Basic Instinct with Sarah Marshall

It will be me describing how I will murder my lovers, and then when my lovers end up dead in like a year or so, this podcast will be my alibi because I'm not going to be so foolish as to kill my lovers in the exact same way I described on this podcast. Okay, yeah, okay, So I mean and and honestly, because you got so close to my face while you were telling me that I believe you, and also I'm in love with you perfect and don't worry,

I will not frame you or anything. Oh no, you wouldn't know, because what we have is real as opposed to all the others. I'm not like the other boys. Um, Michael Douglas, Great, Kiss, Kiss what I'm Katherine Zada Jones is I. Honestly, I there was like a world in which I was going to try to go through this whole episode, referring to Michael Douglas as Catherine Zada Jones's husband because that's how I think of him. Welcome to

the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Dronte, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Using the Bechtel tests simply is a jumping off point. But you know what the Bechtel test is? I don't, because I do, Can you tell me? Well? It is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel

Wallace Test. A lot of different versions of it. The one we use requires that a piece of media have two characters with names of a marginalized gender talking to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. And it should be a sort of meaningful interaction. You know it when you see it, and uh, you know, we've we've we've got it. We've got kind of a It's complicated today. Everything is complicated today. It's very it's a very complicated day. Yes, you're on the

picktel Cast. Do you remember that Facebook? Did you ever have that? Oh, it's like a relations relationship status. I loved that. That's so inviting conflict um that you have to respect it. I don't have the personality to publicly declare it's complicated, but there were plenty of teenagers who did. Wow. Yeah, they'd be like, it's complicated with Chris are. They were like doing it in earnest because everyone I saw who

put that it was like a joke. Who would be like, it's complicated with my bff t. He joked a joke, right, Yes, uh no, No, when you're fourteen, it's serious. It really is complicated because you don't you don't even understand what's happening to your body. So everything, even if it's going great in your in a relationship, it's still complicated. Yeah. Anyways, welcome to the backcast. We're talking about basic Instinct today. Long time request, and we were simply waiting for the

perfect guest to come along, and here she is. Yes, let's get her, let's get her in the mix. She is the host of Your Wrong About podcast and the co host of You Are Good Podcast, it's Sarah Marshall. Hi, welcome. This says what a how are we going to talk about this movie? Like? Because defies? What is it? Yeah? I don't know. It is so I've I've read so many takes that my brain started leaking out of my nose.

There doesn't seem to be any or I mean, this is true of every movie, but like this one in particular, it's like there's just no right answer. It doesn't seem like everyone's got a different take. We hate it, we love it, we're reclaiming it, we're putting it in the trash. It's good, it's bad. We don't know. It's empowerment for women, it's horrible for women. Yeah, it's it's every take on every end, Fanti cop. We don't know, we don't know. I'll tell you what we know. It is. It was

a three million dollar screenplay. That is one thing that is known. What a thing to know, which is absurd and which is more than Sharon Stone got paid to be in the movie. She only got paid five hundred thousand dollars to be in this movie, right, which is like obviously good money, but not for what she fucking did. Also, this screenplay was written in thirteen days, which makes so much sense and right right, And the budget was million dollars and only thousand of that went to the lead

of the movie. That makes me feel very bad. There there's so much I mean, there's also not only is there a ton to talk about about the content, but there's so much to talk about about behind the scenes some of it. I mean, we'll just see where this goes, because there's like some things that aren't necessarily relevant to the topic of this show that I was sort of still like, what the fuck? I just wrote so much

stuff down. Every fact I learned was scarier than the last. Right. Yeah, I think this episode may just be as chaotic as the movie itself. That sounds great. I'm very excited to talk about it, and I feel like this discussion honestly, I I hope it will be clarifying for me because I'm all over the place. I did enjoy watching it. It's highly entertaining or is it. I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, I'm board, it's over two hours long. Why

isn't this half hour shorter? It's taking itself very seriously, which is a flash doesn't have But one of my favorite things about this movie is that we have two women famously and to distinguish them from each other and create some symbolism, one wears beige clothing and the other wears brown clothing. It's I mean, how else were you supposed to tell high status white women apart in the nineties. The only way you could do it except by what color neutrals they put on head to toe that morning.

So many loose neutrals in this movie, which have kind of come all the way back around. Much like many elements of this movie. I was just thinking that true murdering, murdering people is so in right now, It's totally in fashion. Look as a as a bisexual murderer, representation matters. It's just nice to see an early version of the media landscape we have today. So I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on this movie, Sarah, Like, what is your

history with Basic Instinct. I think I first saw it when I was like fourteen or fifteen, and I just knew that it was a movie that adults talked somewhat

fearfully about. I think specifically I had heard of it in the part and Sleepless in Seattle, where Tom Hanks's son obviously alludes to it because he's like, so, if you date, you're probably gonna have sex, right, And his dad's like, I certainly hope so, and he's like, and if you have sex, I think she's going to scratch up your back, which he like learned from probably from watching Basic Instinct on cable or any of the other abundant like sort of Glossy got really bad reviews but

did amazing when they hit the video rental market movies of the time, like other Joe esther Haws films, including Sliver and Jade. So I think I guess like I watched it because I was like, this is a movie that scandalize as adult ELTs, and I want to see something that scandalized adults. And then I remember just being like, I don't know what I think about this. It felt like it was too deep a look into like the

sordidness of adult culture. And then when I came back to it as an adult, the thing I really noticed was that the score by Gerry Goldsmith is doing so much work I think to sort of try and be Hitchcockian, right, It's like it's its own character and it's a very loud character that won't stop screaming, and it always kicks in after Catherine is like I enjoyed having sex with him, It's like what, Like, oh, that's it's like a big scary reveal just happened. And it also does that when

she's like, I was having sex with my girlfriend or whatever. Right, it did feel like I was trying to put myself in brain and I was like, that was supposed to be like a huge reveal, right, like her queerness was a reveal when it's like you could also watch that scene and still have it be very Verhoeven exploitative, where she like grabs her girlfriend's boom the second she enters the room. But it's like you can also watch that with goggles. Would be like, oh, okay, she's with someone

and that is why he's upset. But it's clearly like he's upset that she's with someone and that person is yeah, very upset to him. This movie is so weird. This movie is so weird, Jamie, what's your history with it? Not much? Um, I've never seen it before we started prepping for this episode. It's weird. I feel like Sharon Stone is just popping up in my life a lot. Recently. I've gotten many, many recommendations to read her her memoir that came out last year, which I haven't started yet,

but I'm very, very excited. And then I also recently saw Casino for the first time, and she's amazing in movie. Because Sarah, you were talking to me about Casino. Yeah, I love her so much in Casino. She's amazing Casino. If you've seen bass against inco, watch Casino and see what it's like when Sharon's giving it a percent right and like she's given like a part that's maybe a little more cogent um. But but yeah, I don't know. I've been in a Sharon state of mind. I was

very ready and excited for this. And also Paul Verhoeven just came out with a new movie that I want to see, Benedetta. It's a lesbian nun thriller, so I will be seeing that and hopefully, Well this is interesting too because it's like he's returning to lesbians. I hope he does a good job. Growth is important. Yeah, we'll see. I know it's it's it's so I've got a series of He's tricky, He's tricky. This is the second for

Hoven movie we've covered on the show. We covered Starship Troopers last year, which um is an extremely different movie, but there are still themes that kind of crossover in most of his work, and I'm interested to talk about how this movie depicts police work. Also, like there's just there's just a lot going on. I don't know how to feel about any of it. My take I I've done a ton of research and done a ton of reading, which I know how to do. Congrats. My takeaway is

that I love Sharon Stone. So we're gonna have to really tease this apart today. Caitlin, what's your history with Basic Instinct? My history is that I saw Hot Shots Part Do as a child, a movie I watched over and over and over again, which very heavily spoofs. It's a spoof. It is a spoof, not specifically of Basic Instant, because it's spoofs a bunch of different movies of that era. Oh it's so it's like that, it's sort of like, what are those other like like scary movie, scary movie,

but like the Leslie Nielsen movie. Yeah exactly, yes, So, um, I'm learning anyway, the very famous scenes in Basic Instinct are heavily referenced in Hot Shots Part Do, but I didn't understand the references to Basic Instinct or any of the other movies it's spoofs until years later when I finally got around to watching all those other movies. But anyway, so a lot of the like famous imagery from Basic

