Batman Returns with Karen Han

for mayor. But but if it's if things like go south, even the smallest bit, the first little snaffhoo I encounter, I will then pivot and threaten to kill everyone's son, all of the small children. Oh boy, does he want eighty quickly on that one? It is wild. Um. I'm trying to figure out who I'm most spiritually connected to. I love I love Catwoman, but like, I don't know

if I could do what Catwoman does. I do feel very connected to Christopher Walkin's big old son, you mean Chip, who also talks like Christopher Walkin in his two lines of dialogue. This is what I wanted to say. I'm so sorry to interrupt it earlier, but literally, as soon as they started talking, like, I completely forgotten that part of his character is that he sounds like his father, and so they're like get await that just run And

I'm like, oh, he's like doing a walk In impression. Yeah, the idea that that would be a hereditary trait is so funny. Or also like begs the question of like how long did he spend only with his dad, so that he's like, oh, that's like the normal way of talking, like talk. Yeah, I had so many questions about the sun, but the Sun was just like damseled time and time again. And we don't talk in this community enough about damseling. Christopher Walkins, big old son, his large adults. Yes, it's

a disturbing trend in meeting. It's a very harmful trope and I won't stand for it. Oh my gosh, I think that I am team large Adults Son. But also there's but I'm also team the clown that's like, hey, penguin, are you sure we want to steal everyone's son? And then just gets shot immediately. There's so many goods. I'm also on the side of the stilts clown that gets knocked over by the batmobile. God, this movie fucking rules. It's the batmobile just has devices, specifically for knocking over

people on stilts. He's thought through everything, Yeah, every contingency. He's like, we gotta have something in the batmobile for this. He's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, Alfred, what if And it's gonna sound wild, but what if I needed to feed a clown on stilts? We have to be ready.

I really, I really don't think I appreciated just how much work Alfred has to do until this movie specifically, and also like I'm sure we'll get to this, but they at the end when Batman picks up a cat, you can see it in Alfred's face where he's like, well, I know he's not going to take care of that thing, So that's my cat now, Like I'm going to have to do everything for this cat. Yeah, who's scooping the litter at the end of the days? Are not Bruce Wayne? Alright?

Oh my gosh. This okay, Well, let's just get into it. Welcome to the Becktel Cast. My name is Jamie LOFTEV. My name is Caitlin Darante, and this is the show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Becktel test simply as a jumping off point, which of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist

Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. Originally conceived as a just kind of one off joke in Alison Bechtel's comic Likes to Watch Out For, has since been kind of co opted into the media metric that we based an entire show on where Wow, yeah calling us out? Um we Our version of this test is as follows.

Two people of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man, and ideally it's a narratively significant conversation, not just like a throwaway exchange. Controversially, I think when Michelle Fiver talks to her cats, we know is a woman because they're like hu, they're communicating. All right, Well that's it for this episode

where yeah, We're done. I feel like the nonverbal, like the nonverbal communication is strong and and could it be more narratively impactful? No, no, brings her back to life kind of amazing. That's pretty big, huge, Okay, so we are we are covering up. Batman returns a Christmas movie that came out in June. I thought was kind of interesting. But in any case, let's get into it because clearly we are at the crossing with thoughts, so let's get our guests in here. We must also cat on my

literally fly is right. I really whenever Flee is represented in movies, it means a lot to me. He was sitting in my lap the whole time, riveted. He loves a movie cat as he should. That's wonderful. So Flee is our honorary guest, but our real guest for this episode is culture writer and screenwriter Karen Hahn. Hello, Hi, I'm so excited to be here and also so excited to talk about this movie with you guys, because again, I think we're all going like fully feral as Catwoman

would want. Yeah, we're so excited that you sent us because we were we reached out to Karen being like, hey, we want to do you know, it's it's holiday movie block, and I don't think that we've ever like brought this movie up, even though it's overtly a holiday movie. Yeah, I mean the thing I think just because like the iconography of Catwoman and the Penguin are so strong, like you tend to forget that there is like Christmas and Gotham.

And also I feel like they forgot about that again, as you say, like they put it out in summer. Basically they were I think they were like, we'll have our like superhero Ted Poole. But then it's like, oh, it's like actually a Christmas movie. But I mean that's now when I watch it. I will watch it when it's cold, right. It feels like that's how people view it now. And it's also like such an it's like an anti Christmas movie too. It's so fun. It's a

perfect film. It just gets better every time I watch it. It really does. So what's your relationship your history with the movie, Karen, I Well, it came out the year I was born, so I did not watch it in theaters or around the time when it debuted. But I watch it sometime in the last ten years, which I know is not a super specific time frame. But that said, it must have been post like Nolan Batman um, because I know, like I started, I watched these like after

I saw the Christian Bail movie. But then watching this, I was like, holy Cannoli, like this is really really good. And also this and The Batman that precedes it with Jack Nicholson at the Joker. It's just like there's so much great stuff going on in both movies that it's kind of shocking. And I was saying this to Caitlin before we recorded that. It's like, I can't imagine any exact green lighting this movie today, Like you would describe some of the elements and be like, no, no, no, no

no no, we can't do that. That's too silly, or that's too on the nose, or that's just weird. But that's what makes this movie so fun and so memorable. I'm realizing this is the third Batman movie we've covered on the podcast, because we did the nineteen nine Batman like six years ago. One of our first episode was a really long time ago. I was I was like, how did I see this movie? Originally? I was like, oh, it was literally for this show the shows Brown ye yeah, yeah,

yeah yeah. And then we've covered The Dark Night a few years ago, and so this is our this is our third Batman episode, and I'm not mad about it. I mean, if there's one thing about Batman movies is that there's five hundred million of them, and I like a lot of them. So Jamie, what's your relationship with Batman? Returns? So I had not seen this movie before. That's so exciting. It was really Um, I have had a hell of a couple of days just like watching this movie. Uh

two and a half times. I really yeah, I really loved it. I feel like every time I say I haven't seen a popular movie, I'd like to remind Bethel cast listeners that when we started this show, a big thrust of the promise was that Caitlin has seen a lot of movies, and I had not seen a lot of movies. Over the years we it doesn't come up as much, but um, there's still I still haven't seen a lot of movies. Um, but this, yeah, I've never

seen it before. But I really enjoyed the first Tim Burton Batman that this was like hailed as like one of the best superhero slash just sequels in general, And yeah, I totally agree with you, Karen, Like it's I don't know, like this is like Tim Burton allowed to like Tim Burton out at the peak of his Tim Burton is with like the biggest budget possible, and I just but the thing, it's like he nails it, Yeah, like it's so it was really I think that, like I mean,

and this is not an original observation by a long shot, but it's it's so like fun to watch a superhero movie that's like fun to watch, and you kind of forget that they were supposed to be fun to watch. And I like a lot of like serious superhero movies, like I enjoyed, you know, Robert Pattinson Batman, but it's not I wasn't laughing, you know, and I wasn't supposed to be laughing. But like, this was so fun and

such a like cool otory kind of movie. I loved all the behind the scenes stuff that was that they had real penguins. They have real penguins and animatronic penguins and people dressed up as penguins. They had every kind of penguin's wild It was so and then I read um, I just was like, how did we end up with the circus? I had a theory and then I checked

it and I was right. I was like, I bet that Tim Burton was just like I just want a circus because you're like, a circus is very obviously not necessary to the plot, and it was I guess that it was originally written as a band of performance artists, and Tim Burton's like, that's going to have to be a circus, honey, I won't do it with the clowns. It's gotta be back flipping clowns. A lot of them are going to have machine guns. They wrote out Santa

with mischine guns, which would have been awesome. But yeah, I just I fell in love with this movie a million percent. It's so good. And also I brag just saw Danny Elfman in concert a couple of weeks ago, so I was like triple pumped because I forgot how great the scores to his Batman movies are so good. He's such a weirdo and like the best way possible. And also like one of those composers where whenever you're listening, you're like, oh, that's Danny Elfman. Like he makes no

effort I think to like blend in. He's just like here in it, here's Danny, and you're like, here's Danny. Danny Elfan loves a horn. He loves a French horn and he loves it. He loves one of those. Yeah, my second favorite Danny Elfman's core right next to of course Spider Man two. Oh my god, his best and

the best of your movie. I also wanted to say, I think this is the first time that I can say I'm following in Alfred Molina's footsteps to some degree to give him that he was I think when when it was a nun that he was going to be on this podcast, I like started crying, like I lost my mind. Alfred Molina is our friend, and yeah, I was a guest on this podcast. Famously are esteemed incredible. Haven't heard from them since, but all good, and we

we sold your on. But yeah, I hadn't seen this movie before and I absolutely love it and I can't wait to introduce it into my holiday rotation. Yeah, Caitlin, what's your history with Batman Returns? I saw it for the first time, probably as a freshman in college. I was like, Oh, there's all these Batman movies I missed when I was a kid. I gotta watch them, And so I saw. I watched all four of the ones from the late eighties into the nineties. It's a fun time.

Batman Returns is easily my favorite one, and I would rank this probably my number two superhero movie of all a time behind behind uh Spiderman into the Spider verse. Oh see, I would put it Spiderman two is always going to be number one for me. But this is like top whatever, top of the list to percent pile ten out of ten on Caitlin's rompo meter because Spider versus kind of unbeatable in a Whalso, yeah, but yeah,

incredible movie. I love it so much. There's lots to discuss, like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to dive in the beginning with why do they have a baby cage at their house there? Do you feel like, oh, they like went onto craigslist or like rich craigslist or whatever, and we're like, we require a little baby cage if anyone knows where we could get one of those, or they like hired someone to make it after they saw that their baby had little webby hands. They called their good

to Blacksmith. They're like, they commissioned. They've got a guy, for sure. They definitely have a guy. It scares me to think what rich people have access to. But anyway, but this movie talks about that so much. This I was so surprised at how deep into like social commentary this in a way that like, yeah, I mean, I guess I wouldn't say it doesn't feel it just like fits into the story very naturally in a way that sometimes I feel like it's not like a here's the

moral of our story kind of thing. It's just like it's naturally baked into it, woven right in. Yeah. I love it. So, yeah, I love this movie. I'm so excited to talk about it. And um, should I do the recap and we'll go from there. Yeah, Okay, there's gonna be a lot of interjections because every frame of this movie, I have something, there's something they have to be said about everything. Okay, so let's take a quick break first and then we'll come back to recap. So

we'll be right back, and we're back. I mean, it is wild to open your movie in the way that this one opens, where it's basically like a silent sequence of these two very rich people deciding that they don't want their baby anymore and then throwing it into the sewer. You've got a rich regnant lady, yeah, screaming because her baby doesn't look the way she wants it to look. They put it in a cage, the baby eats a cat, and then they throw the baby in the river, which

is wildly as it was. As the movie was going on, I was like, oh my god, was the baby eating a cat foreshadowing of him phasing off with Catwoman? I think maybe? So. Also I was like, what is this the creature from Shape of Water eating a cat also in this movie? So and if he's not, he should be. Um, okay, so we see this happen. Then we cut to thirty three years later. So Danny Devita supposed to be thirty three in the movie. Yes, okay, that made me laugh.

