294: Should You Apply for Jobs During Bar Prep? (w/Sadie Jones)

Welcome back to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast. Today, we're excited to have ex-BigLaw recruiter Sadie Jones here with us to talk about job hunting during bar prep. Your Bar Exam Toolbox host today is Alison Monahan, and typically, I'm with Lee Burgess. We're here to demystify the bar exam experience, so that you can study effectively, stay sane, and hopefully pass and move on with your life.

Thanks for having me back.

Oh, my pleasure. Well, this was actually based on a listener's question, and we thought it was a really good topic because it's actually a bit tricky. What do you think about applying for jobs while studying for the bar exam?

I'll be honest, it is not an ideal situation, and I agree, it's sort of a tricky situation, because you need to be focused on your bar prep, because that's always going to be the most important thing, in the same way that I tell law students, "You need to focus on your grades, versus applying for jobs." So, it's not for everybody, but I also think that there are certain situations where you need to be doing it at the same time. And you're just going to have to be honest about it also.

Yeah. There are a lot of questions that people kind of get worked up about, because oftentimes, this is people who are applying for jobs after failing the bar, and they're studying again. So, you got out of school, you took the bar, you thought that you were going to pass. So maybe you waited to really focus on the job hunt until after you took the test. So maybe you've even been applying and then you got your results, and your results were not passing.

Or I think you also might be a 3L who didn't get a job offer, so you're also in a difficult situation, because obviously it's easier to already have the job offer, even though they don't know you're going to pass the bar either if you already had the job offer,

right? Well, that's a whole different question, because then those people end up in a situation where they get one more chance and if they don't pass, they're going to lose the job. So, nobody's really in a great situation.

Yeah, I was going to say don't think it's so easy for everybody else too, because they have a lot of pressure if they feel like they absolutely have to pass this one to keep this amazing job that they got. So, there's pressure for everybody. But if you're in this situation - you didn't have that set job while studying for the bar, you don't have anyone paying for it that's a lot of pressure too. The thing is, they know what's going on, generally.

Yeah. Sometimes I think people get really worked up about, "Well, what if I don't tell people I'm taking the bar, and then I get an offer and they want me to start like right before the exam?" And I'm like, "Well, that's probably just not a great position to be in." I'm not saying you have to splash it on your resume that, "Hey, I didn't pass the bar the first time I took it, so now I'm studying again." But if somebody asks you directly, I think you should tell them.

I agree with you. And I am always very ethical about things, and I never think you should lie. I think it's okay to say, "I am taking the February, whatever, 2025 exam." I agree with you, you don't need to directly say you failed, unless they ask.

Right.

That's not necessary. They probably will ask. Or they'll

just assume. I Yeah,

exactly. So, that is what it is. But I would be upfront with that. You cannot start a job in January; then there's no point in taking the February exam. That just seems like a disaster. I don't really think they would ask. I don't think that would make sense for them either, generally. So, there might be other great things on your resume. There may be something great about this job that makes worth taking the risk that you haven't taken or passed the bar exam.

Well, and I think a lot of people will basically say that to some extent and say, "We might be interested in you, but we need your bar results." And it all kind of goes back to what you alluded to at the beginning, which is, if you're really seriously studying for the bar exam, that needs to be the highest priority.

I agree with you. I think networking is probably the best thing to do in this situation, because I think that's where you could get people to like you and want to revisit this when you get your results. I think it's much more likely they're going to say "when we get your results" than "after you finish the exam", like we just talked about, because they want you to have passed also.

Right. And I think at that point, at least you don't have to focus on the exam itself. So, at least you have more time that you could start applying places, just with the expectation that if it's an actual JD-required position, they're probably not going to say "yes" until you can present your JD and bar results and you are fully qualified as an attorney.

So, this was what the other thing I was going to say. And obviously this depends on where you're at, but maybe you want to look at jobs that don't require the bar, while still you're going to take it and you know down the line you want a job that requires the bar. But maybe you say to yourself, "I'm going to apply to those now and I'm going to take a job that doesn't require the bar now, because I need a job or I need the money." Hopefully, your law school degree will still help you.

Yeah, I think that's right. I think people have to be a little realistic about getting a job that requires them to be barred when they're not actually barred. I mean, just because of the way the system is structured, firms particularly will take a chance on people who are summer associates and give them a job offer with the expectation they will pass the exam.

And maybe there is a small firm where they'll hire you to do something that's going to be lower level and it's going to pay less. But maybe your JD will help you and you can do some research and learn some things, and then make some contacts and maybe they will give you the real associate job later. So I think that's a possibility.

Yeah, exactly. You can essentially be like a glorified paralegal for somebody with the expectation that, "Well, when you pass, we can re-evaluate your role." You just don't know what's out there. I think sometimes when you've just graduated, it's easy to fall into the trap of like, "Oh well, if I can't do X, then there's no point in doing anything." But really, anything is better than nothing.

Yeah. I think that sometimes people say things and you just think, "Okay, you can't have all those things."

