Chicago

so hot, We're so sexy and peregantinette. Yeah exactly, So when we get exonerated, would you like to start a podcast together? Oh my god, can you imagine a Villa Mkelly, Roxy Heart Puck. Okay, that is like the best worst basic cable sitcom reboot I've ever heard of in my life. Like, oh my god, yes you're the answer to your question is yes, yes, amazing. That Wait so horrible. Wait who would they cast as Vilma, Kelly and Roxy Heart doing

a murder punk? Oh my god, they'd be like Kristen Ritter and Kristen Bell are Roxy and Velma and oh my gosh, sign me up. Honestly, CBS call me. I've got the worst idea ever. Oh my god, it would be on CBS and there would be like laugh tracks and stuff. Yeah, oh my god, it would be an absolute nightmare and millions of people would watch. It would be America's number one show. Anyway. Hello, and welcome to the Beckel Cast. Jamie. It's your birthday episode day. Happy birthday, Jamie.

Thank you so much. Uh yeah, I um, I can't believe it. Another year, another year has past. I've spent half of my twenties on this podcast. Wow Fully, we're coming up on the five year anniversary. We are, which means I've spent half of my thirties on this podcast. It's I mean, we look at God. Look at God. When God invented podcasting, she really had us in mind. Thank you. Thank you for the birthday wishes. On the actual day of my birthday when this comes out, I'll

be in Boston. I think that I'll buy I'll do I'll do the Jamie Classic Boston Special, which is that I will get a large cold brew, drink the whole thing. Then I will go to a bar and have a beer, and then they'll cancel each other out and I'll be kind of tired, and then I'll do the same thing again, and then I'll sleep for twelve hours. I think that's probably gonna be how I spent my birthday. I did that for so like, why live your life like that? But that's what I did. I mean, it's your life,

your choice. I'm just sad that I'm not there to spend it with you because I'm still in l A. I would, oh my god, I would peel all of my skin off to be back in l A. But you know what I love. I love Boston, I love my family, So it's fine. Yeah, so so no, I I'm so excited to finally be covering a movie that

I feel like we were okay. So we're covering Chicago two thousand two, a modern classic, one of my favorites, and I feel like we were originally putting off covering this movie because we wanted to do a live show in Chicago and cover Chicago. Was that the reason? I believe so well, So, with all due respect to Chicago, I could not wait any longer. I couldn't. I couldn't wait another second. And uh, you know the way things are going right now, who knows when we will be

performing regularly again. So we're doing Chicago and I'm so oh my god. I okay, I can we can we like? Well, wait, this is a main feat episode. Okay, so this is the Bechtel cast. This is our It's my birthday. I don't have to be good at my job today. Do you want to take a load off and let me do this so you can just sit back and relax on your birthday? Oh my god, I'm going to have a sip of lean in food Google's Summer Shandy. Oh yummy, take a swig, and I will tell the listeners that

what is the show again? We examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, which is of course a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test that requires for our specific purposes, because we've made

some slight variations to the test here and there. Our version is due two people of any marginalized gender, how of names, They have to speak to each other about something other than a man, for what is hopefully a meaningful conversation in the movie or work of fiction. Right and boy is Chicago an incredible movie? To cover? For these purposes, they are talking about. I feel like, you know,

we we've been adding asterisks to this test. I feel like this asterisk canonically on this show may already exist that if you're talking about murdering a man who's an asshole, it's it's actually as that does pass the test. I agree this, not that we are condoning murdering men, but

like in the fictional space, it's cathartic. Okay there. This movie gets me so fucking pumped for what I don't know, but it basically just like any time I think about this movie, I then have to draw everything and listen to the soundtrack and like go on like a three mile walk and just be like, wow, how did they do this? How did this come together? It doesn't sound like it should work, but it does, but it does. It's so good. Would you say that this movie gets

you jazzed? It it gets me so fucking hyped. And this is the kind of movie I feel like this really um defines what makes a movie fun. Is that you know, like when you're I don't know, when you really love a movie, you like picture yourself as all of the different characters, or like one specific character where you're like that one's me in Chicago. I picture being all of the characters like you're just like You've got your days where you're like I'm being I'm being such

an amos today, I'm just getting run over. You have your roxy days where you're like, I am just like living on another planet and I'm not connected with reality at this time. Then some days you're just hot and your Velma Ellie and you're and then some days you're Billy Flynn and you're in you're feeling sneaky, and it's just I love this movie. I love all the characters. They're all terrible people. They're all the worst, and I really like when oh, I'm sorry, I'm just like Jamie,

it's your birthday, it's my birth it's my birthday. I really enjoy movies. I'm trying to think of other movies that kind of take this tech movies that are like really fun and high energy but also have a pretty low opinion of humanity. I love movies like that. And this is like this, like it's like scratches that little spot behind my ear. It's so good. That is like Titania kind of like man, it kind of like goes in there too. There there's a little more empathy at

play in that movie than there is here. I mean, everyone in Chicago is a nightmare. They're they're all so bad, but you like understand, I don't know, I just love it. But I'm rooting for all of them. Honestly, why am I? Yeah, that's the other thing, Like, why am I root for these motherfucker's They're just they're all except with and I do kind of like, I don't know, I'm just going to make a million exceptions for this movie because I don't like when the only like truly, like, oh, unquestionably

sympathetic character is some guy. But for some reason, when it's Chicago and it's John c Riley, I'm like, whatever, whatever his performance and Mr Cellophane even I'm gonna argue with that, no way, no way, it's too good. I think you could also make the argument that he's not that sympathetic or redeemable. I'm not saying he's a great guy.

I'm saying that it's it's very easy to feel for his predicament to be kind of someone who is not equipped to handle a situation that includes scrutiny, nuance, or public attention. But yeah, I mean no, everyone in this movie in this story like sucks to some degree, except for vill m Kelly, who I think is kind of above criticism. Um. But also but like, I don't mean that.

Also Christine Barrand amazing. She's so good. She's just oh my god, this is I and sorry to all the Mamma Mia heads out there, but this is Christine Baranski's best musical movie. Sorry, which she has a tiny line, a few tiny lines here and there in the song about they both reached for the gun. But other than that, I don't think we see her sing right. No, but that verse with Richard Gear and they're dancing around and then Rene's Alwiger does that little smile. I love this

movie so much. Did you see it when it first came out? Or no? I wasn't allowed to see it. I was was movie came out, And yeah, I was like eight or nine when this movie came out, so I wasn't allowed to see it. But I remember very clearly my grandma r. I. P. Pat loftis the best. She Her whole deal was that she would tell you things you weren't supposed to know when your parents weren't around, and then your parents would be like, why the fund did you tell her that? Um? So she I remember

very clearly. We were at uh. She brought me out for like a report card lunch, and she described everything that happened in Chicago to me. She told me the whole movie and she was like, it's so good. I saw it with my friend May and it was just the best thing I've ever seen. And she told me about the whole movie, and then I think, I think I would have seen it when it came out on DVD, so like I was pretty young when I when I saw it, I just didn't see it in theaters and

was just like so hooked on it. This was my first This was my introduction to Richard Gear because I still haven't seen Pretty Woman. What wow, I know, but this was my introduction to Richard Gear and he went on to become a very formative childhood crush of mine.

Sure off of this movie, as did Katherine Sada Jones, and so I just, uh, I love this movie and it's interesting to watch back in because unfortunately I feel like a lot of the themes and like messages in this movie are timeless in a way that people are always bad, right, But I don't know just I mean, this is like a very low hanging fruit angle to take. But I was like, oh, watching Chicago, you know carefully after the last five years in the US, you're like, wellshit,

it's wild. Yeah, yeah, what's your what's your history with Chicago? I didn't see it right away. I don't think I saw it until until after it won the Economy Award for Best Picture, and then I was like, oh, I guess I should see this. Um. I was in high school at the time, and as listeners of the podcast might know, I am generally not a fan of live action movie musicals, but there are a handful of exceptions, and Chicago is one of them. When I did see it, I liked the movie enough to buy it on DVD.

It's a romp. It's a romp, but for some reason. Okay, So a friend of the cast, Katherine Leon Spy Kids episode. Of course, she and I used to like. She would come over, we would sit in my bed. I would show her like quintessential movies that she had never seen. I was like, you haven't seen Star Wars. Here are the Star Wars movies. You haven't seen this, blah blah blah. I would we would like rifle through my huge binder of DVDs and she's like, oh my god, you have Chicago.