Actually that's a really good point. Also, I can see my audio peaked, like, right, that's a really good question, big, big question. I guess Penguin people age differently. Oh yeah, he was like almost fifty already by the time. Yes, this came out right, Yeah, I think so if you live in the sewer age like a president is what it is. Actually, you're right, Like he's got a lot of city miles, a lot of road miles on him. Like he's not lived an easy life. No, I get it,

he's had it rough. So it happens. Yeah, it's really funny. Yeah, so he's he's dwelling in the sewers, people seem to know about him, or there's rumors about his existence. This you know, half man, half penguin person. It kind of had Phantom of the Opera vibes. Yeah, absolutely, but like more charming in a way. Also, his whole just his underground water layer is like straight out of Phantom of the Opera. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like in a

different world. You're like, oh, I could I could see myself getting horny for the penguin, you know, in a different world. I mean I was. I was kind of horny for Colin Farrell penguin, but only because I knew who was in there. Well, also like he was he was funny, like the funniest part of the movie arguably when they show him like the crime scene pictures. He's like, oh come on, I was like, absolutely, yeah, he kind of he kind of posted me pulled out a little

bit on that one. I liked it, but I don't say I feel like I am like I am. I love I love this penguin. I would let him into my house, no question. I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I would. I would vote for him for mayor it well before the pivot, but not post pivot. Before I got. There's so many elements, I mean, and there's like stuff about the penguin that we definitely need to like talk about when when the moment comes. But there's

a lot to unpack. But his whole like I think, like coming off the l a mayoral race, so you're like, oh, yeah, just a guy trying to buy the seat of mayor um and almost doing it. And I was like, is this going to be Rick Caruso's pivot? I kind of just hope he goes back to building malls literally why. I watched this with my partner last night and he was like, oh, like I would vote for the penguin over Rick Caruso, And I was like, You're right, I would too, Honestly, at least he's got a story. Yeah,

he's much like sympathetic and he's not like rich brain pilled. No, he's he's so quick to go back to the zoo. Ultimately, his loyalties lie with the zoo. The zoo a problematic entity all its own, but who knows that better than the penguin exactly what I mean, Like, I guess I assume he's like freed all the penguins that work for him, like even liberated them from the zoo, right, I think, yeah, But then he uses them as ponds and his little um. That's,

you know, destroy a Gotham scheme. I am very conflicted about this because he does that but only arguably in a moment of extreme desperation, and then he is really like caring of them, and then they are very caring of him in turn, like they become they know to do, like, oh ship, we gotta be pall bearers now, and like they know to do. That's he makes me cry. I'm not like siously makes me cry. They make the animatronic penguins frown. I paused it. I was like, how is

this penguin frowning? This is wild? Like yeah, I thought that was like it was unclear. I was like, the penguins kind of have like some Minions vibes where you're like, oh my god, they just are like invested there. But I understand where you're coming. He's crew. I'm just always looking for who's the grow of the movie here. I mean, all throughout my recap is just full of Minions references. So thank god, Oh terrific cool. Okay, Sorry sorry for

derailing immediately. We have a lot of thoughts about the penguins, specifically, we'll get to them. Yeah, yeah, we'll wait. We'll be so good, no worries. Okay. So then we meet Selina Kyle played by Michelle Peiffer, who is the assistant to a prominent businessman and like energy mogul Max Shrek played by Christopher Walkin, And now my blood pressure is skyrocketing.

You're just like, oh, there's a character named Shrek. My favorite quote that because I was like, okay, you know, look, Shrek called sure, it's come it's gone, it's come back. My favorite one was it's nice to see you out in the real world away from Shrek. I'm like, I feel like I could relate with that. People should. I wish someone would say that to me. I would go on a date with them that said, this is an extremely Shrekkian movie. We got Shrek, we got minions, we

got it all, we got clowns. There's so much what don't we have? Okay, So Max Shrek gives a speech to the people of Gotham during a Christmas tree lighting event, but he's interrupted when a bunch of goons or minions think about that aka the Red Triangle gang. You need to get like a Minion soundboard whatever you mentioned it. It's just it's like not the air horn noise. But I actually don't really know what I I mean. It sounds like, but oh well, what don't they sound like that's a

good you know, nana bello, bellow banana, etcetera. I'm learning so much. It's like the time of year holidays. You're like, oh, my Spotify wrapped list is gonna really bumm me out soon. Mine's always like horrendous, so bad, right, Like it's if you're proud enough to share it, it's you don't have an interior life. It should be really embarrassing. I feel like, yeah, I definitely share it, like for public shaming purposes, right, as a way of holding yourself accountable. Yeah, here's what

I did, I guess. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's it's very possible because I played it a lot as a joke, and then it's such a short track that it comes on a lot. But there's a track on my like go to playlist that's the Minions singing the Universal theme song. But I think I probably listened to

it three hundred times. It oh, a few years ago, my most played song was the Lonesome Cowboy credits song from Toy Story four, was like, this is song what happened to you that year that you were really But I also think that once I had stepped away from my computer and left it on repeat without knowing it. So that did check up the numbers. But that's not to say that I didn't listen to it a lot, because I definitely didn't. I gotta, really, I got to

revisit it. I can't conjure. What does it sound like? He was aloneesome, cowboys beautiful? I'm crying there. I'm getting tried. It's all about making friends. I've never sounded worse on a podcast. Disagree, No, this is this is raw and uncut. Yeah, all right. So the Indians, so Penguins minions show up to re cavoc on the city. So the city lights up the bat signal to summon Batman, of course, played by Michael Keaton, who shows up and stops the minions.

He also saves Selena Kyle, who is being terrorized by one of the minions. I know I said that we would be so good dirty Custom recapt but number one. I pointed this out again to Gala before the before recording already, but I wore my Michael Keaton shirt specifically

for this recording. There's a um And also the shot of him when the bad signal is lit is like one of the best shots I've ever seen, where it goes off on the wall of Wayne Manor and then like he stands up in front of it and you're like, it's just so good, It's so good, amazing. It also revided. I was like, oh, yeah, superhero stories like it's fun when they're very simple too, because you're like, what is

Bruce Wayne in the middle of doing. Is he just like hoping that someone will commit a crime so he has something to do. He's just sitting there, He's just hanging out. There's not a light on in the room. There's no evidence as to him having hobbies. No, No, I think that that's a beautiful I was like, let me give the scriptway too much credit and be like, well, maybe that's them saying that, you know, billionaires have no interior life. They're all essentially sitting in a dark room

at all times. I mean, yeah, I think you're right, but who am I to castones? I also do that mark like, yeah, people of all classes can sit in a dark room. It's a very egalitarian. Yeah, it's a great equalized right, yap wow. Okay, So during this havoc that the minions are unleashing Max, Shrek is kidnapped by the Penguin, who, of course is played by Danny de Vito, and he is mad at Shrek for polluting the city and he blackmails Shrek into helping Penguin so hard not

to make a joke, he's making Gotham his swamp. Yes, he really is. Yeah, Gotham is getting a bit swampy. Who's Shrek doesn't? Really? I think part of the I think his son's son is Donkey, is his Donkey. He is kind of his Donkey, which makes it even more amazing when Shrek is like, t Penguin, take me. Yeah, it lends new depths to the motion picture Shrek. Now, Shrek would totally do that for Donkey. Also, he has

I've seen it evidence. Okay. I have to say I love how talkatively is and he's such a cute voice. It's so sweet. He knows that Catwoman is about to appear on screen. Yeah, Flee loves to chat. He loves to he loves to weigh in, and he knows that this is a good time. Has he always been a very talkative count? Yeah, I've never I've only had like mostly coincidentally, I've I've had three black cats in my lifetime, and I've never had one that made any noise. And

Flee is so loud. He always has been. He's a he's a screamer. It's wonderful. Okay, So Penguin blackmails Shrek into helping him figure out his backstory. He wants to know where he came from, who his parents were, what his real name is, and he no longer wants to be seen as a monster. Meanwhile, Selena has to go back to the office where she discovers dirt on Shrek and all of his shady business stuff, and just then Shrek shows up and realizes Selena knows all of this

incriminating information about him. So do you think he wants her to get out of his swamp? There he kind of shows up and he's like, get out of swan exactly, Yeah, by Shrek at the beginning of Shrek one exactly, And he gets her out of his swamp by throwing her out of a window. That scene is awesome. So she falls to the ground. She is lying there, presumably dead, but then a bunch of street cats, and I like to think that they are you know, rum Tum Tugger,

busta for Jones, magical, Mr Mustaphele every bed. Wow, everyone showed up. I'm as a skimball shanks girly I but I maybe he comes later when there's a random circus train in the middle of Gotham. Because the railway cat he has a job is a union man. I love him. Okay, So these cats from the movie Cats seem to bring Selena back to life. She returns home. She's chugging milk, she's throwing away her stuffed anim she makes a new outfit because guess what, she's catwoman now. She ruins her

dollhouse question mark, Yes, she makes it goth. I was watching this and I was like, I do think, like every woman goes through this at some point in her life means like you either become goth or you become emo. It's like you become like adjacent to Then to that scene, every woman goes through this, every single woman. She turns her hello there sign into hell here. I cheered iconic, I cheered so good. There's so much fun like little plants and payoffs in this movie that you're just like,

who thought of that? It's the production I forget the production designers, like the Tim Burton guy bow something. I'll look it up. Okay, So she's becoming Catwoman. Meanwhile, Penguin stage as a situation where he saves a kidnapped baby at a public event so that he can save it and be seen as a hero by the people of Gotham, which works, and everyone loves Penguin now. And he goes to city hall or whatever, and he learns that his

real name is Oswald cobble Pot. He learns who his parents were, but he's like, I forgive them for what they did to me, and so people continue to sympathize with him. But Bruce Wayne slash Batman, who by the way, it were like thirty six ish minutes into the movie, and it's only at this point when he actually starts to become a character, because prior to that he's barely

in the movie. He's kind of like not in the movie very much, and it doesn't know that that was Yeah, I mean, I get why that was Like a criticism of the movie at the time, but in retrospect you're like he's sort of the most boring person. It works, and also like I don't know, that's the fun thing about his Michael Keaton is also a weird choice for Batman, but like one that I love in a back but

like he's like a little awkward. He doesn't have like the leading man features that I feel like everyone else they want Batman to have, even just like thinking about Batman the previous movie where like the Joker's goons or whatever come to his house and he's like, you want to get crazy, Let the Jokers Minions You're correct, yes,

the Minions Banana. They come to his house, and then he like has this moment where he's also being like very kind of aggressive towards them, which is not I think, like you never see Batman and other movies being like uncool, but he's so is as Michael Keaton, and like the whole first scene or the second scene where he meets Selena and he is just totally tripping over his words just because he's instantly like, oh, she's like she's hot.

