A Little Princess with Joelle Monique

check for all you eagle eared listeners. You're about to hear an episode about the movie A Little Princess, one of the stars of which is Vanessa Chester, who you may know was recently on the Bechdel Cast for our book Smart episode. Now, in this episode, we are talking as if we don't know her, because at the time it was recorded, we didn't. That's true. We met Vanessa

after this episode was recorded. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, hey, why are they talking about this Becky character is if they'd never met the actor, Well, that's why. We simply had not met her yet. And in the magical world of podcasting, sometimes you record an episode and then niche sits on the shelf for a while and then it's just right. So now you know and get ready for a hell of an episode. Here's a Little Princess Cast. Hello, and welcome to the beck

Del cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Drante. It was a dramatic positive. I panicked, Sorryanic, I have an offered Molina update, but you actually provided me with Because we both follow his fins to, we are not at liberty to disclose his fin stuff. Aristotle actually found the fins to and passed it on to us because that's just what we like fins to. I know that's Instagram, but like why it's like your fake Instagram.

It's like where like either you sign up to post passive aggressive things, not a good idea I would never um and or it's what famous people do to have an account that is just for people they actually know and not for like like Beyonce definitely has a fence. Has to thank you for keeping me young. So this is Freddie's fin stuff that we we became privy too. So we're recording this around the time that abortion rights

are simply gone. Hopefully when you listen to this that won't be true, but probably it will be even more true than it is right now. Unfortunately. So, but he he posted in solidarity with women because he is a feminist icon. He posted what appears to be a kaleidoscopic image of a vagina, and then said, quote, those of us without a vagina need to shut the fuck up dot dot dot in the abortion argument, no vagina means

no voice unquote. I mean a true feminist icon, truly, what an all I just said, start by breaking the Becktel test and sharing that's that's okay because we're gonna only pass the Bechdel test from here on out. Yeah, we are uniquely suited to with our movie this week. Yeah, so yeah, we use the Becktel test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation about the representation

of women in movies. And the Bechtel test, of course, is a media metric created by cartoonist Alison Bechtel that requires that a movie have two named female identifying characters who speak to each other about something other than a man. That's demonstrate RIGHTA Caitlin Jamie, what is it? Um? Oh shit? I know what I was going to say. I was going to break it. Never mind that passes that the test twist passes. I was gonna say, I didn't you see John c Riley at a at a roller skating place?

It was like motherfucker or even nish. Over three years, we still don't know how to pass on the Becktel tests bright of us well anyway, how vulnerable. So today we're talking about a Little Princess movie directed by Alfonso corn which I always forget he directed but during his green period Green Days. Learned a lot about his green period. Lots of stuff and without much further ado, let's introduce her guest that we have today. She is a pop

culture entertainment critic. She's written for Hollywood Reporter, Playboy, Paste Magazine, Pajaiba dot Com. It's Joel Monique. Hi's okay, we're so sorry, thanks for coming. I'm so excity to be here. I love this show. It's super funny guys, including you. Of course, now I'm part of thee You're canon. I was so excited because when we talked about getting you in the show at first, you didn't think for a moment before

you really oh, a Little Princess. So it's a long time favorite, a problematic in places favor, But if you're just looking for really solid representation of women, good Lord your silk of fly and it's like magical and whimsy and fantasy when it came out. I was six, so it's like a perfect age for this movie. And Emmanuel Levitsky did the cinematography and he's like iconic, so good. So yeah, it was a no brainer. It's a beautiful movie.

It looks so beautiful. Yeah, and very green, extremely green. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie? I watched it a lot as a child. This and The Secret Garden I was watching constantly. I've probably seen this movie thirty times or so because it came out when I was nine, so I was like, that's still like, it's still the age to be appreciating this. And my sister and I would watch it all the time, and then a couple of years later, Titanic would come out, which you know,

of course, takes place around this same era. There's a music box in this movie that's plays the same tune that ross music box places and Titanic, the one that goes do Do Do. I didn't notice that. I was surprised that we didn't talk about it, because when I rewatched it this morning, I was like, I know that

music box tune. Oh my goodness, must just been a very popular music box from the early very different vibes though, because in a Little Princess it's that little girl wailing because her mother's dad, and in Titanic it's Cal Hackley being like, why can't I fuck you? And she's like, no, same music box, very different sames. Yeah, so this is one of my childhood favorites, but hadn't watched it for probably twenty years or so. Um, so it was an

interesting rewatch, Jamie, what's your history? I don't have much of a history with this movie. Most people I talked to about this movie that we're not completely in love with it as children very often confuse it with The Secret Garden. I am firmly in that camp. I mean, it is based on work from the same author, the visual styles are similar, there's problematic themes about colonialism in

India and both of them. But I I think I saw it like maybe once or twice when I was when I was a little bit this this movie count when I was like two or three, So I think I kind of missed it and then saw it at a friend's house later, but it wasn't particularly attached to it. But watching it back, I mean, it's like it's an unusual movie for kids, where it like takes heavy topics and deals with them in a heavy way, which you don't I don't know. It's like an unusual approach. I

don't know. I like it, and I like my favorite colors grain, so I'm a fan. Should I do the recap? Yes? All right? So it's nineteen fourteen Titanic sunk Titanic for two years, were over it. We meet this little girl named Sarah. She lives in India with her father. They are clearly whose British colonizers as hell is that's my favorite party. You're like, wait a second, I know this daddy. You do care of another little girl needed a lot of help, Sharie. I love Dabas. He's like, you're my

little princess. This Indian woman named Maya, who's like all girls are princesses. I don't know her relationship to this Indian woman exactly. It's not clear. They really skirt what is very clearly her dad's job of participating in colonialism. They really skirt it. I have I After the recap, we can get into why. I think in this instance it might be okay, this is entirely from the perspective of a child, right, Children don't understand these things. I

don't know. I wish you washed about how I feel about the presentation of that. Sure, it's I mean definitely like Sarah being so naive about everything benefits the story in every way, because you would I guess you wouldn't if you were, like how old is Sarah is supposed

to be. She's eleven, the actresses eleven when this movie is released, So she's I think between the ages of nine and twelve, Okay, So like you wouldn't necessarily realize exactly what your parents at that point, and you're sheltered from a lot of that too, is like and and I think that it plays it makes because she is

that way. It gets us to this amazing villain that I just I really like the dynamics of the villain being like, listen, girl, Like the life that you think you're living is such a facade and you don't know hard work and you don't know what like difficulties are like. And I feel like she's really justified in a lot of places, not all of the places. She's also terrible, but I understood her. There's yeah, seeing seeing seeing her as an adult, you're like, oh, you're someone hurt you. Yes,

that is the world hurt you? Yeah? I get it? Um okay. So then Sarah's father has to go and fight in World War One. So Sarah is sent to a boarding school in New York City Ever heard of it? Wow? And she has the biggest bedroom. All her toys are there. She clearly comes from a place of extreme economic privilege. Yes, she gets a tour of the school. She meets I guess, the headmistress, Mismntion. She's very strict, an icon skunky stripe. Love it. We meet her sister, Amelia Mention, who is

nicer than her. Her sister miss teacher there. And then Sarah sees this little black girl who is mopping the floor and she is like m And then Sarah meets the other girls who attend the school and one of them is really mean. All she wants to do is brush her hair. What of it? Sarah starts her lessons and the school has a lot of rules. Mis Mention is always yelling at her. And then Sarah sees this black servant girl again and she's curious about her and she finds out that her name is Becky, which I

love the arny of a black girl being named Becky to. So, so Sarah goes up to Becky's living quarters and she's like, you have to go or we'll both be in trouble. She's like icing her feet. She has very uncomfortable shoes. So then Sarah sends Becky a new pair of shoes, shoes that I would like to have myself. Yellow. They're furry shoes. They have heels, but they're slippers. Yeah, they're beaver lined. Listen, this is fourteen and their fancy as hell.

She spared no expense. And then Sarah gets in trouble again because she uses her imagination to liven up story time and Miss Mentioned is like, don't you use your imagination. But the girls want to hear Sarah's stories about like the princesses and princes and India's so that she's like sharing stories that Maya had told her previously. I think that story she learned when she was living in India. Yes, so all the girls go to Sarah's room in secret

so that they can keep hearing her stories. Meanwhile, Sarah's father is deep in the trenches of World War Wilds. In it there's mustard gas and everything. It sucks. And then during Sarah's birthday party, she receives word that her father was killed in action and that the British government has seized control of his company on all of his assets, which means that Sarah is not penniless. She has no money. This is the one scene where I feel Miss mentioned

went too far about it too. I don't I want to get too into it, but like, I just you didn't have stuff that little girl's birthday, right, Why couldn't she have had one more hour of happiness, just joy, like the peak of her joy. She's like, now is the time you crush it? But yeah, I also feel like she's a woman who's like, these girls can be prepared for harm and hurt and I'm not going to shield them from because the world certainly, and she has such a hard time getting the words out to say it.

