All About Eve with Sara June

was gonna say ride. I know it didn't night, No night. You thought I was gonna say night. Oh, it is a bumpy night because she's she's just saying like I'm going to get so fucked up and ruin everyone's night. And she's right. I've never heard someone promise that in advance and quite the same like it's it's oh, it's gorgeous, iconic. She's an icon. So welcome to the beck Dodcast. This is our movie podcast, where we in a lies the representation of women in movies, using the Bechtel test as

a jumping off point. And that, of course, is a media metric created by cartoonist Ellison Bechtel sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, and it requires that two female identifying characters who have names they have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man. For instance, ruining each other's lives is a topic that passes handily. I'm so excited to be covering

this movie today. We do not very frequently cover movies of this era, but it is a pretty common request as far as older movies go. It's one of my faves. I'm we're covering All About Eve today. We are, and we have a special guest where again we're still in the quarantine, but we're all videoing in from different locations. I don't remember life before this anymore. Who does um? But we're very excited for our guest today. She is an amazing comedian and director. It's Sara June. Hello, Wow,

thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's our pleasure. It is tough to be on zoom, but thank you so much for continuing to do this podcast. Oh you know, what else are we going to do right now? What is your history in relationship with the movie All About Eve? I probably first watched All About Eve when I was in high school and I was in this phase where I found out you could get DVDs from the library, um,

and my library had a great, great DVD selection. So I watched a lot of movies that were really good that I did not understand because I was a child. And then I watched some movies that were really good that I did understand even though I was a child. And one of those movies it was all about Eve. Baby, this is like a good movie to first see when you're a teenager. I feel like it hits like and it probably I would guess like hits different at different

stages of life too. So it also informed like everything I thought I knew about the theater. I was like, the theater is crazy, sexy, dangerous, British, right, and they hate television. I like, I I think that, like, I mean, you're always supposed to think that Eve is like pure evil.

But my first viewing of this, I do remember being like, even he's got a good head on her shoulders, she's I mean, it's like I I always love Margo to death forever, but I didn't have as much um empathy for her the first time as I do ten years on. I am now closer to Margot's age than Eve's age, so I'm like Eve, that slimy little rat. I'm Margot

is single white female. There it's it's yeah, yeah. This movie came out both before Single White Female and before Mean Girls, So if you need modern references, those are them. It and the Favorite. I think the Favorite is like I have I have some One of the writers of The Favorite was like, yeah, this is like a lot. There's a lot of All about even then. I remember I read that interview where they were like, it's like if all about Eve was um, and then there was.

It was also based on like a sorry I'm getting off topic, but it was also based on an actual historical event, which was the Queen making this random made attendant of hers her the purser, just like out of nowhere. Pretty cool, pretty cool stuff. You love to hear it, love to hear it, all right. So yeah, that's my history with All About Nice Jamie, what's your history. I love this movie a lot. I think I saw it. I think I probably This probably is a movie I

saw like my freshman year in college. This seems like around the correct time to have seen this movie. Um, that's a guest. But I've seen this movie many times now. It's weird. I haven't like thought about it from a I mean it's weird. It's like, you can't think about this movie from a feminist standpoint, which is kind of great because it's like mostly women interacting with each other, so you cannot. But this was my first time watching it with like a Bechtel whatever helmet. Is it a

helmet that we wear? Um, it's with that I mean in the in the quarantine, Yes, but yeah, it's one of It's one of my favorite, um, I think, probably one of my favorite movies ever, but definitely one of my favorite older movies. I love. I was like when I was a kid, I was like a TCM head and Judy Garland and Bettie Davis were like my gals. I love Betty Davis and her performance and this is fucking ink. I mean, everyone's performance in this is great.

I love this movie. It's so weird because they were like, Okay, the fact that you know someone is so powerful that they can just be cruel and awful to everyone is not a good thing. But I do like it when it's Bettie Davis doing it. When Betty Davis is cruel and terrible to everyone she's ever met. I love it. I think it's cool. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie?

I too saw it, probably run freshman year when I was in you know, I was a starry eyed film student, much like Eve Harrington, you know, trying to just consume as much cinema as I could. And what that meant for me was I would watch like three DVDs that I borrowed from the library a day and absorb none of literally okay, okay, you're not even literally updated. Eve, like two thousands are Eve would be watching DVDs. She would be like, I'm going to figure this out, right, right, right.

So this is one of those movies that I had on in the background and didn't apparently retain anything about it, which is a shame because it's a really good movie and there's lots to talk about it. I am very excited to talk about it. The dialogue in this movie is so smart and sharp and tight and clever and so well written. It's incredible. Manko It's yeah, he got it's it's I mean, there's there's Well, we'll talk about the short comings of the story at lark, but like

the fucking script is it's so good. It's like every character is so distinct, even like smaller characters that normally I feel like movies of any era would just kind of make a throw away. Like even Marilyn Monrose character has like a small arc and she says funny stuff and like it's just so good. I love it. Yeah, let's dive into the recap. The movie starts with a young woman named Eve Harrington. That's and Baxter. She is a big fan of the theata and an even bigger

fan of an actress named Margot Channing. And that is our queen Betty Davis, who is you know, a star of the stage. And one night Karen Richards that's a friend of Margot's. They are friends because her husband, her husband, um Lloyd Richards, is the playwright of the production that Margot is currently starring in. But this woman, Karen, sees

Eve outside of the theater and had noticed her. They're like waiting night after night, so she decides to invite her in and introduce her to Margot, right, which is like, okay, this is the first act of kindness from a woman to a woman in the movie, And she'll live to regret it. I love that's like she's like, oh, let me do something nice, and then the movie is like, the biggest mistake you ruin everyone's lives. Yeah, let this be a lesson. Women shouldn't be nice to each other,

never mix with the commoners. Right that too. It's a classes in trench coach shall enter, so they invite her in. They're all chatting and Eve tells them her story about how she came to love the theater, about how she had this husband who died in the war, and how she started following Margot's career, and Margot is very smitten by all of this and by Eve, and she has Eve move into her house and start working for her as an assistant more or less, I will say, a

second assistant. She already has an assistant, right Bertie, Oh my god, Bertie is like the feminist icon of icon Bertie coon in right, because it isn't like Bertie like the main she's her main gal. And then Eve is, yeah, like she's doing it. Doesn't even like Eve is doing

more than she's asked. She's Eve is acting the way we're told as eighteen year old interns that you should ask like, they're like, invent tasks for yourself, make yourself seem useful even if you're not doing shit, And that's kind of what she's doing A million percent, yes, And this is kind of the start of her beginning to

cross some boundaries in her relationship it with Margot. And then after that we see Eve maybe kind of flirting with Margot's boyfriend, Bill Sampson, who Betty Davis was having an affair with on set and would marry and was married to for ten years. Excuse me, Yeah, they got they like dumped their spouses at the time for each other and he was her last husband. I know. They

have great chemistry too. It's like that that relationship is I mean stuff have isn't but but it's like, I mean, they got they got chemistry, you know what they do. He daddies her from the very first scene he does. Yeah, he dams her so hard and so immediately she's like, what do you do and he's like, let me tell you about the theater, kid like, and she just cowers. And that's after he has come into the room and called Margo like a trash heap or something like that.