Instinct I was very familiar with. And then when I saw the movie for the first time, which was I think I was in college, I was like, Oh, that's what Hot Shots Part Do was referencing. So I saw I so funny. What are the things that it's specifically spoofs in this The scene where you see Sharon stones vagina, the scene that I just kept referring to that as thus seen because I had not seen this movie and everyone knows that scene right, it's like the chess Burster

an alien, it's that big of a surprise. And Hot Shots Part Do, however, you that's shot differently. It's shot with the woman from behind and you just see her leg very um exaggeratedly lift up over her head to

like cross to the other side. That's pretty good. And then there's a sex scene and Hot Shots Part Do where she's having sex with Charlie Sheen is unfortunately in the movie, and she ties his arms to the bed post with this white silk scarf, and then she is like reaching for something and you're like, oh my god,

what's she reaching for? And then she grabs a screwdriver and kind of unscrews part of the bed frame to make it creakier so that when they continue to have sex, it's like way more like you have to have hot shots part do because those movies can get pretty like gnarly and exploitative and like really bad. And that sounds just like I think he's just like superhand in this. Yeah, yeah, what if Catherine was just really handy. Does either of you ever watch those thumb movies? Yes? Oh my god,

And I took foreverard to download to thumb Wars. There's a Caitlin I should show in thumb Tanic. Yes, there's it's a series. It's it's the thumber Verse. But it's like a series of spoof movies where it's just like a spoof movie but only with thumbs. It was really funny. Me and my cousins used to watch thumb Wars long before I saw actual Star Wars. I thought I saw thumb Wars many times beautiful, and it's just as good. So in conclusion, I saw Basic for the first time

in college. I saw it again. I think I rewatched it right when we covered Fatal Attraction, because I get those two movies confused a lot because they're both Michael Douglas and it's both about a scary woman who murders and who wants to have sex with Michael Douglas for some reason. Right, It's it's like literally, it's like, oh, Michael Douglas is a character who's threatened by a woman's agency,

but it turns out he's right. That's a classic class So sorry, the movie was called thumb Wars the Phantom Cuticle. Pretty funny. I love it. It's pretty great. Sorry, Okay, I done so anyway. Yeah, I had seen Basic Instinct a couple of times before prepping, and I've seen it twice since we started prepping. And I, similarly, who don't really know what to make of this movie. I'm kind of all over the place. There's so much to unpack. I feel like my notes are so long, and yet

I feel like I've barely scratched the surface. Like it sounds like we're all kind of on the same page here, of like, well, let's just talk about it and see what happens. You got us for Hoven uh for. Movies are honestly very hard to cover on this show. That makes sense. Um, so we're going to try. Let's take a quick break and then I'll get into the recap. Wait. Sorry, I'm like the guy who wrote thumb Wars has written

so many famous movies. What written He wrote The Nutty Professor, he wrote Patch Adams, he wrote Jimmy Neutron Boy Genius. He wrote Kung Pau Enter the Fist, which I used to really love. And he wrote Bruce and Evan Almighty Wow, and also, most famously, thumb Wars. I am interested in thumb Tanic. It's pretty good. All the next time I come over, I'll it's got to be somewhere. I'll find it. Okay, I'll pay money to rent it. Let's charge it to the Yeah, that's what Patreon money is for to watch tank.

I think our our matron's will will understand. Maybe maybe that's what we could cover for our for our Titanic episodes, because we're running out of Titanic content. UH speak for yourself. Sorry, you're right. Yeah, it's on YouTube in full. Okay, perfect. Okay, So here's basic instinct and I'll place a trigger warning at the top here because, um, there is a rape scene in the movie. Okay, So we open on a woman having sex with a man. We never quite see

her face because her blonde hair of obscuring it. We see her tie up the man's hands with a white silk scarf. Then she pulls out an ice pick and stabs him repeatedly to death. Titanic reference. Um oh, because of the ice pick slash iceberg. Yeah, maybe if the that the joke going there was maybe if they had nice pick they could on board. She would have been like, oh, man, I love doing this, sice a whole glacier guest for me exactly. Wow, makes you think. Then we cut two.

Detective Nick Curran played by Michael Douglas and his partner Gus Moran there at the scene of the crime. We are in San Francisco, by the way. The victim, Johnny Boss, was last seen the night before with his girlfriend Katherine Trammel. So Nick and Gus go to Katherine's house to question her. She isn't there, but Katherine's friend Roxy is, and Roxy directs them to where Katherine is, which is like her second home summer where she's being hot on a balcony. Right,

Nick and Gus Fine, Katherine trammel Um. She is Sharon Stone. Of course, she's very sultry and sexy, and she has the same exact hey and body type and skin color as the lady who murdered Johnny Boss. I wonder if she did it, which is so wild, you're like she and she did. And then Catherine tells the detectives, Yeah, I was fucking that guy, but I didn't go home with him and I didn't kill him. Now go away.

That's a fun place to start the movie, where she's just I mean and and yes does the movie ultimately undercut the fact that she enjoys sex and isn't ashamed to admit it and implies that if you, if that's you, you two could be a murderer. But I really enjoyed her like delivery in that scene, and when she's just like telling, like Sharon Stone telling to cops to go funk themselves is an inherently satisfying experience, no matter the subtext of what the movie wants me to think I

like to see her neg cops. I hope that if ever I have the misfortune of having to interact with a cop, I have the guts to say, I don't want to talk to you, fuck off and get the funk outta here. I mean, she's also yeah, she's also protected by a lot of privilege, but it's still very cathartic to watch. Yeah, they got to go on a tour of all her real estate before they meet her and see all her sports cars in the driveway. Yeah, they're like, oh, she's got holdings, she's got a Picasso. Yeah.

So then they leave at her request, and Nick goes to see a counselor Beth played by Jean triple Horn awesome name, who he is mandated by Internal Affairs to see for reasons that we don't yet know. They're talking and he refers to the sexual relationship he used to have with Beth, and then she tells him that she

still misses him so already, Like it's so funny. There's like police corruption for the jump where they're like, okay, so everyone in the office is aware of this relationship, which we find out right away, and his him keeping his job relies on you know, him remaining in her good favor or her being hung up on him, and everyone's like, yep, that's fine, that's which, I'm sure, which which is like, I'm sure not too far from the truth. Na, your ex girlfriend will be very therapeutic, right. Oh gosh,

there's there's so much this movie's views on psychiatry. There's so much yes, yes, yes, yes, Okay. So then Nick and Gus go over more details of this case and the victim, Johnny Boss, who was a former rock and roll star. They also discussed Katherine Trammel as a suspect. She is an author, and it turns out that she published a book the year before under a pen name, about a retired rock and all star who gets murdered by his girlfriend when she ties up his hands with

a white silk scarf and stabs him with an ice pick. Amazing. So Katherine is starting to seem extra suspicious. So then Nick and Gus bring Catherine to the station to question her on the way. She tells him about a new book she's writing about a detective who falls for the wrong woman and then she kills the detective. I think that there's so many scenes in this movie that I know that we um, what have we renamed the bush

Emmy test? But we could run the bush Emmy test on Sharon stone several times in this movie and be like, if this were a regular looking person saying these things, she would be so in jail, Like it's wild how in jail she would be? Yeah, absolutely so. Then at the police station, the assistant district Attorney A. K Wayne Knight questions her. Wayne Knight was like cranking out the

hits in this series of years. Oh yeah, because in the next year he's in Jurassic Park and oh my gosh, he gets to see a vagina and a dinosaur in a single calendar year. We should all be so lucky. So he's questioning her, and this is when we get the famous Sharon Stone on crosses her legs and flashes her volva scene. There's plenty to talk about with this, we'll get to it. Katherine says, do you think I would be so foolish as to murder someone in the

exact way I described in my book? So she's basically using her book as an alibi, which is what a few psychologists had said she would do if she is in fact the murderer right, and even though Catherine passes a lie detector test, Nick still thinks that she's lying and that she is probably guilty, especially because of some deaths in the past that Catherine could be linked to, such as her parents died in a voting accident, a professor she had in college was murdered, and a boxer

boyfriend died while they were dating. To quote her, everyone I love dies and she doesn't seem to be wrong there, And Stephen Tobolski is there, which I think is fun. Yes, yes, I didn't see that coming. That's yet another thrilling basic instinct twist. He's also having a good couple of years, because he's in Groundhog Day right around this time, being ed Ryerson. Well, I'm glad that the boys are thriving in the early nineties. Good for them. The white men

are having a blast. I think that they're still doing well to this day. Yeah, I think you may be right. Um, Okay. So that night Nick goes home with Beth the counselor, and then again trigger warning for rape, he rapes her. Although the movie is as I'm concerned, treats this as a consensual sex scene, I think that there's a there's a well, let's we'll get to that conversation. We'll get to it. Yeah, yeah, I felt a little bit differently, but I see what you're saying. Then Nick tails Katherine

for a while. There's a scene where she's driving like a bat out of hell and he's chasing her. He pays her another visit. He discovers that she has all these articles about him, and we find out why he has been mandated to see a counselor. Apparently he had shot a couple of tourists a while back, and Catherine has been following this story for quite some time because, according to her, she's using him as inspiration for the detective in the book she's writing, he's a killer cop.