I love Chicago. And then for some reason, course Katherine loves Chicago. She has got a great taste. But for some reason, I was like, do you want it? I never watched this movie. Here you can have my DVD. And now I regret it because I'm like, I would like that back, Catherine. Catherine, have you asked? Yeah, she's not. It's not like she's refusing to give it to me. I just she doesn't know that. I um. Also, it's like streaming, so who cares. But but I I purchased,

I really made. I made a lifelong commitment and I purchased Chicago Diamond addition to watch whenever I wanted. It's remastered and it has all these fun features and I had such a fun time watching them. The production of this movie looked so fun, Like do you ever any time I would watch a First of all, Rob Marshall directed this movie and is further proof that the choreographer to director Pipeline is immaculate and needs no adjustment. See Kenny or take Up. I was gonna say yeah, and

I think that's the only other example. I'm sure there's others, but that's too. That's two pretty strong choreography good examples. Rob Marshall choreographed and directed this movie and all the behind the scenes. It just looks like a bunch of celebrities went to summer camp to put together a school play and then one of my favorite movies came out of it. Like is so cool? I love Wow? Well, should I do the recap? And yes, but I need to tell you something about Rob Marshall first, Okay, please,

I was wondering if you located this fact. This is something that like, okay, much like my other fun fact that has nothing to do with this movie, but we talked about the other day. This is a fact that I know in my bones, but I forget and I relearned once every couple of years, and I love it. It's about director Rob Marshall, and it's that he began

as a dancer then became a choreographer. Makes sense. But the thing that launched him into choreography and directing and got him out of the full time dancing game is that he suffered a herniated disc while performing in Cats. So the only reason that Chicago two thousand two is as amazing as it is because I feel like that choreography and like the understanding of stage language is so much of what makes this movie awesome and why I like it more than a lot of other live action

movie musicals. Yeah, as it actually like understands cinematic language and like how to put together a musical in a way that's like totally I can suspend my disbelief for the things that are happening, etcetera. It's so yeah, it's so good. And if he hadn't suffered a herniated disc while being a full body cat, it wouldn't have happened. Imagine.

It is interesting to me how it's like I guess that I'm I still haven't seen in the Heights, and like whatever, there's that Steven Spielberg West Side Story coming out. I wonder if it's going to be any good, because I feel like big directors are given popular Broadway musicals and very often like I don't know what to do with them, and they're so I mean, it's like you've got Joel Schumacher fant about the opera a lot of swings.

He didn't know what he was doing. Chris Columbus did Rent, which is one of the worst like director to project matches I can think of. Like, there's just so many examples of people getting it wrong, and it's like, yeah, cats cat whatever, I forget his name, but the guy who did what's his name, Tom Tom Pepe, Yeah, who also funked up La Miss, but everyone gave him awards for it for some reason. It's like, oh, can you make every famous person sing out of key and cover

them in dirt? Like I don't get but but yeah, like this this whole I think is so interesting about this movie because it's like this movie and Mulin Rouge came out very close together, and I feel like people sort of thought, oh, there's going to be this big resurgence of the movie musical, but then there kind of wasn't because then they just like hired all these famous directors who didn't understand musicals. But Lan Rouge one of the few other live action movie musicals that I can

fully get behind. It's amazing. I was. I feel like, I don't know if I've ever said his name correctly, bas Learman. I think that's right. He definitely has like an understanding of like movement and pacing and like that's so much of his style and that's why it works. Anyways, pisses me off. Stopped getting really famous people who make like war movies, war horses, like musicals. What are you

doing anyways? Um, maybe we should take a quick break before we get into the recap, because we've just been chatting for so long about how great Chicago is. All right, so let's take a quick break and we'll come right back and we're back. Okay, let's summarize the movie. I promised not keep talking about. Oh wait, but I have one more fun factor. No please, we talked about it the other day. I'm sure it's connected to Chicago tangentially because, oh because the two people in this fun fact, we're

both living in Chicago. We're very famous in Chicago. Roger Ebert and Oprah used to date in the eighties. That is a Chicago fact. That's just Chicago canon. Chicago canon includes this musical and the fact that Roger Ebert and Oprah briefly dated, which I didn't know about until you told me. I don't know why that's not more common knowledge. I know, but they were. But it's like at first year, like but he's like so much older than her and

she's so much cooler than him. And Steadman is such a you know, Steadman is so canon, right, but yeah, like he was basically her last boyfriend before Steadman came into the picture, one of the last ones wild. That's just that's I'm Richard Gear putting my hat on, and that's Chicago. Oh my god. And that's going to be one of those facts that I will forget and then relearn in a couple of months or years or whatever, and then be like, oh my god, I can't believe it.

It's just like Rob Marshall getting a herniated desk in Cats. It's just a delightful thing to learn over and over again. So what so what happens in this movie anyways? Okay, let me tell you. It's the roaring twenties in ch Chicago. There's jazz music, they're flapperds, there speakeasies, it's the whole nine yards. He Digs is in charge. Oh my gosh. I was so delighted to see him. Who's my first height Digs movie? Too? Was? It really is going five six, seven, eight?

And then what you're ten and you're like, what is exqueeze me, who's that exciting? Just a reminder. T Diggs now follows me on Twitter thanks to our Stella got her groove back episode, so incredible. Tag him in this I will. And another celebrity connection I have to this movie is that John c Riley I saw at a roller skating rink in Glendale, California. Oh my gosh. And he's like a regular and not to docks his hobbies, but yeah, isn't he like a regular there? And he's

like really good. That's what I've heard. He was a pretty good roller skater. It's true. And uh, I I don't know how frequently he he attends this roller rink, but um, I'm so glad that John c Riley exit. I feel like there's so many dads that have been able to connect with their children over a mutual appreciation of John c Riley. What a beautiful thing. Dads are obsessed with John c Riley. The deeper, the cut, the better, and I understand why. I get it. Okay, So we're

in the jazz age in Chicago. We meet vil m Kelly. That's Katherine's to Jones Hot. She shows up at this jazz club to do her vaudeville act, which she normally does with her sister, but her sister isn't there, and Velma is washing blood off her hands, and we're like, what's what's going on? And then it's one of the

best openings of any movie ever. She's so hot, she's so it's like I in our defense, she like her whole She's obviously very hot, but like her whole attitude is like hot, Like she's just hot at a very profound, like in this confident way. You're like, I'm never going to feel that way for a second of my entire life. It's so amazing to just behold it, truly is. It's great. And as you mentioned, Tay Diggs is also there playing the piano and all over the place. Also there is

roxy Heart that's Renai's elbowger. She is in the audience watching Velma. Then she goes home with this guy that she's having an affair with who I forgot to write his name down? Fred Caseley? Fred Caseley? Yes, whose Fred Casey Mike's boyfriend? Why did you shoot him? I was leaving, etcetera. R Yes. She finds out that Fred Caseley has been lying to her about being able to help her break into show biz, which is her dream. She wants to

be just like Vill m kelly. Basically, Fred Casey is basically a guy who will drive you to an open mic and say that he can get you up at the open mic, but then it turns out he can't even he can't even get himself up at the open mic, and you're like, hold on, and then you understand her motive for shooting him, because that kind of guy, you know, the kind of guy. Yeah. So he then gets really aggressive with her and physically assaults her, so she shoots

and kills him. Yeah. Roxy then tries to get her husband Amos that's John c Riley to take the fall for it, saying that this guy was a burglar and that Amos shot him in self defense. Another amazing number. It's so funny. Honey Rocks. Not one of my favorites, but still pretty good. I love I love it. I love when Rene's Algar is just casting looks at John c Riley and he's like, but what, but what? But what? And you're like, oh my gosh, someone helped this guy out.

And then she pushes him right because he is slowly realizing that this guy who has been shot is someone who Roxy knows and is having an affair with. So Roxy ends up getting arrested and getting sent to Cook County jail, and the d A wants to see her hanged for her crime. Right, that's like a big, big deal, which I guess which I didn't realize, Like how like historically accurate that was at the time too, of just the kind of blood lust that came with normalized hangings

and death penalties in the US. Yeah, scary, So the stakes are high, yes, And in jail, Roxy meets Mama Morton. That's Queen Latifa, who I want to see an entire movie about her character. I wish. I've never seen the stage production of this. I do like in the movie. I feel like I definitely want to know more about Mama Morton, Like how did she get start working there? What is her background? Like what does she do when

she's not working? Like, I don't know, there's I have a bajillion questions, And I wonder if there's more to her in the stage production. I've never seen it on stage. I was love too, but yeah, like Queen Latifa, just I mean she was nominated for I think, like everyone was nominated for an Oscar for this movie, but Queen Latifa was I think, I mean, Catherine's Aida Jones ended up winning and she was also amazing, but I think Queen Latifa for me, kind of takes it because she

just kills it. It's so good. And yeah, it's like, because of how good she is, you just want to watch this character forever. And she's funny when she has the blonde wig. Oh my gosh, it's also good. I read that there was a musical number that she and Katherine's Data Jones saying in a movie called Class that

they cut from the movie. Yeah, it's in the credits instead, So yeah, we maybe learn more there, but yeah, I feel like we and we'll talk about this, but yeah, we do not get a lot of background on her but her role in the So she is also a prisoner, right, but she has taken on this role of helping out other prisoners in exchange for money. Ever heard of it? So we meet her and she gets a great song which I think is my favorite in the movie, which how does it go? When You're good to Mama, When

you're good to mama, Mama's good to you. Oh my god, it's so good that whole number. And then in the behind the scenes they show you how they shot it, and I guess they shot it like the first time they shot it in the like stagey version where she's

wearing the flapper outfit. Um the first time, they had her stay on stage the whole time, and then Rob Marshall's like, let's try it, and this time like go into the crowd and interact with people, and they ended up using stuff from both versions, and it's so I was like, I love that. It's it's so good. It's great. So Roxy meets Mama Morton. She also meets vil M Kelly, who has since been arrested for murdering her husband and her sister who were having an affair with each other.

