Lee Burgess (2): Welcome to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast. Wonder why people fail the bar exam? Today we have two more of our Bar Exam Toolbox tutors here to give their perspectives. Your Bar Exam Toolbox hosts are Alison Monahan and Lee Burgess, that's me. We're here to demystify the bar exam experience, so you can study effectively, stay sane, and hopefully pass and move on with your life.
We're the co-creators of the Law School Toolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the career-related website CareerDicta. Alison also runs The Girl's Guide to Law School. If you enjoy this show, please leave a review on your favorite listening app, and check out our sister podcast, the Law School Toolbox podcast. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can reach us via the contact form on BarExamToolbox.com, and we'd love to hear from you. And with that, let's get started.
Welcome back to the Bar Exam Toolbox podcast. Wonder why people fail the bar exam? Today we have two more of our Bar Exam Toolbox tutors here to give their perspectives. Hi, Nicola. Thanks for joining me.
Hi Lee, it's a pleasure to be here.
Okay. So, my first question for you is, as a tutor that helps students prep for the UBE bar exam, why do you think most people fail the bar?
So, I was thinking about this, and I think the students who fail the bar really fall into two categories. And it's either, "I didn't study enough hours"... You have to have the time and be willing to put in the time to study. But the other category of students are the students who study ineffectively, and we talk a lot with students about passive studying. I run into a lot of students who spend time reading outlines, or reviewing outlines, or watching hours and hours of video lectures.
And so, I think most students who fail the bar exam fall into one of those two camps, where it's, "I didn't spend enough hours studying", or really, "I didn't spend enough hours actively engaging with the material and doing practice questions. I maybe took a lot of time sitting at my desk, but what I was doing during that time wasn't very effective."
Yeah. We often call it "making yourself uncomfortable". If you're not uncomfortable...
Yes.
...you're not doing the right kind of studying, because the right kind of studying doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel validating.
No.
It feels like really hard work.
Right, that's exactly right. It feels like really hard work, and usually involves doing practice questions before you're ready, which kind of goes to, like you said, feeling uncomfortable. Maybe I don't quite know this rule, but doing these practice questions about it is going to help me learn it. And I have to be willing to get stuff wrong now, so that I get it right on the exam.
So, if you just found out that you didn't pass, what do you think is the most important thing that someone should consider when retaking the bar exam?
Well, I think that this goes back to sort of a self-evaluation of two things. I guess you can get your self-evaluation from two different sources. A lot of jurisdictions offer detailed score reports, or they'll even release your essay answers and performance test answers to you, which I know it can be kind of painful if you fail the bar. A lot of students don't want to look at those, "I don't want to see what I wrote, I know I did horribly on the essays."
But you can actually get some really good information about what may have happened to you on the exam from looking at those past answers. And you usually have to order them. So I would say, order your answers if you can, do that self-evaluation of your actual performance on the test. And then the other part of the self-evaluation goes back to the study habits. What was I doing when I was studying? And I think we have a lot of great questions that we ask students.
I get students' self-evaluation forms when I get paired with a new student. And there're a lot of really good questions in that, like, what percentage of your time did you spend watching video lectures? What percentage of your time did you spend doing flashcards? What percentage did you spend doing practice questions? And so, I think answering those specific questions for yourself and saying, "Oh, okay.
Doing flashcards was really effective because it helped me memorize the rules, whereas reading my outline was maybe something I could do quickly to get a general lay of the land, but I don't need to spend hours doing that." So I think it's that self-evaluation process, both of your prior scores and answers, and then also your study habits that is what's going to help you make a plan for your retake.
Yeah. I even think when somebody gets those answers, sometimes it can be super intimidating to go through them. So, even if all you do is you take a couple of different color highlighters and just highlight all your issue statements, and then highlight all your rule statements, and then highlight your analysis section, and highlight your conclusion, or if it needs to be written in the CREAC form, you can highlight it that way.
But just starting to break it down for yourself, because sometimes you can do that and then you say, "Oh, there is no analysis section. Oops." But sometimes just like having the green highlighter will show you the big mistake. So, you can kind of do activities to make it a little bit more approachable to go through those answers. But you have to take that yucky medicine and just force yourself to go through them.
Yeah. And even having a second set of eyes. I know I review past answers for students, and sometimes that can be helpful. Someone you trust, and then also, yeah, having a method for doing it yourself, for sure.
Alright. Every tutor has this one thing that you find yourself saying over and over again to your students. So, what is your one thing that you say over and over again to your students?
So, Lee, you kind of hit on it already when you were saying I go through with the highlighter, and I have my issue statement, then I have my rule statement, and then I realize, "Oh, there's no analysis section." And I've actually had students joke with me about it before, because when I'm giving written feedback on essay answers, or I repeat it when we go over answers during meetings, is, again, you don't get points for summarizing the facts.