He's like, you look like shit, I have a flight in four or five minutes. It's like peak nineteen fifties writing. It's like peak black and white movie where they're like, what are you doing woman? You look like garbage and she's like, oh, garbage, pooh pooh. And then and then she just does what he says. But but yeah, and then he like ignores Eve a couple different times. I mean, these are like as close you can as you can

get to being like, oh, that sucks for it. But like, I don't know, Eve is smart and honestly, when I saw that scene this time, I had never thought about this dynamic before. But the fact that he comes in immediately talks to Margo and only Margo, even though he's like, you look like should I have a flight? Let's go, and like sees the other girl, barely says hi to her and then fully only pays attention to Margo. I think is a smart guy who's in a relationship with

a narcissist. That's a guy who's like, if I say hi to this other woman in the room, she will have my head. Yeah, I mean there I wonder, I wonder. Yeah, Like their relationship is just like bizarre all around, but there's like watching that scene with Eve this I haven't seen this movie and maybe two years or so, but watching that scene, it's like, I feel like everyone has ben Eve in that situation to where just like someone more powerful than you walks into a room and it's like,

who is this. Okay, great, anyways the other most powerful person in the room. I'm going to be mean to you and then leave and you're like oh yeah, and I'm talking to you, but also kind of performing for everybody. Yeah yeah, well, and then Margot's doing that too, to the point where Bertie has to be like this is making me physically ill. I'm leading I have to go

into the bedroom. That's what I love because they're all doing this like you there, I know you that, And then she's just like, oh but brother, she's just doing like yeah, she's doing like a like old Timey Brooklyn like character actor bit in the middle of this Transatlantic accent scene, and you're just like, yeah, well, yeah, sure, this is what the world like, sparkling with sparkling wit. I'm like this Sparkling's amazing. And then Bertie is like want a load up bull crap and like she's right,

She's the best. Bertie is amazing. She is and she I wish that she was like written out after whatever at the beginning of act too, But what can you do? When I was researching the production of this movie, they said that they had to cut like fifty pages from the script. So there was some Birdie that hit the cutting room floor. And originally she was supposed to Um, she was going to be instead of that girl. Wasn't

like Phoebe. At the end, it's Birdie and she comes crown. Yeah. Um. So it's at this point in the story when Margot starts to get increasingly more and more annoyed with Eve because of all the boundaries she is crossing methodically. It's she's a master or manipulator. But we don't know that yet quite as as an audience. We're only starting to see hints of it. We start on the side of like everyone's calling Margot paranoid, and we're like, Margot is paranoid, right,

but the tide will turn. Um. So, one night, right before a homecoming slash birthday party um that is being thrown for Bill, Margot and Bill have this big fight about Eve because Margot is insecure about her age and she's worried that um Eve, who is considerably younger than Margot, will replace Margot. And then cut to the party, we get that the famous line the fest in your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night, and we're like, we're like, and then it is it. Yeah, she delivers

on the promise. Oh yes, she gets wasted. My girl gets shit fish ship face. And then she still gives the most articulate, pithy put downs of the entire Like what everyone wishes they sounded like when they're blackout drunk is how she's That's how everyone feels like they are talking when they're bega mean drunk, but they're actually like throwing up. Do not say this to me. I am

as wispy tinous. I'm like, I think I sound like this after five hundred white cloths, and I'm just like really cool but also like I don't care, but also leave me alone. I have to ask the DJ to

play the same song five times in a row. I love the like and and the way that and this is also like the costume designs in this movie are edith head, so they're fucking amazing, and the way that they like the old Hollywood wood way to indicate that a woman is drunk is just like slide her sleeve off her shoulder and tussle her hair, and you're like, oh, she's wasted, and like holding up holding up very full Martini glass perfectly and never spilling it while being like

knowing and like you know, slurring your retorts. She's a star. She's a star, right. And then Eve weasels her way into being Mark goes understudy, unbeknownst to Margot, And then there's this audition that happens with Marilyn Monroe's character, a young actress named Ms Caswell. Eve shows up instead and reads opposite her. In this audition, it turns out that Eve is an amazing actor who blows everybody away, including this theater critic named Addison DeWitt, which is another perfect

old timey theater critic name. Right. Never has there actually been a person with a name like this. It's great. Yeah, his names you get it, You get what he does, You get what he's like. His name is DeWitt, do you guys get it? Maco Wit is like Maco with is like a stark and style jerking himself off, and it's like, ah, there it is de wit so Eve being awesome at acting makes Margo very jealous, and she shows up at the theater after this audition and she

has this outburst. You know, Lloyd is like, you're a horrible actress. And then Bill literally compares, he like objectifies her to the point where he's like, you're a piano Look. Okay, wait, I will say this. He doesn't say you're a horrible actress. He says something almost worse, which is, you're too old to play the part that I wrote and that you've been playing for like at this point weeks months now, you know, just to say, like it's not that you're bad,

you're just not young enough. I think I hate Lloyd the most out of everyone in this movie because Lloyd is just he's so infuriating to me. I feel like he kind of gets off like like he's made to so egotistical. Yeah, like I feel like this. Okay, So like men in this movie are like bad, but it's more it's written more that they're clueless rather than they are making the rules. But like Lloyd could write apart for Margot, that's her age. He just won't do it.

He's acting like my hands are tied. I can only write about twenty year olds, and you're like, you have the power to not do that. I hate Lloyd so much. Yeah. Also like, if you know, if you are lucky enough to know what kind of an actor you're going to be working with, then you should write a part for that actor. You know, right, why would you not? Whatever? I hate Lloyd, Karen, Karen Defense Force. Karen can do better,

for sure. Yeah, so he sucks. And then Bill is talking to Margot and he's like, you know, you're being paranoid. I love you, but this is the last straw. I gotta say goodbye, and then he leaves her, which I think is healthy. I do think he's kind of like acting. I like Bill some of the time. A lot of the time he does, guess light her quite a bit, or at least he does calls her paranoid without um ever really truly listening to her and her feelings. So I think that Bill is like cut too much slack.

But but I do agree Sara that him getting out of their relationship when it becomes that volatile. I don't

really fault him for it, and neither does Margo. Yeah, it's like it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good boundary to have, you know, like they're not married, you know, and he's like, I I agree that he's like he calls her paranoid, which is like not okay, But at that point, like when somebody is like lying to you as much as Margot does and refusing to listen to you as much as you're refusing to listen to them,

it's like, all right, I'm out. I don't know, it's yeah, there's a Well, we'll talk about Bill because I have like mixed feelings towards him, and I feel like maybe I cut him too much slack because I really liked the actor and the fact that he and Betty Davis

got married. Oh well, we'll get there. Also, he like violently throws Margo down on a bed, which is obviously not okay, but like pretty typical for an old Hollywood film to see a man being violent towards women, Like we also see Addison slap Eve in the face, you know, which is very yikes. But anyway, um, so we're at the point where you know, Margot's boyfriend has left, her friends are upset with her, and then a short time later, when Margot is returning home from a weekend getaway with

Karen and Lloyd. Some car trouble causes her to miss her show that night, and it's implied that Karen drained the gas out of the tank of the car on purpose so that Margot would miss the show to help E. So, with Margot being gone, Eve, her understudy, steps in, performs the part and dazzles the crowd. And wouldn't you know it, a bunch of theater critics just happened to be at the show that night, and they're also all very impressed

with Eve, including Addison do Wit. Yes. So, now that Eve is making her way into the spotlight, she tries to seduce Bill Sampson, but he's like, wait a minute, I'm still in love with Margot, and then he goes back to Margot. Karen has also forgiven Margot and feels super guilty about what she did to make her miss

the performance. And then Addison DeWitt has written this review about how awesome Eve was in the play how awful Margot is, And in this review, Eve talks about how pathetic it is for older actresses to play parts for younger women and how you know older women are bitter and they don't want to support younger actresses. Then everyone's like, oh, I guess maybe Margot wasn't being paranoid right right, except Lloyd is still being a piece of ship because he's

he defends Eve. I hate Lloyd. What's just horny? I hate him? Lloyd is horny and I also hate him. So Lloyd is defending Eve and he's like, oh, well, Eve claims that Addison put those words in her mouth. And then he's like, and what if Eve is in my new play performing the lead role of Cora and then his wife. His wife Karen is like, listen, Eve is a rat scumbag and you will not cast her in your play. Yeah. Then that night, when Margot, Bill, Karen, and Lloyd are out drinking some wine at a like

rich people establishment, Eve is also there a club. The club in the club was it? What is it? Betty Davis is like, where the elite come to meet? You're like, yeah, good, sure, whatever, bit you are drunk again. Eve is also there and she sends over a note asking Karen to meet her in the ladies room, and she does very titanic make it count meet me by the clock, and then they

actually go and have a really cool party below deck. No, Um, what happens instead is that Eve and Karen chat and Eve starts out by apologizing, but then her tone shifts and then she starts blackmailing Karen because and Baxter is so good in that. Yeah. She when she puts her cards on the table every time, it's just like because she knows that Karen has something to do with Margot

missing the show that night. And it turns out all Eve once from Karen is for her to tell her husband, her husband, Lloyd, to cast Eve in his new play. And that apparently happens because we cut to Lloyd and Eve rehearsing for the play bill is directing it right, And then it seems like Eve is trying to get close to Lloyd and she's like, hey, Addison, did you know that Lloyd is going to leave Karen and that he and I are going to get married? And Addison's like, oh,

actually no, that's not going to happen. You're not going to marry him because you belong to me. I know about your real past and others. It's so over dramatic it shouldn't work, and yet it does right, Like it's it's so much. So then he he blackmails her because it turns out she's been lying about a bunch of stuff. And then we cut to her accepting this award for her acting, but like everyone hates her. Margot is there,