And then we also get introduced to the six Mary murderouses of the Cook County Jail, who have mostly murdered men because they were cheating on the women or the women were annoyed with popping bubblegum. I found that to be pretty funny as a motive. So Roxy asks Vilma Kelly for advice on how to avoid being hanged, but Vilma like kind of blows her off, so Roxy goes to Mamma Morton who tells roxy that she needs a good lawyer. Enter Billy Flynn. Well, yeah, and I as

MoMA Martin is not a prisoner. She's not. Oh no, she's not. She's like the superintendent as she's like the warden of the prison she's employed by, So that's why that's where her power comes from. So she's I feel like she is kind of like a stand in for how the prison system is extremely corrupt because she is like taking money from prisoners and accepting bribes in order to communicate with the outside world because she has access to it. Yeah, she's like a prison warden. Got it.

I couldn't tell because the prison staff were dressed very similarly to we all have the same prisoners. So it's like, is she a prisoner? No, she's not, got it? Because I've seen Shawshank Redemption a million times, I thought she was like the Red character of that movie, who plays a very similar role in like procuring things for the other prisoners. But Red is a prisoner as well, so I just kind of assumed it was the same situation. Mama isn't she is, She's the warden and that's why

she is able. I think it's like when she takes money, she's able to like contact the press, contact Billy Flynn, contact whoever. That makes more sense. Okay, So Mama Morton tells Roxy to hire Billy Flynn, who is very good at defending women murderers, but he's also a very sleazy, money grubbing lawyer. Guy. It's like a cartoonish yeah, criminal

defense lawyer. Yeah. So Billy Flynn already represents Filma and he eventually takes on Roxy's case as well, thinking that he can spin her as this like sweet reformed Southern bell type. Because the whole thing with these murderous is is that they have to get like the public and the press to empathize with them, like empathize with this persona that they cultivate in order to clear them of charges. So this is what both Velma and Roxy are trying to do for their like defense, and the public falls

in love with Roxy heart. Billy Flynn is paying a lot of attention to her case, which makes Velma very jealous, and Roxy is also trying to capitalize on her fame as a murderer and turn it around into a successful show business career, assuming she gets out of prison right, which she is like directly stealing that from Velma Kelly who's in the middle of doing it, and it's Roxy is so naive. And then Velma, who the public is starting to forget about, tries to suck up to Roxy.

She pitches that they do an act together when they're released from prison, but Rocket number Tay Diggs being like Vilma Kelly and an act of desperation and we're like, t he he it's so good. And then Catherine Aanda Jones, Oh god, it's so good seeing like a really well executed like song and dance number, but also like you know that the characters like really at the end of their rope, and she's so desperate and sad and oh,

I love this movie so much. So Vilma pitches this idea, but Roxy, who remembers when Vilma was really mean to her, is like um pass. But then people momentarily lose interest in Roxy. When a new murderous takes Chicago by a storm yep, Lucy lou Is saying I have three for you go to Hell. It is like ja, oh my god, Pulitzer. Yeah,

her character's name is Kitty Baxter. Um and everyone's obsessed with her for a while, so as a publicity stunt to get back in the spotlight, Roxy pretends to faint and then says, oh, no, I hope the fall didn't hurt the baby a k A. She's pretending to be gregnant gregnant, she's pretending to be heavy with greg That brilliant,

shitty person thing to do in that moment. Truly, she would make a great influencer TikTok personality today she essentially is, Yeah, she's like a flapper influencer, where she's like a flash in the pan. She's not doing anything special, but she's like cut throat in a way that you're like, oh my god, this woman is terrifying to me, or just I mean person in general, terrifying influencers, No, no gender, it's it's it's everybody, truly. Um And this publicity stunt works.

But then Amos figures out that he couldn't be the father based on this like fabricated do date, so he plans to divorce her. Mr Cellaphane comes on and we're like, oh, it's so sad and good, and then my dad's like, maybe I do like musicals. Well that happened yeah, because and that's and that's the power of John c Riley to get my dad to watch a whole movie musical and be like, I kind of like that. Wow, Mike,

I like John c Riley song. Shout out to Mike Loftus shout out like Meanwhile, one of the lady murderers in jail loses her appeal and is hanged, making her the first woman in Illinois to be executed. Also, we have met a reporter named Mary Sunshine. That's Christine Baranski who we see throughout the movie. She's reporting heavily on all of these cases of the women in murder throw Yeah, just to shout her out. She's incredible. The outfits that she wears, I mean iconic. This was I think my

first time when I saw this movie. It was my first time seeing so many famous people. This definitely would have been like my adwitter, Richard gear renaz Alwig Er Katain's, Aida Jones, Queen Latifa, John c. I mean, I wouldn't have seen any of these people before because I was nine. But the only person I had seen before was Christine Baranski because she was in How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Martha May who so her influence, she had a strangle

hold on millennial children. What a What a career? She said, what a career. So then it's time for Roxy's trial, which goes well. At first it seems like this defense that Billy Flynn and Roxy have created is working on the jury, but then Velma is called in to testify and she lies about some information that makes Roxy look bad. But then Billy works as magic and Roxy is ultimately

found not guilty. But the moment she's exonerated, another woman commits a murder on the courthouse steps, so the public frenzy moves on to her and no one cares about Roxy anymore, or Lucy Lou or Lucy Lou or Velma. So one day Velma approaches Roxy and she's like, hey, remember that double act I pitched. Let's do it, baby, And then Roxy's like, well, I hate you but fine. That's my favorite, one of my favorite line reads in the entire movie, where she's like, should we do it?

And then Roxy is like no, and then she says why and she because I hate you away It's then Velma's like, there's only one business in the world where that doesn't matter, and then we're like show business. The way that Catherine's Aada Jones speaks is so like wealthy. I don't know how she she makes words just they just keep going. There's this um on one of my favorite podcasts, Who Weekly Um, which is a celebrity gossip podcast that is I do recommend it. It's really good.

But they've been covering Catherine's Dada Jones quite a bit recently because she is starting all of these small businesses that don't make any sense. But she recently posted a TikTok with these like gourds that she had grown in her garden. Picture of this Katherin's Aida Jones holding an enormous gourd, right, and she says it's extremely large, Like she's just like talking about gourds, but she's Katherine's Dada Jones,

and so it just sounds like so theatrical. It's that's the energy she's bringing to Like there's one business where that doesn't matter at all. You're like, oh my god, she sounds like a long cigarette Like it's it's wild. I mean, she was perfectly cast, she really was. So. Then the movie ends with Roxy and Velma performing on a big stage for lots of adoring fans and that's

the movie. Yeah, so let's take another quick break and then we'll come back to discuss and reac I wanted to just start this conversation by acknowledging something that is by far one of the worst elements of this movie, which is the fact that it's produced by the Wine Stains having and and this is I mean, we've talked

about it on the show before. I don't think that there's really occasion to rehash everything now, but obviously the fact that the wine Stains are attached to this production is horrific and it and it just you know, it takes kind of a little bit of the wind out of a really amazing production. Fortunately, it as far as I can tell, it doesn't seem as if the Weinsteins were like around in an onset capacity. Um. It seems

like the production of this movie was relatively smooth. There was some news items I was seeing about I believe Goldie Hawn almost being in an adaptation of Chicago by the Weinsteins in the mid nineties, and then she was harassed by Harvey Weinstein and the project ended up not happening.

Uh well, linked to that in the description, but obviously want to acknowledge their involvements, and I mean it goes without saying that they're fucking monsters, but the production team on this movie, I mean, it's kind of interesting where this movie is written and directed by men. They are both gay men and openly gay men. In uh in Hollywood and in early two thousand's that was still a pretty um unusual thing to be an openly gay director

directing movies of you know that were this huge. So shout out to Rob Marshall and his hopefully recovered disc for that and and their queer directors who have gone on to have huge careers afterwards. This is I don't think Rob Marshall ever, you know, returned to the height of Chicago, but you know, he directed Into the Woods,

which I didn't see. He directed the Emily Blunt Mary Poppins, He's directing the New Little Mermaid, and then the screenplay was written by Bill Condon, who started as a writer and is now a huge director. He wrote Chicago, but he also wrote and directed Dream Girls, another faive of mine from this time, directed to Twilights, directed both Breaking Down. Mr Bill was was there um and also directed the uh what he he wrote The Greatest Showman. Okay, that's

the point against him. But and then he directed The Emma Watson Beauty and The Beast That Sucked. All that to say, the two kind of top brass. Here are queer men who went on to have very successful careers. So shouts out there, good for them. Yeah, should we do a little context. Yeah, the context for this movie rocks. I knew I knew some of this, but going back and like finding out how much of this movie at well, this musical is pulled from actual history is so wild.