It's there's so much to talk about. She keeps calling him shooter. She also fixes him a drink and then breaks the ice with fishemy test. She's in jail again. Right then Nick realizes she has access to his psychiatric file, which she apparently got from this guy in internal affairs, this guy Nielsen, who then ends up dead. He was shot in the head and everyone thinks that Nick did it, so he gets put on leave, but Nick thinks Catherine Tremell did it. So then Catherine shows up at his place.

She's being all seductive and messing with his head. He meets up with her a little later at a dance club. Then they go back to her place and have sex. She ties him up with a white silk scarf and we think maybe she's going to stab him with an ice pick, but she doesn't. She just like collapses on him in pleasure or something. Um. Then it's called ecstasy. Caitlin ever heard of it? Yeah? Nick has had a great time. He's like, Wow, that was the fun the century.

Katherine is like it was a good start. We also have learned by this point that Katherine is in some sort of romantic and or sexual relationship with that woman Roxy, who we met at the beginning, although we don't really well we can talk about this too, but we don't know that much about their relationship. But Roxy does seem to be very jealous of Nick. And then someone tries to run over Nick in what looks like Katherine's car.

There's a high speed chase. The person chasing Nick crashes and it turns out to be Roxy, who has died in the crash. They kill their gays folks, and we're may be meant to think, oh, so was it Roxy who maybe killed Johnny Boss question Mark? But now it's the person that you are told in the opening scene did it right? So then Nick goes to see Katherine again.

She is upset about Roxy's death. She's all like, oh, I have such bad luck dating women, and she tells him about this woman that she met in college, Lisa Hoberman, who she slept with once, and then this woman started stalking Catherine. I immediately was like, oh, so Beth, But the movie takes it like fifteen minutes to be like and it was Beth. You're like, I think I could I think you could tell because you're told, Like, why else would you be told? They went to college to

get right? This movie kind of like skirt around Some thinks nobody knows there are multiple nicknames for Elizabeth and that this is a really bright quest right, Yes that too? Especially yeah, because also Catherine originally was like her name is Lisa Oberman and then he's like I couldn't find anyone named Lisa Oberman and she's like, I said, that's so goofy. I like, why what a waste of five minutes,

but it made me laugh. The two lines that made me laugh the most in this movie where I said Hoberman, which should be added to every movie at some point, a very human misunderstanding that has no place in a thriller. And then at the end when Beth says I love you was dying, I was like, this damn movie makes no sense. Have some dignity, Beth, I know, and she's She's like the twist, I'm not a murderer, and I love men so much, even when they're rapist murderers. Remember

my little Simpson's key Chane, I only loved you. Shout out to bart Art high bart visibility. Truly, there's also some pizza Hut visibility. I just wanted to shut up at um. My favorite line of dialogue in the movie, towards the very beginning, one of the few people of color in the movie. It's another cop named Sam. He says there's cum stains all over the sheets. He sure does, and that is a line of dialogue. And then that's

a sag card. Yeah, okay. So Nick looks into this Lisa person who turns out to be Beth, the counselor who works for the police department. Beth says, Katherine stalked Beth in college. Katherine says Beth stok Katherine in college. They're both claiming that the other one was like single White Female NG the other which also comes out this same year, right, So it's not even like they were ripping it from there. They were just this was just

something that was on the brain. I wonder if there's like a real life story that was like on people's mind, because I was I was like, that's so bizarre. Why were women all supposed to be murdering each other in the early nineties right about? Yeah, which you've covered extensively there, Yeah, not so much the idea that women were murdering other women at this time though. That's really interesting. Yeah, I've covered men's perpetual fear of being murdered by women, right, Yes,

so Single White Female really subverts some troll hopes. It's like women can murder other women too, Like, hey, we can murder each other too, don't forget it. And that's feminism. Yes, third wave feminism is amazing. It makes so much sense. Okay, so we're not sure who to trust, we're not sure who's telling the truth, but now Nick thinks that Beth is the prime suspect, and she's seeming more and more suspicious because Beth's husband was mysteriously shot and killed a

few years back. Meanwhile, Katherine ends things with Nick because she was just using him for her book, which she has finished. Nick is all hurt, and then he goes with Gus to meet up with another woman who knew Catherine and Beth in college. But it's a setup. The killer stabs and kills Gus with an ice pick. Nick rushes in. Beth is right there and I again because Nick thinks that she's the prime suspect, he shoots her so abruptly, like yeah, I mean, really, is uh being

a cop about it? Right? And then the cops find a bunch of incriminating evidence at the crime scene and in Beth's apartment, so it seems like she was the killer all along. Nick goes back to Catherine. She takes him back. She's all like, I don't want to lose you. They have sex. It seems like again maybe she's going to stab him with an ice pick, but then she doesn't. But but then we pan down to see that she has an ice pick on the floor that she maybe was or is going to kill him with. So now

we're like, oh, she is the killer. She apparently just framed Beth and that's the end of the movie. Every Woman is a murderer. How how many times have we talked about this on the show? Every Woman is a stone cold killer. Yeah, so let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss, and we're back. Uh, where where should we start, gang, I mean, where where makes sense? I mean, I guess what we can sort of just state the obvious of Katherine Trammel being a

pretty classic fem fatale character. You know, she's seductive, she's cunning, she uses her sexuality to lure men in and then kill them. But she's also like a fum fatale dialed up to an eleven because a lot of like fum fatale characters were from movies of like the forties and fifties, which were under the Hayes production Code restrictions, which meant that there couldn't be sex, nudity, overt sexuality, any romance or implied sex had to be heterosexual. There could be

no graphic violence, things like that. So Catherine is this like post production code version of the film Fatale, which means we see nudity, we see sex. She loves to have sex, she loves fucking, she talks about it all the time. And then she also seems to be able to like very easily detach emotion from sex, which the movie seems to be making a judgment call about because of these are all the things that make Katherine Tramel so sinister and so fatal. It's like she's probably a murderer.

She's having sex casually, right, Like that's repeatedly insinuate, you know, all while and it's I guess part of what I struggle with this movie is I can't parse out always self aware it's being but yeah, like all all, well, you know, Michael Douglas is having casual sex all the time and including non consensual casual sex, and um, isn't he's not a well actually he is a murderer, but it's not as big a deal when he does it. It's so confused, like he doesn't well, he's at work,

so it's better. It's very confusing. So something's been in the air on the pod lately. We've been covering a lot of different from Fatale characters. We did double indemnity. We did a simple favor and now we're doing basic instinct, And yeah, I mean it's I understand. I guess why people have a hard time with this movie because a lot of Catherine's dialogue and a lot of Sharon Stone's performance.

I think it's like very reclaimable because it's so matter of fact and good where she you know, when she's like I wasn't dating him, I was fucking him, You're like, yeah, that's exciting, you know, or like are you sad he's dead? Yes, because I liked fucking him. Like that's it's so like can't be it funny and like you don't get to see women talk like that very often. But also we're supposed to think that she's a supervillain, right, so it's

a it's it's tricky. Right. On one hand, it's the villainizing a sexually liberated woman, which is what the fem fay towels whole thing is is like, well, a woman who is sexy and and you're seduced by her and she likes sex, Well, obviously she's evil because sexual liberation

and a woman is scary. But then, like you said, Jamie, like there's an argument to be made that that's still representation on screen of a sexually liberated woman, and you don't often get to see a woman just like very openly talk about how much she enjoys sex and how she likes men who give her pleasure, and she seems to be prioritizing her pleasure over giving a man pleasure.