Karen is there. They're like this fucking asshole, and everyone else in the room is a very old man who is clapping heartily right, and they're just like, yeah, it's so good. And then Eve wins the award and and and Margot's mean to her one last time. Oh, and he gives a spee each where she thanks Karen and Lloyd and Margot and then they're just like a stony face.

I love it. And then Eve goes home and a young woman who is obsessed with her, much like Eve was obsessed with Margot at the beginning of the movie. This young woman is in her house has like snuck it broke into her house. And then she's like, oh my gosh, Eve Harrington, I love you so much. You're so awesome. And we're like, oh no, the cycle is going to repeat itself. And I have so many thoughts on the ending. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we will come right back to

discuss Can we start by talking about the ending? Is that too Is that too much? Let's do it? Okay. So this was the first time I had really given some critical thought to the ending of the movie, because I feel like greenplay wise, it's great because he brings you all the way back to one and the quote unquote villain of the movie is getting her come up, and and it's like I never really questioned it before. But my main criticism of this movie that I still

am gonna love forever and ever. But I think my main criticism of it is that like that ending heavily implies that, like the problem the whole time is eve and it's it's ambitious women. Ambitious women are the problem, and ambitious and women are like naturally inclined to be catty towards one another and to be vicious towards one another.

And it's not like there this movie does not really interrogate the system that they are put in, in the positions they're put in, and the fact that they are told they can't be useful after a certain age, and the fact that there's only so many stars that can exist that are women. So one does have to displace another just because of the way it's been set up. And so at the end, by having that other women come for Eve and you're like, oh, he's gonna get

what's coming to her. It's like, but you know, for for all the men of the story, I mean, I think this is probably this is realistic for its time, But for all the men of the story, things stay status quo um and will for forever. Yeah, there's never the implication that like Lloyd or Bill our rivals, right, they're friends, they're like BFFs. Yeah, they're like great collaborators and close friends. I mean, I guess the difference is

one is a writer and one is a director. But seriously, it's it's still not I mean, and this is one really great thing about the movie. We don't hear almost anything about those guys and their careers outside of this. Yeah, which is good because it's like who care, Like they're they're not the interesting. I didn't even think of that. Like, we know Bill goes to direct a movie, but we don't know if the movie is good or anything. Yeah, we don't know anything about that movie. Yeah, we don't

even know what it's about. It doesn't matter because Margot's not in it, so it doesn't matter because she's the center of the universe. It's very clear, I mean, and it's like I don't even really want to knock the writing too much for creating this reality, because it was very reflective of the time, and still now it's like it doesn't really matter how good the stuff they do is.

We don't actually know if Floyd is a good writer, but like, the world is always going to make enough space for them, so it doesn't even like they don't even have to be good. The only male character I want to know more about is Addison. I would watch a fucking franchise about Addison DeWitt, just like Frasier. Yes he really is. What if he was Frasier's No, he's not Fraser's dad, that's Martin. I would buy him as one of Frasier's cousins for sure. I can't believe I

just insulted Martin Crane like that. I'm so sorry, but yeah, come on, but yeah, this was the first time I ever thought of the ending as like, I mean, it is like it it's just kind of it's the desis statement of the movie of like this thing that's happening with these women as cyclical, which might be true, but

it doesn't examine really why that is. I mean, I want to describe the literal final shot, which is the young woman Phoebe, the young woman who we are meant to inter It is going to replace Eve wearing Eve's cape and holding her award and looking at herself in the mirror and like pretending that she's accepting the award, and then it's her cape and her crown, and um, Eve has this three way mirror so that you see all these endless rows of Phoebe's accepting the award and bowing.

It's a beautiful shot and you might as well just write in text on the screen such is Woman, because it's like, look at this endless literally endless, infinite cycle of not only identical but disposable. Yeah, am I reading too much into this? I think that that is what the intention is. Probably it's I love this movie. Okay, that's what I had to say. That's what I had to say about the ending. I just have never thought

of it from from that angle before. Yeah, it's it's pretty funny because like she the girl, Phoebe is like, hey, I'm president of the Eve Harrington fan club and Eve's like yeah, okay, She's at no point she like how did you get in here? But but it's it is cool that, I mean, Eve gets so defensive right away when that was her I mean a year ago. How much time passes in this movie, It's unclear, it's less.

I think some of the voiceover. The voiceover is like, wow, it was just last April or last October, like it's it implies that it's only been like I think, yeah, it's been like kind of a short amount of time. I mean, you got a handed to Eve. Um. Part of me wanted to interpret the ending as kind of like a cautionary tale of like this is what happens if you're a woman who exploits and tramples on other women.

But you're right, Jamie, like, it's not fair that ambitious women are shown as being like the villains because and there's so much to talk about, but there's this theme that only pops up every so often in the movie. But with Margot, you have this powerful woman who has a solid career. She is very successful, but every once in a while she'll be like, well here's the thing. Though,

a woman is not complete without a man. Yeah, there's a conversation towards the end when she and Bill have gotten engaged and she's like, I'm going to be a married woman and Lloyd's like, well, what does that have to do with anything? And Margot says, you know what it means, I've I'll finally have a life to live. I don't have to play parts I'm too old for just because I've got nothing to do with my nights.

And it's like, oh my gosh, that's so bleak, Like I know, it's like, is that is that what you were doing? Right? It's so and it's like they're My understanding is that that attitude was kind of reflective of Betty Davis's feelings. She never had a desire to leave performing, but it like she also historically in her life had like would try to fill areas of her life through marriages and stuff like that, and like there, I don't know, I read a whole whole thing that was just like

drawing comparisons from Betty Davis's life to Margot. There's a lot of one to one things. That part, Like that gave me a little bit of pause too. I don't know how to feel about it, because I do think that it ends up being maybe a little bit too far of like it's like a deeply heteronormative like, yeah, a woman is not a woman without him. I mean, you know, we're like we're basically we're quoting the script here where she goes, you're not a woman if you

don't have a husband. Essentially, Um, she says that you you can be a lot of things, but you're not a woman. So like, in one sense, she doesn't discount her accomplishments, but she doesn't see them as being compatible with her sex. And also and were you know, we assume her gender. You know, she's she's she's like, until you perform the heteronormativity of being a woman in a relationship with a man, you're not a woman. You're just like essentially a laborer, but like one without sex. You know,

she's she's masculine eyes but also de sexualized. Heavy. Yeah, no, I totally very heavy, and and the the way that I mean. And and it's also like she decides to she's she's like full on Oprah and steadman. She's like, I don't want to marry you, like I love you, I don't want to marry you, which is a kind of like radical idea up until like pretty recently, um,

and he couldn't handle it. And he ends up getting his way with that, And that's never really interrogated that much, and it's implied that her making that change of heart improves her life a lot. Is her kind of you know, conceding to his wishes. There is a little bit part of me where I feel like and I don't I don't want to give Manko it's more credit for thinking