Right. We have to choose which of these is going to be the focus. So, if you really truly need the money... And we've had students that are absolutely in that situation, where they're like, "I need to work to pay my bills." But they didn't try to study for the bar and get a tutor and all of that on top of it.

And it's just a waste of money also to be not fully studying and all over the place and probably not passing that bar and having to do it again. It's like, why bother? Postponing it for six months or a year seems like a cheaper, smarter option, even if it puts you behind.

Right. And I think also, that makes it more feasible for you to take a job that maybe doesn't actually require bar results, because if you can do that and you mentally even commit to it for a year - okay, that's fine. Nobody's going to look askance at you for leaving a job after a year.

I agree. You need a plan about what you're going to do if you are going to take a non-bar job. I also think it's a big red flag. Don't tell someone like, "Oh, I'm taking this bar. I'm very sure I'm going to pass." You don't to worry

about that. Yeah, you never say that. Anyone can fail. Yeah,

don't ever say that. People say that. Don't make any promises. But I do think being upfront about your plan actually makes you look better

"I am taking this bar exam, and I am currently studying." Make it sound like you're taking the whole thing seriously, I think sounds better than trying to hide anything.

Yeah. I think the networking is probably going to be the most beneficial aspect here, more so than just randomly applying to jobs, because it's going to raise a lot of questions, and what employer is necessarily going to say, "Oh well, this person may or may not be able to do the job, but I'm going to go ahead and hire them now." It's like, no, nobody's going to do that. Lawyers are risk- averse. They're going to say, "Oh, you seem great.

Yeah, I just can't think of a reason.

Yeah. It's probably not happening. I

don't know, unless you have a special skill. For example, the one exception might be if you want to be a patent prosecutor and you have all those technical skills.

Well, to be a patent prosecutor, you don't actually need to be admitted to the bar. You need to be admitted to the patent bar. So something like that can absolutely make sense, like, "Oh, I'm admitted to the patent bar, so I can do the work. And then I'm studying for the actual bar exam, and then I could do other things as well." Something like that absolutely can make sense.

Those are the only people I know, because they do want you to have the regular bar exam later, but they'll take a big risk on you because there are not that many people who meet all the criteria for that. So, think about that, yeah.

If you happen to be eligible for admission to the patent bar, but of course if you haven't already taken the patent bar, probably too late to do that first. Yeah, so these are all things I think, it just has to make sense, and if the reality is what makes sense for you right now is really focusing on the bar exam and doing everything in your power to pass that, then that's what you should be doing.

And I know it's not the best answer that anyone wants to hear, "I really want to find a job while I'm studying." But sometimes there isn't an answer that's just, "Okay, you can do that." That's unlikely. so,

It's like, "Yeah, good luck with that." I definitely knew people who, while they were studying, were working on the side as a bartender or something. There's no shame in doing that, as long as it isn't 3:00 AM and you can't get home before then and you can't study. As long as you can find something, all kinds of things can work out. Depending on your skillsets, you've got all kinds of options these days, with Uber and dog walking and nannying and who knows what. Take your pick.

And I understand why If you're in this situation, your pride might take a hit. And it's hard. So, I would acknowledge that and just say, "Okay, this is how I'm going to have to do it. It's not all the things I wanted, but I'm going to get to where I want to get to. It's just not going to be at the exact timeline I expected to."

Well, I think there are a lot of things you can do to position yourself for a really solid job search when the time is right. So, make sure that all of your documents are super perfected. Have a really solid list of places that you want to apply that you've researched, and maybe try to do some informational interviews or think about people in your network that you know. You can have everything aligned to hit the ground absolutely running.

I totally agree. Also, have all your stuff into the bar that you need to get admitted, because there is no excuse for that. Whether or not you passed, don't let that be the thing, "Oh, it took forever to get admitted because I didn't have my moral character stuff in."

Right. And also the MPRE. If you haven't passed the MPRE, you go ahead and get that taken care of. But yeah, the moral character, absolutely. I was guilty of that my first exam. I couldn't decide where to take the bar, so my stuff was in late. And the judge I was working for wanted to have a little ceremony with me and the other clerk, and I was like, "I don't think they've signed off on my moral character yet." So he had to go make some phone calls.

Yeah. Be prepared with anything that you know you can do ahead of time and get yourself there, because hopefully you do pass.

Yeah. Basically you want the minute you find out that you passed and you open that letter, open that email, and you're like, "Okay, this is great, I can move on." All the pieces should be in place to do that as quickly as possible, so that you're not then saying, "Oh well, what should I put on my resume?" It should just be like, "Admitted to the bar, X date, done." Exactly.

I will say I get suspicious even if someone says that they passed the bar, but they're not admitted. And I look at how much time has gone by. So, that comes up too, even for people who have passed who are looking for jobs. And you need to be able to explain that.

Right. And sometimes that might just be an oversight that you don't realize that you really should just put your bar number, or at least, "Admitted in California and New York" on your resume, with a date. You start to wonder, is something going on with the moral character? What's happening? And maybe it's nothing. It might just be literally that you didn't realize.