It's clear that she doesn't take joy and hurting her. But I also think that she does take a little bit of pride be able to knock her down to pay. It's such a weird time to be like taking pride in something like that, and especially with a child. She's just so insecure. I feel for her deeply. She needs a good therapist. Yes she does. God, I've been no one believed in therapy at this time. Freud who is he passenger? And then that black balloon is like moving

to forward her. So it's so good. The cinematography and this movie is so good. It definitely feels like foreshadowing for like mis mention to hurt you, miss her. Daddy didn't tell that she was a princess enough, and that's why she's me class. So yeah, miss mentioned is like, you're a loan in the world now, Sarah, unless I just side to keep you here out of charity. So all of Sarah's belongings now belong to Mismntion, and she is put to work as a servant in the school

to earn her room and board. She's living like next in the attic with Becky and Mismntioned is like, you're not a princess any longer, because throughout the story so far, Sarah has has been telling her peers at school, you're a princess. I'm a princess where all princesses. So you know, she's taken down a pay. So she moves to the attic with Becky and starts working as a servant. They become good friends. And then also there's something going on

next door. There's an old man who lives there who has a son who is also fighting in the war. He has gone like m I A. And then there's an Indian man who lives with him. Again, that relationship is unclear, although according to some of my research, he is identified as a servant to the old man. And then Sarah keep seeing him around town. And then there's an injured soldier with amnesia who turns up who they think might be the old man's son John, but it's

not because it's Sarah's Danny. Can you hear me? Listen? I really thought she was going to launch into a full musical, can you hear It's amazing? The restrength in this not being a musical incredible, although she does sing the song at the end. Oh okay, they were just this close that. We'll talk about the child actress who played her. What a what a story? We don't know?

Get it? Okay? Um? So the old man takes Papa in, but he doesn't remember anything, he doesn't know who he is, he doesn't know that he has a daughter, and Sarah, of course, is not yet perfect to this information. Young Sir Davos still hot. You can get it now, he could get it in, So Sarah decides to start getting back at Miss mentioned. They pour some soot into her room. The other girls helps Sarah get her lock it back

by stealing it from Miss Mention. They go up to the attic to give her the lock it and to hear more of her stories, but then Miss Mention catches them and she's like, Sarah, how many times do I have to tell you you're not a princess? Look at the mirror, your gross and you're not allowed to eat tomorrow, and neither are you Becky. Sarah's all like, well, I am still a princess. All girls are princesses. Didn't your

father ever tell you that? And then Miss mentioned she's crying and she's upset, but we'll never learn why she has to become a chimney sweep and her bosses and kids. Couldn't you they explain literally everything. You're like, okay, but why is she poor? Okay because the government sees it. Okay,

like they give you explation for everything. But then at the end, she's like a chimney sleeping You're like, that doesn't track I don't understand what happened to see her get fired and there she didn't really the cops and seem to care, like, I guess we just go home now. For men to arrest a little girl was a lot. But and then the plaque on the school says like the Randolph School for Girls, and I think that's the name of the man next door, so I guess he

buys the school reading it's fundamentals. But before that all happens, Sarah and Becky even told that they're not allowed to eat at all. They have to do like all their chores without any meals for the day. And then they wake up that morning and there's this whole feast in the attic for them that we are meant to believe the mysterious Indian man next door somehow provided for them, and he like there's snow. He gives the whole room

and make over. Some real mystic surgery going on here, right, And then miss mentioned comes in and sees all this stuff, and she thinks Sarah stole it, so she calls the police. So Sarah escapes into the house next door and sees her father, but he still has amnesia and don't remember the scene of the entire polow it gets me howls.

Oh my god. Her performance in that scene, you're like, whoa, she almost fell off a building, like client how in the rain running from the police, think goodbye to a girls, she considers her sister finds the one thing she's looking for. He's like, I don't know. I'm so sorry it's not

my kid more a please stage left. She breaks out crazy and then so he doesn't remember who she is, so the police come in and they're taking her away, but suddenly he does remember because again the indianman stares really hard at him, and he's cured of his amnesia. And the music cue with the no More Amnesia. You're like, oh, this is all sorts of wrong. It's only that one music queue for all the magical happenstance this year, exact

same one. You're like, okay, I guess like that blod It's response to because you're like, at this point, oh, something good about right, it's so weird. And then they have that conversation when Davos is like, blindfold is still on, but you call him what's Liam cunning at BA? But he's wearing his like his blindfold and his memory starts to come back when the Indian man says he's from India, and then Davos is like, India, that's it. But his

daughter's voice screaming for help across the alley lane. No, shut the window. That's just a loud little kid next door. But this India, you speak, it's his favorite place on the planets. Only dream in India, okay, bro So then yeah, so then her father remember, Papa remembers, and they reunite, and then everything is great. Becky goes with them. I guess I go back to India. Not sure. They at least take a left. That's where the maybe somewhere better

than this. And then yeah, miss mentioned has to work as a chimney sweep. Amelia has run off with the milkman. Good for you, girl, and then that the end of the story. And then there's no one to educate the girls, and we don't know what the French teacher, I guess is still there. That's not good for those girls. He did not seem competent. He just wanted tea and a nap. Okay. He was so tired, and to be very rude to

ladies in charge. Listen, we don't always have to agree, but in front of children, we are reunited front and be like, she could teach you a thing about your friends, like bitch, what how dare you? Miss mentioned? Miss mentioned? Ending up? And then the kid who's her boss was a kid she had yelled at earlier. I appreciate that that kid's are I was like, oh he gets yelled at I mis mentioned, And then end he's like, I'm your fucking boss. I'm seven, Like that kid hades he

was going in for that money. He was like, excuse me, no, you pay me my job. He knew his value, yes, yes, and taught our girls of value. Oh my god, what a movie, what a wild story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll jump into the discussion. Where where should we start. Well, there's so much for me having grown up with this movie and still appreciating it to some degree. It's a story that is at least partly about female friendship, like that's one of the core tenants

of of the movie. And then it's specifically about female friendship among young girls, which is not that common in like mainstream movies, which is crazy. But like we talked a little bit about this on the it takes two episode. But there's like just so few movies about like girls being friends or like a no ensemble cast of young girls and like the stuff that they do together and the things that they talk about together, and like what

they have in and I I appreciate it. I was a little I've had forgotten about the bully character and I was like, oh, it's so easy to like create friction that way. But even the like Sarah and what's the name of that Carona and aunt named Lavinia's I have a super soft spot for Hell yeah, I love Lavinia. I love Lavinia because she is like I feel like the film does a really good job of showing like

what Lavinia's issue. It's like Lavinia was the most popular and probably would never have had a problem with this girl except for that her. You're like, she's gonna be the most popular girl, and she's like, whoa, whoa, my status is in jeopardy and her status is like the only thing she has. She loves having the girls follow her around. And it's not no, it's definitely not like

the best kind of person. You don't want to model your life after Lavinia, but it's like an honest portrayal of I think a girl who has found herself like a corner of attention, and I think it's strings through all these girls stories, so they just missed their parents really bad. And I think Lavinia never talks about her parents, but I imagine part of this is missing her parents.

Part of this like popularity and being surrounded and being comforted and knowing people like prefer her Like it's not I do a lot of inferring in this movie, So feel free to be like, well, that's a great headcanon, but this is not what was shown in the movie.

A problem with it because I don't know, maybe I'm trying to justify it, but I feel strongly like Lavinia has a really solid art because even at the end we get that great little hug where she was like you because you're no longer going to be a problem. You can't if you're not here, So I like you plenty. He was like, Okay, she did not redeem herself in any way. Lavinia did not. But suddenly Sarah's like, Okay,

let's hug. It seems a little to me like Lavinia is Searcy and Sarah is Denares, and she's like Sarah is very very pure she I. I liked the lavinia. I liked that there was an ark and that that was resolved and it wasn't just like and now the mean girl is mean forever and right. I don't know, I mean, all the relationships between the girls felt like I mean, they spoke like they were, you know, thirty at times, but that's movies, and I thought it was

the time period. I think like children, especially of an educated certain level, were required to They were spoken to like adults. You were considered like a young adult at like twelve instead of like us were like your now, you're like a whole person. People they had to quicker.

But I liked, I mean, all the relationships between the girls at the school, it felt like realistic and it was really nice to see how their worldviews were shaped by the adults around them, which I think was like had part to do with how the other girls received Becky just based on what they had been told by adults, where like that's there's that exchange between Sarah, who this

is like her first time. We're assuming this is her first time seeing an interaction like this, and she doesn't seem to understand, Like why isn't Becky with us, why is she wearing something different? And then the girl she's speaking to she says, that's Becky. She's not allowed to talk to us. Why not? She's a servant girl and she has dark skin, so well doesn't that mean something?