than he's actually doing. But he's a really good right I don't know, but I've kind of viewed part of that of like, Margot only has so many options in her time, even though she's the most powerful, as powerful as a woman could be in this time, she only has so many alternatives to being and actress. And it doesn't even seem like she doesn't want to be an actress. She just doesn't want to put put up with all the bullshit that she's going to be subjected to as

she gets older. And so I there's a way I can see it. I still don't like the way that they go with it, but there's a way I can see it where she's like Okay, well what's my alternative this? Okay, then I'll throw myself into this and hopefully it will

end better for me, which is bleak. It's a really shitty choice that she has to make, but you understand why she makes the one she makes, right, because it's like, I mean, there's unfortunately there in there's no way that her acting career was going to get easier as she gets older. You mean yeah, yeah, like I mean Eve

or no Eve. And that was true for Betty Davis, like I mean right, Because so this movie is largely about a woman who is very insecure about aging, who worries that she will be replaced by a younger woman, both in her romantic life and her professional life. Then her fear are actualized when a younger woman shows up, exploits those insecurities and then like weasels her way in and tries to replace her, and then you know the

various consequences of that. So it's another movie that focuses on an antagonistic relationship between two women who are in competition with each other. I do think that this, especially for the time this came out in I think the movie does a fairly decent job of exploring like why women be in competition with each other because of the through line of like Margot's insecurity about aging. But I also agree Jamie, you know you suggested that the movie doesn't really go so far as to say, well, why

would a woman be insecure about aging? Well, because like men run society and men don't deem women getting older is something that's socially acceptable. She's like, why doesn't Lloyd write her apart? Like, why doesn't Lloyd write her apart? It would be why doesn't Lloyd just fucking write her apart? That would take Eve out of the equation entirely. They're like, oh, well, this is an insurmountable problem that Bettie Davis has to look twenty. Yeah, She's like, I have to say this though.

Upon this most recent reviewing, I was really really struck by how good Eve is at doing what she wants to do, because, like the opening scenes where they meet her, I mean, you know, like basically one of the first scenes where Karen meets her outside the theater takes you know, says hey, you know, I've seen you outside the theater every night, and she's like, yeah, you know, I watched

the play every night. And then I stand outside the dressing room so I can maybe see Margot go in and out, and it's so pathetic and it's fucking raining, and it's she's all wet, and Karen is like, oh my god. And then she gets to come inside and meet Margot, and Margot mainly doesn't pay attention to her for a while. And then when she finally and Eve doesn't say anything. She's invisible. She's just like a fly

on the wall. And then finally, when there's like a time where everybody's been introduced to Eve, she gives this big fucking monologue that we later find out is full of lies about her upbringing, and Bertie calls it out right away. Bertie's like, wow, what is that like character actor line she gives. It's like everything but the kitchens, the Bloodhounds, everything but the Bloodhounds. Snippet. Yeah, it was great.

But the thing that she does in these early scenes that I hadn't really noticed up until now how perfectly she does it, is she targets what she knows about those people and their insecurities, and she gives it to them. So like Margot is insecure about her own power, and so Eve defers to her. She's like, you're the queen. I'm obsessed with you. I'll do anything you say, run me over with a car. And Margot was like, I kind of like this girl because that's like who Margot is.

She wants somebody who's like Margot is the most important person in the universe. So like Eve fucking works to get everybody on her side before she really starts sucking up their lives, and like Bill, you know, she's like, hey, uh, let me ask you a question about theater. He jumps down her throat. She immediately is like, that's okay, I don't mind. I like it, daddy, And he's like, hmmm, I kind of like this girl. Like everybody she meets, she she is exactly what they want her to be.

And you know, that's a lot of work. When she tells the story of her life, she sets it up so that Margot and the play aged in Wood literally saved her life. And who doesn't want to hear that? Who doesn't want to hear I was at my lowest point and you and your art saved me right, Like it's just it's it's so she is incredibly smart, and she's like determined in a very funny old timing way.

But she's very determined to change her like station in life, which a lot of us are, and it's like you, she's trying to live out the American dream and she's like willing to ruin people's lives over it, and it sounds like, I mean, we don't know what Margot was like as a young woman, but we do know that Margot also started as like a lower middle class girl

and escalated to the huge star that she is. So it's not out of the realm with possibility that Margot was once using this playbook, um, which I think it

would be kind of interesting to know. But I think like Eve, I mean, I know, even the quote unquote villain of the story, but even watching it, even if you don't interpret Eve as the villain of the story, it is like cool to see, like you're saying, sorry, how she uses that playbook, which it's like in many ways, and it's like frustrating to watch her have to kind of like convince these mostly male figures and Margot that she is worthy and to get the information she needs

to get to where she wants to be. But then you kind of see at a much lower less scary level. Marilyn Monrose character has to do the exact same thing where she's like brought out and told immediately like you have to be nice to this old man. If you want to be successful, do it. And then and people get frustrated with her because she's good at it. But it's like you told her that that was the only

option she had, Like what else is she supposed to do? Yeah, like Addison de Witt brings her to Margo's party to flirt with Max. Yeah, to flirt with Max, because Max is a producer, and Max is just like, oh my stomach, you know, like he's that Hollywood producer we all know and love from the forties. I guess he's like I need I need digestivates. You're like, yeah, get this man some thums. You're like, what the fund does this guy do? And then Addison just as goes, okay, well here's Max.

Go basically, you know, pull your dress down off one shoulder and go, you know, hang out with him a little bit. And she's like, okay, just go show over your tits, okay. But it's like she's not given and and it's also what I like about I mean, There's not too much to say about Marilyn Monro's character. She's only in two scenes, but she does have that little arc where I think she tells him like outright, she's

just like, whire all of these guys gross. Like she basically says, I hate that I have to do this, and he's like, well, you have to do it, so yeah, yeah, And it's like that. I I appreciate that this greenwriting goes to like demonstrate that, like, these women aren't idiots. They know that like what is being asked if them

is unreasonable. But there there doesn't at this time seem to be an alternative, right because, like I mean, we we talk about what women sometimes have to do to get ahead in the world because the world is set up so that it's harder for women to you know, make a livable income or to get promotions or be leaders of industry or anything like that. And this was, you know, even more true for nineteen fifty than it

is now. So that means that, you know, women sometimes have to turn to other avenues just to be able to survive or get ahead in the smallest way, and sometimes that means women having to use their sexuality to get ahead, which is what we see Marilyn Monroe do um well, and Eve's willing to do it too. She tries to seduce Bill, she tries to seduce Lloyd. Okay, so question about even Lloyd. Do you think she's bullshitting Addison at the end, I can't tell. I feel like

just knowing her, yes, I think she is. But I'm always down to hate Lloyd more. But it doesn't seem like that just seems like it happened too fast to be true, and things like we don't see and you know, the fact that they apparently cut fifty pages of script kind of makes this make more sense. I'm like, we never we as viewers never see them together, which is a thing that we need to have to you know what I mean. In this film, the camera is objective, so if we had seen Lloyd and Eve make out,

I would believe it. But when Eve says something, I don't necessarily believe it, right, which is like you're supposed to feel that way too, So you're just like, but but is that an artistic choice to like to imply ambiguity or is it just cover time? I'm not sure, But I mean, so we have like women using their

sexuality to get ahead. We or like women marrying a man who will provide financial security, and that's maybe like what Karen does with Lloyd, because like she's always framed as like I don't have any part of the theater except for my husband, he is a playwright, and she does have his job for him. What do we see over and over, Like she makes a lot of the high level decisions, she makes casting decisions like I'm just like put her on the bank roll Lloyd, Jesus no, yeah,

yeah yeah. And then another thing that women might have to do to again like change their station in life is to trample on other women to get ahead, which is what Eve is doing. But again, like, there are a lot of situations where women might feel like they have to compete against another woman for something, and it's often because they're operating within an industry or an institution that is again controlled by men, and men have only allotted a small number of spaces for the women to occupy.