Do you want to take it? I can take whatever you prefer. How about this? Take another swig of your your beer? All I ran out? Oh no, I'm so sorry. But yeah, I mean, I'll take the reins on this one. But if there's anything I messed up or that you'd like to add, by all means, I'll just chime in. I'll just chime in my nase. Okay, So Chicago The Two movie is based on a nineteen stage musical of the same name, which had a revival in which became

the longest running American musical and Broadway history. Bob Fossey, Baby, that's that Fossy Magic. Yes. Um, that musical was based on a nine Broadway play by Maureen Dallas Watkins, who we will be talking more about, and that play is about to real life jazz era murderers. These names I might get wrong as far as pronunciation. Um, it's these names sound to me like you're forgetting val m Kelly

and Roxy Heart. Like it just sound like you're like um Belva Gartner and you're like no Velma Kelly, so Belva Gartner who Velma Kelly is based on, and Boula Bela Ann who Roxy Heart is based on. So basically in the nineteen twenties in Chicago, I don't know if there was like an unprecedented number of women in jail for murder in this time and place, or if it's just that women being in jail for murder in Chicago in the twenties was especially publicized, and that's why we

know a lot about it. I have. I have a tiny bit of insight here that connects to quick Plug ac cast just still being released right now. You can listen to it and you can hear Caitlin's voice in it as well in it. But so my understanding of this is at least in the way it was covered in the media, which is like, what that whole play was satirizing, is that this kind of comes at the tail end, Like the crimes that this is based on

comes a couple of years after women get the vote. Uh, it comes at the tail end of the first wave feminist movement. And so the whole Flapper era, I mean it was, and we'll discussed this as well, it was very still centered on middle class and above white women,

which this story is no exception too. But uh, what what I learned in researching for the show is that usually periods of success for really any social movement, but in this case, the feminist movement is then met in the years following with a wave of backlash and at least focus on, um, the negative aspects of literally anything

a woman is doing that is negative. And so my read on this with that lens is that this sort of came in the kind of fallout of this huge success for the feminist movement and by really putting media scrutiny on women who were murdering their sexual partners, whether they were you know, in Roxy's case, you know, she's cheating on her husband or vill mcklly, like she's you know, portrayed as kind of this loose woman who's like living her own life and so demonizing those people in the

fall of a big feminist win in women's liberation kind of closely matches up with how those things tend to go. So I wasn't super surprised to know that. You know, it's very I think it would have been very easy in the early twenties to be like, well, look, feminism fucked everyone, like women are are murderers now, we gave women the right to vote and another killing Peo. Yeah, that was like, that was kind of my my read

on this period. But I mean, but I you know, that's not for sure, but that was either way, it seemed like women being murderers was so hot. It was so hot at that time, and especially in Chicago specifically for some reason. So that was what was going on historically, in the Cook County Jail in Chicago in the twenties, there was a section called Murderous Row where more than a dozen women were like all the coolest, most recent woman murderers were all just we're all hanging out being

detained their wild waiting to stand trial for murder. Most of them had been accused of killing their husband or lover then. So there were these two women in particular who were getting a lot of media attention because they were traditionally by Western beauty standards attractive. So this was Bulah, Beulah, Beulah, let's go with that, Beulah and On and Belva Gardner. These women, they were receiving fan mail, they were giving

each other makeovers in jail. I thought that was more interesting, Like that was something that I wish that they kind of focused more on in the adaptations, is the fact that, like I feel like in the adaptations, definitely Velma and Roxy are put into conflict, which makes sense in the story, but it sounds like the people they're based on were friends and like close friends, and I kind of am more interested in that angle of them being kind of

allied in this like similar fucked up situation from the beginning. But yeah, so you know, all these women were like giving each other pedicures and stuff, basically making themselves as pretty unpopular as possible, knowing that it was rare for the all male juries at the time to convict women, especially attractive women, of murder, even though even if there was like mountains of evidence against them, I will say, yeah, it seems pretty it seems like Beulah and Velva Um

did it seems certainly. So. Then Maureen Dallas Watkins, who was one of the few women reporters at the Chicago Tribune at the time, was assigned to report on murderous Row and it was assigned to her specifically because her editors thought that that particular subject of covering women awaiting trial for murder would be too boring for men to report on how wrong they were right, So kind of with the help of all of this press from Maureen Dallas Watkins on Beulah and Velva, they were not convicted

of murder. They were set free. And they did this because they kind of leaned into the defense of having been corrupted by jazz music and booze. So that's something

that we'll talk about a lot um. Yeah, like all things that are associated with personal freedom, which was not cool for women to be having, right, and then they kind of, as we see in the movie, they put on these personas of oh, no, I'm reformed, now I'm I'm I was a sinner, but now I'm I'm sweet and innocent, and I even have a baby on the way because this fake pregnancy thing that we see roxy Heart do and the movie is based on what Beulah and On actually did in real life to try to

garner sympathy from the public. So I was truly shocked at how close they're right. The Villa m Kelly stuff seems to be like somewhat fictionalized, like the whole sister thing I think is made up, but the yeah, roxy Heart and Beulah An are like one and the same, like down to like the mechanic husband who wasn't totally

sure what was going on right right exactly. So I have a quote here that I'll share, which, unless you have any other additional preliminary context that I think will lead into a discussion about kind of what's thematically happening in this movie. I think, Well, I think the only other thing I wanted to touch on was the fact that Marian Dallas Watkins so she like covers the story

in her twenties and releases it. I thought it was interesting, like she the play and the musical, But the play started out as like a pretty like heavy handed satire because it was a play that was running in Chicago about murders that had taken place in Chicago two years prior. Like everyone was watching it like it was I mean, obviously like an iconic, well crafted story, but it was like everyone knew exactly what this was about, and it was interesting too. I read a little bit about her life.

It didn't do a super deep dive, but just how her attitude towards her this play kind of changed over time where I think she started to feel as time went on, and she she like left public life in the forties but lived to I think the late sixties, early seventies or something like that, but as time went on, she sort of didn't want the play to be continued to be adapted, even though it was adapted into a movie with Ginger Rogers I believe in the forties called

Roxy Heart. But I think she's she started to feel like people are taking the wrong message away from this famous play I wrote, and I don't know if I really want to keep perpetuating this story. And so Bob Fossey approached her in the sixties and was like, I need to make this into a fossy Hands musical. It's an emergency. You need to let me do it, and she said no. And it wasn't until after she died

that he was able to get the rights. Because I think that money plus estate plus not living creator equals oh whoopsie, Daisy, I have the rights. So I think that it is like, I mean, am I glad that Bob Fosse scammed his way into the rights to this kind of but it is, but the ethics of that,

I was like, well, that's kind of sucked up. She said, she said no, Bob, she said no, Um, I don't know, bizarre right, that was the only other thing that I had that I was like, that's something, yeah, and that it kind of relates to this quote that I will share from an article on sci fi dot com hot entitled the real story behind Chicago's Mary murders is roxy Heart and vill mkelly. And this is speaking to the general atmosphere and what Marine Dallas Watkins was reporting on.