I find a lot of students, once they get past the initial like, "Okay, I'm actively studying now, I know the rules, but my essay questions, I'm still not scoring enough points on the essays." It's usually the missing piece, I think, is the analysis section.
And instead of having an actual analysis where they're explaining why they reached the conclusion and linking the rule with the facts, they end up just summarizing the relevant facts and leave the bar examiner's mind of like, "Yes, you're pointing out a relevant fact, but you're not telling me why that fact matters." And so, I think it's closing that logical loop and making sure there's a true analysis section in there.
And like I said, I've had students joke around with me because they'll give feedback where it's like, again, you don't get points for summarizing the facts. This is not an analysis. And I'll highlight, "This is a summary of the facts." I had one student last time and I was like, "Good, I'm glad you're making fun of that, because when you're writing your essays on the exam, I want you to hear my voice saying, 'You don't get points for summarizing the facts.'"
Yeah. I always tell people that you don't need to go to law school to summarize facts. Anyone can summarize facts, right? Anyone. We went to law school to think like lawyers, and analysis is thinking like a lawyer. That's what we're trained to do. So if you miss out on putting that on the page, that's really what they want to see, in theory, since the bar exam is showing that we are prepared to be practicing lawyers. But that is the piece. You didn't have to go to law school to summarize facts.
Anyone can
do that. Right.
That's always the thing I go back to, is, I'm like, "You spent all this money and all this time going to law school. Show that you can think like a lawyer. That's really what they're testing."
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Well, thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today...
Sure.
...and sharing your tips for bar retakers.
Sure. Lee Burgess (2): Next up, we have Tina!
Thanks, Tina, for joining me today.
Thank you for having me.
Alright, so you help folks study for the California bar, primarily. So, why do you think most people fail the bar?
So, I've been doing this tutoring now for about four years. I kind of feel like people fall into different categories, in terms of the students that I've seen. I definitely have had a few students that I think they were just naturally smart people that tended to cram during law school. And the main reason they failed is because I think they just didn't take the bar as seriously as they should have, because bar studying is a marathon.
It needs a lot of discipline throughout and consistency throughout. So, a lot of these people, that sort of naturally get things and never have had to work that hard, I think sometimes the bar comes out of nowhere and hits them a little bit.
Yeah.
Then I think there's another category of people that are, I would say, really good at the discipline. They usually have done an organized program of some kind, and they did almost everything they were supposed to do, but somehow, something just didn't really click for them, whether it's memorization didn't really click for them, or they never really got what bar essay writing is like. So, I think some of these programs that they went through are very, very heavy on just passive studying.
You're watching a lot of lectures, you're reading a lot of outlines. There isn't as much focus on pen-to-paper type of practice. And that part, they never really got. So, part of it is just not having feedback throughout the whole process. So, they went through all the motions like they're supposed to do, but during the bar, they just weren't able to execute at the level that they needed to in order to pass.
For these people, I think, they just really need to figure out a more individualized plan, in terms of what works for them to really get memorization down. And then learning how to write a bar essay, which is kind of like a formula, but you just need to do it, and have feedback about what you're doing wrong. And then I think definitely, I've had a couple of other students, where and I think these are probably the toughest ones to have - it's the ones with just really severe test anxiety.
I've definitely even had students where they go through the whole process of studying and have just walked out the bar. Those are probably the hardest students I feel like I've had, because there's not much you can do during the study period to help them. They can do everything they're supposed to do, and then come test day and it all falls apart.
Yeah. It shows how important it is to take care of yourself and really work on being the best whole person that you can be showing up to the test. If you're struggling with anxiety, then make sure that you have support in that category of your life, because if you show up and the anxiety is what shows up in the room, you can't perform your best. You're not going to be able to think clearly.
Or then you make a choice like walking out, and then you don't even have the opportunity to kind of right the ship. I think those situations are so heartbreaking, but there is just kind of an honesty about how you're going to help yourself be your best self when you show up.
Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I think mental state, mental health, whatever you want to call it, is such a huge part of bar studying, because it's such a marathon process, for sure.
It really is, I know. So, what do you think is the most important thing someone should consider when sitting again for the test to retaking the bar?
I definitely think kind of what we just talked about - making sure you're absolutely mentally prepared to do this. Especially if you fail the bar once, it's a lot harder the second time around, right? The burnout comes a lot easier, and it's just tedious to have to do it again. And a lot of times, if you are taking it again, you've moved on from full-time bar study. You have a job to balance, or something like that.
So, I think just making sure that you have the mental capacity, and also that you've devoted the time you need in your schedule to devote to this task, because even the second time around, it's not something you can just pick up on the weekends or anything like that.