And it's not a role model situation, but it is, like, I don't know this movie is for adults, hopefully, I mean, I guess what I saw, and it was, like it is kind of cathartic to see whether this was intended or not, which I don't really think it was. But like, see a woman who is like, by far the smartest person in the room, playing a bunch of cops and doing whatever the funk she wants, like that is inherently exciting,

like and and fun to watch. I mean, she's she's cool, she's she's like, what if I commit a bunch of murders and don't try to hide it and then when I'm questioned about it, I'll basically be like, yeah, I'm a murderer, and then I'll just keep getting away with it. Let's just do that again. That was fun last time. It's I mean, and it's like she got when they quote unquote arrest her the first time to take her

down for the scene, like the questioning scene. I just like it is the most like rich white lady arrest ever where she's like, you're arresting me, Okay, we'll let me change first, and you're just like she but like the way that sheared Stone like owns every second of it is so I mean, I really love watching her

in this movie. And and I'm not that's not even really in defense of the movie as much as it is of like watching this I get why this movie has severe detractors, and I get why it has huge camp fans, which is feel like it's true of a lot of Verhoeven stuff. Um. And also it's like most of the people that she kills seem like they sucked. Well maybe not her parents. We don't know that they were rich white people, so chances are so she and she's awesome, So it's kind of hard anyways, and I

like that. Okay, so other elements of her character before we get to the biphobia discussion, which we which needs

to be had, things I liked about Catherine. I like that she everyone in this movie is doing a police corruption, like literally everyone every main character is involved in, but she's the She's the only one that's doing like police corruption for sort of good, Like she's she's the only person in the movie who I mean, and it's for selfish means, she doesn't care, but she does almost expose Michael Douglas as a murderous cop in a way that

most people wouldn't have been able to. She gets his records, She's constantly like four shootings in five years, all accidents. Doesn't sound legit to me, like which I again, it's like Paul Verhoven didn't write this movie, but it sounds like he demanded that it be rewritten a lot of times, and he does have a preoccupation with like militarized police, which I do think kind of comes out in this movie.

It's like, such as making the call to make your protagonist a cop who is a rapist and a murderer, which is not uncommon things for cops to be in in the US in particular. So I thought that that was like interesting that she was kind of using her power and like intelligence to do a police corruption in her own interest. Um. Meanwhile, everyone else's police corruptions are for the police, where it's like, we gotta protect Michael

Douglas and therefore they're fine. Yeah. I also love how he's the protagonist, and I feel like this was made with the expectation that he's like, like, I think he's supposed to be kind of a noir antiher. But I assume that the audience when this came out was supposed to be like, oh no, that for rapist and murderer. He's going straight into the path of that murderer, right, I do think that was the intent, Yes, which just like, uh,

it's so. I I feel if I had watched this movie when I was younger, it would have sucked me up so bad. It's so it's like it scrambles your brain how much you see Michael Douglas like you see him do like basically nothing right, Like, at what point does he do something that is good at his job or good morally? Like you? I feel like usually with anti heroes there at least like good at their job,

like Don Draper was good at advertising. There's a scene where he pulls out his little like notebook where he's allegedly keeping and all it just has like a few different addresses written on it. There's no like, oh yeah, I'm like, is that all the Is that the extent of the police work you're doing. You're just writing down addresses that other people have told you like to go to.

And at this point he's been on the case for months, he's like all right, I think he's just checked out and he's using being detective is a way to find girl friends. Now, that is what it seems like, because he he has everything he does is either bad police work where he's like recklessly driving and like putting everyone in danger. He's having sexual relationships with both his counselor and his primary suspect and his prime suspect, which is like very noir. But if you're just like buddy, the

conflict of interest in everything he does is staggering. Well, I think that that's kind of like again just like a I guess we're sort of like talking about his character here as well, Like he's gullible to the point where it's kind of like attributing like a magical power to shared's done character, like it's giving her like I mean,

it is a combination. It's not just like it's her like powers of manipulation and like sexual prowess is like, I feel like the movie wants you to think it's making him bad at his job, and you're like, he might just be bad at his job. It sounds like he's bad at his job at the beginning. He can't stop murdering people and having sex with everyone he shouldn't like. And there's no mention of him solving a crime previously, like there's so you know, it sounds like maybe he

just always wasn't very good at it. But I feel like the movie wants you to think like she has led him, so, you know, far off a cliff with her her various college degrees and Bob, he has a master's degree. Okay, she's capable of anything, Caitlin, can you attest to that? Yes, I can confirm as someone who has a master's degree in screen writing from Boston University, which I don't like to mention, you can kill people,

can murder people and get away with it. To quote Gus when he's talking to Nick about Catherine, quote she got that magna kum laude pussy on her. That done fried up your brain? Sorry, that is that is another line I wrote down is one of the greatest things I've ever heard. Honorary Oscar Worthy Oscar for Best Single Line in a Screenplay for Esther hass I want someone to say, I've got magnacum laud a pussy. That's who I really, honestly do. That's the thing. What a compliment.

He meant it as an insult, but I'm like, yeah, go go for it. I'd be like, thank you. I also like how I read the screenplay to Basic in sing this morning. That was really it was really fun. And one thing I like is that Gus in the screenplay is supposed to be like twenty years older than Nick and Oliver Hopean was like, what if they were

the same age? Interesting, which is funny because in the beginning, when Gus doesn't know who Johnny Boss is, Nick is like, oh, he's before your time, and it's like, really, they seem to be about the same age. So that's um. But Jamie, to go back to what you were talking about. I feel like that's part of like one of the characteristics of the firm fatalel archetype, where she's like a witch basically who will put you in a trance and make you bad at your job and make you do things

that otherwise reasonable man wouldn't do. But because he's under the spell of this fem fatalel, he's not himself anymore. And to kind of complicate that, I mean, it's like, I think it's interesting the ways where this trope is like updated for the nineties or just I mean, I guess this run of Michael Douglas movies where it's like in the forties, you know, your FM faytales, they were you know, mostly cunning wives because that is, you know, majority what you could be as a middle class white

woman at that time. But when it leveled up, it's like, I feel like they think they're doing a good thing by like giving her a higher and higher level of education and achievement, but it just kind of becomes messy in a different way where I like it also is like this, I don't know what did either of you

think of it. I just was like, obviously, Michael Douglas doesn't believe in um mental health in this movie, Like, but I also thought it was interesting that like both of the women, that he's kind of like ping ponging between our authorities in mental health, where like shared Stone has a master's in psychology and Beth is a psychologist or like a police therapy. I don't want's her job title either way, Like they both work in that field. And he is clearly unwell and also doesn't believe it,

And I'm like, does the movie believe in psychology? Like it's so confusing. I couldn't tell. Does the movie believe in psychology? I couldn't tell either, But I mean, when you have a protagonist who has certain opinions and the movie asks you to go on this journey with this protagonist and like see the world through his eyes, I feel like, and that's not the case for every movie, but it's tricky when it's of Noir. I don't know.

But because he's like, you're a psychologist, well, your job is to manipulate people, and obviously your whole thing is to play games with people's heads, and that's what psychology is. It takes a very mid sectury of you of therapy. But I feel like it's also very obvious in text that he's unwell, and so I don't think that we're necessarily supposed to take him at his word in that moment. So it's confusing. Yeah, right, I feel like the script is maybe like he doesn't need therapy, just belongs to

the Fraternity of killers or something. But like, I mean, I feel like the noir has its roots and like the concept of confusing vulnerability with strength or I guess because being like, well, I'm traumatized in this way and I have to do it. I have to make use

of it somehow, I guess now. And I feel like that's where the tradition of the detective partly comes from, this idea that like the detective sort of has to stand between society and the French here in whatever way necessary, and he can't really like be a happy family man. He has to be a loner right right, which lines up with the anti heroo stuff as well. It's so it's I mean, I like that, it's great for hope. The movies are so challenging, like I and I like

that about them, but it's, um, it's tricky. I I felt like my and again I think I was maybe I had to too much brain when I was watching this because I was like, oh, well, obviously he's very unwell. So the movie is probably like he should probably believe

in psychology, he'd get something out of it. But that's almost definitely not what people would have you believe in two, I don't know the other thing for Hope and sometimes will go rogue and like doesn't have a high opinion of cops, and so I'm sort of like maybe, but I don't know. To whatever degree the movie wants you to think that Nick is unwell, every woman you meet the movie does want you to think is way more unwell and scary. And because they're like you said, Jamie,

they're all murderers. Like every woman in the movie who has more than a line of dialogue is either confirmed murderer or for some chunk of the movie, the audience is led to believe that she probably is a murderer. Well, and they're also all some well actually I don't I don't know about Roxy, but they're also all like the depraved bisexual to some extent, Right, all the women that

we're supposed to believe are murderers. I believe I think so or or you know, yes, except again, we don't know if Roxy is bisexual or she's we don't know, right right right, movie doesn't care. But between like Catherine who you could argue that the ending is ambiguous, but also pretty clear that yes, she was the killer all along. Beth, because of the ambiguity of the ending, is also then ambiguous as to whether or not she was a murderer of any kind. But at least with my read of

the movie, Catherine framed Beth. But even so, Beth is a character who seems to be withholding information and she still seems to be like devious in some way, and we can kind of we can get into that more in a bit. But then there's Roxy, who we learned killed her two young brothers when she was a teenager because she just felt an impulse to kill and she tried to kill Nick by running him over with a car, So she's a confirmed murderer. Roxy is troped literally to

death in Safe. And then there's this woman Hazel, Hazel Dobkins or something, who is a friend of Katherine's who also might be in a romantic relationship with Katherine. I thought that was so unclear to me, at least in a kissing relationship. Yeah, they kiss, and then Catherine calls her honey at some point, an implication for movie, right. And then Hazel, we learned, killed her husband and three small children by stabbing them with a knife, So that's

not good. I don't think that there's I don't think that there's very much like that's where the I mean, it's with the depraved bisexual trope, which we just talked about, which is a newer concept for us, but we talked about it on the A Simple Favor episode. That really doesn't work as much for me. But there's a bunch of um, there's a bunch of Indians about this. Yeah, should we get into it? Yeah, let's get I mean, there's there's so much to talk about there. I had there.