Like it's just like I mean, it was just like it was interesting to see like a young girl like encountering that and then also having the girls around her explain, oh, isn't this just like how things are and like just not challenging it, and it's such a great Like the reason I really love this film is because of Becky essentially, like Becky's the only black girl in her school. I was only black girl in my school until seventh grade.

So the way the girls reacted around her, the way that they had a lot of thoughts about who Becky should be or how she should act like all that like really resident like Becky looks different and she acts different, and her responsibilities are different, and it's like to see a film explorer, you have to be taught to hate in a way that isn't so in your face about it.

It was sort of refreshing. I love the way that that scene ends because there isn't really anything for her to say, like she challenges as much as she can, and Sarah challenges most situate like when they're like no talking at the dinner table, She's like, well, that's unnatural. People discuss, you know, it's weird. I just said thank you.

Usually that's you know, really rewarded as a child, like, oh, she knows her manners um and so I I like the idea of I think this film is a really good job of showing like kids have agency and our people and have thoughts, but oftentimes they don't know what to do with those thoughts. Like I feel like a lot of times, like when we get smart kids in movie,

they're like just slam dunking on adults. Like I mean, we talked about like the precocious child trope all the time, and I didn't feel as though any of the children in this movie fell into that trope, which felt like refreshing to see like kids acting like kids. And even when like Sarah challenges Lonnie the smallest bit, you almost see her be like, oh, I don't know, like like that's just I don't know. I never had a cognitive thought about this. I just accepted what was given to me.

And I guess it makes sense for Sarah to have that attitude because I mean she grew up in India among people with dark skin and like that, I mean she was a British colonizer, even though she has an American accent. Confusing, but I guess I mean people with

dark skin were very normal to her. This is where I think it gets muddled, as like, Okay, it would have been great to have gotten some reference points of what her status wasn't that society and where her father's position of rank was, because is he like just the soldier hanging out and he's practically one of the people. And then money, yeah, which makes me think there's much higher. Also, when we see her room in India, it's like elaborate

and gorgeous. They say it's the biggest room. He says, I spared no expense, like he's they're clearly very wealthy totally, And so I think trying to figure out, like how

much did she see? How much does she aware? Because as much as I believe you have to be taught, also believe that by like ten, you've seen enough of the world east can start putting together how human street different humans differently, Um and I think she would have seen bits and pieces of that in India, and so it's like, I don't know, it's nice that she's so innocent and you can kind of pass it off, but it's also hard to believe that she would be like that.

And yeah, there's I mean, and there's like a lot of and we can get into this later as well, but like there's a lot of you know, like confusion and a little bit of I guess I don't know if we can call it a controversy if it's in

a hundred year old book. But Frances Hodgson Burnett, who read this The Secret Garden uh never went to India, had never been there, but us as like those colonial themes like in the background of so many of her books, and presents Indian characters as like very docile and like the sight he really was bothering me. By the end of the movie, I'm like, this is like maybe a third of his lines are just that one word, and it's such a signal call of servitude, and it's just like,

I don't think we needed it. She hangs out with so many like servants, people of different skin color, Like you could have made this person a human being as opposed to just the magical genie figure, right, yeah, and and I mean and it's like especially because like this movie takes place in nine four when rebellion in India is becoming like a huge thing. This is like when Gandhi's movement is taking off, and they're like, no, they're

mostly just there to make dinner appear by magic. Like it's just it's I don't know, so the like the whole way that that author approaches stuff like that, it seems to be like agreed upon that it's like very at best, very misguided. That might serve as a good transition into the conversation that I had with our friend Paula Vanalan, friend of the show, friend of the show. We had a quick chat with her that we will

play for you now. Hi, Caitlin, Here, I am sitting with a friend of the podcast, Paula vignal In, who watched the movie with us and then also recorded this previously and then the audio quality was bad, my fault. So we're doing this again. Yeah, I get to talk more. Yes, So thanks for coming back. We really appreciate it and we would love to hear your insights about the representation

of Indian people Indian culture in the movie A Little Princess. Yes, you gave me notes because this was a month ago and I forgot um. I guess we could start by talking about the mythology that's represented in the movie, and that's like the story of the Ramayanaum. To set this up a little bit, the Sarah character is telling a story to her classmates throughout the course of the movie.

So every so often we'll we'll cut two scenes of Sarah telling the story, and then there will also be other cuts to characters enacting the story that she's telling. So that's the setup. And I think we thought that from the beginning of the movie it was a story told to her by an Indian woman that she's then relaying, Right,

that's what we're meant to believe, I think. But I think she is taking ownership of the story because her friends are all like, you're such a good storyteller, and it's like she just was telling Hindu mythology, like a whole religion to her friends, and it's just like I came up with us well, full disclosure, when I watched this movie a lot as a kid, I had no idea that the story that she was telling was any sort of Hindu mythology. I thought that I don't even

know what I thought it was Almo. I think I thought as a kid that she was just kind of making the story up as she goes, especially because we see a scene in the movie at some point where she doesn't like the boring story that's being told at story time, so she starts to invent an alternate ending for like, she basically writes fan fix in her during story time. So I just kind of assumed that she was applying those creative storytelling skills to her telling this story.

But now I know thanks to Lord Rama and Sita, and it's a whole, a whole big thing in Hindu mythology, and the way that it's presented. One thing that I didn't I know that they can't tell like the whole story of it, and they left out like blaring parts. So they're banished to a forest, and he has a brother. They don't bring up the brother, the brother's acute character. Um, she gets captured by Ravenna, who is a demon with many heads. The representation in this fucking movie was like

an acid trip. Not that I would know what that is of course not of course not recorded audience. No one has ever done drugs, no one, nobody knows what drugs are, but assuming um, but yeah, it was crazy, like the representation of the demon was insane, and then there was like whole chunks of the middle. The monkey god Hanuman is a big part of this story and

wasn't brought into it. So it's basically the kidnapping of Sita and the rescue of her that was only represented in this which is retelling very much like a fairy tale, almost Christian did like just gent out of it. It's just like a princess gets captured and a prince needs to save her from a tower in a castle, like that's what. I don't even remember the tower being a thing, but I was like when I thought, I was like, is this reponsible, Like what's happening? It's kind of invoking

like yeah, that's sort of imagery. So yeah, it just it seems to me like she's just like doing this very like American eyes, like bastardized version of this Hindu mythology, and they whitewashed it even more by having white actors play the god. Yes, okay, right, so when the movie cuts away to Rama and Sita playing out the story that Sarah is telling. The actors who are playing those

two characters are white. We've got Liam Cunningham, who plays Sarah's father, who's also playing Rama in like blue face, but like brown face essentially because it's you know, a brown it's a brown blue face. Okay, right right, um? And then Sita is played by an Australian actor named Alison Moyer. Was she like the mom and the photograph? I think so, yes, I think that's what. So basically Sarah's like retelling a story with her parents cast as like Hindu gods and god, yes and ship Um damn.

That's bold. That is bold. You were also saying that she butchers a lot of the pronunciations of different like I can't remember specifics now, but for sure yeah, um, which is like, it's understandable white people can't pronounce things.

We know this. I'm sure I've already mispronounced. It's fine, but everything together was troubled, right, because I mean it's essentially again, because there's no nothing is done in the movie to explain that the story that she is telling actually comes from Hindu mythology and is not just some like make believe she's Yeah, it's like a white girl just taking over a whole religion, which is very invoking

of that. Do you remember when that like dad went and planted a flag in Africa and declared that land his daughter's like the American dad. That's what that felt like a little bit. It's like my princess owns this now, right, Okay. So then the other main issue, as far as I can tell with the movie in this context is the character. His name is rom Doss. Is that how you say that? Yeah? He is the Indian man who lives next door to

the school where Sarah attends school. He essentially assumes the role of a like mystical magical person who's like all seeing, all know, he seems to have powers, like because like white movies, American movies love to poise like a person who is black or East Asian or South Asian as the like magical foreigner trope, and this which movie does it? I'm fine with As long as you think we can curse you, I don't give a ship. As long as you think we're more powerful than you, I don't know

the fuck like bow to us or whatever, Right, on. Yeah, so he's like he does always show up, and there's was I imagining this or like did I is there like a sound of wind chimes whenever he shows up or something like that. There's like a specific music cue very Indian. Yes, it's almost like, yeah, he does his powers, which is like anytime you look at him and he's just like right because here are a few of the things that happened as it relates to his magical mysticism.