So of course, like women and feel like they have to compete against each other for these very finite number of spaces, especially when society gives women like an expiration date and like doesn't value older women, which is Margot's whole insecurity Um And I feel like a lot of a lot of movies that we've talked about do have this through line of women being in competition with each

other and some into varying degrees of success. Will they explore why that might be, But the fact that it attempts it, I feel like it is like kind of impressive, kind of impressive for ninety especially a movie that was, you know, written and directed by a man um because a lot of these movies, like the ones that we've covered so far in the podcast, that have been about

kind of antagonistic or competitive female relationships. You know, We've got Death Becomes Her, Working Girl and the Favorite Those are some of our Matreon episodes. We've got Black Swan, We've got Single White Female, We've got My Best Friend's Wedding. And I think all of these movies are written and or directed by men. So I'm like, if manco Witz can do it thirty years before you did, what's the problem or just let a woman write a movie. Women's

interiority was not invented until the nineties. But I also wonder like how many of these men are just like, well, women be petty and women be competing against each other. I have no idea why they might be like that, but that's how they be, so like they just make movies about it. There. The other thing with this that is not even mentioned in the film's credits, which seems kind of fucked, is that um Joseph Manko has adapted this from a short story written by a woman. Um,

which may expect. I don't know how faithfully adapted it is. I think that he like it was a pretty short story and he really flushed it out, and it was mainly the Eve character that he took. But it was a short story written by a writer named Mary Or who I guess was hanging or round Hollywood and had like seen some all about Eve situation and wrote about it. But she's not She's not credited at all, and she's not credited. They just like stole her story and didn't

credit her. Well, I mean, I think she didn't steal it. She was pay like she was, but she wasn't credited, which is like bad. Um, We've got to take another quick break, but we'll come right back. Well, we're talking about Eve. I wanted to talk Caitlin. We talked about this briefly yesterday. But um, there has been a fair

amount written about um how Eve maybe queer coded. It's never been said by Mankowitz whether this was intended, but um, it's been speculated that the characters of Addison de Witt and Eve are both queer coded characters, and they are also the two villains of the story. Um, which seems to be you know, a very um, regressive, old timmy Hollywood thing that happens all the time. But there's been I mean, it's weird, there's stuff written about it kind

of both ways. I'm pulling brilliantly from the Wikipedia page here. But um, brave, brave Jamie, thank you so much. I can't wait for to read our iTunes reviews of like These Dumb Broads Should Die? Um um okay. Professor Robert J. Corber, who has studied homophobia within the cultural context of the Coldware in the US, posits the foundational theme and all but Eve is the defense of the norms of heterosexuality,

specifically in terms of patriarchal marriage. Uh must be upheld in the face of challenges from female agency and homosexuality. The nurturing heterosexual relationships of Margo and Bill, and of Karen and Lloyd served to contrast the loveless relationship, predation, and sterile careerism of the homosexual characters, even Addison. Um, okay, so question what is the basis for reading Eve as queer coded? I guess because she never she's like doesn't

have a real boyfriend. I don't know, right, Okay, so this is basically the same thing with Addison is like he's kind of effeminine and he doesn't have a girlfriend. That's it. Well, I've also seen people. I've also seen people site the line and it's it's like either way, they don't explicitly like Addison for sure fields old timey queer coding to me. But I'm like, maybe that's not true. I don't know, but but there is that one line. I definitely I definitely think so. But um, sometimes that's

all there is, you know what I mean. Like, but but that doesn't mean that it's not a thing, you know what I mean? The line I saw people sighting in writing about this movie as like possibly commenting on quirt as. It was at the end where Addison says that he like actually doesn't want to suck or anything. She's gross and then he says, you're an improbable person, Eve,

So am I we have that in common? And so different people have interpreted that as some like very production codey it may shin of otherness, but it was never said. And and interestingly, Mankowitz Um has said in interviews later, I don't think he was asked about this outright, but that he he um is not homophobic, which is I mean imagine um he said that, Um he thinks that society should quote drop its vendetta against homosexuals unquote, which is a very old timey way to be an ally. Um.

Can I give a different reading? And I'm sorry, I just I've been too exposed to b D s M culture via via a close friend to not be able to read so many scenes in this as highly sexual power dynamics. So one way that I read Addison and Eve is like he shows up and he's like, hey, what if I own you? And she's like, UM, no thanks, and he's like, all blackmail you if you don't let me own you, because that's what he wants to do.

And while I see that as a reading of like he's gay and he wants a beard, you know, if that's like the queer reading. It's like beat my girlfriend in public, and I'll not reveal your secret life to anyone. Also want to mention her real name, Gertrude Slovinsky. There might be some other types of coding going on here

that's true or not careful. There might be a little bit of a little bit of anti Semitism here if we're if we're thinking about it, and I mean you would think that in this I mean, I think that this movie is supposed to take place around n That used to be a super common Hollywood practice would be if you had a name that sounded to other in any way, you just have to change it. But not

make a Witz, not make Wits. But if make a Witz was a woman, maybe he would have possibly, Yeah, you know, I think I think it's a it's a it's an interesting way of commenting on like whitewashing in Hollywood. I mean, the whole readA Hey Earth story. There's so many stories like that. It's an interesting it's an interesting point. But anyways, back to back to even Addison, Um, it

really feels like it's a very master slave type relationship. Um. And that may not be what is implied, but I think if you, uh, if you wanted to read it that way, you could and it just I don't know, it really jumps out at me. That's a fun read like that. There dynamic is like, so it's so sexy, you know, as you said, um, as you quoted from that. Basically the queer theory reading of it, their relationship is

very sterile, sexless ambitious. It's all about getting ahead. He wants to be with her, not because he wants to fuck her, you know, it's about my career, like your body disgusts me. I only love power. Let's use each other. Yeah, and then Eve is like mmmm, but like once Eve, Eve immediately uses Addison before before that part. She uses Addison from the beginning to at a hit like she's like, come watch my audition. Oh, I'll hang out with you, like, and she uses him in his column. I don't know.

It's it's a very it's a tale of like two people who are both very strong willed and trying to manipulate each other. And then Addison is like, I have out manipulated you. Now you're the sub I don't know. I like this theory and it should be added to the Wikipedia page. Thank you. Please, added Jamie added to the page, I'll do it. But yeah, that there, that's the that's the queer theory reading. Before we get to Margaret.

I mean, Margot's the one to watch here, but I wanted I had a few things to say quickly about Karen a k a the his wife of the story. I could talk about Karen four hours. Karen is I feel again it's like they're most movies of this time and of this time would not make Karen such a like a character with such depth, because she's presented to us as like she is the good wife Julianna Margolie's like she she's very polite, she's very respectful, she is

doing what society is expecting of her. But later you get to see that she's like frustrated. She's frustrated and insecure in her marriage because she's married to an egotistical, asshole,

narcissist who doesn't recognize how much she's contributing to his career. She, like Margot, is constantly told that she's being hysterical when she is simply stating what is happening in front of people, and I like that her Her friendship with Margot is kind of complicated too, because Margot is condescending to her for being a good wife, So like Karen is being put down for doing what society is asked of her, and Margot, I kind of interpret, like takes out her

insecurity on Karen and be like, oh, you're such a good little wife, and then that motivates Karen to kind of fuck Margot over a little, which, like I think lesser writing would make that seem like women be fucking each other over, But with Karen, it's like, no one isn't shipping on Karen and she's only like doing what she thinks that she's supposed to do, and so I just like, I think she's fascinating, and I mean, I just like her. Between Margot, Bill Lloyd, and Eve, everyone

in Karen's life is a narcissist except Bertie. Except for Bertie, who is so awesome. Bertie is absolutely my favorite character. She's Karen is like caretaking everybody, constantly catering to these huge egos that are pummeling her from every direction. Like can you imagine being friends with Margot the world's biggest leo, Like just somebody who's always like it's all about me, me, me, like literally the star of the show on stage and off,

she's exactly the same. Everybody is like Margot's famous for being nuts, so like she's just a very classic drama Queen's literally Betty Davis like it's just yeah, and she's like, she's like, Karen's my best friend, Like, who do you think that best friend is not somebody who's ever going to try and take the spotlight away from her? Yeah, someone who's compartmentalizing the funk out of her life, no threat to Margot whatsoever, and someone who's very, very very

happy being being totally behind the scenes. Karen deserves better, but also she then she drains the gas tank and it's like, I'm gonna sunk over my friend. I like that. I like that, Karen. But Karen's not smart there I think, I mean, Karen's smarter than people give her credit for it, but I guess that that's kind of relative. But she's not that smart. Everyone treats Karen like a fucking idiot,

and she is like average. She thinks she's smart. I just don't think she's conniving the way that like Eve is, or I don't think she is. She does like one mean thing and then immediately feels endless guilt about it, And I mean it was a really shitty thing, Like I think what Karen does is almost worse than things that that like. And she never comes clean to Margot

about it. I mean, Margot would murder her, but Margot would murder her, and so she doesn't tell her, and so she is kind of in a way lying to her best friend. She is yes, to protect her life. These people need therapy, So a therapist. Why would I have a therapist when I get sorry, when I could have a bottle of scotch ha ha. You're just like, oh my god, therapist right, hair on the ball cock.