I have to talk to her. It's so good. It's I I And again it's like it's like in a modern context like scans more with like how a weird guy with too much money would probably act like yeah, I love you alive girl. Yeah, yes, okay, so so Bruce slash Batman. He does not buy this whole like Penguin is a sympathetic character thing. He thinks Penguin is

up to no good. Meanwhile, Catwoman goes out on the streets and starts being a vigilante, not hero exactly, because Catwoman is famously sort of a good guy and sort of a bad guy. Maybe that's over oversimplifying. We will talk about her at length. But she blows up a store, but it's like empty, it's empty, and it's Shreks store, So we're like, yeah, you're like, oh, I guess that was evictiblest crime. It's fine. So Catwoman is on the

streets now. The next day she shows up to work as Selena, and Shrek is surprised to see her back in his swamp because he thought he killed her. Yeah, he thought he drowned her in the swamp. Well guess what. But also like shockingly unconcerned that a woman who has fallen a significant distance out of a window is just like back and not talking about that, and he says something like, well, if she tries to blackmail me, I'll push her out of a higher window. But until then

I have better fish to fry. Yeah, it's like the shreky and logic here is kind of all over the because he's like, okay, so he didn't check to make sure she had died, right, Like, if he looked out the window two minutes after that, he'd see her body being swarmed by cats, which is highly unusual. But you know,

he's a he's a careless guys. I was like, okay, whatever, but like there are things that happened throughout the movie that you just think is going to get a big reaction from him, and he just does not blink, such as when Penguin bites someone's nose off. He's like, comes over here, what sidebar? And I was like, oh my god, he just like does not Yeah. I mean I don't hate it, but I was like, yeah, sometimes his reactions to things. I was like, well, I thought that would

have mattered more to you. I think the nose meaning is especially funny because every one else freaks out and then only Christopher walk and he's like all right, whatever, he literally takes a society. He's like, I think we should run you for mayor. It's really funny. Oh that's

so good. Okay. So Selena is back at work and she meets Bruce Wayne, who is there for a meeting because Shrek wants Bruce to help fund his new power plant, which is actually not a power plant, is going to suck energy out of Gotham rather than generating energy anyway. He they meet and there seems to be a spark between Bruce and Selina. And then meanwhile Shrek is trying to have Oswald cobble Pot run for mayor because the current mayor of Gotham is trying to stop shreks bogus

power plant. I think. But they need a catalyst to drive out the current mayor some kind of like city crisis. So Penguin's minions unleash more chaos on the streets, which is basically just like assertain they just like militarized the clowns or the penguins anytime they need shipped to get stirred up there, like all right, all right, We're just going to give the penguins guns and people will not know what to do. And it's true they don't know what to do. It's true panic. Yeah, so the clown

gymnasts are flipping around and just causing chaos. Separately, Catwoman is wreaking her own havoc on the city. She This is when she blows up Shreks department store. Then Batman and Catwoman have like a face to face for the first time. They fight for a bit. They then Catwoman each I mean, well, she looks It's like a very sexually charged movie. Oh it is the horny ist movie

I've ever seen. There's like a scene where he says like I'm hard, like you're just there are a number of times where I'm pretty sure she puts her hand on his penis and he's just like all right. I wonder if that's a rating thing where it's like you can imply that her hand is there, but if he reacts to it, then you're getting hard are then? Yeah,

I'm not sure who knows. I didn't hate it, but again, very very horny movie, and for younger me definitely, I was like, oh wow, like what is going on here? So then Catwoman goes to Penguin to be like, hey, help me get rid of Batman and Penguin's like sounds great, he's horned up. Oh yeah, there's that scene that ends with like, I mean because it's like, as the movie goes on, Catwoman's horny nous just they just keep kind of cranking it up and up and up and up.

To be fair, they're also doing that for Penguin. Like everyone's getting hornier as it goes but like Catwoman's becoming a very you know, like specific kind of horny. But there's a scene that ends with her licking herself and Penguin just sitting on the bed going like, were just horny. He's been in the sewer for thirty three years, as we now know, Like we don't know how much action he's been getting, but I have to assume it's not

that much. And if you've been down there for thirty three years and this is all you're thinking about, I think he's justified. It really is Phantom of the Opera vibes in that regards as well. We're just like, I need a girlfriend. Finally he does. In a future scene he is kind of going like our slash in cell a little bit. Oh he's a complete full on predator. Yeah,

but we'll talk about that later. Um. Okay. So Catwoman wants to get rid of Batman, but she as Selena, goes on a date with Bruce, neither of them knowing about the others alter ego. They're chatting, they're talking about duality. They're like basically telling each other who they secretly are. Um.

Then Selena Lune is that Bruce to kiss him. They're making out, but then Bruce has to leave abruptly because Penguin is trying to frame Batman for kidnapping the Ice Princess during the New Christmas tree lighting ceremony since the other one got ruined by clowns by clown by clown gymnasts. But don't worry, the next one will also be ruined by by the same people. So Bruce puts on his

bat suit and heads down so hard. It's all a horrible place to live, and also like feels like it's perpetually a nighttime almost like I know logically that they're hard day time shots, but it's just it's always under the cover of darkness. I also appreciate that at one point the mayor is like, yeah, I know that you citizens of Gotham probably think that you know, these streets are really funked up and scary, but don't worry. You're

elected officials and law enforcement have everything under control. And it's like, no, you don't. You're attacked by clowns every other day. How well could these public services be doing there? The way that Gotham looks, I think of like all the Batman franchises I've seen, I think, I mean, I've seen like one from every whatever. But this is my favorite Gotham visually because I love the Nolan movies, but

it does kind of just look like Chicago. I like them for that reason, though, Like I do think this is still my favorite Gotham. But I'm very sentimental watching the Nolan Gotham because I grew up a lot in Illinois, and I'm like, that's the best nice. I was like, maybe if Gotham looked a little more like Boston, I wouldn't be so critical. Every movie has to be made for me specifically. I mean, I do feel like you would feel very differently about it if Gotham looked like Boston.

I would actually be so thrilled. Have either of you seen the menu? Not not yet, but I do want to spoiler alert there's a character from my home town. Yeah, although I couldn't really suspend my disbelief to believe that Anya Taylor I could be from my hometown. There's I was like, I don't think that there's beautiful people like that in Brockton. But she came from Brockton. Jamie, you're beautiful. I'm not. I'm not. I'm a tailor. Joyce swan Neck

defeating Ralph finds at a restaurant. Beautiful. But you know who is? Who is? But her? It's true. She is like an alien. She she is a gorgeous alien. I really love her. Yeah, she came from a different like the sailor moon planet or something. It's I do appreciate her even being fictionally connected to Brockton. It's an honor.

There wasn't. There was a show a while ago that was specifically set in the town in Illinois that I mostly grew up in, but they didn't shoot any of it there and didn't really make an attempt to make it look like it. Not that there's that much going for my hometown in Illinois, but every I remember, everyone that I like went to high school with, we were like watching the trailer. We were like, what the hell is this? Like this is not at all, This doesn't

look like a done at all. Rude. Brockton gets constantly disrespected because of like there have been like some movies shot sequences there, but it's only like, oh, we need somewhere that looks like it sucks and it's not safe. So there were like a lot of key scenes from Katherine Bigelow's Dumpster Fire of a movie Detroit was shot at the streets of Brockton because they're like, we just need a place that looks like it just blew up,

and so then they shot it in Brockton. Rude. Adam McKay shot some of the scenes where like Timothy shallowm is hanging out with his dumpster friends and don't look up in Brockton. I'm just like, no fucking respect. Unbelievable. They're like, okay, dumpster sequence, where can we go? Like what the fuck? Okay? So the second tree lighting ceremony is being interrupted by clowns, so Bruce puts on his

batsuit and heads downtown to save the day. But Catwoman shows up and she and Penguin successfully frame Batman for murdering the ice princess. So now everyone hates Batman, which is a pity because she seems nice. She seems very nice. Yeah. Also there's a sequence where Penguin hijacks the batmobile and he's like crashing it into things, but then Batman regains control of his vehicle. He's like doing it from like an arcade. It's really fun, it's really really cute. It's awesome.

Then Penguin is able to gain more power and popularity with his mayoral campaign. But while he's giving a speech, Bruce Wayne Slash Batman leaks some audio where Penguin is talking about how he's playing this stinking city like a harp from hell, and so everyone turns on Penguin and hates him now. So he returns to the Sewer to plot his revenge. This is where he goes from semi successful mayoral run too, I'm going to kill everyone's firstborn son in about two minutes. I think he could have

recovered the campaign, could have recovered. I mean it reminded me of, like, honestly, some key moments in the Trump campaign. Seriously, I was saying the exact same thing. It reminds me I was like that, Well, there is his Billy Bush tape basically and against all odds, he was famously the president. We don't need to talk about. So Penguin's campaign tanked, but Trump's won't. What's going on makes you think? Okay,

so about Penguin, writes in this chat. So while Penguin is plotting his plan to kill a bunch of babies, very plagues of Egypt. Yeah, while that's happening, Bruce and Selena go to this masquerade party, although it's called a Max Scarade party because it's Max Shrek's party. Um, get it, get it. It's a real stretch, it's hard, it's a mouthful. When he walks in there playing an instrumental of super super Freak, implication that super freak like exists in this universe,

which I'm glad to know that it does. Yeah, I wonder if it only existed as an instrumental. Oh, interesting could be Um okay. So they're dancing and Selena is telling Bruce about how she's there to kill Shrek. She said, no more swamp. No, I'm going to drain this swamp, she says, And then they both say something that makes Selena realize that Bruce's Batman, and he realizes that she is catwoman. Um so they're like, oh my god, what do we do now? But just then Penguin launches his attack.