There's been a lot written about this over the years, but the context that you need that I didn't. I didn't know that it had escalated to this point. But the queer community in San Francisco, of which there's obviously like a huge historically queer community in San Francisco were

not happy when this movie was being made. When they were filming in San Francisco, the production called in the San Francisco Police Department riot police every day, which is almost certainly a gigantic overreaction, but the queer community was protesting significantly. They were holding signs that said honk if you love the forty niners and honk if you love men,

which is very funny. Um, but they basically did everything they could to stop the movie from being filmed cogently, like they used lasers and whistles to interfere with the filming of the movie. And one of the producers of the movie, Alan Marshall, allegedly selected individual protesters and demand they'd be arrested, which is um fucked up. And then the protesters did a citizen's arrest of the producer, which came to nothing because the cops don't give a ship.

But all that to say, like this was at no point was the issue with the depraved bisexual troops in this movie not an issue like before it came out, it was a very controversial thing. Verhoven I guess defended the protesters right to protest, but disagreed because it's his movie. Um So, how this kind of is played out is as time passes, as time famously does. There's a lot of people who are still you know, very for on the like this is extremely biphobic in a way that

is not reclaimable. And then there are queer writers and filmmakers who have found prose and reclaimable elements to it.

So yeah, so that's the context. So what's happening in the in the movie itself is that it's playing into stereotypes about bisexual people, such as that bisexual people are promiscuous, they are untrustworthy, they are immoral cheaters, the cheaters, And then the movie takes it a step further and says, any queer woman is an evil murderer who will just snap at the drop of a hat and murder without motive, just because they had the impulse to do it. That

was so wow. They're like, yeah, she just saw a razor and was like, let's do this. Baby. You're like, what, I don't want it to go to waste. I have to kill someone with a the sharp object that's near me. And yet like, and Jamie, you're a girl boss expert. This is why I'm asking you. Is there anything more a girl boss than being a sexually motivated female murderer of men? Exactly, Ladies, I've been saying this, um, women's

empowerment means getting away with murder. I wish I was my thora nosed T shirts and the male I don't have it yet, but and making men fear for their right to have sex. It is so like, it's so messy,

it's so many Like. I found a piece written by a queer filmmaker named Adam Morrison who's kind of like went to bat for this movie in and I thought, like, and also while acknowledging the clear biphobic issues, because also contextually, it's important to remember that Basic Instincts came out at a time where queer representation in general was kind of like an all time low, while the AIDS crisis was ongoing.

Um like the Silence of the Lambs had come out the previous year, which the queer community was kind of like rightfully on high alert about how they were being represented in film because it was egregiously bad. So yeah, he he writes a quote, if we're dying of a plague, can't get married, can't adopt, can get fired or evicted. If anyone finds out our sexual orientation, why on earth will be supportive film that paints us as nothing more than He then would like to funk hard and then

stab each other unquote. But then he counterpoints that twenty four years later by saying the following, which I thought was, I don't know, like I I don't I truly don't know where I fall here, but he says, uh, quote, when was the last time you saw a movie where a gay character was the wealthiest person in the room? Katherine Trammels worth a hundred million? When was the last time you saw a movie where a gay character was the smartest person in the room? One was last time

you saw a gay character be the most successful? Catherine's books are best sellers. When was the last time a gay character was all three of those things that once? Probably never? And then he sort of goes on to like draw this comparison of like, she has these godlike qualities, she's kind of like omnipotent, She's she can outwit literally anyone, and in the end, for her purposes, she wins. She gets away with it. Um, so she's not punished or killed off, and so, which I think is like an

interesting read of the movie. I don't know. Yeah, I mean that to me is just like, well, when representation invisibility is low and bad, all you can do is grasp at the crumbs. And that's what that feels like. Well, that's yeah, I mean, I'm not suggesting that any of that was intended in text, but I do understand that argument also, sure, Sure, and then to break down the various relationships even further, because I kept thinking we were

going to learn more about Catherine's relationship with Roxy. Yeah, but you never really do you know that they lived together? Question mark? I think so right? Or was that Cannon and Esther has trying to write them having a quiet night at home and Roxy being like is this chicken from Thursday night? You know? And like that's another thing. I kept thinking, like we never see them interact except to kiss in a couple of scenes, but we don't.

There's no dialogue between them, and so this is a movie where like if the movie passed the Bechtel test between these two characters, that would be great because we

would know anything about their relationship. But that's where it's like, it's so early nineties where I bet that the writer, who what's the writer's name again, Joe Ester, has really thought he was doing something by like making her well educated and like giving us a lot of information about her at the top, but we never yeah, like we never get information about and I don't think that it would have taken away from the non mystery of this movie, which is that she did it and we see it

in the first scene to flesh out that relationship a little bit more. I think it actually would have helped the point later where it's like she's saying, like, I, I, you know, really cared about Roxy. Like that's the first person we see her have a reaction to the depth of it all. And so if we saw that that, I don't think it would have hurt anything, right, because what that does. So when we see Catherine learned that Johnny Boss is killed, she doesn't cry. She barely bats

an eyelash. She's just like, yeah, I guess I'm sad because I liked fucking him. But when Roxy dies, she's sorry, right iconic. When Roxy dies, she's noticeably upset, she's crying, she's having what seems to be a genuine react. But because we don't know anything about relationship with Roxy, and because Catherine told thing is that she's very untrustworthy, we don't know if these feelings she's displaying our genuine because we don't have any information about Katherine and Roxy's relationship.

So it's which could be I mean, which I get why that would be a noir writing, but I just like I find it so ridiculous that you're supposed to spend a lot of it's just like it's not just like but you know how like the central quote unquote mystery of the movie Doubt when it came out was like do you think he did it? And you're like, it's so obvious that the that the protagonist did the crime? Why is that even the discussion like what about all

other ship going on? Right? So that's all confusing. And then Beth is also revealed to be bisexual or by curious. We learned that she had a sexual relationship with with Katherine in college, and she's also similarly depicted as being untrustworthy. And even though she might not have been the murderer that we're led to believe she possibly was for a while, she's still not forthcoming a lot about a lot of things.

She seems to be withholding a lot of information. You could make the argument that, like, why would she divulge her sexual orientation to her police colleagues. They're probably not going to accept her if they learned that she is queer, And she also seems to carry a lot of shame about it too, because that and I feel like that is almost like I guess maybe I talking this at

in real time. There's some kind of like gray area where it felt like when the more she acknowledged that she was ashamed of having any queer experience, the more her kind of redemption arc started to swing back, or it seemed like even but which is hard to say because Catherine lives and Beth dies, so she is. I mean, movies love to kill people named Beth. I'm just thinking

of little women. Um but but I so, I don't know if that's that completely scance, but it does like she distances herself from any queer experience she's had as much as possible, she tells. And I guess it's unclear because we only see her around Nick, who we can tell wants her to do that, but she it does seem like she's genuine when she tells him that whatever that weird apartment they're always having sex at is her

apartment next to the aerobic studio. Of course it's just like windows and you're like, yeah, sure, I'm sure a police the officer makes this much money. But yeah, like she she says that she's like embarrassed by it at some point, and then her literal dying words I feel like she might as well be saying I was right, and then she dies, Like that was what I was getting from, because her dying words are looking Michael Douglas

in the eye and saying I love you. Here's let me tell you my theory, because I've watched this movie maybe ten times in the past five years, and I I think that Catherine was obsessed with Beth and was playing the long game to like manipulate her ex boyfriend into killing her. And what that means is that Nick is sort of meaninglessly caught up in the crossfire of Catherine's obsession with Beth, and she's just going to like keep him alive a little while longer because he amuses

her someone or something like that interesting. And now I mean he's and he's killed Beth now, so it's like, yeah, so why bother? I mean, she's got to do something with her time. There's that's interesting. Like I I didn't know what to make of that. I'm glad that you have a theory about it, because I didn't know what to make of at like, who's single white female? Who? Like? Because even in that is an implication that like, in order for two women to be interested in each other.