But then I feel I mean, I do feel bad for Margot, who again is like a pretty egomaniacal narcissist who, maybe you could argue, kind of drums up drama now and then. But also like she is, you know, the victim of Eve exploiting and manipulating her. And she keeps saying like, I don't trust this woman. She's annoying me. She's like pushing boundaries, like there's a lot of issues here. She's lying all this stuff, and you know, Bill is like, you're a paranoid none of this is happening. You know.

Lloyd is over here being like having you in my place is a compromise. Your performances are lackluster, but it's only because he's not writing the right parts for her. He calls her a piano. It makes me so mad. Oh he like it's it's one of those funny ones where you're like, oh, men objectify women, and then you hear that line and you're like that's a bit much like there. Yeah, like that's a little too on the nose, dude, we get it. You think women are objects exactly brutal.

I love in the party scene where Addison is like kind of drunk and he's just like blathering about like we're all freaks in the theater and like talking about how they're all they all go to the theater because they have nowhere else to go. Man, it's like this fucking breakfast club ass moment. And he's like, that's why we're all here, dude, and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, we're all a little random here, and you're like, stop it.

It's so x d I do agree. I think that, like Marco, I mean, Margot is that's why she's so amazing. It's like she like, there are times where she is being a straight up brat, she's being a diva at different times, but then there's other times where it's like, no, she this concern she has is legitimate and people are ignoring her, and she's just defensive about it because everybody is constantly telling her, like, hey, don't you think you should maybe think about retiring? So she's kind of like, no,

funk off. Yeah, there's a few. There's a few moments that I mean, Mark like, all of her moments are great, but they were like two in particular that I was just like that always blow me away. The first one is it's a scene with her and Bill. It's been mentioned that she's like gained a little bit of weight and she's being shamed for it, and she's in the same she is almost eating a chocolate the whole scene, which is a miracle because we don't see women eating

movies ever. Uh, and Bill is calling her hysterical. He's saying it gently, but he's like, you gotta relax with all this stuff, la lah blah, and she's like resisting eating the chocolate and resisting eating the chocolate, and then once he gaslights her for the fourth or fifth time, She's just like shrugs and eats it, and it's like it's such a good moment. You're like, yep, everyone's been

in that situation. And then there's that scene with her and Karen in the car, which is like heartbreaking and so like that scene where like Margaret, like if it wasn't already clear, you know that she's like very self aware of like she doesn't want to be loved for her image. She wants to be loved for herself. But how can she expect someone to love her for herself when she can't even distinguish herself from her image? And

you're like, WHOA, that's heavy. And then she has that that monologue where she's like, funny business a woman's career, like that whole woman's career speech. Oh yeah, I have it here. She says, funny business a woman's career. The things you drop on the way up, the letters so that you can move faster. You'll forget you need the when you get back to being a woman. That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it

or not, being a woman. But then she goes on to be like and you're not a woman unless you have a man who is married to you haven't performed your gender until you have U have a sexual partner. It's it's so it's so heartbreaking because it's like you can you can see why she wants to give up show like it's it's and and it's the same with

like Bettie Davis. If like, it's not that Margot doesn't want to act, is that she just like is tired of like having to act in a very specific way that no longer makes sense, and like having to put up with all this stuff like no wonder she's like, fuck it. Yeah, how many actors, how many actors and actresses in Hollywood right now? Do you think basically feel the exact same way. Sure, I mean it's like I think you see a lot of women who I mean

usually they start lifestyle brands. But I'm thinking of someone I think of because we just recorded Are my best Friend's wedding episode yesterday, is Cameron Diaz, where like she was so famous and she always played a variation on like the same role, and then when she turned forties, she was like and I don't I mean, I don't

want to speculate and Cameron Diaza. I don't know why she chose to retire from acting, but I mean it's it's like, you know, they're there, just aren't as many options, and it's like you can go on ABC and play a lawyer, but like what else you know, there's not the options aren't always there, and it's like you you have to like empathize. I don't know, Marko, that's that

car speech, fox me up. It makes me so sad. Yeah, it's that ultimate moment if she's like, man, I know I've been a bit, but ship can you blame me? And you're like Noah, And it's so it's so like relatable to me to be like, ah, fuck, well, I

guess I was really shitty everybody. Yeah, I mean she said something like I've been over sensitive to the fact that Eve is so young, so feminine, so helpless, Like she is like admitting to her insecurities about like Eve's youth and all this stuff, and then like Karen is sitting right beside her being like well, being being feminine in this context is being helpless. Like Margot is less

feminine because she is not totally helpless. She definitely struggles with things, but she doesn't she doesn't need a man, you know, like or at least she or at least she acts like she doesn't for a while and then goes, yeah, I do. I don't like that was kind of a with with her and Bill. It's like there are a lot there are issues in that relationship. But I was kind of like, does she like need a man or

does she want one? And like, like, I think maybe she doesn't need one, but she does want one, and there's like a conflict in her feelings of like she wants a man in her life, but she only wants it on very specific terms of like she's like you are Steadman, and Bills like I don't want to be Steadman and she's like, well, I don't know what to

tell you because I want Steadman. And I mean, it's it's really interesting because it's I'm I think that it would be kind of like the easy choice to make with Marco, and I don't like the way that they end up sort of being like and then she was a wife and the end. But I think it is an interesting choice to give Margot the dimension of like, yes, she's very powerful, she guards her power, she's very talented, but she does want someone to love her for herself

and is worried that that's not going to happen. That's very understandable. And if she wants a companionship in a man like totally fine. Many many people do, but it feels like such a weird inconsistency for her to start out being like, no, I don't want to get married.

If we got married right now, it would just be to prove a point, and I don't want that, Like, we don't need to be married, and then like suddenly, out of nowhere, there's this shift in her character where she's like, well, I'm not a woman unless I marry this man, so let's get engaged. And it's like, where

is this coming from? Well, it reminds me a lot of Katherine Hepburn movies, where in the beginning she's like, I don't need a man, funk everyone, and then halfway through the movie someone goes, Katherine, you've been putting on this persona where you're a bit and we know that deep down you want love from a man, and then she goes, I do, and I love those movies and I love Katherine Hepburn, and and she knew this, and she even talked about this as an actress, that she

was typecast as you know, this this huge, gorgeous, like Amazon sort of lesbian, you know, who had as many lines and as much screen time as the man that she was in a romance with. But you know, it's it's how kind of how I feel about the Philadelphia story. Like, I love that in the beginning of that movie, she's so hard and so strong about maintaining her identity, and like in this movie, Margot was like, Hey, I love you, but I don't want to subsume my literal identity into yours.