He shows up. He kidnaps Max Shrek again as a second choice he loves. She tries to kidnap Chip, but then Shrek is like, no, don't hurt my donkey. Take me instead. That's my donkey. I wish the Chip had gotten to talk. There could be dead. Let him take me I can. But honestly, like his christ ever walk in the Freshman is shockingly good. Like it's just subtle enough. Yeah, who was that guy? He killed it? I don't know, feel like used to be in m M A or

something was my impression. Andrew brand Narski. He is an American actor and former bodybuilder, best known for portraying leather Face in the remake of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Saying in Street Fighter, and Steve Latimer in the Program, and obviously Chip in Batman returns his most iconic role. Okay, so while that's happening, Penguin's minions are stealing babies all over Gotham. But Batman stops this somehow. I didn't even catch how he's able to stop that, but that he

puts an end to it. So Penguin sends out all of his little penguins, like literal penguin birds with rockets strapped to them to blow up Gotham. And I would classify this scene as a bit of a march of the penguins. Oh yeah, yeah, bit of happy feet marching out onto the streets. Yeah, and I think that's all the penguin movies. Well, there's also surf Surf's up. Is that what it's called? Surfing penguins? I forgot about that. Madagascar has penguins in it. They are not the prominently

it's true, really famous penguins. Yeah, they got their own spin off, right, I thought so. My little cousin loved the Madagascar movies. Okay, I haven't revisited it a while, but I loved it when I was a kid. The second one does a polka cover of New York, New York, which is one of my favorite versions of it. Like not ironically, it's very and that's going to show up on your Spotify end of year to this year, it

probably has already. Um. Okay, so there's a march of the penguins, but Batman shows up he jams their signal and reroutes their gps IS to send them back to Penguin's sewer layer. Penguin escapes, Batman catches up with him, they fight, Rockets start going off. Meanwhile, Catwoman fights with Shrek in the Penguin Layer. She's trying to kill him, but Batman shows up and he's like, no, let's put him in jail, and he's trying to appeal to her humanity.

He's like, we could be together. Batman was pissing me off in that scene. I was like, leave her alone, let her finish him. Seriously, totally agree, and also like takes the very ill advised tack of saying her real name and then taking off his mask in front of Max StrEG in order to try to convince her. And I'm like, if anything, that makes the case for killing him even stronger, Like he can't be out there. No. It is really funny though, When Shrek is like, why

is Bruce Wayne dressed up as Batman? Catwoman's like, because he is, you, moron. It's good anyway. So Catwoman kills Shrek via electrocution and then presumably scurries off with one life left of her nine lives. Penguin shows up, he's dying. He dies so that his little penguins drag him into the water and Karen's crying. I I do cry every time he dies in this movie, Like this is not a joke, Like I cried and death scene every time it is sad. They give him like a real proper

tragic hero or not tragic villain and send off. When he pulls the umbrella out and it's and he's like, pict a cute one again and then just falls her. I was like, oh, he's an eight. He got he should they should just give him. He's such a good actor. And I feel like we all forget that because he's so good at being like funny and weird and like it's always sunny and stuff and posting his feet to Twitter. But he's such a good actors. His performance is incredible.

He's amazing. Yeah, um okay. So then the movie ends with Bruce. He's driving around with Alfred. He thinks he sees catwoman in an alley. He gets out, he finds her cat, which looks exactly like Fleet by the way. He takes it home so that, like we said, Alfred can take care of it and then Bruce Wayne says Merry Christmas, Alfred goodwill toward men and women, and then they go, oh like feminist icon. He nibbles a little bit there. Wow, it is a really funny final line.

It's you see Catwoman and then you know, like, because we live in the future, that she never comes back, and it's sending you up for a movie that never happens. Okay, let's take another quick break and we will come back to discuss, and we're back. Karen, Where would you like to begin? Uh, that's such a good question. There's so much to talk about. I mean, I guess we'll start with the penguin because he's fresh on my mind, where I just love him so much, I would I would

give a little kiss. I don't mind that he's perfect. The main conversation to be had about him as it pertains to our show and the analysis we do here is um the physical mothering and able ism that is present in his character, even though no specific disability is referenced when it comes to his character. And I'm pretty sure that having penguin like features, to my knowledge, is not a real thing, right. But the syndactyl ly or what is it with his hands, I think is the

real thing. But obviously, again they don't put like a name to any of what's going on, right right, Even so, a villain in a movie having a typical physical features and looking different from everybody else is just inherently ablest. And in this case, I would say also fat phobic, because Danny de Vito is wearing a fat suit as the Penguin character. So there's just all of this again

physical mothering of his character. But this movie does something interesting that I feel like a lot of movies don't do when it comes to physically other movie villains, where the movie will other the villain in some way, usually with like very ablest under an overtones, but it's usually not something that impacts this story or the character. It's just like a trait that exists in a void for

that character. But Penguin's whole thing is that he was discarded by his parents because he was physically different, which led to a lifetime of isolation and resentment and longing, which turned him into the villain that he is. So you have this character who's like affected by everyone in the community being ablest towards him, and yes, it does

turn him into a villain. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it exactly, but it's it's tough, I think, like, especially for the time period, Like it feels pretty forward in that respect, where again, like the fact that he looks the way he does is not supposed to indicate that he's a villain, like I think, especially because of the way that Tim Burton uses iconography, like everyone looks a little bit weird it and especially as you were sort of saying in the penguin's case,

like he is like this specifically because everyone else discriminates against him because of the way he looks. So it's not there as a storytelling shortcut or anything like that. It's not there in the sense of, like I think it's discussed the most with like Bond villains, where there's always some kind of physical deformity that has no bearing on their personality but just means look at them, they're evil,

which is not the case here. And I also feel like the depths again, the fact that data Vito is such a good and empathetic actor like goes a really long way towards selling that point, because like then they have the direct like rips from the elephant man, where at first, like when he's being reintegrated into society, he's like, I'm not a penguin, like I'm a man, I have a name, And then when they reject him because of the tape, and also I think because of inherent bias,

he's like, I am not a man, I'm a monster. And it's like, again, it's because of the outside influences that he is doing these bad things more so than

that being like an inherent part of his personality. Right, I yeah, I like was it is like a tricky I mean, it's like a tricky topic to take on in any regard, and it's like so present in comic books in general that I appreciate it, like even though it's like certainly not like a perfect attempt to address it, but like I thought it was like like you're saying, Caitlin, and like it was trying to give context to like he is not a villain because of how he looks.

He is a villain because of how society treats him because of how it looks. And you know, it was interesting and I don't know what actually we'll come back to it. I lost it. Um Oh. I also I saw some reads. It's tricky because it's like I certainly see and like can acknowledge a lot of the able is m that's built into the character. And then there's also moments where it's like they're just trying to make him look more like a penguin, and so it's like

two things kind of are happening at once. I saw that at the time of this movie's release, and rightfully so. I mean, and we've talked about anti Semitic tropes and villains a number of times, and I think that, um, some of those are certainly present in The Penguin as well. The point that didn't register with me was like, here is a villain who's being given anti Semitic styling, who is determined to steal babies around Christmas, and you're like,

oh uh, yep, that is certainly what's happening. Um, so yeah, I think that It's like I totally agree with Karen. I think like Danny Devitto's performance is like so much of like what humanizes this character. I like that he gets so much context into why he is the way

he is. Danny DeVito is so perfect it's hard. He's perfect, and Danny DeVito I think again, not to keep just talking about his performance, but the fact that he never plays also like a joke goes a long, long, long, long long way towards this kind of coming off better, I guess, because I think you could very easily play it as like, Oh, he's so funny and weird look at him, But I don't think he ever plays it

that way in the movie. Yeah, yeah, for sure. The thing that puts me off about him the most as far as his like villainous qualities, is his like predatory, like sexual predatory behavior, where like he says stuff like, oh, I'd like to fill her void, and he just like is actively groping people and sexually harassing them. I viewed that, though I didn't view that as like tying into anything

that had to do with his physical appearance. I viewed that as like him getting corrupted by power the second he gets a little bit of power, because that's like, because like the coolest part about his character is like he at the beginning, it's like you can totally see like he wants to funk over Gotham because he's been so thoroughly rejected and isolated from the society he should have been growing up in but then the second he gets a little taste of power, he immediately is like

horrible to everybody in all the expected ways, which I think is like an awesome whatever. It's a it's a it's a it's a good arc we know, we know this arc um. Oh, that was what I was thinking. It was earlier, was I feel like I mean, And there's plenty of criticisms of Tim Burton. I wasn't even going to get into them today really because we've talked

about them in previous episodes. But I do think that like something that he dealt with well in a lot of examples, especially in this era of his is like taking another character and building them out to be someone that you can empathize with, even if ultimately they're like doing the wrong thing. And so for like it's like, yeah, I guess like the penguin in Tim Burton and Mark Water's hand because this was written by the guy who wrote Heathers um like You've got two That is Daniel Waters.

