um that would have been so weird given everybody else, like if if everybody was the same, except for it would have been so weird. Yeah, like she makes this movie so yeah, it's uh. And then all the all the casting from their kind of like fell into place. One fact that I found very just like huh was that they ran out of money on the production, and Disney was like, we're not going to pay extras anymore. So what Pie Goldberg gave away like

two days pay to pay extras? I was like, fucking Disney, what is wrong with them? They were really they had to have been just upset that it was being made right like that. That that had to be a lot of it, and them being like, no, we're not paying the extra because there were a lot of extras. So I just can't imagine being like, we're not paying all these people for their time and energy. So especially it's like what do you want a reverse shot that's empty?

Like what are you even saying? Um? I also the the other I guess background thing that I thought was you know, encouraging because this movie is still ultimately written and directed by guys um, which is like you do hate to hear it as far as the writing goes.

I at least found it somewhat encouraging for like in this oral history, the writer of this movie, Robert Friedman, talked about the elements that he wanted to add to kind of update the story for the nineties, and I thought it was a really um you know, I was like not to be out here giving men credit, but I but I liked how he talked about adapting and updating the character because he literally just says he spoke to women in his life of what they would like

to see in a Cinderella, which is truly, uh where you start? Um? But I want to find a quote. Do you have a quote from him? Do? Okay, go for it. Yeah. I was reading that he made a deliberate attempt to modernize the Cinderella character. Who again, if you're comparing it to earlier renditions of the character, you know there's a lot of room for updates. So he would like personality. It's like she's no personality, She's barely

on screen. Um, So he wanted to ensure that she was a stronger, more active character and to provide her with kind of her own story arc beyond waiting around to be rescued by a love interest. And I have a quote from him, quote I'm not saying that it's the most feminist movie you'll ever see, but it is

compared to the other versions. And I was like, you know what, you're not wrong, And I like, I mean the elements that he adds to Cinderella's character, because it's like, you know, he's not really if we're adapting the story, there's only so much you can do. But I thought that what he added to Cinderella and to the Prince too,

like really did work. And so my understand was the elements he added was that whole exchange with them at the beginning, UM was pretty significantly altered because Cinderella has never previously said that she wants love in respect or wants really anything, and so adding that element to her character, UM, adding like what a huge imagination she has, Like her goal is not to get married, it's too like live

happily UM. And And I like how the conversations between Cinderella and her godmother are tweaked a little bit where the godmother tells her like, you know, I'm trying to remember the exact exchange, but like it was within you the whole time, and like you can do whatever you want, and it's a very like nineties feminism message, but it like it really hits in this movie. I'm like, yeah, because it does. It doesn't. At the end um when

they meet each other again, she's leaving. She she had a stuff cap, she had a bag and everything and on a little stick or whatever. Oh that's why she's you know, getting hassled by the horses, which is not really the most effective lay but norma um. But yeah, she was leaving. She was like, I'm not gonna take this anymore. I'm gonna go. So it wasn't like she was like I'm going to run in the castle and see if he remembers me. She was like, I'm just

gonna reave and not come back. So that's what it was the thing, and I love that too, where it's like, I just think it's really good that they made a movie where her whole goal wasn't to fall in love and meet the prince. It was that she wanted to get out of the life that she was currently living, which makes it that much more speeder. When the step mom and the stepdaughters are lit to be outside the gate at the at the castle like we love you like and she's like, where was that energy for the

rest of our life prior to that. But Okay, it's great because in other versions, I think she forgives her step family, like oh yeah, you horribly mistreated me, but you know, I'm I'm so nice. Everyone has flaws, You're like, yeah, yeah, because there's like a Cinderella too, right in the Disney one, the like there's a second Cinderella movie and it's like Cinderella to back in time. And here's why I know that, because like, here's what I know. Even I hated the

other one. Um, it's because the step sister gets the redemption arc. One of the step sisters met to Baker and realizes that shears me have to be trashed. Um, it's just the choice that she was making. And and I only know that because of the Internet. Well I wonder, I feel like I probably because that was like a straight to VHS sequel vibe. I don't remember seeing it, but I'm sure I did, Like I know I saw it.

I saw it once, But I know for a fact that like that's what happens because people talk about it on Twitter. I don't know why, I truly don't, but they do. I feel people love to talk about Disney straight to VHS stuff on Twitter, like no exaggerate the like do you want to pop in and talk about you know, v tapes, let's do. I've definitely seen a threat or two about like The Little Mermaid too, which oh yeah, because it's just they truly were like what

if we had Ariel but with Eric's hair? And then also we did Ursula except Geese shorter, like that's that's the movie. But yeah, I really like in this version of Cinderella, the movie attempts to establish that Cinderella and the Prince have something in common, um, which again is like, well, it's very I don't know if it's like necessarily borrowed from Aladdin, but it's like they both live sheltered lives and they wish they could just kind of escape and

like live their own lives. And because like, the thing that really bothers me about a lot of romantic storylines in movies is that, like no attempt is made to show why the two characters are compatible. So I was like, Okay, we have some compatibility here. That's nice. I love that they have the same conversation at the end of the movie as they do in the in the beginning when they're in the village, and I'm just like, ah, this

is nice. I also appreciate that you see representation of a man like loving love and like wanting to marry for love and who's like he's like constantly swooning. His whole arc is like let me feel my feelings, mom and dad. It's beautiful. It's beautiful because that that like hopeless romantic characteristic is like not a trait that is

normally ascribed to men. So I like really enjoyed what felt to me like a pretty big subversion that, Like he was like I love love and I can't wait to be in love and find the woman that I love. And um, right, yes, I agree. I think that it's it's smart too, because even when they were at the ball, he was just like smitten with her immediately and he was like, what's the song is like, um, do I love you because you wonderful? Or are you wonderful? Anyway?