And don't make it hard for the person to have to look you up, that you are barred.

Right, yeah, because if you're not, people are going to find out. This is all public record.

Yes. Again, you have to be honest about all of it. And it's all obvious. It really is. We're going to know.

Right. And yeah, sometimes we'll see resumes where they say they're admitted on a certain date or something and you wonder, "Well, you graduated here and then it was two years later." And again, people don't pass the exam, or maybe something else was going on, but there are ways to do it that just raise questions and ones that don't really raise the same questions.

And the worst is if they ask you directly, or they say, "Have you failed the bar?" Or you just say, "Oh, I passed the bar on X date." If they asked you have you failed the bar before, you need to answer that question honestly.

Right. And I think with anything in the legal profession, if somebody asks you directly, you need to answer the question truthfully and completely. If they don't ask you directly, then you don't have to put it out there. Like you don't need to put on your resume that it took you four times to pass the bar. But if somebody asks, tell them. And again, people understand that things happen. Everybody in the legal profession knows the bar exam is a big deal and easy to fail for anyone, at least once.

But you're absolutely right. There's a difference between lying and just not sharing information. And anyone who's a lawyer will tell you that.

Right. And the same thing we have with the moral character - you need to be honest on that, or otherwise you're going to cause yourself problems and possibly delay your application or maybe never get admitted, and that would be a disaster. So, always be honest and truthful, but don't volunteer things that you don't necessarily need to volunteer.

I totally agree. I actually think it's a good idea, if you are in one of those situations, I would have different people look at your resume and ask them if they have questions. See what stands out, because if they're like, "I would be real confused about this part", then find a way to make it not like that, I would say.

Yeah. So, I don't know. I think this is a tricky question. Maybe we didn't even really answer it to the satisfaction of the person who asked it, who maybe was hoping for better news. But I think getting your ducks in a row, getting everything ready to go, and then really focusing and making sure this is the last time you take the exam and doing whatever is necessary to get to that point, is probably ultimately going to put you in a better position than trying to do both of these things at once.

And we want to give honest advice. It's the same thing when someone's like, "Oh, I have to work in BigLaw." And I look at their stuff and I'm like, "Well, you're not going to right now."

Right, it's not going to be your first stop, at least. So

it's like, "I can't answer that question the way you want." Or, "You can apply, but I don't think you'll get any interviews. But let's talk about how you can get there eventually."

Right. I think sometimes being a little more patient and playing the long game can be more effective than trying to do everything at once, but then doing everything poorly. Because what if you distract yourself and then you fail again? That's just not going to be great.

No. And this happens to people even who have set jobs, and then like you said, they get another chance to take it. I hate that. And I always say, "You may need to take unpaid leave." Or some firms are like, "You have to take this amount of time off." Do that. Take that time off. Do not try to work. It's not impressive. And failing the second time you're going to lose your job. So, your priority is always passing the bar, even if you have a job.

No, that's so true. And sometimes I talk to people and they say, "Oh well, it's so expensive to hire a tutor." I'm like, "What is it going to cost you to not have this job? Come on, get it together. Take the unpaid leave, pay for somebody to help you. You are talking about losing a very highly paid job because you didn't take the time and spend the money to pass this test. Come on."

And most firms really do recognize that. They will find someone to fill in for you, where you need to be responsible about it and make sure that everyone knows what you need and when you will be off. But you should be off and the bar is your priority.

Yeah, and I think the firms are very clear with people about that. And sometimes I feel like they just do not hear them. I hear people saying, "Oh well, they told me I could have a month off." Sometimes even a month paid. And they're like, "I think I'm only going to take two weeks." I'm like, "Are you out of your mind?"

No, I've had conversations with people where I say, "This isn't actually optional. We're not having a conversation where you're deciding how much time. This is what you're taking off."

Right, yeah. I mean, I think you should take any time you can get, basically, because again, it's a short-term hit for a much longer-term gain. And at that point, if you lose your job and you still have to take the exam again, that is when things start getting really ugly.

Absolutely.

So, don't put yourself in that position. Do everything you can to pass, and hopefully then you get a job at the end of all this. Yeah, it is a tricky place to be and we sympathize with you, and nobody wants you to be in this position, but I think you've just got to deal with the reality.

Mm-hmm. I agree.

Alright. Any final thoughts?

My final thoughts are, you probably shouldn't be applying for jobs while you're studying for the bar, unless you, like we've talked about, have a special skill or specific reason you need to. But to me, it just takes your focus away. And just do some light networking. And have your plan for the future. But this really isn't going to help you. That's what I would say.

No, I think that's hard to hear, but I do think it's probably right, is that even though you want to be doing all the things at once, probably not doing all the things at once is going to result in a better end product. Exactly. If you enjoyed this episode of the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast, please take a second to leave a review and rating on your favorite listening app. We'd really appreciate it. And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss anything. For career help, you can check out CareerDicta.