And Bill is like, come on, come on just a little, and she's like, no, I don't like that. And then by the end she's like, know what, I really love Bill. I guess I could subsume my identity for him a little, which is a thing that millions of people do every fucking day. Yeah it sucks, because yeah, it's it sucks to like watch someone make that choice, but it's it makes sense that she like of the time, it makes I don't know, well, you know, I'm just saying like

it feels it feels relevant to now. You know, there are just people who are like who either you know, sometimes it's marriage, sometimes it's moving in with a partner. Sometimes it's just you know, your fucking boundaries or whatever. But I don't know, I feel like there are there are people now who who are in kind of the same situation. And this movie is pretty old and that

is yeah. I mean it is like and and I mean even speaking to it, you're saying about Katherine Hepburn movie is like that, like taming an independent spirit thing is such a thing. And it's also like, yeah, like the the almost like weird fantasy of like male writers being like, oh, the only reason that a woman would act independent is because they want to get the attention of a man. And then what they do they can chill, you know. And yeah, the way I do I kind

of against my better judgment. I like Margot and Bill for each other in in a lot of moments, and I do appreciate that he shows up for her in a way that that no one does in the movie, because he's like one of the only people in the

movie who doesn't really betray her at any point. Um, So we do appreciate him on that level of like he does seem to be I mean, for all the you're hysterical and not like we see the same scene with multiple female characters in this movie where it's a woman talking to a man and he's like, you're being hysterical and she's like, no, it's you're talking to me that way because of my gender, and they say what,

and then that's the whole scene. Um. Yeah, and Bill is Bill is just as guilty of that attitude as the other men in the movie. I do appreciate that he shows up for her and does seem to love her, and there's like when that bullshit Addison de Witt article comes out, he's there right away, and like, I appreciate

that element of Bill. I do think that like Margot and Bill are a very good pair because Margot really wants somebody who only wants her, and you know, for all of Bill's other faults, that is something that he is. You know, he wants, Yeah, he loves, he loves her and and I know, like for the cultural context of the time, there are things that you know, we would interpret as like clingy or weird that at the time we're like, this is what someone does when they're in

love and respect a woman. You know, it's weird it's like and in this movie, this movie is very often compared to Sunset Boulevard, which comes out around the same time, and there was like just a period I'm sure that someone's written a thesis on this, but like a period of time where like the aging actress was a part that was available to women over forty and they were like,

look at this amazing opportunity for you. You're playing yourself and how you feel insecure, and they were supposed to be like, and you're a monster, and it ends horribly for you. But but I think, I mean, I used to really like Sunset Blean. It's a very well written movie. But I think watching them both, I've seen them both this year now, and I mean, Sunset Bolevard is is

not very kind to women. And I think that, like Margot, I guess Margot's strength at the end of the movie is that she has the respect and love of the people in her life. Still, She's still even though Karen is lying to her, she has Karen, she has Lloyd, she has Bill, and she has like her support system is intact, and but that's at the expense of her

career sort of. I don't know, it's just all very right, Well, I think I think what the film like wants to portray by the end is like, sure, E've got what she wanted material gain, power, success, aim, but at the expense of she can't break up with Addison DeWitt or else he will destroy her life. So like She's got this partner who she's with not because she loves him, but because he's literally blackmailing her. And Margot has this partner who is with her because he loves her, and

that's it. He's not with her because she's famous. He's not trying to get anything out of her. He really does just want to be with her, even if she's not an actress anymore. So in that way, like Margot basically not being an actress anymore is shown as like a positive thing. Yeah, like for her identity. Yeah, it's implied that she's able to be more comfortable and more

herself not acting. But again that lets I mean, that lets Lloyd off the hook in a major way, because it's like, yes, why would you want Lloyd in your lifestyle. It's like, I mean, ultimately watching it through this time, it just felt very clear that like the villain of the movie is the industry that they're in and not even specifically, Um, whether the movie recognizes that, I kind of. I don't know. I don't think so. Actually, I don't know. I don't know how hard was thinking about this. I

don't know. I think it does. I think it touches hard on, you know, like with the with the Miss Caswell stuff, on just the disposability of young talent and how the industry will take somebody from nobody to super famous receiving industry's highest award within a year, and who knows what the funk will happen to even in a year. You know, she's like a she's like a child star basically, you know, and child stars often have a very rough

time when they stop being a child star. It's true. Yeah, I mean I think that at very at least manko Witz is he's making common he's making a pretty brutal commentary on theater specifically, which like so I'm like, okay, you know he's got some vendetta against the theater what But like, yeah, it does seem like he has an awareness that this is But but I can't tell that if he's just framing like this is how this industry works, I can't tell how critical he actually is of it,

I don't know, um, but either way, it's a fucking well written movie. It's really I have Can I share some of my favorite lines of dialogue, because there are lots. I'll try to pair this down, um, starting with I mean, there's among the many, many conversations that Margot has about age and aging in her insecurities around it. UM. At one point we learned that she is forty and Bill is thirty two, so she's eight years older than him, and she says, he's thirty two, he looks thirty two.

He looked at five years ago, he'll look at twenty years from now. I hate men. Another one is toward the beginning, when Margot says to Lloyd, be a playwright with guts, write me one about a nice, normal woman

who just shoots her husband. And we're like, yes, they really knew how to like write amazing insults and like Snyde remarks in old Hollywood Betty Davis, I guess she had a reputation for rewriting a lot of her own lines in movies, and this was supposed to be one of the only movies she was ever in that she

like didn't rewrite a single line. Amazing, interesting because there's an exchange about that where Lloyd is talking about the words he's written in his plays, and he's like, just when exactly does an actress decide they are her words that she's saying, her thoughts she's expressing. And Margot responds right back with usually at the point when she has to rewrite and rethink them to keep the audience from leaving the theater, right, which is like, literally, what Betty

Davis would do? We really really quick before I forget, So I guess. Claudette Colbert was originally supposed to play the part of Margo um and, in I think the most old Hollywood depressing reason of all time, she could not play the part and the part went to Benny Davis because Claudette Colbert hurt her back in a rape scene in a movie. Literally the movie was about her getting raped and her back was hurt, and so she

couldn't play this role of a lifetime. Most oppressing thing I've ever heard in my life anyways, um continue, that's so fucked up. Also, um manco Witz said that, and Baxter he said it was such a weird, old timey sexist compliment. He said that ann back he chose and Baxter to play Eve because she had bitch virtuosity. Yeah. I read that somewhere too, which is I'm like, I mean, he's right. I feel like women should be allowed to use that phrase among themselves. Yes, Eve has extremely high

level of bitch virtuosity. And okay, Caitlin, did you write down that part where Eve is talking about applause and she's like, applause, applause, it rushes over you like waves. Oh no, I didn't write that one down. It's so good. She's just like I can only get horny when people are applauding. That whole scene is just her monologue about like I need attention. I love it and I can't live without it. And that's why I feel like with

her in Addison, it's just about power. She's like I need the power, and he's like, I got you the power. You're my slave, and she's like, okay, Oh, here's a fun one that Marilyn Monroe's character says to Eve about Addison de Witt because Eve is like, oh, I don't want to we we should? You should to me, I'll just I'll just bore you and Marilyn Monroe says, you won't bore him, honey, you won't even get a chance

to talk. And oh, it's like such a great burn that she I don't even think she realizes is a burn. Marilyn Monroe is so good at that, at like just being like acting so dumb but saying it so perfectly. Yeah, man's great. Uh. And then I think my final favorite line that I will share is Lloyd talking to Karen

while they're arguing about Eve. He says that better cynicism of yours is something you've acquired since you've left Radcliffe, and Karen says that cynicism you referred to I acquired the day I discovered I was different from little Boys, and we're like, ah, feminist icon Karen. Karen is right. Every time a woman has intuition in this movie, she has treated as if she is making things up right, and she's always right. She's like, like, being a woman

is about knowing ship that men don't know. Good grief. The men in this movie are pretty dim. It's true. Does anyone else have any other final thoughts to share? I don't think so. This is Oh god, this is so much fun. Yeah, this is I mean, I'm so glad I got to talk about this movie with someone about um the scene where Eve is in the bathroom

with Karen and his blackmailing her. She's wearing this incredible costume that has a really high neck and has like sort of a scallop neckline, and the actual neckline is very low, but the neck is very high and in between is like a fine mesh. And it's so perfect for a scene where somebody who has acted extremely modest up until this point is suddenly is shown to be extremely false and have been like good costumes, good costumes he had. Has anyone ever said that? Also, Jamie, there

is a respute and reference? Did you catch it? I love? I mean, as if the work couldn't be elevated more so? Good God, if I wish, I wish Alfred Molina were alive for this, oh really quick car update. So I've been following, uh, Alfred Molina's fens to really carefully through the car and he he has a fence to and he's been sewing his own masks and he did a

little so is my mom. He did a little jokey post yesterday where he was a message to everyone out there in the quarantine and it was just him wearing his mask and he was like who who and everyone's like ha ha, Freddy, you crack me up. I love that. Oh. I was going to tell you, guys, I saw Alfred Malina in a play. Wait did you see the one in Pasadena? Yeah? I saw the father. I saw the daddy. It was good that daddy was so good and so sad. I was not prepared for it to be so sad.