The point is it's just like he's still yes, right, So he's just so ready to be romantic and be up and I just love that he was like I want to lock it down, Okay, I've never Yeah, that change is so effective because I feel like normally we see princess who I just don't want to get married, and then all of a sudden they do. Um, and we don't really know why because the people they married and are just women that don't have any personalities, that also only want to get married. But it's like his

defining characteristic is he is ready to commit. All of a sudden, the plot works a lot better and like, yeah, I also love that the dynamic and I think this is maybe just something that was in the original musical too, but the dynamic between um, the King and Queen is so loving and like fun. Right they don't hate each other? Yeah, I don't, And just like I don't know Whoopi Goldberg and Victor Garber's chemistry is like they're just adorable to guy,

I just love them. I will because they throw Jason Alexander off the ladder like rampled so many times in this movie. Um, and that's a class issue major, There's there's a whole class conversation to be had about this just kind of story in general. But we'll get there. But I wasn't quite as I mean, as much as I love Whoopi Goldberg and d Garber and also we're like, wait a minute, this movie came out in late nineteen seven, wasn't this also the exact moment that Titanic was coming out?

I have an anecdote about that. There's in this I swear like everyone, I highly recommend this oral history. It put me in the best mood, um because they got to talk to I mean pretty much everyone except unfortunately Whitney Houston, but like everyone else didn't interview for this, and so you just get all these great anecdotes where I guess, like Paolo mantle Bond was like, yeah, when we were shooting this was shot after Titanic because it was a TV movie, so it was shot like pretty

close to the time it came out. Um, But he's like, yeah, I don't know. Victor on the set was like complaining that he had had to shoot this movie in like this huge water tank in Mexico for six months and he wasn't sure if it was going to be any good and it went way over budget. And he's like, it turns out he was talking about Titanic like ship

so god. Um, but yeah, I mean the way and this isn't like the biggest gripe, but I felt the way mothers were represented in the movie was a little like I'm not sure about this because like Whoopie is characterized as being like very overbearing and meddlesome and like obsessed with her son's romantic life. And then there's this moment where she's talking to Prince Christopher and she's like, your father and I were just talking about you, and

Victor Garber's like, well, your mother was talking. I was listening because you know, women be talking too much, but um, and then there's a whole other separate conversation to be had about like the stepmother and the step sisters. But I wanted to quickly go so I guess overall, like yeah, I like, you know, the king and queen dynamic, but I'm also just like I feel like some kind of like trophy things were being employed there. Yeah, I mean,

it's it's hard. It's hard because it's like I totally agree. And then that's also so cooked into Cinderella that it's the way that because I mean, and and I guess there would have been there, it wouldn't have been hard to make it less that like the dad gets it and the mom is being overbearing in the same way that.

I mean, I don't know, does any woman over like thirty five gets a raw deal in these stories where it's you know, especially in the fairy Tales, they are like jealous, or they are vengeful, or or they're just kind of I don't know, acting maliciously towards anyone younger than them that they see as a threat. I guess, I mean, and that's definitely a conversation with the stepmother.

I think my only defense is I like Whoopi Goldberg, and I like Victor Garb, and so I was like, actually, when I was I I watched um, the Julie Andrews version of this musical, and the problems stuck out way more because I was not emotionally attached to the cast. Um. Yeah, that makes sense. It's true. When you get Whoopy in there, you get Victor Garber, you get Whitney Houston, you're just

she's any behavior. And I think my only defense of the earlier party that movie is again when they were at the ball and he makes the clip about how if he was like fifteen years younger than he's, like, I'd just be younger, dear like to try to play off the fact that he was like, Oh, she's up, she's a snack. But my defense of that was it was like how he said something about how they reminded

him how they fell in love. So it made me feel better in the context because I was like, Oh, so he's not just like annoyed with how much she talks or like how overbearing she is, because he just remembered how they fell in love. So they're just like parts of who she is. That like he just loves anyway. I like that they're actually in love, like kings and

queens are never in love for real. Now, even in the Drew Barrymore One, the parents hate each other, like they say in the movie multiple times, like oh, our marriage was arranged, and like she just looked disgusted the fact that her husband is the way hate he is.

And even though Drew Barrymore's character falls in love with their son and their marriage is obviously going to be happier than his parents, it's just like a constant comedy thing where like the older couple or the other couples you see within a fairytale like that I don't like each other. So they're still in love. They're holding hands. It's right, it's sweet, I don't know, holding hands, walking

over what's his first Jason Alexander. There we go. It's what a true I really love that shot because it goes on like a little bit too long for some reason, where they throw j is An Alexander off the ladder and then they both like turn in Unison and they're like, oh well, and then they just stroll away. Oh another okay. Another fun fact about this is almost everyone in this movie is wearing costume jewelry, obviously because it's a TV movie.

But Whoopi Goldberg refused to wear a costume jewelry. She's like, if I'm playing a queen, I'm going to wear Harry Winston jewels. And she called I guess she had a hook up at Harry Winston. And so everyone's wearing costume jewelry except for any shot Whoopy Goldberg's and she's wearing

literally five million dollars worth of jewels. Thought was, it's so great, Like if you're gonna make if we're gonna take a stand, let it be that one when you're like, you know what, No, I want, I want the real thing. I don't want costume jewelry. If I'm not dripping in diamonds. Then I'm not playing a queen. I can't get into the role. Like I just thought it was so fun because it once once I knew that, and I rewatched

with that knowledge. Everyone else's jewelry looks aggressively fakes are like, oh yeah that is a ruby. Wow, what a flex um. I know, it's so good. I wanted to go quickly back to Prince Christopher because one of the things that I think is maybe is now pretty dated and like very obviously dated to us, is that he one of the reasons he likes her is because she's not like the other girls, which he likes, literally says several times. He's like but it's like, okay, so here's here's this.