So quote, the press and the public ate up the gossip, the details on dresses, and the sob stories about bad men, booze and devilish jazz. Prosecutors began to think you couldn't convict a pretty woman in this town. As for Watkins, she believed her influence was he to the acquittal of both the Mary murderouses, as she felt the pair were

guilty and likely lying through their teeth. She had mixed feelings on that, so she wrote about it in Watkins went from reporter to Broadway playwright with Brave Little Women, a satirical stage play that would later be retitled Chicago. It was she who transformed a non gartner, their victims husbands, lawyers, peers and reporters, and two characters like Roxy Heart, Van m Kelly, Billy Flynn, Mary Sunshine and Go to Hell Kitty. She hoped this dark comedy would highlight how appearances and

sex appeal had become too important in the justice system. Unquote. So I think that's really interesting. I mean that's like that the such a bizarre journey for all of this to go on, And I think it's an interesting way too. And I think, you know, the ethics are certainly up for debate, because you could argue this is not necessarily her story to tell. Well, it's I'm sort of like,

I don't know, it doesn't bother me that much. I like it's because it's she's not claiming that it's the story of you and on she's you know, changing things. She's sad like I don't know, I think that that that it's really interesting how this got made and how I mean, I'm always interested in like how creator's opinions changed towards their own work once it's sort of out

of their hands. And the fact that like Mary Sunshine was I didn't even realize this until I was doing this research segment, but that Mary Sunshine was like this kind of amalgamation of reporters that Marie and Dallas Watkins thought were too easy on and kind of you know, eating up this bullshit from clearly guilty people. And also like a way of poking at herself, uh, for how she covered the story at the time, and almost like a way of I don't know, like giving the finger

to herself in her own work. It's very it's like complex ship because Mary Sunshine is noticeably the only woman reporting on these cases in the movie. So right, that's

very funny. Yeah, um, but to me that kind of just it's sort of the cornerstone of what this movie is about, which is that And this is something that's come up on different episodes for different movies that we've discussed in the past, but it explores the lengths that women sometimes have to go to in order to survive, which in some cases means like flaunting their sexuality, capitalizing on their quote feminine wiles, but also kind of simultaneously

demonstrating that they are exactly what society expects of a woman, especially at this time where oh my gosh, yes, I was seduced by you know, these sinister things like jazz and booze and like putting on like that veneer of weakness that wasn't actually there. Yeah, and then but but but what I've always wanted was a stable home where I can darn my husband's socks and iron his shirts and and have a baby and take care of the family.

And like these are all things that are like very obviously fabricated because that's what the public will eat up because of society's expectations of women. But I guess I'm just like, there is commentary on that in the movie.

I just I don't I don't, well, I don't even know really how I feel about it, because I'm like, but then, but these women were murderers, so right, like it's not so it's like that kind of hard because there are there are other examples of this type of thing, where like women have to kind of exploit societal expectations or kind of exploit their own sexuality to survive because they have no other choice. But they are otherwise, you know,

morally upstanding people and not murderers kind of thing. But I'm just like, well, these people are also they're doing that, but then they're also murderers, so they're a little harder to sympathize with. But again I'm still rooting for them.

So it's complicated. I have complicated feelings about it. It's that's what And I'm like, here I am in my little Chicago two thousand two cape, but like, yeah, and I feel like what saves it and and the fact that the source material was written by a woman tract for me for kind of this reason where what saves this for me is that it's based on something that truly happened, and so it's not it's not really I mean it is, it's not really a more reality tail

because it is kind of just like satire on something that was happening at this time. And everyone in this is terrible, Like there's no one of any gender in this movie, except for some people would argue Amos and the woman what is her name in Katerina who is truly profoundly innocent, Like those are the only characters that

you can you know freely. And I think Katerina is kind of like she's the character you can freely empathize with because she didn't do anything and she's being eaten up for because of this language barrier, because she's not really able to defend herself, and because she doesn't have any money, and so it's like that is like the purity character, but everyone else fucking sucks, and it's like doing what they need to do to get from point A to point B, and it's not like commendable behavior

at all. And I don't think that the movie is like endorsing the behavior either, Like I I do appreciate that the movie, I don't like, you can't help but root for Roxy and Velment at different points even though you're like, they definitely did it, but the way that they have to navigate get it, because it's like, first of all, you need to consider why did they do

it and how you know, completely inhospitable. And I don't even think that this is something that Maureen Dallas Watkins would even agree with because she seems to feel bad that she kind of like built up their personas and the way that she did, and clearly wasn't happy that they got away with murder. But but it's like contextually, it's like, Okay, why would women kill at this time? And whatever? There's a bajillion documentaries and podcasts about that

exact subject. But both Roxy and Velma's and and I mean, the whole cell blocked Tango number, with the exception of the one person who is innocent, is all about like women trying to like live their life the way they want to, being thwarted or deceived or lied to by men who feel entitled to their bodies or their time or their marriage or whatever it is, and then killing them.

Like so, I feel like the context is very clear of like it's not endorsing murder, but it is telling you, like, this is a period of time where I mean, it's like, what options does Roxy have if if her dream is to be a famous cabaret singer but she's got no money, just got to vote a couple of years ago, and you know, it's like, what are her options? I don't know?

And the same goes for really, I mean every woman in the in the story and I in what I what I really wish is that because in Cell Block Tango, and I think historically in the play as well, there are black women and women of color included in the cast, but you don't get to spend a lot of time with them, and you don't get to examine how there is I think that there is pretty solid commentary in this story of white women weaponizing how white women were

viewed at this time. They're weaponizing white fragility by the bursting into tears and just the things that you would commonly associate with, you know, traditionally attractive white girls at this time. But you don't really get to see the other side of that and how, you know, how would a black woman put on murderous row in Chicago be treated? You would imagine quite differently. And I feel like there's there. It sucks because there's I think that there's room for

more of those stories, especially you have. Do you remember the pop star Maya, She's in this movie. I remember Maya Maya. We were all there. I hope she's well, I don't really know what she's enough to but but you know, it's I don't know what my original point was. I just I think that you are given the context for why they're murdering without saying, hey, go out there and murder someone, which is a difficult line to toe, but I feel like the movie does it pretty well.

Sure well, that's my main criticism of the movie, where there is this focus on these attractive white women because that was the focus of what the press and the public and what they were obsessed with at the time and still now like and still now yeah, I mean,

the president has long been set for this. I would have liked to have seen and maybe were this to be adapted again today, we would get more focus on the women of color who were on murderous row, who again we see in the movie, but it's not explored at all. It's not explored at all. Okay, So there's there's one woman who her story is that she stabbed her jealous husband ten times because in like a bit of jealous rage, he was like, you're screwing the milkman.

He ran into her knife. He ran into her knife ten times. That character is played by Deirdre Goodwin Um. And then there's the character who is played by Maya, who had murdered a lover because he cheated on her. Even within that song, those little snippets of their story take up less screen time than yes, the white women's um so we get less about them. So I was like, Okay, who are these women? Is there? Are they based on real women who were on Murderous Row during this time.

I tried as hard as I could to find some information about that, but every article I found, which was you know, a lot a lot has been written about this, those articles, even ones that are written you know, within the past few years, still only focus on Beulah and Belva, Right, So I like couldn't find any information about who were the other women on Murderous Row? Were there women of color present, what were their stories, what were their names,

what were their crimes and situations? So I was just disappointed that there is just not a lot of information on that out there, probably because good records were not kept at the time about it, or if they were kept, they weren't widely reported on in the same way that these stories with Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that that also connects back to what we were talking about earlier, where Mama Morton is this incredibly dynamic, awesome character,

and we don't know anything about her back story, which is like such a frustrating and persistent trope surrounding black characters in a supporting cast, where it's like, why do we never see their back stories? And it's because these majority white writers and directors and creators, And I mean, this story from its or and all the way down is controlled by white people. They're not caring enough, you know.

And and so I totally agree with you, and I think that it's doubly shitty and a big missed opportunity. First because clearly there should be people of color who are involved behind the camera with projects like these, and certainly we're not to any significant degree for this movie.

But also because with Velmat and Roxy, you see like a master class in weaponizing white fragility, which would have made it all the more, you know, impactful to the story too, to really like call that out for what it is, because I feel like we can watch this now and be like, oh, that is like a classic white fragility thing for white women specifically to do in these situations, but it's more characterised. I think at the time I was more characterized. Is this is something women do,

and not specifically white women who are traditionally attractive. So yeah, I mean it's it's it's shitty because the talent is obviously there and the story has room for it. And you know, all you need is a fucking halfway decent archival researcher, and these stories exist. So where are they? You know, where are they? There were even so I not to brag or anything. Was a guest on a podcast entitled Women Who Kill, hosted by a friend of

the cast, Kai Choice. My episode was on a serial killer named Tilly Climax, a k Mrs blue Beard, who was living in Chicago in the nine twenties. Um, I think her crimes were committed like two years before Beulah and Belva were murdering their people. Yeah, she was ahead of the curve. She came from a poor Polish immigrant background. She was not considered attractive, which the papers commented on

when they were telling her story. Like, so basically anyone who wasn't like a middle class or upper middle class, conventionally attractive white woman was, like I guess, demonized in the way you would expect a murderer to be demonized. By the press. But because these two women were again considered attractive and came from backgrounds that you know, allowed them some privilege, they just exploited that and left everyone else in the dust. Basically, there's a first of all,

that story is wild. I'm gonna listen to that. That and and I love Kaispot. Yes, it's really good. It's one of my favorite uh walking pods. Um, I have

kind of a reverse story to that that. I wasn't able to super confirm this, but it does seem like the sorry her name is Katerina in the movie The Hungary, the young Hungarian woman was hung, So it seems like that story um was at least pulled in part with a very different ending from a woman named Sabella Nitti, who was an Italian immigrant who didn't speak a lot of English and much like you were just saying, she