Oh sorry, Daniel Waters. Mark Waters is his brother who directed Mean Girls. Yeah, the whole Waters dynasty situation apparently, but yeah, Daniel Waters wrote Heather's Tim Burton liked Heathers, and he liked that Daniel Waters had no knowledge about Batman Um and didn't care about Batman Cannon and like it just like we're two people who were known for dealing with humanizing misfits well and so for I think

that they did a pretty good job. But I also, you know, totally understand all of the criticisms around the

penguin as well. Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't know, it is very of its time in a way, like even thinking about the uh, like phone sales calls that Selena Gas where they're like, oh, if you wear this at the office, your boss is going to invite you to day late, like it's so gross, and Max's houltree ement of her, and then even to an extent like Bruce where he's just like he sees her and he's like, Oh,

that woman's hot. I want to talk to her more, right, I think it's rare and maybe it doesn't even happen for a man to come into contact with Selena and not immediately say something, even though like I think the most egregious thing is like the two security guards are like, yeah, I don't know if I should arrest her or as with her right, and you're just like, oh my god, like okay, you can blow up those guys. And then she's like, you're paid too much. Also watching her is

very cathartic. Oh yeah, absolutely. Also, Penguin turns on Catwoman the second she's like, yeah, I don't want to have sex with you or marry you, and he says, and I quote you, lousy minx. I ought to have you spade. You sent out all the signals, and I don't think I like you anymore, and then he tries to kill her, has her air lifted out of the scene. I mean, it's an incredible, incredible way to get someone out of your life. But also like he has no little to

no social interaction with people. Don't know, I'm not trying to write off the behavior like you should not behave that way towards anybody, but anyway, but that no, I think that that's like part of why this character is like kind of endured in spite of like all this stuff is like I don't know, I feel like I complain about modern movie villains a lot, and like the movie doesn't go out of its way to like redeem the Penguin, like he's still a villain, but you also

know enough about him that you do feel a little bit bad or or in Karen's case, are full and creeping um when he does die, because it's like, well, no, like he you know, grew up extremely disadvantaged. He was raised by penguins. He's not interacted with people. Um, you know, he's dying a very horny virgin. Like there's a lot of things that he lost the mayor mayoral campaign. His dad was pee wee herman. He has a lot of baggage. Wait, his dad is played by Paul Rubens. Yeah, I didn't know,

and Karen wasn't lying. Doug Jones is in this movie. He plays a clown. Oh my gosh, he's the he's the quote unquote thin clown. Oh why I mean described Doug Jones in a better way. It's true, Like it's right there, Oh my goodness. But like but but but by the time Penguin dies, I just like I feel like it's kind of a weird lost art in big

movies to have uh, you know, poetic villain that. Yeah, it's like they're they're so clearly a path you can see where he his life would have been fine or like he would have been redeemed him some way, and that's what makes that storyline powerful, that he is not on it or did not manage to get on it right and then like the first person to like accept him into society. It happened to be like kind of the most evil guy um where like nobody around him has his best interests at his heart. Yeah, he was

only doing it because he was being blackmailed. And he also was like, oh, I can use him as a political pond so I can build my power plant, right like if if I don't know, I mean it's like Penguin. By the end, you're like, yeah, he's the villain. You know, he's not going to make it out of the movie. But but also we're frowning and it's sad, and he's

supposed to be thirty three years old. Yes, the last thing I want to say about I feel like I love I think almost across the board really like the like political like corrupt politics commentary in this movie and

like those areas of the Penguin. I kind of am like kind of above criticism for me, where it's like commenting on how like people are so influenced by media narratives that make them feel like good people, where it's like these are the same people that have rejected and been afraid of Penguin his whole life, but then there's this false media narrative constructed by the penguin to be like I'm good now you should feel so bad to

have been so horrible to me in the past. And they're like, yeah, we love the penguin, now we're going to vote for him. And then like he's like, oh, whatever, fuck you. Um, that's absolutely true. Yeah, I was not.

I keep interrupting you, but I was thinking about that too, Like in the scene where he goes to his parents grave site and it's like a whole like media circus out there, Like there are a lot of journalists, there's a huge crowd that all are just wanting to gawk at this yeah, and it's like he's, uh, so there's so much about this movie that you're like, oh, it's like rejecting all these things where it's like he's crafting his own redemption arc while being completely unchanged, and like

people buy it because and people always buy ship like that. They want to Yeah, are we to understand that Penguin killed his own parents, like he knew who they were and at some point went and killed them and that's why they're dead or did I just kind of fill in some blanks. I think they just died. Yeah, I didn't think that he had he had killed them, Okay, but well that's my headcanon that he did already know who they were and he went and killed them, killed

Pee Wee. I mean that's going to dock him a few points in my book. You really can't be killing pee Wee Herman. But also like the fact that they brought Pee Wee Herman back for the Gotham TV show specifically because they're like, we gotta get him in. It's a great cameo. Anyway, He's Cannon, he is, He's that Makann and know he is. It makes me Also Jan Hooks is in this movie. I love Jan Hooks Okay,

so oh yeah. But then and then like just like that, they're like running him on this like law and order campaign, like just all this stuff where it's like, yeah, I love that. The people of Gotham are also always kind of like not like complicit in the downfall of their city, but like they kind of fall for everything, and you're like well, guys, I mean you really should have been reading between the lines on that whole Penguin redemption narrative.

But you know, I guess you're gonna get attacked by a clown again just desserts, but like the like, oh or city is so full of crime narrative also like something that we see a lot in our contemporary society and it's not always true. But yeah, can we talk about before we get to because Catwoman, I know it's like going to consume so much of the discussion and

rightfully so. But uh, I was reading about like the creative production of this movie and a lot of the back and forth that happened between Tim Burton and Daniel Waters, and something that I liked because because Max Shrek. I wouldn't have known this because I don't know about comic books, but is an original character added to this movie was not part of Batman. Cannon added him in specifically named after the actor Max Shrek, who played I liked that.

You know, they wanted to have like you're kind of like political villain to to counter to the Penguin, which is like more kind of a classic comic book e villain um. And they said that they wanted to do that specifically so that they like decate there, like, oh, the greatest evil is often just like an elected public official or like a business person, and it's true, and it's true. I just like it ages very well in

that regard. I really, I really liked it. And I mean I don't like the character of Max Shrek is so despicable, but like it just like it fits in Gotham. I would prefer that to like another cartoony kind of villain. And Christopher Walkin plays the hell out of him. Oh yeah, Oh he looks so goofy. He looks great. Yeah, like it's amazing. He's hot. He's oh my god, Christopher Walkin is hot. And then every time everyone in this movie is hot, and then we're always like, what happens on

the boat and Christopher walking what happened? Yeah, I cannot forget that that he probably does know how Natalie would died. I can never forget that. TikTok, you know, you gotta let us know you're getting up there. And he hasn't dropped that on the Dune to press tour. He's like he's getting to There's been too many true crime podcasts about Natalie would. I just want to say this now, this is the best Christopher Rock and I can do. And there I was. I love it. It's perfect, It's perfect.

All right. Shall we talk about Catwoman? Okay? That costume, Oh my god, it's hot. Jeem So my note, my notes are all over the place with her. But I guess just like, okay, generally speaking, or to kick us off, first of all, well, I love Catwoman. Incredible character, amazing. Michelle Peiffer as Catwoman is iconic, just like she's the

best one, so good. What I like about the Selena Slashcatwoman character is I mean, she's contextualized much like Penguin is where you get the sense that Selena is constantly being undermined by men in her life and her mom um. She's constantly being disappointed by men in her life. She is inundated with pressure to please men and kind of adhere to rigid gender roles, you know, all of this ship that she's dealing with. That like she's literally like

putting a pink collar job. The whole thing where she keeps saying like I'm an assistant, it's like a secretary, Like that whole distinction is so good and every yeah, everyone keeps calling her secretary right, And then like at work, when she tries to offer some input in a meeting, she's shot down. Shrek doesn't want to hear what she

has to say. He says something like, you know, we haven't properly how to feel that way about Fiona too, and she I mean, exactly, okay, sorry, I thought love was only true in fairy tales, but tributity lies within. So everything about the point is Shrek undermines Selena. And then she goes home. You see a bit of her

interior life. She has all of these messages on her answering machine from people again either like disappointing her, undermining her, like laying on this pressure was kind of like societal patriarchal pressure. And then when she goes back to the office and is murdered by her boss, that's obviously like the catalyst that turns her into catwoman. You know, Skimble Shanks is like Miamio and she's like a catwoman, and he's like back from work, back from the clown train,

I work on um. And then she criticizes skimble Shanks for not paying rent, which if true, is wild because he we are to understand that he has a job. That's right. He's one of the few cats that makes money, so he should be paying rent. He's rich. Um, he works on a train. What is it going to use all that cat money for? He's a cat and he takes it so seriously. That's the whole song is about how seriously he takes his job and exactly how he does it. He's like, I'm on time every day and

the train just kind of can't run without me. I saw it at the Pantages a couple of weeks ago, and he didn't tap in the stage adaptation. Heck, I know Mr must Files tapped, and well Mr m is a classic tapper, but he's like not a tapper in the movie, but he is a tamper on stage. I knew that, but I didn't know that there was no Skimble Shanks tapping. I mean, it was a lovely dance, but I did walk away disappointed. It's a lot more of like this. It's yes now is Skimble Shanks taking

up space? Of course, during the number he's taking up He's taking up space the way that Sebastian Maniscalco does during his specials. He's back and forth back and forth, like but but it just wasn't quite the tap number I was expecting. Yeah, I'm sorry, Catwoman. Yes, okay, another little context defect. And again I don't want to get in the habit of hand to get to dim Burton

too hard. He has a lot of baggage. But I guess when they were developing the scriptum According to scholarly journal Wikipedia, Burton's only instruction to Daniel Watters writing the script was that Catwoman had to be more than a sexy vixen and like so he it was a definite point of like we need to understand how she gets from zero to Catwoman. It's not just sexy lady and suit do crime and be a girlfriend. Which is why I think she really works in this movie, like she

has more to do. Like I think that's kind of the fatal flaw of like the other like film Catwoman that we've seen where they don't have as much to do or there's kind of too much assumed that we would know about her already, that she falls kind of flat. That this line is like she rules, I understand her, talked about him like she's great and she has like

a real struggle like I'm trying to I I are. Honestly, most of the Robert Pattins in Batman movie, I know, I liked it, but most of it's already left my brain. But Colin Farrell a little the strongest impression in that movie. Yeah, I liked him, and I love Zoe Kravitz, but it's like her Catwoman was so cool that it wasn't like, oh, I wonder if she's going to get out of this. It's like, well, she's so cool, she's probably gonna get out of it. Michelle Peiffer's Catwoman. I genuinely was like,

I don't know what's going to happen now. She's very chaotic. Yeah, the stakes are so high for her, and you know that right away, and you also like, I guess I'm curious what you both thought about this, because I I, you know, I think that we're to believe that like Selena is like unraveling as the story goes on, She's like losing her you know, grip on reality. But I thought that for the most part, that was like well

contextualized enough that it didn't super bother me. Like when she goes nuclear on her house, I was like, yeah, totally. There comes a day you just died and came back like of course, yeah, I'm not going to call that overly emotional behavior. I think it makes sense, right, because she's reacting to all of this stuff that she had been dealing with prior to that, the most drastic being

that she was murdered by her boss. But like she to me, I see her transformation as like an extremely liberating and empowering moment for her because she comes in, she destroys all of the pink stuff, the her dollhouse, her stuffed animals, She's spray painting things black to make like her house goth. She pulls out like the one black leather coat she has and she's like, this is my outfit now. So she's like rejecting femininity, like traditional

femininity in this way. But I don't think the movie is saying like feminine things bad, Like yeah, I don't think so either. It's more just like she's I think, fed up with the expectation to adhere to very rigid, hyper feminine gender roles and she's like, funck this, Like I'm going to break out of this prison basically of

gender role constraints and unleash havoc on the world. What I don't quite get about her character is while I think she has a really cool internal conflict like you mentioned Jamie, as far as like she's struggling with this dual identity, she doesn't really know who she has become. This transformation is like really messing with her mentally and emotionally. Her external conflict doesn't really make any sense to me.