I just kind of want to break down. One of the initial conversations they have where they meet in the village. He's talking about, oh, how does a stranger get to be in your good graces and like get to know you better? And she's like, well, does this stranger know how a woman wants to be treated? Ka, you already I think mentioned like brought up part of this conversation, and he's like, like a princess and she says no, oh, like a person with kindness and respect. And he's like, oh,

you're not like the other girls, are you? And she says what do you mean? He says nothing, I don't mean to offend you. And it's just like, no, you just offended an entire gender of people. That's all you did, Christopher um. And then later the queen is like, you're not going to find her, so just like think about choosing one of those other girls from the ball and he's like, the girl was not like the others. She's

different from any other girl I've ever met. And then Whoopy is like, how can you know that after one night? And we're like, yeah, that's a great question, Whoopy. I mean ideally that's what I was like when like I know myself watching it in a much it was brandy that's that's you know. But yeah, that is like a very like of the time sentiment for what a romance

is based in. It's like, oh, well, I like her because she's not like other girls, because other girls are boring or other girls don't read, like that's usually yes, so like she has a book, so it's pretty low bar to clear, and like this might just be a good old fastened misogyny just casual. Um, I mean speaking of other girls, let's talk about the step Sisters. Yes, okay, can I go first? Yes? Please? Okay? Said that? All right?

So the Stepsisters were terrible, but also I loved that, Like I don't know if it's because the one who played is it Minerva just passed away? Yes? Yes, rest in peace to a real one. Um, but I loved them. They were such a mess. I love the little quirks about how one of them laughed too loud and the other one it's herself when she was nervous, and like the hat thing was so funny to me, like a little bit where they're like who looks better than this hat?

And she's like, I don't think it finds either of you and they're like, what do you know? It's a terrible Like it's because it's such a bad hat and they're such a bad people. But when they sing the song at the ball, that's like, um, how can I for I love a girl like her, a girl who's Mary lovey? I'm like, yes, I mean I would be like I would be a hater as well, you know,

I would hate. I would hate for the guy that I love for no reason at all, like know nothing about, but like I love him because it's a prince and

I want to be a princess. And I just liked I think that they worked really well together, those actresses, and I just think about them in terms of, um, one of my favorite songs in the movie is in My Own Little Corner when she's like talking about how she's just their little servant and they're like send they're all of warm milk and and um, Cinderella hot water, and Cinella is just over it, like they're just so

rotten to her and they're terrible. But but I feel like I liked it because you see how insecure they actually are, like they don't really have anything going for it, so like oh when Nervous speaks big Latin, but like who cares about And it's just like they're like we love you, like and you don't really love her, You're just just jealous and hoping to get some of her scraps.

And I felt like that was played really well. So I think about them often in terms of, like, it must be hard to have a sister that like slaps so hard and you know that you don't and you just have to live with the fact that you will never have what you has, especially when your mother is like drilling these really wild notions into your head about like don't ever show your flaws until after you're already married.

It's the best wine the whole day, I sing song and at least once a week likes, and then my sister will go. And so after the wedding, I thought it was really injo like I because there were like some I don't know, Okay, So I guess there's a bunch of different ways of looking at this step family, and um, as with everything with this movie, I'm going to kind of a bunch of slack, but I do.

I mean, it's like, on one hand, I feel like the step sisters, no matter what adaptation, they're always cast to be older than Cinderella, and they're always cast to just have like different body types than Cinderella. And so I feel like that is like not the greatest shorthand in terms of being like, well, this is like a woman that we don't think is like the movie is telling you, like they're not as attractive as Cinderella is,

and so that's never a good message. And that's true across the board in Cinderella adaptation that choice is always made without fail. What I like that this movie does to kind of like mitigate that for the stepsisters. And the stepmother was like, you're just saying, like that song, I feel like is helpful in like contextualizing them of like they're not just like evil because they are really insecure,

And I liked that. Um, I guess that the stepmother doesn't have a song in the original musical, and they were like, but we cast Bernadette Peters, so like, let's find one. And I love the song they picked for

her because I feel like it gives you. It's not the greatest you know, I guess context for that character, but it's one of the only attempts at like really giving a stepmother character some sort of like this is where she's coming from, even though she's obviously an unrepentant asshole, like but by giving her that song of like she's bad, Like all that song is basically saying is like I've fell in love like with love, but I fell in love once for actual love and it blew up in

my face. And we live in the question Mark century where like for most women, marriage is going to be the only way to acquire any level of security. So fuck love and let's go, you know, trick a prince into marrying us. Like it is definitely not the most feminist message in the world, but but it is like one of the only like I prefer an attempt to

contextualize where she's coming from. Then just be like she's mean because she's over thirty five and like Brandy is younger than her, right, because I think that for me, like that song, first of all, it's catchy. Second of all, the thing that made me think about her character with that song is that, like, so the person she fell in love with for the first time was obviously supposed to be Brandy's dead and he just up and and now she's like that don't mean the sounds like he

just died. So now she's taking care of you know, she's on her own. They don't have really I don't know how they have the house. Maybe he left it to them, but like, she has no more prospect now that he's gone, because she's over a certain age and nobody wants to remarry her. She's taking care of her two stepdaughters, who she wants to make sure they're secure before she goes because the only way for security is

to have a man. But she's angry at Brandy in part because Brandy reminds her of what she lost in her father. Yeah, and it's like that's it's and it's like her motives are always going to be like but but but it is like I I appreciated that kind of attempt and the Brandt Peter's performance is really good, right, but there's just so much you forgive because the people are because the people who were playing, you're like, yeah, sure, fine,

I can make that work. I love how that number ends where at the end they come out and they're like ridiculous dresses and then they're just like they sing the last note as their carriage is taking off and you're like yeah sure. And there's also there's like a weird statue of the step sisters outside of the house. Oh wow, I did not notice that. Yeah, it's like right in the front, lam like they're like spitting water

at each other. It's really funny. And then there's an other song when um they come back from the ball and she talked about how she followed and then Brandy tips her home and that's when she realizes I like that that they have that because in the other adaptions I've seen, the mom never realizes it until they come with the slippers, so or I guess it's different than Drew Brammer one. But again that's why these two attract here. But in every other Cinderella adaption, the mom doesn't realize

it until like the way later. But I mean literally, as soon as she bows her head, Brenada Peters makes this face like, oh my god, it was you. And then she's like, well, how could a prince love you? But you already know the labs like she already knew by then that that that it was held that the prince loved and I loved that they had a little