He somehow always knows what's going on with Sarah. He happens to be on the boat that Sarah and her father are on when they're traveling from India to the US. He just happens to live next door at the school. It's suggested that he is the one who brings them like this big feast. He decorates there. He basically the girl eyes Yeah, their room, you know he does. He gives them new clothes, he gives them food, he does

the whole Bobby decoration thing. It was it was Sarah and her friend and it was yeah, they like walking in the room, They're like, oh my god. They wake up like in the like very ornate bed. So it's like, how did he do all this stuff without waking them up. He like did this overnight. So it's like this. I've always argued that Santa Claus is Indian. We're very hospitable and we'll come to your house and give you sweets. I mean, the things that he does in the movie,

you know, are very kind and generous gestures. But I think that some people might find this trope problematic. Sure, I know it is. I just like exercising power over white people, that is important, but yeah, it's not It's not good to dehumanize other ethnicity. Yeah, it also justifies trying to colonize them, right, It's like you're trying to harness their power. It's like the fucking Wakonda thing. Why everybody's trying to go there, you know what I mean,

Like they're like they have something, we want it. So that's I don't know that character was played by a brown man, right, Yes, so at least they didn't whitewash

every Indian character in the movie. And then the really wild thing is that there's like this weird like dais x mockin a thing that he does in the movie where it's the climactic scene her father still doesn't have his memory, and then ram Das just looks at him but really hard him, super hard, very determined, and then that's somehow, with his magical energy, he is able to restore the memory of Sarah's father, and then that's what effectively resolves the whole story. It's just really playing in

the trope of like Indian doctors. That's you're playing into that trope to not every Indian is going to heal your memory people, right, Like Indian people do other things to be magic and be doctors. Also, like we have to study hard to be doctors. Okay, we don't just stare at people. Probably not as hard as everyone. But I'm kidding, I'm kidding. So that, yeah, that's not great. And then we also see him in like several different scenes over the course of what we can assume is

many different months the movie takes. But but he's always wearing the same exact outfit. I think, so I remember there being so we talked about orange and green. He wears orange and green a lot too. He's wearing I think mostly gold or like, yeah, but if memory serves, he's either wearing the same thing or nearly the same exact thing in every as if he only has the one outfit. Yeah, so's ever been to a fucking Indian wedding,

You know that's not true. We do changes during the wedding ceremony in South India, so like literally the bride changes her Sorry, So I just feel like that doesn't do our culture, just mis representation. There's another kind of bizarre thing that happens where Sarah puts a curse on another classmate of hers. She like kind of speaks in a language that I certainly didn't recognize. You said that

you didn't recognize it. It might just be that she's kind of speaking in tongues and then she's like, oh, that was just a curse from a witch that I learned in India. It will probably make your hair found out. So it's just like adding another layer of like showing Indian culture is being like this mystical foreign and potentially like almost like a scary thing that is like unfamiliar and strange to white people, but that white people can use at will, that can appropriate like yoga, They've taken

our powers from us yoga Kama Sutra. Yeah, people love to steal stuff from other cultures. So those were the main things that struck me in the movie. Was there anything else that you wanted to touch on? I think one thing that I we were talked about last time was that the only representation we had at that point was like a poo and then like this, and then people would confuse the Indian in the cabinet and it just like make a joke and I'm like, that's a

different thing. But okay, um, so there wasn't much, so it it is interesting that they took this like mysticism route as opposed to like the poverty route that usually people take. I honestly don't really remember this movie from my childhood, so I don't remember anybody like making fun

of me with it or whatever. Like I feel, I feel like this movie was definitely for white people, like a thousand percent, whereas I think like APU, like there's so much, so much issue with it that people have now, but like it definitely penetrated Indian American culture or like South Asian American culture, like it was like in our lives. But this movie, I like don't really remember it affecting me.

Watching this movie, I was like, it would be so dope if Hindu mythology there was like a different take on it that was like more American but still like true to it because like watching it, I was like, the coolest parts was the story, like you know what I mean, like the Ramayana parts. But like I was thinking, like it would be cool if there was something like a you know, Romeo cross Juliette, or it was like Leontero DiCaprio, like something like more modernized and like weird

and fun. I would love to watch that, but like for Hindu mytholog But then also so whenever it cuts to the Rama and Sita story, all the set designstra campy. So oh that is camp. Oh, now I know what campus. Everybody was arguing about what camp was for the met Gala, and it turns out it's just those scenes from the

Little Prints exactly. Amazing. Yeah, the colors are just like really weirdly like saturated and just like everything's like plastic and it's just like, yeah, they definitely made it look very fake, which was disrespectful. Yeah, it would be cool to see like a because all of those mythologies, like they're told over and over again in India in like these different like cereals and like these movies and TV

shows and stuff. But it would be cool to see like an American do it, like an Indian American or Hindu American, like whatever do it. But with the technology we have now and with like more like mad that would be kind of cool. For sure. Someone pay me all of your money. Thank you. That's anyways, that's a thought that I had. But no, that's great. This has been great. Thank you for this perspective. Is so helpful, So we really appreciate you taking the time twice. The

next time it'll be even better like this. Thanks again so much, thank for your very helpful perspective. And uh, back to the episode. We gotta take a quick break, but we will come right back. Wo. She formative and helpful in placing my feelings on where things happen and why they happen. And I feel like what kind of that conversation reveals to it? Really we could have added like a few moments here and there of dialogue, like when they first meet, Like what if he introduced himself

and was like, hey, how you do it? Like she could have like maybe said like I miss India and they could have maybe talked about a place that for them was both home, you know, and that might have given like some levity, and we didn't need, like, you know, twenty minutes of that. We need like to like some vaguely defined friendship between them, Like I think that would have served the story too, instead of him just appearing. There's a lot of characters in this movie that I'm like,

we just don't know enough about them. I would include Becky and that we don't really know what her background is, and there were a few opportunities to provide that context that just doesn't. I was so frustrated in the scene where they're on the you know, they're talking through like the wall in the attic and they're talking about how um Sarah mrs India, Like this would be a great time for Sarah to ask Becky, like what is your background?

She does not do that, and we never we like we're given very little information about Becky's background, which and I mean even less for the Indian man and and and also mis mentioned, like we don't really know like who what have pened? Why is she? I don't know if I want to know any more about mis mentioned. I'd been going really I've been going back forth about it a lot because on the one hand, and like, well, maybe there was like a thing with Sarah's mother because

we know Sarah's mother went there. Maybe that's like she has like this ingrained like And on the other hand, like this movie is doing something that I wish more movies would do, which is tell me less. There's something great about being able to fill gaps in a movie.

It doesn't quite work for TV shows and were eight hours of content there, But when we have like ninety tight minutes and you're just exploring people being themselves in these moments, it's it's really intriguing to start wondering about it, Like because that dad line really triggered her, Like that actor got to make such great choices based entirely on just where she wanted to take that character. She's like she was in the Beatles. Help people think that maybe

eleanor Rigby was named after her. I couldn't find any backup information on that. Paul McCartney did an interview with g Q I think maybe last year where he explains like where these songs came from. He describes eleanor Rigby as a song about World War Two widows that he like grew up with in the projects in London, and it's a song dedicated to them and how their lives never quite got right. But her name is Eleanor she was in help maybe. But she also has like all

these cool, like weird roles. She plays a lot of like witches and weird old people, and I think to get such a she's so cool and she's alive, and now I'm like trying to check her down and try into a series on like aging Hollywood people. If you're an outlet who wants that, DM me let me know. Alice are like, well our readers like this, I'm like, yes, like what happened to years old? Like Dori's day just died and nobody got her final statements on how she

felt about her life. It's really annoying. I digress. Um, she's really cool if you know her, like tell her people love her still, but like to do such cool things like women who especially at a time where your option was getting married, or live a life of some kind of servitude, for her to live alone, for her to clearly not like that path she did some great things with She's British, but there are moments where you get like this New York accent that's very much like

a street New York like Brooklyn sounding. It comes out particuly when she's Sometimes Sarah is so eloquently said, but sometimes it's like Sarah with a hard eat. Yeah, like almost like a Southern like it's it's I really feel like the actress is just making really strong choices to be like, listen, this is a woman who rose up

a bit. I think she doing the math. It seems like she must have inherited the school from like a mother figure, because the school is called Mismntioneds like seminary for girls, but it was established in like the eighteen fifties. Or maybe she's two hundred years old and has found the fountain of you. She's a day walker. I love it, um, But yeah, you don't get to see characters like either of the meet Ums, especially in kids movies. They're either

totally awful or incredibly sweet. And to see an adult who has an issue with the kids. I don't know if you guys hang out any kids in my roommate. My other roommate is a school teacher and she's like somebod these kids are just bitches. She works in Beverly Hills, so I don't know how much money has like the financial train on things. But it's certainly your personality is there, and sometimes you just don't like a child. How does that manifest and how does that child deal with that?