They have to also be like stealing each other's identity, which is just so right, yes, of course, Like it's like, oh, you can't just be attracted to someone, you have to also want to wear their skin and like have their social Security number, which apparently was a very like potent idea. Ino.

There's two movies where that's a major plot point. But even even when um Nick kills Beth, he like the last thing he says to her is inherently tied to his insecurities about her having had a queer experience, where he's like, I know about your husband, you still like girls, Beth, And then he kills her, like, and then she says I was straight, And then the movie is over. He's advancing on her with a gun and he's saying it as if it's evidence again that like he's going to

have to shoot her, right, because maybe she's still likes girls. Right. It's like very overt, yeah, and so it's like it's only tragic that she dies because maybe she was straight. Like, it's just it's confused because she loved this horrible rapist

who represents the shriveled ass of compulsory heterosexuality. Yeah, I mean it's like that is, well, let's did anyone have anyone else anything else to say about the depraved bisexual trope before we move into the next horror show that come right, I'll just add that and let me know

if you think this has any merit. But I feel like this movie also villainizes ethical nonmonogamy in a in a way that like stereotypes about polyamory are on display and demonized in this movie because it seems to be that, for example, Catherine and Roxy's relationship is ethically non monogamous because they are together, but Roxy knows about the various other people that Catherine is involved with, so they are

in this ethically non monogamous relationship. But because they both end up being murderers, that's just another way in which polyamory is demonized. Right. It's the only relationship that I can exist between two murderers. Right. So I just wanted to point that out because I that's something I'd be interested in keeping my eye on more, because I feel like it's equating ethical non monogamy with with sexual deviant,

non ethical promiscuity. Yeah, exactly right, Yeah, that's that is something that and it's like I feel like, I mean, I guess I don't know when that term came into the zeite guys, but I would guess it was not right. Yeah,

so I guess. I mean the last thing with Roxy, we mentioned this, but like she's very much subject to the barrier gaze trope where, yeah, we don't know exactly like how she identified before they attribute a fit of murderous rage and they kill her, but you know, there it is, which also doesn't make sense because like, if she wasn't the murderer who killed like Johnny bos, why is she? So I love the name Johnny. There are some good fake nuts in this movie. Joe Astrohouse is

a good bad screenwriter. Yeah, but according to Catherine, Roxy liked to watch Katherine have sex with men, right, And it didn't seem as though Roxy was harboring jealousy until Nick comes along, and then, for reasons that go unexplored, Roxy's like, well, I'm jealous of Nick and I have to kill him by running him over with a car, But did you get the feeling? And then we, I know, we've got to move on, but like, but did you get the feeling? In bathroom confrontation between Roxy and Nick.

It sort of sounded like maybe she didn't like watching because she's she's just like I watched because like Catherine tells me too. So it sort of sounded like maybe Roxy is getting kind of manipulated by Catherine as well. That's fair. I don't know. That was like a fleeting moment that goes completely unexamined by the movie, So it's kind of a wash. But I sort of was like

I felt for Roxy in that moment. If I was like reading it correctly, I was like, Oh, that sucks, Like maybe she doesn't like even which would complicate things even more. But I wasn't. I wasn't sure. God boggles the mind. Okay, there's still let's let's get the other difficult conversation out of the of the way here and talk about trigger warning again, talk about the way that sexual assault is portrayed in this movie. Again. I don't know if I'm bring too much to it, but I

was very conflicted about it. Same. So basically what happens is there's a scene in which Nick goes home with Beth. They start to kiss. It seems to be consensual at first, he gets more and more aggressive. She is saying no, repeatedly, he does not stop and proceeds to rape her, which we see on screen for several seconds, which apparently is in the director's cut but not the theatrical cut, which

makes sense, And I'm glad. I'm kind of glad. I I I don't know because if I saw this movie, in which I couldn't have, but if I did, like I know that, like the basic idea of being raped by someone you know and had already been intimate with was not like a common thing to be portrayed in movies. And I feel like even having that because we've talked about this on the show a bit jillion times where it's like there's many many movies where the concept of rape and a rapist is like a stranger lurking in

the corner. It's like you don't know who it is. It's deeply traumatic, and then they're often too the night and it's all very you know, night's dockery. Not to say that that doesn't happen, but it is overwhelmingly somebody that you already know and very possibly somebody you've already been intimate with, And so I thought that that was I mean, it's a very very upsetting scene, and it feels so obviously like textbook rape. She says no, over

and over and over. And then my read of this scene was that she had to protect her like she wasn't really able to fight back for her own safety. But then the way that that plays out throughout the rest of the movie, I thought, like undercut very like common thing that happens to mostly women. So in in the aftermath, the immediate aftermath of that scene, Lucy Nick and Beth talking, she asks about Catherine. She mentions that

she knew Catherine in college. Then she refers to the encounter they just had, saying, you've never been like that before. Why and and he says, you know you're the shrink you tell me, and she says, you weren't making love. It's kind of open to interpretation what she means, Like, is she calling him out for forcing himself on her and raping her? Or is the movie just not aware of what rape is like? It's to me, it's hard,

it's hard to tell Sarah, what's what's your take? I think that she's calling him out in the mildest possible way, as if he's like put his feet up on her coffee table. So you know, it's it's I mean, you can interpret that as her saying like that was rough.

I didn't like it. That was too rough for me, and that being all the understanding the filmmakers had of this, and I would totally buy that and like and then maybe they do have more knowledge than that, but it's not on display, right, Yeah, and then you know, she continues trying to mother him for the rest of the movie, and it's never discussed. I also think it's fascinating that this movie is taking so many cues from Vertigo, that she's totally in the Barbara Bell Getties role and there's

the same glasses. It's really Yeah, this movie didn't Dare have two blonds. Yeah, she's very much Katherine is so stylized the way that and I haven't seen that movie in a long time, but yeah, there's there's a lot of visual symmetry. Yeah, there's a movie that earned its overbearing score, right, a score that's really turning your head to what you're supposed to be thinking. I had a I had a So I was very mixed up on this subject, and so I wanted to know more about

what the filmmakers. I was like, I assumed that they've been asked about this. I didn't get. I mean, I can't speak to the writer's intent, which I have like a quick thing on him. And but just because like he's just a weird guy. But Verhoeven specifically has whatever themes and things that he returns to in there's movies all the time, one of which is women being brutalized and sexually assaulted. So there was one press cycle and again I'm like, I don't know what to feel about

any of this. There's a press cycle from a movie he did inten called l which I have not seen. I guess it's in French, where he was asked kind of repeatedly about why this comes up in his movies so frequently, and like what is it about this that keeps coming up for him? And so this is from an interview in Slate from where he's basically just asked, like, wire women raped and brutalized in your movie so much?

He says yeah, because of course, let's say, especially with the element of rape, if you look at the statistics, they say someone is raped about eighteen hundred or nineteen hundred times a day in the United States, So that means a rape a minute. If you express that violence, then you can only express it in what it is. If you aren't honest about that, then I think that's very dangerous because then it becomes banal. It makes it smaller than it is. It's really something where people are

traumatized for the rest of their lives. Even the word sexual assault is already making it less than it is. I think the word rape expresses exactly what it is. If you hear rape, you know you're talking about brutal violence against women also men, of course, But if you use sexual assault, that makes it softer. And so there is in general a feeling that I get in the United States that it's very dangerous or very not done to use the word rape, which is replaced by sexual assault,

which I think I did, um five minutes ago. Um. But I'll have to say, I see what he's saying, but I like it's a matter of execution and making sure that that is clearly telegraphed in the plot, which I think this movie fails at. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I think that Show Girls actually does a much better job of doing what he's saying here. In jest. I still I still haven't seen show girls. It's been a request for a million years. Yeah, we got it. We'll get

to it. But it's tricky because I fundamentally agree with what he's saying. I just don't think that the execution is there in this movie. It's just hard to know what the purpose of the scene is. It even has one. I don't think it does, like I I know, like what function. My My best guess is that because this scene takes place right after Nick has gone to see Katherine in her home and she was being again very

fem fatally. She was being very sultry and seductive, and I think the movie is suggesting that he's starting to fall under her spell and he's getting really horny, and he goes and he takes out that horny nows on Beth because she's right there, and then it's doing the thing where it's conflating her, who's like, as far as we know, having lots of sexual adventures with people consensually. And he's like, I'm emulating you, Catherine, I'm raping my

ex girlfriend. And it's like what, no, right, it's yeah, And it's like there there is this element yeah, of like all of Nick's bad behavior is like the subtext of it is like, and it's somehow Catherine's fault that he's doing all of this because she's infuriating him. She's

frustrating him, she's like fucking with his head. She's making him drink again, she's making him smoke again, like right, Like it's it's somehow all of his behavior that we know, that's the thing that blows my minys like that we know predates his knowing her by a lot, Like so, but now he has the perfect person to blame everything on. Yeah, exactly. I also love how she's like superpowered for a woman.