moment in there at the end of that song. Yeah. Same. Um, let's take another quick break and then we'll come right back to go back quickly to what you were talking about, Jamie, with like the because the step sisters, like, they are famously known as like the ugly step Sisters, So there's always an attempt in the adaptations to show them as being undesirable or unappealing in some way, and I feel like with Minerva particularly, I think the movie is trying it,

like wants you to think that because she's fat, that's one of the things that makes her seem unappealing, especially because there's that scene where like the stepmother is like dramatically trying to like tighten her corset, and then there's a lyric in one of the songs later on that she says, why can't a guy ever once prefer a solid girl like me? And I feel like that was like the movie's attempt to be like, well, because she's fat, that's one of the things that makes her unappealing, and

you know, that's not great the end. Yeah, And that's definitely like one of for for a movie that is generally very inclusive, that is life like one of its like kind of glaring shortcomings. That would have been easy to like they they didn't have to do that, but they didn't, but they did. But fortunately, um, Natalie to Sell was amazing. The chemistry between the sisters really is great, right, And that's the thing that I think helps is that

she played her so well. I just think that, like a lot of her work went um underappreciated because in this movie and in Baps and in that short lived TV show that Eve was the star of that was called even though her character was named something else entirely. I don't it's fine, um that she had a really good way of making even the strangest of character splash people makes sense like you really felt for them. And I feel like even before she passed me she rest

in peace. I'd watch a movie back and be like, I wonder if they would have ever, you know, did a sequel with Minerva or something, because part Calliope Bless her Heart, Calliope was just sort of like, to me, the annoying one, and Whenever was sort of just caught up in trying to both please her mother and find a love that would help her validate who she is

as a person. I mean, I've really sad and thought about this movie way too much, But I'm just saying, like I think I think that, Um, what Natalie did was really make her to me more redeemable in a way by just allowing us to see that like, she wants what is best for her and what her mom wants for her, and she thinks that love will give

her that thing. Yeah, And I mean I guess I've I've never like thought of like the step sisters are definitely me like Cinderella's whole family unquestionably cruel to her, unacceptable. Not in my house would we treat Cinderella in that way. Um, But but it is, Um, I don't know, especially how the sisters play it in this movie. Sometimes you're like, oh, they're also being like constantly emotionally berated by their mother, who is also a deeply insecure person, and it's I

don't know. I'm like, this is a this is a very complicated family, because there's no time where Bernadette Peters is not like even though it's like the stepsisters are the daughter she quote unquote likes like she's never not criticizing them and like never not telling them they need to alter their appearance, they need to like repress their emotions, they need to do this, this and this, and so it's like, uh, it's just a very unhappy household. Don't

be what does she say? You mustn't let the prince know how clever you are. Men can't stand to be around smart women, which I mean men are often very intimidated by smart women. So kind I like that. I like it too, because it felt like they did it on purpose, like to just show how ridiculous she is, and you're thinking, I mean, at least maybe I'm giving them too much credit, But it really did feel like they were saying it, like, look, how ridiculous this woman is.

She believes because that's what she was taught, that men don't like clever women. And it's the idea that oh, Brandy as Cinderella is so clever and so smart. She reads and the reason she has she's Cinderella because she likes to watch the cinder flies and her face gets

mudged and like she's all these things that brought it up. Peters, as her stepmother was told men aren't supposed to like right, And I think it goes back to that thing that we talked about a lot, which I think this movie does more to contextualize than most stories, where like the reason if women are ever kind of like cruel to each other or jealous of each other, just like in life and real life, is because we've been conditioned to think that we have to compete with each other for

the like you know, limited resources and limited opportunities that are forwarded to women. And in this case, they're like literally competing over the love of a prince who will give them, you know, like financial security and stuff like that.

And in this adaptation of like just the Cinderella narrative, the step mom and stepsisters, while still very cruel to Cinderella, their cruelty seems to be coming less from a place of like they're behaving this way because they're pure evil, which is like how those characters are depicted in the nineteen fifties Disney animated Cinderella, and it's coming more from a place of they're behaving this way because they're desperate, Like they're a household of women with few options in

terms of access to financial security, so they lash out at Cinderella, who they feel threatened by because they perceive Cinderella as being someone who's like more likely to gain access to that type of security that they are desperately after because she's so beautiful, and that's what men have

historically been conditioned to value in women, is like physical beauty. Right, So I might be like reaching or kind of projecting here, but again, it felt to me like those characters are less like evil for the sake of being evil and more just like acting out of desperation, right, Yeah, And it's like the idea that like abused people sometimes abused people, And it's not to like justify their behavior, but it's just the idea that, like, when you really think about it,

it makes sense that. But that Peter's character, I know she has a name, but I don't know what it is. I don't know if she has one, And I think it's just Stepmother is just stepmother. Okay. Stepmother grew up being told you have to be all these things, and so she trying to pass that on to her daughters because she thinks being all those things is what Land is her Brandy's dad. But once Brandy's dad dies, she's like, well,

what do I do now? You know, like they just I think that a part of their abusing of Cinderella is because they lose that high society life life they had when her dad was about so they're using her to still feel like they're above someone because of that. And I think that a part of what I've always seen in the movie is just that they're abusing her because they think that it's like a thing they have to do, and or maybe because they were also at

one point abused. But again, Stepmother also abuses the children that she supposedly likes. Like you said, so it's a it's a weird cycle that movie, and and just even in the idea of Cinderella in general, it's a weird cycle. Yeah, right, yeah, it's it's definitely I mean the stepmother, I think the stepmother Trump is definitely come up on the show before.