Because she sar didn't do anything. I think Metam has very valid reasons for being like, this girl is foolish and she's gonna get steamrolled by life, and I'm going to be the hard person who's in her face telling her like it really imagines she can grow up. I get used to it. But she also so limiting, so

refined even in herself. That floating down the stairs, Oh my god, it's it's so creepy movies, especially older women, Like I don't think I've ever seen House on Haunted Hill was super movie for your show because it was written by lesbian, But it is like any floating lady just really creeps me out. And she just glad do this like weird daddy thing and then her like her frame is just like still floating, and I'm like, how she looks like she's Dolly tracking herself, Like how is

that humanly possible? It was? That was like one of the only things I remembered about the movie at all, was that very memorable, so freaky. It says a lot about her. She's clearly trained to be among high society, and I think she's dealing with if you look at the kids who she picks on. I think she's picking on kids who remind her somewhat of herself, of something that she shut down because the other girl Ermine Guard, damn name she used the Bumblebee girl and that nineties

music video. Yes, yes, she's so. That's the same actress who also did a really lovely job. She comes from. I'm guessing like an Irish cop father who rose through the ranks. Again, I have a lot of headcannon on

these characters. I love Erman Guards. She's so sweet, she's adorable, but mentioned picks on her a lot in class for not being able to do math, and she's like frustrated, and I think anything that reminds her of like low class or head in the clouds, she just cannot sad king at that part of herself or just like excessive naive, like naivete and kids seems to really bother her because like Sarah is very naive when she gets there and

then it's like la la la, here's my story. And she doesn't like that I feel like Ermine Garde sort of falls into that category as well, where she's yeah, she's like floatier and spacier and like mis mentioned, she's a realist. She's like, the world is gonna hurt you, and if it doesn't hurt you. I love that scene with when erman gard goes to the attic and it's like she's very upset and she's just like, wait, do

you want to be a way for it anymore? Like I was like, oh God, I had that interaction so much when I was like it save you're a girl, you've ever bared your soul to another girl in a very platonic way of like why are we not friends? I'm trying to understand. It gets you. I really loved

that scene. And then they have and then like Sarah and Becky have the knocking system, and I was like, oh, this is like a little girl like paradise of like secret coat bearing your soul the slumber parties where she's just telling her very factually and accurate and probably racist story, but the fact that they're like all like buried under the covers and like listening and very intrigued, and it's like there's there's a power in girl groups that and

especially I think if you're isolated the way they are, they don't have any agency over there, like daily activities, and so they're sort of very much bound to each other um in the system. And it's still it's weird to me that we don't have more stories about this because it's such a defining point for like every woman. You would think that there would be I mean, I want to see more stories. I would buy tickets to see more stories like this. I mean, there's so few.

It's it's wild how few there are. And like the Sister, like the whole school kind of has this like subtle ish arc where at the beginning you have lotty like not questioning anything and just being like, oh, well this is the way things are, of course. And and then they also have like the girls in the school, even

the ones don't know as well. By the end, they're all like down to do this like locket operation, and they've made the decision that they're going to support each other and not just like I'm getting there's like an Ocean's eight sequence where they like the hell out of this locket. Yeah, they get the locket back and oh it's so and then like Becky gets like her big moment where she makes a noise in front of people

that look like I thought it's a mouse. They just mentioned it hits the door and east Ship, and we're like, yeah, that's great. It's just so perfect. It's so sweet and charming and Becky's journey. As much as I think that she could have been a more central figure, what we do get out of her it's so like great, Like there's if you're black, you care about your hairline and how kids are represented in films is really important to me. And it was frustrating at first to be like, man,

this girl's hair is so messy. That's so frustrated by it.

But the more I watched the film and and again watch the art that all of these girls get, it's like she didn't have anybody who cares for her right, Like she's clearly somewhat depressed, and how could you not be being surrounded by girls your age and not being allowed to have any kind of interaction with them that even this girl just looking at her is like wow, And you get like even the reversal of the moment when Sarah kind of storms in on Becky to be

like Sarah in her again very naive mine. It's like I don't, like, just go make friends, and Becky like, who the hell are you doing? Like you cannot be in my room and we are both gonna get in so much trouble. Please leave. Um. She stands up for herself that a way I think when you get it, here's what if you get a token black character. So often they are just treated very much like side characters.

And for Becky to get not just a name, not just a role, but like to be taken with her at the end, and her dress looks so good and her hair it's so perfect, and she's like they're very much treated as equals, like even though it's like magical and stilly, how they get that breakfast, like they both get the same shoes, which I like, always live and that kind of stuff like I have, like Susie Carmichael

Becky in this movie. Yeah, as as far as like talking with my white peers about like black representation under the age of twelve, this is little were kind of it as who they knew and so to see like both of those characters sort of rise and be powerful in their own rights. And like Becky literally finds her voice by screaming, and you know it's to help these other chump white girls. You didn't really get her a lot, but do you know a lot of else to work with? Um?

And I man, I like it still, even though it's problematic, even though it's very much a signal of how desperate I was for representation and any of the things I was watching. So you don't get black girls in period pieces. I'm obsessed with period pieces. I'm obsessed with fantasy. And so this's like Becky always has like a special place in my heart. She's awesome. That's that I do like. I love Sarah and Becky's scenes together are very sweet

and very just like it's so nice. Yeah, I have a question, Yeah, um, do you think this is a white savior story? Oh? I mean yeah, if you're just looking, Becky isn't given enough to do to really save herself, and she doesn't really seem to ever desire more. We again, like you guys said, we don't really know much about her life outside of this situation. There's not even a

lot of like poor shadow. I mean that would require a lot for an actress too of that age to be more about her outside of what's in the text. So yeah, it is a white savior story. I like it. Damn it. This is so hard. I always really analyzing this movie is much more difficult than just sitting back

and enjoying it. Like, no, it's just whimsical and like the guy who had Children of the Men with the snow scene and it doesn't cry, it's so pretty um what we think about a context, you're like, dang ish, use I don't, I mean, And a lot of those problems seem to be it's like a lot of it. I want to blame a lot of it on Francis Hodgson Burnett because that's like so built into the story and she has such a bad track record with like

writing non white characters at all. But with with adaptations, it's like there was room in this movie for their for us to know more about Becky. They're just was This is Alphonso Crels first studio film in America, so we have two Mexican tours essentially in Lebitsky and Craylon coming up to do their first big Precious also Emmanuel's first big studio film, so I know that they they were kind of felt free in in the visual representation

because that's why they got hired. But outside of that, I'm not sure like how much agency they felt they had to imbue dark skinned characters with storylines. And to be fair, that never seems to be Alfonso's sort of bad either. I don't think he really cares about I mean, he's out there darkning Harry Potter movies. Yeah, oh yeah, and we just did a Roma, which is great but also has a lot of colorism issues if you want

to talk to indigenous Latino X women about that. So yeah, it definitely I think if it were made today, we would demand much more out of it as a film. Yeah, did you know that this movie failed spectacularly at the box off didn't yet had a seventeen million dollar budget, only made ten million dollars? What were we doing in? I know, it's like it's I feel like, for the like year it came out, this is you're not going

to get much better. To be fair, though, I my parents were big movie buffs, were at the movie theater a lot. I did not see this until home VHS, saying so, yeah, we might have been part of them. I'm sure my dad was like, first, I'm not sitting through any princesses movies and go yourselves. And then I have no idea what my mom was doing. This is totally a per alley. That's interesting. Was it a Christmas release? Do you remember the release date? Really? It was released

in May? It was really what that's the problem. Okay, if we go back, we talked to the add people, be like, this is a Christmas season film. Get the hearts warm. We like Dickens era stuff. It vaguely looks like Christmas in this weird, indescribable way because it's half it's green, which is half of Christmas color. Can we talk about Alfonso and green. He's really weird for green.