Like they have a part where Nick is listing all of her assets basically, and he's like, she fox rock stars and boxers, she has a hundred million dollars, she writes books, and she has a degree and messing with people's heads. And it's like, yeah, it seems like he finally found a worthy adversary, a woman who's got enough expansion packs to scare you. That's the Michael Douglas plot point.

I guess, like it's so. And then there's other elements of Beth where it's like I just think that Beth is such a like poorly developed character because really like everything about her hinges on us, assuming that she still loves Nick no matter how awful he is in avoid also like we don't get any insight into what from her past might make her acted to someone so deeply talkic, like what there's no attempt because it's like, you see, she's she's nagged for her profession in her first moments

on screen, and then she agrees with him where he's like, this is bullshit and you know it. She's like, yeah, it's bullshit, but have a seat. You're like, that is a funny way to start a therapy session, but we got to do it because you're being mandated to do this, not because you clearly need counseling. I hope her. I hope my therapist says that to me someday. I'm like,

this is bullshit. She's like, yeah, but I sure I sure hoodwinked you out of a lot of money, didn't I also, do you guys love the moment where we find out that Beth is supposed to have met, potentially met Johnny Boss at a Christmas party that her office made his therapist through and it's like, of course, we're living in a world where therapists invite their patients to their Christmas parties. There's no there's no ethical connection between

people bowl in in this movie. I also, I mean that is always an element of like any Norrish movie that I have fun with, where it's just like, even when it's not necessary, everyone needs to have known each other and met each other at some point, and sometimes it's just like a weird stretch like that's not even necessary, but just to establish as much suspicion as possible. It's like maybe she a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend in a Christmas party from could

be you know, like it's just wild. It is so wild. Yeah. Bottom line is the way I mean everything in this movie is executed is at best mind boggling, at worst

extremely harmful. Because again with the rape scene, I think you can make the argument that the movie treats this as a consensual but you know, maybe more rough than best is used to sex scene when in fact is rape because she is repeatedly saying and he ignores her, and then and then like you're saying, Sarah, she continues to look after him and do anything that will support him. For the remainder of the movie, and then he kills

her for having sex with a woman once twenty years ago. Yeah, that that is I guess the legally prescribed penalty for that, but you so rarely see it carried out. It is brutal. Like it's just brutal. Um. We must also talk about the scene. The scene. The scene scene in which Sharon Stone's volva is exposed, because Sharon Stone has spoken about how she was misled by the director who told her that it would not be visible on camera. There's an article in Vanity Fair by Sharon Stone. It's an excerpt

from her memoir The Beauty of Living Twice. The article is called you Can't Shame Me Sharon Stone on how Basic Instinct nearly broke her before making her a star. So she talks about this, and I'll just quote this article. She says, quote after we shot Basic Instinct, I got called in to see it, not on my own with the director, as one would anticipate, but with a room full of agents and lawyers, most of whom had nothing

to do with the project. That was how I saw my vagina shop for the first time, long after I've been told we can't see anything. I just need you to remove your panties, as the white is reflecting the light, so we know you have panties on. Yes, there have been many points of view on this topic, but since I'm the one with the vagina in question, let me say the other points of you are bullshit, Sharon. She says, now here's the issue. It didn't now here's the issue.

It didn't matter anymore. It was me and my parts up there. I had to decisions to make. I went to the projection booth, slapped Paul across the face, left, went to my car and called my lawyer, Marty Singer. Marty told me they could not release the film as it was, that I could get an injunction first. At that time, this would give the film an X rating. And Marty said, per the Screen Actors Guild, my union, it wasn't legal to shoot up my dress in this fashion.

Who I thought? Then Sharon goes on to say that she gave it more consideration and tried to be objective about it. And then I'm quoting again. After the screening, I let Paul know of the options Marty had laid out for me. Of course, he vehemently denied that I had any choices at all, I was just an actress, just a woman. What choices could I have? But I did have choices, So I thought and thought, and I

chose to allow this scene in the film. Why because it was correct for the film and for the character, and because after all, I did it unquote. So that's and and I mean, Sharon Rocks, I like that is horrifying. Verhoven responded in denial that this had happened. But it's like, I very much believe Sharon, not just because I believe Sharon, but also because she was already so disempowered in this

creative process and that was already so well established. Was like that she was not being paid well, like she was not being treated like an equal collaborator on the scale that you know certainly Michael Douglas was, or that a lot of people involved in this movie was were

So that totally scams for me. That it's like she would be mistreated and her desire to not have to flash her vagina on screen and also be like duped into doing it would be something that they would try to get away with because they already got away with so much. And I think that there's that's that kind of assumption from especially like in acting, but in a lot of industries where you're like quote unquote pay your dues by being abused by someone who has more power

than you. Because in that same section, Sharon talks about how she felt like a lot a lot of the odds were against her. She was not she was like the twelve choice for this role. Michael Douglas didn't want to work with her, Like there were all of these things stacked against her, and then to be manipulated into like,

it's just it's so fucking bleak. I'm glad that she like got the last word on it, because yeah, it just it sucks that she just felt so disempowered to the point where she's like, well, what choice do I have but to just let this be in the movie, because yeah, she She also describes in this article various Hollywood horror stories producers and directors condescending to her, harassing her. Her manager at the time told her that she wouldn't get hired for a part like Basic Instinct because she

was not sexy or quote fukable. Um, she was she always like. She also talks about how she was considered to be difficult because she would speak out against being mistreated and that she would like refuse to have sex with her co star of a movie after a producer suggested they have sex because it would give them better on screen chemistry, and she said, no, I'm not going to do that, and then she was labeled difficult by people and all this kind of stuff. Um, but yeah,

I I completely believe Sharon. And there are just all these other examples of movies where the director misleads the actors, often women, to get a particular shot or to get a reaction that seems more genuine. There there I remember Kubrick and Shelley Duval. I feel like it's the most famous. There was also, um a scene from them that movie Last Tango in Paris. A story broke about that a few years ago that really I forget specifically what it is and I'd have to go back and read it.

But a woman was assaulted as the camera was rolling and was not told what was going to be happening in the middle of the scene so that the director

could get like a genuine reaction out of her. It was something I might have some details a little bit, you know, I'd have to double check on some details, but it was something along those lines, and so there's there's various examples of actors and again especially women being mistreated as cameras are rolling, being assaulted as cameras are rolling, all this stuff happening without their knowledge or consent, just so this aw tour can like see his vision come

to life or whatever, you know, some bullshit excuse which is like not just abusive, it's like Sharon Stone is right there, like she collaborate with her. You've got fucking Sharon White. I hate it. It's awful. So justice for Sharon. I'm very, very excited to read Sharon's book too. One of the last things I have here in my notes that again I feel like I'm only scratching the surface of But um, you'll never believe it. But this is another movie with mostly white people in the cast, which

is predictable. But like, also, this is San Francisco in the nineties, This is not like this is a very diverse area. Yes, for fox sake, the few people of color in the movie are minor characters with very few lines of dialogue, no real narrative impact. They're relegated to

the sidelines, and all the major players are white people. Yeah, I feel like, ultimately, like this movie has got a very weird legacy where there's plenty to talk about inside of it, but mostly it's the kind of movie where people mostly take away uh single shot versus at any sort of like it doesn't seem like this movie, even though there's like all of this like very era specific

history involved. People mostly just remember a scene where Sharon Stone was being coerced into doing something she didn't want to do and it was hailed as the sexiest thing ever committed to film. There's also a there's a good Vanity Fair piece about sort of how that shot and like the scene had a an impact on um porn for decades after that, and like the ripple effect of that scene alone is significant. I think the ripple effect of like the unexamined biphobia in this movie. Uh, this

is a very influential movie. Like the stuff that they got wrong here did carry on for for some time. So yeah, it's a tricky one. Do you guys want to know all the actresses that turned down the role of Catherine? Do I? Ever? Yeah? I I also have this list. So I'm gonna put forward two guesses, And by guesses, I mean I think I kind of remember

this list. Okay, wait, let me guess a few. Jodie Foster, Michelle Phiffer, Kelly McGillis, Michelle Phiffers, one, Meg Ryan, Meg Ryan one, Wow, Killia Roberts, Yes, whoa Okay, Kim Basinger was Michael Douglas's pick. She said no, Gretta Scotchy who that. I'm not sure who that is. That was like the one day Miles my British. I think Gina Davis said no fucking way. Kathleen Turner said no way, Kelly Lynch,

I don't know who that is. Ellen Barkin said no, maryel Hemingway said no. And I guess Demi Moore was considered, but I don't know if she was ever asked. And as you alluded to, Jamie, Michael Douglas was really reluctant to work with Sharon Stone because she didn't have any star power at the time. This was before where she

this movie made her a star. And also she was like, this is my star power, bitch, right, So Michael Douglas didn't want to work with her because she wasn't in a list celebrity at that point, and he was like, well, I'm an A list or, and if this movie is received poorly, I need to have another A list or to take the fall so that all the blame doesn't get on me. Like I'm not taking the only l on this movie that might suck, which I get, but it's like, come on, Sharon, Sharon, Sharon, get a grip.