In addition to thinking this is a perfect movie, I just I appreciated an attempt to try to address the trope, because you can't really Cinderella, the story can't happen without a stepmother. Um, So I appreciated the the attempt to um to try at least and give it some some kind of context, because yeah, because it's like worst case scenario. We're just seeing like women are irrationally jealous of each other based on age and how like attractive society perceives

them to be. And it's like, you know, a trope that's been used forever to make it seem like women are just baselessly petty against each other when there is like there is a context for it, and there's a context for it in this story. So yeah, an attempt was made. I appreciate it. Yeah. And the thing is, like I think, I think for me, it's like it's so important to PROTICTI things that we love because you know they can be better. And for me, like, this

movie is perfect to me in every way. It has flaws, but it's still perfect because I think whenever I have this nostalgia attached to it, but also I just feel like it was brilliantly done for the time that it was done, and it doesn't feel like, you know, everybody's like,

oh my god, color blind, crastic. This was just like but and I think of like Britain, which they're not really connected at all, but I think about how in parts of Britain spoiler alert, the only time race is brought up is when the black people are doing it, and the white people never examine the dynamic between like say Daphne the white woman and Simon the black man,

and what that what that is like in reality. For when something to me that happened that was really gross, I'm not going to say what it is, but there's a thing that happens in Britain and they don't explore the dynamic between her being a white woman and doing that thing and then him being a black man, and then they don't address at all what she did as the abuse that it was and I think that with this movie in particular, it wasn't like they brought it up,

but it wasn't like it was this thing that they were like wanting to be champion four ward. It was just like, oh, look, there's a step daughter that it's black on a step daughter that's white, and Brenda Peters is white, and the dad is white, and Wippy Goberg is black, and the Sun is like of Asian descent, and then there's just Brandy who was a black woman.

I just I felt like, for me, this movie was ahead of its time in terms of the idea of color blind casting because it wasn't anything that they wanted to make a big deal out of. They just were a part of this fairy tale that was that and you were going to deal with it. And there was no explanation about why someone looked the way they looked. It was just like, no, we're telling the story. These are the people who populate this world and blah blah blah.

Where I think some times what happens um and any type of movie, but particularly in fairy tales, is like if they want to modernize that, it's like, okay, let's talk about why this person is of color, and let's make a clip about how hard it is for them to be of color, and let's do this and let's traumatize them this way. And so for me, I just really think about this movie in terms of just being

able to feel good while watching it from beginning to end. Yeah, because part of what the color blank casting does is just simply allows us to see a black woman as a princess in this like classic princess narrative and just like go through all the motions of that story without any other kind of trauma. I mean, she still experiences trauma at the hand of like her step family, but it's not like racial trauma, which is so nice because it's still so rare, Like we're in and it is

so rare to watch. It's like still be my which has nothing to do with this, I'm sorry, but it's like the idea that we can have issues without it always being about race. And I think that the way this movie did this ahead of the time and in the nineties was just amazing to me because it allowed what girls like me to dream, you know, like obviously I'm not going to be a princess for real, and like I'm queer and Cinderella is not, but she could be.

Though update we need for Cinderella's Let's make her queer, let's make her like please. But I just think that it allowed me. I have such a close um tied to it because it allowed me to dream and feel like it was possible for me. And I think that is obviously the magic of representation, but also a story well I told where I don't feel like I have to go through mountains and mountains and mountains of racial

trauma just to get my own happy. Oh. Another thing this movie does too with its casting is I don't think we've talked about this a whole lot on the podcast, but there is a long history of de sexualization of Asian men in media, where Asian men are rarely or never seen as romantic interests in love stories or just in general at all. Ever, so that the like handsome Prince Charming in this movie is played by an Asian man is pretty groundbreaking, right. And he's gorgeous. I know

that that's not the point, but he is. He's really handsome. The crush the entire world had on that man, like it just we all loved him. I hope he's well responded to one of my sister's Instagram commers a couple of months ago, and she blost that she was like, oh my god. I was like, what areaked out for her? Because first of all, he's aged well, second of all just a man of my childhood, Like truly wow. Shout

out Paulo. I just I didn't get super into this earlier, but I just wanted to give another shout out to Whitney Houston and like her, she was pretty explicit about like it was her and Deborah Martin Chase who made this movie happen, but Whitney specifically said like I want to make this movie for my daughter, which is so like it just comes through and there's like pictures of Whitney and Bobby Christina on the set of the movie, and uh, and Deborah Martin Chase says in this um

oral history, like to have a black Cinderella is just really something I know. It was really important for Whitney

to leave this legacy for her daughter. And what Bigldberg says something similar about being, I mean so hyped to do the movie that she literally gave up part of her salary so that it could get finished because she wanted this movie for her grand kids, and like just it was I don't know, really cool to know how first of all, I mean, unfortunately, how hard it was to get this movie the way that they wanted it to be, but also like how determined everyone was to

like get it right and too just like have Cinderella and not like boll it down with everything. With that you were just saying, Kia, and like how intentionally it was done, and like I mean it kind of as always, how like frustrating it was with Disney to get it done the right way. But that was the power of like Whitney Houston in like talk about using your powers for good, Like she was like the fairy godmother of

this entire production. Yeah, which is fun because there's still all these stories about how like she was never like she was never on time, and she, like Whitney Houston, was like grinding to get this movie done for years and years and years and then they were like, okay, so when can you shoot and she's like, I can give you four days, which is well no, that's so that's so cool though, because I think about those pictures of her on set with Brandy or even the videos

of them seeking impossible. And then I think about how she was on set wherein Hathaway for the Princess Diaries movies, and I'm like, there's so much that she did that like has come out now that she's gone, but that I wish we would have been able to give her her flowers for a while she was still here, because she was a part of so many of like at least my major childhood movie moments, like I loved the