He loves green. Um, I was okay. So when we were watching this with Coula, we were all like, the green and the gold, there's got to be some symbolism here. I read some like hokey blog posts that posited some theories, none of them quite lined up, and I was like, okay, well maybe he talked about it, like maybe there is. I was like, is this in the book? Is it? Is it him? Like? I don't know what? And the the answer is is puzzling which and it is simply

that Alfonso loves green. That's it. Like there are quotes from him there. There is like a great interview done with the costume designer of this movie, Judyana Makovsky, right when this movie came out, and apparently they had like a big argument about how he was like, I only want green. Nothing cannot be green. She's like I can't

do that. She's like, I will quit if you make me make everything she did do that green on Green school Girl before the clothes are green, the building that the school is in his green, the shots of like anything happening in the kitchen, there's so much lettuce and green apples in the frame, Like are we getting all this money to buy all of this fresh produce? That very suspect to me. I was like, no, no, you didn't buy that at the New York Market. We saw

her just shopping at Yeah so so. And then the quote like a year later, I guess he was asked about this directly in a New York Times interview and he says, quote, I have to say green is the only color I understand. I can really frame it, I know how to work with it. I see other colors and they feel alien. I cannot give you a rational explanit. I love that it's just my art. When you please just watch it or don't, it's so like, I just

don't care. I'm obsessed with the especially in this era when you've got that like weird Emerald marble Green a lot, so it's like golden white flext but then you're also dealing with a lot of natural greens. And I think coming from the India set scenes to here, this looks like such a polished like studio film. It's like like a thirty style like studio like when they're doing the kind of it's not c g I yet special effects. Visual effects is what we would have called it back

in the day. That freaky which if you, oh my gosh, there's an Alec Baldwin film, we're a similar demon creature like that comes up and I'm like, did they borrow things from each other? Um? I love it. I love all of the Green movie. And it's like a living like urban jungle, and I feel like now that urban jungle is really in as a style choice, like looping back,

I really like. I mean, it's always because we get so like I mean, the point of the show is to be in the weeds and like really analyze everything, and then sometimes you do just like Nope, there's no reason, and that is so comforting. You're like, great, everything is chaos. Alfonso likes green. That's why I don't look for meaning in anything. Yeah, that's why words ending the show today. Something I wanted to talk about is that a big deal is made in this movie about the idea that

all girls and all women are princesses. This, I think can be seen as an empowering message for the young girls who are seeing this movie, who this movie is targeted to, because it's basically saying all girls have value. But I also think that the connotation behind the word princess invokes like a certain image and certain idea blond with giant blue eyes, perfect man and like Sarah down to it. I mean, like all like all canonical princesses

does not have a mother sound exactly princess tropes. And yeah, so this like idea of like the princess type has historically not been empowering, and largely because what media has like put forth about what a princess is basically every Disney movie pre two thousand today, because like, princesses always end up with a prince or a man. In general, they rarely have a storyline that's anything besides a romantic relationship. They are largely siss white, able bodied girls or women.

They are rich and from the highest socio economic class. Uh, they rarely have a mom or really any female relationships to speak us. So it's a lot of diming in this movie sort of place. So that yeah, against type a lot too. If we think about just the last one you said doesn't have a lot of female friends, She's only got lady friends. Um, she doesn't have a mom,

but yes, has a lot of girlfriends. And then if we look at the fact that who else she sort of inspires or shows to be princess, not just Becky who she takes with her at the end, and they again looking like sisters, like they belong together, same costuming and all of that. You also get the same thing with Amelia, who is like the plump lady who would definitely have been considered past her time. This the milkman is kind of hot. They actually had chemistry, which I

get really upset when plus size women. As a plus size woman, when women get cast against guys who are clearly not into them, I'm like, listen, casting, we gotta do better, like find better actors. You don't really have to be in love. Lots of actors are not. I need to see like the chemistry otherwise I'm not believing it. Um, they clearly were into that whole like two second milk exchange. I think that's what like hot, Yeah, it's oh my gosh, it's so steep, and she's like, I'm just gonna wait.

He's definitely coming back, and then she just like holds onto the thing and it's like, don't go, like we are connecting. You know, this all kinds of like glorious sexual time and from the get go, like Sarah sees, all of them is equal. So I think it a getting placed into our earlier issue of naivete. You know, how much do we believe that a girl of her status, who looks like she does, who has all the advantages in the world, truly believes that everyone is treated equally

in the film? She does, And again, because she does, it just justifies that villainary. More like, if we keep following back into that idea of Okay, probably not, but maybe she's the exception. You can kind of I can bridge the gap I can bridge the divide. Yeah, I feel the same. I mean, I I totally agree with all of I mean, the concept of a princess in culture is like flawed and like, right up until today,

I think that. But I just felt like the way that she uses the word princess, like her meaning of it is a little bit different. Like I didn't think that she was saying like, oh, everyone is like rapunzela. I felt like she was the way that Sarah was using it. And I don't even know if this is the way that Davos meant it when she said it to her, but the way that she interprets it, I thought was like saying, like a princess as like worthy

and like worthy respect. And yeah, one of them even follows that logic too, and like I really love the idea that. Again, as wrong as the stories were, the way they were used as devices to inflict and impact her life were really interesting. Like when she's first sent to the attic, she creates a circle of safety like the one from the story to protect herself. She gives she takes the same advice she gave not Lillian the other The little girl cries, she gets hurt, the same vice.

You know, just because I don't know, just because I can't hear them, doesn't mean they can't hear me. And so she starts calling out to her father. But then we get that really great emotional exchange where she's in the street and like some boy, out of the kindness of his his naive heart, gives her a coin. The mother is like, nope, that's awful. Look, she's just followed us. She's trying to give the coin back. She's like, I

don't want it, I don't need it. I'm okay. Now she has the money, so she bites herself, like what I believe is the cross hot bun or kind of like it is a hot, delicious tree, and she is cold, and she has been working all day. She had to fight a boy to keep the stuff in her basket and right, and she's about to eat it. She sees another girl who are clearly having much worse lives than her, Like they're trying to sell flowers somewhere where they got

these yellow roses in the middle of winter. I have a questions, but they have them, and they're selling them, And so she gives it to that girl. That girl's mother is like, make sure this girl gets a flower. Don't let her go without it. She in turn gives the flower to the old guy who just found out he lost his son. And when she gets a flower, she calls her a princess. She says, for the princess. And so I think this idea of being a princess

not being about having money. She was a princess even when she hit her lowest point, even when she didn't have anything like it was still her ability to just be kind and giving. And again it's just, oh man, it's really hard in the world, being an adult and living in this world to be like, yeah, none of this happens. But if you want to enter a land of like make believe and and believe in like the quality and good in children who have not yet been corrupted, Wow,

it's impactful. I mean the way that Sarah uses like something I was like thinking about through the movie is I feel like, you know, like we talk a lot about privilege, and I feel like it's generally used as a negative term, but I think Sarah is in some ways. There are there are ways where you're like, oh, this is getting a little white savior, this is getting a little like it's a very delicate balance of like how

to write one of these characters well. But for the most part, I thought that the way that Sarah used her privilege and that she clearly has was setting a relatively good example of just like she does use her privilege while she still has money and fancy stuff, she uses it to help people. And then and then when she doesn't have much, she you know, she still has a fair amount of privilege and still tries to all people.

So it maybe wish I had seen this movie when I when I was younger, because it's you know, it's like, if you do have a protagonist that has a lot of privilege, then like, you know, go to great lengths to show how you can use your privileges. Yeah, I agree there. To me, there are two kind of main

takeaways from this movie that are potentially conflicting. But one is that like, Sarah is a princess because she is kind and because she is generous and nice to everyone, and she isn't afraid to challenge the oppressive systems that are in place. The other takeaway is that everything will be fine as long as the loved ones you thought were dead are actually still alive. And you are still very rich, right, I mean her like return to richness and like that vague thing that like Davos at the end,

it's like, yeah, I told them I wasn't dead. Got all my ship bocks, like okay. I do wonder how the film would have turned out if either her dad never got his memory back or he just wasn't there and had died in the war. Because she has no motivated It's not like she's motivated to go find her father, like she is just going to escape. And before she escaped, she turns back and she's like, I'm coming back for you.

And there's a small part of me that really wants to believe this girl as tough as hell and would have figured a way out in New York and probably not kept all of that like glorious sweetness about her, but maybe would have found a way to to survive and space for her and her friend. It would have been hard. As listen, someone right the alternate Universe fantasy fiction and sent it to me. These girls got to just survive on their own, and they're like amazing and

tough and scrapping. They start a small business there. I liked one of my favorite parts of this movie was during the escape part, the dais X plank that appears a perfectly measured plank to get from one window to the other. And I like went back to because we watched it last night with Paula VI and then when I watched it again this morning, I'm like, maybe that maybe the plank is set up, maybe it's been there the whole time. But she, like Sarah just turns to

Becky and he's like, help me get this board. I was like, what the board is, Sarah floor. I thought it was going to be the green like thing that moves in between their walls. It's like they have like a loose kind of plank. I thought she was gonna be like, just snap that off and let me climb across. This the thing that connects us, launching us into a new life. I don't know something, but it was not.

It just maybe the magical indianman who lives next door foresaw this would all happen and gave her the plank whenever he was like decorating the room and like setting up this huge banquet for them. Oh, so my theory. He was like, I actually, he's like he set everything up really quietly and like when does he know he sees Sarah? He saw her on the Titanic like boat that they come to America from India on. He saw them like daughter and father dancing together. He knows their relationship.