was not considered traditionally attractive. This was also and I'm like, I don't know, deep in the hole on in Kathy podcast research, so whatever. At this time, you know, recent immigrants, even if they were white, were often considered unattractive in the nineteen twenties and would be kind of demonized for not having literally like wasp feet er. Anything that wasn't

wasp was not attractive. So Sibella Ninti was an Italian emigrant who was accused of the murder of her missing husband and she it doesn't seem like she did it. There was no evidence, she had no motive, there was no proof. But it was the kind of case where it's like these prosecutors need to win, so we're going to and she she got sentenced to death. She doesn't end up getting executed though, because she gets a lawyer kind of comes to her rescue and saves her by

giving her a makeover because she was characterized in the process. Look, you know, she's not attractive, she she doesn't speak English. You have all this all this stuff that is just like aggressively mothering her in order to convict her of a crime she didn't commit. And she's saved by a makeover and being and so that, I mean it feels super duper Billy Flynn of just like bat your eyes

at the jury. They're not smart enough to you know, if if you look the right way and you act the right way, you can manipulate their behavior, which is like I don't know, I mean like like we've been talking about. That's a really complicated topic because it's not like people should be able to get away with murder necessarily, right, Um, I think unless there's an abuser involved, and then I

don't really care. But um, but but but but the fact that it's there are so many real life examples from that era of that working, and so it's like, well, how toxic does a culture have to be to literally be able to get away with murder pretty reliably and consistently as long as you look the part like and that, I mean, yeah, that is something that I think this, um, this story does pretty well, although I do agree that it's not it doesn't go far enough in terms of

like showing different women's stories at all. Um. I didn't want to say really quickly. This is unfortunately the second time this year we have to talk about this. But speaking of looking the part, this is yet another movie that Renee Zellweger does a fabulous job in where so much of the coverage that she got around the time of this movie was hyper focused on her body. We we talked about this in our Bridget Jones episode earlier this year for the opposite reason, where Renee Zellweger. I

feel like I don't. I mean, to some degree, it just seems like unlucky timing on her part. But she has just been so aggressively scrutinized for every part of her body. It feels like at some point where during the early two thousands, it was very much a focus on her weight, because she had a normal body when

she played Bridget Jones, but everyone called her fat. She lost weight to play Roxy Heart and everyone said she looked sick, and no matter what she said herself about how she felt about her body and how she didn't like having her body commented on, like, no one listened, And so I wanted to just share there there is a whole a very well sourced Vulture article that came out a couple of years called a history of people commenting on Rene's Alwiger's face, because that was what it

became later, people aggressively scrutinizing her plastic surgery, which is just let her list the woman has two oscars? Can you chill out? Like anyways? Um, I wanted to share this quote from her. This is from around two thousand and one, when she was playing Bridget Jones. She said quote when the film was coming out, the question I was asked the most was regarding my weight. I was followed around Heathrow Airport by a guy who wanted to

take pictures of my backside. I don't understand the obsession. And then on the flip side, because Bridget Jones came out in two thousand one, Chicago came out in two thousand two, and Rene's aller. I mean, she's very thin in this movie, and and people were like, in the reviews for this movie, people were saying, you know, she's shockingly gaunt, and she's setting a dangerous precedent and all this stuff, and no one ever asked her how she

felt about it. It was just like baseless comments and whatever. And so she, you know, disputed the claims that she was unhealthily thin at the time. And it's just, I don't know, It's just another example of like, she gave an incredible performance, Like what is your like, shut the funk up, man, truly, So I just wanted to uh say that again, just leave Renee alone. She does a good job, she seems like a good person, she's very talented, she's got two oscars. Just let her. Just let her chill.

She has like a I heard I learned this on who Weekly as well. She has a Normi boyfriend right now and they're just hanging out on balconies together like good for Renee them love it. It's is this irony or I'm not sure how to classify this, but like the movie Chicago being about how women's appearance is so heavily commented on and publicized and like the topic of so much press. Again that's one of the main components

of this movie. And then for a bunch of people to turn around and then do that very thing to the actor's body, right like do you not do you? Do you hear yourself? It's I'm like, maybe Marie and Dallas Watkins was right, maybe as She's like, people clearly aren't getting what I'm trying to say here because it's like the same breath. No one's learned a damn thing

in eighty years. Yeah, yeah, It's like and unfortunately watching I mean these murder cases or nearly a hundred years old at this point, and we see this same dynamic exists between the press and the public and the spectacle like it's still alive and well, and like with the exception of like the communication channels basically unaltered, which is so depressing, and I'm like, God of all its it sucks that this is a timeless story, but it like

kind of is. Yeah, I wanted to shut out when, I mean this shout out is not the correct thing here, but just when when last sort of point on how whiteness and traditional attractiveness is clearly weaponized in this story. The phrase that came to mind and I had to sort of go back in my head and be like, where did I hear this? Where did this come from? Was the two pretty for prison? Have you heard that

phrase before? I don't think I have. It's a phrase that I couldn't remember when I when I first heard it, and I sort of basically it ties into I think you see it very present in Roxy's behavior, where she's like, you can't sentence me to death. I can't be in prison. I'm too pretty for prison. And it's it's this very given that Roxy is a murderer. I'm not pro prison at all, but it's given that she's a murderer. You know, she's trying to get away with it on the basis

of being traditionally attractive, white woman. Right, And so the too pretty for prison phrase comes from two thousand and five. It's based on a case that is absolutely horrific and I don't want to rehash it here, but it essentially comes down to a female teacher who sexually abused a student, and while on trial, that was the phrase that was I don't know if it was evoked in the courtroom, but that was the phrase that was connected to this case.

But all that to say, like Chicago is based on cases from this phrase too pretty for prison is it was a ascribed to similar behavior that was happening eighty years later, like it's it's depressing, that's some real Karen ship, Yes, Karen. And then something you know, it's white privilege. It's hot privilege. What's the phrase for that? You know what? I think? Yeah, we don't talk about hot privilege enough. I think as

a as a culture it is discussed. I don't know that we've we've discussed it on the show in depth, but it definitely does seem like it's at play in this story. Yeah, it is weird because, like, well, it also kind of speaks to the one of the double standards that are voisted on women, where You're expected to be extremely attractive and really sexy, but not too sexy because you don't want anyone to think you're a slut.

Like the exact line that they're towing here is like right, so it's like you like, you have you have to like, you know, look a certain way and adhere to every Western standard of beauty. But you also have to be a loyal and devoted wife, and you have to be gregnant with a baby and be ready to make a home for your husband and for your children, and to

iron his shirts and to do all that stuff. And that, to me is like the most effective thing that this movie accomplishes in terms of just like pointing that out, making that commentary. Similarly like the idea of oh, these these delicate women were seduced by these evil forces of of such evil things as a genre of music and alcohol, which yeah, just again the these such rigid gender roles and and standard that are placed on women in terms of like you can never misbehave, you can never drink

an alcohol. You have to also be really pretty and attractive, but you only can have eyes for your husband, and just like all of these standards, it's like the classic it's an impossible bar to clear. So many of their expectations are at odds with each other because it's to be demure, but you also have to be wildly sexy, and depending on the situation, you can be punished for being either of those things. And right and how yeah

like and how hot I mean whatever, like being traditionally attractive. Like. There's sides to that coin as well, where it's it's I think that I mean. Obviously, in some of the cases we just described, women who are considered to not be attractive, apparently you can just kill them, uh for

not doing murders. Um, that's an oversimplification. But but then on the other side, it's you know, women who do kind of fall into that traditionally attractive whatever are often hyper sexualized against their will and harassed, and so it's just, um, it's impossible. There's just so many ways to lose in this world. Uh, it's interesting. I just learned something that maybe smile please sure, sorry please still yelling? Um, well,

he's wishing you happy birthday. He's like, I love you, mama. Anyways. Jerry or Bach played Billy Flynn in the original Broadway production How Fun Is That? In the goodness and Cheetah Rivera played Velma Kelly like icons icons. So I was just happy to learn that Jerry Orbach and Richard Gear played the same part. I like that. I'd like that too. Um, Richard Gear kills it as Billy Flynn. He really is amazing,

And that's really him tap dancing. That's really him tap dance. Yes, I watched all the featurettes and he said it was kind of funny because it was like he had sung.