So yeah, I think that's really about all I had written down. Lease, does anyone have any other thoughts about the film? I mean, I'm gonna go on this movie forever, but I'm going to say no. I guess I will say that ultimately, I am pro Sharon Stone, and I'm happy that this movie created a launch add for her to do more of what she wanted to in the world. And I think it belongs to a museum. I mean,

it has that going for it. It really expresses like a lot of the fear around gender roles in the early nineties and sort of the way that heteronormativity was responding to the lightest prodding. Yeah, I'm happy that we're all equally speachless about it. Yeah, I'm ultimately, like, I don't know a lot of bad stuff going on. I Yeah, I mean, I feel like the legacy of this movie is kind of like net in terms of like the tropes that like really really continued or popularized. It's got

kind of a net negative effect. But how much of that isn't It's just all very messy. We've spent two hours talking about it and I still have no fucking clue how I feel. Um. But does it pass the fact? I don't think so. The two women do interact when Roxy and Katherine kiss each other a couple of times, and it's implied they were having a conversation that Michael Douglas walks into, but we don't actually hear any of their dialogue, and then Roxy walks away, so we never

see them actually speak on screen. And I think those are the only two women who interact in the whole movie. There's Hazel Dopkins and Katherine, but I don't see them talking to each other either. No, there's a lot of scenes where there's a kiss and no dialogue, or a boob squish and no dialogue, or I think there might be one part where Katherine says something to uh, wait, what's her name, Hazel, and she calls her honey. She says, honey, I'll be right with you, or something, but then Hazel

doesn't respond, you know, things like that. So there afore women in this movie, and they're all convicted or potential murderers. I mean I do honestly, I like that. I think that's absolutely ridiculous. And yes, this movie is a net negative. And yet the fact that all of the female characters in this movie who have any kind of impact are actual or probable murderers is kind of amazing. You don't kept that a lot. I do it Like it's like the camp element is hard to deny with this movie.

It's like it's hard to there. I wanted to give a quick shout out to the women who plays Hazel, who's an oscar winning actress, Dorothy Malone. Hello Dorothy. Yeah, this basic Instinct was her last on screen appearance before she died. But she she before she retired, Sorry because she she just died a couple of years ago. But

she's in the big sleep. She won an oscar in ninety six for a movie called Written on the Wind, which I've never heard of, but she she won an oscar the Hudson Fantastic and then she was a big success on TV. She was on Peyton Place in the sixties. So it turns out she was a terrifically successful actor and this was her last movie, So shout out Dorothy Malone. Sorry you didn't get I don't think a single line

of dialogue. Really. I think she called him a shooter once, so yeah, she's like, oh, you're the shooter, aren't you. And then but sorry, you didn't get a whole scene. Like imagine being an Oscar winning actress and they're like, um, you're essentially a glorified extra. Yeah, so have fun with that and uh, you know, make your own movie. I guess there, which which brings us to our rating system, the nipple scale zero to five nipples, based on how

the movie fares looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens. Well, even though there are things that are arguably reclaimable about specifically, I would say Sharon Stone's character, I'm just not in a place where I feel fully comfortable doing that, although isolating a few lines of her monologues where she's like, I like fucking, I like men who give me pleasure. I like fingers and hands. I want to just like tweet that out is like red classic sex fingers in hand.

I want her to get together with Wayne Knight. I like it when she tells the cops she says something like I don't feel like talking anymore, so unless you're going to arrest me, you can get the funk out of here, and they're like, I can't argue with that, okay, so we got to get the funk out of here. I love it when she's like, what are you gonna do? Was smoking and they're like, well, dog got it. She's because stopped us right in our tracks. We don't know

what to say to that. Another another thing that is spoofed in Hotshots part do so I gotta And I also like the moment, like there's just certain moments where it's like she's being villainized, but also her reaction to anything that is like a suggestion of typical heterosexual domesticity results in her getting angry or violent, which I kind

of do. Like that scene at the end where he's like, I don't know, we're gonna fucking pop out a couple of kids and get married, and her response is to like clutch an ice pick, like that's kind of cool, Like there he goes, we can fuck like minx, have a few rug rats and live happily ever after. And then she's like, she's like, I hate rug Rats and then she's like clearly fondling her ice pick, ready to

like stab him. And then he's like, forget the rug Rats, we can just funck like Minx and live happily ever after. And then she takes her hands off the ice pick because apparently she was going to kill him if he wanted to have children with her, which is kind of who wants kids? But that like that's a cool moment. I don't know how boy, he would not be a

good dad. I bet she's going to kill him like four days later, right, because do you feel like he's on condition of not making her board right his day? His days are extremely numbered. I feel like it's very clear. But inter Caitlin was he'sier, what is your rating for? Okay?

So even though there are things, they're very isolated things I like about the character of Catherine Trammel and Sharon Stone's performance, I would say, overall, like you said, Sarah, this is a net negative movie between the villainizing of a woman's sexuality being open and liberated between the depraved bisexual trope. Because like gosh By, Visibility was extremely low

and still is. But in the early nineties it was basically absent, and if it was there, it was being villainized in very harmful ways, much like what Basic Instinct does. So there's all these harmful things that the movie does. Um. And it is too long. Um. But the score is memorable and the plot is convoluted and um. According to this movie, all women are murderers and they will have no motive. They will just decide to murder, I mean,

for no reason. Okay, UM, So I'm going to give the movie with all that in mind, I'll give it one nipple, and I'll give it to Sharon Stones nipple which we see many times. And it's a great one too. There's two. There's two of them. There's two of them. Uh, I guess I'll match you there. I feel like ice. I see why some of the camp here, isolated moments are reclaimed. And I also had a lot of fun and really appreciated that. Also, you know, there's I don't

think I have anything new to new to add. I think that I'm gonna meet you at one and I'm going to give my nipple to um Hazel because she should have had more lines or lines true, Sarah, I am also going to give it one nipple, and I'm going to give it to Sharon Stone, so now she has three nipples. And yeah, because I think she's just great.

And at this point, I've seen this movie enough times that I can guess kind of enjoy the idea of this like freewheeling murderer who likes to go around announcing herself as a murderer to men who just continually are like, what, no, I don't, I don't. I'll be fine. I'm different. And how that just is what she does for a hobby apparent. I think that's interesting. I love that for her. I know, I'm like, you have a hundred ten million dollars, We've

got to find another place for you to put this energy. Girl, Like there's she could be doing so much like a magazine. I was kind of hoping I wasn't able to find one, but you know how like sometimes when there's like a famous writer in a like oh, Gone Girl is a good example, the fake book and Gone Girl was a real book that was sold like amazing amy, And I was hoping that Catherine's books, like the fake novelizations of the Katherine Trammel books were somewhere, but I wasn't able

to find them. That would have been amazing. It's not too late to hire one of us two ghost right then? Well, yeah, I know my next project. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining us, Thank you so much, Thank you for exploring this. This is strange, beast, this is really fun. Thank you for bringing us this movie. I'm glad that we talked about it. And you know, hopefully if you are a listener watching this movie, you're just as confused as we are. Uh, Sarah, Where can people check out

your stuff? Follow you on social media? Plug away, you can hear me and You're wrong about and you can also hear me on You Are Good and other podcasts from time to time. And I'm trying to not use social media so much, so I find me there if you must, but I shan't encourage you. Perfect. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram, which you know what, I'd encourage it, but you don't have to do whatever

you want. Sometimes we get stressed out and we don't check it, so I don't get mad if we don't reply right away, right, But yeah, you can follow us there at Bechtel cast. You can also subscribe to our We would definitely encourage this. Subscribing to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash backtel Cast. It gets you too bonus episodes every month plus access to the whole back catalog of bonuses, and it is five dollars per month.

And you can also get merch at t public dot com slash the PacTel Cast if that's something that you are in the mood to do. And with that, I want to say, wait, what is that line again? I the my favorite line in the movie that Magnicum Laude pussy, Yes, Friday up your brain. Let's um, let's take our Magnicum Laude Pussy's out of Bye bye bye