He knows that Daddy is sitting ten feet away. He also saw Daddy Davos give Sarah a heart shaped necklace, not on like what happens in Titanic, but so yeah, he knows. He's like this omniscient guy a lot of these issues if we had just seen him watch dude come into the building with his daughter, because like if if he is aware of like, oh, this guy looks like the same dude that dropped the daughter off of the school, Well you should take him in there, because

you have the means to do so. If you can rewatch this movie thinking about this guy is just playing the ship out of everyone around him. It is wildly more entertaining. I feel like it is. Yeah, It's just I don't know. With the plank and the ending, it like it gets so fantasy at the end that I'm like, I I mean, I'm I'm happy to accept, like and everything worked out like happily ever after, Sure, Davos is alive. Sure, you know, like why why not? Something I did like

though that we haven't talked about yet. It's like the way that grief is portrayed in this movie I thought was really cool and not something you get to see in kids movies at all, or especially like played in like I thought, like a pretty thoughtful way, because you all you were saying earlier, like it's clear that all these kids are missing their parents and then in the case of Lottie and then later Sarah, are actually their parents aren't coming back for them, and like seeing that

play out in different ways. With Lottie, it's just the screaming fits in front of the music box, or like Sarah gets, like I mean, it's like really devastating to watch how depressed she gets. She's like there is no magic, right, Yeah,

she's very clearly going through the depression phase of grief. Yeah, and like just the way that she like sort of it's just sort of SAPs all the like positive energy out of her, and then it's sort of then the young girls that she knows that like lift her back up and and so I just I really thought that it was like a cool, thoughtful presentation of grief, and again it's like all that is sort of undone at the end where you're like you didn't have to grieve.

Daddy was across sister, but the way I was presented but I thought was like was lovely. And also I just found out on Wikipedia dot organ ever heard of it that the Chimney Sweep as Alfonso Korn's son. Yes, or he was so good. He was so good. And when you talk about the girl, uh, Lisa Matthews is the girl that places there. She comes from like a billionaire family from Chicago, which explains the American accent. She's

like a prince great yes great. Actress went on to do Air Force One played uh, oh my gosh, Harrison Ford's daughter say solo. But I'm like that's not right, Uh play his daughter. She did one more movie after that, not a successful but now she like runs like a Hedge Fune company that like gives money to sub Saharan Africa. Is a jillionaire and like we're I mean, her family owns Hyatt hotels and we know about families that own hotel chains. It always ends well, Uh, they own the

Royal Caribbean cruise Line. They own the TransUnion credit bureau. She's from like a lot of money. So basically she was like, I want to be an actor, and then everyone was like, okay, you're an actor now, great, a really good child actress. I don't know if it just didn't transition as an adult or she was like, Oh, I have money, I don't have to do this. Good, do something else. She married a hot guy who kind of looks like Jamie Lanister, like like an average Jamie Lanister.

You know, they live in Austin. It's like it's rich people like I do. It's funny. I'm really glad that she is like she like, or at least was like a very talented child actress, because I'm like, the second I was like started reading about her, I was like, oh, she was like, Dad, wouldn't it be cool if I was a movie star And he was like, yeah, sure, okay, I don't care. Businesses to run multiple Also, Camilla Bell is in this movie, which one was Kamilla Bell Jane,

I don't know one of the girls like that. I hope it was the girl. Wait a minute, was she the girl who told Lavinia like, I don't care what you're doing. I want to listen to these stories. Oh, I hope, So I don't know. I was like, I don't really remember. And there's two Jane, Betsy and Ruth are characters that I I'm assuming that they were all girls at the school, but I have no idea they were hanging out in the background. I like that it was a small group of girls and they were not

running through child actors. They're like, no, this is the group. They're here to deal with it, um. And I also like the staging for this. I would be so curious about, like what is it like to direct that many kids, because they talked to a bunch of stars from Susanne and they're like, so there were six kids and they were a lot like kind cool kids, but there must

have been so many like child wranglers on. So I mean you get to think that like Alfonso Korn has to just work well with children, because it's like, I mean this movie especially, there's basically only children, and he manages to get like some really impressive performances out of kids, which is like a testament just as much to him as it is to them. And then you know he like he tamed Rupert Grant or whatever. Later like he knows how to work with child actors. I mean we're

notoriously I love up. I have a question them forever. Is he a good actor? I mean, I don't know. I like his new comedies, his Little Big TV show. I think they're adorable and definitely like he is lean his second act. Yeah, well, I mean also like and oh my god, what's his name? Daniel Radcliffe was a bad actor in the first two Harry Potter movies and then gets pretty good in a Prisoner of Azkaban. I'm sure that Emma was like, listen, we can get this together.

She was like, let's just try some exercises. They all, I feel like they all to level up in the third one kind of yeah, And by the fourth one we're really just flying, which for me was perfect. The fourth book is my favorite, and I was like, here we go, and then ours comes in. My heart is really softening. Terry Potter as I'm so glad to hear that. Um, can we go back to Amelia really quick? And I would like to pose a question, how do you feel

the representation of bigger women is in this movie? Like all of the representation, we got so close. They did not let a fat Joe slip until her final moment, and I was livid. I was like, guys, we did so good. She was just a lady. She fell in love. None of the kids were like judging or making faces behind her, like it was a polished perfect and then they're like throw the suitcases at the guy in the land on top of them because that's what sells, Like damn,

that was just so exciting there. It was. I mean, I feel like she her character in general, and I couldn't really tell how much it was, like whether it was a comment on what she looked like at all, but like she was the slap stickiest of the people at the school. Because it's like anytime someone would make a loud noise, it would be like like she would. She she had big physical reactions to things, responsible for the crying girl, which was so even she's conspired with

Satan cursed me um. But I liked, I mean, I liked the scene with Sarah and Amelia on the staircase. I thought that was another like lovely little Sarah moment of like ne're worthy of love and she was like Amelia is like I hate children out of here. So that's where I think that they film doesn't like it's like good in two ways and the bad and three like. I think they do a really good job of subverting

expectations fat women are supposed to like love kids. They're like, you're the natural caregivers, you have the tits like make it work, um, And so for her to like for the whole time just be like, I'm really not, I don't know how to, don't want to, would rather not be here. I thought's interesting for a character like her. I think that, yeah, putting her in a slapstick position, certainly,

I don't know. I feel weird about it because if it was two men running an all boys school, we most likely would have the exact same dynamic, you know, like a tall, thin person and like a shorter, fatter person. Has been like comedy like how we make it work in partnerships for so long. Visually, Um, I'll say this again, we're desperate for representation. We're grasping to what we have. This movie goes above and beyond what most representations at

the time where. And I think if you look at it in a time period capsule, that way, you can be like, Okay, I can value what we were aiming for even if if it came out today, we wouldn't anywhere near reach our standards of excellence and at least, I mean, you do know more about Amelia than you know about miss Minchin, Like she has more of like we know more about her personal life and like her feelings and thoughts and context for them than for her sister.

Of the main thing or one of the main things that you know about Amelia is her like fawning over a man. That's true, I mean, but we also know she hates her job, like I don't know, we see her as a person who like, Okay, so since we've been Game of Throne saying, just batting it in over the place, my girl, brand A Tarth gets late, like not anywhere on her to do list, right, but she finds herself falling for a guy. Then next day, dude's like, so I'm actually still in love with my sister. I

gotta go back home and deal with that. And she cries, and it's like the whole internet like it's having like a very divided meltdown of whether like these tears are okay. I think when you put women who present differ really in situations of love and allow them to be soft that it's a blessing because I know certainly I didn't see a lot of that growing up. Like if you were tough, you were just tough all the way through and no man could ever get to you, and you

did not need love. That's not like a realistic like situation for many people. Some people do desire love, and I don't think that I should always fall back to that. And I do think for both Brianne and for Amelia that there were opportunities for better representation. That being said, Like Amelia got her dude, like she like got to fall in love, and it was something that that character

clearly wouldn't allow herself to think about before. And so to see her be in love, to see her come to terms of that, and then to see her go for it, like, that's a cool story arc that frequent and for the most part not be made fun of for it. Uh think it's really beautiful. Really had to squeeze it in, didn't you help yourself? That's a great point. Yeah, I am also, and let me know what your thoughts are on this. But um, the way that it is characterized is, I mean, most of the girls at this

school are very slim, Guard is a little bigger. She seems to be characterized, at least in the beginning, as like kind of a more pathetic I was worried about that tropes like sleeping in of like token chubby girl who all the other girls are going to make fun of. But then the movie, I don't know, I mean it kind of likes to flash her out more almost any other. I don't know that's true. I mean she she has only picked on by one girl, the girl who picks

on literally everybody. So there's that point. I think she is shy, but then they make it not about her body but about her worry that she's not going to please her father and that man. That conversation also brais me. When she she's talks to Sarah about her dad and she was like, you know, he doesn't like being here. He's like, well why would she? He sent you to some place he doesn't like to be and she's like, well, he wants me to fit in and he doesn't feel

he can fit in. And to you such kid words for such big grown up ideas of like I want better for you, but also I hate this police and if I become this do we not have a relationship anymore, and she doesn't have any of the words to describe all the things she's feeling, but she's trying, and it

is so beautiful. And so I think again, the way the film lets in these little contexts, and the fact that it doesn't give you the answers to everything, it allows for better headcanon representation than maybe what the film's intentions were. I'm gonna keep clinging to it. That's what I had. I stand like, I I wish she could have I wish she could have gone with Sarah and Becky too, because she had a dad. But I also caught myself thinking about the exact take erman Gard with you.