He he like had sung before. Um, and so, and I think that he and John c Riley were I think the main members of the cast that didn't have dance training that needed to dance, and they both tried so hard, and they both were talking about how they're like it's intimidating being in the same room with Rob Marshall he was in Cats and I can't even tap and like all this stuff. And then there's videos of like Rob Marshall like taking it really slow with John

c Riley and like it's just such wholesome footage. Um, that's so. I don't know. I just love when choreographers direct because it's like when you once you see like footage of a choreographer directing a musical movie. You're like, oh, yeah, how else would you even do that? Like what you're just gonna be like, You're like, if you can't do it yourself, don't tell me to do it. But Rob Marshall,

like he's fucking on it. He's doing all that jazz right next to Katherine's Ada Jones, And it's exciting that there is like a whole half hour making of documentary that's on YouTube as well that if you're a Chicago head, I'd recommend it because it's just such a blast. Who do you think Rob Marshall played in Cats when he got injured? Do you think it was like Mr Mustaphiles or rum tum Tugger? Thanks the question, which of the

Cats is doing the kind of movement? I mean, they're all kind of doing wild movements, but like, who is most likely to herniate a disc? I feel like that's some rum tum Tugger ship to be herniating a whole disk. Who's your favorite one again? With the pants and the suspender? My god, skin Ble Shanks. I feel like it could have Marshall. Skimble Shanks would have done a good Skimble Shanks. I wonder it doesn't his His Wikipedia page is very vague about it. They're just like he was in Cats

and herniated a desk. No, we're not taking any more questions at this time. We need more information. I'm like, okay, he was a Jelical I need more info which one, which one? It matters which jelical cat was he though he could he could have been Monchu Strap. You know, I don't know. There's a lot of cats that are at high risk for herniating a disk. Uh, So it doesn't really it's so funny. It's like, oh, members of the Cats, cats that could have her needed a disk.

That really doesn't narrow it down at all. They're all over the place. Um do anything else for this movie, I mean, we touched on it briefly, but just the relationship between Roxy and Velma being highly antagonistic for most, if not all, of the movie, because even at the end when they are working together, we yeah, I get why they don't like each other, right, yeah, because well, so like Velma is mean to Roxy at first for

what appears to be a petty reason. She's well, I don't even know, it's maybe it's not even any reason. She's just mean to her because she's like the newbie there. Unless I'm misreading or misremembering something, I don't think you are. No, I think that it's it's I was really interested to learn that the two, like the too real life people, seemed to get along just fine, because it seems like the the logic that this story is subscribing to. And

maybe I'm making too many excuses for it. I mean, it's like they are just our two female leads are being put at odds the way I guess I I had like solidified it in my head over the years that maybe I need to question a little bit, But like was that I don't know the the reason that women are often put in these antagonistic situations, and the internal logic of this story is there's only room for one woman in the headlines at a time, and so it's like this, it almost feels like they're viewing it

as a competition, and like why would I you know, it's almost like reality show logic of like I didn't come here to make friends. I came here to be the most famous murderer ever or whatever. That was kind of but it was like, but that's not even what happened in real life, Like that was what happened in real life, I would sort of let it go. But that's not so why add that in Nor is it what happens at the very beginning of their antagonistic relationship.

I could maybe understand if right when Roxy got there and she was like already the hottest, like the talk of the town kind of thing, right, she's not at first, where then Velma would feel threatened and that would motivate her being cruel to Roxy. But that's not what happens.

Roxy doesn't take Velma's spotlight until later. So it first Velma is mean to Roxy for no reason, and when Roxy is like mean back, that does seem more motivated, because that's sort of like a retaliation thing, like, well, you were mean to me, I'm going to be mean to you now. But you're right, Yeah, the beginning is not very motivated by much. Yeah, and then they continue

to not get along. But then it's all just it's I see what you're saying in terms of because we you know, we've we've talked about this to a lot where like especially when men right women being extremely antagonistic and like petty to each other, they never consider the context of why that would be because if that does happen, the context is usually well, women are only afforded so many spaces or our spots or there's only room for

one woman. So women do feel like they have to be competitive and antagonistic toward each other too, again like just secure their survival. But that isn't what's happening it right, it does. It does become that way with because yeah, like Roxy takes Vilma's spotlight and then so they're kind of like constantly battling for the spotlight. And then when when the Roxy starts like steal Velma's like court deceptions or whatever, like the garter and the enemy, Like I

get why they have become enemies. But but that is a good point that it's not super motivated, especially because Velma is like who Roxy wants to be at the beginning, and you do see like, yeah, I mean I think the Velma is like being I don't know, I mean I think there's like there's multiple ways to look at it where it's like, yeah, Velma is kind of is like pretty arrogant at the beginning of the story because she is the famous one at the beginning of the story,

and why would I talk to you, I'm the famous one, which Roxy then does the exact same thing to her later on. It doesn't feel good. That's sort of Velma's arc of like this is very temporary, and I am a fool. Well if I think that, you know, I can just you know, be a famous murderer forever. So and I and I do like how it ends, because

in real life it's like kind of a bummer. I think, like Beulah died of like tuberculosis, tuberculosis like pretty soon after getting like so that I'm glad that they didn't do that, but I do, like, I mean, just to tie up the story, how they end up working together and realizing that they it's like they're still terrible people, right, like they're still murderers, but but that they're stronger as a unit than they were separately, and that they needed

to just in the way. That's like the world very much wanted to forget them and move on to the next thing, and they had to find a way to remain relevant so they could continue to live the kinds of lives they wanted to live. Where it was like, you know, Roxy could have gone back with Amos, Velma could have settled down and and you know, lined up with the societal expectations of the time. Neither of them want that, and so they find a way to put

their differences aside and make that happen for themselves. And I think that that is like interesting. It doesn't make it noble and necessarily because they still fucking suck, But I but I like and and then the end, I mean, it's almost like a little ham fisted watching it now, but we're like, Roxy's like, this couldn't have happened without you, because it's like, yeah, no one would give a shit about them, if, you know, if the media circus wasn't

the way that it is. So I don't know, Yeah, their relationship, I think that I think that the story

would be kind of generally improved and would work. Could you could you could say the exact same things that this story is trying to say and have them get along and so adding in that conflict even if, like you're saying, like even if they I don't know, betray each other and piss each other off later, which makes sense in the context of the story in the in the historical period, seeing them get along, I don't think you lose anything And if in fact, it might even

raise this stakes if they start as friends and then it's like this media circus of well, only one of you can be famous enough to not be convicted of murder, Like that's higher stakes. It doesn't seem like Roxy has any female friends in her life, and it seems like Velma's only friend she killed because that was her sister, and so there's I was like, Okay, maybe that is actually a stronger story choice, because then you're not just losing you know, your your life, You're losing your only friend,

your friend. That's basically the plot of All About Eve, where that's true. They start out on good terms and then I don't even remember the character's names now, but one of them starts to get jealous of the other one, and then the start well, one of them is definitely Eve. It's the one that isn't Bettie Davis, right, Um, And I just don't remember which one is Eve? Is Eve Bettie Davis or she was the younger woman? Okay, right,

you're right, I'm butchering remembering. But I love that movie, and yet I don't know what the characters ain't are? Um story of my life? But yeah, I mean that now that we're kind of talking that through, that would be a more interesting choice. And then it would, and then you can keep the ending as is and have them reconcile and get that friendship back by being like, oh, that media circus was bullshit. Let's take this on the road and make money off of all these losers who

vaguely remember that we've murdered people. Like, yeah, whatever, that rocks fine. I like that better. Yeah, this just felt like the writer was like, it's a movie, we have to throw more tension in it. Where could a source of tension be? Oh, of course between two women, because women are petty and jealous and bitter, right, And it's not like this story lax tension, like like there's kind

of no need for it. It's like there's an incredible amount of tension between Roxy and basically everyone that she's ever met, because she's a pretty selfish and abrasive person. Um that said, and I mean it's again, it's like she's such a tough character because she fucking sucks. But like you're like, okay, you know, to an extent, I get it, and I do like like the moment where Roxy is it works against her, but she's so quick to call out Billy Flynn for being a Charlatan asshole,

and it blows up in her face. But it is kind of cathartic to see, you know, someone who's so clearly in it for money and cloud and doesn't actually care about the women that he's defending, to see her just be like, what fuck you? You know you're fired?

I don't know, um speaking of people who are in it for the money, I thought, because I didn't super remember this movie until going back to prep for this episode, Mama Morton, she is sort of presented at first as like a big hard ass, and I thought, oh, I wonder if there's going to be a lot of antagonism between her and the prisoners, because that also would have felt like a unexpected choice to introduce tension into the situation. But I was kind of surprised that there isn't much

tension there. Like she at first she's like, oh, something bothering you? Well, I don't give a ship. Also, I love money. But then after that, like she seems pretty willing to help the people who have money, so she's like a capitalist, and we don't love to see that super capitalist feel like she I mean, I feel like she's just kind of a stand in for like, I'm

on the side of whoever is paying me. She's she's not really on the side of the prison industrial complex because she's accepting money from murderers, but she'll take a check from the prison industrial complex. Like yeah, she's just like a she she's lawless. It's interesting that they cast a black woman in that role. I agree, considering the prison industrial complex disproportionate effects and abuses black people. So that was confusing. Yeah, I do think that it is

uh telling and bizarre. I mean, it's it's what I mean, It's like, can I picture anyone in this movie except Queen Latifa in this role? I know, like she's fucking incredible. And what is interesting based on a rapid google we just paused the podcast to do that this role was generally played by white women up until Queen Latifa was cast in this role, and since then the role is generally played by black women. I believe that the same actress has been playing Mom and Morton on Broadway for

some time. Yeah, a famous black Broadway actress. I don't know Broadway actresses. I'm sorry, um, but but all that to say yeah, that, uh, that doesn't seem to be in the d n A of the part. But then gradually, because of Queen Latifa's casting and performance, became kind of integral to the part. Yeah. As of so for the last ten years or so, Mom and Morton has been played by black actresses on Broadway. Um, yeah, not an ideal part too, right, I mean, I love Queen Latifa.