Princess Diary movie. I love this movie. I love like like she just was a part of so many things that I think helped making me the person that I am. That it's wild when you think about how hard she had to do, how hard you had to work just to make them all happen. Yeah, yeah, and like and what a big like impact, like all of them, like Debor Martin Chase, I feel like I didn't. I I've seen her name so many times, but I never like fully put together and like, wow, this woman is really

the architect. Like yeah. And then her all of her collaborations with Whitney like just produced these amazing stories, always about women, often about a diverse group of women. And then it was always really fucking good I don't know. I just like I am. I about to write her fan mail could be also shout out to the diversity

in the background actors as well. I feel like this is something we don't see very much where even if a movie will feature probably not as much diversity as needed, but they'll be like, Okay, we've got, you know, one black lead and that fills the quota, right, and then

every other person in the movie is white. But like in this movie, there's so much diversity in the background actors, and like in the Village there's and the ball It's like I knew about the like pretty mixed cast of the main characters, but I was like, I was surprised to see how much diversity do it there was just in the background, and it doesn't like seem like it

would be that big of a deal. It's like, oh, they're you know, they're ext they don't have lines, but it is, yeah, and it's funny because it's like, if they can do that, why can't they do it now

they're doing there? I do have I don't know. I know, like I understand why this was a TV movie because Rogers and Hammerstein like the tradition of this musical was it was always a TV movie, but there's a part of me that was like, and I think, if I'm remembering right, I think Whitney Houston was pushing for this too. It should have been a theatrical release like this. It is also really I know that people talk I've seen people talk about it pretty frequently, but it's also really

weird to me that this movie isn't on Disney Plus. Like, fortunately it's on YouTube for free, but why the funk is it not on Disney Plus? Like it's cannon is it? Ager Hammerstein writes thing like what is it? I think that's what it is. I read somewhere that that's what it is that they can't and that's also why they can't do They could never release the soundtrack because they did it, they recorded it really stuff, but they can't

release it because of the Riders and Hammerstein's thing. And I think it's because Riders and Hammersteins also already has a version of it on Apple Music, but it's sung by all white people, so it's not it's not the one from the movie, so that for some reason can't get clearance to do the one from the movie, even though it's already recorded. And that's literally whenever I want to hear the song from the movie and I don't feel like Roger in the movie, I have to go

to YouTube to do it. Same did that on my walk this morning. I was like, all right, so frustrated because it's like if it it exists, it makes me so sad that it exists and we are not allowed to have it. Um, Yeah, the last thing I wanted to talk about. So there's a there's a message in this movie that is not present in I think a lot of other versions of this story where Cinderella like

wants to escape her abuse of home life. This is like part of her drive and part of her motivation as a character, and the Fairy Godmother comes and it's like, I can give you some tools to help you with that, but ultimately it's something that you have to do on your own, which I feel like can be read a couple different ways, where if you're looking at it from like a feminist perspective, it's like, okay, So the Fairy Godmother is basically encouraging Cinderella to have agency over her

own life and to make active choices and be in charge of her own outcome and that's great and we love to see that. But then if you look at it from like a class perspective, it's sort of like poor, Yeah you're poor, but if you just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and work a little bit harder than you'll magically get out of poverty. And that's just classic American start a small business, like even happen? How hard could it be? They got a load start as change

your life? Like, okay, we just covered enchanted. I'm like, that's literally the ending of enchanted. She's like, I don't know, I guess what's feminist? What's more feminist than starting a small business? And like, I guess, but yeah, that is definitely Like again, it's like I feel like that's when the nineties is kind of showing a little bit, when it's like, oh, we were not we were very much

not questioning pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality. I think the only thing that um I was really appreciative was that nobody at any point in the movie excuse the abuse. Like at no point Diod with me as a fairy godmother be like, oh, you know that you're going through a lot, like she was just like she was just like, no, there are gonna be people in your life who don't something poppycock and twaddle whatever that whatever.

That part of the song was where she was talking about how like you're gonna run across people who don't believe that the impossible as possible, but it's possible, and like, yeah, it sucks that. That's all she said. There's really no

word for her to get outation that to help. But I liked the idea that like nobody was making excuses for the abuse that she had went through, because I find it oftentimes someone says something, even in My Beloved Drew Barrymore one, at one point one of the steps sisters was like, you should have known that she would have went off, like if you said something to her like that. And there's a point where like she gets beat by the step mom and and the sisters like, well,

why did you do that? Of knows you would have been that way. And I really appreciated that that didn't take place in this movie in particular, because it happens all the time, whether it's Cinderella or not. Don't make an excuse for someone's terrible behavior. Yeah, and the and and I forget um, I forget which of us said it, But the fact that she doesn't forgive them at the end is like, it's so it's weird because it's with

with modern fairytale adaptations. It's so like it makes my head hurt because sometimes I'm like, if you address the problem to aggressively, the story feels completely different. And if you like go into the story Cinderella of like we're going to really examine this from a class perspective, it's

it's not going to really be the same story. And so the change is made to address it are very subtle and probably like you know, it doesn't address class, you know, completely responsibly, but the source material definitely doesn't. But the little, like the subtle changes that this movie goes for well, I mean just the fact that she doesn't say, like it's okay, I get it, Like, no, she was abused. No matter how damaged the stepmother and stepsisters are as people, it doesn't justify the abuse, and

she doesn't forgive them. M h. It's a star. And that's so important too, because a lot of times, for a lot of years anyway, it's been like, oh my god, of course you should forgive like you don't have to forgive somebody for a being like, you just don't have to do it. I think that's why I like it so much. That one ending ray on one, which I'm sorry that I keep bringing it through, but I'm just saying, I guess you'll just have to come back on the

podcast and cover that one with us. Yes, we I just liked that that that they don't they're not like, Okay, well you know they're gonna There was no reason to try to rehabilitate them throughout the movie, which I found refreshing because sometimes when movies do that, they're like spending too much time trying to rehabilitate the evil person that you lose this pieces of the actual main characters who were good from the start. So yeah, I'm with you.

And we talked about this recently on Our Beauty and the Beast episode of like the burden of forgiveness often falling on women because like and like abused women abused women because women are just expected to be forgiving and compassionate and and those are good qualities sure, but also, like like we said, there's the onus is not on you to forgive abuse if you don't want to do that so and Brandy doesn't. She's just like I moved,

I live in a castle. Now. I wish the movie made it clearer that she was leaving at the very end and like she had packed up to go. It wasn't Kia until you said that that I even realized that was what was happening. I wish you would we had seen her like packing her belongings or just that it was like visually made clearer that she was intending to like peace out, because I didn't even realize that. Yeah, like when she fell her suitcase popped open and he was trying to help her with the stuff. But I

do see what you're saying. It would have been cool to see her like packing things and like like maybe cut away when she was like the daughter was like, there's nobody else here, not even a sort of girl. My mom was going like, you get my holder, because that would have like drawn out the tension to like if like the prince was on the other side of the door being like, aren't there any other women here?