Well I was. I was also led to believe that the woman who played ros On Fraser was going to be in the play, and that turned out to not be true. So I was a little disappointed from the guy that's so funny. My friend was just wrong. She was like Ross from Fraser is in it, and I

was like, okay with Alfred Mallina for sure. Well, this conversation about Alfred Malina unfortunately does not pass the well I know it actually does pass the Bechtel tests, because we have said that any conversation about Alfred Millina does pass. And speaking of the Bechtel test, does all about Eve pass the Bechtel tests? Oh? Yeah? With flying colors? Oh yeah,

first seen all the time. There's a lot of combinations of characters who talk to each other that passed between even Karen, between Eve and Margot, Margot and Karen, Margot and Birdie. The list goes on. It's a lot of passes. As far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on its representation of women, this one is a little tricky, and I wasn't nervous. I'll be honest, I was a little nervous to talk about this movie because

you know, it's classical Hollywood cinema. I don't know an awful lot about old Hollywood, so I was like, oh, no, there's like gonna be all this context and stuff that I don't know about, and like information about the way you know, movies were made and the way stories were told back then, and I just don't know enough about it. But I do enjoy this movie. I do still struggle with movies that are about antagonistic relationships between women. I do think this movie has like a lot of nuance

to its female characters. I do enjoy that it is female driven, but I still, if given a choice, I will almost never choose a movie that is about an antagonistic female relationship, because even though they do exist, in

the world. I far prefer to see, you know, if there's a story about an older, more distinguished, successful woman taking a younger woman under her wing and being her mentor, I would rather see that story play out that they like, have a great relationship and they conquer the world and take down the patriarchy together. And I just like I wish for more stories like that. Um, But I do, of course, I see a lot of value in this story.

I think it explores interesting themes, and I think that all the female characters are really interesting and far more fleshed out than we see in more contemporary movies, which um, you wouldn't necessarily expect. But I think that just between the the examination of Margot and her insecurities about aging, I do think that could have been explored a little bit more fully in terms of like why is she insecure about aging? Why do women end up in these competitive,

antagonistic relationships. But I think it does a fairly good job for a movie, you know, written and made in ninety But there's a lot to love about this and find very interesting and compelling. I'll give it like a three nipples. I think, Um, of course, it's an extreme I don't you know they didn't let non white people be in movies back then, and if they did, they were in the most horrific trophy stereotypical, reductive roles imaginable.

And this movie just erases people of color altogether. Yeah, it's probably better that there were no people of color in this movie, right, because they would not have been treated respectfully in any know, it would have made it so much worse. But you know, I think it does by today's standards, I think this movie holds up pretty magnificently. Um,

it's not without his issues. And then also just like the weird message of like, yes, women can be strong and awesome and great, and they shouldn't be antagonistic toward each other. But also a woman isn't a woman unless she's in a heteronormative relationship with a man and married to him. So that feels a little bit like a conflicting message. But overall, yeah, I think three nipples. I'll give two to Bertie and I'll give one to Bettie Davis. I'm gonna give this, Uh, I want to give it

three point seven five. I guess I'll go three point I don't know, I want, I wanna yeah. I I also like, you know, I'm sure I have blind spots with this movie because I love it so much, But I just I think, especially for its time, Okay, I think with the context, given it's time, I'm going to give it three point seven five because there is, like I do I agree that, um, the like implication that uh, Margot's better off as a wife than as an actor. But but it's also not that sim I don't know.

I I think that there's so many different kinds of women in this My main issue with the movie, I think is that it's not I mean, Eve is the clear cut villain, and it's not the system that they're inside of, but that is so inherent to the movie that it's hard to take yourself out of it. I just think that, I mean, this movie is about women in a way that for the most part and not but for the most part, is not condescending to their needs, wants, desires,

or relationships with anyone around them. I just, Oh, Betty Davis is so amazing. I do wish that it examined the aging more than just this is how women feel, and not examine a why do women feel it this way? Um? But just the performances are so good, and the relationships between women are so like they're they're more detailed than just like women pulling each other's hair for two hours. There's more like I just I really like it. So

I'll go three point seven five. Maybe that's too nice, give two to Bertie, uh one to Eve and uh point seven five to Margo. I'm gonna go out out and give it four full nipples, do it? See? I think something that we might want to do, Jamie for like really old movies like this is like do sort of like an adjusted for inflation nipple rating, where like if we were doing this podcast in like nineteen fifty and like this movie came out, it would be like, wow,

five nipples across the board. But like, obviously this movie made seventy years ago. I will I will also say this this is this is one of those movies where you're like, oh, this is like a play. Like this is just like a play. There's nothing visually that exciting about it. It's it looks great, but it's really just like you watch this movie for the acting and for the writing, Like there's nothing going on visually that is you know that that exciting, you know even for the time,

you know, even just differ inflation. This is a fucking talkie, you know. Uh, so you gotta you gotta sit down, you gotta be ready for like you know, there aren't they're on a lot of like fist fights or action sequences or anything in this movie. No, no big gags like that. I think you got to go into that with that mentality to enjoy it for sure. Who who would you like to give your four nipples to one to every drink that Margot had on the bumpy ride night? Perfect? Amazing?

Uh Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us for this incredible discussion. It's been a delight. Thank you for letting me talk about all about Eve for so long. This made my day. I of talking about this movie, I know, and I feel like I'm like, did we even cover everything? I feel like there's it's there's so many layers, are so much. Yeah, I feel like we kind of only scratch the surface. But thank you so much for being here, Sorrow. Where can people follow your stuff?

Follow you online? All that good stuff? Uh? You can go to my website which is hey sorry June dot com and you can sign up for an email list which is a thing that I will do if people sign up for it. It's not a thing, but I don't know social media anymore, and I don't know what to do. I mean, that's the ultimate act of self love. Yes, for the best. Yeah, you can. You can go to UM. If you are on social media, please follow means TV sometimes it means Underscore TV. It is a streaming network

and YouTube channel that I make videos for. And I'm going to have a series come out in a couple of months that I'm really excited about. Awesome, Only Jamie's in one. Yeah. Yeah, check that out. Everybody check it out. He I'm excited. Yeah, Jamie's gonna be in an episode. Yeah. I can't believe I forgot that first. We've been in here for so long. There was no life before this, It's true. Yeah, honestly, Um, it feels like one million years ago that we shot it. All right, Well, thanks

for getting on the phone with me. Guys. This is like, you know, some much needed social I'm sure you can tell. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Of course, UM come back anytime we need to discuss more older movies. You can follow us on social media at Spechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon, which is at patreon dot com slash specktel Cast. It's five dollars a month and it gets you too bonus episodes and what better time to consume more content than

right now during the quarantine. So check us out on the Matreon if you're able. It's true, you can get our more on t public. We're gonna be doing a lot of fun stuff in the coming months on the matrion if you want to join us. And uh we we love you so much. I hope this has been a sufficiently bumpy podcast. Yeah, hey, everyone, unfastened your seatbelts because the Bumpy podcast is over. Bye bye,