She also needs liberation. Yeah, and then her dad is proud of her that she can speak French. So that was nice to see. Yeah, And in general, I mean all the what is this man's role in colonialism? Aside?

I liked the relationship between Sarah and her dad. I thought it was like very it was nice to see, you know, just like a positive relationship between a father and I feel like so often, even in movies about princesses, the father and the daughter are at odds about every expectations of her, or like it was nice to just have like the presentation of I mean, he says it in the first scene when the only scene where they're actually in India, where he's just like, I think you

can be anything you want to be, or like it's just a very like if you wrote out like stock nice Daddy Davos character, it would be this, and I thought, I thought that was like lovely and gives her a lot of agency to to speak on her own behalf to like in the when they're in the classroom and the teachers like, yeah, you can't wear jewelry, and she like looks her dad and he's like, what do you want to do kids, because like, yeah, I do insist

on keeping it. And before then he just he always allows her this sort of space to just be herself, so that again it's sort of believable that she feels sort of like a little adult because she you know, she's the one constantly comforting him already, it's like, what do you do rememorizing me by heart? She's like, I know you by her Daddy, I'm gonna be okay, You've got to go to war because she his wife. That's get a little promised me. At points, I'm like, yikes,

maybe dad needs to find a wife. Like she's taking on but overall charming. And I don't know if you guys are Daddy's girls either, and I certainly amps are very tight. But he would never allow me to be a princess. He was like, I don't know what any of that garbage is, but take that too on time, move the lawn like some dishes, and maybe we'll like watch a movie after work at the hockey rank, Jamie.

But it is nice to see you, like a single dad, like be able to like connect with his daughter in a in a way that we usually don't see in movies because usually I'm thinking of like, um, a league of their own. We're like the one dad, like the single dad raised his daughter like a boy basically because he's like I don't know how to do girls stuff. So she boyd now I am dad. We don't know what to dad dode but yeah, so it's like he's like embracing the femininity that she wants to display at

that time in her life. And he's like, yeah, you are our princess, and yeah, but you can be whatever you want to be. Yeah. It was really it warmed my frigid heart. I thought it was so nice. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? I will say that in the alleyway, when um we're seeing the chimney sweep, there is a cat. That cat has eight nipple? Can we also love Daddy Davos to death? But how amazing would Freddie Wilina have been in the dead role?

He would have been. I mean he used British, so he's very kind you. I've like, maybe I just want to hear him say you're a little princess. Maybe I just want that audio clip out there in the world. I don't know. He would have been incredible in that role. Like genuinely, I hope he was approached and was like, sorry, I'm preparing for Spider Man two ten years from now. He was like, I need a long time to figure out this role. I mean, I have to play Dot.

And in the same year was that when Like Species came out. Okay, this is actually a critical part of the show. What was he in What was he doing? Maybe he was doing theater, Okay, he was in something called Nervous Energy, he was in something called Hideaway, he was in something called Scorpion Spring. He was in something called dead Man. He was in something called the Perez Family Man. He wasn't something called the Steel. He wasn't species that year. Yeah, so you know he apparently he

had tons of ship very busy. My goodness, damn paying the bills in nine Molina, so many questions about where this Molina of such a god. He's just so handsome. I will not deny. And then and then we later found out also woke because i'minist icon. Yes, I mean, did you see that scary kaleidoscope Vagina? He posted? Loved it, hated it, I don't know. It was the ultimate older gentleman ally move where you're like, this is actually a

bit much. But I appreciate where you're coming from seeing my Laurence Fishburn obsession, and I really value and appreciate your love of Molina. I hope Molina and Fishburn are friends. I feel like they're like they're such character actors. I just assume all character actors are friends. Why wouldn't they be like the same talent bond over it? True, fish Brandon, Melina, it's better than most of the candidates we have. We have to overlook that Alfa Millina is fully British. Hey,

speaking of talking about men or not. Does this movie pass the backtel tests all over the damn place? It does. Yes, many combos, many different conversations. Hard yes on that. Yeah, let's write it on our nipple scale five nipples based on its representation and portrayal of women. I think I'm going to go like three and a half. I feel like we have fully thanked when its to nipples at this point. Yeah, because there's a lot of good things that this movie is doing. You know, it's a very

female driven story. It shows a young girl like using the privilege that she has to empower other people, specifically Becky, and that does get into you know, white savior territory. And you know there are some like mean girl characters who seem to be mean for no reason or like their characterization is kind of glossed over. But you have enough other different personality types and the other girls that it's not at all like, oh, all girls are pitted

against each other anything like that. So you have like, what are several very healthy relationships between girls. So that is very nice to see. There are some weird things about how Indian culture and people are depicted thing and and triple a million thanks to Paula v for uh for giving us some contexts for that. She'll be back for a dark Night episode Watch Out every Yes, thank

you so much to her for her insight. And then yeah, other little things here and there where you know, there's like that fat joke that they didn't need to do and then they did it, you know, different things like that. But yeah, I would say a solid three and a half. I'll give one nipple to Guard, I'll give one nipple to Amelia, mentioned I'll give my remaining one and a half nipples to Becky. Yeah, I'm going to go three and a half as well. Uh, for basically all the reasons.

I mean, there's a lot of examples that I think we've talked about at this point of things getting close and then either petering out at the end, or like with Amelia, like you're like, oh, we've got we've got a story arc for a fat character and it's like but then it's sold out at the last minute, or like there's a lot of little examples of that, Like there's no excuse adaptation wise that we shouldn't know more about Becky and that she shouldn't be like grounded in

her own story. It would only help literally everything, um, everything that Francis Hodgson Burnett put pen to paper on

in regards to India is cuckoo. And uh, there's a lot of bad tropes that play there that again, like adaptation wise and this movie, it should be mentioned was there there are two writers, one of them as a woman, which is you know, good and and never happens, so that's positive, but there were there were a lot of issues with the source material that could have been improved upon in the adaptation that just didn't happen, which is disappointing because it is a beautiful movie with a lot

of great messages and anytime there's like a group of girls who are like supporting each other and it's not antagonistic, and even when it is, it's resolved, and like it just felt it felt very wholesome and lovely and I liked it. I like that and I like that there's no reason the green, And honestly, just like I had such an exhale and I was like, I'm in as much as I love picking things to death, what really

if that there was no reason for the green? I would have explained it nothing, you know, it would have been terrible in the esplanation other than I just wanted it that way. You would have been like, I don't need any of this, like David and Dvy explaining things after game of throws, like that's not why any of the things happened. And if it is, I'm so disappointed and just there. It's just what it is. And so to all you wee blye bloggers out there fifteen years ago,

you were wrong. It's about fucking nothing. So I love I mean, yeah, three and a half nips. I'll give two to Becky, one to Amelia, and then I'll give the last half to Alfonso's son, a little sweep set. I will also go through and a half because it just feels right. It's just it's appropriate. I'm just gonna give all of mine to Becky, literally, all the love and joy. I've never seen a person of color in

a historical drama before this. I remember that I was young, and then when I did, it was so often slavery. Amasad came out, and long after this saw that theaters horrifying, really triggering experience. Don't take your eight year old to see it, um, and she just so so full of love and trying and just a desire to make a connection. And girl I could identify many many A year later in seven, when I started my first grade year, it was horrible. Um, but Becky and depictions of Becky we're great.

And I also want to thank you guys because I always get on my dad about watching old movies, but like, doesn't this bother you? Look at these racist depictions, like these are the movies of my childhood. How dare you try to rip them away? And I'm like old man, so stupid defending this movie like it's my life, right, because no, it's fine, everything's cool, like closs over it to the good stuff. Um. And so you know now we're close, sir. Yeah, I understand his perspective. So yeah,

oh well, thank you so much for joining us. And wherein Yes, go to Twitter. I live there at least sixteen hours a day. You'll be able to contact me on Twitter's at Joel Monique or um. If you're so inclined, you could go to I G. I'm trying to Instagram story more. I don't. It's not intuitive for me, but that's Joel underscore. Bonique also visit me over at paste am Pajaibo, where I do the weekly content, the movies and the TV's and all the fun stuff. Awesome, amazing.

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