And then if we cut back and forth to her like not realizing he's there and like leaving, then we're like, no, we want you to stay so that he'll find you. That that's just good storytelling. I like that change better than because it was like in the in the animated Cinderella, isn't she like locked in a room being like like, yeah, she's that the mice are like trying to give her the key to get herself out because and like, yeah, there's way more emphasis on what the mice are doing

in that scene. I appreciate a non uh mouse centric approach. It's truly something sessial, and it's like funny because even in um other adaptions, I've seen the lock Cinderella up like they do in that one, but like she gets out and it's not like mice re just like she's like I'm not trying to be in here, like I'll

figure it out. Like it's so funny to me that I think about it now because the mice are so heavily feature like it might as well be like and so was Cinderella stories, like Okay, this is just a vehicle for the most Yeah, they're like trying to pop off like the minions were, like they're just like, okay, we know who's the star of the movie. For real, Let's give him a franchise. But yeah, looking at this, just not this movie alone, but just the entire Cinderella narrative,

like just like approaching it from a class perspective. This like part of the stories, like the rags to riches story where she's been turned into like a servant girl. She's in this low class but then she gets discovered by the prince and then marries into wealth. So like kind of the message of this entire narrative is like, well, if you're beautiful enough, a handsome prince will elevate your

socio economic status. It's a dated premise, but also I'm like, is that what I was secretly hoping for every time my mom brought me to a mall. Yes, like being like, Wow, someone's gonna someone is going to see through my back brace and realize that I am I am a runway model at And I think again too, I think I was. I was definitely like, oh, this is this is my time. I'm going to walk into the store and make guys contact.

Was like I tell you, for some reason, was like someone in the addle limited to being like, Wow, I've been waiting for my whole life. But I think too, Like in defense of that, which I get. I have so many defenses for these things. Is that it was nice because she wasn't really after money, you know what I mean, like it's obsessed as her stepmother and the

step sisters were with like wealth and whatever. She was like, I just want to be happy and like away from all of you told me that's why she got it, which is why she wasn't. Yeah, I guess that's like the less you want something, the more likely or to get it. But that like having so I don't know, I feel like that even works better with like how some of the songs are written because in my own little corner is it's whatever, it's her I want song and it's all about how she just like lives in

her imagination and like dreams of being other places. And it doesn't mentioned really men at all all. It's just like if I could do anything, I would go here, or I would do this, or I wish I could do this. And she wants to go on an African safari. Yeah, she's like, my name this will adventure, Like that's the dream I have for it. I'm not more milk. I'm just out here living my life. So I guess we

can just be like um. Most likely she and Prince Christopher soon went on a trip of the globe afterwards, and hopefully she didn't just move down the street. I bet you know. Christopher loved her so much that if she was like, all right, let's go on our honeymoon. I want to go all over the world, He's like anything for you, my dear. He loves love. Talk about someone who is falling in love with love, Prince Christopher, She whiz, does anyone have anything else they want to

talk about? Um? Just as a close in the soundtrack slabs. So it's like, whether you watch the movie or not, the soundtrack is gonna hit you like a total bricks and it's going to be beautiful the entire way. But there is not a miss in that soundtrack. It is wild. How is every song amazing? It makes no sense and all sense at the same time. It's just brilliant and there's no there's not a single bad performance in the

entire movie. Everyone's good everyone. Like I don't know, I just feel like you can sort of tell when people in a movie really want to be there, and like you just kind of feel like the energy of the movie is just really good and You're like, oh, I think that this whole cast just like likes each other and like is enjoying this and not to bring up the oral history again, but it seems like that was exactly it, and just everyone was hanging out having fun.

They rehearsed. I loved learning they rehearsed the movie like it was a stage show, so that the whole cast would get to know each other even if they didn't appear in scenes together there, which is like, oh, it sounds it just sounded like summer camp. Like I founded like so much fun, and I feel like it shows in the movie how much fun it was to make. And Jason Alexander was like, whoo, who I'm not George

Costanza right now? Victor Garber was like, whoo, who I'm not on a sinking boat with James Cameron right now. I would just like to close by saying that this story shame's women with big feet and someone who wears a fairly large suicide, especially in relation to my height. I feel personally attacked. And this movie also operates under the whole story operates under the assumption that no one else in the entire kingdom has the same shoe size

as Cinderella. So I guess like Cinderella has a size seven, every other woman either has a size like eleven shoe or like a size four and nothing else. That's yeah, that's the suspension of belief. Yea. Also, I was reading the shoe they're carrying around on the pillow is not even Brandy's shoe size. Like they made two different shoes. They made a shoe that fits her and then they made a teeny tiny shoe that represents the fragility of women.

Like there's because it's like, who knows, we will never know what size Brandy's actual foot is. But they were like weirdly like, no, she she has little baby feet. Well cute. I watched Brandy on an episode of The Rosio o'donald Show where they talk about Brandy's shoes eye and she wears the size nine, which is also the size that I wear. This is becoming a Quentin Tarantino podcast fast. Well, that's that's kind of I'm a wow size nine feeling scene. I am also size nine. Wow.