You really need to make sure that you have time, mentally and in your schedule, especially also because almost every student I've ever had has had some sort of life issue come up, whether it's like having to move unexpectedly, a death in the family, something comes up. You just have to be mentally in that place, where you're putting aside the time and effort and the mental capacity to devote to it.
And think of it as sometimes putting deposits in the bank, because life happens, right? I mean, life goes on. So, if you're steadily putting these kind of steady deposits in, then if a weekend disappears or you get sick for a week, it's not going to take down the whole thing. But if you're not doing that kind of steady preparation, and then you keep pushing the big boulder down the road...
I'm trying to see how many metaphors I can use, but if you're pushing everything down the road, but then you're a month out and then something happens, you can't come back from that.
No, there's no more space in your schedule to come back from that. And that's the thing - it always happens, though. Every single student, I think, goes through that, right? And then it comes to the place where we're sort of triaging. And then I think that's where the mental health component also comes in, because when something unexpected happens, that's when the stress level goes up, the anxiety level goes up.
And it's really important to be at a good place mentally so that you can take a step back and be like, "This is not the end of the world." We can trigger out what's prioritized to get back on track, whatever getting back on track might look for you at that point in time.
Totally. And what is the one thing you find yourself saying to students over and over again?
I think this is all going to circle back to the mental state, mental health component again, but I think it's just, try not to sweat the small stuff, if that makes sense. I have had so many students that when they go through our program, they have a strict schedule, right?
And they're super worried about making sure to check out every single task and all of that stuff, which at the beginning, I think is very important, because we want to make sure that they know that these are all important tasks. But at some point during the study time, it always happens that they get off track. When that happens, it's not the end of the world, and we're going to figure out what we need to do.
It might be things like trying to figure out what works for you better, in terms of study. What tasks can we just mark off? Remove it from your sight, so you're not worrying about it. Because like you said, when you're not in a good mental state, that's when the spiraling happens, and then you become unproductive. Even if you are studying like you're supposed to, you're just almost checking out tasks and not getting anything out of it. So, I think that is probably the thing.
Take a breath, we're going to figure this out, and then we'll just go through and figure out what we're prioritizing, mark off things that we're not going to worry about. The other thing I hear from my students all the time is, a lot of them just want to know throughout, "Am I going to pass?
Am I going to pass?" And they're very focused on that, and I feel like also trying to get them away from that, because at the end of the day, what matters is if you are studying and memorizing the best that you can in the time that you have, I feel like worrying about, "Am I at the place where I'm going to pass or not?" is a distraction, a mental distraction for them. It's completely understandable, I've been there too, but I'm constantly repeating myself for them.
Try not to do that because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they're all going to take the test anyways.
It's true. And you're really just like giving it to the graders. I mean, we have very little control over exactly what happens, right? All you can do is present your best self and your best work product, and then hope for the best. There're no guarantees.
Yes, exactly. And it's very human to want that guarantee, from a tutor or from anybody. When students start to go down the Reddit black holes, we'll call them...
yeah. Just stay off of Reddit.
Exactly, I say that a lot. I also say that a lot, because I think most students will do best when they're just focused on their own studying, trying to figure out "What do I need to do?", versus any sort of comparison with anybody else, or trying to figure out these external factors that you have really no control over.
Yeah. Oh, that's a good one: Stay off of Reddit. I like that. We'll that to the list. It's true. Sometimes I go on Reddit to see what people are talking about, and it's anxiety-inducing to me, and I'm not studying for the bar exam.
And you're not even taking the bar!
I know. It's been a long time since I sat for the bar. I still find it anxiety- inducing.
I completely, completely agree. And you've probably heard the same thing. I have so many students that talk about all these essay predictions and stuff and how accurate they are. And I'm like, "If they really were that accurate, why are we even here?" Right?
I know, it's true.
But it's kind of crazy, the kind of things you hear people read about.
I always say I don't like to gamble, and so I don't gamble on anything. And people swore on my bar exam that you would never see remedies. It was told us during the bar exam lectures that we did. I mean, they said it was on everything. And I am not a gambling person. And so, I took it when it was three days - the morning of the third day, I knew that they hadn't tested it yet and I did take it in law school.
So I spent my morning with coffee reading my remedies outline, and what was question number four, but a full remedies question? And I was feeling so good about myself because I like, "I don't gamble." And I had friends who chose not to study remedies, based on the predictions. And that was a huge mistake, and it's just not worth it.
It is not. I completely agree. Because bar grading is kind of like a black box in some ways, but we all know that if you write something down, something that remotely looks like an answer, you're going to get points that you need no matter what, right? It's better off than being completely clueless about any subject all.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much for your time, Tina. This was great.
Thank you. It's always fun to talk about the bar.
We'll talk to you soon. I know. Bye.
Bye, Lee.
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