She wants to take down Batman for why. I assume she wanted to take down Max s Trek and knew that and felt that Batman would be an obstacle for that because like obviously what she was trying to do is assassinate of his This man basically is not going to allow that to happen on his watch no matter what.

That makes more sense, That's how because I was like a little unclear in that at first, but then I was like, oh, Selena is one thing I actually really like about her is she goes full girl boss babe, but she like she is like very strategic in the way she does stuff where it's like if she has to manipulate, like emotionally manipulate Batman in one scene to like neutralize him temporarily and then go over to the penguin, you know, like get what she needs from him, and

it's like all very strategic and like Batman is such a like I was gonna say loser. He's not a loser, but like he's so like lawful good that you know, and his whole thing is he doesn't kill people and she straight up does some I know, which I think Batman heads don't Like, I don't care it works in the movie. I'm not that mad about it. I like that Daniel Waters, like he has so many quotes about being like saying like, I don't care about pleasing fans.

Comic book fans mean nothing to me, Like they shouldn't let me kill Selena. But it makes more sense if Batman kills people, and you're just like, man damn Daniel to borrow a phrase, Um, he just he just doesn't give a rat's ass when it comes to great which I do. I think that mores honestly more uh screenwriters for like big franchises, they should hire more people who don't give a ship because that's the only way you get new stuff. Tony Gilroy, this is why Andor is

good because he hates Star Wars. Really, I hate Star Wars. Yeah, and is so good. It's like I'm talking, I'm gonna watch it still. There's an entire arc about the prison complex. Like it's wild interesting, it's really really good. Yeah, maybe less fans should be hired. And this is how I'm going to get to write a big franchise movie. I'm like,

I don't know, you should hire me. I don't know anything. Um, but like Batman is so like there you know, all the obvious observations about Batman been made also on this show, uh where it's like he's a billionaire and her, but like, but I think for this that doesn't even really come into it that much. Those are the kind of obvious criticisms of him. But like that scene at the end where they're like he's coming in lawful good and he's like we just need to like bring him to the

police and it'll be fine. And Selena is like, what the funk are you talking about? Like this guy lives above the law and so do we, and he's like, no,

cops are amazing. I love God and p D and like, Commissioner, my only friend, my only friend is a cops are I was like, God, so pathetic, But like whatever, But I just I just loved how like I don't know, like in a way that totally fits like cartoonishly explicit that conversation is and that he doesn't win her over like that was I was sort of like nervous that whole scene of like, oh God, is he going to

win her over? Is she gonna be like you're right, let's just bring him downtown and like get him locked up or another fear. This was like a Spider Man two based fear, whereas like is Batman going to get the killing blow on Max Shrek or something? Because I always forget Batman's not supposed to kill people, So I was like, oh, is he going to get to do it? That would suck because it's so clearly Selena's kids to

do it. But none of that happens. Batman is literally like knocked out for for Selena to get her killing blow in. Honestly, his part in the final scenes is so funny because he gets knocked out and then you see him sort of like in the distance sort of standing up and like here around and see what's going on as these six penguins, uh score the body of the penguin into the water, like, can you imagine being Bruce Wayne in that moment, being like, huh, like what's

going on? Oh, the penguins are like having a funeral service, and then Batmans goes like, oh, I gotta go. And then Batman goes over to like the rubble and like clear some of it away, and he's ease Max Shrek just as like a yeah, like a burnt to a crisp dead dude. Catwoman's nowhere. It's really good. It's awesome.

But I liked I totally agree with what you guys are saying about Catwoman and her I guess spectrum of femininity, because I think that's one of the fun things about this movie, and I think something that will be relatable to anyone who has ever sort of questioned how to present gender in any way. Where the scene where she saves that woman from being raped on the street, she's like, oh, you make it so easy, always waiting for someone to

come save you. I think that's like a sort of thing that we all wrestle with, where it's like, even if you want to present in a very traditionally feminine matter, or that's what you like more and what you want to do, Like the stereotypes that have been laiden onto. These particular aesthetics are so loaded and what people tell you about like when, for instance, like someone is sexually assaulted, like so much of the language is about like, oh, well,

what were you doing in that situation? So yeah, where I don't know, it's it's interesting to watch her struggle

with that. Like they obviously don't go all the way into like just talking about gender politics in this movie, but it's a very interesting thing to touch on in general, because like the iconography of Catwoman in this movie, where she turns into this like all leather like girls dominatrix style, like has such an impact on how we now perceive like quote unquote strong female characters because they're like, oh, like they have to be sexy but also shoot a gun.

And it's like, no, like that's not what constitutes like strength for any character, or like you don't have to present in one way or anything or the other to be considered strong. But anyway, right, because her sexualization is something I was grappling with because she when she transforms into Catwoman, she becomes like I would say, one of the hottest movie characters of all times, absolutely a sexual awakening for were I think most people who feel sexual feelings.

One of the IMDb trivia things for this is that people kept stealing like the one sheet of her like because and like to the point that they had to like start putting like cops out to watch like busses and like signage post and ship to make sure they would stop stealing them our tax dollars at work, people guarding sexual images of Michelle Peifer like. A friend of the show, Sammy Junio had this to say, Michelle Peifer as Catwoman is a gay awakening for a lot of

queer folks. And gay awakening is also what I announced into my empty apartment when I get out of bed for the day. So Sammy making a Google but I did, I mean my my feeling on it was like I understand why, Like it almost feels like the sort of thing where for me it really works in the context of this movie, and I understand how like people could take the most base interpretation of it and lift it for other movies in a way that is like net negative.

But I don't think that that's Michelle Feiffer Catwoman's fault. I feel like, no, no, it's a very like Mr Hollywood takeaway to be like, Okay, so you know she people really liked this character and it's probably because she was wearing a skin tight suit and had a gun and it's like, well, that was a part of it, but also I like, but also the other stuff. It's not nothing. It was definitely a good chunk. But also

it's like the character was well written. She was really strongly motivated and like, yeah, I sort of viewed like her being sexualized. I don't think it's ever like endorsed by the movie explicitly, like especially when it's um Shrek or the Penguin and and I don't know, I felt like her sexualization at least with like the outfit and her behavior was more like she's like all of a sudden confident, like sexual confident and like into herself in a more about her Yeah, And I liked that, like

the visual representation of that. And obviously it's a very like you know, Western beauty standards visual interpretation of that, but I thought it worked that it's like, oh, this is like a woman who has felt so pushed down by all these different forces and now she's finally like, oh I'm fucking hot and cool. And I can like do whatever I want and that's cool, that's fun is and that's like, that's what I was grappling with. Where Like, on one hand, you could easily argue that her sexualization

is very much on her own terms. This is how she chooses to present this is a manifestation of her newfound confidence. But on the other hand, you could argue that it was the male screenwriters and directors who chose to present a female character in this way. But but because like her being sexualized in this story isn't predatory in terms of like the way the camera views her.

It's not like male gazzy linger e cinematography. It's more just like and this is how the character is now presenting it pretty objectively in my opinion, So yeah, I was like pretty fine with it. Yeah, I totally agree with that as also objectively into it because it's like Michelle Phiffer and also her performance there is a really good It was from like I think five or so years ago for the anniversary of this movie. It was a really nice piece by uh right. We've cited many

times on this show. Angelica, Jade Bastian and Vulture wrote this nice ode to Michelle Pheiffer as Catwoman, and just like how her like will link it in the description of this episode, she she directs you to several ways that Michelle Peiffer was talked about in the press where I think that also, and this gets me into like Lolita podcast brain kind of like how I think a lot of like the takeaway of how Catwoman was presented was shaped by how the media talked about it versus

what actually happens in the movie, because all, yeah, right, where you know, in context, she's taking control of her own sexuality and presenting the way she wants to present. But the way that, like she was profiled at the time, the way she was talked about in the media, was very it like had nothing to do with Michelle Pfeifer's performance,

which I think is like really awesome. Her performance is great, Yeah, And I mean that's just very indicative of the way women tend to be perceived, because people tend to value women for very specific things like their physical appearance and not their skills or artistic talents or brains. Yeah, what do we think about the bat cat relation? I love it, I don't hate it. Um it feels a little like

half baked kind of. But it seemed to me that Bruce likes Selena after like he meets her in Tricks because I think he thinks she's fierce and powerful and cool and that's what he's drawn to her confidence. Yeah. Yeah, he literally wants her to like step on him, like it does kind of like that's the kind of he's like this like shy weirdo. That's like he came to this super freak party hoping you'd be here. Like she wants him to step on him, and she would, but

she's busy. Yeah, she's booked it busy. She's busy killing Max Strick. She's literally like, there's a bedroom in the other room if you want to like get this done. Yeah. I love how horny she is. And he's like, whoa, whoa, what we had superhero movies could be He was so horny. It's so they're so like so funny. The scene where they like first fight and she's like, you can't hit me, I'm a woman. He's like, okay, so you're right. I'm so sorry, and then she kicks him in the faces.