She steals every scene she's in that part where like good, she's telling Roxy, oh you're we're actually taking you to the special section murderous row, and then Roxy's like, oh is that nicer? And then it was a look to Moreton, like looks over her shoulder to like a prison guard or something, and it's just like this bitch basically right and there. I mean, I yeah, I do as far as that character goes, and I think that your point

is extremely valid. But her like lawlessness of like she buys into the Roxy hype, but then the second it's not working in her favor anymore, she's like the blonde wig is in the trash and you know, her allegiances with whoever can make her the most money. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, do you have anything else? I think that is this movie does pass the Bechtel test. I'm sure of it. Yes, Oh, it's super does They're often they're often talking about killing men,

but for us that has the test. But but even without it, I mean, it does pass plenty of times, between Velmot and Roxy, between Roxy and Mama Morton, between Velmot and Mama Morton, between Um. Actually there's a good question. I don't know how many of the prisoners are actually named. I don't think that many. Yeah, if any, because I'm racking my brain and I don't know if we get names for an even not let me fact check that. I mean, it's possible that it exists in the state.

I don't know in terms of adaptation, but I don't believe you learn their names in the um in the movie. You know so. But but that said, it does pass. I think it also passes between Mary Sunshine and Roxy. Like there are a number of dynamic, highly motivated female characters who talk to each other about all sorts of ship in this movie. But as far as our nipple scale in which we rate the movie examining it through

an intersectional feminist lens, this is another tricky one. While it is commenting on and providing satire on these like double standards that are foisted upon women. It makes the same mistake of only focusing on the narratives of middle class, conventionally attractive white him in, which is also what the media was doing at the time. So I like, again, the precedent was set, so I understand that that's sort of why the adaptations went that way as well, But

I don't like it. I would it would be more interesting to me, For example, if dynamics were explored in terms of, yes, there are these attractive white women who are exploiting the privilege that they have to get exonerated from their crimes that they are clearly guilty of, versus the women of color who were right alongside them, who didn't have those same privileges to exploit, and how what like, what are their outcomes? I'd like to know. So I think that, um, you know, in an ideal world, the

movie would have explored that more. But that's also not what people in two thousand two were really concerned about doing. Yeah, it's it's a bummer, But if this were to ever be adapted again, and you know, it seems like this movie gets adapted every forty years, or something. So yeah, against against the wishes of the person who wrote the play. Go figure right, because it's all it was also a nineteen twenties seven I want to say, Cecil be Silent movie. Yeah,

who I wasn't able to track down. It seems like kind of a rare I don't know, I didn't I wasn't able to find it. Yeah, I mean, it's just like a super popular story and unfortunately it's like, I mean, it's still relevant. But if I completely agree that it's you know, kind of begging to be updated and modernized, and the issues that it's like, you know whatever, it's extra frustrating because it's like all either the source material and the characters are there, you're just not using them.

You're not exploring their right exploring them. They're just kind of left there. We only know that a woman stabbed her husband ten times and another woman. Good for her, and it's good for but I need more information, yeah, exactly. So um, for those reasons, I'll give the movie a three. It's getting some extra points because it is a movie

I very much enjoy. It is very watchable. The song and dance numbers are spectacular, So three nipples and they go to the women whose stories have been unrepresented, revolving around this like microcosm of lady murderers in the jazz era of Chicago. What about you, Jamie, I'm going for I think that this movie is in this story are

doing so much. I completely agree with you that, for for all this story does to examine, you know, kind of weaponized white fragility, Um, it does not examine the issues that women of color were facing during this time specific and it's it does come down, you know, particularly because this story is commenting on the prison system to some extent, and the prison system in the US, especially

disproportionately affects black people, specifically black men. And there's and and it's not like we know anything about A. Diggs's character, and he's the only black man who appears in the

whole movie. So I do think that there's absolutely issues there that if this were to be updated again, and as much as I don't really care for like the rebooty culture, I would be I would be down for another and updated version of Chicago because there is so much there, and um, I think that particularly if people of color were included in in the production behind the camera, there's so much to work with, and there could be a lot more examined, so that, I mean, and that

and the Weinstein involvement I think are the main things that are going against this movie for me. But I just think that this movie is doing so much cool stuff in terms of showing us some truly like despicable across the board female protagonists that you still deeply understand why they're doing what they're doing. You're given the proper historical context for who they are and what they're doing.

And and it's I mean, I I don't think that there's a lot of movies that are like fine to watch, that are massively successful, that examine topics like this effectively, that examine topics like you know, why were these women driven to commit murder? And I think that it's pretty clear what drives them. It's the you know, oppressive expectations

of the men that run the world around them. I can't really think of the movie that better kind of indicts this inflammatory American media culture that has just gotten worse, you know, a hundred years out from this in a

really engaging, funny, smart way. And I and I like that that Velma and Roxy end up uh it's kind of it's like a depressing but positive ending where they are able to they have to kill and lie and do a hole this fucked up ship to do it, but they are able to finally kind of live their lives the way they wanted to and in a way that they should have just been able to. But in order to do it, all this fucked up stuff happened,

had to happen. Yeah, I mean, it truly is for me, mainly that women of color are not given the narrative importance that they deserve in this story. But I think that you see also Lucy Lou like she's in the

movie three minutes basically a cameo. But I do think that there are a lot of different kinds of women that are highly motivated, that are making their own choices, that are fucking up, that are succeeding, that very thoroughly understand the tools of oppression being used against them and spinning them in their advantage to get away with some

funked up stuff. And you don't see that kind of story with women very often, I feel like, especially in like historical movies, and so I just I think this movie is doing so much that in this musical in general. I like that it's adapted by um, that the source material is from a woman, and that the story is still generally honored. I like that there's a lot of queer representation in the production of this movie, although it

is very white. Um. I just I don't know. I think that this movie is doing a lot that even current movies aren't able to do. And I just like enjoy when a movie is able to say a lot without feeling like you're getting bashed over the head with a frying pan. And I think that this movie is a good example of that. Uma and any movie that is fun and funny and musical and draws the conclusion that humanity is a lost cause is my favorite kind of movies. So I'm gonna give it four nipples, and

I'm going to give nipple to Queen Latifa. I'm going to give a nipple to Richard Gere because he's my crush. I'm going to give a nipple to Katherine Data Jones because she's my other crush. And I'm gonna give the final nipple to Lucy lou Hell. Yeah, well, Jamie, happy birthday, Thank you, Thank you for watching this movie for me. I love it so much. Of course, where can people follow you? Jamie Wow, I get my birthday flugs. Listen

to ack Cast. It's uh listen to ack Cast. It's still coming out right now, and it will be I think it will be releasing its final episode if I'm working on schedule, uh next week. It's an in depth look at the Kathy comic strips and kind of what they say about the time they appeared in and I was able to use a lot of research I did for that podcast to have this discussion today. And there's episodes about movements of feminism and how deeply flawed and

centered on middle class and above white women. Uh they were there. I just finished working on an episode that's all about the formation of American beauty standards and how mired they are in imperialism and colonialism and white supremacy and all. I mean. It's a fun podcast because it's about Kathy comic strips, but it's also a lot of

still suppressing serious ship as well. So uh yeah, that's if you want to give me a birthday present, give the battle Cast five stars on iTunes and listen to act Cast because I worked hard on it, Yes, and give a cast five Stars as well. While you're at it, might as well at hurt Wow. Jamie Well, I love you dearly. I wish you the happiest of birthdays. I'm so glad we do this show together. Yeah, we do

almost five years, baby, I know. I hope to I hope that we're in the same city again soon so that we can actually see each other and hang beginning of September. Um you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at bectel Cats. You can go to our Patreon ak Matreon subscribe for five dollars a month. It gets you two bonus episodes every month at patreon dot com, slash becktel Cast. And then we've got merch. Tell us

about the merch, Jamie Well. You can buy it and it's at de public dot com, slash the backdel Cast. Go ever, get the merchant if you're so inclined, it's a blast, it's a blessing. It's a gift for you to have merch to consume products, because as we live in a society, then you know, get some or don't. We won't know the difference. We truly won't, We truly profoundly won't. And that's Chicago bye,