Wow look at us, Wow, look at us? We have such strong feet. Anyway, does this movie pass the Bechtel test? Yes? Between a ton a ton but it passes between a lot of characters. Yeah, especially with the point with like Wendy Houston and Brandy, like when even when they're just talking about, um, how she I was okay for her

to dream or whatever. So there's that little portion and I think there's like a couple he in there, but I think the stepsisters occasionally because they're I mean, it's it is sometimes like that thing where it passes the Bechtel test when women are being very cruel to each other, but a passes a pass when Brandy is like, debt, hat looks like ship on both of you that, and then the Victoria passes perfect no no and is she wrong? No, But it's the hat is the problem, which maybe she

should have been more clear about. But either way, um, yeah, this is also one of the few Princess fairytale movies, especially of this era, that passes the DuVernay test as well. He shouts out to that let's examine the movie through the nipple scale, which is our metric zero to five nipples, based on how the movie fares looking at it through

the lens of intersectional feminism. I want to give this, like, I mean, I almost have to, like pretend that it's not a Cinderella story, because there's just so many issues baked into that narrative that are like outdated that I do think the movie attempts and succeeds at updating at least a few of the issues with just the outdated like fairy tale story, and so I appreciate that it makes those attempts, and that the casting choices allow for just a far more diverse cast than we've seen up

until that point. And in a lot of cases, we haven't seen a lot of the same things since um, so so sad. Yeah it's so sad twenty four years old, and uh haven't yes, so um. I like a lot of the just attempts that it made at at updates, and I think, like I said, there, a lot of them are successful. Um. I want to give this like a three and a half. And had it not been like I Senderella adaptation and maybe like a different story or just like kind of a romance story that wasn't

specifically Cinderella, I'm sure it would get higher. But because it still has the fairy tale elements throughout the story, it doesn't score quite as high as I'd like it too. But yeah, I'm gonna give it three and a half nipples, and I will give one to Brandy, one to Whitney Houston, one two Natalie de Sell who plays Minerva, and I'll give my half nipple to Victor Garber, but his character

in Titanic, Mr Andrews. I'm gonna I I know that this is probably like not, but I'm going to give it four and a half because I just like love this movie so much and I cannot. I simply just want to watch this movie every day for the rest of my life. It is just like I feel like

distilled joy. It is so good I love. I mean, there are I don't know, I mean, I think, especially for its time, it is like a production that was like willed into existence kind of against a lot of odds by two black female producers and like Deborah Martin Chase and Whitney Houston made this happen. Brandy like brought this character to life. It is like I think that it's probably it was at the time the most like diverse movie to ever air on TV. Ever, it was

a huge hit. It has this incredible legacy like and I don't know, I mean the Cinderella story stuff it's for some reason with this movie, it almost barely comes into it because it's just because if we were looking at like the Disney animated Cinderella, I'd be like, you know, zero negative five nipples. Yeah. But but the fact that there were attempts to kind of work with this Inderella story to kind of update it for the time, the

performances are so incredible. I I ultimately the fact that it's still written and directed by white guys is deeply annoying. But um, I don't know, yeah, probably too many maybe maybe for I don't know, I can't give it less

than for follow your heart, Jamie. Nothing is impossible. It's such a depressing time and truly like watching this movie several times was the best I've felt in weeks and weeks and it's just like great and and gave us like our our first black Disney Princess, which is not a small deal, that's you know, huge, And so yeah, I'm gonna I guess, I guess I'll go for because it is still stepmothers and marriage and you're not like the other girls, and you're not like the other girls

had three times and that was an update. Uh so that I guess. I guess I'll go for it, but I cannot. I simply cannot in good conscience go under four. Um, I'll give a nipple to Whitney, I'll give a nipple to Brandy, I'll give a nipple to Deborah Martin Chase, and I will give a nipple to Whoopee. And that's what I'll do it. What about you? I mean, we already know what I'm gonna do, but it's gotta be five out of five. I know we think this was

coming the entire episode. I was already ready listen. I just feel like it has its problems, but it is literally one of my favorite movies in the entire world. The casting was amazing, like just the fact that it exists as all and all of something so special to me. And it's not even the idea that like she Cinderella is more of it, just like an idea that like this is a black woman that we get to watch be worthy of love on a national stage and like

you had me in Whitney Houston. And so even though it has its issues without You're not like other girls things and like the mean stepmothers and the annoying stepchildren, just the music alone to me gives it that extra nipple, And so in much of the ways that Jamie already said, I'm just gonna bite those and say, yes, I agree, and also just tell you who I'm going to give my nipples to. The first nipple is going to go to Brandy, the second nipple is going to go to

Whitney Houston as she rest in peace. And the third nipple is going to go to the songwriting because it's I just love the soundtrack so much that like, I could literally be having the worst day and somebody could be like, just go listen to the soundtrack and I would feel so much better. And then my fourth nipple is going to go to Whoopi Goldberg and Mr Garbert as a couple in this movie. And then my fifth nipple is going to go to the Hope, Joy Restoration,

dreams excitement that I get every time I watch it. Yes, I love it. I love that perfect movie. Well, Kia, thank you so much for being here again. Truly come back any time for after or whatever. I'll just invite myself for every like every rob ground that you do from here on out, like, please call me, because I'm ready that I will definitely come back forever after if you do it, and I might cry. Fine, Um, I've

never seen ever After something. Neither have I. Yeah, I even't seen most Inderella movies because I've never seen this the Hilary duff one. I haven't seen the like live action Disney remake from two thou fifteen or whatever. There's just you Do. It's so long, it's I mean, you think it's so boring. Um, but ever After it's not just the movie. It's a moment like much like this one. It is a lifestyle choice, you know, So if you ever want to talk about it, I will come back.

I have immensely enjoyed this conversation. Literally the best thing that has happened in the past week and a half is staying here talking to you both about this movie. Oh my gosh, well than I loved having you and tell the folks listening at home where they can check out your stuff. Follow you online. I have very online both Instagram and Twitter. At Kia k a h underscore Arihea. I write a bunch. All of it is at Kia

brown dot com. I need to update my website, by the way, but all of the things that I've written are there and um you can find me either tweeting about cheesecake, Drew bid More or um round comes, or you can find me instagram ng in my Instagram stories about random weird emails and stuff that I get from people. So that's your riot on both on both platform is you canna find me there. You can also find us

on those platforms at pectel Cast. You can check out our patreon ak Matreon which has an episode on Cadet Kelly that Kia was in, So check that out. A lot of a lot of Disney movies so far. But that is at patreon dot com slash bectel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it gets you access to two bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes almost a hundred additional episodes. We've done

there for a lot of meats. Um, and then you can grab some merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. How do we close out this episode? Oh my gosh, when possible? I don't know the song there? Perfect or no? I think that was? That was Brandy would be proud. You're welcome everyone, all right, bye bye