I wrote all of this down because I love this good. It's great. That's the first fight between them. They're fighting, she's holding her own but he knocks her down and then she says, how could you I'm a woman, and then he's like, oh, I'm sorry, and then he like goes to help her up, but it was a trick. She kicks him. She gets the upper hand and knocks him over a ledge, so he's like dangling there, holding

on by her whip. And then she was like, as I was saying, I'm a woman and can't be taken for granted, and that's when she says, life's a bit now, so am I, And we're like, She's got a lot of great lines. It's really really fun. I really do like how like cartoony the script is even at the beginning where it's all of her like single lady lines are so weird but funny, where she's like it just it's literally sounds like a comic strip where you walk in you're like, honey, I'm home. Oh wait, I don't

have a husband. I'm like, that's a cavy strap, and then like the single cam like laugh track. Yeah, it's it's so especially because they like go so hard against it and that in the rest of the movie that it like totally works. I loved that she uses the clown taser at the end. She kept the clowns taser um planning payoff baby um the only thing that kind

of like pinged for me. And we just talked about something similar on the Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead episode where a female character's wait gets just kind of mentioned.

There's a moment where Selena is like, she and Bruce are talking and they're kind of commenting on the news coverage, like the media coverage of Batman and Catwoman, and Selena says something like, oh, you know, there's like this rumor going around that Catwoman is thought to weigh a hundred and forty pounds, as if she thinks that's too much and she doesn't weigh that much, and she resents that people think she's she weighs more than she actually is.

Really jumped out in that moment because you're I honestly was like confused by that line at first, because I was like, what is even being said, because that's just

like it's whatever I mean that I do. We've talked about that before too, was like that that's like the kind of ship that gives young people eating disorders, as someone who famously had my my e D cranked up to an eleven by an offhand line in a Family Guy episode, Uh, you really can't be it's like the numbers specifically that really bugs me where it's like, yeah, I don't know, Yeah, that that was like a very

bizarre one. It's just a lazy choice to make like the one female character in the movie mention her weight or be concerned about her weight. And as these movies always do act in such a way that women being concerned about their image and their weight just happens in a void has nothing to do with the societal pressure we place on women for how they look. So yeah,

that line, that line bumped me out. There's a really funny um I stand it to you, Caitlin, there's a really Dani Schwartz like three years ago, Live tweeted this entire movie and also called out that line of like

what are they saying here? Like truly was oh no, And then if you think about it for a second, you're like, oh, I guess brain where it was like that messaging was kind of like approaching and all time high because we're in like the what is that Kate moss quote whatever that era food doesn't taste as good as skinny field or whatever. The fuck? Yeah? Remember we were ever you know the words that shaped and haunted us? Um? Yeah, so yeah, I I also clocked that. Unfortunately it's one

line and doesn't really come up again. Yeah. The last I think one of the last things I have is um the scene where she goes on the date with Bruce. She makes the first move and it's intense. Okay, it is possibly a surprise kiss because she lunges at him. She does lunge at him. However, he has just said that he wants to kill, wants to kiss. So I felt like, maybe I'm giving Catwoman a pass on that one. She came in hot. Yeah, but I'm gonna give her. She came in hot. She was like, I cannot wait

to kiss you. Will you let me? And she's like I see that, and I raise you. I'm going to kiss you by pouncing on you like a cat. She's like, I might actually eat you. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I think that like their relationship, Like it doesn't. I just it's like so nice to see horny super horny woman visibility. I love it incredibly horny. It's good. Yeah, I do like because we talked about the trope of a woman using a frying pan as a weapon. She uses a frying pan, but it's to smash up her

own apartment. I liked it, followed by the line where she says, I don't know about you, miss Kitty, but I feel so much yummier, iconic, iconic, so good. I'm gonna start saying that to Flee Um and he's going to love every damn second of it, or I'm disowning. Oh the stakes are high. Yeah, the stakes are high from Mr Flee I will say every time I watched

this movie. So right after she transforms into Catwoman and then she's on the prowl, as you might say, on the streets of Gotham, the first thing she does as Catwoman is to save a woman from being sexually assaulted by Oops, one of the few people of color in the movie, which unfortunately is very in line with like Tim because his movies are so aggressively white that he's even defended it um, which was like, why would I play non white people in my movie? And we're like Tim,

what did he say? Wait? Was was I'd have to look up the exact quote. We've discussed it on the show before. I think that this was around because he it was like to the point where he had to like walk this back. This was Did it have something to do with the Miss Peregrine's Peculiar Children House Peregrine Home for Peculiar Children? Yeah, okay. He said this to writer Rachel Simon in and it was on the Miss

Peregrine um Press Stork, he said. Quote. Nowadays people are talking about it more, he says, regarding on screen diversity. But quote, things either call for things or they don't. I remember back when I was a child watching The Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct, like okay, let's have an Asian child and a black child. I used to get more offended by that than just I grew up watching black sploitation movies, right, and I

said that's great. I didn't go like, Okay, there should be more white people in these movies. Unquote it it's just like the most white. This is the same as like every time anyone complains about their people clear casting anything like Star Wars or something, and the logic of like, oh, they can have their own movies and it's like no, like this is not you can't talk like this. You can't don't stop stop talking, like shut your mouth, Tim Burton.

So that's like, especially remembering him making those comments, like seeing that you're just like this is like a very intentional joy. This is intentional absolutely. So Catwoman is saving another woman from being sexually assaulted and then the woman's like, oh my gosh, thank you. But then Catwoman kind of victim blames the woman and it's like, well, you make it so easy. You're always just waiting around for some

batman to save you. And so it's always at this point in the movie when you see her save when you see Catwoman save this other person, and I'm always like, oh, she's about to go on this like vigilante almost like the movie Teeth, where she's like like, I'm just gonna

protect women and save women from these predatory men. And I always think that that's the direction the Catwoman character is going to go in, but she quickly abandons any sort of like ally ship to other women and then just like goes after Shrek, which I don't know, I mean, it's just I guess it's just like me having certain once and wishes for the Catwoman character, but I certainly would have liked for that to be the direction that

she went in. But like, it's sort of the same point as like when I mentioned this scene earlier where it's like you can understand why that is her reaction to saving that woman, Like it's not right obviously, but the way that she, like, the social conditioning around her basically is telling her this, and it's also why she rejects that kind of more feminine aesthetic as Cat Woman. Yeah. I honestly wasn't like super bugged by that, Like I think it makes a point. Yeah, yeah, I see what

you mean. Yeah, I think the only the only thing that I felt like in this movie was like characterizing the was it like ice princess, or like characterizing her as such a bimbo, very dizzy, as a as a proud bimbo and a bimbo apologist. I just feel like, yeah, making her just kind of a classic bimbo. Yeah, it's

a little cruel. Yeah, I mean it's such a small part of the movie, but unless she gets murdered, Yeah, it's always like a while like a movie where it's like, oh, we can only have one woman we're really thinking about in the movie, like we can't characterize more than one that would be whatever. I feel like the only other woman besides Catwoman and the Ice Princess who has any significant screen time. And it's not as though this woman has a lot. But there's a million of penguins. She

has a little dog love her. She seems to be one of penguins, like right hand minions. She's she's high up in the ranks. What's going on with her? But she doesn't speak until the very end, And it's her who's like giving the countdown. Is like of like, oh, the penguins are going to reach their destination and team minus fifteen seconds. She's really just there for fun. Yeah. I loved her. She's there for love of the game. She is like droning through narrating the height of the

action of the movie. She's like, the penguins are going in a different direction, looks like there's coming towards us. I just that's the kind of like Tim Burton character I really like. Of just like a woman who is bored by something very exciting that's always so fun. I uh, yeah, I liked her. The dog is so cute. Yeah, it's like a little busted. It's very cute. It's a good dog. It's a good boy. Um, feminist icon. The duck Boat, penguin, My god, the boat. We haven't even talked about the

duck Boat. It's so good. It's so it's so I love like, it's perfect when a movie is just like and we just talked about the many ways in which Tim Burton is a relic at this point, but I do love to watch a director absolutely abuse a big budget. It's so fun like, it's so like the It's cannon that he was just like, no performance artists, Let's go bigger, let's go full circus at the zoo. For no reason. We need animatronic penguins. We need people penguins, and we

need penguin penguins. There's nowhere around it. Um. The animal rights stuff in this movie, we can't go there because Michelle Fiber put a real bird in her mouth. So we wish that we're the best and hope it went on to thrive. Um. But it's just like, this movie is so The duck Boat. The duck Boat is wonderful. I love it. I'm obsessed with the duck Boat. The train, Why is there a train. I do want to shout out the penguins. They're so cute. They are so cute.

They're very good. They frowned when the penguin dies. So cute. It's so sad. They're sad for their friends. They're literally it's it's literally like if Grew died, what would happen. It's exactly like if Crew died, they would be beside themselves. They would not the Canada that they are like especially devoted to Grew because they've had like other masters, right, yeah, don't Yeah, they've had a lot of They've worked for a lot of people, but grew as special to that.

But they love Grew okay, because Grew takes all their boxes where It's like usually their bosses are really evil and also abusive towards them, but grew as evil and nice to them, so they love Grew. He takes care of them. Okay. They kind of grew up together. They grew up together. They grew they grew up and they grew up together. There was I was sitting, Okay, this is my last tangent of the episode. I promised I was taking a mega bus from Rhode Island to New weekend,

because yeah, I'm kind of a fucking sleb. But I was sitting next to this college student who was talking on the phone with one of his boys for the duration of the bus. It was it was really long and obnoxious, but it was just like he was such a bro with like three brain cells that he was really like getting some good quips and every once and again like he was just he was objectifying his classmates the whole call boy. But at one point he was like, yeah,

you know, Christina, she kind of really glue. How do I she glew up over the summer? Did I say that? Right? She blew up? And then you could hear the guy on the other line and be like, yeah, no, I get it. And then he just like I was like, oh god, that's incredible. She blew up. He couldn't think of the word glowed amazing. He was literally coming from Brown University. It was just how we get Max Trex out there blew up over the summer. It was nasty.

Al Right, Well, Batman Returns? Does anyone have anything else to say about Batman Returns? Um There was supposed to be a sequel where Catwoman Michelle Fifefer. Catwoman had her own own story. It was supposed to also be done with Daniel Waters and Tim Burton Um and it follows her to a like more Las Vegas e location. It sounds like it would have been great, but it never happened. Damn it. Here's my last thing to say. Well, I

guess I have like two less things. One of them is I do think it's funny that people complain about like Batman not being in this movie enough, because ultimately it is a Catwoman movie, Like Batman is fairly incidental to what goes on in the film. This is a movie about Catwoman and the penguin, like it's their movie. They are the two far more strongly motivated characters, and Batman is just like, well, I'm Batman, so I have

to stop these people. But yeah, exactly, like he is called to the scene, like he did not create the scene.

I kind of like that this movie is like comfortable with Batman being a little bit boring, Like yeah, because I don't even think Batman is like obviously he's like not a boring character, but I like that this movie is sort of like, well, he's not the most interesting character in the movie, and we're comfortable with that he returns, but you know, kind of to a more incidental degree than you would imagine, Right, I totally agree with that. I love My second point is that dating bed is hot.

We should recognize that more. I think as a society. Absolutely, his energy, Oh my god, he's hot. He's a socialist, his politics are kind of immaculate. What is hotter than that? Yeah? An, he's single, I think, so not divorced, but I guess I don't know, Like I know that he and Perlin are like separated, but they're not divorced. I don't find that disqualifying. Yeah, if he comes up, but I was like, if he if he comes up on Bumble, yeah obviously, no,

no question. Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for him on Riya. Yeah I'm on Riya. Have I had any luck? They're not one iota. I've still not used a dating app. So I was just throwing Bumble out there because I know it's exists. Yeah, I was on one of them. I want on dating apps for like a month and then I was like, I don't think I enjoy this, and so I stopped. They're not great anyway. We saund like Selena Kyle at the beginning of the movie of her like it's a good it's a good note to

wrap up on because this movie is so horny. So now a little bit exactly does the movie pass the Bechdel test? I agree with you, Jamie, I would argue. When Selena talks to her female cat whose name we know because it's miss Kitty, that passes because here's the conversation. Selena comes home, cat goes me ow. Selena says, Miss Kitty back more sexual escapades. You refuse to share. So they've talked before establishing a relationship. They have a close bond,

although miss Kitty is withholding. Miss Kitty says miaw. Selena says, drink your dinner. Kat says me ow. Selena says, what how can anyone be so pathetic? Yes, to you, I seem pathetic, but I'm a working girl. I gotta pay. Then, yes, Selena, I mean, and that passes the Becktel tests. That passes. I don't know what to tell you. It passes flying. I feel comfortable with that. I feel ecstatic about that.

Is there much else outside of that? There is a brief interaction between Catwoman and the Ice Princess, but they don't actually speak to each other on screen. Yeah, at least not really. It would have been fun if she could have had a little tete a tete with Penguins board associate. But I don't even know if we if that character get the name. I just really liked her, So Wikipedia just lists her as the poodle lady. Okay, love that. Yeah, that's great. I support that Ice Princess

is nice. She seemed really nice. I would have loved to get lunch with her, sweetie pie. Yeah, she was great. Absolutely, R I P T I P. But who among us has not wanted to vault into the giant tree at Cavilla Center. It's true, It's true. And you know, like if I've got to go at the hands of Danny de Vito, you know it's going to be memorable for sure,

exactly exactly. People will talk about it after the fact. Okay, So how about our nipple scale, though, which is a scale of zero to five nipples, and which we rate the movie based on looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm gonna go like three and a half of this. I might be bringing some of my bias into that score, because I do love this movie so much. As we've discussed, there are there's some things about the

coding of the penguin character. It's able is m and anti Semitism that is so present in the coding of so many villains. This movie is kind of no exception, but there it's intended or not. It's like it's worth acknowledging. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, a few other like little missteps here and there. But so the screenwriter Daniel Waters was brought in after another writer who I think wrote the screenplay for the first Batman movie, Sam Ham. Sam Ham, his name is Sam Ham.

That's going to bring some baggage with it if you grow up at that name. He was exactly. He was originally involved in the development of the sequel of Batman Returns and had written I don't know if he wrote a full draft or if he was just sort of like outlining the story, but basically he was replaced by Daniel Waters or he just like his involvement didn't happen

the whole way through the development process. But he had written a version of Catwoman that Daniel Waters changed because Sam Ham's version of Catwoman was just like a quote fetishy sexual fantasy fem faetale. Daniel Waters changed her to a and again this is pulling from wiki Pete here scholarly journal um changed to a working class, disenchanted secretary, writing her as an allegory of contemporary feminism, right, And

I feel like the movie kind of nails. It works, and we're speaking of white feminism from the early nineties, yes, but spice Girls feminism. But it works. But it works at least for this movie, certainly doing more than a lot of superhero movies are doing now still to this day. If there's a woman in it, it's feminist, right, right, And they're like, yeah, sure, it's like, let's just have her say some sort of T shirt equips at some point and then Thor is Natalie Portman now until she doesn't,

And that's awesome. No, not really, Yeah, don't worry, not really. I didn't see that. We would never let a woman be thre. So I just appreciate the movie takes a lot of time to characterize the Selena Kyle slash Catwoman character. It gives her an internal life. We see her at work, we see her at home, we understand all of the context for why she becomes Catwoman, and just all of the societal pressures that she's fighting against. Could she have

been more of an ally to other women? Yes, but I think you know, look, this is also how long does this movie take over? This this takes place three days? Yeah, I think you know she would have gotten there. You know, she just needed a little more time. She just needed more time. That's what she's doing now, exactly. Yeah, she's still but shell Fiber Catwoman is still canonically out there, right, absolutely, so I'm sure she does all sorts of incredible The

character she plays, an antman, is actually Catwoman. Everything about that interesting, right, She's an antman? What a crossover? Right? I only saw the second one, so I was confused. Well, she's not in the first one, Okay that I was just confused by the movie anyway, So all of the characterizations she gets, she's given an internal conflict which a lot of female characters are simply not given in movies. And she she's just like a more interesting and fun

character than Batman in this movie. I think she and Penguin are kind of tied for like most like well characterized, compelling characters for sure. Yes, So with all of that in mind, I'm going to give the movie a three point five nipple rating. I'll give one to Michelle Pfeiffer, I'll give one to Miss Kitty, I'll give one to feminist icon the duck Boat, and I'll give my half nipple to the line Life's a bitch now, so am I? Yeah, I'll go. I'll go three and a half as well.

This movie fucking rules. It's the outside of a bedel cast lens. If I was just watching this movie, I'd be like, Yeah, greatest thing I've ever seen. Cool, great, But yeah, I mean I think that like we've we've kind of singled out this stuff where it's you know, maybe a little dated in some areas, and there are certainly tropes that we've discussed in the past that are present here, um, and you know deserve acknowledgement and calling out.

But in terms of like a superhero movie in ninety two, this like movie is doing a hell of a lot of cool stuff. And I love Michelle Pfeiffer. I love her cat Woman and disputed top tiercat Woman. No one's doing it like she was doing it. So I'm gonna give it three and a half nipples on a give to to Michelle and the remainder to Miss Kitty. Yeah, I'll get a neat for I like from not this specific angle. I would just give it a straight five out of five. I think it's a great I think

it's a perfect movie. Um. I mean we've talked about its flaws, but it is a perfect movie for if I had to distribute them, one for pre Catwoman Michelle, five for one for post Catwoman Michelle, five for one for the duck Boat, and one for a Day Debuto. Perfect. Perfect of course. Also it's time for cat Woman Facts with Caitlin. Finally, cat Woman, as far as I know, has two nipples. And that's Catwoman Facts with Caitlin. Nice. You're welcome, thank you, Good for her, Good for her,

Karen m hmm. First of all, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. This was delightful, an absolutely iconic movie to discuss it. We've had such a nice time. Please come back anytime, any time. Literally just asks me anytime please, I mean truly, like tomorrow would be great. What are you doing. Let's let's let's do bat nipples next time. I have not seen bat nipple, so that would be fascinating for me. It's like it's a pretty wild ride. It's not this movie. It's not

I wouldn't compare it to this movie. But it's got a lot coming for that's Clooney Batman. Is that right? Yes? Yes, I think so, okay, because then there's it's Valve Batman after that, right, yeah, I always messed up the order. Oh I forgot there's a Valve Batman. Too many Batman's anyways, Karen uh, where can we find your online? And what

would you like to plug? Um? You can find me on Twitter at Karen Wayhan as long as the platform is still active, and you can find me on Instagram at the Karen Hahn and I would love to plug my book as of recording. It is coming out in a little less than a week. It is called Bong June Hoe Distant Cinema. It is coming out from Abraham's slash Little White Lies. It's just all about Bong June host work. Please buy my book, Thank you please, I

can't wait, truly, congratulations, thank you so much. It's wild because like some of the preorders have started arriving already, so which is terrifying to see that it is out in the world. Like some people haven't it's loose, but Jesus Luz. Yeah, one of my favorite, right up there with Life's of Beach. And so thank you so much for coming on truly, yeah cock, so come back anytime. Thank you so much for having me, and truly it would be an honor and a joy to come back

on the show. I can't wait. We'll email you tomorrow, amazing. You can also follow us on Twitter as long as that platform exists, and yeah, or Instagram. At buck cast you can follow our Patreon a k a. Matreon. Five bucks a month gets you to bonus episodes. It's usually just me and Caitlin kind of choosing movies around a theme. So of course it's December, we're doing our holiday round up, so we're doing Linday Lohan Netlix movie. You know, we're

bringing the hits. We also just did mob March, which we observed in November. So if we had to put our thoughts on just because I feel like people have been harassing us about The Godfather for so long, and by that I mean people who have never listened to our show and don't think what we have to say it should be taken seriously. So we put that behind a paywall. I think we take a pretty good job.

We both liked the movie, so funk you Young Robert DeNiro, My god, hot, young Albaccino, Oh my god, hot, get inside me. All right, let's that's all. At Patreon dot com slash backtel cast for five dollars a month. Uh, and then you've also got our merch. Hey, you're not sure what to get your loved ones for the holidays, consider going to Tea Parts get them a copy of Karen's book and then go then go to tea Public dot com slash the Bectel cast for some merchand day.

I am actually someone who has received Bechtel Cast merge for a holiday and it was a great gift, so I would recommend it. Yeah, and we didn't even plan that. We didn't even plan that. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Anyway. Life's a bitch, and so are we. By